What's his kit look like....if he doesnt have his big face plastered all over his kit...then i'll be angry.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
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Happy for him that he feels like he should be there...here's hoping he gets a flat.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

So what? He doped in a sport where the unwritten rule was that everyone dopes. Have any evidence he is doping now that he is retired and doing triathlon as a hobby?

Vino 4-Ever!!!

He's racing as an amateur right?

It's not like he started swimming front pro pack and running sub 3s on the end with no triathlon background whatsoever

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...=vinokourov#p6706638

Why? He'll be just another doped up age grouper... dime a dozen in Kona.

If A.Valverde is “allowed” to race and win the UCI pro road worlds in Innsbruck, then what is the problem with Vino racing at Kona???

Whataboutism much? Who did you see justifying one with the other?

completely agree. There are a few reasons who some of us are sat here commenting and not actually out there racing and doping is some of it.

Personally I think that Lance should be allowed to race. If Vino is racing then there is absolutely no strength in the lifetime ban for Armstrong.

Also interesting is that he has been tested in and out of competition

And those tests are impossible to beat, so clearly he must be clean.
/end pink.

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float , hammer , and jog

Get over it

Pffft, there is a huge double standard in the treatment in doping in cycling. For example:

Bjarne Riis is still the official winner of the '96 Tour
Jan Ullrich is still the official winner of the '97 Tour
Marco Pantani is still the official winner of the '98 Tour
Erik Zabel still has all of his wins.
No one has said who actually "won" the Tours Lance "won"
Contador still has most of his results
Valverde was directly involved with Puerto and is the CURRENT WORLD CHAMPION
etc.

Going back a little further, no one seems to ever bring up that the great Merckx was popped not once but twice in the hardly-ever-tested, freewheeling 70s.
Hinault has a stack of skeletons twenty deep in his closet and he's up there every day on the podium.
Indurain is suspicious as hell (https://www.podiumcafe.com/...think-maybe-its-time) but no one has made any effort to even investigate him.
Most major teams are run by ex-dopers or people associated with ex dopers.
etc.

Lance? Stripped of (almost) all results. Landis? Stripped of all results. Say what you like about Lance, but he's right about this: it's a bunch of bullshit.

All of this is indefensible, corrupt and ridiculous. Vino racing Tri is just one more example.

Completely agree, it means little.

For me the fact that they are testing OOC is the surprising part

This ^^^^^^^

Also dont even mention LeMond.

And This ^^^

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All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

Team Zoot, Team Zoot Mid-Atlantic

What's wrong with LeMond? He was the cleanest cyclist ever. He said so. Highest VO2max of any living creature on Earth. He said so. I think his diet was organic veggies and H2O. I'm pretty sure he was the most gifted natural born cyclist of all time. After all, he said so.

You can't go back and take away titles. They were won. What are you going to do, scrub over 50% of the TdF record book? Seriously, it was the times, no one has to like it, but the races were contested and there was a podium. Because Lance and Landis were big meanies and liars only they have to be stripped? They don't dare touch the Euros.

Ragarding Vino.. ehh.. who cares? If he's clean according to protocol then he should get to race like every other contestant that is clean according to protocol. At some point you have to forgive the past and give another chance. You can't take away someone's life for errors they made trying to keep their job in a ruthless environment. It's riding a bicycle for God's sake. Plus, come on, is there anyone else who can make this event all about themselves with the same panache and foreign language innocence as Vino, and not come across as a smug, arrogant, English-speaking, self-promotion machine?

I simply dont understand, and have never understood the faux outrage about cycling

I watched every lance tour and every tour since maybe 82-84 onwards

These guys - going back a century - have always been monsters fueled by more than just bread and water

Lance was an absolute bastard towards those that threatened him by all accounts but the sanctimonious actions of the UCI, commentators and others in eliminating him and then white washing the other results is just bullshit

I think I saw a star that there is a two decade run of tdf winners who at one time or another

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/...t_the_Tour_de_France

It is horseshit that Lance was singled out during that period

They just happened to be far more disciplined about it

Now, was have people pushing the boundaries to the same extent with with TUE's and jiffy bags and big lawyers

Remaining fit and healthy for the entire season in one of the most demanding sports on earth requires some flexibility on the moral compass and that does not seem to have changed much in the sky era

And you even forget Froome.

Jalabert is also doing tri's for several years now.

For all the haters, hopefully they feel the same way about football, soccer, baseball, hockey, golf, etc etc etc.

No, those aren't my sports. I don't have to go around and clean all my neighbor's houses before I can start cleaning my own. Also it's OK for me to hold my house to a higher standard.

Excellent point. And athletics. And tennis. And rugby. And marathon. The runners in Eldoret are hardly subject to the same level of doping control as those in France. More double standards.

Cycling gets all the stick for (half-assedly) trying to do something about doping. Meanwhile football players routinely pack on 30 lbs of pure muscle upon making it to the NFL and no one even notices.

Yep. Alex Rodriguez is on TV. Hell so is Ray Lewis and he killed a guy. The lifetime ban for Lance is ridiculous.

So we have to pick the lowest sport, ethically speaking, and not hold our sport to any higher of a standard or else we're hypocrites?

I’ll never understand this way of thinking. This is like killing someone and then stating that you shouldn’t be imprisoned because OJ wasn’t.

When only one guy in our sport gets a lifetime ban, despite evidence of many others in our sport breaking the same rules, yes that's hypocritical.

It is silly. They never should have opened this Pandora's box. Look at a list of confirmed dopers among the top ten in Tours from about 1995-2010 and it's an absolute bloodbath. The "un-confirmed" dopers from that era were likely just never caught.

Of course, this goes back far, far further than that, back to the earliest amphetamines and strychnine days of pro racing.

Extending your point, what if the IOC went back and started reassessing Olympic results with East Germany, Flo Jo, China and the like? Hoo boy. Maybe it's best to just assume everyone dopes and let sleeping dogs lie.

That's definitely part of it as well. Crucify l'Americains while Italian and Spanish Directeurs Sportif laugh into their sleeves. You could argue that the "reasoned decision" forced the UCI's hand, but the fact that Lance was from Texas (and a complete asshole) didn't help matters.

That has nothing to do with any other sport. That's an entirely different argument.

I've thought about that. Seriously. But decided I didn't like it. Because then you can't contain it. Once you let top pros dope with no consequences, then the the lower-level pros will dope to have any chance at being a top pro. And top amateurs. And juniors.

Generally I think I prefer a world that that makes a sincere, if flawed, attempt to follow something like the WADA code to one that's a free-for-all.

You're right, there is some silliness. But the alternatives are also silly.

Just merely pointing out that your sport doesn't hold itself to a higher standard than those other sports. And if you want me to tie it all together for you, Vande Velde is on TV too. ;)

Edit: to clarify though, I'd rather all these guys get lifetime bans, not just Lance. I'm just saying it's ridiculous that he's the only one that's singled out.

For all the haters, hopefully they feel the same way about football, soccer, baseball, hockey, golf, etc etc etc.



So if someone is outspoken about drugs in sport, they are now called haters?

How did the anger change from those who cheat to those who want to follow the rules?

You say this but it was an American hypocrite (Travis Tygard) who had this odd obsession with nailing Lance when he had worked hard to reduce bans for Gatlin etc. I doubt the Europeans minded him doing this but they didnt have any influence over what he did.

Wanting to change the sport for the better is fine. I don't think it makes sense to ruin the lives of a certain few that came up though the sport, through the culture that was present in those years, etc etc. I don't think it is fair to worship Merckx, Hinault, and so many others, and punish others. ******


***** Yes I get that Lance acted like a douche bag towards a lot of people, and for -that- he probably deserves some hate.

Sure cycling holds itself to a higher standard than some other sports. Travis Tygart, like his methods or not, is a sincerely anti-doping crusader. He, at some point, made the decision that if he couldn't get Lance, arguably the highest-profile blatant dopers of those under the umbrella of USADA, that USADA might as well pack up and go home. So he spent a lot of resources and got him.

He offered Lance the same deal that Vande Velde got. Lance turned down that deal. That was his decision.

I'll point out here, nowhere in this thread have I stated that Vino et al, should be turned away. I'm just surprised at all the vitriol directed at those who try to make the sport cleaner.

no vitriol here - see my edit. just think if they're going to let everyone else off so easy, Lance is getting hosed.

Likewise. Again, great to want a clean sport, but not take everything out on a select few.

I totally agree with you, which is why I mentioned the "reasoned decision". Tygard's actions forced the UCI's hand while European doping officials put their hands behind their back, whistled softly and slowly side-stepped out of frame.

The outrage should squarely be that he is in NOT that Lance should also be in. There’s a big difference.

If Lance went away like all the others in 2009 he would have his titles and not be banned. If after 2009 he went away quietly without the attacks he would not be banned and have all his titles. He shot himself in the foot.

I gave a little clarity to your post and the possible source of the hypocrisy.

That is a lie by Tygart. Lance was never offered the same deal as Vaughter's boys. They were initially promised no ban at all. It was only at the last moment Tygart had to change the deal to six months timed for the off-season. Tygart never offered any terms like he did with Slipstream's riders. It was surrender (while being sued), come out with your hands up, and hope we treat you fairly. He never even offered to abide by WADA's rules on the statute of limitations. The telling point on that is when Bruyneel took his case to arbitration, USADA did not introduce any evidence outside of the statute of limitations because it would be thrown out. The rules are a farce. Don't fight the charge and we'll ignore the SOL; fight it and we'll abide by it. Tygart has always believed the ends justify the means. If those policing sport don't follow the rules then how can athletes be blamed for also treating the rules with contempt?

Yep. Alex Rodriguez is on TV. Hell so is Ray Lewis and he killed a guy. The lifetime ban for Lance is ridiculous.


Lance deserves what he got for the way he orchestrated the drug use on his team, bullied other riders and tried to destroy the careers of journalists and anyone else who dared to speak out. I have zero sympathy for his punishment and if it's more harsh than others, then increase their sentence but his is well deserved.

When it come to this topic, you've got a better chance changing minds on white privilege in the LR.

Lance is now allowed back in non cycling events, but his lifetime ban covers national/world championship events in any sport.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Why do you call it "faux" outrage? I am actually outraged. I hate doping. I hate cheaters. I hate double standards. This isn't "faux", it is actually how I feel.

I don't care that all sports do it, I don't care that cycling is really hard, I don't care that some people get banned and others don't. I don't care that it is close to impossible to eradicate doping. Doping is wrong, and is a big deal (for context - wrong like cheating on one's taxes, not as bad as, say, killing a guy).

I don't have any workable solutions to solve the doping problem but that does not mean doping is not cheating and isn't wrong enough to care about.

Is Vino's special needs bag filled with fresh blood and T-patches?

Not even championship level Frisbee golf?

:)

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

I do think there it is interesting how some athletes that were caught doping are vilified more than others. Some become persona non grata within cycling or sport that major teams will not touch , others are pretty much forgiven such Valverde, and some it almost makes their legend greater e.g. Pantani by showing their human side.

Froome & team Sky gets urine thrown, spat at and young female team staff set on, while Movistar and Valverde don't seem to suffer the same fate yet arguably have more to answer about their pasts.
I can understand that Lance is forgiven less because of how aggressively he acted to others, however from what I have read Vinrenque didnt behave much differently yet still seems to he a hero to many that is welcome at most races.

Cycling obviously has a long history of doping, but of course all sports involve cheaters at some level and many have no appetite to tackle doping and risk stirring a hornets nest that could kill sponsorship cash cows.

It is worrying how much this is moving into amateur sports. Course cutters, anti-aging hormone replacement or put and out doping all seem to crop up. I have heard the European Gran Fondo scene has some big problems with this and there have been some recent cases in the UK TT scene.

I guess human nature will always create cheats - we have a company step challenge to encourage people to get active, but you end up with people putting their pedometers on their desk fans and all sorts of other cheats to get their steps up to win a cheap water bottle and t shirt.

I guess all we can do is continue to try and weed out cheats and punish them accordingly. We do though perhaps need to be more consistent with how we treat them though this quite difficult given the spectrums of cheating that occur and that some times it is not do black and white.

I sure hope I'm the one he pays off to get a win. It's a gamble, but that's my strategy.

boing wrote:

I guess human nature will always create cheats -

Yes, but I see a new generation rising in the US.

In my grandparent's days, there were cheats also, but back then the "self made man" and people who achieved through actual hard work was more respected.

I feel we're seeing generations now of "at any cost". And generations raising kids to be "winners" instead of raising kids to be "hard working men and women with a backbone".

The Talladega Nights movie scene with the sons talking smack and being told they can because "they're winners" is kind of what I'm getting at. You have kids growing up like that in all walks of life. Not at that level of crazy, but crazy enough. Then those kids become adults. Cheating adults with no backbone.

This:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfLtst6mC0Q

are you going to look the other way coming down Ali'i Drive as he attacks to the finish?

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Kinele's answer on the ST front page in his interview I think carries some weight. It's just hidden a bit, but I am sure its how many feel.

I do think there it is interesting how some athletes that were caught doping are vilified more than others. Some become persona non grata within cycling or sport that major teams will not touch , others are pretty much forgiven such Valverde, and some it almost makes their legend greater e.g. Pantani by showing their human side.


It is interesting and most would assume Lance got preferred treatment because of his recovery and his Foundation but I think that speaks more for Lances personality than anything else. If he was quiet and humble, the anger towards him would be a fraction of what it is now. His constant legal and personal attacks against anyone who spoke out against him and what appeared to be his using the good of his Foundation to mask his true personality disturb a lot of people. It was the arrogance and bully that people don't like. There are lots of other high profile athletes that shun the spotlight and at least publicly appear humble that have done similar things in terms of drugs but I don't think it's only about drugs.

Lance represented all that was bad about not only sports but people. So much so that even his incredible ability, recovery and charitable work couldn't provide a shield. It's quite remarkable but those same reasons are why he rose so high in the first place so its a double edged sword. What made him great destroyed him.



I think it's similar everywhere. As mentioned, A-Rod has been provided a great job after his drug use while others like Barry Bonds are kept at a distance. Ben Johnson in Canada was treated like a pariah. Pete Rose was shunned because of gambling which in terms of performance on the field is a non-issue. It seems that for one reason or other, the media portrays some as sympathetic and others not and there are likely a lot of reasons for that.

We'll work that out in the moment, but I was planning an emergency potty break.

Funny, but knowing what we know now about Uran, I wonder if Vino paid him off with bananas.

I don't want to speak for the person you are questioning, but I've always considered it to be a bit "faux" outrage. And the reason is that a lot of this "outrage" comes from a crowd that worshiped Lance's ball while he was winning 7 TdF. The boasting among triathlon community, "well you know he got his start in triathlon, blah blah." Yippee, and then everyone acts like he personally let them down. Lance was a monster dick long before he was finally nailed for doping. There were so many questions around performance you'd have to be willingly putting your head up your ass to not think there was a real good chance he was doping. The number of people in the local triathlon club who were all, "he never tested positive" and now trash Lance is nauseating. If you liked him you liked him, who cares that he got caught - he didn't let you down.. if you had that much stock in your feelings about Lance's performance than you need to re-evaluate things.

Disclaimer: I liked him, rooted for him, enjoyed his comeback while figuring he wasn't clean all along. Not shocked or dismayed when he was finally nailed, and still would root for him. I don't know if it's the foundation - lot of people say it was fake persona and all for $ - yeah? Oh well.. he also did a lot of good whether it benefited him or not. Dual personality? Who knows. I can't get all worked up about Lance and would gladly shake his hand if I got the chance to meet him.

Exactly what I was going to say. Every sport, even curling, has PED users and at every level. Pros to amateurs.

Because someone used PED’s, or more like because someone got caught using PED’s, should not disqualify them from ever competing in a sport again.

The best would still be the best on an equal playing field. So, if everyone was clean the same people would be on top.

I would actually love to see a division in all sports called ‘the all drug league.’ With unlimited use of PED’s. And also the ‘all drug Olympics.’

Oh ffs. The tdf has been around for 115 years and since day one people have used every edge to get ahead

Bradley and chris get TUE's and it's fine. Use a steroid for a saddle sore and it's fine. Use your inhaler and it's fine. Use either without and it's doping. The very same MD who approve the need for it is paid by the same people who pay the cyclists who get paid by the sponsors........

The racing has been every bit as exciting in every single era and at no point do we look back and say that the last 30 years of racing has been rubbish or they should all be scrubbed from the record books

Lance cheated no one. Not his sponsors. Not the public. The only people who thought no one was doping were those naive enough to think that in fields loaded with people who'd be caught or suspected of doping he was somehow clean

Did it reduce anyone's enjoyment of the racing. Watching lance / Jan or lance / pantani?

If you are really outraged you need to stop watching it.

I think Euro-centrism is certainly part of it, but it's not quite that simple when you've got plenty of counter examples like Vaughters, Danielson, Hincapie, Leipheimer etc, etc that have skated by and are still involved in the sport in varying degrees. Again, I think Tygart forced the UCI's hand where European anti-doping agencies were perfectly willing to keep their mouths shut.

That's just called the plain old "Olympics". The all drug part is implied and implicit.

He is my AG so yes it pisses me off

And don’t forget Jalabert

Difference with these guys is that I know they doped

I can only suspect others so just have to get on with it and hope that they all get a flat

I'll always be gutted that my wife went into labour with our first daughter the night of the Olympic Road Race. She hung on like a good'un so we could watch the end of the race before driving the 40 minutes to hospital.......just to watch that c@nt win.

A bitter / sweet day ;)

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I'd be down with that.

4:18:06 bike split

Would it be ok if you had a family member in it?

he did aerotest :-)

I'm doubtful that any of the AG dopers at Kona do anything like Vino was known to do (e.g. blood transfusions).

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vinokourov-denies-he-bought-2010-liege-bastogne-liege-win/

So Vino is your concern? What is about 90% of AG cheaters (drafters) which we observed today? Is it any better than what Vino/Lance committed? But Vino served DQ for 4 years while only about 10% of AG cheaters are sent to penalty box. For 5 minutes (feel free to repeat)

What he is not is an anti child sexual abuse crusader as evidenced by his time with USA swimming. Maybe he should have been more interested in that than catching drug cheats to make a name for himself.

What about whataboutism?

I'm trying to have breakfast here, I don't need to throw up in my mouth.

(I didn't know about that, read the article, ugh.)

what are we talking about here?

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“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Lance cheated no one. Not his sponsors. Not the public.


Lance cheated SCA Promotions since they paid him for winning but he cheated to win.


He cheated the public because he convinced many that his recovery from cancer and TDF wins was due to hard work and his own abilities.

His wins were due to hard work and his own abilities. All those pros worked their asses off and were supremely talented. That the UCI bamboozled the rubes by pretending that doping is not baked into the sport, forcing all the riders to lie, does not detract that that.

How stupid were SCA to enter a sport rife with corruption and to believe they had somehow found the golden child that could win clean

My point stands. No one got cheated but those too naive or those so willing to overlook the obvious that they pretended to be virgin till it all came out.........

SCA got exactly what they paid for. A winner in a doping sport during the greatest doping era and for them to think it was clean is just beyond hysterical

He cheated the public because he convinced many that his recovery from cancer and TDF wins was due to hard work and his own abilities.


His wins were due to hard work and his own abilities.


And drugs, lots and lots of drugs.

Your capability for mental gymnastics never ceases to impress.

https://medium.com/...coaches-9ffb9277a5f3

This needs it’s own thread

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“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

As has almost every win for the last 125 years

The only difference now is we issue TUE's

So because everyone cheats and has cheated for a long time, I am not allowed to believe cheating is wrong. Really great logic.

Do you apply this to all laws? Do we decide what is “right” based on what one can get away with? Why have rules at all - cut the course, use a motor, who cares? After all everyone always cheats.

Yeah, the old "Everyone does it" argument.

I know one young cyclist who went to Belgium (from the US), was quickly told he'd have to get on the program if he wanted to be a pro cyclist, decided he'd rather not, and came home. There must have been others. (Of course the "winners" were all cheating, so that makes it OK.)

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

And...Jaja was 5th in M50-54 yesterday, after Jeff Fieldhack's DQ, and in that, JaJa knocked Bob McRae from the podium (and his dream)...tell me how that seems to not totally suck after JaJa's history with UCI racing, for Bob to miss out by only 13 seconds. Knowing the guy in front of you having that sort of background is just--crappy.

.


He cheated the public because he convinced many that his recovery from cancer and TDF wins was due to hard work and his own abilities.[/quote]
If I had cancer and whatever he was having killed my cancer, I'd use it and be happy too

As has almost every win for the last 125 years.


So you think Lance should be reinstated and allowed to compete? What about all the other athletes serving suspensions right now? Should they be pardoned since it's been going on for years?


Why bother testing at all?

Just get a TUE. I think WADA is pretty lenient on meds for life-threatening illness.

This post so needs a Like button.

Or maybe SCA was smart and just playing the game? Feigning self-righteous anger and filing lawsuits is all part of the schtick, right? Or are only the dopers allowed to play that game?

Same. My buddy was a 3:40 1500m runner in the “EPO” era of the 90s. He learned pretty quickly that he wasn’t getting into a lot of meets in Europe unless he improved drastically - -and the way many were doing that was drugs. He left the sport.

Another female runner in my club missed the oly 1500m final by one spot. At least one finalist (I believe more) subsequently tested positive - Effectively cheating the other woman out of the spot in the final, and possible additional sponsorship dollars and national card funding.

For every doped athlete there are clean athletes getting bumped. They are definitely getting cheated.

Also let’s not forget the “high responders” theory: some people arguably respond to drugs better than others. So this isn’t really a level playing field if everyone takes drugs - the high responders are rewarded more.

The idea is that take the top twenty drug users and take them off drugs, the finish order might change when they are all clean. So maybe Lance doesn’t win seven tours if the peleton stops doping.

There were many threads on here going to probably around 2005 where some sceptics started looking at the circumstantial evidence/gossip and asking questions and for many years were shouted down. Then eventually we started having things like "I don't believe it until Big George admits it too". Now everbody knew what he was doing.

I can't speak for that guy you quoted, but I do think Lance should be reinstated and allowed to compete (if it has been 4 years, or whatever the other dopers get). The others serving current suspensions should not be pardoned until their 4 years (or whatever the term is) is finished.

I think Lance is getting fucked compared to the others.

That all being said, I would prefer they ALL get lifetime bans. You cheat, you're done.

So maybe Lance doesn’t win seven tours if the peleton stops doping.

He did not win seven tours because he was doping. He won seven times because he was doping AND he controlled every other aspect of the competition to his advantage. He had the best team, he worked the aero angle better, he was definitely OCD about a lot of the details that mostly people don't get. And he had whatever it is that champions have that allow them to take the pressure and the attention and feed on it to win instead of folding and failing.
I believe he would have won just as many races if you take away the drugs as he did with them. If you believe his story, he was already a near-top 30 finisher at the Tour as a 21-year old still carrying swim muscle (or so it looks) and baby fat. But that was about as fast as you finished in the 90s without EPO.
Don't get me wrong, I have no sympathy for the guy, beyond the fact that he was made a scapegoat for the entire unchecked EPO phase of cycling. He got what he deserved. But the others (Indurain, Riis to a lesser degree, Pantani, post-lance Contador) that preceded him should also have their stuff erased along with most of the podium finishers and probably everyone in the top 20. There is the issue. You have to erase nearly two decades of results from cycling. Instead, the Tour and UCI in general agreed to sacrifice Lance and move on. It's hypocrisy of the worst kind, especially when you learn that most of the venerated cyclists were using something during their career. Bernart Thevenet admitted to using drugs in his two Tour wins and the French still love him.

True.

He won 7 tours because he was doping better than everyone else.

Try reading Tyler Hamilton's book "The Secret Race". A couple of few points:

1. If everyone is doping it does NOT mean it is a level playing field. Some are helped more than others. In particular, if you have a high natural hemocrit level your advantage is reduced or erased as everyone is doping the level up to the max 50% allowed. If your edge was that you had a legit natural 48 or 49%, oh well...

2. USPS had training camps with Dr. Ferarri (probably the best doping Doc in the peloton, who was not allowed to work with other teams at the time). There were multiple levels of training, some with all of USPS, some with Lance and his top climbing helpers, and some with just Lance. So not equal treatment even on USPS alone. (I really wonder what went on in the Lance only camps.)

3. Lance a couple of clear violations of the doping code that simply "went away". That, along with his large "contributions" were advantages not shared by other cyclists.

Edit: I kept having to correct myself on the above statement as I kept starting to type "Team Sky" vice "USPS" . I wonder why?

Yes to follow on what you (and I) are saying - Lance was undoubtably an amazing rider - perhaps the best ever.

However, it is not ironclad that if you took him, AND everyone else off the dope, that he would still win seven.

He might, but maybe Jan doesn’t respond to dope as well as lance, but has a higher non-doped ceiling than a non-doped Lance. In that case the gap narrows.

We will never know, but the fact that not everyone responds to doping in the same way, means that if everyone dopes we don’t necessarily have the same level playing field as if no one dopes.

No! LeMond was super clean those were just Vitamin B shots they gave him! Yeah that's what we will go with.

ROFL. So the top 10 super elite were all involved in doping and SCA was naive enough to think there was a possibility of someone clean being able to beat them? They absolutely knew what was going on.

I always found Michael Rasmussen's case interesting. Didn't (technically) test positive...but missed protocol. Served two years...then was a pariah in cycling. Still sorta persona non grata.

He was doping (and admitted it), but was treated much differently than others.

He won 7 tours because he was doping better than everyone else.


x 2

Funny how all the Lance apologists have come back in full force after being strangely quiet for a few years but at least the repeated cries of "but he didn't test positive" or "they're just jealous" have disappeared...for now.

2019 45-49 age group winner with an 8:48

and 13th fastest bike split of the day including pro triathletes.

Vino smashed the IMH age group 45-49 record by over 7 minutes.

His bike speed was amazing, as he probably was quickly ripping through the amateurs and then catching the women pros. Anyone know if there was anyone else close to his speed, assisting him in a legal train? Or was he solo, which would make his ride even more amazing.

Just absurd, don't understand why he is allowed to race.

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

Just a thought..Does anyone know if Vino has anything to do with the organising committee of the new Ironman Astana that was announced during Kona race week. It will be in addition to the existing 70.3.

https://eu.ironman.com/...t.aspx#axzz62HsxjwOb

Because, right or wrong, not every offense is a lifetime ban from all sport.

Id actually love to see an interview with him, just like a normal AG. What are you training? What's the rest of life like? What's your bike setup? Gotta imagine the answers are different then when he was a tour pro

I noticed his two twin sons racing at the 2019 world cycling road champs a couple weeks ago. They are 18 or 19 so, so he's got plenty of in house training partners.

I think it would be interesting if ST did an interview of his training schedule and race prep, along with bike setup and position. His aero TT position was not that great during pro tour years, and it wouldn't surprise me if it's a lot better today. There is a massive emphasis on aerodynamics that is now seen with all the top pro tour GC riders / TTers that was not the norm during his pro tour days.

Ha!! I forgot about that one.

Tygart is not a sincerely anti-doping crusader. His ego is larger than Big Tex's. He wasn't trying to make the sport cleaner, he was making a name for himself.

He came past me near the end of the bike around the airport I believe. Felt like I was standing still in comparison (4:44:xx). He had two guys with him, both drafting heavily. No idea if they were sharing the work.

Exactly!

Everything he had from cycling was erased and a life time ban from the sport(s); what else do you want from him?!?! You prolly gonna be celebrating when passes aren ya?!

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Speed kills unless you have speed skills!!!

You're trying too hard there. In any case, regardless of ego, justice was done. Lance was doper. He got busted. I have a pretty simple take on it. Doping is bad. Antidopers are mostly good. I'm not a big fan of all the rationalizers.

Just for clarification, were the 2 guys behind Vino?

Because he's served his suspension and hasn't tested positive since. Take it up with WADA

Bjarne never intimidated witnesses
Ullrich never committed perjury
Pantani never bribed the UCI
Zabel never had prior notification of tests
Contador never ran smear campaigns against detractors
Valverde never used business connections to destroy people's livelihoods
Hinault never encouraged the entire peloton to isolate riders for giving evidence against a doctor
Indurain never destroyed his teammates doping products out of spite because they were "riding too well"

Get the point?

Don't forget Mirror Man will be back in a few............

At the time, but it was a pretty quick pass.

Weak. Doping is the crime that caused Lance to lose his results. All of the others are either convicted of very similar crimes or are extremely suspicious of having committed similar crimes and yet have been allowed to keep their results. This is a very obvious double standard. Get the point?

WOOOOWWWW!!!!! VINOOOOO!!!!!

he can not win pro cyclist anymore, he can not win pro triathletes, but he is sooooo good that he can win in the fathers/mothers division!!! wooow!!!!!

he won a gold medal... but know, instead of being proud of their sports merits... he choose to be a bully in the amateur sport!!!!

It is so funny to se how he (and other former pros) choose to go to Kona playing as pros, with a team and resources better than real pros.. and then, instead of challenge him self competing in pro category... choosing to compete with amateur...

... only sad, because people like Vino steal the dream for many real amateur triathletes to go to Kona.

Vino passed me on the run on the last hill just before turning down Palani. Didn’t know it was him until one of my support crew told me at the top of Palani that is was Vino that had just passed. I knew he was going to beat me since he started 10 minutes back but I didn’t want him to finish ahead of me. So I used him as motivation the last mile and re-passed him just before the turn on Ali’i.

While chasing him down Palani and Kuakini, I was surprised how many people were cheering for him by name. This wasn’t random people cheering for racers in general. This was purposely cheering for this individual as if they knew him or were fans of his. Anyways.... my point is that it was very telling for me.

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blog

Get over it people!! The Ironman rules say he is fully allowed to race, so why not just let him race and give him some respect for his impressive achievements in Ironman.

Just because he is an ex pro cyclist is no reason why he shouldn’t then compete as an amateur triathlete and beat some age groupers - are you people trying to say that anybody who has been a pro sportsman should then be banned from competing as an amateur in other sports?? Life is long, most pro-athletes retire in their early ‘30’s, are you saying they should then be banned from any competition in all other sports for the rest of their days???

Big difference between winning a bike race and winning an Ironman,he had to learn to swim and run - not easy to do in your 30’s/40’s - so kudos to him for achieving it.

It's not that he's a former pro. ...It's that he's a known doper that has tested positive in his professional career and served suspensions.

Having said that, I don't get all the hate for former dopers. They've served their time and the governing body allows them to race. If you want to get angry, go after the governing body, or go yell at the masses of people drafting (i.e. cheating) right in front of you.

Agree with you.

But please go with the greatest vigour after those age groupers and pro’s that are actually doping today - there are lots of them, we all know that - they are the really the sad cockroaches in this sport, rather than hounding those like Vino who doped in the very distant past, in another life, in another time and in another sport.

Look at his run and swim from a few years ago. Lots of learning there :-)

How is it weak? When handing down the lifetime ban both USADA and WADA said that the doping violations were more or less the same as others, it was the mafiaesque behaviour that shoved Lance over the line to a lifetime ban.

Tell you what, I'll accept Lance was doing the same as everyone else when you can prove everyone else was engaged in the same "extra-curricular" behaviour.

Why do you believe, given his results, that his doping is in the 'very distant past'?

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

Given his past he would be a bit naive to think he could still get away with it in triathlon. But OK, maybe he is doping......but so are many, many other age groupers. Let’s chase all the dopers out of this sport and sport generally, rather than just focusing on one or two easy targets.

Apparently he was boo’ed last night at the awards ceremony.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

IMO booing anybody on the roadside or worse at an awards ceremony is really inappropriate and rude.

Laurent Jalabert rocked a 2nd place in the 50-54 with a 9:25. He was apparently an EPO user during his pro tour ONCE years and acknowledged his usage sort of several years ago.

The reality is that Vino and Jalabert were exceptional athletes in a very competitive endurance sport. It is no surprise they are super competitive now.
They are eligible to participate and probably greatly increase the following of the sport of triathlon in their countries.

More importantly does anyone have a picture of his bike setup? What about Jalabert's?

Yeah, he's so incredibly interested in good. He exposed doping in a bike race but helped cover up actual crimes against children. I wish we had more people like him in the world.

Yes, post them if you have them!

he has a video on his instagram. It even shows his adult onset swim technique
There is now a full IM in Kazakhastan. I suspect he will be somehow involved with that.

it also covers "international" races. and it covers any WC championship qualifiers, and almost every ironman races is a WC qualifier. i don't have a thesis here. just clarifying.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

And right after that the announcers went on a tone deaf riff about the amazing and unbelievable performances of the older age groups, how they’re getting faster and not slowing compared to the younger guys, and how we should check their IDs.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Maybe he paid them off beforehand?

...and generally all I hear about drug testing by Ironman, is when Pros or AGers are tested at the event site, which is only going to catch the really clueless individuals. I know OOC testing exists, but it's rarely referenced afaik.

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29 years and counting

Vino was tested OOC last year.

He was having breakfast with the team at the Vuelta and they showed up.

Haha....the Astana team must have had a good laugh when the boss got hauled for out of competition testing while they continued to drink their special cocktails for breakfast. That must have been a really funny event. Vino comes back, "I took that one for the team....now get on the tarmac and put the hammer down on angliru".

Lance was offered a deal that would have allowed him to keep all results that fell outside of the limitations period. He turned it down.

Lance could have contested the charges against him, and if he lost, he could have appealed. I thought the arguments for the lifetime bans and to extend the limitations period were weak and that Lance would have prevailed on those points had he contested the case. He didn't.

That said, I would support restoring at least some of the titles and giving him some form of clemency.

Whereas cheating is the epitome of good manners ?

Not to forget - just like a dawg, doping gains are for life.

Vinokourov on an Argon 18 with Corima 58mm's. Assuming since the team he manages is sponsored by Argon.

Jalabert on a custom painted Look 596 Monoblade with Corima 3 spokes.

Photos on their Instagram pages.

I don't disagree with chasing all the dopers out of triathlon (easier said than done, though) but I don't understand your willingness to defend a convicted doper. If we're going to chase all the dopers out of the sport, wouldn't we start with the ones we already know about? IMO he, along with all the other confessed or convicted dopers, all deserve lifetime bans. The fact that you drag out the "so are many, many others" excuse, when this was the very same excuse that he and all his fellow dopers used when confronted with accusations of doping, is really pretty poor form.

Jalabert looks a bit upright in the few pictures on his Instagram. Vino looks a little less upright, in that video on his Instagram, but maybe his head is a lot lower when he’s actually racing versus the video of him motopacing.

There was never any deal offered like that. Tygart is lying when he says he offered the same terms as the others. He came to an agreement with Vaughters (over quite a long period of time) to basically give JV's riders a free pass; this, of course, included JV. Initially JV's riders were not to have any suspension time at all. Tygart had to backtrack on that but timed the bans to coincide with the off-season. JV made it up to the riders by continuing to pay them during their time off. Tygart never offered any sort of terms to Lance. It was always kowtow to us and maybe we'll be merciful. Given Tygart's long history of twisting the code for his own ends, this was never a good option, as the end result proved.

Tygart thought CAS would force him to abide by the statute of limitations and not go beyond 2005, arguably the 2004 Tour because the SOL ran out after that and the UCI did not sign on to the WADA code until after the 2004 Tour and before the 2004 Olympics. CAS would not have accepted it; and that is why when going after Bruyneel, they did not introduce any evidence into the arbitration that predated the SOL. Lance decided not fight it anymore and expected Tygart would follow the rules, but he did not count on Tygart's long history of ignoring them and, in some cases, making them up as he went along. Tygart seized the opportunity to gain as much publicity for himself and his agency as possible by going way beyond the rules, stripping wins that occurred not only before the UCI signed on to WADA, not only before the WADA code was written, but to a time before WADA even existed, a time where there were no UCI rules whatsoever that would allow wins to be vacated years and years later.

The kicker is that even as Tygart and his right hand man ignore the rules to screw athletes over, they will quote Bible verses to excuse themselves for stepping over the line. That is no joke.

That's a Look 796, which is the newer model.

Everyone in the top 10 when Lance was racing was implicated in doping. You would have a hard time going down the line of all starters to find a rider that anyone would be willing to champion as being clean.

How many times does it have to be said that Lance got a life ban because of more than just doping?

Tygart himself said that if it was JUST doping Armstrong would have gotten 8 years, the other crap Lance did is what got him the lifetime ban. Time to accept it.

At the awards he was booed by quite a few people.....