What yaw sweep did you test out to?

It may help lower your drag #s if you move your elbows further forward.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
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Only 5 degrees yaw. The second picture is close to how the position ended. The third is the baseline. We tried elbows in, rasing the bar step by step up to praying mantis.

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Speedplay aero pedals.

Anything else you can do to reduce the qfactor - I think it was Jens who went very very narrow to find the aero improvement. Speedplay can be found with shorter spindles, but I think you need to do more than that to get the aero improvement.

Edit: shoes could be a source of an upgrade too.

The issue with Speedplay aero pedals is that I lose power meaurment. And then have to get a crank based power meter. I truly love my Assioma Duo and would prefer to keep them. How much more aero can pedals become? Have anyone good data on it?

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Jim at ERO ran a test:

http://www.ero-sports.com/...lay-zero-aero-pedals

TLDR 3-5 watts 1:00 - 2:00 over IM

u using ceramic stuff? pulleys, bearings in wheels etc

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First you need a different bike

Ditch the front derailleur and run 1X. Vision Aero crankset. Use a PowerTap rear hub for the power meter (most aero option for a power meter). Better shoes and SpeedPlay aero pedals with some of the short axles to narrow the Q-factor.

Like what?

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Anything but a shitty QR but if you need a list I'd start with these:

Pinarello Bolide
Factor Slick
Trek Speed Concept
BMC TimeMachine
Look 796 Monoblade
Cervelo P5
Canyon Speedmax
Scott Plasma

and even a:

Cube Aerium
Specialized Shiv (pre 2018 disaster models)
Giant Trinity

It's funny to say "fastest triathlon bike" when showing a picture on a QR lol what a mess

Is ceramic more aero? First time I hear this.

I have ceramic bottom bracket, but not in the Chris King R45 hubs or pulleys. It might be worth upgrading.

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May I ask why you believe this?

I just been in the wind tunnel and got fantastic results and believe it would be difficult on a shitty bike.

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There are a number of bikes on your list that are proven to be slower than others on the list.
Do you have any data or just perception of the brands?

The QR is at least in the mix, given the breadth of the field you've listed.

Frame: Quintana Roo PRSix Disc in size 52Aerobar: Morf-Tech TriFoldSeat: Specialized SiteroGear: Sram EtapBrakes: Sram Hydraulic disc brakesCrankset: Praxis Zayante 170mm carbon crank with Praxis Cold Forged X-Rings with 53/39tWheels: Enve 7.8 SES Disc Tubeless front and rear + a Roval 321 Disc wheel comingTires: Schwalbe Pro One TubelessBottle frame: Xlab Aero TTPedals: Assioma Duo Power pedals

What's the total cost of all that little lot then??

Which tests support your claim?
And how do you know Alan would become more aero in those frames (total drag-wise, complete system)

You wanted to make the worlds fastest triathlon bike but sounds like your already making compromises with pedals. Also If you want the fastest bike you would prob want to switch frames, I like the QR frame but a p5x, P5 or SC I believe all have tested fasterer. Maybe your header is misleading “help me make the fastest triathlon bike ever” your more asking help me optimize my current set up given my set preferences.

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2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

I don't see your shoes listed... And the pictures look too be velcro
I got 5ish watts moving to laces (like many in this forum)

Also how did you decide on schwalbe tires If you are only looking for pure speed, don't the Vitoria basically blow everyone away?

(or gp tt if you don't want it to fall apart when you look at it?)

Also, when I was speaking to one of the vision guys at kona (I was cheering, not racing), I heard some pretty cool stuff in the metron aero crankset .. Not sure if anyone has tested in real life but dollar not an object, id test that

Ps.. Also saw a handful of watts from speedplay aero pedals fwiw

As some others have said, there’s a *chance* you’re giving up a few watts with your pedals/shoes. Pedal/shoe aero is not universal (as I found out at A2) but that doesn’t mean that substantial gains don’t exist.

As for a bike, if you’re going for the absolute fastest setup you likely want to be on either a Speed Concept or a P5.

What helmets did you test?

that third pic is pretty horrible

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Like others have said, a P5, P5x, and SC are going to be faster. I would try to get more reach on the QR if you can as you look scrunched. Your LG shoes are slow. Look at some Giro Empire shoes with elastic laces. How did the xlab bottle test? I would imagine that’s adding some drag for you. There are faster tires out there than the Schwabe (Victoria Corsa speed are the fastest tire out there).

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You said the second pic was the fastest, with your arms angled up. You're resting on the top part of the pads, I'm wondering if it's worth cutting off the bottom half of the pads given they are angling down into the wind? But without tunnel testing no one knows.

on the whole, this is pretty terrible advice.

Isn't OP looking to build the fastest possible bike, not just the most aero?

what's actually your goal? is your goal to promote your "project" / yourself? then what you're doing is a valid step in that process, i suppose. if your goal is to actually become the "fastest triathlete on earth" you're probably going to have to stop doing Norseman.

on a more serious note, your position looks pretty severely reach-limited, and you're on a QR PR so you don't have many options unless you can get your hands on their new stem. so the bike isn't really going to get much faster, because you are not going to get much faster.

also interesting that you only tested out to 5. what are your normal race speeds and wind conditions?

Proving speed play aero pedals are faster than regular speed play pedals. Not necessarily faster than his current pedals.

I’ve read how difficult it is to do comparisons across systems because of stack height differences requiring seat adjustments and maybe fore/aft movement of the cockpit.

Aerocoach did a cfd as well if I recall on the speedplay aero.

Finding an aero shoe with four bolt attachment and running speedplay aero should be a pretty accepted practice.

The P1’s are the worst aero pedal I’ve read somewhere on this forum they can be as bad as a 10w penalty over a traditional pedal. The Faveros are better, but they are not as low profile as the Vector 3s. So my guess and it’s just a guess is you would get a bigger bump going from Favero to Speedplay aero than EROs study shows.

On the whole maybe but I was asked which bike would be faster and there’s a long list before any bike made by QR would be considered. Maybe people in general like the bike. I can agree with that but as the fastest bike for a top level athlete definitely not.

If you had your choice to have the fastest bike and be the fastest triathlete ever which would be your choice? It certainly wouldn’t be a QR you can admit that much.

Fast and fastest ever are two different things as you know. The fastest frames tend the be fastest independent of rider so maybe you could switch frames and compare that to current results and you’ll have your answer. If you’re truly on a quest to be the fastest triathlete ever that would be where I’d start.

If you want to PM or email me your run list I can look at it and make suggestions for the next time you're heading back to test. You didn't mention if you tried sliding the elbow pads forward 5mm or even 1cm. That would be one suggestion especially if you've got pretty good ROM through the shoulders. IDK if your current set up is reach limited or not. You may need the new longer) QR stem to slide forward that far.

Did you test helmets? Did you test that helmet plugged vs unplugged and shield vs sunglasses? I'm assuming so, but if not there could be as much as 10w right there.

I may also test out to -7.5 yaw if it were me. Although I don't know your avg speeds when you race so maybe -5 is good.

IDK if you've got someone helping you with the testing or not. By helping I mean going over what you want to accomplish before you get into the tunnel, your goals for that session etc. If not LMK and we can skype before you test next time so you've got an outline of what you want to test, what needs to be tested before or after what etc so you're maximizing your time in the tunnel.

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We get it, you don't like QR.

Quoted for truth. OP wants to make worlds fastest bike, but is willing to compromise. I'd love to see a project where the person starts from the ground up: pick a frame, etc. based solely on performance. I'd hate to see what it would cost though. I also doubt you could get ST to actually agree on pretty much anything.

I apologize for not being clear enough about the project. My goal is to become the most aerodynamic triathlete on earth (adjusted for being 181 cm), and I choose both frame and equipment without being sponsored (now I am a QR ambassador).

The reason for choosing QR PRsix was the disc brakes with the P5X as the only other option since BMC could not deliver in time. I went for QR due to lighter weight and ease of traveling. The reason for choosing disc brakes is that super fast and dangerous downhills in Norseman were you can reach the speed of 100km/h. It will also enable much faster and safer technical riding all over.

Compromises are unavoidable. I want to keep my power pedals as I travel regularly without my bike and train in other bikes using the same pedals. Moving to Vector 3 might be an option if they were more aerodynamic, but I do not want to go back to crank based power meters.

Vittoria speed is the fastest but also very fragile. A friend of mine blew this tire going downhill on the Norseman course and I opted for Corsa G+ instead this year.

Being able to ride the position for 180km is also a requirement since that is what I am going to do.

My reason for making this post was to get good advices from knowledgeable people. I do not need to promote anything

Btw, my lowest Cda was 0,1748, so it cannot be all bad.

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more things that are not true

About $20.000

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I use LG Tri 400 and happily take advice on more aero alternatives.

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What's wrong w/ QR? Serious question as I was looking at the PR5disc vs some other bikes.

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Giro empire slx with elastic laces are popular on this board.
I race in Giro prolights (but no flying mount with them)

Abs I think Scott just released a boa version with the boa on the heel and a clean front (but haven't tested)

There a defentaly quite a few people here on ST (and in this thread) that have done exactly this, and it can def be done for under 15k.

This build is already compromised but: fit should probably be tweaked (Brian Stover could probably help with that), pedals should be changed, disc wheel added, no bottles on inside of frame triangle, helmet choice should possibly be adjusted and re tested with and without visor.

Sorry if I sound like I am now trolling this but lets call this thread: “optimize my setup” rather then “....worlds fastest triathlon bike...” since this in not the worlds fastest triathlon bike.

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2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

Maybe it wasn't fully clear to everyone in his first post. He has clarified it now. He is looking to the most aero possible.

Rim brakes?

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Cannot be that hard to convert 😉

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Good answer to the question

If your goal is to be the most aero on earth, you can't make compromises. The P5x is the fastest bike on the planet. So just with the bike choice, you have already left time on the table. You may be able to get pretty aero with the QR but it's not going to get you to be the most aero on earth.

So do you want to be the most aero on earth or do you just want to optimize your QR to be as aero as possible? They are mutually exclusive.

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The bike is totally acceptable for most triathletes, it just isn't the fastest bike out there. The QR people will even tell you so much in their presentations, instead focusing on qualities about bikes that the "crowd" can benefit from. At the end of the day if you like the QR then go for it, but in a thread with such a hyperbolic title it has not place an is akin to an oxymoron in language when talking about building the fastest triathlon bike.

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Fwiw, I can't take this post seriously with things like "xlab aero tt bottle" or a valve extender that is way way too long, a helmet strap that is twisted presenting far more surface area to the wind, a bulky tri shoe with straps, a QR PRSIX, disc brakes. I like the project, and the idea, and the transparency (if it comes), but there should be no sacred cows so if you are serious about building the fastest bike get a Cervelo P5 and paint it with either a QR logo or put different partner as the paint job like Morf-Tech.

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Wait...are you wanting the fastest bike or are you wanting to save money or fulfill your preferences??? you discarded advice in the name of your preferences and 💵

You need to change your front wheel is you’re dead-set on discs. Either the Roval CLX 64 or 50 depending on how deep you’re willing to go.

What tunnel did you test at? Just like any measurement device, the tunnel you tested at might be repeatable but not accurate. The cda it spit out for you is fairly meaningless unless validated elsewhere.

I agree with the others here: you need to change the thread title.

As far as style and performance most amateurs can just pick their bike and have fun so if that’s your style then nothing wrong with that but if you’re trying to be “the fastest” there are better options.

IMO the stem is a disaster and front end is made more for adjustability and traveling ease rather than cable and aero optimization. It’s a bit heavy for me compared to others in its class. Seat post clamp has a bad design.

Still waiting on you backing up your claims with any sort of proof. The way you insist on those claims, should be no problem showing us the tests and results of all those bikes beating the QR.

 
Hello Allan

I understand the quest to lowest possible CdA (based on your 181 cm and morphology). It is fun, and efficient.

I also understand you made some initial choices, such as disk braking for safety (make sense) and frame (expensive to test a lot of frames, especially disk equipped). In any case, approx 75% of the drag being rider body, so here is the main thing. Not the only one, of course.

It will be interesting to see results with different positions, from picture 3 "standard" to more "praying mantis" like picture 2, especially with the Morftec.
Did you tested the "total mantis" of Antony Costes ?
Did you tested different suit (the new Castelli PR, Endura with vortex generators, vs more classic ?) and different helmets ?

Chris Boardman with Superman position on the Lotus 108 (for pursuit and Hour record) was apparantly around 0,175 and 0.18
Apparantly you went below this level, with 0,1748. Would be curious to see a picture of the config.
Somehow, you get already more aero than Superman :-)

Dowsett (182 cm - 75kg ?) apparently went also between 0,175 and 0,18 for its HR, with a relatively "classic low mantis" position (11cm drop saddle to pads, UCI compatible). With double disks.

It raise another question : how to compare CdA between different peoples, different size and weight ?
Lets limit to men : answer could be divide CdA by height (in meter) or by weight.

Same questions I had as well. My CDa is pretty darned low and from what I have been told from reliable sources it’s pretty hard for a male to get down in the 0.17-0.19 range (unless your simply a shorter smaller dude) You could also probably get your CDa down but could be at expense or loss of power thus not making sense and can you even hold that postion over say 4-5 hours. That particular bar I also can’t see be able to get into a good downhill aero tuck in either (but I guess I could be wrong) so your giving up watts on downhills for watts savings on the flats.

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2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

FD?
Crank/chainring combo?
Disc brakes?
Frame?
Bottle in the triangle?
Pedal choice?

Other than aerobar and wheel choice, I’m not really sure what else is actually optimized on this set up (and even wheel choice is questionable)

Hello Allan,

what is that thing strapped to the bottom of your aerobars? What happens when you open those bars into "base bar" mode?
https://instagram.fprg2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/vp/4ad9a68aef27397ef9f7bae44db14cd0/5C95705B/t51.2885-15/e35/45715094_358284374923672_3361305709994454298_n.jpg

You can actually get into an excellent down hill tuck. Just retract the bar and put your hands on the "tops" if that makes any sense. You end up in basically the same position as Kienle's "top tube safe" descent position.

The tunnel you tested at needs to be calibrated.............

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-Brad Williams
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Looks like the new Boradman tunnel.

Or is it a matter of trade-off "CdA vs sustainable power" ?

One of the interesting things I noticed in a stack zero report was the amazing amount of poor reattachment coming off....basically your ass😀

How can we make your ass more aero? I know there were some pretty wild designs in the 90’s.

Of course for the OP maybe a dash saddle would get his bottle 3-4 cm closer.

Honestly don’t know if it’s a real problem...perhaps worthy of someone looking at storage options around there?

Having seen some of the weird designs...as an age grouper, I am not sure if the watts are worth the ridicule.

Maurice

Not sure we are talking about the same thing.... but I'm not sure re-attachement is a good thing at this... place.

If you re-attach before/in this low pressure zone, you increase drag.

On cars for example the ideas currently experienced are to detach the layer at the back (end of roof on a SUV/break, for example), via for example vortex generator (same you find in the arms of speesuit, spots or lines) in order to make limit layer turbulent and avoid next layer to stay attached and sucks the back of the car.

Nothing.

However when you title a thread “Help me make the worlds fastest triathlon bike even better” you’re going to get stick.

It would be better to title it: “feedback on improvements I can make to my existing setup to get more aero” and the thread would have gone a different way.

Oh, and when you admit you’re a ‘brand ambassador’ several posts into the thread it doesn’t help that you didn’t mention that at a start (#advertising).

I do have a QR. So not bashing the bike, just that all bikes have compromises.

Even QR wouldn’t claim it’s a fast as a P5X. Easier to live with? Yes - they’d claim that. Cheaper. Yes - they’d claim that too. Easier the travel with? Yep, I’m going to say they’d get away with that as well. Nicer looking? Subjective, but most would not disagree too harshly.

I’d also say that most ST’ers would say the PR5 you’re thinking about has a better front end setup than the PR6 he’s posting about too.

Dan

This in data based or just your emotional opinion?

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A thought that has bounced in my head for a couple of days: Is the egg position (O'Bree/Old Faithful) legal in tri? rideable? Any other reason noone chases that posture?

CDW who posts on here occasionally races or raced in an egg position. I remember him passing me at Du Nationals. He couldn't corner or U turn very well though.
Maybe he can chime in a bit about it

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Brian Stover USAT LII
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After reading through your posts I think a few things

You're not going to achieve the lowest CdA possible with your compromises. I also don't think that's a bad thing necessarily.

if you can ride 180k on 300 less kJ through lowered drag and ride the same or faster speeds that's a win imo. If you lose too much power, and at some point you're trading power for less drag and (hopefully) more speed, if you lose too much power you may actually be further behind where you could be.

Honestly without knowing what you tested, (positions, helmets, equipment) people are throwing darts in the dark to help you. Maybe shed some light on that and you'll get better answers.

And yes .175-1.80 Cda is pretty damn good already. My question to you would be is it worth another $1200-2000 to get that down to .170 or .172?

Sometimes when I test people in the tunnel I make the decision that their reductions are good enough. Sure we could chase another 2-3-4w reduction by moving them this way or that or we could move onto testing other things that will probably yield a larger savings. At a certain point, which admittedly varies person to person, they are pretty dialed in. It doesn't make sense to keep chasing. Now if they are at a .225 then yes chase. .190? IDK if it's worth chasing that slightly lower number. In the real world is .185 really going to make that big of a difference? On the velodrome sure, outside probably not as much

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Specifically for Norseman you use toe covers - test with those on. I have to assume a shoe you can slip into (lace ups) with a cover (with a rear zipper or maybe velotoze booties) would easily beat your current set up.

Trek developed the "two pack" BTS bottle holder for the Speed Concept to address this. However, they never brought it to market (I don't know why).

When I saw English Cycles did an O'Bree build I started to experiment with the position indoors on the trainer (convoluted bar, stem, spacer setup on an old road bike). Even at its best it's extremely uncomfortable... and that's indoors without having to deal with imperfect pavement. I don't think it would be viable for more than a sprint. Maybe an Olympic.

Ditch the downtube bottle. Custom top tube storage box extended to be hydration also.

Or, just a better inside the frame bottle.

Invent shoe covers integrated to the shoe with quick zip at back.

Custom length valve extenders with the aero “nut”.

Ratchet rear deraileur and more inboard gearing. Or in a flat course ride single speed. Not sure on losses vs aero of a limited internal hub. Run no FD if flatter.

Sorry, I’m an engineer.

Untwist your helmet straps.
Can you infill the space below/behind your bottle with a "storage" unit?

You can actually get in the best possible tuck with the Morf-Tech. Lars Christian Vold, who rides with them, beat my ass in the downhills in Norseman reaching 99km/h while I only hit 93km/h. Then and there I decided that my next bike would have Morf-Tech bars. https://triallan.com/...man-downhill-riding/

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Search for allometric scaling and time trials, there is a bit of stuff around this already

I understand I was way too unspecific about my mission for (rightfully) pick STer. And yes I should have mentioned that I was a Quintana Roo ambassador. It was not my intention to hide it. The topic text is changed.


My overall goal is to swim, bike and run as fast as possible. When it comes to the bike part the wished outcome is to ride 180km as fast as possible without sacrificing the ability to do a well-executed run.


When my contract with Boardman bikes ended this season I needed to find a new bike and free to chose whatever I liked. Disc brakes were one of the things I wanted due to both safety in racing, training and enable faster descents. I also believe it is going to become faster in a few years as it gives much more freedom regarding the design. For that reason, I have left with my options QR PRsix disc, Cervelo P5x and BMC TM01 Disc. Considering aerodynamic, weight (Norseman is hilly), ease of travelling and the fact that the supplier of QR in Norway was keen on helping me with the bike, also regarding service and technical help, I thought that would be my best choice.


After Lars Christian Vold crushed me in the descents under Norseman 2018 with the Morf-Tech bar, achieving a position I could not compete with, I decided that the Morf-Tech TriFold bars would be on my next bike.


Other than that, I am free pretty much free to do and change what I want. In Utopia, it would, of course, be cool to have both the P5x and TM01 with identical setups and go to the tunnel. In reality that is not easy to do. So for now just think that the bike and aero bars are set.


In order to validate my aerodynamics, I will use both wind tunnel and the Notio Konect, which measures drag in real-life conditions. That tool will enable me to test different things as we go along.
Regarding compromises. As a triathlete, you need to make compromises regarding aerodynamics if you want to swim, bike and run as fast as possible. You could nearly always be more aerodynamic by going lower in front, but if it makes you unable to hold the position for 180k, then it is a waste. The same for tires. If you crash when going downhill in 80km/h due to a sidewall puncture on you Vittoria Speed, you will not be very fast. Also, removing water/nutrition bottles will also not be very fast (moving them is something else).


I hope that cleared things, so we could keep the tread as constructive as possible.


I will provide all the numbers from the Boardman wind tunnel with all the different setups as soon as I get them, which hopefully will be today. btw, when I was in the tunnel I had gotten the bike and the rest of the equipment just a few days before so it was a bit undone.

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Interesting
Basically with the Morftec in config "basebar" you can put your head at the place of the aerobar, and be in very optimal egg position

Do you swim and run in the trip socks? Or are those "just" compression socks?

They are the Bioracer Aero Tube - https://www.bioracer.com/...ar-concept-aero-tube

Not compression, just aero. I did not try a test without them, as the guys in the tunnel said that people generally test better with them. I had 2 hours in the tunnel and we tested a lot of different things, but stil got short on time.

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I need one bottle with all my nutrition for 180k (usually the aero bottle on the frame) and I need a place to put a regular bottle that I pick up on aid stations. If I get a front hydration solution I can put water in it and put the bottle as it is emptied in the bottle behind the seat until liter zone. Where should my nutrition bottle go then? Is there another bottle faster than the Xlab TT? BTW, it must be able to see thru as I have control over how much nutrition I have gotten in.

I have thought about making the integrated shoe covers actually, but don't see that happening in the immediate future. Any other solutions?

I got the valve extenders from Enves own tubeless kit. Is it anything to gain by changing that on? The ones one the picture are regular tubes with too long valves as I was not able to put on the tires in time.

Riding 1x was one of my ambitions but I could not get the math together as I am riding hilly races. In Norseman I am a lot of the long uphills on 39/11 and on 53/11 on the downhills. Changing back and forth from race to race seems like a lot of hassle as well, but I don't know as I have never tried it.

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I tested the following helmets:

• Kask Mistral
• LG P09
• Endura Drag2Zero
• Giro Airhead taped (ventilation and under the tail)
• Giro Airhead
• Specialized S-Works

The list is arranged after performance with only 2 watts difference with Mistral and P09

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Matt Hanson has tested a ton of hydration options on his PRSix at the velodrome, and he uses a Torhans VR on his seat tube...I doubt that's by accident, so perhaps another option for you to explore.

Interesting. What order did you test in? Did you establish equipment first or position first?

The Torhans VR is not officially available in Europe and I heard is not very leakproof. It has 590 ml which is about the same as the xlab aero tt has.
I do not know if the cage holds the bottle well at vibrations, the xlab aero tt cage holds alledgedly very good.

Do you run in them as well? Compressions socks tend to lower on my calves, or are otherwise annoying. Would give this a try, especially if it save me seconds on the bike :)

Had a look to the site, but impossible to buy (or get a price).

No triathlon product on their webshop, no triathlon products on other sites, no shop 100km around Paris, ...

Funny to develop products and not sell them. Too recent ?

Is the P09 custom paint? I've been wanting them to make a blacked out version!

I also doubt his solution is an accident, but he is sponsored by Torhans and I am not sure what other things he tested or if he did a compromise a small aero gain for a potential economical benefit.

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No, it is stock and I got it in 2016. A very good helmet btw.

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I have no clue how recent they are, but I got passed on the bike by a very fast guy during Ironman Barcelona with them and knew he was a good bike who knew what he was doing. Therefor I decided to give them a try, but I got them thru their Norwegian distributor.

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I just got the wind tunnel data so now I can reply better to questions. This is my fastest position with a 1-minute average CdA of 0,1748. Measured in the new Boardman Wind Tunnel at 5 degrees yaw.

And yes, the aerobar extentions are too long, but we would not cut them too much before the fit.

.

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The only thing I really changed regarding the position was rasing the arm angle. Does it work over 180k? We will find out in Patagonman 9.December ;)

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That's a very low cda. Eyeballing your fit, normally I would say you should consider adding a bit more reach but it appears that you have a pretty good "shrug" despite having your elbows relatively far back. One thing I would suggest just from a practical/comfort standpoint are the angled armrests from Watt Shop:

https://www.shopforwatts.co.uk/.../dirtyaero-arm-rests

Thanks Allan for the info and pictures.

Several questions and comments arise :

0) congrats for the result. Impressive !

1) What is the black "thing" below the bars, half round, looks like a water tank ?
Significant impact on CdA ?

2) 0.175 is very very low. The lower CdA I knew for a man is Dan Bigham (now part of Huub Wattbike,) also CdA 0.175
But I guess it was in pursuit config, may be lower than its TT position, and with double disk.
I was expecting for you around .185 at best, with your non-disk wheels and LD may be higher position

3) I'm surprised this CdA is "at 5° yaw". Is CdA calculated relative to full wind speed, or only the "bike direction" component of the wind (x cos (5°))?

4) Did you test with greater reach (so more angled upper arms) ?

Thanks again for sharing.

Nothing valuable to add other than to say thanks for sharing, hoping you get some good debate we can all learn from.

Dan

he doesn't need angled pads because he hasn't angled his arms

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In my experience, an arm setup like the one he shows in this post (above) would tend to slip down/back. If he had more reach that would not be the case. Just my $0.02

Hello Allanhov and All,

I market some items through View-Speed http://www.view-speed.com/ that might help ..... and warrant your consideration ....

With View-Speed Cyclops glasses you can keep a lower head position and still see forward quite well.

It is worth about a 1 mph improvement in the wind tunnel at 20 mph.

The glasses might be illegal for Ironman races (no mirror rule) since a prism is used for forward vision... keeping in mind the intent of the ruling is to prevent a cyclist from using a mirror to see behind ..... to avoid drafting when marshals are near. Should check with race director if entered in an Ironman race before using the glasses.

The View-Speed shoe modification (only with Speedplay pedals) (Measured lowering of drag in San Diego Low Speed Wind Tunnel) and with the crepe sole you can run in them for short distandes.

What stem did you use for the Morf bars? I have a set and I will mount them soon ..... looking at stem choices for a P5.

Which position is faster for descending with Morf bars?





Also what is mounted under the Morf bars on your set up that looks like it would clean up airflow?

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1 - It is a 3D printed water bottle created by Morf-Tech. It was neutral regarding aerodynamics in my cases.

2- I cannot guarantuee how correct the numbers in the Boardman tunnel was, but compared to the other pure time trailist they have tested it was right up there with the best ones. Verification will come with the testing with the Notio.

3 - I forgot to ask why they tested at 5 degree yaw, but my bike was position at 5 degree and the wind speed was 45 km/h

4 - I testet full mantis with identical drag and a horrible feeling. See pic

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Actually, I feel I would prefer a better support with my elbows. On Friday I will meet up with a guy who can make custom made parts of all kinds of materials. Hopefully he will have some spacers to make the pads level, or cups. We can make other cool things as well :D

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I agree. Like I said, we will make a custom made solution to this.

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Position first, equipment second. Since we had the Morf-Tech only half-tightend it was easy to raise and lower the arms as we went a long to do some dynamical testing before we got set in a postition for the 1-min average reading. Very effective in my view.

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Apparantly Kask Mistral and LG 9 performed nearly equivalent for your position.

Endura and BioRacer trisuit performed also equivalent ?

In both lateral view pictures you posted, your humerus is vertical. Personally I prefer much more pad reach, feel more comfortable and powerful. This verticality could be the reason for full mantis feeling horrible.

Nothing to see here... 😉

We (MORF) are working on some BTA concepts that more cleanly integrate and manage airflow around the bike with rider in ways that are possible when no base bar is present. Allan was kind enough to run one of our prototypes designed for more radical bar angles. Much work to do still, but it looks promising👍. Thanks Allan!!!

Thanks,
Frank

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What was the watt difference between the P-09 and the sworks helmet? Was there anything about the sworks that seemed "flawed" or is it just a rider dependant, fit result?

2 watts slower than the P-09. Nothing flawed with the sworks

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These are the same shot correct? Because the side profile makes your back look a lot, lot flatter than the frontal. Not sure I like the camera level on that front shot, but then it's not my tunnel. ;)

Also, I think some have danced around it, but no one is really questioning the 0.175? Even at 5º that sounds really really low. I believe that's what the tunnel spit out, but would that be the same number in (or even close) in A2 or San Diego?

For comparison, I am very small and even at 10º I don't sniff 0.180 let alone 0.175. I am also pretty darn efficient being able to average 25.4mph on 193ish watts.

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Hello

Apparently you consider that increasing yaw improve CdA ?
How is CdA calculated at yaw ?
Taking into account "relative longitudinal wind" vs "longitudinal drag" ?
Or ignoring reduction of "relative longitudinal wind" ?

in frame/wheel yaw testing, graph show drag reduced at small yaw (compare to no yaw), but only because "relative longitudinal wind" is reduced. So "longitudinal drag" goes down also. Does not mean CdA is lower.

Everything I have ever seen shows lower CdA m^2 at say 10º vs 0º. This includes my own trip to A2. Subjectively, I'd rather be riding into any direction wind vs that of a dead on head wind.

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In a wind tunnel, when increasing yaw to 90° :
"relative longitudinal wind" goes to zero progressively
so "longitudinal drag" goes down to zero progressively (in grams)

This does not mean that CdA goes to zero.

In a longitudinal flow at 30mph (i.e bike riding 30mph with no wind), bike + rider at given x CdA, drag is y grams
if you add 5mph lateral wind (so resulting wind is 30.5 mph at some yaw)
not sure the lateral wind will improve efficiency of existing system
not sure new drag y2 will be lower than y

In most cases I have seen (cars), y2 is higher than y
Lateral wind perturbate aero efficiency and increase CdA.

This is why I ask the question when I see the opposite

Is CdA really calculated with longitudinal flow, or total flow, and in this second case, it is not realistic. Useful for comparison at same yaw, but how to compare a .17 at 10° yaw and a .18 at zero yaw ?

Let me back up.....you're saying I shouldn't compare the OP's 5° numbers with mine at 0° or 10°?

Really that is what I was doing. Forget that tunnel numbers go down as one sweeps out or anything else. Also, no one suggested CdA goes down to zero.

Also, why would one add in wind? We are not adding in wind when sweeping in a tunnel correct? What we are saying is that to hold 30mph at this new angle of attack we would need less watts; therefore, ones CdA reads out lower. Is this not the correct interpretation? i.e. in this new direction of attack our shape is more efficient than head on into the wind.

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No. When you are at 0 deg then it's analogous to riding 30mph with no wind. Or sitting still with a 30 mph headwind. If you turn the table to 10 deg then it's analogous to a *resulting* wind vector of 30 mph and 10 deg. If you had a 90 deg crosswind that gave you that result, you'd be traveling at less than 30 mph. It is *not* riding at 30 mph with a crosswind.

Right. I'm terrible at explaining myself. Maybe an example?

25mph ground speed 5mph wind. At 0° you need X watts to hold your 25mph ground speed.

Turn away from the wind at 5° and now you need Y watts to hold your 25mph ground speed.

X>Y

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At Y you have less headwind, so of course that will be easier. But that isn't what is measured in the tunnel. There is no ground speed, only wind and direction.

Understood. But how did we even get on this tangent.

I asked how that number (0.175) might stack up if the OP tested in A2 or San Diego. I should have never given my own numbers for comparison. Gotta love forums. 🙄

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If you are sponsored by LG, you could try these. I have a set and like them. Signature 84. They were a little heavier, more substantial feeling (upper was less flexy), and a little wider and roomier in the toe than the Giro Empires I also tried. If you aren't sponsored, they are cheap ;)

Think of it this way....

If windspeed is 25mph then

Wind at zero yaw is = 25*COS(0) = 25*1 = 25
Apparent Wind at 5deg Yaw is = 25*COS(5) = 25*0.9962 = 24.90

So the cda (at this low yaw angle)is the same but wind speed is lower....

I imagine that the System(bike and rider) cda actually goes up due to other factors at yaw like the system(bike and rider) gets wider..

Thanks for the info. What position was this and what suit? Also, if you could show detail (CdA for each) I'd appreciate it.

 
I made some search to see if CdA of same rider with different yaw was available.

Because it make sense to test at some yaw. In real life, in most case some wind not in the same direction as we are, so 5° yaw is probably more realistic than 0° yaw.
At least for a triathlete, not a pursuiter.

And all comparisons at same yaw make sense.
I mean, if Mistral is 2w faster than S-Works at 30mph 5°yaw, will be same on the road.
If this suit faster than this one at 5° yaw, will be same on the road.

But my question was : is 5° yaw deliver better or worse CdA than 0° yaw ?
Just to know.
And especially, can I compare Allan very low CdA to other CdA at 0°yaw, or calculated from real conditions ?

So, find this :

https://www.researchgate.net/...n_Experimental_Study

Interesting research done at 0, 15, 30, 45° ... until 90°.
Worst CdA is at 15°, but :
not a lot of granularity in measurements
CdA increase much at 15° if torso is higher, not as much if torso is lower

And also this :

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...da_target_P5496638-5

Graph from Andrew Coggan (page 5) show that :
for Superman position, CdA increase at yaw (5 and 10°)
while
for classic aero position, CdA decrease at yaw (5, 10 and 15°)

OK, so conclusion is..... it depend....

Most probably Allan CdA at 5° yaw is probably very similar to his CdA a 0° yaw.
Slightly higher or lower... don't know.


Side note : was also very surprised to see for "bike only measurements" some drag graph (not CdA graph, but drag in grams) lowering at yaw, some other going up at yaw... strange.

I am not sponsored by TorHans, the VR was the fastest option I tested on the frame, although I drilled my own holes in the bracket so it sits lower than it would otherwise. In fairness, I did not drill out the Xlab that I tested as it was slower in the baseline position than the VR in the baseline position so I had already decided that I was going with that option (I wanted to be able to return the items I wasn't going to use!). The VR was negative drag, so for 70.3s I race with the bottle on the frame even though I typically don't fill it. The angle on the bottle I have behind my seat was the biggest savings I found. Once Jim helped me get the angle correct, it was a very nice drop in cda. The AeroZ was the only BTA set up that I tested that was net zero, everything else I tested at the time was positive drag for BTA options.

I have changed my head/hand position significantly over the last year and am going over to the Boardman center in the UK to test out again this January. Looking forward to seeing where I can make fast faster as well. FWIW, the average CdA for the all but one of the races I did this year were under .23 with one of them being under .22.

Very minor but the stock thru axles can be swapped out for Maxle Stealths for less frontal area and lighter weight.

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Thanks a lot for your reply. I really appreciate it. I will go for a TorHans VR.

Did you test the xlab on seat tube and down tube? do you know what position which is best? I have a race on Sunday and not time to get a new solution by then.

Will be very exiting to see your results in the tunnel.

BTW, congrats on you Hawaii slot :D

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I apologize for my lack of response, but I had a lot that absolutely needed to be done (like getting my bike in actual riding condition) before traveling one month to Patagonia and the Patagonman.

I said I would share everything and be transparent so here is my full results from the wind tunnel: https://www.dropbox.com/...3y3fXe4y2THpYia?dl=0 (UPDATED WITH A WORKING LINK)

The "Allan Hovda Aerofit 21 November" is the numbers and the data and the file below contains all the pictures from the test. If anything was unclear just ask.

Btw, if anyone wonders why I tested the Castelli Gabba jacket vs Santini Beta it is the options I have for Norseman where you need warmer clothing.

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I really appreciate you sharing your info!

The link has a problem though: "Unable to retrieve file: The path is incorrect, or the public link has expired"

I am in the process of changing my transparent round gel bottle on the downtube to an aero bottle. After reading this interesting thread I got aware of the xlab aero tt. However, the Torhans VR seems more aero.

2 questions:
-how do you purchase the torhans in Europe?
-how is the holder of the torhans? (I heard some aero holders are insecure at vibrations and the xlab seems to be very stable)

I've been running the Felt version on my Da since it's inception (had a teammate that hated it and gifted it to me). I've done maybe 20-30 Time Trials with it varying road conditions from perfect to horrible) and at least 1000 miles one the road (~300 of which were on Minneapolis's crappy roads). I've always had my doubts about bottle security with the VR so I always pull it when traveling with the bike on the rack. That being said, when I loaned the VR to Kiley for his shootout and specifically tell him to pull it from the cage when he drives home he forgets....he makes it from Mooresville NC to Philly without losing the bottle, though. I've also found me some nasty potholes that have launched BTS bottles and knocked me out of my pads, but yet the VR holds firm.

I doubt i'll be driving with the VR in the holder any time soon, but my doubts about losing the bottle during a ride/race all disappeared a long time ago. It's not even a thought anymore.

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That was bad luck. It worked when I posted it. Now I have put them in a dropbox folder and they should be able to view here: https://www.dropbox.com/...3y3fXe4y2THpYia?dl=0

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Thanks for the information.
I managed to order the Torhans VR from Torhans USA, they ship it to Europe within 2 or 6 weeks for $25.

I've never tried one and I know LAI has praised the bottle holder but this Instagram post by matthansontri himself suggests that it is indeed a possibility to launch the bottle: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bq98TpdBAby/

I have had zero issues with the bottle and holder coming lose in any race I have done the last 4 years. Not sure if I did it or it came that way but there is Velcro on the holder then the bottle to keep it more secure.

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Hahaha, that's awesome.

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Thanks for posting the complete report and associated pictures.

Great to see how such a session can be done in details, with associated output.

Give us some news from Patagonia !

I did some instagram stalking and couldn't see any difference over the past couple years - care to share general observations? Your BTS set up is definitely lower and more vertical than the eyeball test prefers...

I have not changed the bottle angle since 2015 when I tested in the velodrome for the second time in 2016 and the numbers from that bottle placement were replicated. The current placement was a 2.2w savings over any other placement. However, I switched saddles in 2017 so will be retesting this in January. I had different results than others with bottle placement...I'm no expert by any means, but I trust the numbers over the "eyeball test." If I had to guess, Id say it relates to how the rider sits on the saddle. I ride a split nose saddle and sit farther forward on that than many.

Like I said, all things will be retested in January, but until then I run my set up based on the numbers I have.

Yep - I just didn't go far enough back. Thanks!

Regarding the TorHans downtube bottle. Your blog said it was neutral and here you said it was negative, or was it within the noise, or did you not want to give away your secerts? Did you have any theories as to why the 1x wasn't faster?

Hei Allan
Dette er moro. Tusen takk for at du deler dine erfaringer.
Du vil finne mange brønnpissere her på ST, men jeg vet at mange også setter stor pris på din åpenhet og at du deler av dine kunnskaper.
Jeg har nå flyttet til Norge (Fjellhamar) så vi vil nok sees snart.
Ha en fin jul der du er nå.

Thanks for sharing. Even though some people will always be grumpy. I know most of us are really happy you are sharing your journey and data.

The Aero Z BTA was neutral, the VR series bottle was a 2.4w savings after I made my own holes for the bracket.

Jim at ERO speculated that the 1x was slower because it created a bigger gap between the big chain ring and the frame that is filled by the small chain ring allowing an Eddy current. Yes, I took the FD off as well as the hangar and plugged all holes, etc and it was still slower. We were all quite surprised by the result. I have seen some frames test faster with 1x, but mine did not.

Yep,

and congrats for Patagonia result.
Don't hesitate to share your feedback from Patagonia, including pictures and the feedback on Morftec use !

thanks for the reply, I'm running a PR6 as well and found the 1x result curious.

I saw your new wind tunnel Instagram, what BTA set up are you running now? Looks like the Giant system almost.

Most likely something else changed.

this pains me...

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1x is probably slower or neutral on QR frames that employ their "shift" technology - moves airflow from the drive side to NDS around the BB area...

Probably the elbows right below the shoulders in the picture (same for LAI). They both favor more reach, elbow and hand much forward.

Personally I can't handle this position (in your picture), it really hurt. I also prefer to move the elbows (and the hands) several centimeter forward. More comfortable for me, and apparently more powerful, and more aero (increased arm section length).

Still doesn't makes sense. Removing blunt objects from the airstream should still be a win. Granted there could be esoteric interference effects, but I wouldn't believe it without a lot of ABABAB testing, to get a degree of confidence that is less than the measurement error.

Allan

Great effort and result at Norseman Xtreme.

Look forward to reading your race report!

JS

Question how tall are you and what weight?
Pretty fast with low watts

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I am 180cm and 69 kg :) Yes, the point of trying to become the most aerodynamic triathlete in the world is to go fast with low watts ;)

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What was the water temperature this year?

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too warm ;) 18 degrees. I believe it was a heat record this year with up to 28 degrees on the run.

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