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ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ.
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If an athlete displays a rainbow flag at an ITU race, either printed on their tri-suit, carrying one across the finish line or any other way of displaying it, they will be DQ'd.

https://www.outsports.com/...oZo2FeE1QKdUOE_wDYgA

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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Makes me want to race ITU just to get banned

Team Zoot So Cal
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Funny, the thought that the ITU would be beholden to special interests never occurred to me. Naive, I guess. And sad.

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Gotta “clean up” the races before worlds in the Middle East.

I get where they’re coming from, as stupid as it is. They’re not a big enough organization to piss off potential host countries and sponsors so they end up doing stuff like this. Even if a lot of people are going to disagree with it.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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ITU have some right backward ideas in their rules at times.

Never forgetting their are another self serving sports administration based in Switzerland... a near-police-state (really !) and still home to lots of nazi stolen gold that they REALLY don't like anyine to mention.

Morals ? Not an ounce of it.

At least with WTC we all know their are in it to make money, they are a business and don't hide that.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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BAN! DQ! BURN! Rainbows around them legs!

Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [BobAjobb] [ In reply to ]
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BobAjobb wrote:
ITU have some right backward ideas in their rules at times.

Never forgetting their are another self serving sports administration based in Switzerland... a near-police-state (really !) and still home to lots of nazi stolen gold that they REALLY don't like anyine to mention.

Morals ? Not an ounce of it.

At least with WTC we all know their are in it to make money, they are a business and don't hide that.

Hey, I think more than gold there is a lot of stolen/dirty money that made its way into the Swiss banking system over time, which allows for a strong financial platform that helps to underpin a strong economy, but that's a different story entirely.

Why did ITU have to do this?
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:

Why did ITU have to do this?

Who knows? Scrolling through the ITU race venues it covers lots of very different countries so it's hard to make anything other than a guess. Not making a direct link here but just as an example of how a very different culture can have very odd restrictions - Chinese media blurring ears. I guess the ITU may just of taken legal advice on global issues and taken very conservative advice. I used to work in releasing software for a global company and the legal advice given was crazy by any rational measure.

Stopping race pros waving a flag is one thing. I'd of thought there are age groupers with tattoos, let alone the ones who will take this as a challenge and make a point.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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You gotta wonder how much pressure on the lTU from russia/ussr had to do with this, as that totalitarian country is totally and weirdly obsessed with gay people (and not in a good way ... )

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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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How many ITU athletes were even actively doing this in the first place? Is this now going to turn into a Streisand effect situation?

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Callin'] [ In reply to ]
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It has not banned rainbow flags in particular. “Athletes will avoid displaying any kind of demonstration of political, religious, sexual orientation or racial propaganda.”

This means rainbow flags, but also homophobic flags, nazi flags, Ku Klux Klan flags, etc. Personally I think it makes sense.

You can't just say “Athletes will avoid displaying any kind of demonstration of political, religious, sexual orientation or racial propaganda, except for rainbow flags".

Unless somebody has insight I don't see why it was done to ban rainbow flags in particular.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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Hmm. No religious propoganda either. I wonder what they’ll be looking for? And what if religious symbols are part of national flag?

Seems like no limits on any corporate propoganda.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [mortysct] [ In reply to ]
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mortysct wrote:

BAN! DQ! BURN! Rainbows around them legs!

Yeah, this part confuses me... Are we sure the author of that article wasn't making their own interpretation? I would think the ITU knows what rainbow bands on the uniform means. Perhaps the author didn't know?

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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The ITU knows the difference and knows a world championship rainbow from a pride rainbow.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
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Last edited by: RowToTri: Jan 19, 19 8:24
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [PowerPlay] [ In reply to ]
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PowerPlay wrote:
Hmm. No religious propoganda either. I wonder what they’ll be looking for?
This guy would be in trouble.



"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
Gotta “clean up” the races before worlds in the Middle East.

I get where they’re coming from, as stupid as it is. They’re not a big enough organization to piss off potential host countries and sponsors so they end up doing stuff like this. Even if a lot of people are going to disagree with it.

this was a breathtakingly stupid move. who was going to run down the finish chute in abu dhabi waiving a rainbow flag? but now? after this? i don't know how many rainbow top tube stickers the ITU just sold, but i know they just sold one to me.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Guess I can't bring my Pineland flag.

Viva la Pineland!

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm gay for Vincent Luis!!!

Slowman wrote:
Grant.Reuter wrote:
Gotta “clean up” the races before worlds in the Middle East.

I get where they’re coming from, as stupid as it is. They’re not a big enough organization to piss off potential host countries and sponsors so they end up doing stuff like this. Even if a lot of people are going to disagree with it.


this was a breathtakingly stupid move. who was going to run down the finish chute in abu dhabi waiving a rainbow flag? but now? after this? i don't know how many rainbow top tube stickers the ITU just sold, but i know they just sold one to me.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Alvin Tostig] [ In reply to ]
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Alvin Tostig wrote:
PowerPlay wrote:
Hmm. No religious propoganda either. I wonder what they’ll be looking for?
This guy would be in trouble.



This sort of thing is exactly what I was thinking.
Not particularly Rooney (as he can get himself into trouble for many other things all by himself) but any athlete with a cross on a chain. St Christopher ? Cresent ? Elephant based god in a gold ring. Too much Orange in a kit. Etc.


As to WHY... almost aleays its related to who's paying the dirty lucre.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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That's fucked up. It also means that you can't race ITU if you wear any kind of cross, half moon, yinyang and what else. Doubt it they'll dq anyone for that though. What about Sanders (there he is), doesn't he have a big cross tattooed? I guess he will never ever have ITU then. Etc..

I seem to remember Dan wrote a piece recently about growing triathlon by stimulating a diverse group of participants, which definitely is much needed. Guess ITU begs to differ. Selectively.

NO
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Guess I’m in trouble if I qualify for World team again.... why.... and what in gay hell??

https://www.newsobserver.com/...article81403757.html
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
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RUNNER86 wrote:
Guess I’m in trouble if I qualify for World team again.... why.... and what in gay hell??

https://www.newsobserver.com/...article81403757.html

that article about you? you're rainbow tutu man?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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If you read the detail this is not against the rainbow flag in particular but against any religious, political or sexual symbols.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
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I actually am in rainbow colors and rainbow Mohawk because my foundation is named Dream In Color and it had nothing to do with my sexuality or representing gay rights. I race to raise money for people fighting cancer and AIDS. It is society that made it a political issue, especially in my state of NC, so I found myself explaining more about HB2 and gay rights and educating folks about both issues and about my foundation. I don’t mind educating people because it is needed and I do happen to be gay, but my intent of the rainbow colors was for the name Dream In COLOR.
I actually cut the Mohawk off for a little break this winter and plan on growing it back. I was going to change up colors to avoid people mistaking it for a gay rights statement, now after seeing that ITU thinks this is okay, I will go back to rainbow and WILL also use it again this year to educate people that discrimination is wrong. So... what do they decide to do if I cross finish line at an ITU event or qualify to represent a Team USA at Worlds?.... I’ll keep you posted!
Bit of advice... if you allow or support discrimination against anyone, then they are coming for you next...
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
that totalitarian country is totally and weirdly obsessed with gay people (and not in a good way ... )

The people who want to wear rainbow flags on their race kit are just as weirdly obsessed with gay people, but on the opposite side of the equation. I would characterize it as "good" or "bad", just completely irrelevant and obtuse to an ITU triathlon.

People are completely misrepresenting this. Rainbow flags, "Saturdays are for the boys" flags (not an gay innuendo;), Democrate flags, MAGA flags, confederate flags, (any flag but your own country) are not allowed on ITU race kits. All they are doing is reinforcing an existing rule that they were looking the other way on, and it is a completely reasonable one that these are athletic events not political protests or sex parties.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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I did read article and understand that... but again... you allow discrimination against anyone they are coming for your rights next! Here in NC you can use your so called religious rights to discriminate against folks you THINK are gay and your business can refuse service to them based on your religious belief. How do you know someone is gay? Don’t we think those folks could also use this laws loophole to discriminate against blacks, women, or anyone they want and say it was because they THOUGHT these minorities were gay
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Yes Dan I am person in article
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Ignorant comment.... never raced for sex party but if your in then I’m in
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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ecce-homo wrote:
If you read the detail this is not against the rainbow flag in particular but against any religious, political or sexual symbols.

the first race on the ITU WTS circuit this year will be in abu dhabi. what we'll see are women racing in garments that are an outward expression of their religion, and this will not only be allowed, but celebrated. meanwhile, someone wearing an expression of sexual preference - in solidarity with his or her discriminated status - is subject to a DQ.

the ITU is celebrated for its stand on gender equality. and on challenged athlete equality. but it just fumbled the ball on this one.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
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RUNNER86 wrote:
Yes Dan I am person in article

alrighty. well, i am not gay. but i'm your brother on this one. i haven't been this angry in awhile.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, sounds like enforcement of an existing rule to prevent political posturing at their events. Unless you're one of those that have to get your underwear wadded up about everything, there's not much to see here.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
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So you would be OK if someone wore a nazi, ku-klux-klan, jihad or homophobic flags? As I read it, this is not against gays but against showing political, racial or sexual symbols in ITU competition. And I am not comparing the nazi flag to the rainbow flag, it is just to show examples of what this law is forbidding. Why everyone is interpreting it is against gay rights is beyond my imagination. Unless, as I said in my first email, someone has clear ITU insight on this that prove the contrary.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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ripple wrote:
Yep, sounds like enforcement of an existing rule to prevent political posturing at their events. Unless you're one of those that have to get your underwear wadded up about everything, there's not much to see here.

Ni. Its the ITU kowtowing to the Abu Dhabi authorities in order to take their money. Simples.
And it sucks.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you Dan... the hypocrisy is deafening.... this whole support of Middle East and that’s not an issue for them or Ironman because of money... so turn blind eye, is disgusting. Now I will do this in protest so if I’m DQ’d then maybe it will get attention on how ridiculous it is that ITU stepped into this issue
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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Those are racist symbols... the rainbow flag actually represents freedom, peace and love for EVERYONE, not just the gay community, so it embraces all people and is not offensive or racist in any way shape or form.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Why a women's triathlon kit is a religious manifestation goes well beyond where my imagination can fly to. There are women racing triathlon in the ITU circuit from, Catholic, Protestant, Taoist, Confucionist and Hinduist countries, as well as at the minimum, plus atheist and agnostic women racing from those or other countries as well. Is that kit an outward representation of all the above religions and non religions, or just some of them? I'd love to hear what holy writings from any religion talk about triathlon garment. It would be a great topic for a new thread.

In addition, Abu-Dhabi (same country than Dubai, Emirates) was the season opener a couple of years ago and nothing happened that I can recall.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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ecce-homo wrote:
Why everyone is interpreting it is against gay rights is beyond my imagination.

let me expand your imagination. i've had a busy morning, trying to get to the bottom of how this rule got amended. mind, i've never heard of anyone getting DQd or warned because of any outward expression of religion on one's person.

what you're saying is, someone who races in an ITU race for the FCA (fellowship of christian athletes) should be DQd. you know there's a club called TRI4HIM. It's on their jerseys. want another half dozen examples? heck, you'll find them here on this forum. all on jerseys. all emblazoned on pop up tents at races.

terry davis said the prerace prayer before every wildflower triathlon. pretty much mandatory unless you were willing to miss the start. should USAT deny his sanction?

how far do you want to go with this? how many examples do you want before it becomes crystal fucking clear that this is only about the rainbow flag?

mind, the only part of any of this that's ever really bothered anyone is that everyone is obliged to participate in a particular religious observance prior to an event. and the ITU has never said a thing about that. and, that's okay with me, because if i was in egypt and the RD wanted to hold some sort of islamic observance prior to the race, fine. it's his race. i'm a visitor. i owe him my observance of his religious conviction. so, none of us in triathlon, since the beginning - and i've been a triathlete a decade before the ITU existed - have gotten our panties in a wad over individual expression.

just, let's not pretend that the outlawing of this one silent, singular, and rare, show of solidarity with a disenfranchised minority is simply on par with our sport's behavior toward other similar outward demonstrations of religion, minority status, or political conviction.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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See you all at Duathlon Nationals in April.... in full rainbow and Mohawk will be back. I now am racing in protest instead of representing people with cancer.... good job ITU and society for making gays a political issue. Cmon folks... what if we turned this around and heterosexual folks were the minority’s
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
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Dan, if you decide to help bring attention to this then I would love to help in any way I can. Thank you for seeing US!
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
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RUNNER86 wrote:
Dan, if you decide to help bring attention to this then I would love to help in any way I can. Thank you for seeing US!

i'm just warming up.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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You don't owe anyone any participation in a religious observation prior to a race, I don't give a shit if you're racing in downtown Cairo, Jerusalem, anywhere. Any such event or observation should be quite clearly optional and never compulsory. People need to get politics, religion, and agendas out of sports, especially sports like "adult participation events" where there will be people of all backgrounds and convicitions. It only serves to cause issues. You either can't allow any or you have to allow them all. It's easiest if people would just focus on the task at hand.. racing. Or participating, whatever.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
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I can understand prohibiting carrying flags other than national flags and placing flags (other than national flags) or other words/images on uniforms, but if the ITU prohibits display of jewelry or tattoos with certain images or words that is going too far. The question is whether the current rule could lead to the latter.
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Jan 19, 19 14:06
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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ripple wrote:
You don't owe anyone any participation in a religious observation prior to a race, I don't give a shit if you're racing in downtown Cairo, Jerusalem, anywhere. Any such event or observation should be quite clearly optional and never compulsory. People need to get politics, religion, and agendas out of sports, especially sports like "adult participation events" where there will be people of all backgrounds and convicitions. It only serves to cause issues. You either can't allow any or you have to allow them all. It's easiest if people would just focus on the task at hand.. racing. Or participating, whatever.

i don't disagree with you. i just don't think this rises to the level of a lavender room food fight. i was at a gravel race last year and i saw a guy after the race with a MAGA hat. oh, the horror! then he and i had a great conversation, and we emerged friends (tho i don't share his political persuasion). i believe what you wrote: "easiest if people would just focus on the task at hand." there is way more that binds us in sport than separates us. best to focus on that, and to not stumble over idiosyncrasies.

which is why the ITU's rule change here causes us WAY more problems than it solves: it's a solution to a pretty much nonexistent problem. it simply highlights the fact our sport discriminates based on sexual preference in certain countries, and our solution to that is to memorialize in the rules the closeting of one's gay status.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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Would love to see how they respond to the rainbow tattoo around my arm.... I have always told folks how inclusive triathlon is and that we welcome everyone, never thought my sport would become about discrimination. Who cares if a rainbow flag is run down the finish cute.... again it represents freedom and inclusion of ALL people, it’s not a political symbol or racist symbol. Why is it okay for our country flags to be displayed then? What if the American flag represents hatred to some folks due to our current political mess due to Frump?
Again... you allow discrimination against one person, they are coming for you next!
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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Mark Lemmon wrote:
I can understand prohibiting carrying flags.

you realize this is done at the finish of almost every race? by the winner? including in the olympics?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
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Being gay is not political.... heterosexuals with crazy religious views want it to be
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I can buy that.. but then if I have a group of people that all race in kits and have warm up gear, t shirts, hats etc. that say "marriage=man+woman" as an example, then that's my prerogative and I would expect the same respect that I show my fellow athletes who I know are gay and want to display that. I know I wouldn't get that same courtesy, God knows why, but what's good for one is good for the other.

Our tie that binds is sport, I wish we'd all keep it that way. We're hung up on the fringe issues and ignoring major issues that affect us all, left, right, black, white, dem, gop, and we hate each other because the radicals are loud and obnoxious and suck everyone in to an all or nothing proposition.

Sigh.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
If an athlete displays a rainbow flag at an ITU race, either printed on their tri-suit, carrying one across the finish line or any other way of displaying it, they will be DQ'd.

https://www.outsports.com/...oZo2FeE1QKdUOE_wDYgA

The article is misleading and takes what the actual rule says above and beyond. Here is what the rule actually says:

“Avoid displaying any kind of demonstration of political, religious,
sexual orientation or racial propaganda;”

With “sexual orientation” recently added. Maybe you should do more research before posting this to the forum.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Anton84] [ In reply to ]
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Why sexual orientation.... how is that political or offensive?
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
that totalitarian country is totally and weirdly obsessed with gay people (and not in a good way ... )


The people who want to wear rainbow flags on their race kit are just as weirdly obsessed with gay people, but on the opposite side of the equation. I would characterize it as "good" or "bad", just completely irrelevant and obtuse to an ITU triathlon.


I can't say much about the technical details of various crazy ITU rulings, but to say anyone with a logo or symbol on their kit is 'weirdly obsessed' is, in my view, more than a huge stretch. People wear on their kits and bodies sponsor logos, corporate logos, club logos, team names/logos, national flags, military symbols, religious symbols, little pictures of kittens and flowers, the list goes on and on.

Are all of these athletes "obsessed"?
I think not.
And, sure, I can see the ITU banning on a case by case basis certain limited logos or symbols that clearly espouse hatred or violence or genocide, but to worry about little rainbow flags and similar things, that is just plain 'effing kooky.

Somehow, I smell corrupt russian influence in this BS ...
And those totalitarians ARE truly obsessed with (and profoundly frightened by) gay people. Especially that darling of ours, Putin ...

Greg @ dsw

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Jan 19, 19 12:59
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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ripple wrote:
I can buy that.. but then if I have a group of people that all race in kits and have warm up gear, t shirts, hats etc. that say "marriage=man+woman" as an example, then that's my prerogative and I would expect the same respect that I show my fellow athletes who I know are gay and want to display that. I know I wouldn't get that same courtesy, God knows why, but what's good for one is good for the other.

Go race in AL / MS /FL / LA, your group would be one of many. I am a white heterosexual male, and I'm effectively a closet atheist. I don't talk religion but I'm pretty much the only one with his eyes open during pre- race prayer.
I am not sure if one could safely do certain races here in rainbow. Safely as in, unharmed.
However, the guy that shows up to races in Mississippi in full Confederate body paint is warmly welcomed.

Just to make clear, I'm not really too stressed out about it all, I'm bigger, stronger, faster and smarter plus I'm too old to get a headache. What ITU is doing is making official what I describe above. But they do it to a group of people that already face continuous discrimination. There are very bad historical examples of this kind of actions.

NO
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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ripple wrote:
I can buy that.. but then if I have a group of people that all race in kits and have warm up gear, t shirts, hats etc. that say "marriage=man+woman" as an example, then that's my prerogative and I would expect the same respect that I show my fellow athletes who I know are gay and want to display that. I know I wouldn't get that same courtesy, God knows why, but what's good for one is good for the other.

Our tie that binds is sport, I wish we'd all keep it that way. We're hung up on the fringe issues and ignoring major issues that affect us all, left, right, black, white, dem, gop, and we hate each other because the radicals are loud and obnoxious and suck everyone in to an all or nothing proposition.

Sigh.

i think the operative difference - if you want to ban stuff from races - are expressions that enfranchise versus those that prohibit or discriminate. speech that embraces versus hates. excludes versus includes. and, not just speech, but behavior.

accordingly, the ITU has been on the right side of history on women's inclusion. women's equality. women's access. so, just insert for "women's" any other group, in any country, that is widely recognized by an educated and illuminated society as being disenfranchised. here in america - and in most enlightened societies - we hold that you should not be discriminated against because of your color, gender, religion, physical ability, or sexual preference. the ITU has pretty much appropriated that ethic. except as regards sexual preference, apparently.

so, let's not conflate "freedom of speech" with the ethic the ITU has rightly adopted, which is, sport draws us together. sport is about inclusion. when religious expressions are okay but sexual preference expressions are not, i think it's fair to ask why that is.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Alabama Viking] [ In reply to ]
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Alabama Viking wrote:
What ITU is doing is making official what I describe above. But they do it to a group of people that already face continuous discrimination. There are very bad historical examples of this kind of actions.

x1000

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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think it's very political to speak up for human rights for all people. It's just a given

ecce-homo wrote:
If you read the detail this is not against the rainbow flag in particular but against any religious, political or sexual symbols.

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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ripple] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ripple wrote:
I can buy that.. but then if I have a group of people that all race in kits and have warm up gear, t shirts, hats etc. that say "marriage=man+woman" as an example, then that's my prerogative and I would expect the same respect that I show my fellow athletes who I know are gay and want to display that. I know I wouldn't get that same courtesy, God knows why, but what's good for one is good for the other.

Have to disagree with you here. Displaying the rainbow flag is an expression of wanting all people to be able to live with their sexual orientation out in the open and not have to worry about discrimination or repercussions. They aren't spreading a message of trying to infringe on anyone's rights or remove those rights from them.

That "marriage = man + woman" message is explicitly trying to deny the right to marry to gay people. Not all messages are equal in their intent, and so not all messages should be treated equally.

As ITU is an international governing body, I have no idea what their obligations are towards allowing or disallowing certain forms of expression, but at best this is entirely tone deaf on the part of the ITU.
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
i've had a busy morning, trying to get to the bottom of how this rule got amended. mind, i've never heard of anyone getting DQd or warned because of any outward expression of religion on one's person.


Were you able to find this out?

Who is/was the ITU is targeting here?

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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Jan 19, 19 13:19
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Am I the only that finds it Alanis Morrissette ironic that a guy with homo in his name is the one defending this ITU rule the most?

Yes, I'm aware his username is a latin phrase, a supposed famous religious quote, and a painting. Nevertheless....



Yes, it's a stupid rule and one ITU will likely regret.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Slowman wrote:
ecce-homo wrote:
let me expand your imagination. i've had a busy morning, trying to get to the bottom of how this rule got amended. mind, i've never heard of anyone getting DQd or warned because of any outward expression of religion on one's person.


Were you able to find this out? Who is/was the ITU is targeting here?

emails have gone out to 3 people. no answers back. it's a saturday. but i seriously doubt all of those emails have remained unread. i also emailed to jack bristow, the fellow highlighted in the outsports article. he and i have traded a half-dozen emails this morning. so, jack is certainly on it. were i to guess, the ITU is not going to answer me until they have had an internal discussion about this, figure out their path forward, and have their messaging ready. i don't know, maybe i'm wrong, but i'm shocked if there isn't a 3-alarm fire drill in there right now.

i have my suspicions. nevertheless, i have a lot of respect for the ITU. i just think they made a spectacular miscalculation. the optics are atrocious. this is big medicine. they're going to have to walk this way back.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
i have my suspicions. nevertheless, i have a lot of respect for the ITU. i just think they made a spectacular miscalculation. the optics are atrocious. this is big medicine. they're going to have to walk this way back.

Well, let's hope ...

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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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This was exactly my thought. They cover their bodies for religious purposes.

I lost all respect for the ITU.

Dan get some Slowtwitch Flag stickers or maybe a rainbow with the logo and I’ll by one for all my bikes.

We need to stop the hate
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
Mark Lemmon wrote:
I can understand prohibiting carrying flags.


you realize this is done at the finish of almost every race? by the winner? including in the olympics?


I have clarified flags other than a country's flag, which, IMHO, is also a political and sometimes religious symbol.
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Jan 19, 19 14:25
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Anton84] [ In reply to ]
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I read the rule. It's in the article. I don't think it's at all a stretch to extrapolate why they added sexual orientation this year.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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No interference with other athletes and can’t tell you how many athletes and spectators that appreciated it and Thanked me

Last edited by: RUNNER86: Jan 19, 19 14:27
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ripple] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ripple wrote:
I can buy that.. but then if I have a group of people that all race in kits and have warm up gear, t shirts, hats etc. that say "marriage=man+woman" as an example, then that's my prerogative and I would expect the same respect that I show my fellow athletes who I know are gay and want to display that. I know I wouldn't get that same courtesy, God knows why, but what's good for one is good for the other.

Our tie that binds is sport, I wish we'd all keep it that way. We're hung up on the fringe issues and ignoring major issues that affect us all, left, right, black, white, dem, gop, and we hate each other because the radicals are loud and obnoxious and suck everyone in to an all or nothing proposition.

Sigh.
]

The difference between wearing a shirt that says "marriage = man + woman" and displaying a pride flag is pretty big:

"marriage = man + woman" is saying to people that you want to prevent them from being able to marry the person they love and all that goes with that. It means you want to prohibit them from engaging in some of the most important and fulfilling aspects of life. Even though it has no impact on you whatsoever.

Displaying a pride flag simply says that you support equal rights and respect for LGBQ people.

One is a message of discrimination and hate. The other is a message of inclusion and respect. One is directed at limiting rights and freedom for a class of people and the other is about NOT restricting freedom.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
As an old white conservative Christian heterosexual male, I would never wear a kit like yours. During a race, it would make me smile and remind me that the race is fun and inclusive! Thanks for sharing!

Team Zoot So Cal
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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Ecce-homo means "here is the man" or "here you have the man" in Latin. It's what Pontius Pilate said to the masses when he brought Jesus Christ to them. However, I picked the name from Frederick Nietzsche's auto biography, also called Ecce-Homo, and which I find hilarious.

Look, I am not religious, I am not gay, but I've had plenty of gay friends and I don't have any issues with gay expression. What I am debating here is that the ITU is after gay expression with this rule change. To me they are after any type of expression that is not sports related and is potentially conflicting. The world is huge, culture is diverse and we have to respect that. What sounds OK in the US or in Spain, where I come from, can be insulting in other countries. To believe that all form of expressions that are OK in our country should be accepted elsewhere encompasses a feeling of moral superiority.

I am very sad that the world is turning to a place where once certain things are said, the debate is over. Some one grabs a rule from the ITU interprets it however they like, and as long as it is in alignment with a hot topic, the debate is over.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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So; rainbows are forbidden but hiyabs are allowed
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I think you are taking it too far. You can race if you are black, white or yellow. Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Taoist or Hindi. You can race if you are Republican, Democrat, Communist or Anarchist. You can also race if you are a man or a woman, independently of your sexual orientation.

What the rule says is you cannot make propaganda of any of the above during an ITU sanctioned event.

In the case of sexual orientation it applies just as well to the rainbow flag as to an extreme Islamist making propaganda that women are the source of all evil and should stay at home.

What I understand ITU is after with this is to avoid conflict in a very diverse world. What might be OK in the US could potentially cause a riot in other countries. I would be very upset however if somebody got disqualified for making propaganda of their sexual orientation, and others did not get disqualified for making political, racial or religious propaganda.
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ecce-homo wrote:
In the case of sexual orientation it applies just as well to the rainbow flag as to an extreme Islamist making propaganda that women are the source of all evil and should stay at home.


The problem is exactly that it treats these two things the same. As Dan said, messages of hate and discrimination being banned is different from messages of inclusion and respect and they should not be treated as equivalent.

Edit - if a certain country wants to ban certain kinds of speech - they can do that and if the ITU decides to hold a race in one of those countries, the law will suffice. They do not need to implement their own rule that will affect all races in all countries.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Last edited by: RowToTri: Jan 19, 19 15:20
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In your discussions with the ITU, it might be helpful to point out that this is being discussed across multiple platforms - in addition to Slowtwitch, the Pathetic Triathletes facebook group is discussing it:

https://www.facebook.com/...nk/1184378545074161/

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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So what happens if Graeme Obree enters an ITU race wearing the rainbow stripes?
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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We probably share the same moral standards, but I don't believe I am morally superior to those that don't. I infer from your post that you believe to be morally superior to those that don't. You may be right, but that is the essence of the problem.

People in other countries have the right to have different beliefs. And at the very minimum, be given time to adapt.
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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ecce-homo wrote:
We probably share the same moral standards, but I don't believe I am morally superior to those that don't. I infer from your post that you believe to be morally superior to those that don't. You may be right, but that is the essence of the problem.

People in other countries have the right to have different beliefs. And at the very minimum, be given time to adapt.

I'm making no statement at all about my own moral standards vs. anyone else's. All I am saying is that ITU should not introduce discriminatory and exclusionary rules that they apply to all events in the world in order to satisfy cultural or political pressure from certain countries.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ecce-homo wrote:
What I am debating here is that the ITU is after gay expression with this rule change.


Here is the rule change from the official ITU document. (page 7):

Quote:
Avoid displaying any kind of demonstration of political, religious, sexual orientation or racial propaganda;


They only added two words to the existing rule, and I can't find any other way to interpret it than an intent to target gay expression. Now it could be relatively harmless, like maybe it was an oversight to leave out those two words in the past, and some bureaucrat thought the clause should be broader even though there was no particular incident (that I'm aware of) driving the rule change.

Or they could have been explicitly pressured to add them by some party.

Occam's razor suggests the latter to me. But only the ITU board knows.

I take issue with the term "propaganda". Propaganda is almost always used with pejorative intent, e.g. it's not just advocacy or expression, but the use of biased or fraudulent information used to deceive. Even if they did want to broadly ban social or political expression in an event, I'd prefer they find some other word.
Last edited by: trail: Jan 19, 19 16:03
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [trail] [ In reply to ]
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but a "sexual orientation" display could also mean someone running with flag promoting straight marriage only, depending on how you want to read the definition. I think the ITU are just covering all the bases and I don't really blame them.

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Callin'] [ In reply to ]
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Do I need to remove my UCI legal frame propaganda? hehe


Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Callin'] [ In reply to ]
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Callin' wrote:
but a "sexual orientation" display could also mean someone running with flag promoting straight marriage only, depending on how you want to read the definition. I think the ITU are just covering all the bases and I don't really blame them.


But why, is the question. There was no particular problem that I was aware of. Now they've invited a problem. As soon as you tell people they can't do something, you plant the seed of dissent. Someone mentioned the Streisand effect already. And Slowman mentioned that before this probably no one was intending to use Abu Dhabi as a venue for social commentary.
Last edited by: trail: Jan 19, 19 16:36
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
Callin' wrote:
but a "sexual orientation" display could also mean someone running with flag promoting straight marriage only, depending on how you want to read the definition. I think the ITU are just covering all the bases and I don't really blame them.


But why, is the question. There was no particular problem that I was aware of. Now they've invited a problem. As soon as you tell people they can't do something, you plant the seed of dissent. Someone mentioned the Streisand effect already. And Slowman mentioned that before this probably no one was intending to use Abu Dhabi as a venue for social commentary.

I don;t know either, seems like a boneheaded move I agree (I was the one who mentioned Streisand)

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Callin'] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Callin' wrote:
but a "sexual orientation" display could also mean someone running with flag promoting straight marriage only, depending on how you want to read the definition. I think the ITU are just covering all the bases and I don't really blame them.

And, again, crosses and crescents and stars of various sorts are also banned by this rule. Do you think the rule will be enforced on them with equal vigor? History gives a resounding "no", because the reality of rules like this is they are always used to target the disenfranchised and minority.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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I hope so, yes, but you may be right

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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 I'm not sure I even know what the ITU is exactly. The conduct code used for big spectator sports might not be the best model for what is essentially a participation sport.

Seems like they would be better off encouraging people to demonstrate propaganda just to make the races more entertaining and attract more attention.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [lithops] [ In reply to ]
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Define â€propaganda’. What does this word mean and how do you enforce a rule about it? Is a rainbow flag actually â€propaganda’ about sexual orientation? I think it can be argued it isn’t.

So quite possibly a rule which will be quite difficult to enforce given I would have thought â€propaganda †narrows what is covered quite considerably.
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [lithops] [ In reply to ]
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lithops wrote:
I'm not sure I even know what the ITU is exactly. The conduct code used for big spectator sports might not be the best model for what is essentially a participation sport.

Seems like they would be better off encouraging people to demonstrate propaganda just to make the races more entertaining and attract more attention.


The ITU doesn't cover the participation part of triathlon. It manages the elite end of the spectrum, including the Olympics, World Championships, and World Cup events. (not including the "Ironman" World Championships).
Last edited by: trail: Jan 19, 19 18:24
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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fulla wrote:
Define â€propaganda’. What does this word mean and how do you enforce a rule about it? Is a rainbow flag actually â€propaganda’ about sexual orientation? I think it can be argued it isn’t.

It could be argued amongst us, but it's really only the opinion of the ITU that matters in terms of enforcement of the rule. According to Slowman here, he's presumably seeking clarification on what their definition is, with no luck yet.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Last edited by: Trigirl357: Jan 19, 19 19:15
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
lithops wrote:
I'm not sure I even know what the ITU is exactly. The conduct code used for big spectator sports might not be the best model for what is essentially a participation sport.

Seems like they would be better off encouraging people to demonstrate propaganda just to make the races more entertaining and attract more attention.


The ITU doesn't cover the participation part of triathlon. It manages the elite end of the spectrum, including the Olympics, World Championships, and World Cup events. (not including the "Ironman" World Championships).

Thousands of AG athletes compete each year in ITU World Championships and open AG events put on in conjunction with World Cup events, including the race in Abu Dhabi in March.
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
ecce-homo wrote:
What I am debating here is that the ITU is after gay expression with this rule change.


Here is the rule change from the official ITU document. (page 7):

Quote:
Avoid displaying any kind of demonstration of political, religious, sexual orientation or racial propaganda;


They only added two words to the existing rule, and I can't find any other way to interpret it than an intent to target gay expression.


....snip.....


I take issue with the term "propaganda". Propaganda is almost always used with pejorative intent, e.g. it's not just advocacy or expression, but the use of biased or fraudulent information used to deceive. Even if they did want to broadly ban social or political expression in an event, I'd prefer they find some other word.

My take on this, is that the focus is on completely the wrong interpretation of this. As far as I am aware from this thread and the source article, then the ITU hasn't said anything about banning rainbow flags, flags of any sort, this is interpretation of what could be banned under this rule.

So my reading is that the rule (which is under the clause about respecting fellow athletes) states that you avoid displaying and demonstration of propaganda. There's then some additional terms that specify the types of propaganda they don't want to see. So your point about not wanting the term propaganda applied to the rainbow flag is the wrong way round - no-one has said that the flag is propaganda and therefore there is nothing explicitly banning it.

Indeed I would consider that there's actually a huge 180 misreading of this. This rule means that explicitly then no race packs, no race village stalls can advocate 'straight' relationship. So think back to the winter Olympics in russia where there was a worry that non straight athletes would be at risk from both abuse and legal harassment, then this is protecting all athletes from harassment when racing.

And of course whilst this is an ITU rule, the higher law in many parts of the world would protect a persons right to freedom of expression. So any referee that was to DQ someone for waving a rainbow flag (as opposed to allowing people to wave national flags) is potentially at risk of legal trouble. Actually, that does lead to a discussion that is perhaps a lot more realistic in terms of what this rule originally applied to, what about an athlete flying the Basque flag at a race in Spain. That would be a lot more debatable as being under the term 'propaganda'. Handing out pro Basque leaflets would certainly be, but certainly some could well take exception to the flag too.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Duncan74] [ In reply to ]
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A few years ago didn't the UCI ban anyone from displaying the rainbow logo because they wanted it reserved for only the cycling world champions? Quite a few frame makers, wheels, components were produced with the rainbow logo after an athlete won a wc age group using thier gear, or not even....so those had to be covered up in big events. I seem to remember that they tried to stop other sports from using the rainbow for thier champions too and for a while the triathlon champion bike maker came up with alternative rainbows... Like shattering rainbow sparks instead of neat bands... But that seems to have passed.
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
What you are saying reworded, "the ITU should not introduce legal changes that go against my moral standards to satisfy countries with differing moral standards"

What you and I would call exclusion and discrimination are fine for most people in many countries in the world. Plus nobody is being excluded or discriminated with this rule, only the propaganda. And as others have noted, the term propaganda is extremely broad, and probably needs definition.
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 I am disgusted by this. I think this is directed at the Brownlee brothers and some of the other gay athletes. I think we should just stop signing up for ITU events, we can have a boycott. I say everybody stop signing up for IronMan events then they’ll get the message and they would have to change the rule. I was planning Ironman 70.3 La Paz in 2019 but now that is on hold. Screw the ITU! I agree with others, likely the Russians are behind this rule change. If they can force the gay athletes out they cane have more medals!
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [J7] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
J7 wrote:
I am disgusted by this. I think this is directed at the Brownlee brothers and some of the other gay athletes. I think we should just stop signing up for ITU events, we can have a boycott. I say everybody stop signing up for IronMan events then they’ll get the message and they would have to change the rule. I was planning Ironman 70.3 La Paz in 2019 but now that is on hold. Screw the ITU! I agree with others, likely the Russians are behind this rule change. If they can force the gay athletes out they cane have more medals!

Since when have the Brownlee brothers been gay???
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ecce-homo wrote:
What you are saying reworded, "the ITU should not introduce legal changes that go against my moral standards to satisfy countries with differing moral standards"

What you and I would call exclusion and discrimination are fine for most people in many countries in the world. Plus nobody is being excluded or discriminated with this rule, only the propaganda. And as others have noted, the term propaganda is extremely broad, and probably needs definition.

Just because something is "fine" in many countries doesn't make it morally acceptable, here or there. You know that, too.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Duncan74] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Duncan74 wrote:
trail wrote:
ecce-homo wrote:
What I am debating here is that the ITU is after gay expression with this rule change.


Here is the rule change from the official ITU document. (page 7):

Quote:
Avoid displaying any kind of demonstration of political, religious, sexual orientation or racial propaganda;


They only added two words to the existing rule, and I can't find any other way to interpret it than an intent to target gay expression.


....snip.....


I take issue with the term "propaganda". Propaganda is almost always used with pejorative intent, e.g. it's not just advocacy or expression, but the use of biased or fraudulent information used to deceive. Even if they did want to broadly ban social or political expression in an event, I'd prefer they find some other word.


My take on this, is that the focus is on completely the wrong interpretation of this. As far as I am aware from this thread and the source article, then the ITU hasn't said anything about banning rainbow flags, flags of any sort, this is interpretation of what could be banned under this rule.

So my reading is that the rule (which is under the clause about respecting fellow athletes) states that you avoid displaying and demonstration of propaganda. There's then some additional terms that specify the types of propaganda they don't want to see. So your point about not wanting the term propaganda applied to the rainbow flag is the wrong way round - no-one has said that the flag is propaganda and therefore there is nothing explicitly banning it.

Indeed I would consider that there's actually a huge 180 misreading of this. This rule means that explicitly then no race packs, no race village stalls can advocate 'straight' relationship. So think back to the winter Olympics in russia where there was a worry that non straight athletes would be at risk from both abuse and legal harassment, then this is protecting all athletes from harassment when racing.

And of course whilst this is an ITU rule, the higher law in many parts of the world would protect a persons right to freedom of expression. So any referee that was to DQ someone for waving a rainbow flag (as opposed to allowing people to wave national flags) is potentially at risk of legal trouble. Actually, that does lead to a discussion that is perhaps a lot more realistic in terms of what this rule originally applied to, what about an athlete flying the Basque flag at a race in Spain. That would be a lot more debatable as being under the term 'propaganda'. Handing out pro Basque leaflets would certainly be, but certainly some could well take exception to the flag too.


Freedom of speech laws (at least in the US) protect people from the government limiting their speech, not from private organizations or individuals. A company can ban certain forms of expression or certain messages legally. So the ITU can DQ you from a race. Walmart can ask you to leave their store (unless it would discriminate against certain protected classes). The government cannot arrest you or remove you from public spaces.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Last edited by: RowToTri: Jan 20, 19 5:27
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RowToTri wrote:
Duncan74 wrote:
trail wrote:
ecce-homo wrote:
What I am debating here is that the ITU is after gay expression with this rule change.


Here is the rule change from the official ITU document. (page 7):

Quote:
Avoid displaying any kind of demonstration of political, religious, sexual orientation or racial propaganda;


They only added two words to the existing rule, and I can't find any other way to interpret it than an intent to target gay expression.


....snip.....


I take issue with the term "propaganda". Propaganda is almost always used with pejorative intent, e.g. it's not just advocacy or expression, but the use of biased or fraudulent information used to deceive. Even if they did want to broadly ban social or political expression in an event, I'd prefer they find some other word.


My take on this, is that the focus is on completely the wrong interpretation of this. As far as I am aware from this thread and the source article, then the ITU hasn't said anything about banning rainbow flags, flags of any sort, this is interpretation of what could be banned under this rule.

So my reading is that the rule (which is under the clause about respecting fellow athletes) states that you avoid displaying and demonstration of propaganda. There's then some additional terms that specify the types of propaganda they don't want to see. So your point about not wanting the term propaganda applied to the rainbow flag is the wrong way round - no-one has said that the flag is propaganda and therefore there is nothing explicitly banning it.

Indeed I would consider that there's actually a huge 180 misreading of this. This rule means that explicitly then no race packs, no race village stalls can advocate 'straight' relationship. So think back to the winter Olympics in russia where there was a worry that non straight athletes would be at risk from both abuse and legal harassment, then this is protecting all athletes from harassment when racing.

And of course whilst this is an ITU rule, the higher law in many parts of the world would protect a persons right to freedom of expression. So any referee that was to DQ someone for waving a rainbow flag (as opposed to allowing people to wave national flags) is potentially at risk of legal trouble. Actually, that does lead to a discussion that is perhaps a lot more realistic in terms of what this rule originally applied to, what about an athlete flying the Basque flag at a race in Spain. That would be a lot more debatable as being under the term 'propaganda'. Handing out pro Basque leaflets would certainly be, but certainly some could well take exception to the flag too.


Freedom of speech laws (at least in the US) protect people from the government limiting their speech, not from private organizations or individuals. A company can ban certain forms of expression or certain messages legally. So the ITU can DQ you from a race. Walmart can ask you to leave their store (unless it would discriminate against certain protected classes). The government cannot arrest you or remove you from public spaces.

The fact is what Ed says. Obviously there are countries where flying a rainbow flag will get you killed.
The "but everyone is protected" explaining its obviously bullshit. The same crooked reasoning of all lives matter vs black lives matter. The LGBTQ community is targeted, the non-lgbtq isn't.

NO
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [J7] [ In reply to ]
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J7 wrote:
I am disgusted by this. I think this is directed at the Brownlee brothers and some of the other gay athletes. I think we should just stop signing up for ITU events, we can have a boycott. I say everybody stop signing up for IronMan events then they’ll get the message and they would have to change the rule. I was planning Ironman 70.3 La Paz in 2019 but now that is on hold. Screw the ITU! I agree with others, likely the Russians are behind this rule change. If they can force the gay athletes out they cane have more medals!

So you think that boycotting organization B (Ironman) will get organization A (ITU) to change the latter's rule? Did you learn this in the school of ineffective boycotts?
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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So there is only one acceptable moral, and that is yours? Mind you, it probably is basically the same as mine. But I understand that in some countries things that we take for granted are unacceptable. And that they see us as morally decadent.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Shorter ITU: "It is the duty of the ITU to afflict the afflicted and comfort the comfortable."
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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snort

RChung wrote:
Shorter ITU: "It is the duty of the ITU to afflict the afflicted and comfort the comfortable."

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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ITU athletes represent their country and display their nation’s flag, not sexual orientation, religions beliefs, etc.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I don't have Facebook to comment on your front page article, so I'll add it here:
Extremely well said, I'm incredibly glad that this sport has someone like you.

NO
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Alabama Viking] [ In reply to ]
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to all of you, i just got this statement from USAT's CEO, Rocky Harris:

"USA Triathlon recently became aware of the rule amendment made by the International Triathlon Union concerning 'athlete demonstrations' at events. We are in direct communication with the ITU in an attempt to learn more, and to address the resulting concerns this rule change represents for the LGBTQ community. We take pride in the fact that our sport – and ITU – has historically been a leader in equality and inclusivity, so we anticipate this decision will be reviewed more closely."

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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ecce-homo wrote:
So there is only one acceptable moral, and that is yours? Mind you, it probably is basically the same as mine. But I understand that in some countries things that we take for granted are unacceptable. And that they see us as morally decadent.

Some things are immoral regardless of cultural norms, yes. Do you disagree? Or is everything acceptable if a different culture says so? That's not open-minded; that's making morals and rights irrelevant.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I'll be curious what your going to assume/think if the ITU answers your questions and/or gets more info out there that this wasn't a move against anyone and essentially shoulder shrugs to the "outrage"?

IE- if they respond with this ruling was done to "get back to triathlon" and take out all the other stuff, what will your response be? I've personally thought that as long as your not "demonstrating" your not going to ever get pinged by the officials. So the guy with the rainbow tat, I dont think you have a worry in the world, for the same reason a person wearing a cross won't either. But pick up a rainbow flag or drag a cross w/ thorns across the finish line and there is the "demonstration" stuff they don't want.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Wetfeet] [ In reply to ]
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Wetfeet wrote:
ITU athletes represent their country and display their nation’s flag, not sexual orientation, religions beliefs, etc.

Are you advocating your ideal or reality? Because the reality is that they do sometimes demonstrate their religious beliefs or attitudes toward sexual orientation. Per the article on the main page, which covers the spectrum toward openly displaying a rainbow flag at one end to wearing overtly religious wear like a cross on a necklace or religious headgear.

Somewhere in there is presumably the line between "propaganda" (using publicity as a stage to advocate my beliefs) and "just following my beliefs." Where that line is isn't entirely clear.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Wetfeet] [ In reply to ]
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Wetfeet wrote:
ITU athletes represent their country and display their nation’s flag, not sexual orientation, religions beliefs, etc.


From the article on the front page:





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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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See the issue I have with all this is this. If we are equating someone wearing a cross under their jersey that may or may not bounce around to the same thing as someone waving a big ass flag at the end of the race, I'd just rather not have a conversation with that person because I think "common" sense is gone at that point.

ETA: For some reason I'm curious why a runner with a cross wasn't included in the pictures for the article, is it because it's so obscure that it never really materializes into anything and only something as big as a 3'x5' flag does materialize into something?

I mean we can all differentiate the difference right, between someone doing something with their own personal beliefs that don't "bother" others like wearing a cross and someone using a large external item for demostration?

Like isn't the whole point of waving a big ass flag at the end of the race basically a "demonstration"? Or else they'd be using it the whole time, but they don't so it's pretty much used specifically to make a point, yes?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Jan 20, 19 18:52
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think we are trying to equate those two things. I think we are saying that if someone grabs a rainbow flag from someone in the chute and caries it over the finish line, they should not be DQ'd for it.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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But isn't the fact that you grab it at the end going to the finish line, the very point that your trying to make a "statement"? Your trying to use the finish line as some demonstration with an external item- whether national flag or otherwise- Rainbow flag for whatever reason you want (some assume it's for gay rights, etc).

Whereas someone with a cross or some woman fully wardrobe isn't really doing anything external to prove a point, or atleast they are using it for the entire race and it's "their" thing. So they aren't going across the finish line holding up crosses, etc. Dan you used the rainbow flag as evidence, so if you can show me an athlete holding a cross across the line as some regular event, I'll be glad to be proven wrong.


So I just dont think you can tell me it's not a demonstration by grabbing a flag at the end....and I'll say this for the nationality flags as well. The whole point of doing that is to showcase something other than themselves. So I'm actually cool if they "ban" all flag totting "moments" so that it's a clear and concise rule.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Jan 20, 19 18:59
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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ecce-homo wrote:
If you read the detail this is not against the rainbow flag in particular but against any religious, political or sexual symbols.

The whole thing is a swamp. On the front page the argument is made that the pride flag should be allowed because some groups are less privileged than others. In the shifting sands of societal acceptance who gets to decide? Are polygamist flags not allowed today but tomorrow okay? On a university campus these days advancing certain traditional ideas would get you ostracized for sure.

When some folks talk about diversity what they are really saying is they don't want a mere multiplicity of human characteristics and types but rather a preference for certain groups over others. "Diversity" never means that Algeria must accept more Frenchmen or Zimbabwe more English farmers of course.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I'll be curious what your going to assume/think if the ITU answers your questions and/or gets more info out there that this wasn't a move against anyone and essentially shoulder shrugs to the "outrage"?

IE- if they respond with this ruling was done to "get back to triathlon" and take out all the other stuff, what will your response be? I've personally thought that as long as your not "demonstrating" your not going to ever get pinged by the officials. So the guy with the rainbow tat, I dont think you have a worry in the world, for the same reason a person wearing a cross won't either. But pick up a rainbow flag or drag a cross w/ thorns across the finish line and there is the "demonstration" stuff they don't want.

That is pretty much my view.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
For some reason I'm curious why a runner with a cross wasn't included in the pictures for the article, is it because it's so obscure that it never really materializes into anything and only something as big as a 3'x5' flag does materialize into something?

The point is not the flag. The point is the addition of the sexual orientation conveniently right before a race that could be sensitive to non- heterosexual displays.
Sadly there is a reason that there are groups for LGBTQ athletes, or athletes of color, or women. Us white straight guys don't get profiled by police, or locked up because of color or sexual orientation. Dan's point is that triathlon is a place for everyone. And if someone doesn't get it why that statement is necessary, get real, don't pretend like racism and sexism etc are not omnipresent.

NO
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
See the issue I have with all this is this. If we are equating someone wearing a cross under their jersey that may or may not bounce around to the same thing as someone waving a big ass flag at the end of the race, I'd just rather not have a conversation with that person because I think "common" sense is gone at that point.

ETA: For some reason I'm curious why a runner with a cross wasn't included in the pictures for the article, is it because it's so obscure that it never really materializes into anything and only something as big as a 3'x5' flag does materialize into something?

I mean we can all differentiate the difference right, between someone doing something with their own personal beliefs that don't "bother" others like wearing a cross and someone using a large external item for demostration?

Like isn't the whole point of waving a big ass flag at the end of the race basically a "demonstration"? Or else they'd be using it the whole time, but they don't so it's pretty much used specifically to make a point, yes?

The righties creamed their pants over Tim Teebow bowing in the endzone to thank Jesus for another touchdown and then collectively lost their damn minds over Collin Kaepernick being concerned with something bigger than himself.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Is the fact that USAT is looking into it, a direct result of this thread that alerted you, Dan who got in touch with USAT?
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Alabama Viking] [ In reply to ]
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The point is not the flag.

-----

But isn't that the point what I said that ITU is getting back to the place where it's about "athletics" and not using races for demonstrations of any manner. Again I think we can all understand there's a difference in "demonstration" for a guy wearing a cross around his neck on a necklace that is rarely seen by others and a guy flying any flag at the end of the race.

So is the whole point by not letting people fly a rainbow flag that we are infringing on their rights or making them 2nd class citizens? I know for sure all types of people have hardships, I'm just not sure why we have to use the athletic field to demonstrate on? Maybe my middle class whiteness is getting in the way, but I'm just not understanding things, if ITU is simply saying "just race". They aren't saying you can't, aren't they basically trying to take all the demonstrations out of the sport? But they aren't saying who can and can't race, they are simply saying how they want their race raced, right??....novel concept in a sporting event.


I guess I'm missing the point that we are infringing on athletes by not not letting them showcase their sexual orientation in a race. I'd assume going back to the basis of what sports are- competition is a good thing.

So is the issue that people are pissed that the rainbow flag waving guy will be DQ'd but the cute white christian girl with a cross on her necklace wont? Which as I said I can see the difference in the 2. If people can't, and that's the beef, fair enough.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Jan 20, 19 19:31
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I'll be curious what your going to assume/think if the ITU answers your questions and/or gets more info out there that this wasn't a move against anyone and essentially shoulder shrugs to the "outrage"?

IE- if they respond with this ruling was done to "get back to triathlon" and take out all the other stuff, what will your response be? I've personally thought that as long as your not "demonstrating" your not going to ever get pinged by the officials. So the guy with the rainbow tat, I dont think you have a worry in the world, for the same reason a person wearing a cross won't either. But pick up a rainbow flag or drag a cross w/ thorns across the finish line and there is the "demonstration" stuff they don't want.

they've created an NFL problem. which was avoidable.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [dcohen24] [ In reply to ]
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dcohen24 wrote:
Is the fact that USAT is looking into it, a direct result of this thread that alerted you, Dan who got in touch with USAT?

i don't know. i saw the thread. then i read the story in outsports. then i contacted both the ITU and USAT. then i contacted jack bristow. i don't know how USAT got wind of this. maybe it was from me, i don't know. but the OP was pretty quick to get on it. if i ever get scooped, it's usually not another portal; it's usually by my own forum.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Carrying any flag across the finish line is a demonstration - typically of pride and solidarity with whatever group is represented by the flag. Obviously that is usually a national flag. As far as I am concerned, as long as the flag does not advocate repressing or harming other people, they can go for it.

Expressly prohibiting a group that is historically oppressed from being able to openly associate themselves with that group - an expression that can help other members of it find acceptance and comfort, that is simply perpetuating oppression.

Banning all representations of anything that can be construed to mean anything other than "I am a triathlete" is pretty insane. Also it would make it even harder to make a living as a professional in this sport than it already is. This whole thing is supposed to be fun, anyway.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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This whole thing is supposed to be fun, anyway.

------

Fun competition, and isn't that the point they are trying to make by installing this rule? Simply you know get back to racing and see who's the best, not who's the best gay or best black or best white or best straight athlete.

IE- you seem to suggest that X is allowed because it's cool and not repressing, but Y isn't because well maybe it's negative and a repressive group.

But isn't the ITU saying let's just ban A-Z and get back to the fun competition? And yet they are being villified?


ETA: It sorta baffles me that your telling me your angry at the ITU but in the same light say that some groups should be allowed to demonstrate because they are for everyone, but others cant because they are oppressive. Like it seems to me that the ITU is trying to take it all out, so I'm not sure how they are keeping people down? I dont understand that logic. It seems to me the ITU is simply saying let's get back to clean, fun racing devoid of all the drama.


ETA #2- I've coached openly gay athletes, straight athletes, males, females, hell I've even coached a transgender person (female to male), and not once did anyone want to use any part of their race to "demonstrate". I'd think you'd want to spend the whole race as a demonstration of who you are, and not the final 20s of your event, or else your just doing it to make some type of specific statement....Which isn't the whole point that the ITU wants you to spend the last 20s of the event the same way you did the previous 99.8% of the event. Isn't that the whole rule, but because you cant now carry your flag, your feeling oppressed???

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Jan 20, 19 19:50
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [len] [ In reply to ]
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len wrote:
The whole thing is a swamp.

i could find exactly one incidence of a rainbow flag at the finish of an ITU race. one.

so, when the ITU makes a rule on the basis of this, the only logical conclusion is that some entity with juice, and that is anti-civil-rights, is making a complaint, and the ITU is giving in to that entity. if that is not the case, fine. but i think the onus is on the ITU to explain, transparently, how this singular issue (that happened in a race in the UK) gave birth to this rule.

if my suspicion is right, then, no, it's not a swamp. it is using sport as a whip, to keep a historically threatened community of people quiet and compliant.

that makes me angry. i hate bullies. no straw men, logical fallacies or whataboutisms will solve this for me.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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it is using sport as a whip, to keep a historically threatened community of people quiet and compliant.

-------

How? Aren't they basically creating a rule that takes out everything but simply athletics? They want everyone to shut up and race. But answer me this, did the one incident that you found, did he carry the flag the whole time or only at the end? I'm going to guess he picked it up at the finish line, so 99.9% of the time he was cool with being just an random athlete, you see him racing you wouldn't know him as straight/bi/homesexual/catholic/baptis/atheist/good person/bad person....but only at the end was when the identity of the athlete came out right?

ETA: Seems to me the ITU wants to make it 100% you see the racers and you don't know their sexuality/religion/thoughts/good person/bad person, you simply see an athlete racing. And if you are trying to tell me they should take out cross necklaces, sure just please dont equate that and demonstrating your beliefs at the end of a race when you weren't doing that previously as the same thing.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Jan 20, 19 20:14
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
But isn't the fact that you grab it at the end going to the finish line, the very point that your trying to make a "statement"? Your trying to use the finish line as some demonstration with an external item- whether national flag or otherwise- Rainbow flag for whatever reason you want (some assume it's for gay rights, etc).

Whereas someone with a cross or some woman fully wardrobe isn't really doing anything external to prove a point, or atleast they are using it for the entire race and it's "their" thing. So they aren't going across the finish line holding up crosses, etc. Dan you used the rainbow flag as evidence, so if you can show me an athlete holding a cross across the line as some regular event, I'll be glad to be proven wrong.


So I just dont think you can tell me it's not a demonstration by grabbing a flag at the end....and I'll say this for the nationality flags as well. The whole point of doing that is to showcase something other than themselves. So I'm actually cool if they "ban" all flag totting "moments" so that it's a clear and concise rule.


With this logic, the ALS/ Blazeman roll is also a demonstration. How about firemen racing with all of their gear? I have seen crosses carried and even charity flags. What else would you like to throw in the pot? How about we learn to respect others no matter what they stand for?! Does seeing someone pass by with a flag really harm anyone?
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Trigirl357] [ In reply to ]
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How about we learn to respect others no matter what they stand for?! Does seeing someone pass by with a flag really harm anyone?

------

Where did I say I don't respect any particular group? I've simply said let's have a race be a race, as I dont care what you are in a race. Which is my whole point that I think ITU is getting at. ETA: I've stated that a guy wanting to wear a rainbow ribbon or armband to me isn't "demonstrating" in the same light a white christian wearing a cross isn't "demonstrating" (in my viewpoint), but the moment you get to the finish line and bring some external item into the "field of play", that's where I see the error at. So hell no, I'm not trying to put any group down, in fact I'm advocating taking all that "external" stuff out of the field of play. You either are fast or not fast based on you the athlete, not you the religious/political/sexual person.

So my point was, it seems that 99.9% of the race this guy was cool with just being an athlete, right? He wasnt putting his views out there until the very end, yes? He "respected" the race for what it is, a race that doesn't matter what you believe, doesnt matter color of your skin, doesn't matter who you like, it matters if you trained or not.

And FYI I'm fine with banning all demostrations- that's my point. I'm cool with them banning even athletes picking up national flags. Race the damn race, leave the other stuff for another venue. Or is that viewpoint meaning I'm "hating" on certain groups?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Jan 20, 19 20:31
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I really don't understand this thing about demonstrating only at the end instead of throughout the whole thing? How does that matter at all?

How is he not respecting the race and the other racers by carrying that flag? Who does he harm by carrying that flag?

If we ban all "demonstrations" then we must have no sponsor logos because companies DO stand for things and invoke certain ideas. Team in Training, and Ironman Foundation kits must be banned. Any tri teams with kits displaying their name or logo must not stand for anything other than racing. Does any of this make any sense?

Edit - Also, these kinds of things are pretty rare anyway. Why worry about it at all? All these years without the rule, and virtually no displays of LGBTQ rights. We have identified one. Any more? It really does seem like a repressive government is using their money influence and world championship venue to try to impose their nationally sanctioned civil rights abuses to the ITU, who have tried to quietly comply. Maybe. It is a question worth asking.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Last edited by: RowToTri: Jan 20, 19 20:40
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Who does he harm by carrying that flag?

--------

In the same light, how is he or the group he's standing for harmed by now not being allowed to carry the flag? They aren't not being allowed to race are they? They aren't being made to change the person they are. You just can't openly demonstrate your viewpoint in the field of play, but tell me again how that's now keeping you down?

Because it's taking an place away for you to demonstrate your viewpoints?

Help me understand that part of it. When for the whole race you aren't using the event to demonstrate your viewpoints, until the very end, but now because that's being taken away, you arenn't good with just going back to being an "regular" athlete? ETA: I dont really give a shit if your gay or atheist or a "bad" person, when you enter an event to me your just an athlete. As I said I've coached openly gay athletes, I've coached transgender athletes, I've coached straight, lesbian athletes, fat people, skinny people, professionals, MOP, BOP, fast people, slow people, black, Asian, white, non-Americans, Americans- none of that shit matters to me, and I'll more than gladly help them with whatever movement they want. But if your telling me because now you can't showcase your sexual orientation, your now feeling "prosecuted", I just dont find much empathy in terms of you saying you need the field of play for that showcase. To me that's the last place I'd want demonstrations as you sprinting down the finish line mano y mano none of that matters.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Jan 20, 19 20:49
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Who does he harm by carrying that flag?

--------

In the same light, how is he or the group he's standing for harmed by now not being allowed to carry the flag? They aren't not being allowed to race are they? They aren't being made to change the person they are. You just can't openly demonstrate your viewpoint in the field of play, but tell me again how that's now keeping you down?

Because it's taking an place away for you to demonstrate your viewpoints?

Help me understand that part of it. When for the whole race you aren't using the event to demonstrate your viewpoints, until the very end, but now because that's being taken away, you arenn't good with just going back to being an "regular" athlete?

Because until recently, they have had to keep that part of them hidden. If they didn't they would be ostracized, physically harmed, even murdered. So being able to express it publicly - and while doing something that they are also proud of - is an important step in welcoming them into society as they always should have been. We have made progress in most Western countries on this issue, but there is still a long way to go and many people who fear living their life openly. So these displays are a message to them that they do not have to feel alone.

That is why it is important for people to be allowed to make these expressions. Banning it is at minimum blocking the progress society is making and preventing further healing to happen.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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which broadcasts loud and clear the color of your welcome mat.

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Except you would be clueless as to what I'm welcoming to this sport. Like I said, I've coached gays, I've coacheed blacks, I've coached whites, I've coached slow people, fast people, professionals, newbies. Not once did I care about their sexual orientation, their beliefs, their political stances, I've cared about them as athletes.

So Dan you can have your opinoin and I'll just tell you loud and clear to go to hell if your trying to say that I'm trying to "oppress" people.

And with that you can openly ban me, cus this is your sandbox.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for that response. The point that I'll make is that I'm ok with sports "hiding" who you are. Not that I mean oppressing, but more in the light that I don't really care who you are or what you believe. I just care for a fair race. I don't care that you support Trump or that you are and Christmas only Christian or that you "play for the other team" (Seinfeld reference). I just care for the fairest/cleanest conditions possible in a race. I dont need cultural demonstrations in the field of play. I'm more for just letting the athlete in you be showcased in sports.

I'm sorry if that means I'm "not welcoming", I actually think it's the purest most simple logic about it. So it seems all they have done is here added sexual orientation to religion/political politics being banned. If that now means that 1 group feels oppressed, I'm sorry that's the case. It's in my viewpoint/stance that I would hope it not be, but if you feel oppressed, I can't really say how the next man feels. I can do as much as I can to make it a safe place, and apparently this ruling seems to not do that. I'm just asking how it's not (you are suggesting it's now going to stunt the growth of acceptance), if it's trying to remove all the politics out of the field of play.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Jan 20, 19 21:03
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
which broadcasts loud and clear the color of your welcome mat.

------

Except you would be clueless as to what I'm welcoming to this sport. Like I said, I've coached gays, I've coacheed blacks, I've coached whites, I've coached slow people, fast people, professionals, newbies. Not once did I care about their sexual orientation, their beliefs, their political stances, I've cared about them as athletes.

So Dan you can have your opinoin and I'll just tell you loud and clear to go to hell if your trying to say that I'm trying to "oppress" people.

And with that you can openly ban me, cus this is your sandbox.

thank you. i know i can ban you. but i'd rather be comforted in the knowledge that you understood what some of us are saying. if you understand, and you disagree, fine. do you understand? can you convincingly present the argument and and others are presenting? so that we all know you appreciate the issue? (and i'm happy to do the same in reverse if you want.)

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [len] [ In reply to ]
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len wrote:
The whole thing is a swamp. On the front page the argument is made that the pride flag should be allowed because some groups are less privileged than others. In the shifting sands of societal acceptance who gets to decide? Are polygamist flags not allowed today but tomorrow okay? On a university campus these days advancing certain traditional ideas would get you ostracized for sure.
Most people can see the difference between someone grabbing a US (or other national) flag, a "Roll Tide" banner, or a rainbow scarf vs. taking a swastika, a Confederate flag, a poster advocating polygamy, or a billboard plugging Ford (or Chevy) pickup trucks and running down the finish chute with it.

However, ITU probably needs to go with the "One guy pooped his pants so everyone will wear diapers in the future" approach. Allow nothing other than your tri suit, helmet/hat, sunglasses, and shoes while you're on the course and during the podium ceremony. "Feel free to wear your MAGA hats and wave your rainbow flags while you're unloading/loading your car in the parking lot, but we're not prepared to be seen as advocating for nor discriminating against any group or organization."

If a major sponsor ever comes on board willing to pony up a few hundred $million, ITU can let athletes wear hats/carry flags with the sponsors logo.

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I can understand the view. However, what concerns me is that if I'm suggesting we take out all the social commentary in sports, and just let it be a competition, that I'm in favor of only being "welcoming" of certain segments with that viewpoint????? That when I read ITU's ruling, to me it sounds like as I said to the other gentleman, they are simply getting rid of demonstrations A-Z, but somehow only X group is being "oppressed"? That's the part that I'm a bit unclear on if your trying to then tell me I'm "not welcoming", if I have a viewpoint of taking out all the social commentary viewpoints. I would think it's the opposite, I'm not for or against rainbow touting people, I'm for the race being clear of all of that.

Now if your saying that the gay/lesbian community feels oppressed now, that's not my intent with saying "take out all social commentary", as I'm actually trying to have a viewpoint that is welcoming to all. So as I think Ed said earlier, he would allow for "good" groups to demonstrate, but "bad" groups couldnt. My thought is, what if we just dont allow any group to demonstrate in the actual field of play? What if we simply celebrate the athlete- not the gay athlete or the straight athlete or the black athlete or the mixed athlete or the slow athlete, but the ATHLETE.

But if it's truly being done to "oppress" a group, then yeah let's figure it out. But if I have a viewpoint that is trying to take out all oppression by removing all status, how are you then saying "I'm not welcoming" with my logic?

ETA: So it dawned on me....I'm basically trying to "silent" all groups, and just make it about the athlete. Nothing less, nothing more. If an group needs sporting arena to "demonstrate", and if it doesn't get that then that sport is now "not welcoming", that's just an viewpoint that I won't agree with. Sports doesn't matter who you are, it matters how you play the game. You don't need to be any particular race/religion/sexual orientation to do that.

Final edit: So again this is your sandbox, but your also a very infleuntial person in this sport. I certainly don't appreciate you putting that statement on me. As pissed off as you seem to be, that's pissed me off with you accusing me of being "welcoming" to only certain groups. This will be the last I speak on this topic, I've said my piece, I've read others. I appreciate where their stance is, I'd appreciate you could see mine and not put words on me that I've not spoken.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Jan 20, 19 22:10
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
dcohen24 wrote:
Is the fact that USAT is looking into it, a direct result of this thread that alerted you, Dan who got in touch with USAT?


i don't know. i saw the thread. then i read the story in outsports. then i contacted both the ITU and USAT. then i contacted jack bristow. i don't know how USAT got wind of this. maybe it was from me, i don't know. but the OP was pretty quick to get on it. if i ever get scooped, it's usually not another portal; it's usually by my own forum.


Why add that specific language and why now? Is the additional specific language reactive to ongoing issues or incidents? However, the sport has been around long enough to determine basic ground rules, so it would seem it’s either reactive to relatively recent ongoing issues or being influenced from entities (with certain agendas) that also financially support/influence the sport decision makers (ITU).
Last edited by: wetswimmer99: Jan 20, 19 22:01
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
len wrote:
The whole thing is a swamp.


i could find exactly one incidence of a rainbow flag at the finish of an ITU race. one.

so, when the ITU makes a rule on the basis of this, the only logical conclusion is that some entity with juice, and that is anti-civil-rights, is making a complaint, and the ITU is giving in to that entity. (edited)

There is a huge leap that the rule has been created for anything to do with the rainbow flag, that the rule is anti LGBTQI (as opposed to protecting all competitors) and came about as a result of a complaint. Apologies if I missed this, but where is there anything to support this?

I would be very very very upset if I was to find out that the ITU was to be biased against members of the rainbow community, and again if ether of the national bodies that I have relationships with were to align with such a view. But I'm not swayed as of yet that this was the intent. I can see how it's been possible to extrapolate this view, but I still see 100 more likely reasons for the wording and that this was at worst an inadvertent byproduct of a rule with another intent, or something that is a complete misunderstanding of the rule and there is nothing at all to do with the flag. Let's face it, if you want to ban someone carrying a rainbow flag over the line a rile that says 'no rainbow flags over the line' would seem a way better way to word it.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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I think the answer to that goes well beyond what can be discussed at this forum. It's akin to my religion is better than yours and my God is the one and only. So I will leave it here is you don't mind.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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I wish I could draw a cartoon I have in my head. Someone breaking the tape in the 100 meters or standing on a podium with a medal and looking back to see the media attention with cameras and microphones focused on a group of athletes smiling proudly with various huge flags.... "free palastine", "fair trade for all", "free Tibet", "Pro choice", "stop animal testing", "equal pay" , "recovering addicts", "feed the hungry", "democracy for all"....

The article angle makes it look like lgbt is unfairly singled out under a loophole but the existing rule already included that to be fair to other causes that have been asked the same forever. Isnt this the safest way to keep sport welcoming to athletes and spectators from the widely diverse backgrounds while keeping focus on the competition?
Last edited by: lacticturkey: Jan 21, 19 3:00
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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ecce-homo wrote:
I think the answer to that goes well beyond what can be discussed at this forum. It's akin to my religion is better than yours and my God is the one and only. So I will leave it here is you don't mind.

Good, because you've been trying to bait me into saying something I wasn't saying for about three back-and-forths. Either you believe people have certain rights or you don't, and if it's up to the whims of a country you don't believe people have those rights. It sounds like you fall into the latter camp, but I suppose we'll never know.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Alvin Tostig] [ In reply to ]
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Alvin Tostig wrote:
len wrote:

The whole thing is a swamp. On the front page the argument is made that the pride flag should be allowed because some groups are less privileged than others. In the shifting sands of societal acceptance who gets to decide? Are polygamist flags not allowed today but tomorrow okay? On a university campus these days advancing certain traditional ideas would get you ostracized for sure.

Most people can see the difference between someone grabbing a US (or other national) flag, a "Roll Tide" banner, or a rainbow scarf vs. taking a swastika, a Confederate flag, a poster advocating polygamy, or a billboard plugging Ford (or Chevy) pickup trucks and running down the finish chute with it.

However, ITU probably needs to go with the "One guy pooped his pants so everyone will wear diapers in the future" approach. Allow nothing other than your tri suit, helmet/hat, sunglasses, and shoes while you're on the course and during the podium ceremony. "Feel free to wear your MAGA hats and wave your rainbow flags while you're unloading/loading your car in the parking lot, but we're not prepared to be seen as advocating for nor discriminating against any group or organization."

If a major sponsor ever comes on board willing to pony up a few hundred $million, ITU can let athletes wear hats/carry flags with the sponsors logo.


Most people are seeming to come around

Support for polygamy is about twice what it was 15 years ago. Twenty years from now people might be wondering what the hell we were doing celebrating a sport (ITU triathlon) where the average athlete is burning multiples of the average citizens carbon footprint while the UN tells us the climate is tipping on the edge of irreversible change. So easy to be on the right side of history.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Last edited by: len: Jan 21, 19 6:25
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Who does he harm by carrying that flag?

--------

In the same light, how is he or the group he's standing for harmed by now not being allowed to carry the flag? They aren't not being allowed to race are they? They aren't being made to change the person they are. You just can't openly demonstrate your viewpoint in the field of play, but tell me again how that's now keeping you down?

Because it's taking an place away for you to demonstrate your viewpoints?

Help me understand that part of it. When for the whole race you aren't using the event to demonstrate your viewpoints, until the very end, but now because that's being taken away, you arenn't good with just going back to being an "regular" athlete?


Because until recently, they have had to keep that part of them hidden. If they didn't they would be ostracized, physically harmed, even murdered. So being able to express it publicly - and while doing something that they are also proud of - is an important step in welcoming them into society as they always should have been. We have made progress in most Western countries on this issue, but there is still a long way to go and many people who fear living their life openly. So these displays are a message to them that they do not have to feel alone.

That is why it is important for people to be allowed to make these expressions. Banning it is at minimum blocking the progress society is making and preventing further healing to happen
.

Disclaimer, I'm against these rules and I wish everyone could just f*cking race without caring about what anyone else is wearing or doing. But I digress.Looking at this as objectively as possible, I can see both arguments. I'm playing devil's advocate here:

People were persecuted and killed for religious beliefs all throughout history. People have been persecuted and harmed for political reasons also. The ability to express your political feelings or religious feelings can be a proud moment also for many people who have a good moral compass and lead good lives.

So this whole thing is a bit of a double standard if its acceptable to suppress religious and political demonstrations but its oppressive if the LGBTQ can't. Why are their exceptions to the protected? <-- this is where I think most people scratch their heads.

I think this is just bad timing and execution of them introducing this rule amendment to make it an all or none situation. They hold races in all parts of the world, and they're and INTERNATIONAL Triathlon Union, and this seems like them doing due diligence to acknowledge the world holds vastly different beliefs, so they don't want to add fuel to an already blazing fire.

The ITU has never (from what I know) asked people about their beliefs or moral code prior to registering for a race. And they haven't said anyone can't race. So to say they are hindering progress is inaccurate, because they can register, race, and even win without any pushback at all. I think people like B Doughtie just want to know why everyone is OK with the rainbow getting the special treatment when equally as important beliefs like political and religious have been banned much before this new amendment.

If someone wants to argue that the LGBTQ movement takes precedence over religious, political, or other protected issues, then thats different discussion.

I say let them all in.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:

So this whole thing is a bit of a double standard if its acceptable to suppress religious and political demonstrations but its oppressive if the LGBTQ can't. Why are their exceptions to the protected? <-- this is where I think most people scratch their heads.

one of these things is VERY different from the other two... think about it.

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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
len wrote:
The whole thing is a swamp.


i could find exactly one incidence of a rainbow flag at the finish of an ITU race. one.

so, when the ITU makes a rule on the basis of this, the only logical conclusion is that some entity with juice, and that is anti-civil-rights, is making a complaint, and the ITU is giving in to that entity. if that is not the case, fine. but i think the onus is on the ITU to explain, transparently, how this singular issue (that happened in a race in the UK) gave birth to this rule.

if my suspicion is right, then, no, it's not a swamp. it is using sport as a whip, to keep a historically threatened community of people quiet and compliant.

that makes me angry. i hate bullies. no straw men, logical fallacies or whataboutisms will solve this for me.

Dan, they are established as an International union. And they hold races in al parts of the world, is it possible that this seemed like the more prudent thing to do given more participation in areas that are outwardly unaccepting of the LGBTQ community? This amendment could quell the potential issues. We have our set of morals but not everyone shares them. Should we expect them to? Would it be better for the sport to not race in those areas than to disallow religious, sexual preference, or political statements? This is assuming this is the reason for the amendment. I can honestly see them saying "OK, you know what liberal discussion and expression of religion, sex, and politics is not well received in their culture. We already removed religious and political statements in the rules, we may need to add sexual orientation as well to cover all of the bases."

I mentioned in another reply that religion and political opinions were all things that people were historically persecuted for. Bodily harm or death to those, or family members definitely kept people quiet and compliant throughout history as well. Yet the ITU bans statements of those natures. I think some are looking for justification as to why the LGBTQ items get a pass, but religious and political don't.

What should be more important is that they are allowed to send any message before an after the race. Do live facebook feeds, get interviewed, setup your own press coverage, blare music and wear whatever shirt you want and fly whatever flag you want...but before and after the race. And that goes for everyone. I am an open and inclusive person, but I don't see the outrage here.

No-one is being banned from racing, isn't that the bigger message here? Its about being inclusive in the sport, and everyone is allowed to toe the same line, use the same aid stations, and win the same prizes. How is that not inclusive?

As I said before, let them all in.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
Yeeper wrote:


So this whole thing is a bit of a double standard if its acceptable to suppress religious and political demonstrations but its oppressive if the LGBTQ can't. Why are their exceptions to the protected? <-- this is where I think most people scratch their heads.


one of these things is VERY different from the other two... think about it.

You're right, religion is the only federally protected class in that lineup. LGBTQ can be covered under Civil Rights Acts and Political affiliation discrimination is defensible legally as well. But religion is federally protected for us in the US.

If one is more protected than the others then I don't know that and I genuinely don't know how to tell that. Which is why I said that may be a different discussion. Im playing devil's advocate. Why should sexual orientation be given a free pass over religious or political statements? Thats what needs answering for people who don't see an issue with this rule change.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
So this whole thing is a bit of a double standard if its acceptable to suppress religious and political demonstrations but its oppressive if the LGBTQ can't. Why are their exceptions to the protected? <-- this is where I think most people scratch their heads.


I think this may be involved in a larger context. I don't know for sure, because the ITU hasn't talked yet. But I'm speculating it may have to do with some host countries.

The IOC went through an ordeal with Russia during the Sochi Olympics. Russia has been increasingly hostile to gays, using laws (that also use the term "propaganda") to stop dissent. The IOC did what it had to do, which is fight back. And a tenuous peace was established where Russia promised that gay athletes and spectators would not be bothered as long as they didn't act up and do dramatic protests (not just the athletes, like Smith/Carlos - still against IOC rules), but the spectators as well. A promise just for the Olympics. Of course per the Streisand effect, there was a lot of protesting that took place that used the Olympics as a backdrop if not a venue.

I'm sure other countries with social laws and norms dramatically different than the "western standard" took notice. E.g. countries like the UAE that have government laws that impose the death penalty on homosexuality.

There's been plenty of debate on this forum about some of these countries, and whether their sponsorship money should be taken, and competitions be held in those countries. The argument *for* being inclusive of those countries is that sport can help bring change. It brings people together, etc. Show that women can wear bathing suits in public in a sporting context, and maybe it's OK. Or show that gay athletes are mostly just good athletes.

But the direction of that change is important. The change was supposed to be moderating the more regressive tendencies.

But if the change is going the other way, making the governing body conform to the mores of the host country, that's not what was supposed to happen.

If this is the case, I'd prefer the ITU be more like the IOC was with Russia and re-affirm its inclusive stance. Even if that re-affirmation accompanied a re-iteration that competition is not supposed to be used as protest venue.

If it's not the case and this is purely a procedural move that has nothing to with Abu Dhabi, then I've wasted a lot of time!
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
What if we simply celebrate the athlete- not the gay athlete or the straight athlete or the black athlete or the mixed athlete or the slow athlete, but the ATHLETE.

that's exactly what was occurring when jack bristow flew the rainbow flag over his head at Leeds last year. it had everything to do with sport.

being gay is not an affliction, but i'd like to draw a parallel to, say, type 1 diabetes, in that you're anonymous in plain sight. when you wear your team type 1 kit, i think it's in large part to say, "see? you can do THIS and it's safe and it's good and you're welcome here."

how much more so if you've gone through the most basic questions of your own identity, and you're looking for communities in which you can insinuate yourself safely. being gay is not like an affinity group. you're not flying the flag at the finish that says, "narrow gauge railway fans, unite!" i don't mean to speak for the LGBT community, but it means hiding in plain sight from folks who hate you, some who try to kill you, after you spent a good part of your early years hiding from yourself, perhaps hating yourself.

this just didn't need to be done. this was like making a rule against running backwards in all ITU races that take place on thursdays: a rule was made for an almost nonexistent occurrence. i therefore think that this is a process that ought to see some sunlight. how and why was this rule made? if you find this rule was made in order to placate an oppressive regime, are you still good with it?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know for sure, because the ITU hasn't talked yet.

---------

I'm unsure of the rush to make a social commentary point w/ Dan's article, when the actual meat of the discussion isn't even known. Isn't that a "rush to judgement" that most reasonable people are against.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I don't know for sure, because the ITU hasn't talked yet.

---------

I'm unsure of the rush to make a social commentary point w/ Dan's article, when the actual meat of the discussion isn't even known. Isn't that a "rush to judgement" that most reasonable people are against.



Nature abhors a vacuum. :) And so far, that's what the ITU has given us.
Last edited by: trail: Jan 21, 19 7:39
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [trail] [ In reply to ]
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When did Mike Pence get elected to the ITU Board?
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [trail] [ In reply to ]
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People are overreacting here. The best way to represent your cause is by how you live your life everyday and not some bullshit 30 second flag display at a sporting event. There are 24 hours in a day and 365 days in a year so if that’s not enough for you then go complain on the internet,
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Gonefishin5555] [ In reply to ]
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Gonefishin5555 wrote:
People are overreacting here. The best way to represent your cause is by how you live your life everyday and not some bullshit 30 second flag display at a sporting event.


The government of Abu Dhabi approves this message. :) Put your head down and just go about your business.
Last edited by: trail: Jan 21, 19 7:47
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Gonefishin5555] [ In reply to ]
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Sport has a long history of excluding groups of people based in gender, race and sexual orientation. Making this rule is going in the wrong direction.

And whether this is the "best" way to express who you are or not doesn't matter. The question is are we being welcoming and inclusive or are we being exclusive and repressive? Which do we want to be?

Simply representing this cause by "how you live your life" gets nothing done at all. Members of the LGBTQ community are very often not identifiable by sight. They have to do something if they want to make an impact even if it is just for themselves. And if they want to contribute to making members of that community being accepted in our sport, there has to be a way to express it, if they choose. And when they do choose to express it, we should say, "Hey! We're glad you're here!" not, "SHHHHH! Keep that to yourself!"

-------------
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www.VeloVetta.com
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
religion is the only federally protected class in that lineup.

the lineup does not include other federally protected groups. women as an example. in my mind, LGBT is more closely associated with gender than with, say, religion. gender is not mentioned in this list of things you can't protest against, nor physical disability? why? because sport goes out of its way to enfranchise these two groups that have been historically discriminated against, not just in society, but on the field of play. so...

if i said, "why does it have to be about women? why can't it just be about sport?" i would get flayed, and rightly so. the LGBT community is freighted with much that has depressed female participation in sport, without all the other issues that attach to being a part of this community.

in sum, the ITU has chosen which underrepresented groups to enfranchise, and i'm glad it did. with this rule change it chose which group not to enfranchise.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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I’m boycotting ITU. It’ll be easy too since I’m too fat, slow, and poor to participate anyway...

I still lapped everyone on the couch!
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I'm in agreement with you. I replied to Dan asking whether or not they may have taken these host countries' beliefs into account and the well-being of the athletes.


I also agree the direction of change is important, also the rationale for the change. However, it seems like its a bad direction of change if it is motivated by the norms of these non-western countries regarding the LGBTQ. Yet its a good direction of change regarding the religious and political bans because it originated somewhere else that aligns more with western thinking? Again, that seems like a double standard.

The argument *for* being inclusive of those countries is that sport can help bring change. It brings people together, etc. Show that women can wear bathing suits in public in a sporting context, and maybe it's OK. Or show that gay athletes are mostly just good athletes. "

Sport can definitely bring a good change, bring people together, and is usually the go to for things like bridging a gap, specifically because it is sport and nothing else. The neutrality brings people together. The athletics do the talking, not the age, race, gender, sexual preference, religion etc. It is used because it is neutral and holds no opinions. This is exactly what B Doughtie's argument is. Let sport be sport. Thats really an arguments supporting the idea that no personal demonstrations be allowed.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I can understand the view. However, what concerns me is that if I'm suggesting we take out all the social commentary in sports, and just let it be a competition, that I'm in favor of only being "welcoming" of certain segments with that viewpoint????? That when I read ITU's ruling, to me it sounds like as I said to the other gentleman, they are simply getting rid of demonstrations A-Z, but somehow only X group is being "oppressed"?

"Stick to sports" has been the rallying cry to silence dissenting viewpoints for decades. It was shouted at Muhammed Ali half a century ago and now he's praised as a civil rights leader. It was shouted at the St Louis Rams players running out of the tunnel in the "hands up/ don't shoot" pose (so without even the bad excuse of "but are chroooooops!"). It is, pointedly, never shouted at those using their platform to advocate for the status quo. It was not shouted at Alejandro Villanueva who abandoned his teammates to run out of the tunnel for the anthem. He didn't want to "stick to sports"; he wanted to make a statement. Where was the outrage? Crickets. No one complains about the NFL taking a bath in Pepto-Bismol every October, even though that's not sports (however fine a cause it is).

This is the root of the problem. Displays of entrenched and status quo viewpoints are viewed differently from displays or marginalized viewpoints. The inclusion of women and non-whites in a sport is obvious - Jackie Robinson "made a statement" by stepping out onto the field. The inclusion of LGBTQ is not so obvious, and that serves to keep that group disenfranchised. Back to the NFL, do you believe there are no gay players in that league? The notion is preposterous, but those who are there keep it secret because no one wants to be the first to come out and deal with the flak for "making a statement" of publicly being himself. Bristow (I think that was his name) carrying that flag across the line was "making the statement" of "you are not alone". The fact that the organizing body was bothered enough by that one, singe display to change the rule does come off as a chilling effect on gay athletes acknowledging their sexuality.

Further, "stick to sports" is a standard only ever applied to sports and athletes (and especially liberal athletes). There is no "stick to banking", "stick to oil", or "stick to baking". This is because the relatively equal distribution of physical talent makes sports the one public platform most available to minorities of all sorts. As a result, the powers that be invented a standard applied only to athletics (and only when used for liberal causes) to squelch its availability for that purpose.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeeper wrote:
I also agree the direction of change is important, also the rationale for the change. However, it seems like its a bad direction of change if it is motivated by the norms of these non-western countries regarding the LGBTQ. Yet its a good direction of change regarding the religious and political bans because it originated somewhere else that aligns more with western thinking? Again, that seems like a double standard.


The idea that the rule is respecting the morals of non-Western countries, and objecting to this rule is forcing western values on non-western societies is I think incorrect.

I think that no matter where in the world you are, or what a majority of the people in that community believe, or what the government requires, making it illegal to be gay is objectively wrong. That's not a Western moral. It's a universal truth. But people are fallible and some communities are more wrong about this issue than others. Some - including ones that are embracing triathlon and exerting their influence on the sport, are so wrong that the punishment for being gay is DEATH. We cannot just say , eh... we need to respect their local values on this.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Last edited by: RowToTri: Jan 21, 19 8:20
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeeper wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
Yeeper wrote:


So this whole thing is a bit of a double standard if its acceptable to suppress religious and political demonstrations but its oppressive if the LGBTQ can't. Why are their exceptions to the protected? <-- this is where I think most people scratch their heads.


one of these things is VERY different from the other two... think about it.


You're right, religion is the only federally protected class in that lineup. LGBTQ can be covered under Civil Rights Acts and Political affiliation discrimination is defensible legally as well. But religion is federally protected for us in the US.

If one is more protected than the others then I don't know that and I genuinely don't know how to tell that. Which is why I said that may be a different discussion. Im playing devil's advocate. Why should sexual orientation be given a free pass over religious or political statements? Thats what needs answering for people who don't see an issue with this rule change.

That matters, but not in the direction that you think it does.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Toby] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Further, "stick to sports" is a standard only ever applied to sports and athletes (and especially liberal athletes).

------------

Well what I'm saying is that who's to say X is honorable social justice to burn ITU at the stake, but Y social justice issue is ok'd to be "silenced"? So what if we just silence it all? That way everyone is either "oppressed" or no one is oppressed (will depend on how you view it) and so you can't then come back and say well your for X and against Y. Can we not just have it down the middle where we are neither for or against X or Y during the game and then after the fact we can talk all we want about it?

Is that only an oppressive viewpoint to take to say let's enjoy the sport for the sport itself?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Toby] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Toby wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
Yeeper wrote:


So this whole thing is a bit of a double standard if its acceptable to suppress religious and political demonstrations but its oppressive if the LGBTQ can't. Why are their exceptions to the protected? <-- this is where I think most people scratch their heads.


one of these things is VERY different from the other two... think about it.


You're right, religion is the only federally protected class in that lineup. LGBTQ can be covered under Civil Rights Acts and Political affiliation discrimination is defensible legally as well. But religion is federally protected for us in the US.

If one is more protected than the others then I don't know that and I genuinely don't know how to tell that. Which is why I said that may be a different discussion. Im playing devil's advocate. Why should sexual orientation be given a free pass over religious or political statements? Thats what needs answering for people who don't see an issue with this rule change.


That matters, but not in the direction that you think it does.

I've clearly stated my stance on this. I hate that this has to even be an issue. But in playing devils advocate, I've gotten two of these cryptic responses. Those in opposition to this new rule amendment are not making a strong argument.

With regards to LGBTQ being allowed to make statements, but not religion or politics, please tell me in which way it matters then?

EricM told me they are VERY different and I should think about it. Rather than telling me. I'm asking legitimate questions because its really easy to see how one class is getting a pass while others are not. If I could see that then I wouldn't be posing the question. This is why I can understand those who don't have an issue with the new amendment.
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeeper wrote:
Toby wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
Yeeper wrote:


So this whole thing is a bit of a double standard if its acceptable to suppress religious and political demonstrations but its oppressive if the LGBTQ can't. Why are their exceptions to the protected? <-- this is where I think most people scratch their heads.


one of these things is VERY different from the other two... think about it.


You're right, religion is the only federally protected class in that lineup. LGBTQ can be covered under Civil Rights Acts and Political affiliation discrimination is defensible legally as well. But religion is federally protected for us in the US.

If one is more protected than the others then I don't know that and I genuinely don't know how to tell that. Which is why I said that may be a different discussion. Im playing devil's advocate. Why should sexual orientation be given a free pass over religious or political statements? Thats what needs answering for people who don't see an issue with this rule change.


That matters, but not in the direction that you think it does.


I've clearly stated my stance on this. I hate that this has to even be an issue. But in playing devils advocate, I've gotten two of these cryptic responses. Those in opposition to this new rule amendment are not making a strong argument.

With regards to LGBTQ being allowed to make statements, but not religion or politics, please tell me in which way it matters then?

EricM told me they are VERY different and I should think about it. Rather than telling me. I'm asking legitimate questions because its really easy to see how one class is getting a pass while others are not. If I could see that then I wouldn't be posing the question. This is why I can understand those who don't have an issue with the new amendment.

It matters in that you appear to be making an argument based on the status quo ("LGBTQ is not a federally-protected category, therefor it's fine to discriminate against them"). Our point is "LGBTQ is not a federally-protected category, therefor we need to advocate for their rights lest they be casually discriminated against in all aspects of life". And again, these rules are never (functionally never) applied equally; they are applied to the weakest groups and ignored for the strongest.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Do you see gay rights or other politics signs being displayed at the nfl games yesterday? Why is that? Because it’s banned by the NFL. Why don’t you start a protest against the nfl? The game is viewed by way more people than any triathlon will ever be. My point was that there is still plenty of opportunities and ways for athletes to display their pride if they want to. Hell even a gay nfl player can probably think of a lot of ways to support his community and gay rights without being allowed to wear rainbow cleats in the game.
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
B_Doughtie wrote:
if it's trying to remove all the politics out of the field of play.

Impossible in a union of national federations.
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
religion is the only federally protected class in that lineup.


the lineup does not include other federally protected groups. women as an example. in my mind, LGBT is more closely associated with gender than with, say, religion. gender is not mentioned in this list of things you can't protest against, nor physical disability? why? because sport goes out of its way to enfranchise these two groups that have been historically discriminated against, not just in society, but on the field of play. so...

if i said, "why does it have to be about women? why can't it just be about sport?" i would get flayed, and rightly so. the LGBT community is freighted with much that has depressed female participation in sport, without all the other issues that attach to being a part of this community.

in sum, the ITU has chosen which underrepresented groups to enfranchise, and i'm glad it did. with this rule change it chose which group not to enfranchise.

I might be able to see that argument, but that is an opinion that it is "more closely associated" with X vs Y. However, neither of those examples of groups have proven to be an inflammatory issue in the sense that statements need to be made. Thus far, religion, politics, and apparently gay pride seem to be the most inflammatory issues so they are the ones focused on. If something else arises in the future, say statements regarding women or athletes with disabilities then I'm sure amendments will be made also. And as long as these groups are allowed to race, and everyone has to play by the same rules, then whats the issue?

These groups are not being singled out. Because I could enter the race and even though I'm not gay, have a political agenda, or religious message to shout, I'm not allowed to bear flags or make statements either. And I'm not part of these groups. These groups are not being singled out. Everyone has to play by the same rules whether you identify as a member of these groups or not. And if they changed the rule and said everyone can wear whatever they want, then I could race by those new rules.

Bottom line, everyone is still allowed to race. What we're talking about is the luxury of being able to wear something that makes a statement. Would it be easier if the ITU said only non-modified uniforms are allowed? Everyone has to wear the same one and only 4 colors are available, take your pick. Does this solve an issue?

If you said why does it have to be about women, I would agree. Everyone out there is level on the same playing field. I worked closely with a group of athletes with disabilities whose main goal was to mainstream participation of those with disabilities into the same race as non-disabled racers. Racing as a charity member for this group was my very first triathlon, been hooked since. Their goal is to eliminate the need to see them in a different light, no barriers, but that they get to participate as much as possible without highlighting their "differences." It shouldn't be about women, or gays, or green party, or amputee, etc,...it should be about the sport. And when someone comes out and singles one of them out then it can be seen as harsh, but when someone comes out and says, everyone is equal, everyone is allowed to participate, just have a good time and don't make it about something else, then whats wrong with that?

Telling the LGBTQ racer to not wave a flag during the race is seen as oppressive. But telling the born again christian who's faith saved their life to not carry a bible or flag with a cross on it is acceptable? I don't see the fairness there. Either allow them all, or allow none. How can it not be seen that way?

If someone can eloquently tell me how and why the LGBTQ community should be allowed the exception to wave a flag instead of the devout religious or career politician, then I can no longer play devil's advocate.

Is it because their persecution has been much more recent in history? Is it something else? Thank you.
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Gonefishin5555] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I didn't see any protests at any football games because I do not watch football. I have no idea about their rules regarding expressions of support for the LGBTQ community.

Are you saying that if the NFL does it, then the tri community should do it too? Because that means we should allow broad categories of doping that are banned by WADA. We should ban any testing for the substances that remain illegal. We should turn a blind eye to terrible violence committed by our athletes if they are fast enough unless the public outcry threatens our pocketbooks. Yes... Let's use the NFL as model for our sport. Sounds awesome.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeeper wrote:
These groups are not being singled out. Everyone has to play by the same rules whether you identify as a member of these groups or not.

But that's not true. Women are not included on that list. The disabled are not included on that list. This list is very finite and limited. They ARE picking who is allowed to make a statement and who is not. This is not a "ban all statements" rule.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
ripple wrote:
You don't owe anyone any participation in a religious observation prior to a race, I don't give a shit if you're racing in downtown Cairo, Jerusalem, anywhere. Any such event or observation should be quite clearly optional and never compulsory. People need to get politics, religion, and agendas out of sports, especially sports like "adult participation events" where there will be people of all backgrounds and convicitions. It only serves to cause issues. You either can't allow any or you have to allow them all. It's easiest if people would just focus on the task at hand.. racing. Or participating, whatever.

i don't disagree with you. i just don't think this rises to the level of a lavender room food fight. i was at a gravel race last year and i saw a guy after the race with a MAGA hat. oh, the horror! then he and i had a great conversation, and we emerged friends (tho i don't share his political persuasion). i believe what you wrote: "easiest if people would just focus on the task at hand." there is way more that binds us in sport than separates us. best to focus on that, and to not stumble over idiosyncrasies.

which is why the ITU's rule change here causes us WAY more problems than it solves: it's a solution to a pretty much nonexistent problem. it simply highlights the fact our sport discriminates based on sexual preference in certain countries, and our solution to that is to memorialize in the rules the closeting of one's gay status.

Totally agree this rule causes more problems then it solves
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeeper wrote:
Slowman wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
religion is the only federally protected class in that lineup.


the lineup does not include other federally protected groups. women as an example. in my mind, LGBT is more closely associated with gender than with, say, religion. gender is not mentioned in this list of things you can't protest against, nor physical disability? why? because sport goes out of its way to enfranchise these two groups that have been historically discriminated against, not just in society, but on the field of play. so...

if i said, "why does it have to be about women? why can't it just be about sport?" i would get flayed, and rightly so. the LGBT community is freighted with much that has depressed female participation in sport, without all the other issues that attach to being a part of this community.

in sum, the ITU has chosen which underrepresented groups to enfranchise, and i'm glad it did. with this rule change it chose which group not to enfranchise.


I might be able to see that argument, but that is an opinion that it is "more closely associated" with X vs Y. However, neither of those examples of groups have proven to be an inflammatory issue in the sense that statements need to be made. Thus far, religion, politics, and apparently gay pride seem to be the most inflammatory issues so they are the ones focused on. If something else arises in the future, say statements regarding women or athletes with disabilities then I'm sure amendments will be made also. And as long as these groups are allowed to race, and everyone has to play by the same rules, then whats the issue?

These groups are not being singled out. Because I could enter the race and even though I'm not gay, have a political agenda, or religious message to shout, I'm not allowed to bear flags or make statements either. And I'm not part of these groups. These groups are not being singled out. Everyone has to play by the same rules whether you identify as a member of these groups or not. And if they changed the rule and said everyone can wear whatever they want, then I could race by those new rules.

Bottom line, everyone is still allowed to race. What we're talking about is the luxury of being able to wear something that makes a statement. Would it be easier if the ITU said only non-modified uniforms are allowed? Everyone has to wear the same one and only 4 colors are available, take your pick. Does this solve an issue?

If you said why does it have to be about women, I would agree. Everyone out there is level on the same playing field. I worked closely with a group of athletes with disabilities whose main goal was to mainstream participation of those with disabilities into the same race as non-disabled racers. Racing as a charity member for this group was my very first triathlon, been hooked since. Their goal is to eliminate the need to see them in a different light, no barriers, but that they get to participate as much as possible without highlighting their "differences." It shouldn't be about women, or gays, or green party, or amputee, etc,...it should be about the sport. And when someone comes out and singles one of them out then it can be seen as harsh, but when someone comes out and says, everyone is equal, everyone is allowed to participate, just have a good time and don't make it about something else, then whats wrong with that?

Telling the LGBTQ racer to not wave a flag during the race is seen as oppressive. But telling the born again christian who's faith saved their life to not carry a bible or flag with a cross on it is acceptable? I don't see the fairness there. Either allow them all, or allow none. How can it not be seen that way?

If someone can eloquently tell me how and why the LGBTQ community should be allowed the exception to wave a flag instead of the devout religious or career politician, then I can no longer play devil's advocate.

Is it because their persecution has been much more recent in history? Is it something else? Thank you.

i believe i absolutely understand the argument you're making, and i understand its merits. but you don't understand the argument we're making. i can't imagine what each of us might learn if one of the arguments made is just not understood. and i can't imagine what might be written to help you better understand it. first you must want to understand it. you don't have to agree with it. but if you have no interest in understanding it, we're sort of at an impasse.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Toby] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Toby wrote:

It matters in that you appear to be making an argument based on the status quo ("LGBTQ is not a federally-protected category, therefor it's fine to discriminate against them"). Our point is "LGBTQ is not a federally-protected category, therefor we need to advocate for their rights lest they be casually discriminated against in all aspects of life". And again, these rules are never (functionally never) applied equally; they are applied to the weakest groups and ignored for the strongest.


Ah ok I see what you meant. First and foremost, I never said that it was OK to discriminate against anyone. Those quotes make it seem like I said that. Farthest thing from my points.

Thats also not what I was getting at with my replies. My point was that the rule specifies groups that have been all been discriminated against, and IN THIS SITUATION there is no uproar that it includes a group that is federally protected by a legal system. There is a lot of support to allow people with a specific sexual preference to be able to go untouched while no-one is batting an eye over someones religious beliefs. That part is puzzling to me. I would expect people who fear for the continued discrimination of groups be more sympathetic to ALL groups being subjected to this abhorrent discrimination.

I'm not saying its ok to discriminate because of X Y and Z. Im saying it can be tough to even see discrimination when the rule in question is regarding objects and symbols of things not germane to the sport, and applied across the board while still allowing everyone to participate.

This whole thing begs the question, "What is it about the LGBTQ community that should allow them more freedom in the rules than other discriminated classes?"
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeeper wrote:
This whole thing begs the question, "What is it about the LGBTQ community that should allow them more freedom in the rules than other discriminated classes?"

thank you for asking that question. we've been answering that question intermittently in this thread. what we need is for you to read what we're saying, so that you can answer that question.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
i believe i absolutely understand the argument you're making, and i understand its merits. but you don't understand the argument we're making. i can't imagine what each of us might learn if one of the arguments made is just not understood. and i can't imagine what might be written to help you better understand it. first you must want to understand it. you don't have to agree with it. but if you have no interest in understanding it, we're sort of at an impasse.



I'm not trying to be obtuse by any means. I apologize if its come off that way. I also have no dog in this fight, other than I want a clean and fun race opportunity.

I do want to understand the issue. I consider myself a man of principle, and I like to know the reasons for certain things. So my real question for this whole debate is what makes discriminated groups different? Or more importantly what makes one more deserving of rights than another? Thats all I'm asking.

If it helps, I would be asking the same questions and playing the same devil's advocate if it was religion that was being argued, but not sex, or politics. Or if it was people with brown hair, but not blue hair or red hair. Do you see what I'm saying? Effectively, there is argument for support of one discriminated class, while at the same time saying that another discriminated class doesn't deserve the same support. Its confusing to me.
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeeper wrote:
Toby wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
Yeeper wrote:


So this whole thing is a bit of a double standard if its acceptable to suppress religious and political demonstrations but its oppressive if the LGBTQ can't. Why are their exceptions to the protected? <-- this is where I think most people scratch their heads.


one of these things is VERY different from the other two... think about it.


You're right, religion is the only federally protected class in that lineup. LGBTQ can be covered under Civil Rights Acts and Political affiliation discrimination is defensible legally as well. But religion is federally protected for us in the US.

If one is more protected than the others then I don't know that and I genuinely don't know how to tell that. Which is why I said that may be a different discussion. Im playing devil's advocate. Why should sexual orientation be given a free pass over religious or political statements? Thats what needs answering for people who don't see an issue with this rule change.


That matters, but not in the direction that you think it does.


I've clearly stated my stance on this. I hate that this has to even be an issue. But in playing devils advocate, I've gotten two of these cryptic responses. Those in opposition to this new rule amendment are not making a strong argument.

With regards to LGBTQ being allowed to make statements, but not religion or politics, please tell me in which way it matters then?

EricM told me they are VERY different and I should think about it. Rather than telling me. I'm asking legitimate questions because its really easy to see how one class is getting a pass while others are not. If I could see that then I wouldn't be posing the question. This is why I can understand those who don't have an issue with the new amendment.

Let me try and address your point as I see where you are coming from.

Why the ITU needs the rule to say anything more than 'athletes need to avoid any kind of demonstration of propoganda'? Doesn't that cover everything? Why add words like political or racial? I don't know the answer but by specifying political, racial, religious and sexual orientation you are singling out those aspects and lumping them together as bad. Gender propoganda, food propaganda (think vegans vs keto-diet), climate change propaganda, etc. that stuff is all OK according to the ITU. So what is about race, politics, religion and sexual orientation that are uniquely bad? More to the point what about sexual orientation necessitates its inclusion as needing to be specifically banned?

What myself and others are angry about is not that LGBTQ issues are being put on level footing with to religious or political issues. The anger is direct at the need to designated LGBTQ issues as 'bad' in the first palce. A coherent argument needs to be presented for why each activity is banned and we don't feel that argument can be justified for sexual orientation.

The simple solution is to replace the word propoganda with prejudice. The law should read 'athletes need to avoid any kind of demonstration of religious, political, sexual identity or racial prejudice.' In fact this could be a big win for the ITU as it would position itself as a defender of equality.
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RowToTri wrote:
I didn't see any protests at any football games because I do not watch football. I have no idea about their rules regarding expressions of support for the LGBTQ community.

Are you saying that if the NFL does it, then the tri community should do it too? Because that means we should allow broad categories of doping that are banned by WADA. We should ban any testing for the substances that remain illegal. We should turn a blind eye to terrible violence committed by our athletes if they are fast enough unless the public outcry threatens our pocketbooks. Yes... Let's use the NFL as model for our sport. Sounds awesome.

I know I posted about Teebow and Colin earlier, but that's still different. They are employees. Entrants paying for a race are a bit different.

You'd have to claim essentially that the anthem in football is part of their pay as a paid entertainment performer. As I get it, that part wasn't ever mandatory or even televised a long time ago. But, turned into a platform for patriotism, national pride, honoring troops, honoring responders, etc.... Thus, making it pretty much non-PC to choose to not participate.

With the ITU, maybe the pros you could see as independent contractors. Even then, it's a stretch.

If it's a private organization, they can limit the speech. They can't limit entrants using discrimination, but that's how it is.

Otherwise, how could places like Fox have the opinion piece folks they have? If you had to respect that in that organization you essentially couldn't fire or would be forced to consider hiring a liberal for the opinion section. Thus alienating their base and risking financial loss.

It's not ideal, feels really unfair, and I don't like it one bit..........but that's how it is in the US.

We gave a lot of power to companies in the late 1860s during the railroad strikes that ran across the country. And power to local/state/feds to do a lot of stuff we see today. All in the interest of "capital" and not "people".

That's the "why" if anyone cares to do anything about it.
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm not sure I understand the point of this post, or which which side of the debate the point is supporting....

I do believe that much of it applies to the US, not the wider world. In the US, private companies actually CAN deny entry to certain classes of people as long as that does not include protected classes, like race or religion. Currently in the US you can deny service to someone due to their sexual orientation.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Quote Reply
Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeeper wrote:
Toby wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
Yeeper wrote:


So this whole thing is a bit of a double standard if its acceptable to suppress religious and political demonstrations but its oppressive if the LGBTQ can't. Why are their exceptions to the protected? <-- this is where I think most people scratch their heads.


one of these things is VERY different from the other two... think about it.


You're right, religion is the only federally protected class in that lineup. LGBTQ can be covered under Civil Rights Acts and Political affiliation discrimination is defensible legally as well. But religion is federally protected for us in the US.

If one is more protected than the others then I don't know that and I genuinely don't know how to tell that. Which is why I said that may be a different discussion. Im playing devil's advocate. Why should sexual orientation be given a free pass over religious or political statements? Thats what needs answering for people who don't see an issue with this rule change.


That matters, but not in the direction that you think it does.


I've clearly stated my stance on this. I hate that this has to even be an issue. But in playing devils advocate, I've gotten two of these cryptic responses. Those in opposition to this new rule amendment are not making a strong argument.

With regards to LGBTQ being allowed to make statements, but not religion or politics, please tell me in which way it matters then?

EricM told me they are VERY different and I should think about it. Rather than telling me. I'm asking legitimate questions because its really easy to see how one class is getting a pass while others are not. If I could see that then I wouldn't be posing the question. This is why I can understand those who don't have an issue with the new amendment.

you're being obtuse

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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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I would argue that certain religions should not be protected classes in the first place.

RowToTri wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the point of this post, or which which side of the debate the point is supporting....

I do believe that much of it applies to the US, not the wider world. In the US, private companies actually CAN deny entry to certain classes of people as long as that does not include protected classes, like race or religion. Currently in the US you can deny service to someone due to their sexual orientation.

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Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
i believe i absolutely understand the argument you're making, and i understand its merits. but you don't understand the argument we're making. i can't imagine what each of us might learn if one of the arguments made is just not understood. and i can't imagine what might be written to help you better understand it. first you must want to understand it. you don't have to agree with it. but if you have no interest in understanding it, we're sort of at an impasse.

I'm not trying to be obtuse by any means. I apologize if its come off that way. I also have no dog in this fight, other than I want a clean and fun race opportunity.

I do want to understand the issue. I consider myself a man of principle, and I like to know the reasons for certain things. So my real question for this whole debate is what makes discriminated groups different? Or more importantly what makes one more deserving of rights than another? Thats all I'm asking.

If it helps, I would be asking the same questions and playing the same devil's advocate if it was religion that was being argued, but not sex, or politics. Or if it was people with brown hair, but not blue hair or red hair. Do you see what I'm saying? Effectively, there is argument for support of one discriminated class, while at the same time saying that another discriminated class doesn't deserve the same support. Its confusing to me.

let me see if i can distill this. religions come and go. tribes come and go. (any goths out there? is there a pictish triathlon club?) there are 3 groups of people who don't come and go - who, throughout history, just about everywhere, with few exceptions, are harangued, diminished, looked on with disdain or are the subjects of violence: women; physically disabled; and those we're considering now. we have identified 2 of those groups in sport and have said to the world, no, you cannot disenfranchise these. that is, you can disenfranchise them in your country for 364 days. just not during that day when we come into your country to produce a race.

you will never see the NFL or the NBA or the ITU write or say a damned thing about "propaganda" regarding challenged athletes or women. you'll see pink armbands, shoes, shoelaces, headbands. and rightly so. and no, it's not because it's cancer. it's because it's a specific cancer that predominantly afflicts our women. we have chosen to champion and lift up 2 of the 3 historic groups that need specific help.

yes, if you are gay, you may participate in a triathlon. if you remain silent. invisible. closeted. if you make double darn sure that we don't know you're gay, then you may participate. this is the insidiousness of it. we do absolutely nothing, zero, to let the world know that here, in triathlon, there's a safe harbor for the LGBT community. and because one person, once, in an ITU race, flew a rainbow flag at the finish of an AG race, we've now come up with THIS rule, which doesn't say "don't fly a flag." it says, be careful of the color of your shoelaces. too much color? DQ. rainbow sticker on your bike's top tube? DQ. you may say that no, the rule doesn't say that. really? reread the rule.

what i want is for a gay man to come to a triathlon and know that he's found a safe harbor. we need to make special protections for him. we need to send a special invitation to him. because we made a special effort to let us know how much he wasn't wanted throughout history (and i mean up to the very recent history, and still today). we've made it mandatory that he stay silent. we need to cure that. this is our gap to close.

here is what i *think* i have learned as president of our industry group, traveling around talking to people in groups not represented sufficiently in triathlon (black, hispanic, women, gay, gen-y, etc.). it's not enough for the old white men to invite young white men. or women. or gay or black people. into triathlon. women need to invite women. black people need to invite black people. and so forth. this is what works. we need to empower people who aren't us (white men) to invite people in their cohort. men don't empower women. women empower women. men just need to get out of the way.

how do you allow LGBT community members to empower each other? invite each other? let each other know this is where you'll find safe harbor? how does this rule do that? how do we do that in spite of this rule? you tell me.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Being Gay is not a choice. Religion is.

Same as skin/hair/eye colour. You can't ban or discriminate against those and you can't (shouldn't) ban and discriminate against sexual orientation. The world stage is the place to be open about it. The world stage is where this sort of statement belongs.

NCCP certified Comp coach
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
how do you allow LGBT community members to empower each other? invite each other? let each other know this is where you'll find safe harbor? how does this rule do that? how do we do that in spite of this rule? you tell me.


Just ignore the rule and let your freak (not meant as derrogatory) flag fly. Wear rainbow socks, paint your bike a rainbow, have sponsors change their logos to rainbows, have RDs have rainbow water cups at aid stations, give out skittles, get DQed until they address it.

Use this link to save $5 off your USAT membership renewal:
https://membership.usatriathlon.org/...A2-BAD7-6137B629D9B7
Last edited by: AlyraD: Jan 21, 19 11:13
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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The whole religious/political protest thing likely came about as a result of the finish of the Olympic marathon in Rio (I forget the specifics whether it was a flag, an armband or a salute in that incident, but the jist was that ultimately the athlete had to seek asylum to not return home where there was a fair chance that he would be executed...)...

How the sexual orientation line item got amended into the rule this year I have no idea, other than that some could argue that in several countries it could indeed be a political statement. I know that since the political protest rule came in, there may have been incidents at races, where people have grabbed Pride flags or protest banners relating to sexual orientation crossing the finish line, that have led to some people in attendance pressure to have this rule applied. In the cases that I am aware of, the head referee did not issue a DSQ. In a discussion with a number of officials, there was not a unanimous consensus as to how the rule would apply to such cases, this uncertainty may have contributed to why this was explicitly included in the rule?

The arguments about colors on the race suit are moot, given ITU uniform rules, in order to get into the whole pride rainbow situation, it would literally have to be the countries official kit design (which if it were to happen, would be an incredibly fascinating situation to see whether the kit was or wasn't approved). Now in terms of sponsor logo spaces, with sponsors potentially being religious or politically minded groups, I have no idea what might happen here, currently the only logos that are banned are companies producing tobacco, spirits or products containing substances on the WADA banned list, so based on that, my guess would be nothing at the moment (the next revision will be after the Tokyo games in 2020, so it'll be interesting to see what happens between now and then). In terms of grabbing a flag at the finish, I personally see no issue with that (political protest banners relating to sexual orientation on the other hand are already covered by the prior rule), although could see the political protest angle on it if said race were in a country where it was illegal. It'll be interesting to see how this is applied in the coming season.

So I'm not sure that this rule actually changes that much. I can certainly see how the wording raises some eyebrows, but in terms of how things are officiated, I suspect very little will change. What the wording will do is provide some clarity to competition juries, should there be any decisions in races against this rule, and protests or appeals relating to them.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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you talking about this?

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/2016-rio-summer-olympics/feyisa-lilesa-ethiopian-runner-makes-defiant-protest-gesture-rio-olympics-n635761

Use this link to save $5 off your USAT membership renewal:
https://membership.usatriathlon.org/...A2-BAD7-6137B629D9B7
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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Trauma wrote:
So I'm not sure that this rule actually changes that much. I can certainly see how the wording raises some eyebrows, but in terms of how things are officiated, I suspect very little will change. What the wording will do is provide some clarity to competition juries, should there be any decisions in races against this rule, and protests or appeals relating to them.

in one sense, of course it won't change much, because there's nothing to change! other than this 1 case i point out, where has there been any case of a sexual orientation "progagandist" display that would fall under the purview of this rule? so, as well as i can tell, this rule take the 1 case of this in the ITU's 30 year history and reduces it to 0 cases. you're right. it won't change much. but in another way...

this rule will change everything. in a good way. here's my prediction: the ITU will walk this all the way back. but the "damage" is done, and we're going to see an outpouring of support for the LGBT community in triathlon. you watch. we'll see if i'm right.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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I actually only used rainbow flag in protest at one race. It was at the Raleigh 70.3 in 2016 because it was the height of the HB2 issue here in NC and I live here. I also had a newspaper article about my foundation that weekend and had high visibility at two races that weekend so I used it. Otherwise, my rainbow kit, rainbow Mohawk, rainbow tutu were all originally meant to represent EVERYONE I was racing for that was battling cancer. There are many colors used to represent different kinds of cancer and my foundation name is Dream In COLOR.... get it. I had nothing but praise all weekend from hundreds of athletes and folks everywhere I went and I helped educate and raise thousands of dollars that weekend and 100% went to family battling cancer. I also did not just grad the flag at finish line, I put it on as cape and tutu and wore during entire run, no outside assistance. Again, athletes and spectators loved it as it also entertained them from the normal look of racers in spandex. I also took thousands of photos with every Tom, Dick, and hairy and it wasn’t at a sex party at finish line. Heard soooo many cancer stories folks shared and it was an honor to be a becone of happiness and hope for them.
Now... again... the rainbow flag represents freedom, peace, and Love for ALL people straight and gay or whatever. It is not a political statement cuz being gay is not political. The gay community has used this symbol to welcome ALL folks and show people they are safe under it. I have been gay since born and have fought in this community since the eighties and NEVER have we thought of this flag as a political symbol. The heterosexuals have made it a political symbol.
Why add this to rule... should I shave my Mohawk now? What about my kit and rainbow tutu? What about my rainbow tattoo on my arm that might offend folks if I raise my arms at finish? Or my pink triangle tattoo on my arm that represents my fellow gays being executed in holocaust, yes we got pink triangle symbol by Hitler... What if I fart a rainbow at finish cuz I’ve been known to leave a rainbow trail everywhere I go?... I also shit skittles!
I really want to say thank you to Dan and the folks on here in support... I never expected to see this cuz it can be kinda harsh on here sometimes. I’ve always been proud to be in this sport because it’s so inclusive to everyone. You all ROCK and thanks for still making me feel like it does. It’s one of the only arenas I can be in where my being gay is not an issue cuz we are all just athletes and family in triathlon. For those that don’t understand, it’s okay, just keep turning your head when the Ironsissy runs by with his rainbows. I promise I won’t touch you and give you gay cooties... your it!
Last edited by: RUNNER86: Jan 21, 19 11:51
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
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And yes I race in age group ITU races, Ironman races, and been to 3 ITU Duathlon Worlds. The race director and everyone at ITU Worlds in Zofingen where completely supportive of my look and interviewed me, and made we welcome all week. They had no problem with it, nor did my Team USA teammates, that I’m aware of, so why does a ITU all of a sudden.... bet if I go back to Zofingen it would still be non issue.
Last edited by: RUNNER86: Jan 21, 19 11:32
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]
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ecce-homo wrote:
It has not banned rainbow flags in particular. “Athletes will avoid displaying any kind of demonstration of political, religious, sexual orientation or racial propaganda.”

This means rainbow flags, but also homophobic flags, nazi flags, Ku Klux Klan flags, etc. Personally I think it makes sense.

Of course it makes sense. But the opportunity for an SJW click-bait title was just too much to turn down, apparently.

I don't care what you do with your genitalia; I suspect the vast majority of ITU race spectators agree with me. In fact, I watch sports specifically as a diversion from politics. You know what's never crossed my mind when someone crossed the finish line: "I wonder if that guy is gay?"

Because, as I said, I simply don't care and it has nothing to do with the activity at hand. Triathlon racing is a competition to see who can swim, bike, and run the fastest. There is no political activism portion of the race last time I checked. There are a billion and one ways to tell the world your sexual orientation/political affiliation/dietary choices/etc - how about during a race you just, ya know... race.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [rossi46] [ In reply to ]
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When will you get it.... being gay IS NOT POLITICAL.... you might think so but it’s a human not a policy... wake up... is being straight political?? Nor is the rainbow flag... it represents freedom, peace love and equality for all... which includes YOU. Think of it like the Olympic flag that represents ALL
Last edited by: RUNNER86: Jan 21, 19 12:10
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Replying to you because there's no "general" reply.

I keep using the word "status quo" and I believe the people who don't understand our point of view aren't internalizing how dramatically the status quo can change. Certain people are now talking about gay athletes being "obsessed with making a big deal about it". I can't imagine those same people using similar language in defense of segregated pools, bathrooms, restaurants, and water fountains, but half a century ago many people used very similar language abut that very thing. Was Rosa Parks "obsessed with sitting in the front of the bus, and not in a good way"? I doubt anyone would dare to say so on this forum today. Were the people who staged sit-ins at segregated restaurants "obsessed with where they ate, and not in a good way"? I again doubt anyone would say so now. Getting there (here) meant years and years of struggle and fight against those who thought the status quo at the time was ok.

That's what I (and I believe others including you) are saying is so important about this. Gay people should have fully equal rights. Not being a protected category should not be used as an excuse for why they're repressed or silenced (and that's exactly what this rule is, make no mistake), it should be a motivation for all the rest of us to help our LGBTQ friends, families, and strangers to get their rights enshrined equally into law. That means fighting, not accepting it as status quo or part of another culture.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
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RUNNER86 wrote:
it represents freedom, peace love and equality for all...

I'm sorry, what?

And if you're going to deny that a flag has a political message then there's not much to discuss.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
Yeeper wrote:


So this whole thing is a bit of a double standard if its acceptable to suppress religious and political demonstrations but its oppressive if the LGBTQ can't. Why are their exceptions to the protected? <-- this is where I think most people scratch their heads.


one of these things is VERY different from the other two... think about it.


You're right, religion is the only federally protected class in that lineup. LGBTQ can be covered under Civil Rights Acts and Political affiliation discrimination is defensible legally as well. But religion is federally protected for us in the US.

If one is more protected than the others then I don't know that and I genuinely don't know how to tell that. Which is why I said that may be a different discussion. Im playing devil's advocate. Why should sexual orientation be given a free pass over religious or political statements? Thats what needs answering for people who don't see an issue with this rule change.

Being LGBTQ is immutable, being religious is not.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [rossi46] [ In reply to ]
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What don’t you understand... the rainbow flag IS NOT POLITICAL.... you want it to be and you want gay rights to be political... they are humans and born that way... so it’s a Humanity issue. Is the Olympic flag political?
And does a kid think a rainbow flag is political or means someone’s gay? Or the person who is straight with rainbow flag cuz they just like rainbows?
And if you don’t get it then you are right... get out of it and don’t discuss
Last edited by: RUNNER86: Jan 21, 19 12:32
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Well here's something interesting.
This is from the ITU website and is the official ITU competition rules
https://www.triathlon.org/uploads/docs/itusport_competition-rules_2019_%281%29.pdf (dated 25/11/18 in the text but 15/1/19 on link)
"Avoid displaying any kind of demonstration of political, religious or racial propaganda;"


and


https://www.triathlon.org/uploads/docs/itusport_competition-rules_2019.pdf (dated 25/11/18 in the text)
"Avoid displaying any kind of demonstration of political, religious, sexual orientation or racial propaganda;"

So there has potentially been a change since the outsports article, or that was uploaded in error. Not sure but the ITU rules as they show (including the November 18 changes) do not refer to sexual orientation.




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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [rossi46] [ In reply to ]
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rossi46 wrote:
ecce-homo wrote:
It has not banned rainbow flags in particular. “Athletes will avoid displaying any kind of demonstration of political, religious, sexual orientation or racial propaganda.”

This means rainbow flags, but also homophobic flags, nazi flags, Ku Klux Klan flags, etc. Personally I think it makes sense.


Of course it makes sense. But the opportunity for an SJW click-bait title was just too much to turn down, apparently.

I don't care what you do with your genitalia; I suspect the vast majority of ITU race spectators agree with me. In fact, I watch sports specifically as a diversion from politics. You know what's never crossed my mind when someone crossed the finish line: "I wonder if that guy is gay?"

Because, as I said, I simply don't care and it has nothing to do with the activity at hand. Triathlon racing is a competition to see who can swim, bike, and run the fastest. There is no political activism portion of the race last time I checked. There are a billion and one ways to tell the world your sexual orientation/political affiliation/dietary choices/etc - how about during a race you just, ya know... race.

The fact that you don't see, for example, female participation in the race and their outfits as political just means that it's about what you're comfortable with, not with it being "political". You are fine with the status quo, which includes (for you) not being forced to understand that a certain athlete is gay. In history much the same thing was said about black people, Jews, women, and a variety of other disenfranchised groups. Or did I miss the part where everyone was fine with Jackie Robinson playing baseball? Warren Moon being a quarterback? Kathy Switzer running Boston? Those were all "uppity <somethings> shoving it in my face" to people at the time.

I've spoken with people who are annoyed at "all the interracial couples in advertising - why do advertisers have to push this agenda?". In my peer group, it's downright common, not least with me and my wife. Is it a political statement if I hug her after a race? Why or why not?

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [rossi46] [ In reply to ]
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I also know a BIG race company that displays the rainbow flag along with all country flags from around the world at their races... is that a political statement or to let EVERYONE know they are included?
THANK YOU CHALLENGE FAMILY EVENTS AND RACE DIRECTORS
For including EVERYONE and especially for the extra attention and comfort you have given me personally at many of your races around the World!
Last edited by: RUNNER86: Jan 21, 19 13:54
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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A lot of us are fine just doing a triathlon without being required to attend a political rally or an equal rights protest at the finish line. Can someone explain to me why I have to be made aware of someone’s sexual preference as they cross the finish line. It’s important to them but I could care less. I read the swimmer story on that website and he finally came out and guess what he learned....nobody really cared cause they already knew.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Gonefishin5555] [ In reply to ]
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But your MAGA bumper sticker makes it kinda hard
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Duncan74] [ In reply to ]
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Duncan74 wrote:
Well here's something interesting.
This is from the ITU website and is the official ITU competition rules
https://www.triathlon.org/uploads/docs/itusport_competition-rules_2019_%281%29.pdf (dated 25/11/18 in the text but 15/1/19 on link)
"Avoid displaying any kind of demonstration of political, religious or racial propaganda;"


and


https://www.triathlon.org/uploads/docs/itusport_competition-rules_2019.pdf (dated 25/11/18 in the text)
"Avoid displaying any kind of demonstration of political, religious, sexual orientation or racial propaganda;"

So there has potentially been a change since the outsports article, or that was uploaded in error. Not sure but the ITU rules as they show (including the November 18 changes) do not refer to sexual orientation.


Wow - it does look like they have removed it from their rules already. I navigated there from the home page (doesn't mean I don't trust you!) and yeah... it's gone.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Gonefishin5555] [ In reply to ]
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Gonefishin5555 wrote:
A lot of us are fine just doing a triathlon without being required to attend a political rally or an equal rights protest at the finish line. Can someone explain to me why I have to be made aware of someone’s sexual preference as they cross the finish line. It’s important to them but I could care less. I read the swimmer story on that website and he finally came out and guess what he learned....nobody really cared cause they already knew.

It's not about you. Read that again: it's not about you. It's so that other LGBTQ people realize they're not alone. You don't need to worry about it.

Also, your standards for "a political rally or an equal rights protest" are very low if a single person carrying a single flag for a minute reaches your threshold. Maybe try being less of a triggered snowflake in need of a safe space.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting there are no minutes from the conference or technical comittee either. Not suggesting that there's anything dodgy, just that they are a bit slack on that stuff! I guess normally this falls into the category of them struggling for the delegates to even read the stuff, let alone 'random' athletes wanting to delve into the discussions that happened in a sub-committee of the governing body.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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If this is true, I can’t tell you how relieved I am as a human, an athlete, and a gay person.
Please people can we stop making gays political... I really am a human just like you! Just cuz I like to chase hot men in wet spandex doesn’t mean I want you, I can appreciate beauty in any shape or form, and just be flattered they find you attractive instead of butt ass Fugly. Gay men are not after straight men nor do we think you can be converted... do you... maybe that’s what bothers folks is it reminds them they question their own sexuality and can’t believe someone else can be open and proud of it because they are ashamed of their own thoughts.
Now can we go back to triathlon allowing EVERYONE out there to be welcome like we are now... no matter what age, sex, size, athletic level, country, or who you love being an issue.
Again... Thank you to those folks being supportive cuz you all ROCK!!!
Come say Hello if you see me out there competing cuz you sure as hell cant miss this Ironsissy
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Gonefishin5555] [ In reply to ]
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Gonefishin5555 wrote:
A lot of us are fine just doing a triathlon without being required to attend a political rally or an equal rights protest at the finish line. Can someone explain to me why I have to be made aware of someone’s sexual preference as they cross the finish line. It’s important to them but I could care less. I read the swimmer story on that website and he finally came out and guess what he learned....nobody really cared cause they already knew.

Could you really care less or do you actually have a bit of a problem with it?

ITU is a global institution. If we look at the state of rights for people at more interesting points on the sexual spectrum then it varies an awful lot. Some countries have relatively recently made legislation towards equality but it's often not perfect and people still face discrimination on a personal level. Then there are other countries (including some which host ITU races) where it would terrifying to be LGBT.

I'm guessing these issues don't affect you or anyone you care about. But there is a lot of work to do but, I hope, the direction of change is obvious and positive. Just incredibly slow.

Personally I would clap anyone with a rainbow flag a bit loader then the rest of our fellow triathletes. I want to be part of a sport that is ahead of the curve and genuinely, demonstrably welcoming.

If you could careless then just move along. If it does bother you then have a think about why that might be.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [OddSlug] [ In reply to ]
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It’s been a long battle in my life especially as an athlete and I can tell you that my heart appreciates how you just articulated that and for first time in a long while I just had tears well up. Thank You for seeing US!
Last edited by: RUNNER86: Jan 21, 19 13:58
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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To be Honest, I think this rule is small peas in this realm, and thew more problematic move in terms of the LGBTQ2 community was the awarding of the Grand Final to Abu Dhabi...

I'm not sure that the rule wording gets walked back, but I can see a clarification around the application to help mitigate some of these concerns, and agree that we'll likely see an outpouring of support around inclusiveness in our sport, which can only be a good thing.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
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RUNNER86 wrote:
If this is true, I can’t tell you how relieved I am as a human, an athlete, and a gay person.
Please people can we stop making gays political... I really am a human just like you! Just cuz I like to chase hot men in wet spandex doesn’t mean I want you, I can appreciate beauty in any shape or form, and just be flattered they find you attractive instead of butt ass Fugly. Gay men are not after straight men nor do we think you can be converted... do you... maybe that’s what bothers folks is it reminds them they question their own sexuality and can’t believe someone else can be open and proud of it because they are ashamed of their own thoughts.
Now can we go back to triathlon allowing EVERYONE out there to be welcome like we are now... no matter what age, sex, size, athletic level, country, or who you love being an issue.
Again... Thank you to those folks being supportive cuz you all ROCK!!!
Come say Hello if you see me out there competing cuz you sure as hell cant miss this Ironsissy


Wouldn't it be nice if one day we could stop putting labels on everyone and pointing out the differences of colour, gender, race and sexual preference and just have everyone be humans...
Last edited by: dunno: Jan 21, 19 14:17
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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Wouldn't it be nice if one day we could stop putting labels on everyone and pointing out the differences of colour, gender, race and sexual preference and just have everyone be humans... //

Yes, it will be nice once that day comes. But it is not here yet, so work to be done for sure. In an odd way, this ITU measure is certainly going to backfire on them, and hasten that day, so a silver lining to this not so well thought out change. This reminds me of some of WTC's famous policies that got hammered out in a closed room, with everyone not willing to tell the king he had on no clothes. Well not so with ST'ers, king came out naked, we laughed our asses off, and all began pointing to the silliness of those rule changes that were made insetiously. I give this one about the same life span as the pay a grand to cut in front of the entry line...
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:
RUNNER86 wrote:
If this is true, I can’t tell you how relieved I am as a human, an athlete, and a gay person.
Please people can we stop making gays political... I really am a human just like you! Just cuz I like to chase hot men in wet spandex doesn’t mean I want you, I can appreciate beauty in any shape or form, and just be flattered they find you attractive instead of butt ass Fugly. Gay men are not after straight men nor do we think you can be converted... do you... maybe that’s what bothers folks is it reminds them they question their own sexuality and can’t believe someone else can be open and proud of it because they are ashamed of their own thoughts.
Now can we go back to triathlon allowing EVERYONE out there to be welcome like we are now... no matter what age, sex, size, athletic level, country, or who you love being an issue.
Again... Thank you to those folks being supportive cuz you all ROCK!!!
Come say Hello if you see me out there competing cuz you sure as hell cant miss this Ironsissy


Wouldn't it be nice if one day we could stop putting labels on everyone and pointing out the differences of colour, gender, race and sexual preference and just have everyone be humans...

That would, Unfortunately, history (very recent history) shows that when we attempt that, the discrimination goes into overdrive.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Changes and a statement from ITU over on the main area.

Maurice
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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Sooo apparently it looks like ITU has now removed this sexual orientation language from their rules on their website...
Dan Empfield at Slowtwitch is one of the most influential figures in our sport of triathlon and I can’t thank him enough for getting involved! You Sir have my utmost respect and I honor you by competing with pride for ALL!!
Hope this is true and discrimination stays out of our sport!
Last edited by: RUNNER86: Jan 21, 19 15:16
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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mauricemaher wrote:
Changes and a statement from ITU over on the main area.


Maurice


https://www.slowtwitch.com/...From_Rules_7148.html

Karen ST Concierge
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
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Ha!! I predicted it would last as long as the grand cut in line rule, but it smashed it, new record for backtracking!!!

But this is a lesson to us all really. When you go into some decision making process, and the only ones you consult are like minded, or afraid to go against the grain, then you will of course get your result, one that could be so one sided, you won't even see it at the time...
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [psychosyd] [ In reply to ]
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psychosyd wrote:
Being Gay is not a choice. Religion is.

Same as skin/hair/eye colour. You can't ban or discriminate against those and you can't (shouldn't) ban and discriminate against sexual orientation. The world stage is the place to be open about it. The world stage is where this sort of statement belongs.

Agreed. I could see an argument against religion being a choice. Many devout would argue you either are or aren't a believer, and a lot has to do with how strict one is brought up. Political opinions are definitely a choice. Both are protected and shouldn't be discriminated against. I actually don't think anything should be discriminated against.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Hello RowToTri and All,

Thanks for starting this post .... this discussion turned out well ...

It appears Slowman affected the outcome despite his modest: "i don't make the news, michael, i just report it"

In any event Chapeau! to all.

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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I think Dan is being humble... there couldn’t be a bigger influence in all of triathlon....

coming from another longtime athlete and follower of this sport since we were kids.
Last edited by: RUNNER86: Jan 21, 19 16:18
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [scott8888] [ In reply to ]
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scott8888 wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
Toby wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
Yeeper wrote:


So this whole thing is a bit of a double standard if its acceptable to suppress religious and political demonstrations but its oppressive if the LGBTQ can't. Why are their exceptions to the protected? <-- this is where I think most people scratch their heads.


one of these things is VERY different from the other two... think about it.


You're right, religion is the only federally protected class in that lineup. LGBTQ can be covered under Civil Rights Acts and Political affiliation discrimination is defensible legally as well. But religion is federally protected for us in the US.

If one is more protected than the others then I don't know that and I genuinely don't know how to tell that. Which is why I said that may be a different discussion. Im playing devil's advocate. Why should sexual orientation be given a free pass over religious or political statements? Thats what needs answering for people who don't see an issue with this rule change.


That matters, but not in the direction that you think it does.


I've clearly stated my stance on this. I hate that this has to even be an issue. But in playing devils advocate, I've gotten two of these cryptic responses. Those in opposition to this new rule amendment are not making a strong argument.

With regards to LGBTQ being allowed to make statements, but not religion or politics, please tell me in which way it matters then?

EricM told me they are VERY different and I should think about it. Rather than telling me. I'm asking legitimate questions because its really easy to see how one class is getting a pass while others are not. If I could see that then I wouldn't be posing the question. This is why I can understand those who don't have an issue with the new amendment.


Let me try and address your point as I see where you are coming from.

Why the ITU needs the rule to say anything more than 'athletes need to avoid any kind of demonstration of propoganda'? Doesn't that cover everything? Why add words like political or racial? I don't know the answer but by specifying political, racial, religious and sexual orientation you are singling out those aspects and lumping them together as bad. Gender propoganda, food propaganda (think vegans vs keto-diet), climate change propaganda, etc. that stuff is all OK according to the ITU. So what is about race, politics, religion and sexual orientation that are uniquely bad? More to the point what about sexual orientation necessitates its inclusion as needing to be specifically banned?

What myself and others are angry about is not that LGBTQ issues are being put on level footing with to religious or political issues. The anger is direct at the need to designated LGBTQ issues as 'bad' in the first palce. A coherent argument needs to be presented for why each activity is banned and we don't feel that argument can be justified for sexual orientation.

The simple solution is to replace the word propoganda with prejudice. The law should read 'athletes need to avoid any kind of demonstration of religious, political, sexual identity or racial prejudice.' In fact this could be a big win for the ITU as it would position itself as a defender of equality.

Thanks for this. Its actually much more straightforward than anything else Ive read. Thinking along those lines, I could see a coherent argument made against political stands. But I don't think I can find any that justify religious ones. Unless as people say, religion and politics are choices, while sexual orientation and race are not?
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
This whole thing begs the question, "What is it about the LGBTQ community that should allow them more freedom in the rules than other discriminated classes?"


thank you for asking that question. we've been answering that question intermittently in this thread. what we need is for you to read what we're saying, so that you can answer that question.

Dan, congratulations on getting the change! I don't feel like beating a dead horse here. The point seems moot now, but more importantly I'm relieved a number of you don't have to have this added frustration. Thanks again.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
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I did not vote for the orange one.(or HRC) I have left many selections blank in the past.. I mostly like to keep personal beliefs and political stuff separate from sports. The other poster stated I probably dont have anyone close to me affected by the issue and he is correct about that and its probably why I have no passion or strong opinions on the issue. I actually am surprised by the fervor of support on the issue here i really had no idea it was that important to that many.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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It's not about you. Read that again: it's not about you. It's so that other LGBTQ people realize they're not alone. You don't need to worry about it.

I'll accept that answer as long as there is no gay sex party at the finish line they can whatever they want.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
Slowman wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
This whole thing begs the question, "What is it about the LGBTQ community that should allow them more freedom in the rules than other discriminated classes?"


thank you for asking that question. we've been answering that question intermittently in this thread. what we need is for you to read what we're saying, so that you can answer that question.


Dan, congratulations on getting the change! I don't feel like beating a dead horse here. The point seems moot now, but more importantly I'm relieved a number of you don't have to have this added frustration. Thanks again.

well, it's not really my frustration. i'm the old straight white guy. the trick is to understand, as empathetically as we can, the frustrations of people who aren't old, straight, white and male. somebody put it well earlier in the thread, when he said the thing is not to just accept the status quo. it's easy to accept the status quo when you're not the person at the wrong end of justice. funny that this is coming up today, on MLK day.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Gonefishin5555] [ In reply to ]
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That’s the point... it shouldn’t matter in sport nor society for that matter. Triathlon has always been a place where I’m just seen as another athlete and it should stay that way for every athlete out there. The point I was making was that there are bumper stickers, advertising, and other things at races that people find Offensive but an inclusive flag should not be one of them
I also am very surprised by the response and support on here but am very thankful, grateful, and even more proud to be an athlete in the Triathlon Family. Thank you again to all those on here and writing to whomever to help change this. I can only hope that society will see the gay community as equals sometime before I take my last breath.
Happy Rainbows Everyone!
Last edited by: RUNNER86: Jan 21, 19 18:06
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Gonefishin5555] [ In reply to ]
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Gonefishin5555 wrote:
It's not about you. Read that again: it's not about you. It's so that other LGBTQ people realize they're not alone. You don't need to worry about it.

I'll accept that answer as long as there is no gay sex party at the finish line they can whatever they want.

The stereotype I would like to see ended in my lifetime is that gays want to "gay sex party" 24/7.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
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RUNNER86 wrote:
I also know a BIG race company that displays the rainbow flag along with all country flags from around the world at their races... is that a political statement or to let EVERYONE know they are included?
THANK YOU CHALLENGE FAMILY EVENTS AND RACE DIRECTORS
For including EVERYONE and especially for the extra attention and comfort you have given me personally at many of your races around the World!

To add to your point, I instantly think of a vast number of restaurants in multitudes of cities that display the rainbow flags/stickers in their front windows. Their purpose of displaying the rainbow flag is to let all persons know they are safe and welcome inside. The rainbow flag has never been a political symbol. If anyone thinks otherwise, they need to educate themselves. If anyone understands anything about being oppressed, carrying a symbol like the rainbow flag is meant to unite and help others who struggle feel welcome and not alone.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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The most fascinating and confusing statement of all was ITU's remarks...

"Officials attached to the ITU, and to its daughter federations, wrote privately over the weekend expressing their dismay. It's unclear how or why whom this rule text was inserted."

I am relieved to know officials took issue with the rule change and spoke up. But how the hell do they not know that someone made the rule change and they have no clue who is responsible? smh and moving on ~ faith in humanity restored.
Last edited by: Trigirl357: Jan 21, 19 20:23
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Gonefishin5555] [ In reply to ]
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Gonefishin5555 wrote:
A lot of us are fine just doing a triathlon without being required to attend a political rally or an equal rights protest at the finish line. Can someone explain to me why I have to be made aware of someone’s sexual preference as they cross the finish line. It’s important to them but I could care less. I read the swimmer story on that website and he finally came out and guess what he learned....nobody really cared cause they already knew.
You realise that the text I've highlighted means you do in fact care somewhat?
Maybe that's what you wanted to say? however, I suspect you meant "I don't care" or "I couldn't care less".
Why has everyone switched from saying "I couldn't care less" to I could care less" and they think it means the same thing? Words have meanings, it's not difficult! Same thing with regardless and irregardless - nonsense!

Okay, that might seem off topic, but I'm not so sure. Western society (maybe it's worldwide but I'm not in a position to say) seems to have taken a bit of a U-turn in the last few years. Decades of progress towards more balanced, informed, fair and rational thought has given way to gut reactions and extreme positions that people then attempt to justify retrospectively, ignoring any information that doesn't agree with the position they already adopted. It's all about pride, willful ignorance, selfishness, laziness and a willingness to accept assertion and perception as fact without critical examination.
Maybe you'll think I'm crazy but I think blindness to the actual meaning of your words is a symptom.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Trigirl357] [ In reply to ]
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Trigirl357 wrote:
The most fascinating and confusing statement of all was ITU's remarks...

"Officials attached to the ITU, and to its daughter federations, wrote privately over the weekend expressing their dismay. It's unclear how or why whom this rule text was inserted."

I am relieved to know officials took issue with the rule change and spoke up. But how the hell do they not know that someone made the rule change and they have no clue who is responsible? smh and moving on ~ faith in humanity restored.

Russian hackers? Or the modern excuse for any ill-advised social media post: "Uh, I was hacked! Yeah, that's the ticket.".

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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ripple wrote:
Yep, sounds like enforcement of an existing rule to prevent political posturing at their events. Unless you're one of those that have to get your underwear wadded up about everything, there's not much to see here.

Exactly!
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
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RUNNER86 wrote:
Being gay is not political.... heterosexuals with crazy religious views want it to be

Look at what you just posted. Could it be left leaning people have made it political? Or maybe atheist made it political based on your comment? Of course you could be one of those people who need a safe space because everything offends you especially anyone or any organization that disagree with you?

The point being...... If there wasn't any sense of politics with this issue this entire thread wouldn't exist in the fist place.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
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you are asking people to stop making gay political, but you proceed to tell GONEFISHIN5555 to go back to his MAGA sticker, without even knowing him or which POLITICAL party he supports.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [hairypiernas] [ In reply to ]
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All y'all are embarrassing this forum and thread. You need to come into the Lavender Room.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Scottxs] [ In reply to ]
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Scottxs wrote:
RUNNER86 wrote:
Being gay is not political.... heterosexuals with crazy religious views want it to be


Look at what you just posted. Could it be left leaning people have made it political? Or maybe atheist made it political based on your comment? Of course you could be one of those people who need a safe space because everything offends you especially anyone or any organization that disagree with you?

The point being...... If there wasn't any sense of politics with this issue this entire thread wouldn't exist in the fist place.

The only reason sexual orientation is political is because some people have decided to use the political system to strip LGBTQ people of their rights. If people did not do that, it would not be political. Full stop.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [trail] [ In reply to ]
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not sure they have the critical thinking ability for the Lavender Room...

trail wrote:
All y'all are embarrassing this forum and thread. You need to come into the Lavender Room.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Scottxs] [ In reply to ]
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Oh yes you must be correct... left leaning gays decided their lives should be considered political. Just like being straight should be political. Politics is about policy and law. Being gay is what you are born and we are still human, not for you or religion to decide. Why do you care?
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [hairypiernas] [ In reply to ]
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As I clarified above, I’m referencing there are many offensive displays at races, it’s your choice to ignore or ignite. How is a rainbow flag offensive if it includes everyone?
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you ED.... some people just like to suppress others for lack of something in their lives. What other humans have been made political pawns lately? And ask yourself why human rights need to be political... we are all equal
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ In reply to ]
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This thread shows some people would rather defend oppression and discrimination than call it out.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Scottxs] [ In reply to ]
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much ado about nothing.....words in, words out....and nothing is really changed. Real change is hard.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Scottxs] [ In reply to ]
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40+ years of racing and never seen a sex party at finish line or anywhere in my gay life. Now that’s getting me really excited to know there will be some this year apparently and I guess it will be straight boys participating with you. Haven’t met many gays in this sport traveling around world racing but glad to know there are more than just me out and there. Add me to mailing list though for sex parties cuz I gotta see it with my own eyes.... might be a great highlight to races if race directors added this to their events. I would even volunteer to DJ.
Bless your heart for thinking us gays have sex parties!
Last edited by: RUNNER86: Jan 22, 19 11:43
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Scottxs] [ In reply to ]
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Scottxs wrote:
RUNNER86 wrote:
Being gay is not political.... heterosexuals with crazy religious views want it to be


Look at what you just posted. Could it be left leaning people have made it political? Or maybe atheist made it political based on your comment? Of course you could be one of those people who need a safe space because everything offends you especially anyone or any organization that disagree with you?

The point being...... If there wasn't any sense of politics with this issue this entire thread wouldn't exist in the fist place.

Why did Rosa Parks have to go and make riding the bus political?

Everyone note the goddamn sarcastic pink.

Also, it's interesting that the people offended by seeing a rainbow flag waving for a minute are the ones accusing others of needing a safe space.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
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Wasn't the ban on propoganda, not rainbow flags? All propoganda should be kept out of sport.

"information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view"

Is that the point of the rainbow flag? If not, why did everyone get their speedos in a bunch over this?
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [TIT] [ In reply to ]
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TIT wrote:
Wasn't the ban on propoganda, not rainbow flags? All propoganda should be kept out of sport.

"information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view"

Is that the point of the rainbow flag? If not, why did everyone get their speedos in a bunch over this?

You manage to go full circle in 4 sentences - well done!
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe i misread the clause but didn't it state "flags and stripes"? I believe this would also ban country flags and stripes. Cycling has a similar rule that only allows champion stripes on a jersey.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
TIT wrote:
Wasn't the ban on propoganda, not rainbow flags? All propoganda should be kept out of sport.

"information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view"

Is that the point of the rainbow flag? If not, why did everyone get their speedos in a bunch over this?

You manage to go full circle in 4 sentences - well done!

I just don't understand the thread title and outrage. Was the rainbow flag specifically banned? Or is everyone just assuming the rainbow flag is propoganda?
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [RUNNER86] [ In reply to ]
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RUNNER86 wrote:
Oh yes you must be correct... left leaning gays decided their lives should be considered political. Just like being straight should be political. Politics is about policy and law. Being gay is what you are born and we are still human, not for you or religion to decide. Why do you care?

I could care less who you sleep with....its none of my business. Yet, to blame one side as starting this political fight and make the other side righteous is just stupid. I'm simply saying you can't pick a side without anything being political in this day and age.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [chadm] [ In reply to ]
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chadm wrote:
Maybe i misread the clause but didn't it state "flags and stripes"? I believe this would also ban country flags and stripes. Cycling has a similar rule that only allows champion stripes on a jersey.

Not sure where you read this, it was not specified in the ITU Rule... The rule only states "Avoid displaying any kind of demonstration of political, religious or racial propaganda", and the only change was to add, and then un-add sexual orientation... IT's hard to think of many WTS/World championship.Olympic finishes (excluding where there was a tight sprint) where one or more athletes did not grab their country's flag running down the finishing chute... In fact, when you look at the ITU approved uniform catalogue, many of the approved national team kits contain stripes or flags...
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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Trauma wrote:
chadm wrote:
Maybe i misread the clause but didn't it state "flags and stripes"? I believe this would also ban country flags and stripes. Cycling has a similar rule that only allows champion stripes on a jersey.

Not sure where you read this, it was not specified in the ITU Rule... The rule only states "Avoid displaying any kind of demonstration of political, religious or racial propaganda", and the only change was to add, and then un-add sexual orientation... IT's hard to think of many WTS/World championship.Olympic finishes (excluding where there was a tight sprint) where one or more athletes did not grab their country's flag running down the finishing chute... In fact, when you look at the ITU approved uniform catalogue, many of the approved national team kits contain stripes or flags...

So where did the rainbow flag come in to the discussion?
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [ In reply to ]
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So now that it's been removed can we remove the political and religious one too?

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [TIT] [ In reply to ]
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TIT wrote:

So where did the rainbow flag come in to the discussion?

It didn't. But that was no reason not to have a good display of outrage.

Positive was that 99% of people expressed strong opposition to something that wasn't proposed, and the ITU quickly confirmed they didn't intend something to happen that no-one wanted or intended. Did however distract everyone from Technical Rule 11.5.3(ii) banning tubular tires/tyres from 2020 season.
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Re: ITU bans rainbow flags - grounds for DQ. [Duncan74] [ In reply to ]
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Duncan74 wrote:
TIT wrote:


So where did the rainbow flag come in to the discussion?


It didn't. But that was no reason not to have a good display of outrage.

Positive was that 99% of people expressed strong opposition to something that wasn't proposed, and the ITU quickly confirmed they didn't intend something to happen that no-one wanted or intended. Did however distract everyone from Technical Rule 11.5.3(ii) banning tubular tires/tyres from 2020 season.

What? There is no rule 11.5.3 in the ITU rules, 11.5 refers to "Technical Officials may use any kind of electric, electronic, magnetic, or other technological support to acquire data or evidence on rule infractions as supporting evidence" (the entire section 11 of the rules pertains to technical officials, and their associated processes). 5.2 e) states that tubular tires must be well-glued, the levers of the quick releases must be closed tightly onto the hubs and wheels must be properly fixed onto the frames". Or are you referring to something in the UCI rules?
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