Lucy Charles had the lid flapping in the wind for most of the ride so I can only imagine.

So that's what that was! I saw something flapping around, but I wasn't sure if it was the tank or not.

Sarah True had her lid taped down as well.

In theory it's a fine idea, but this version of the tank is even more unusable than that on the Gen 1 Shiv. You can't fill it on the fly and putting an H2O rack back there probably affect the aerodynamics. Id guess the IP considerations are such that they could not put a tool kit or whatever else back there. Pity.

If you look at previous few photos you can also see considerable evidence of some kind of spillage down the side. Could have been some kind of training mishap, though, and not a defect

But it does raise a question I had that may have already been answered about this thing. If you lay the bike down with a full load, does it spill? E.g. sometimes you can flat in the middle of the desert (or Queen K) with nothing to prop the bike against. So you have to lay it down.

Edit: OK, Tim Don and Lucy Charles also have evidence of spillage. And Tim Don looks like he has a bottle wedged between his saddle and the lid. And it doesn't really look like that was an *intentional* placement. It looks like it was wedged there. Am I wrong?

At first I thought the OP was just hate-mongering. But now I'm starting to agree. It looks like there might be a spillage issue. Maybe hitting bumps, etc. And it's not great that the spillage can go right onto the drivetrain. A sugary RD isn't going to be ideal.

Pretty common with the SC draft box. Just insurance. Especially if u stuff it full.

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

Wouldn't call it a defect, I'd just call it triathletes being weird as they always are. But as I said I didn't like it in the Shiv 2019 and new bikes thread as I loved the downtube fuselage location as that was full integration.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

The biggest blunder was the space between her and that rear water bottle. She needs fit/optimization help.

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

I think it will be interesting to see what changes she takes for 2019. She is you but clearly a generational talent however there is some grumbling about her coach not being at her level and a closed minded attitude to change. She runs the risk of being the triathlon equivalent of Raymond Poulidor if she doesn't make some changes.

Why test a new product at this race? Would you play with a new prototype of clubs at the Masters?

For the price of the bike you would think that Specialized could get the damn lid right.

I agree here. I’ll never understand why pros allow themselves to be beta testers when it matters most. Well, I sorta get it-sponsors....but must be maddening to them.

I believe it was Lucy Charles who said that she's had the bike for a few months, so I suspect others have as well. If there is a problem with the lid, then I bet they've known about it for a while, but it was probably too close to the race to get a production ready replacement out to the athletes.

BryanD will be all over this one 😉

That'll probably be tomorrow when the working week starts and he clocks in for his shift.

Based on all their sponsored riders either using tape to hold the lid down, not using tape and having it flapping open, missing filling the reservoir on camera, having Tim Don jam a bottle between his seat and reservoir, Sarah True have hers taped down with no rear bottle only a BTA and everyone else having theirs on a bracket that was so far behind them it would be tough to handle and negate any supposed aero benefit of having the behind seat reservoir there. I would say it was a total design flaw and PR disaster for Specialized.

https://www.tririg.com/galleries.php?id=2018_10_Ironman_Hawaii_Race_Day&num=294

I hope she had that lid secured before she "relieved" herself during the bike.

Apologies if you watched it, but Lucy attempted to put some fluids into ‘The Fin’ after Hawi special needs, couldn’t get it in and dropped the bottle whilst attempting it, the overhead footage were showing her clearly. So she had the lid open from there, and I’m guessing there was some spillage there too.

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'to give anything less than the best is to sacrifice the gift'...Pre

No, she tried to stick it in her rear bottle cage and dropped it

Nope... it was open way before that, almost from beginning of the bike.
Look at the video on Ironman Now Pro Part 1 tons of side view like the one below :

I was going to say that too. It was flapping open from almost the beginning of the bike ride.

IMO, while not a disaster overall, this was really a poor showcase for the tank from a realistically usable hydration system beyond the initial fluids and any aero benefits of it were totally negated by flapping lids, tape, and BTS solutions too far back due to the tank in the way.

Specialized is going to be digging out of this hole for a while. They really need to revisit this concept before it hits showroom floors. I'm all for nerds inheriting the earth but does Specialized not have a single person in a non-techie role that could have just said, "Hey guys, while you all are circle jerking about your wind tunnel and CFD simulations of this tank, nobody can refill the damn thing and the fucking lid won't stay on. Oh, and since nobody can refill it, they are slapping bottle cages 12" away from their bodies for more water. So rider on in real world scenarios the aerodynamics of the thing really don't play out."

As I said in the other thread. I have no issues with the bike beyond the impractical nature of the tank.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I agree. The cleverest thing done was Braden Currie's beer bong funnel-and-hose system. But that he had to go to such lengths - possibly during race week itself - doesn't reflect well on the original design. And the system is the same size, effectively, as a full behind-the-saddle carrier. At which point you have to ask, "What's the point?"

It's ironic that there was all this intense secrecy, embargoes, etc, to carefully orchestrate the public release. And the end result of that is all their pros in full public view with lids flapping, electric-taped lids, sugary spillage down the side of every tank, and a beer bong.

His solution is actually genius. If you can snap that little blue lid off on the on course water bottles and have his cut out bottle hold the on course bottle as it fills up the reservoir . Kinda like a water cooler. of course would only work with water bottles that could fit into the cutout water bottle.

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2019 T-Rex Tri Series

I'm not a fan of the staunchy UCI, but I bet someone from the UCI watching this would be laughing their ass off.

Anyone find it ironic that a bike "optimized for winds of Kona" debuts in the year the wind didn't play a factor at all?

The irony wasn't lost on me.

It's a gamble to debut a brand new bike design at Kona. You maximize your media exposure, as interest in the sport is at it's peak in the lead-up to the IMWC. You also have ~2400 of the most eligible potential customers/influencers in one location who'm you can try to impress face-to-face. The flip-side is that any weakness or shortcomings that emerge under racing conditions are exposed quite publicly. The Shiv reservoir lid that wouldn't stay shut was an embarrassment, but it's something that, presumably, can easily be redesigned before the retail launch. The difficulty for athletes who will consume more than the reservoir's capacity and also need space for some sort of liquid nutrition/electrolyte is less easily solved without compromising the bikes core aerodynamic properties.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Irony noted, but they did have a bike at the front of the women's race for most of the race, and the second-fastest women's split in history.

Lots of arguments and mitigations can be made for why that was the case, but them's the facts.

But...as also noted....the stupid hydration solution is also just the blaring facts. Four high-profile pros, ALL exhibiting issues with the hydration design, and one probably showing issues with the bento insert.

As good as this bike may be, I would not even remotely consider it right now until I see significant practical racing design improvements. Seems like the Spec design team needs to hire an old curmudgeon to keep them straight when they get ahead of themselves. As someone else noted...all the wind tunnel and CFD numbers in the world don't mean a thing when the part is damn near unusable under the duress of race conditions. It's a real issue that those pros felt the need to mount a traditional behind-the-seat bottle solution to cover their hydration needs, given the clear intent of the bike to address hydration in an integrated, streamlined manner.

Swing and a miss.

These athletes will do whatever the F Specialized "asks" them to. They don't even have to argue. None of them would ever consider using the legacy Shiv even if they think this one sucks balls.

You completely missed the point of the hydration system.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Any new bike that debuts in 2018 with a single set of handlebars will not be the worst new bike of the year.

It's probably literally written into their sponsorship contracts that they have to use whatever Specialized gives them. We've seen this a lot on the mountain bike world cup circuit a few years ago when the Epic was launched. Even on courses where everyone was justifiably on hard tails, the Specialized riders were all on full suspension rigs.

I think it's more likely that Specialized missed the point of what the market wants and is trying to jam a square peg in a round hole.

Thanks to sticking to whatever script it is you're using.

Yes, we all get that aerodynamics were the primary function but it's most important use for the majority of people who will buy the bike was a joke and it was embarrassing for Specialized. Do you think that MOP Timmy and Tammy Triathlete really give a rat's ass that it's a second or 10 faster when they just want something they can easily drink from and refill. Aerodynamics may have been priority #1 for the designers but it's not priority #1 for their customers.

Did you not see the many comments made during the FB feed about that tank? Not a single one was positive. Same goes for other social media comments not directly on the FB page and here for that matter.

I know you're stumping this product for some reason but the whole tank as a hydration system was a disaster for Spec on Saturday.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

"You completely missed the point of the hydration system."

You're going to have to explain how.

It's pretty simple to me. Hydration has to be simple and executable during race conditions. It was clearly not so for the four top pros on that bike on Saturday. Each of them had problems and/or extraneous riggings to deal with its shortcomings.

If the hydration system is not enough to cover the needs of the course, then it should have simple provision to refill, under race conditions duress. I didn't see that, and I saw these pros using other rear hydration that disrupted airflow. I saw Lucy try more than once to close the rubber flap and not get it done.

When I look at this system as it currently stands, and I put it up against my hydration requirements during longer races, it's not a good fit as currently designed.

I'm not saying scrap the whole thing. It just isn't ready for prime time. It needs refinement.

I could be wrong but I never saw a hose / tube on Charles or Gomez - maybe on all the S riders - so either the tank has issues, riders have strong hydro set-up preferences or it's purely a fairing.

There was a tank on the first Shiv? How did I miss that? Damn.

I remember watching her drop that bottle live, but I didn't see the part where she tried to refill the tank with the bottle given the course set up it doesn't look bumpy enough to force the tank to open so she tried to refill the cell with her bottle and also couldn't reach back with her left and close it.

As I previously said I felt the location of the tank is a safety issue since Athletes will attempt to refill it and I liked the downtube integration.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

It was never supposed to be refilled. It was only supposed to be a 1 time use in a race. 2 bottles, hidden in a frame, that gets you through at least 2 hours of racing. Add a BTA and a behind the saddle if you want.

You guys keep getting upset because you can't refill it. You make fun of pros who tried to refill it. And yet none of you can wrap your minds around the fact that it's never supposed to be refilled.

How much easier can I make this for you?

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I think people are conflating a couple of different things here. First there are those that are upset about the apparent 'defect' in the Shiv lid. I'd simply like to point out that it's a plastic lid we're talking about here. In all likelihood, its a simple fix and will probably be addressed long before production units are shipped. Embarrassing? Yes. Reason to shit all over the whole concept and the bike? No. Let's get a little perspective here, folks. Then there are those who will jump in and start the hand-wringing about how it's not refillable. Arguably, that's not the point of it. Whether you like that or not, that's how it is. That feature may be useful to folks that carry custom hydration mixes, and can fit enough of a super-concentrated mix in the tank. For those (like me) that get by on what's served on-course, a non-refillable tank (or any tank, for that matter) is of limited value. That said, calling it a 'defect' because it doesn't meet your specific needs is a fascinating perspective IMO. It would be like me calling the Ventum 'defective' because it has a built-in hydration system that I don't need.

great post!

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

One other point to make here. This one is pure speculation on my part, but I'll throw it out here anyway. I don't see it as a coincidence that in the Youtube video on the new Shiv release, all the Specialized folks are sitting in the wind tunnel talking about the new hydration system. One could make the argument that this 'feature' is, first and foremost, an aerodynamic device and the fact that it happens to contain a hydration bladder is a convenient way for it to not be purely a cosmetic fairing. Independent tunnel tests will surely prove it's value from an aero standpoint.

I don't plan on buying the Shiv (or any other bike that's $15,000) so I'm not worked up about his bike one way or another. That said, I think the "outrage" comes from the fact that Specialized is advertising the thing as a fuel cell--thus, people are thinking "how can I refill it on the fly? Oh what?! I'm not supposed to?!!"

I think if Specialized had said "it's an aerodynamic fin/tail/whatever that'll save you X seconds over Y distance...oh and it also doubles as storage for your hydration" the response may have been different. When it's sold as being storage for hydration, everyone is going to ask if it works well as a storage device.

Yea, I think the most effective use of it would be to fill it with helium......

... and the answer would be... yes, it works just fine as a hydration storage device (once the lid issue is sorted out). Whether it's refillable or not, and whether that fits an individual athlete's needs, is a separate issue.

Marketing it as primarily an aerodynamic device would, IMO, send up some pretty big red flags from a rules standpoint, so can you really blame them for wanting to market it as a hydration device first and foremost?

I was with you all the way up to the BTS comment. It certainly appeared that the height of the fin-tank thingy interfered with typical BTS mounting, forcing the mounts to be extended farther behind the saddle and/or angled more acutely than normal, especially on the smaller sized frames.

Did that contribute to Lucy Charles dropping her Special Needs bottle at the turn around? Only she knows for sure and, as a sponsored athlete, she's not likely to admit it if so. But it sure looked like it.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

But whether you like it or not, it *is* refillable, the trademarked name is "Fuelcell," and most of their pros tried to use it for that purpose during the product launch race. BryanD keeps trying to push the narrative that everyone should only consider it as an aero device. But neither marketing, description by the engineers on this forum, nor demonstrated use in competition are consistent with that narrative.

If that's not the point of it, they should make a version with a bladder similar to a Camelbak's bladder, with it's rock-solid quarter-turn wide-mouth for filling. Something you'd never consider messing with while in motion. Vs. a lid that snaps open and the entire contents of your bladder is open to the air.

I remember Carl from Trek saying that their draft box was completely drag neutral.
I know it was smaller than the specialized, but same idea. If the trek draft box/fin offered zero aero gains, any reason why the specialized version would offer much?

The SC draft box was designed not to mess up an already slick design. The Shiv Fintank appears to be integral to the back-half aerodynamics. Look at the relative small size of the seat tube and seat post of the Shiv without the Finevoir. There's no rear wheel shielding, and the airfoil ratio of those tubes can't be much.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

What about the prior Shiv’s water bladder system is unusable? The Shiv clearly has its faults but in my experience the integrated hydration system isn’t one of them. I’ve found it extremely easy and quick to refill at aid stations during long races and it doesn’t leak. A little bit of a PITA to clean afterward but that doesn’t mean it’s not usable during a race.

yeah because logic and common sense shows you that it's a fairing with a non-refillable bladder.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

But the bladder by definition is an independent sealed system save for the opening to fill it. It’s heavy when filled and certainly won’t bounce out of the carbon fin. The leakage must be attributed to the fill system not fully sealing. I agree it’s absurd to consider this an on the fly refill solution but nothing I saw suggested that’s what they were going for. In regards to the lid my Canyon has a cover for the in frame storage area and I always tape it down. If you hit a hard bump all stuff live this will go flying often regardless of how well engineered.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

If Specialized is adamant that the reservoir is not to be filled on the fly, shouldn't they have been all over Tim Don when he posted the photo of him filling it on his instagram page?

I hear ya. I actually don’t mind the bike and some of my negative comments are obviously hyperbole but it seems this entire bike was designed around the piece of plastic you refer to. When it is removed the bike looks ridiculous. So, I think calling it a little piece of plastic is under-stating it at least as much as others may be overstating the problem. Specialized has a problem maybe they didn’t expect—people will try to or want to use this as a refillable reservoir. The fact they they didn’t intend for it to function as such is sort of irrelevant now. They should—and hopefully will—put a little more R and D into figuring out a solution.

To be clear, the little piece of plastic I'm referring to is the lid, not the entire fuel cell. I honestly can't imagine that it would take a lot of engineering hours to figure out a more secure closure system for that lid to keep it from popping open and flapping around.

The fact that I saw several interviews with athletes talking about how they can fill it on the fly would seem to run counter to the narrative their product people are pushing. I've been part of sponsoring products in the past, albeit tangentially, and product people basically give you a script of the things you are and are not supposed to say about new products. If several athletes are saying you can refill it on the fly, then the product people more than likely gave them that leeway. If they knew it couldn't or shouldn't be refilled, you can be almost certain they told the athletes not to say you could.

Nobody's "shitting" on the bike. It's not ready for consumer market, that's all.

Fix the lid. One was flapping, and two others taped theirs down. Also, if one of them seemed to have to secure the bento with something as well. That indicates a poor design of that particular part. Not defective...I never used that word...just poor design. Not paying $14k for a bike with parts I have to tape down so that they stay together.

Also, the down tube bento seems to preclude down tube hydration (there are no bottle cage bosses there), so now they are sticking it way out the back end in the air flow because it has to clear the existing hydration box. Don't you see that as a problem? It's a triathlon bike, and would be expected to perform in long course/IM racing. Your only other option is a seat tube bottle, which is generally an aerodynamic no-no as well.

For those with significant hydration requirements, it seems to force into some very limited decisions that incur elevated aerodynamic penalties over other designs.

From a practical racing standpoint, this design has some limitations vs. some other designs, to my view.

On the other hand, it definitely has some thoughtful, forward thinking designs, such as the Di2/Etap box provisions in the nose cap to facilitate clean front end set up .

With regard to using a BTS setup with the bike, what I saw in the photos was more than one athlete riding the wrong size (too large) frame. Charles couldn't even get her saddle low enough to get a decent fit on the bike, and at least one other person (don't care enough to go look through the photos again to ID who it was) also seemed to have their seatpost slammed as low as it would go. II would think that, if riding a properly sized frame with enough seat post, there would be no problem getting any sort of BTS setup back there that didn't interfere with the fuelcell.

I think you meant Charles? Ref was fine....and on a Felt.

Oof... my bad.

No problem. I think most everyone knew what you meant. I thought you'd like to edit that.... :-)

You can get an after market device here to fix the issue here...

https://www.amazon.com/Travel-Urinal-Drainage-Container-Trucker/dp/B0195W6JX0

So $15k for a 10s advantage that hold two bottles & isn’t intended to be refilled?

Suckers!

you make a good observation about the seat height...

Does this mega shark fin prevent the seat post from being lowered to certain height? Sure no one "should" have to slam their seat, but those bottle cages hanging off the bank look pretty close to hitting.

Meh who cares about a hydration cover. There's a 100 ways to fix that easily. We should ask if they fixed the BB cup which wore out requiring a new frame, or the seatpost lugs that pulled out requiring a new frame. Both happened to me. It's a widespread problem judging by how many people complained about those defects just on this forum.

Really though? Its spesh, they will market the hell out of it no matter how big the mistake.

this post made me laugh out loud. Well played. I agree. The tank is terrible. I rode a Shiv tri for 2 years and the fact that the bladder was super easy to refill on the fly made that bike for me. This sucks.