I'm doing a 6 to 4 hour eating window, have had no issues with energy in workouts up to 2 hours. Haven't tried further than that, but sometimes I won't eat for 3 to 5 after last. workout, and still feel good. But I usually dont workout until 9 to 10 am, so not that long until the eating window opens. But honestly, I never feel the need to eat, just do it because I'm supposed to. I'm at 7+ months into this, virtually everyday, up to 24 hours one time..

Actually thinking about a 3 day with 1 workout each day, just to see what happens. Really supercharge that autophagy and get some of those deep, bad, cells...

I just realized I didnt answer your question about the coffee, from what people in the know say, it is fine to have it at anytime. Now I do black, so no calorie issues, but people that do cream have to cut it way back. If I had to do your workout schedule that early, I would have one cup before, and a couple after until lunch time...

I've been doing intermitent fasting for two years now. Always from 6 pm Sunday to 4 PM Monday. All I have is two cups of coffee with cream and sugar, and a bottle of F2C Pharma Greens. My only workout of the day is an hour swim after I eat . So far so good. Feel free to ask questions

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http://www.fitspeek.com the Fraser Valley's fitness, wellness, and endurance sports podcast

Why not try something like this:

AM: Workout between 5am-7pm, and get a recovery breakfast in. (something substantial) so you repair your body (glycogen and protein)

- Skip Lunch -

PM: Eat a late dinner (around 8pm-9pm)

Sleep repeat.

That is something I do regularly if I dont have a second workout planned for the day. Seems to work fine for me.
If i do have a second workout, then I may have a light lunch if i really need the energy. Usually i dont.

Just a thought

What you just described is not IF, not even close. The goal is to eat in as small a window as possible, your scenario there has basically sleep time + a couple, so not really long enough to get results..

Like I said, I dont bonk doing 2 hard hours, and I have plenty of energy to get on with my day after the morning workout. I dont need to replenish, guessing I just barley emptied out my liver glycogen. Then the goal is to burn as high a % of fat as possible, getting to some long held stores, and making my body more efficient in that regard.

I suppose if I was training for an ironman and doing 20+ hours a week, I would need more frequent fueling. But just doing 2 hours or less a day has been great, and I have a feeling I could go 3 or more even..

Take a look at that thread of the 73 year old guy that runs 2;50+ marathons, a lot of them. He never eats breakfast, and never even fuels during his races and runs. 5 years ago I would have thought that crazy, now it actually makes sense to me, and I think I may be just like him.

But as I always say, we are not all created equal, but in the end we are more alike than not, so why not try at least things that seem to work very well for others...

Appreciate your response Monty.
No doubt, I do the exact same protocol as you on weekends - that being - I may not start training till later in the day (say 9am-10pm, like yourself). My first meal after that is usually a late lunch, (2-3 hours after finishing a 2-3 hour session). That meal serves well for recovery for my next days workout, and does not impact me cognitively or physically.

That fits this methodology. Where my feeding window would be 5-6 hours (as dinner is usually the same time).

Problem I usually have is mid-week workouts (where I train at 5am - 7.30am). I dont want to starve my body of any recovery nutrition (waiting till 12pm-1pm). I've done this in the past, and found that my body was constantly fatigued.

Also, want to note, if the AM workout is an easy run or ride, then again, I will wait for lunch for my first meal.

Its all about experimentation, I find it better to IF on easy/aerobic/recovery days. But on hard or long days, taking something straight after is necessary for me for recovery purposes.

Sounds as if you have a good handle on it. I would only add, that sometimes in order to become a more efficient machine, we have to train our bodies to burn fuel that way. For me it is a long term goal, as well as all the other benefits of IF. Maybe we need to be hungry and fatigued sometimes while still training, and that's the way we get through race day faster and more efficient. That old runner and his physiology at 70+ has me really thinking about this stuff..

Anyway good discussion, I'm so glad I found IF, now going to push out the boundaries a bit and see if I can get even more benefits..After only 3 1/2(now at 7+) months my T went up 18% and I lost 15 lbs, along with a lot of other positive blood markers. Hopefully that was not the ceiling, better warn my wife though...(-;

 
A simple article I followed to assist me through some of my thoughts and decisions:

http://idaimakaya.com/articles/fasted-training/


Just to further note, sometime my post workout refueling is just a Banana/Apple and small protein powder shake. Does not even touch 200cals sometimes. I always train fasted, and like yourself, are now at a point that a 2 hour long aerobic (Z1-Z2) run can be done with just water - feeling I could go on for atleast another hour.


Its just fantastic when you get to those stages in your training.

Are BCAAs sufficient for post workout recovery or should I increase my eating window to 12 hour?


If your eating window is 12 hours, you're not really doing IF. For health reasons (ie. lowering insulin), the ideal fast is at least 18 hours so you're eating window is no more than 6 hours.


Also like coffee on the hour long commute to work, but should I do this post workout and before my first meal?


One of the real benefits of IF is autophagy. Autophagy is linked to protein so even a little cream in your coffee would stop that process. If you want to fast and practice IF, you have to really fast which means no calories for ideally 18 hours per day. Cream in your coffee is fine as long as it's in that 6 hour eating window. That is IF.

Monty,
Thanks for keeping us updated on your progress...I'm using you as my own personal guinea pig.

How sure are you that it's the fasting time window making a difference and not the reduced amount of calories you taking in by not eating as much/often?

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

How sure are you that it's the fasting time window making a difference and not the reduced amount of calories you taking in by not eating as much/often?



I'm absolutely sure, as the IF is the only step I have taken, still eat the same stuff, in about the same amount. So my weight loss has stalled, so I guess now on to phase two, clean up the diet a bit, and just a few less calories. And in the past I have lost some weight in the traditional way, and I never had a change in blood markers, especially as drastic as I got. So there is no doubt that I went in the good direction and it was not just the variance one can see from test to test. 30 year low white cell counts, when I had been at the top of the range for almost all of those years. Guessing that is overall inflammation going down, but also just my body being able to relax too. Already mentioned the T increase. I have been lucky to have a very high level throughout my life, but it began to go down little by little starting about 20 years ago. I went under 500 for the first time in my life about a year ago, seeing just gradual drops every test. The last one had me up for the first time in ages, so very interested to see the next one after 8 months of IF..


On top of all that stuff, just feeling better and working out faster than I had been in a long time. And typically a guy my age is not supposed to get faster, but since I was not in great health I guess, I have room to improve in spite of the aging decline...

Thank you for the reply!!

I'm typically a skeptic when it comes to stuff like this...but it sound promising.

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

Eating late would be tough. Don't want to eat within 3 hours of going to sleep, and trying harder to get to get 7-8 hrs which gets difficult waking at 4:30-5:30.

Helpful article, especially this part.
Q. I normally train in the mornings and was wondering about the implications fasting until 1.30pm (and not refueling immediately post-workout). I will obviously be missing the 30-minute optimum post-training window if I do this. Is there anything I need to consider with reference to this?
A. Regarding morning training, it is fine to eat immediately after. What you would then do is use longer fasts on your non-training days. If you exercise every day you really should find at least one complete rest day, when no training is done at all. On that complete rest day do a 20-24 hour fast (from your last meal the previous day until your last mealtime of the next day). If you have 2 rest days a week, then do that twice. On the training days be sure to control how much food you eat.
Thanks all to the other comments. Only drink black coffee so no concerns with that.

Hi Monty! I want to start a IF regimen now that I'm offseason. I have never done anything like it.
How would you recommend I'd start? I do my workouts almost always in the evening, between 6 and 9 PM. Saturdays and sundays vary, if I wake up early and go train with my team.
Breakfast is around 9 to 10, lunch around 2 and dinner around 10pm now.

Hi Monty

Are you racing on this IF regime? And when you talk about being fine on 2 hour hard workouts, are they hard steady rides where you're not spending much time above threshold, or a lot more varied? I've been experimenting a bit with IF but trying to combine with a reasonable training load. I'm training for 70.3, not many individual workouts >2 hours (though quite a few days with >2 hours aggregate training). I have no problem running up to 2 hours on an empty stomach and don't need to immediately refuel. What kills me are the group rides, particularly with rolling hills where there's a lot of time spent above FTP on the front and on hills (and a lot of time spent spinning fairly easily in the pack and descents). I guess the high intensity is burning through my glycogen a lot quicker, I struggle on those rides unless I eat a decent breakfast beforehand, and I find I also need something afterwards to help recovery or else I'm pretty exhausted for the rest of the day.

I don't really want to give up the group rides as I love the social side of it (and the rest of my training is mostly solo for logistical reasons) and I get great training benefit from them. Guess I could just give myself a break from the IF on the group ride days, but would prefer to find a routine that works every day if possible as it's much easier to ingrain the habit that way.

How would you recommend I'd start? I do my workouts almost always in the evening, between 6 and 9 PM. Saturdays and sundays vary, if I wake up early and go train with my team.
Breakfast is around 9 to 10, lunch around 2 and dinner around 10pm now. //

With your schedule here I would just skip the late dinner. That would give you about a 19 hour fast time, that is about what I get right now. On the weekends when you do morning workouts, eat the night before dinner and skip breakfast, going to the 12 to 2pm start time for eating. That's what I would do in your situation..

Are you racing on this IF regime? And when you talk about being fine on 2 hour hard workouts, are they hard steady rides where you're not spending much time above threshold, or a lot more varied? //

I have only done 2 races during the IF, and I ate a breakfast before each. But I felt sluggish in each, and the next race I'm just going to eat later the night before and race fasted. I really feel good on workouts, and a lot of them(most actually) are intervals and very hard sessions. I do not bonk and have never felt depleted. I think having my body being able to not have to think about digesting food and having an empty stomach, is the way to race for me. Of course we are talking 2 1/2 hours or less, so that has to be a consideration in your case. And burning high levels of glycogen in race pace stuff, just hasn't tapped me out, at least not past what would have been normal anyway.


You know, sometimes when you train with others faster than you, you are just going to blow up and bonk sometimes, no matter what you did before. So factor that into how you feel, perhaps you were just supposed to fail and feel bad, going over your limits is not supposed to feel good...

Perfect! should I worry about getting some recovery nutrition after my afternoon workouts? or is that the point in doing this?

I believe that is the point, and that is what I do too, train during the fasting hours to supercharge them. If you think about it, just fasting for 18 hours is going to burn about 1500 calories give or take on your BMR. If you then do a workout during that time and burn another 1000 to 2000 calories, you have virtually doubled the burn from stores, and to me it has mimicked an extra day of just passive fasting.

It may not work exactly like that, but logically this burnt calories have to come from somewhere, perhaps a difference of opinions on where...

Thanks, that's helpful. And yes, very familiar with the feeling of just over extending myself trying to keep up with faster riders! Another good reason for doing those rides. But that's not what's happening, there's a noticeable performance difference (corroborated by the power meter) depending on whether I fuel beforehand or not. And definitely a big difference in my ability to get through the day without resembling a zombie if I take on calories afterwards. Will keep experimenting, maybe just really loading up on dinner the night before will help.

Awesome! thanks for your guidance and fast response! I will let you know how this goes :)

Hi Monty! I have started fasting and been reducing an hour each week from 12/12 to 9/17 this week. I skip breakfast. Next week I'll be 8/16.
Can I drink coffee, black, with one splenda packet, during the fast? Or what can I drink?

Black coffee or other no calorie drinks, I would stay away from artificial sweeteners

Perfect. Now I heard something about coffee in an empty stomach that migh cause acid reflux or things related to that. Have you heard that? I have been doing coffee in the morning and felt no effects to that, but again, I'm only on the third week in.

Once in awhile I get some gastric distress from the black coffee, but it sorts out pretty quickly. In those rare cases, I drink some water first, and that seems to get rid of any distress. I also cut the caffeine content of the coffee more, that also seems to help..

Monty, you seem to have become the IF guru of ST! I have a question for ya. A little background though first. I had surgery for endofibrosis (iliac artery) almost 6 weeks ago. I started doing IF fasting after 3 days out of the hospital and have lost 12 pounds during this time which is pretty amazing considering I've been off the bike (just a cyclist). I have been doing a lot of walking though. My routine is to eat dinner by 7pm or so and not eat until the next day at noon. I don't usually get a full 18 hours, more like 16 or 17 of fasting.

What I've noticed in the mid morning, and usually before dinner, is when I stand up from sitting I get quite dizzy. I'm assuming this is because of low blood pressure and/or low electrolytes? I'm thinking about introducing an electrolyte supplement with water ( not sugar) in the mid morning and late afternoon. Have you experienced this at all?

I just had my follow up visit with my surgeon today and have the green light to ride again, so I'll have to figure out how to incorporate riding into this routine. So far I'm pretty amazed how east it has been and how good I feel.

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 I'm thinking about introducing an electrolyte supplement with water ( not sugar) in the mid morning and late afternoon. Have you experienced this at all? //

I dont get dizzy, but I do get low on electrolytes, so I take one saltstix two to three times before I eat my first meal. I know because I get crampy, and the saltstix gets rid of it almost immediately. I also like to work out fasted every day, so of course that burns through some too, as well as the diuretic effect of drinking all that coffee on an empty stomach..

 
Thanks Monty.

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And keep in mind that I'm not the expert on this, not even sure there are folks that know most of what is going on. It is the Wild West as to IF, and there are a ton of different plans out there. Thing is, dont buy anything that someone is selling, unless it is a book on what their theory is. And chances are that you can get all that info for free online anyway.

I just had this discussion with a friend who is looking at the 25 day/5day 800 calorie plan. I dont consider that fasting, unless you eat all 800 calories in a very small window every day. If you space them out like you would 3 meals, well that is just a losing weight diet, not fasting.. And they want to sell you all kinds of fasting mimicking foods, like we dont have those foods available anyway..

Honestly, it has not been that hard to just go straight to 18 hours a day, and training in that window everyday too. Next up is pushing out to 2/3 days with light training, that ought to target the deepest, darkest, shitty cells roaming around my body..(-;

Ha, no I totally get you’re not an expert! Like you said, it’s a bit of the Wild West. I’m doing a very basic version where I’m not eating after dinner until lunch. I’m eating all high nutrient food, but no hard restrictions. My motivation to do this was the fear of gaining too much weight while recovering from surgery - the surprising thing is that I actually lost weight - a significant amount too!

Now that I have the green light to ride again, I’ll keep the IF going while I slowly incorporate easy riding. I don’t anticipate that it will get more complicated until my intensity and duration on the bike goes up. I’m in no hurry.

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THIS IS THE WORST SCIENCE AND FACTS I HAVE SEEN IN SOME TIME ON HERE???

YOUR BMR is running if you are fasting or not.


The only result here is placebo and LOWERING YOUR DAILY CALORIES!

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

THIS IS THE WORST SCIENCE AND FACTS I HAVE SEEN IN SOME TIME ON HERE???

YOUR BMR is running if you are fasting or not. //

STOP SHOUTING!! There was no science or facts presented here, so what the hell are you talking about? OF course your BMR is running, it runs all the time, everyday that your'e are alive. My point was, that if you train fasted, you get to burn your BMR and the workout calories, at the same time. IT would be an on top of burn by working out fasted.


And what the hell placebo are you going on about? IS it a placebo if the scale says you are lighter, your bloodwork says you have lowered all the bad numbers, and raised all the good ones? Didn't know you could trick your blood, but please do tell...

Its a placebo when you think it is from fasting rather then a caloric deficit.

the Results you state are found in every diet ever tested and studied when you have a caloric deficit.

Your other statement is wrong and makes no sense.

I am done these topics go no where people hold onto diets like religion until a new diet comes out.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

It is surprising, to say the least, that you are calling bad science when you can barely write intelligibly.

Maybe you should check the meaning of placebo and what IF is about. It is not a diet as you seem to understand diets. IF is about when you eat, not how much or what you eat.

Not going to argue about the definition of what a diet is, but I think it's a valid point that weight loss resulting from IF is (almost) certainly a result of calorie reduction, like every other weight loss approach out there. Most people will reduce the amount of calories they take on if they're only allowed to eat in a 6 or 8 hour window. As a weight loss approach I've found it highly effective as it has the merits of being both simple to understand (no calorie counting, food logging, studying lists of ingredients, etc, just don't eat before and after a certain time each day) and easy to stick at.

The question is whether IF has additional benefits. E.g. Improving the body's ability to use fat as an energy source. Improving blood values and other measures (by a greater degree than just losing weight would already achieve). I honestly don't know, but my take is that I'm happy with it anyway as an effective way to achieve and maintain better body composition, and any other benefits on top are a bonus.

What I don't fully understand is why most doing IF while having early morning workouts don't chose their eating window during the workout period? It would seem logical to me that you would chose a 5am-1pm eating window if you typically do all your workouts for the day early morning. "Train like you race" suggests you need to be fueling during your workouts.

If you really want a thing with a name like Intermittent Fasting rather than just "eating less" or "skipping meals", look up Early Time Restricted Feeding (ETRF), which means you eat early but don't eat late. It has two more words than Intermittent Fasting and has research papers and everything. You can eat before your workouts and still be doing a cool thing with a name as your strategy to eat less.