10x100 lcm leaving on 1:40 (in on 1:25-1:30) for me gets me a 59min ironman swim with wetsuit at what feels like 70% effort pace

Edit: sorry that I don’t have direct answer to your question but thought this might be helpful

15x100 swim (SCY) @ 1:35 (hold 1:15) +/- 5 seconds.

---

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

You might as well do an accurate simulation and do 4 x 500 on 30 seconds rest and do them around 7:00ish. Hold consistent pace the whole set with no drop off in speed. I think people can get a false sense of their pace based on the 100s or if you do the 100s you should descend as you do the set.

This. 100s are nice, but you need stamina. If you can go sub-7 500s with descending splits you are good for that pace.

---

Hillary Trout
San Luis Obispo, CA

Your trip is short. Make the most of it.
https://www.slogoing.net/

15X100 on 1:30 holding 1:15

That's got to be pretty close cuz at my best I was able to do 20X100 SCY on 1:35 holding 1:20 and I've gone ~32 at that time.

FWIW, I can hold 1.25-27 for 20x100 LCM leaving on 1.40. My last HIM I swam 28.15 with a wetsuit

No idea about yards

Pretty close to what I was going to say. But I'd go 4 x 500 at 7 min per steady to hard, on 8 min. take off. When you can eventually do that, graduate to 2 x 1000 on 15 min take off with target of 14 min. Then you're ready.

In the race, you'll have to use some extra skill of navigating super straight on some slightly faster feet, with a wetsuit--you'll nail it provided the course is measured accurately.

Maybe I do better in open water, but when I swam 30:xx a couple of years ago I was doing 100 repeats on 1:35 and coming in around 1:22. 400's were around 5:45-5:50 on a 6:15 send off. This season I swam around 32 in my two HIM's on around 1/2 of the volume of previous years. Pool times were around 1:25 on a 1:35-1:40 send off for longer sets. This is all scy.

---

Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

I am between a 29-31 1/2 IM swimmer (trying to make some big swim gains this year however). I have done many 1,000’s, when I am swimming well my 1k repeat time are 14:15-14:45. Take around 1-2 min between them. 15-20 x 100 would be sub 1:20 on 1:40 as well. Between those 2 things I can tell if I am swimming well.

---

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

What I am taking from thos thread is that I am never swimming 30min for HIM.

---

Dimond Bikes Superfan

It still might be possible. I am not even near the sets that others are posting here with 100s around 1:15 to 1:25s. For me a 1:35 would be a pretty fast 100 and I would not neccessary be able to do 10 of those. In my main set my 100s would normally be around 1:40-1:45...

However, if the swim is in saltwater I am a few seconds faster per 100, and with a wetsuit I probably drop another 15 seconds per 100. I think there is quite an individual difference in how much "type of water" and wetsuit helps - probably based on technique and efficiency?

So based on my experience there is hope even with slower times in the pool. I've done 1/2 IM swims ranging from 29:30 to 31:xx several times and full IM's in the 1:02-1:03 range where one was even non-wetsuit.

For me 50x50’s leaving on the :45 was a good one for me or 20x100’s at 1:25-1:30, 5-7 sec rest.

I would also incorporate flip turns and sighting while in the pool. U would be surprised how bad ur form can fall apart if u can’t sight efficiently.

eh

you're not talking meters?

Do you swim masters? If you do it regularly, you get a feel for what your base pace is. When I'm actively swimming masters (3x a week), I swim in the base 1:25/100 SCY lane. I swam St. George in 30 minutes on someone's feet, in a wetsuit, and pretty straight.

I'd like to get into the base 1:15-1:20 lane but I would need to swim 4 or 5 times a week to make that happen.

Assuming all good things, you swim well in a wetsuit, get on feet for the entire swim and swim straight, I would say the minimum in a pool would be 1;25's for 100's on the 1;30/1;35 or so. If you can do 10 that would be good, do 20 and you should be golden..

Now that is slowest and best case scenario. There will be guys that can do 1;15's and not make that 30 minutes, a very wide range of abilities once you are under race conditions. But physically and speed wise, that 1;25 pace could get you there, so don't be discouraged by all the faster sets people post up, they are their guidelines or guesses, and of course more stringent and more of a slam dunk on a 30 minute swim...

100's isnt the best way to benchmark this, do 4x400 or 5x400, if you can hit 5:30- 5:35 pace- 40 sec rest after each interval, then you will be good

---

Strava:https://www.strava.com/athletes/20890878

1000scy time trial 14:00 has a shot. 13:30 you're a slam dunk. I'd say this because, even as a swimmer, if I'm in whatever "1000 shape" I'm in, the time drop for the next 1000 is nominal. It's difficult to extrapolate 500, 200, 100, 50's on intervals into a 1.2 miler because it's hard to quantify how much your repeats benefit from rest time in strength, stamina, and mechanics.

I swam 28:55 and 20x100 scy on 1:30 holding 1:20 was one of my hard sets. Max effort would be a a bit faster but not much. I am atypical and wetsuits help me a ton. But it is possible.

I can't hold most of the benchmarks being thrown around here and I swam a bunch of 30:xx splits on accurate courses, so don't give up hope yet...

---

ZONE3 - We Last Longer

Curious as to why you think 400s are the best benchmark?

---

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I've hit sub 30 twice in HIM races. Both were wetsuit swims. When I hit those I was swimming 3x/week, two with masters one on my own. I would typically do a set of 16 or 20 100's on the 1:35 or 1:40 (SCY) and come in on average around 1:25. At that time I could swim a straight 1000 SCY in the 1:40-14:20 range.

So if you want to make sure you can hit under 30', I'd try and exceed these figures, especially if the swim might be without a wetsuit.

I think 13:30 for 1k yards TT is right. Should be able to swim 30 min and not kill yourself doing it.

So thats what my 1k TT should be!!!! Challenge for 2019 accepted! Broken clavicle to 13:30 challenge.

---

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

Thanks everyone for chiming in. It gives me some numbers to aim for over the winter.

I moved up to the 1:35 group in masters and held a 1:21 pace (1:19-1:23) when we did 10x100yd about 3 weeks ago. I decided to do 2x500yd on the 8 minute this morning just to get a baseline of sorts. Went 7:15 and 7:14 and didn’t feel gassed at all (could’ve done a 3rd at that pace for sure). So I feel like I’m heading in the right direction (my PB for a HIM is 34:30). 7 more months to keep improving.

---

Matt

I can do a HIM swim in 33 mins.

Back in the summer my daughter did a 2km open water swim race in 27 mins.

She's 12.

Yeah, it made me feel pretty useless by comparison.

Are you going to join Tower 26? We will do a baseline 1kTT in early January, then do a huge build and retest in April. Last year I was 13:30 in yards in January, then went 12:53 for meters in April. You need to do this!

Thanks for starting the thread as it's been a question in my mind recently and also gives me something to aim for this winter.

I just did the 4x500 (scy) test yesterday and averaged 7:23 (probably could have gone a bit faster but would have too high an HR upon completing). Which fits about right with my 32-33 70.3 history. But for the first time, I am getting regular private lessons and joining a masters group so I hope to cut that down over the next few months.

---

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Yes using Dec just to get back in water and back to some baseline. Tower 26 starting Jan 1st.

---

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

we are doing lots of technical stuff right now that would definitely do you good...

Me either. Let's just catch them on the bike.

I have had this strategy for many years, it does not always work. When I watched Sean put 50m gap into me this year at Buffalo in the first 100m I had the hard realization something needed to change.

---

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

I want to take a chance and ask a little bit of the opposite question:

If my 1000 yard TT is around 15:20, what can I expect for a HIM swim? Like a 35?

I was using that as well for about a decade. It worked alright for local races. But the problem that I ran into with with IM brand races is that when you’ve got the 300th swim split but the 10th best bike split (both not including pros of course...), you have to pass a shitload of people. While passing is fun, it’s a PITA when people are riding two or three wide or or just not staying to the right when not passing. Yelling “on your left” takes energy and slowing down and speeding up to pass through the crowd takes more energy vs just riding goal watts.

But what really nailed me was that the last 70.3 I did I was focused so much on passing slower riders so I could get into some “open road” that I didn’t take in any lytes, water or calories until mile 24 on a hot day. This led to cramping on the last climb on the bike (lost time there) and then cramping on the run that was so bad I had so lay on the side of the road for 3-4 minutes massaging both hip flexors before I could stand up and start moving again. Obviously me not paying attention/following my plan was the culprit, but if I could come out in at least 30-31m that would put me in the 50-80 range. So lots of less people to pass meaning more mental energy to my own race nd hopefully less dumb errors.

So even though it seems counterintuitive to currently spend 1/3 of my training hours on swimming since it might only represent 1/8 or 1/9 of my race, I think at this point I need to try something different than the old way to break trough to that next level. So from October until March it’s swimming 1hr on M-F mornings before work.

---

Matt

You might take a look at http://www.swimpacecalculator.com and do the benchmark test there. Much like the run extrapolation websites that can predict marathon times, this does the same for the swim.

---

USA Triathlon Level 2 Coach
Slowtwitch Master Coach
Head Coach, TriCoach Colorado, LLC

I’ll have to look in my training log (it’s on my home computer and I’m at work now), but my last HIM swim I went 34:30 and I did a 1000yd TT 2 months prior which was just a few seconds over 15.

---

Matt

Ya, but that calculator does no good for what the OP is asking. He want to know what kind of pool times he needs to do a 30m HIM swim with a wetsuit, in the draft, in OW...

I have not seen that before. Looks kinda like the McMillan running calculator. I had wondering if someone had ever made one for swimming. Thanks for sharing

---

Matt

Yep same kinda of spot. I am normally 10-20th in my AG out of the water in WTC races. But losing minutes to the front end guys and I dont run fast enough to make up the time. Locally I lose enough time out of the water I take myself out of any contention to win automatically no matter how fast I bike. So I am like you have said committing 1/3 of my training time in 2019 to Swimming and trying to close that gap down. I have decided its worth it plus its getting harder trying to find places to gain time.

---

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

Assuming wetsuit legal, accurate course, calm conditions, I'd say high 33/ low 34m. Even if your 2nd 1000 tails off 10% you are still holding 1:40 pace. Disclaimer: It's always dangerous to extrapolate in the kind of time range you're talking about. If you've got distance freestyle age groupers ripping off 1:05's on the 1:15, you have a real good idea what they're going in the 1000 or the 1650 and even a 1 or 2 mile postal swim. They have the technique and the stamina. If you're a 1:25-1:30 100 scy pool swimmer, there's a much wider margin of error. I wouldn't extrapolate on any distance less than 1000 for the average AOS OWS.

I was typically around 28-29 and used the following as a benchmark (nothing special):

20 x 100scy on 1:30, avg 1:15, for scm i think that was around a 1:22-1:23 on 1:40

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 1.2 miles is just a hair under 2000 yards, right?

So if you can do 20 x 1:30 and simply make the interval, even if you're only getting a second's rest per 100, you're already sub 30.

That's how I've always viewed it.. take whatever interval you can hold for the equivalent...

I know when I'm in swim shape and holding 1:10/100scy in the pool I'm about a 24 HIM wetsuit swim, and when I'm a 1:20 I'm more a 27...

I guess I'm saying you don't really need to over think it: instead of doing benchmark tests, just test by swimming the entire distance as a time trial. It's 2k yards, it's not like you are risking injury. If it takes you >30 min, you have work to do..

I personally was always slower in open water. I seemed to swim about 10sec per 100 slower in OW vs pool.

2112 yards. I think the point of the OP was he/she wasn't looking to do a 1.2mi TT. If you're going 1:10 and a 24:xx half, that's a way different level than aiming for 30m. You fall into the category of swimmer that can extrapolate 100s. What's your pool 1000 when you're going 24:xx? That's a stout swim.

1.2 miles
2112 yards
1931 meters

That's great! All these years I've been doing it wrong. In HS meets we always called the 1650 SCY race the mile. Been bragging I used to do the mile when I'd been shorting it by 110 yards all these years.

Its "The Mile" not a mile :) same term used for 1500m in here

---

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Thanks! It was actually a 23 high, but with an incoming tide so I call it 24. As far as a 1000 pool TT, I don't know. Never do 1000s in the pool for time. 10 or 15 x 100 on 1:10 are a standard set. I usually come in on 1:05- 1:07 If I do 500s as a solid swim when in shape I come in about 5:35-5:40 on a 6 min interval. That's working harder than I do in a tri.

Swam on teams from age of 6 through start of college so my metric of "in shape" is different than average.

You must be a distance swimmer. I can't do that shit.. 100s with 5s rest. I get a lot of benefit from wetsuit in OWS I think, because I can do 1:12-1:15 on 1:30 all day.. good not great, but am at 26:xx for a half right now. If I did 100s on 1:20 it'd turn into a 1:18 pace death march.. which certainly is not 26:xx material. That's why I always say it's tough to extrapolate 100s. I haven't done a 1000 in a while but 6:30 is a comfy 500.. which also doesn't suggest a 26:xx. Wetsuit ftw.

Yards or Metres ? My 5k pace is 1:11 or 12 for SCM... most of my 100s are on 1:25 trying to hold 1:08.

---

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

scy

I've never been much of a practice swimmer compared to meet and OWS times. I also swim by myself, so maybe there's some laziness in there. But I really think that the wetsuit is worth 5-10s per 100y over pool times for me. It's been a while since I did anything longer than a 200 in the pool, maybe I'll ratchet one up later this week.

Agreed on several points... I'm a lazy practice swimmer too, probably owing to practicing alone most days.

As far as wetsuit benefit, do you not kick much? I nearly don't kick at all when swimming, and I pick up a massive benefit from a wetsuit, while those who do have a strong kick seem to benefit less.

Has to be something about the improved buoyancy for my legs with it on. As far as kicking, I can throw in kick when I want to, but I don't very often during practices, since swimming is often a "day off" from leg activity. Probably a combination of the two. The rest effect as well, since I'm usually going into a 1.2 ready to throw down.

/hijack

I think you need to be able to hold 1:20/100y pace on longer swims pretty easily to swim 30 min in a half. In the pool, I aim to hit some longer sets on a 1:25 base. For a half, you may target a 2200 main set such as:

2 x 400 on 5:40
2 x 300 on 4:15
2 x 200 on 2:50
4 x 100 on 1:25

Aim to come in at 1:20 per 100y or faster. If you can do that set with 5 seconds rest per 100y without killing yourself you probably have the pool fitness to swim a 30 min half. From there, you just need to transfer that pool fitness to OWS fitness.

It is good to have off season swim goals, but by the end of a 70.3, 31 minutes of relaxed mid effort swimming can be better than a 29 minute hard effort.

I would suggest simply doing a 2100 yd time trial and see if you can go under 30. As you've correctly pointed out, you would need to hold about1:25/100 yd get under 30:00. A 1:25.0 average pace would put you at 29:45 for 2100 yd.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

First you need to know how much advantage you get from a wetsuit compared to swimming in the pool. Due to poor body position, I get a huge advantage with a wetsuit.

I regularly swim 29:xx in a Half Ironman (in good conditions), but don't get close to the pool swim times mentioned earlier in the thread. Although part of that may be because I only swim in a 50 metre pool and don't know how to translate 25 or 50 yard pool times. But for reference, I usually get up to roughly 10x100m repeats on 1:45 coming in around 1:35. I also try to swim more than 10 kilometres a week for 10 consecutive weeks leading up to the Half Ironman.

....what? That seems a bit extreme.

Sets such as this are my go to indicator for swim performance. I can muscle through 100's or catch up during 400 or 500's but can't fake my way through a 100 to 500 to 100 pyramid.


That being said this thread has made me realize how poorly my pool swimming translates to open water. I guess I just need to swim in open water more?

In Summer I do one open water swim per week of around 3km. Usually with a group of over 50 triathletes.

By swimming every week I get to experience lots of different types of conditions. Swimming with large group is a good simulation for a race

UPDATE

I'm now 4 months into my swim focus. I've been hitting the pool 4-5x per week and averaged 12k yards a week over that span. Some of the workouts from this past month that I remembered to write down (all scy, oldest to most recent):

- 4x500 on the 8min (6:58, 6:59, 7:05)
- 21x100 on the 1:35 (1:24 avg)
- 1000 time trial (14:08)
- 4x400 on the 6 min (5:50,5:50, 5:50, 5:59)
- 10x100 on the 1:30 (avg 1:19)

On my way to the pool I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do for a workout so I made the spur of the moment decision to do 2100 straight to see what I could do. I came in at 30:42. My 500's were all within a few seconds of each other so I was pretty pleased that I was able to pace things evenly (this has been a problem of mine in the past). When I did my last HIM (2 years ago) I did a pool 2100 that was 4:15 slower than today, so it's nice to see the work paying off.

So theoretically I need to drop 2s per 100 from now until mid June and hope that a draft and wetsuit can cover what I'll loose with no flip turns/kicking off the wall.

---

Matt

Those are some nice improvements, and your best set is that 10x100 on 1;30 holding 1;19's. I think that one is by far the best of the lot, and shows you have a lot more room to improve on those other metrics you put up..

I think you are already at the sub 30 level, with a wetsuit and decent draft, and proper course...

We need a 4 year update please

Especially since I am targeting sub 30 at HIM distance

Thanks