I guess the only issue here is the use of the word "Compete" since even with RD and USAT exception, you likely wouldn't be eligible for awards. Other than the awards issue, If the RD OKs it, have at it and enjoy the race.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

I'm sure I'd be quizzical. In a very polite way though but I guess it's human nature to question what stands out. Maybe if you're sending a question to the RD anyway why not ask to get a mention in the briefing? I think that would change puzzled looks into support.

AFAIK, most swim run events allow snorkels for anyone. So maybe that's worth thinking about?

never thought of that. Great idea

In the pool I am slower with a snorkel.

I assume this is due to added hydrodynamic resistance.

If you're competing with me in a race please use a snorkel.

I wouldn't care at all, even if you were in my Age Group. I had a cervical disc replacement in October so understand why someone might need to use one to compete. I occasionally use a snorkel in the pool for drills. I personally don't think it would work very well--water getting in it, people bumping it, but if it allows you to compete more power to you. I will be working on a new type of siting (not sure how yet) as a result of my surgery.

The snorkel isn't going to make it easier to breath, it'll make it harder. You typically have to "pull" a lot harder to get the breath.

Also, using a snorkel open water isn't like using it in the pool with lanes lines that diminish the chop. I've had athletes swallow a lot of water who tried to use snorkels in open water.

Hope this helps.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I don't think your Doc knows much about swimming and about how using a snorkel affects your ability to breath. As Tim ("SnappingT") points out, the snorkel actually makes it HARDER to breath, not easier. I think you should just swim normally as only having 70% lung capacity is not really going to affect your triathlon swimming all that much; now if you were shooting to qualify for the Oly Trials in swimming, sure, your lungs would hinder that but, just for tri swimming, i can't see it being a big problem.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

sorry for your injuries..

as others said, not sure that the snorkel is going to help. At high effort this just adds an extra obstacle to airflow, probably better off breathing every other stroke 1:2 or even Gary Hall/monty's 2:3 breathing.

I went through flu, pneumonia, pleurisy, a decade or so ago. Lost about 20-30% of lung function permanently, which has been a bore. Swim sprint times are unchanged, longer distances really fall off.
For tris I used to swim the first few minutes with 1:4 breathing, but can't do that anymore.

my son had pneumonia and a collapsed lung in Dec 2017, was back swim racing in a month or so, and set PRs at conference meet in Feb. What it is to be a young dog..

Do it.
That way, when you beat me in the swim because Im slow as tits in zero gravity (just kinda float there), then I can legit say "ya well he had a snorkel"

I now bet you are imagining what tits look like in space. You are welcome.

I find it terrifying whenever I have to share a lane while swimming with a snorkel and pretty soon I'm breathing in water other swimmers have kicked up into the snorkel. I think open water with one of those freestyle snorkels would be a nightmare, especially with lots of other swimmers around.

I also swim slower with a snorkel than without one. Not sure why; I always assumed it was because the snorkel is tiny in diameter and restricts breathing somewhat. Maybe it is hydrodynamics too

I'd be happy you're there.

I'm going with others and saying your doc is wrong (no I ain't a doc but been swimming and diving for ages). If you had a neck issue, yeah snorkel. If not it's not going to help, it's only going to make it worse.

And seconding the issue of being in OW with one unless you are not near anyone and it's glass flat. I recently joined a swim program that uses snorkels often, and swam for the first time last weekend with one. There were a few lengths when I had to figure out whether I stop or could I get to the wall as it was full of water. Either through chop, or more often my habit of turning my head even though I didn't need to.. introducing water.

I guess just saying even without lung problems unless you practice quite a bit snorkel in a race is going to introduce ay more issues than it solves

As for how i'd feel if you showed up, wouldn't really care.

Yes as others have stated, you doc has no idea what he is talking about, he probably thinks a snorkel is scuba. You get "less" air with a snorkel, not more. The only thing the snorkel does is allow you to keep your head straight and down. And in a race not sure that is even a good thing, and no doubt unless you start dead last, and stay there, you are going to get water in that thing and breath it into your lungs. That would be a horrible outcome for someone in your position.

Whats wrong with just swimming the pace you can? Swimming is swimming, train in the pool for the pace you can, and then replicate it at the race. Just stay right or left of the group(the opposite side you breath on), take it easy until it sorts out, and then find a pair of feet to swim easily on in a line, or back of a small group..It is already hard for you, no need to make it even harder...

Sorry to read of your plight.

There was a snorkel using participant the year I did IMWI. I didn't care.

ETA - If you want to try a snorkel, check out the power breather. It has 2 tubes vs one and uses one way valves to keep air fresher (no CO2 build up). The one way valves also help with splashing water. Drips of water run down the tubes and out the bottom one way valve, not into your mouth.

That said, it's still freaky to use one in open water. A group I swim with holds regular time at the local river so I tried it out. It would take a bunch of practice for me to not feel panicked with that and lots of other swimmers around me. You see, unlike goggles with an elastic strap, this has a plastic adjustable head strap that is not just quickly pulled off your face in a moment of panic (think flat turning disk like a boa on bike shoes). I'd love to retrofit the head strap to be a standard stretchy band. Last thing, I have a small mouth and the power breather came with a big enough bite piece that it was uncomfortable to hold my jaw like that. So I bought a replacement mouth piece for a generic snorkel and like it much better. (Of course, the dentist also uses kids plates to make molds of my teeth, so I may be an outlier here.)

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To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

As someone also with a respiratory problem, I'll go against what most folks say here. I can breathe a LOT more air in and out in with my snorkel. Why ? Well for starters the mouthpiece and pipe 'hole' is no smaller than the limiting diameter of a windpipe. (As that must be one of the limiters in getting air in and out, along of course with stuff like how powerful you muscles are that work your diaphragm etc to inhalf and exhale).
But more than the diameter of the pipe, what a snorkel allows is CONSTANT breathing both in and out. Whereas the in breath is limited to only being avaliable what, something like 15% (as an educated guess) of the time if on breathe-every-3.
So if your limiting factor is being able suck air in, being able to do it constantly (or ok 50% of the time as you're breathing out the other 50%) vs say 15% helps.

But i do agree there is more drag. However for me the ability to generate more power by being able to get more air in and out, easily outweighs that drag. (+ any technique flaws i have do not appear so much, as most of my technique faults are at the breathing point.)

The limiting factor for someone with no respiratory problem may be different.

In 50 years of competitive swimming at the age group, high school, college and Masters level, I have never known anyone whose breathing was not restricted by a snorkel. As a matter of fact, coaches use snorkels specifically as a drill to restrict breathing. I would suggest that if a snorkel allows you to breath more freely, then you are likely not breathing correctly.

since a snorkel doesn't restrict your breathing due to the size of the tube being the same as your windpipe, trying running a mile with a snorkel and let me know if it restricts your breathing.....it definitely does,

I’m never holding my breath swimming, unless it’s a turn. And iti isn’t the mouth diameter, it’s the stale air that gets trapped in the tube, you are rebreathing bad air each breath. Maybe work on exhaling more fully, and just breathe more often.

 
Hello

like Monty and Tim, I'm surprised by your doc request.

The main reason is that from most studies, swimming is requesting much less air than biking and running, at same muscle effort level. Because arm muscles are lighter than legs muscles ? Because lack of access to air push anaerobic ?
Apparantly, from research studies, elite swimmers only use 3 liters oxygen per minute at 4mmol/L lactate (1 hour max effort), vs 4,5 liters for bikers.

At 52 years old, with my average lungs and heart and blood, I can't support 4.5 liters for an hour (neither 5mn), but 3 liters is OK.
And with my small swimming muscles (if I do not overuse my legs), 1.5 liter is probably enough.

Consequence is that swimming is putting less pressure on lungs and cardio system than biking and running.
Personally I noticed that on both breathing and BPM.

On the other side :
yes, in tri, I probably swim at a lactate level higher than bike and run, as it is a shorter part.
maybe snorkel giving constant access to air is better for you. Necessary ?

Either you want to follow your doc, and tri "pre DSQ", or you can test normal breathing (maybe limiting leg use) and see another doc with swimming experience ?

Hope you will find solution to overcome the issue. Good luck !

Like most my races. My first thought when I see something out of place I go “that guy is either very fast or a doofus.” (Like the guys I see doing the events in speedos, fat bikes, costumes, etc)

Then I don’t think about them. If I see them pass me I say, man looks like that guy is fast so he can do whatever he wants.

I just couldn’t care less at a race about somebody with a snorkel or any number of other things. I’m so wrapped up and dealing with my own race crap I can’t imagine worrying about somebody else.

Snorkels add more dead space (the volume of a breath that doesn't participate in gas exchange). This causes you to breathe in a higher percentage of carbon dioxide than ambient air would have. THAT is what primarily increases the work of breathing when using a snorkel. Unless your doc is a pulmonologist, I doubt they'd consider this.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12740732

I've swam 100 of thousands of yards in the pool with a snorkel. I couldn't sprint faster with one but for the Ironman pace swim I bet I may be faster with one. Never tried it in open water or a race so can't comment there.

I just saw a youtube ad for the power breather and it comes with different end caps for different situations. There have been many races where people have been using a snorkel, never heard anyone say anything bad about them. There was one lady who used one and was just recovering from a serious illness, we congratulated her for getting out and having the courage to get back into training and racing.

I find this hard to believe. My HR is just as high at end of the swim in an Oly Dist race as it is at end of the run, e.g. about 90-95% of max HR. And, if swimmers were truly using only 2/3 the O2 of BR guys, then how come they burn so many frigging calories??? AFAIK, calorie burn is directly proportional to O2 usage. Phelps allegedly ate 12,000 cal/day, which is no doubt an exaggeration, but OTOH I bet MP and other top swimmers do eat 7000-8000/day when in heavy training. I am suspicious of the validity of the flume-based measurements for swimming b/c it would be almost impossible to swim all out with all those wires and tubes attached to you. I suspect the guys/girls in the studies can go much harder with "no strings attached", so to speak. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Hello


I was surprised when I found the study and its results, but it explained what I experiment personally.

Someone spent 30 days in the ICU which left them with 70% lung function and your first thought is about beating them at a race. Nice

I suspect it's because you're horizontal so it's easier for your heart to pump blood throughout the body. Cycling/ running your heart has to work harder to get blood out of your feet. No scientific basis for this, just a thought i had.

  
Hello

can't find the study again, but this one give similar results, see figure 1 :

https://www.researchgate.net/...AFTER_FRANCAUX_MODEL

Bikers : measured on ergometer cycle (not in this study, figures from another study referenced)
Swimmers : similar results from ergometer cycle test and real swimming tests (both done, from this study and another). For real swimming, only blood test done, no oxygen masks.

Swimmers tested are Olympic team level, apparently.

4mmol/L (approx Lactate threshold) is reached :
- between 3 and 3.5 O2 L/mn for swimmers
- 4.5 L/mn for bikers.

Very significant difference !

Several possible explanations :

1) mass muscle involved in swimming is lower (if not overusing legs) leading to less pressure on cardio-vascular system

2) swimmers tested have a more "sprinter profile".
I found another study comparing runners : marathoners vs sprinters, and marathoners typical lactate curves are similar to bikers (no surprise here) while sprinter typical lactate curve move up much earlier (no surprise again, less aerobic capacity).
However, 800m or 1500m swimming is not "sprinting", more like pursuit or a short TT. So this cannot explain the difference.

3) up to you...

You could exhale through your nose while using a snorkel for swimming. Or, you can use the powerbreather snorkel, which vents your exhale out the mouthpiece instead of pushing it back up the snorkel.

Correct, the Powerbreather snorkels bring O2 in the top vents and you exhale CO2 out the bottom, so it's always fresh air. You can also get different resistance like medium and power to help simulate hypoxic training which of course is subject to debate with many coaches. I've found swimming with the Powerbreather to translate to my other sports.
https://www.powerbreatherusa.com/pages/compare-chart

or......due to less o2 coming in via breathing, they go anaerobic sooner and as a result lactate builds up more quickly.

i am having this problem currently......still breathing in same amount of air as before(cycling) but not able to push as much o2 through the system as before due to degradation of heart function(hopefully still recovering). i go into o2 debt sooner now than i did before heart surgery

try cycling to peak performance while breathing at a swimming rate and see when you hit 4mmol

You missed my point. Sorry I was subtle.


People who criticize others who use snorkels in competition should consider how restrictive they are.


I believe using a snorkel is a disadvantage, hence it's silly to criticize others for using a snorkel.

We have this discussion periodically when someone is aghast that USAT allows snorkels.

 
Yes, I though about this also.

But from the graph they can go up to 4L/mn O2.

So, this might happen (not sure however) for high volume of air intake, at higher power output.

But at lower level (below 4mmol/L for exemple) that can't be the case. If they can push a maximum of 4L/mn O2 in their blood I don't see any breathing limitation reason why their lactate level goes up at 2L/mn O2 comparatively to bikers.

The swimmers lactate goes up quickly at lower volume of O2 intake, for me this push to an explanation around "smaller muscles" involved around the arms, key to propulsion.

So globally much less pressure on cardio system at same effort level, even for pros.

However, this doesn't prevent to push anaerobic at the end of a swim part, and move up the heart to panic level.
Despite my short swim experience, and clearly underdeveloped swimming muscles (lactate threshold 30 bpm lower in swimming than biking or running) I can easily push my heart rate very high by going anaerobic and pushing a lot on the legs... kind of heart panic reaction :-)

You could exhale through your nose, but you're not going to at any significant level of exertion.

Certainly I would agree that the arms are the key to propulsion but by the same token, most swimmers are kicking their legs as much as their lungs and O2 will allow them to. I was thinking about this when swimming today, e.g., sure I go faster when I kick harder but my O2 can only last so long at a high level of effort in kicking. However, guys like Phelps and Lochte have huge lungs and engines and hence they can provide O2 for both their arms and legs to work hard. I've heard from former "almost-great" swimmers that the ability to sustain that extra speed from the kick is often the diff between a Phelps/Lochte and a guy who is 3-4 sec slower over 200 m. In sum, the need for O2 is so great in swimming that I just can not really believe these studies that say top swimmers have lower VO2 max than runners, etc. Somehow I think the scientists are either missing something and the data is off, and/or the swimmers are not able to perform normally in the swim flume during these tests, due to all the hoses going in and out of the water, which would have to make it very hard to swim normally. Sometimes science takes a long time to catch up to a full picture of reality. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

 
I understand your points.

I saw an underwater video recently posted here about 4x100m olympics, and the kick rates were impressive. No doubt a lot of power produced there. Probably the same at 200m. I have no data or experience to discuss aerobic/anaerobic constraints at these speeds/distances.

The study mentionned might not be valid / useful to analyse what happen exactly at sprint/anaerobic speed, as on the higher part of the curve, probably blood lactate is moving too fast to give a good idea of what happen there.

I was mostly discussing the curve "in the middle" around 1hour effort (4mmol/L), and "bottom side" for easier aerobic effort. This is why I was mentioning "lower volume of O2 intake".

First reason is that I understand it is difficult to analyse what happen exactly at sprint/anaerobic speed from blood lactate curve, i.e from this study.

The other reason is that my initial expectation was to understand how to pace my swim work, for IM/HIM training (not 100m) realizing heart / breath sensations from bike / run references was not going to help me much.

On this part of the curve, the study look quite realistic. Probably for long distances (1500m to 10.000m) kicking is less used even by pro swimmers ?
Maybe during the incremental swim test the swimmers underused kicking at lower speeds ?
Wich I do mostly, as most triathletes apparently ( If I remember well Gerry Rodriguez said in a T26 video I saw months ago that for "not really good swimmers", kicking was to be used "a minima").
Again, apparently, for the swim exercises, they were just taking a bit of blood (probably earlobe), no equipment restricting their moves.

For aerobic pacing (more than 5mn efforts, and more specifically 20mn to 2h efforts), these curves are useful to me, as they give me some good hint to adapt my "Lactate vs O2 consumption/HR" curves for swim workout (vs bike/run references).

Ignoring all of the other feedback, if a doctor requires you to use one, and you're comfortable using it, it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks! For ITU and Ironman / Ironman 70.3, you can't use one [Ironman used to have a medical exception to allow use, but that went away]. If it's a USAT sanctioned race, you can use one and still be eligible for awards - no restrictions [unless that specific race has an exemption, and I haven't run into one that does, other than US-based Ironman].

If they were only taking blood from the swimmers' earlobes, how did they measure O2 uptake??? The set-ups I've seen for measuring O2 uptake involve a flume (e.g., something kinda, sorta like the Endless Pool where you swim against a current) with the swimmer wearing a mask to record O2 in and out.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

You are right on this one.

Don't know, it is not well described.

Correlation with HR ?
Or gas analysis via a mask ? Don't know

I read the article you posted above and looked at the data tables and graphs. If you read the title of Figure 1, it says "Mean evolution of blood lactate concentrations in top level swimmers (n = 5) and cyclists (n = 5) during an incremental bicycle ergometer test." Figure 1 shows the swimmers peaking at about 10 mmole/L of lactate and about 4 L O2/min, vs the cyclists peaking at about 7.2 mmole/L lactate and about 5.2 L O2/min. However, this result is hardly surprising since the cyclists were tested in their specialty of cycling. It is very well established that athletes will achieve the highest O2 uptake when tested in their specialty. If you test a cyclist on a treadmill, his numbers will not be as impressive as when tested on the bike; if you test a runner on the bike, his numbers will not be as high as they would be on the treadmill. For swimmers, testing in the flume is the only real way to get a good idea of their max O2 uptake. This article was not really concerned about that but rather was mainly trying to validate the "Francaux Model" of lactate accumulation vs VO2.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Yes

But they also mention swimming test giving the same results, however not describing clearly the protocol.
I agree there is some ambiguity.

However, these "separated curves" gave me the idea (Arvild Tveiten interview pointing also in same direction) to create for myself this curve "Lactate vs BPM/Oxygen consumption" for swimming, which is very different form the one I use for biking / running.

It proved very useful.

So did you buy your own little lactate testing kit and prick your own ear lobe??? Or have a friend prick it??? I've used a HR monitor a good bit in the past but I've never gone to the extent of testing my own lactate levels. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."