eh, Nike has been trying to make that label stick for a couple of years now.

https://www.adweek.com/...g-us-open-ad-173254/

repeating the same incorrect statement over and over and over wont make it true though.

Greatest female tennis player of all time, perhaps and at least in the running..

Not even close to the greatest tennis player(including men)

And not even on the fist 10 pages of greatest athletes of all time, unless the bar for measuring is you have a vagina and have to play tennis..

She might be on the front page near the bottom, of highest paid athletes though, not sure how much she makes in comparison to top men in other sports...

I didn't read your whole post, I didn't need to. Why does it bother you if Nike - or anyone - makes that claim? I hope you never get one of those world's greatest dad or mum mugs I feel for the response your poor kid might get.

I am not offended by the statement. It is, by its nature, one that would require a lot of subjective assessment (e.g., how do you even compare an athlete in one sport against one from another sport). So, it seems that Nike is treating women's tennis as a different sport than men's tennis and then making a subjective assessment (like: who is the greater athlete, Ted Williams or Muhammad Ali). I don't necessarily agree that this is the best way to determine who is the best athlete, but I don't reject it out of hand.

I like this topic. Who would be your top 5 athletes of all time? Use your own criteria.

1. Lebron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Walter Payton
4. Bo Jackson
5. Pele

That’s mine.

Umm how many athletes encompass 10 pages?? Her credentials are pretty stout. Let’s not make the ridiculous argument that because she would lose to the vast majority of male tennis players that she can’t be one of the greatest athletes of all time (and I’m certainly not suggesting she’s one of the greatest athletes ever but I also wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand based on the criteria you suggested).

1 Jim Thorpe
2 Jesse Ownens
3 Duke Kahanamoku
4 Pheidippides
5 Kelly Slater

1.- Jordan
2.- Joe Montana
3.- Phelps
4.- Usain Bolt
5.- Lionel Sanders

You win, sir!

Her credentials may be pretty good, but she is not a slam dunk even for greatest female tennis player. Just based on various wins, and what not.... Margaret Court is a more compelling choice than Serena.

So... If she's not unquestionably the greatest ever in her own sport... How can she be the greatest ever across ALL sport?

Then of course there is the question as to which sport requires the greatest athleticism... I'm not sure that's tennis men's or women's for me. So, I don't think Sampras or Federer or Serena or stephi are on my list anywhere.

Sanders is your #5? Of all time greatest athletes? Seriously? Kidding right? He’s won Kona exactly how many times?

Of course I'm kidding. I thought it would be pretty obvious.

I don't know who I would chose for 5th, but I do know that my favorite athlete of all time is Magic Johnson.

I think she has a respectable argument for greatest female athlete. Of course those arguments are fairly pointless. I mean, in your list you included a legendary character from a couple thousand years ago with little facts actually known...

She is lucky that female tennis is actually fairly popular compared to other sports where often the mens side will dominate.

Completely agree; I was just trying to tone down the rhetoric . Without getting into the weeds, she is probably top 20 female athletes and top 100
all time any sport.

Michael Jordan
Wayne Gretzky
Usain Bolt
Michael Phelps
Muhammed Ali

 I mean, in your list you included a legendary character from a couple thousand years ago with little facts actually known... //

Actually there are many accounts of his accomplishments, the Greeks were a writing bunch of historians. Here is a take from a modern day ultra runner, interesting about the unknown runner that actually died in the 25 mile run...


https://www.runnersworld.com/...-pheidippides-story/

It bothers me for the same reason fake news bothers me (pink font - kinda/sorta). You can’t be the greatest athlete of all time if there are hundreds, if not thousands, of humans who can beat you at your own sport.

1. Ashley Horner
2. Ashley Horner
3. Ashley Horner
4. Ashley Horner
5. Ashley Horner

I would put up Babe Didrikson Zaharias as one of the greatest female athletes, and certainly over Serena. She excelled in multiple sports, to include winning track and field gold medals in the Olympics and 10 LPGA tournaments.

Also surprised nobody has mentioned Paula Newby-Fraser or Chrissie Wellington in this thread.

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

I would bet my life that Serena has won 23 grand slam titles, I wouldn't even put money on any Pheidippides 'facts'. Not saying I know he didn't exist, or even didn't do what is said. There is just a very good chance of embellishment over time considering the little amount that was actually written.

Serena doesn't lead ANY category of wins in women's tennis, and she isnt even listed in some categories (she's never completed the grand slam for instance).

Margaret Court is on every list and is #1 on three of them (more than any other player):
Most grand slam singles wins, most titles at a si.gle tournament, most consecutive tournament titles.

Serena does not dominate her sport the way that Margaret Court did, and she doesn't even compare to the dominance of people like Gretzky, Phelps, Ali, et al... Who completely changed the standard by which others are judged.

It would be hard not to give this title to Kelly Slater. The youngest ever world surfing champion 20 and oldest 39 including 5 consecutive. He also had a three years off during his prime returning to win more world titles and to still be as progressive as any of the new younger gromets still surfing competitively at 46! That being said a different sport but a smaller competitive window Michael Phelps would have to rate pretty close.

Greatest athlete of all time. Secretariat. Still holds the Belmont record set in 1973.

I think you can't possibly compare athletes who play a team sport to athletes who compete individually, has to be two different categories for me.

It would be hard not to give this title to Kelly Slater.//

He made my list, Phelps did not. As record breaking and dominant as Phelps was, I just dont consider swimming enough of an all round sport. Surfing on the other hand requires many more facets of the human body, not just endurance and speed. That's why Thorpe was my top pick, besides the 10 sports of the decathlon, the 5 sports of the pentathlon, he played pro baseball, basketball, and football.


I figure a triathlete ought to be in the top 10, pretty versatile sport with a heavy emphasis on endurance. IT is such a hard topic talking about greatest athletes, everyone comes with their own bias and what constitutes greatness, and which sports deserve higher point values. But I think we can all agree that Serena is not the greatest athlete, that seems like a no brainer...(-;

Ridiculous. Paula Newby-Fraser is one of the greatest triathletes of all time. Please try to claim otherwise. Men and women compete in different divisions for a reason.

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Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4

I think you can't possibly compare athletes who play a team sport to athletes who compete individually, has to be two different categories for me. //

I agree, and each category has to have two more categories, men and women. My list is from the individual sport category, mens only...

Even as far as females go, Katie Ledecky is better at her sport than Serena at hers. In fact, Katie might be the greatest ever, mens or womens in any sport.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

I agree with you Tom. There is often a proximity bias to the present which is hard to overcome and remain objective.

My own list would have to start with the most dominant people in their sport before I started to ruminate about best ever...

Gretsky (?Orr-I'm still a Bawston fan!...)
Phelps (was Spitz-not anymore)
some squash player that I can't remember who I think never lost or something like that
Woods (?Nicholas)
Bolt, Owens-same but different
Marciano, Ali, Lewis (although Tyson changed the game too)
Court (or McKay-not likely Serena, but at least I've seen her in person)
Jordan (?Chamberlain, James-room for arguments...)
Federer
Montana to Rice --I just think it should be a combination, like it was IRL (? Brown, Brady, LT)
Ruth>Cobb
Slater
Bradman
Pele, Maradona (?Ronaldo-man my son had me watch so many shots of his on youtube)
Schumacker, Petty

Armstrong-NOT

Were you born in the 1800s?!

Yes they do compete in different divisions for a reason, because the best women tennis players could not compete with the top men. Sorry that upsets you. PNF is not faster or a better athlete than Jan Frodeno because she won more Kona titles. What determines who is the best triathlete? Is it not speed? So how is PNF a better triathlete than someone who can beat her by close to an hour?

notice I didn't offer a suggestion for the greatest triathlete...
PNF is on the woman's list, for sure, but how about Chrissie-she's my choice, just sayin'


men....hmmm....too many-Allen? but gotta consider Alexander, Scott-also McCormack, Gomez, Brownlee, Frodo

So you bring up an interesting point. Jordan in my opinion is the best basketball player of all time. Yet on my list he is 2nd behind Lebron as the greatest athlete of all time. Jordan's time in baseball was pretty damning to his GOAT athlete.

Someone like Deion Sanders or Bo Jackson have compelling arguments. Sanders was one of the best cover corners to play football and was a pretty good at baseball. Bo was Bo. Amazing but a flash in the pan.

This is why I love this conversation.

That's because the term athlete must be more encompassing than not. I won't include a checkers champion on the list-as that 'sport' isn't athletic, but other sports are more inherently athletic.

What sport is most athletic?

Now that's a question...

and to be able to dominate in one sport and be awfully awesome in another is unique-and is why people like Bo and Deion make the list
(*I still remember that night that Bo ran back the ball for a TD and ran right out of the stadium-I believe it was on MNF-just took my breath away at the time)

http://www.nfl.com/...himself-from-scoring

You are exactly right about the term athlete. I don't think there is a correct answer to who is the greatest of all time. But, for me, it sure is fun to talk about.

What sport is the most athletic. Another can of worms!

1. Jim Thorp
2. Jim Brown
3. Bo Jackson

Then a long way to the next person...

It's not worth getting butthurt over.

It's by its nature a statement and question merely for entertainment value. It's like asking who the great writer is. Or greatest musician. Greatest sports car. Greatest internet troll.

They aren't really statements intended to establish finality, but to provoke a response and a discussion. Which it did both with you.

Just some food for thought. Holy smokes!!! These guys are athletes and crazy.

With modern “athletes” we are seeing achievements from great technicians.

Sports science has come along way; and today’s athletes make choices or choices are made for them to specialize in a sport at a very early age.

When I think of some one who would be called the greatest athlete, I think of someone who has an incredible combination of strength, speed and coordination. They could be successful at almost any sport. They probably wouldn’t be the best at any one sport.

To me it’s hard to gauge how a modern athlete slots in on that basis.

When I think of some one who would be called the greatest athlete, I think of someone who has an incredible combination of strength, speed and coordination. They could be successful at almost any sport. They probably wouldn’t be the best at any one sport. //

You just described Jim Thorpe. Decathlon, pentathlon, high jump, long jump(separate events he competed in from the multi ones) pro football(hall of fame)Pro baseball, and pro basketball. He also did a couple other sports, which people said he never trained for!! Said he would just show up and win. For a guy like him with his background, I would say he gets the all round greatest athlete award.


I wonder if he ever swam or rode a bike???


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe

I think when you decide on greatest athlete of all time, you just compare women against women and men vs men. Obviously you cannot compare men vs women even if they play the same sport. If I use that criteria, I'd put Serena right up there.

Here is a sanity check comparing men and women grand slam totals (not men playing against women, just each sex vs their peers). Here is what you see after I entered names into google


Grand Slams Wins

• Serena Williams 23
• Steffi Graf 22
• Federer 20
• Chris Evert 18
• Navratilova 18
• Nadal 17
• Sampras 14
• Djokovic 13
• Rod Laver 11
• Bjorn Borg 11
• Monica Seles 9
• Connors 8
• Becker 6
• McEnroe 7
• Venus Williams 7
• Hingis 5

Just based on this, Serena is the best tennis pro of all time at least in my lifetime of half a centure. I know a lot of men will jump in and say depth of field is a greater on the men's side, but that's because women across the board have less access to sport, so the women who win are the best of the half the world of women who actually make it to pro tennis.

Now how does Serena compare to say Wayne Gretzky, Jim Brown, Pele, Tom Brady, Don Bradman, Ronaldo, Alberto Tomba, Jean Cluade Killy, Eric Heiden, Sanchin Tendulkar, Lebron James, Usein Bolt, FloJo, Michael Phelps, Bjorne Dahlie, Mark Spitz, Diego Maradona/George Best (can I include them here...probably not), Carl Lewis, Jesse Owens, Emil Zatopek, Lasse Viren, Lance/Merckx/Hinault (gallery of dopers, but hey, everyone on this list is likely well enhanced with what they can get away with anyway)...I'd have no idea who is the greatest among all of those....I could pick any of them and make an arguement for any of them.

Grand Slams Wins

Serena Williams 23
Steffi Graf 22
Federer 20

Margaret Court won 24 individual Grand Slams, also 19 doubles and 21 mixed doubles (a total of 64 Grand Slams).

Dev-

Again you leave off margaret court. 24 slam wins. She also is only one of three women to complete the grand slam... Which Serena has NOT done.

Margaret also won't the Australian open 11 times. More than any other tennis player repeatedly won any single tournament. Serena 7.

Margaret also won more consecutive slam events than any other player with 6. Serena 4.

Margaret is 3rd all time for number of consecutive years with a slam title at 7. Serena is not in the top 5.

They are tied with 2 Years in which they each won 3 of 4 slams.

The only category where Serena outdid margaret is the number of times they each one a tournement without dropping a single set: Serena =6, margeret =3.

She did all that at a time when being a woman tennis player was disparaged and self supported. But, I assume you know that history.

Sorry... Margaret Court takes the title of greatest woman tennis player. Besides, I'd probably put Navratilova over Serena also.

Well 24>23 so Margaret takes it. Sorry for leaving that out. Serena has work to do. I hope she can take it to number 1. Serena gets another shot this weekend now that she advanced to the finals. Gotta like this young girl Naomi Osaka who plays Serena in the finals....she' on TV now and asked for a message to Serena and answers, "I love you".

Regardless, this weekend will be awesome.

I would reverse that order. Bo did things in both sports that you simply weren't supposed to be able to do. He was a true freak of nature. Due to shoddy camera work from the 80's you can't see it all, but I've heard George Brett tell the story. Flat footed, from the warning track, on the fly and on the money. This was also his second best professional sport.

Odd you put the second best QB as number 2 and left the GOAT off your list completely.

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--Chris

I think Erin Baker should deserve a mention

Tony Hawk too

Hard to argue, either way. Three amazing athletes. The anecdotes are certainly there for Mr. Jackson. Longevity is the holdback for me. Mr. Thorp did everything well. I have Mr. Brown 2nd for his lacrosse proficiency, his mental capacity to keep going when it looked like he was done and his willingness to walk away while at the top.

To quote McEnroe (since this started with tennis:)), "you can not be serious" about Kelly Slater. I mean, AFAIK, surfing is even more of a fringe sport than triathlon, and surfing has nowhere near as many competitors worldwide as swimming. I had never even heard of Slater until you mentioned him, whereas virtually everyone in the First and Second Worlds have heard of Phelps.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Court played in the 60’s. I’d put peak court up against peak Serena. Peak Serena wins. Tennis has evolved just like baseball and basketball. It would be close, but Serena wins

I think everyone in the first and second world has heard of Slater except maybe you? Surfing is now an Olympic sport so hardly a fringe sport...

No way! Slater is the greatest surfer of all time for sure. And surfing, at an elite level, is a pretty 3 dimensional athletic endevour. Not sure he could beat anyone at tennis though, or basketball. So how to compare across wildly different sports? - it can't be done in any meaningful way.

We hear the same arguments every time the Olympics comes around and Phelps starts to do his stuff - All these pundits rattling on about whether he's the "greatest olympian of all time" because he's won more medals..... etc etc. ad nauseam..

It's fine for a bit of harmless punditry but unless you are comparing apples with apples any comparison is largely meaningless.

I'd put Rodney Mullen ahead of Tony Hawk ;)

The whole point of Nike calling Serena the Goat is because she is objectively awesome and a Nike athlete.
We all have our favourites. I've noticed most posters are very USA dominant. Many I've never heard of.
Depending on criteria we'd have 10 different lists and no one could agree.
It fun to Google the American sports stars who have almost no impact overseas.

1: Caitlyn Jenner
2:
3:
4:
etc, etc....

Depth of field? You’re either not getting it.....or, you’re being obstinate.

She likely couldn’t beat the world 300th ranked male.........yet she is a better athlete?

Please. Just stop this nonsense.

i think the main thing is that she's really good at sports

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Hell, I’d put CHRIS Mullen in front of Tony hawk.

While I agree with you that Katie Ledecky is better at her sport than Serena at hers. And I believe Ledecky dominates her events like no other swimmer. Ledecky cannot lay claim to being the best swimmer since she can't beat the top males. Just the way it is.

So effin' what? It's generally accepted that you only measure against your potential competition, and for the most part that means that males are measured against males and females against females. Para-athletes get measured against other para-athletes. It really doesn't matter that Ledecky is behind the top males, since she isn't competing against them.

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If you look in terms of records that will never be broken, he's up there, indeed. I'd probably give him a nod as the greatest of all time.

Serena, Federer... they are amongst the greats, but the problem is that you can easily compare them to other players that were/are almost as great. Heck, for Federer, you only have to look at current players.

Anyway, I'd put Ashton Eaton as the greatest athlete of all time

http://www.jonmulkeen.com/blog/athletics/greatest-decathletes-eaton-sebrle-dvorak-obrien-thompson/

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If you actually read anything, I started by saying that you can only compare females with females and men with men, and then decide who is the best athlete within their category and then we can compare all time relative to how they do against their peers. You can't compare Mariana Voss against Chris Froome either, just against her cycling peers

Men can't give birth and play pro tennis, so we're comparing tennis players with other tennis players who have the capability to give birth. Not ones who don't have that ability. Once you compare Serena with her peers and past peers, then we're having a logical discussion. Putting her up against the 300th place man is as irrelevant as asking the 300th place man to also have a baby. If you want to do that, of course women will win at many aspect of life that men suck at and men will win at many aspects of life (including tennis) that men are better designed to do.

Of course on a primarily male forum a lot of you guys will pull the, "well she can't even beat the xyz-th place man"....that's a pretty neanderthal measuring stick that is void of any reasonable basic logic. It's no wonder slowman had to start a women's forum so that women athletes could communicate with each other decoupled from this type of crazy male thinking.

So, you agree nike’s Assertion is ridiculous?

not ridiculous, hyperbolic. She is the best / most dominant female tennis player of all time. Where that ranks in the sphere of "best athlete" is up for debate, with no one correct answer.

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"The only category where Serena outdid margaret is the number of times they each one a tournement without dropping a single set: Serena =6, margeret =3.

She did all that at a time when being a woman tennis player was disparaged and self supported. But, I assume you know that history."

You bring up a whole 'nother issue we have when comparing athletes of different eras. It's simply impossible to tell who is the better athlete. This day and age we have more access to specialize in one sport, more resources (as noted from someone above), Serena has had a lifetime of better opportunity to succeed. HOWEVER, that also means her competition does as well. We can most definitively say that Serena has beaten and lost to better competition in route to her 23 grand slams (as well as her 13 or 14 double and 2 mixed double grand slam titles).

Also a separate category Serena out did Margaret at - 4 Olympic golds (yes we can argue court didn't have that opportunity, but we cant pick and choose stats to keep in our out - or can we?) Not saying one is greater over the other, just pointing out that the debate is never going to get a definitive answer.

Not close. Babe Didrickson by a mile. Two Olympic gold medals (hurdles with a WR and javelin!), one silver medal (high jump). Won the AAU track *team* competition one year by herself. Won 10 majors in golf; made the cut in two men's PGA tournaments (only woman to ever do so). All-American in HS in basketball. Holds the record for the longest baseball throw by a woman: 296 feet.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Who cares what Nike thinks. Serena has won more grand slams than any male tennis player. That's all I was pointing out. I listed a grouping of top athletes across sports, and practitioners of those sports could claim why their athlete is greatest. There is no correct answer. Nike is just doing marketing. In general marketing claims by any marketing department or agency are borderline ridiculous and often outright lies.....why are people even worrying about what Nike says. It's like worrying about Tesla saying that they are better than Audi and trying to weigh with facts what Musk is lying about next. It does not matter what Nike or Musk claim....its all hyperbole

Maybe, that's unknowable. Alternatively, assume Court grows up and trains in the 80s and 90s, who's the better player now? Or Serena grows up and trains in the 40s/50s...again, who's better? Equally unknowable.

The fact remains that Court set the standard for dominance in women's tennis 50+ years ago. That standard has NOT been eclipsed in that time....its only been matched or exceed in one aspect or another by a single player here or there, but no one has come close to matching ALL of the standards that she set across the board.

For reference in Men's tennis the 60's era record setter was Roy Emerson with 12 slam tournament wins. Sampras eclipsed Emerson's record in 2000. Emerson now sits 5th on the all time list, with Federer leading at 20 titles. 3 of the top 4 spots on the Men's side are active players with current top 10 rankings.

So, despite all the improvements in training methods, access, popularity, sponsorship, equipment, etc, etc, etc...Margaret Court's records remain largely in-tact 50+ years later. During the same time period the same thing cannot be said of the Men's side. The standard of dominance is being redefined by the modern era Men.

And my point was not that Court was the defacto best Women's tennis player...but, rather that Serena is NOT the greatest athlete of all time because she arguably isn't even the greatest women's tennis player. If someone isn't UNARGUABLY the greatest in their chosen sport, then its absurd to suggest they are the greatest ATHLETE across ALL sports....Even if we were to conclude that Tennis is the hardest sport of all---because Serena doesn't do anything else. The only caveat to that standard (in my mind) might be someone like Bo or Dion who were able to excel in multiple sports (or multisport athletes).

thank god tennis isn't under a massive PED cloud (cough)

Fight between Thorpe and Jackie Robinson. Varsity at UCLA in football, basketball, baseball, and track. NCAA champion in the broad jump. Undefeated one year in football. Of course, that color barrier thing in baseball, and MVP one year.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

How can you be even the greatest ever in your sport, if hundreds playing that sport..... IN YOUR ERA can beat you?

Thank you.

There are a lot of names who play North American specific sports being put into the top lists.
Baseball, Hockey and NFL aren't worldwide games, that shouldn't be forgotten when picking the greatest of all time. Picking Jordan and Lebron James is the same as picking Muttiah Muralitharan or Sachin Tendulkar.

It's also a question of the best career, or the best at the peak of their career. Best career might say Federer or Floyd Mayweather, best at their peak I would say Tiger Woods or Mike Tyson or Bolt.
Kipchoge in the marathon is the best ever pretty clearly (though he lacks the official WR), Bekele might be the greatest distance runner of all time.

All together though, the greatest athlete of all time for me is Usain Bolt. In Berlin in 2009 he was incredible, but he was great over pretty much his entire career.

please don't make lazy arguments.

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It’s not even close, either.

Nike’s assertion is “cute”.

How many truly worldwide sports are there? Hockey is certainly played in Europe...and many of the top players in the NHL have come from there. But again, its NOT world-wide...at least at a professional competitive level.

I tried to watch cricket once. It's worse than baseball (which is pretty poor)---I won't be making any GOAT picks from either of those sports. Neither of them meet the standard of general athleticism for me. <flame suit on>

Flame suit should be on big time. On this thread guys put Bo Jackson in the all time list...enough athleticism there. I don't need to wade into cricket examples because 95% of you guys won't get it, so not even worth bringing up? I hope to be at the test match at Lords on Sunday.

As for sports that are worldwide....hey what about football...as in soccer?

:-) I probably should have put that in pink. Kinda. I'm not a bat-and-ball sports guy.


I didn't put up a "list", but I like DTOCE's list-by-sport. However, Bo would not make my list---not enough longevity. Besides...his other sport was....baseball. See above. :-)



I grew up playing soccer (18 years of it), but I've always hated watching it. However, I find selecting a GOAT athlete from team sports problematic---its very difficult to separate the team from the player. Any candidate from that realm has to really transcend the "team" aspect. Gretsky is the only team-sports player (that I know of) that comes close to that, to me.

Don't get so upset. Katie Ledecky can claim she is the fastest female swimmer over this or that distance. She just can't claim she is the fastest swimmer ever.

longevity isn't really a huge factor for me, especially since there are pretty wide differences in shelf life of different sports. I tend to think of it as "who was the most dominant at their peak"? A tougher question, perhaps.

Reading through the thread, I had forgotten about Jim Thorpe. Yeah, he's the greatest overall athlete of all time

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I agree to a point... But Bo was never the dominant player in football and he only played for 4 incomplete years only playing 11 games once in that time.

He never even has a single 1000 yard rushing season.

Compare that to just about any other big name to play his position for any single season....

Not. Even. Close.

Yeah, I agree that he's not the greatest athlete of all time. Still impressive though....

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I don't want to start down a rat-hole, but I'd suggest that not everyone agrees that Gretzky is the GOAT for hockey. He's on a very short list with Orr, Lemieux and Howe, and there are arguments that can be made for any of the four.

That's fine. My point was really about the difficulty of separating the team from the player...most team sports "greats" are equal part team and player. Very few get the opportunity to demonstrate that THEIR ability transcends that of the team that they play with.

At the time Court was winning the Aussie, it was a completely different tournament than it is today. It had a much weaker field than the other slams.

And whether you agree with it or not, Court's legacy also gets knocked down by many people because she's very unlikeable.

Completely agree. Though some of that can be demonstrated when elite team players play for different teams over the course of their career, with similar results. Lebron (though I'm not a fan) is a prime example of this.

To me, the only way to ascribe GOAT status is within the context of the sport in question and the timeframe in question.

For an obscure example, Link Lyman, who played with the Canton Bulldogs and Chicago Bears in the 1920s, is considered one of the all-time great offensive tackles. But he was about 6-2, 230 - smaller than many running backs today - and might not start on some high school teams today because football players are so much bigger, stronger and faster. Comparing across sports? That's just not possible. How do you compare 6-2, 235lb, 4.3 40 Bo Jackson to 5-8, 161lb Pele or 5-7 160lb Messi?

Honestly, within the context of her sport, I think Serena is obviously the GOAT. She's much bigger, stronger and faster than Margaret Court or Martina and is playing against much deeper fields than existed in their days. I think she'd beat either of them in their prime, but, of course, that is only conjecture.

But that’s not what nike claims. They claim she’s the greatest athlete.

Like I said. That’s cute.

Jim Thorpe - GOAT

You're all wrong...how did we even get to page 2 without the obvious answer:


Mat Fraser Dominates the 2018 CrossFit Open
:)

wow, Thorpe is amazing.


Serena is impressive but when I think "greatest athlete", I think of a lot of sports before tennis. I do put it ahead of golf though, so she beats Tiger. I don't know how Nike feels about that.

to give a different perspective, I always hated this a-hole. SURE he won the gold medals, and SURE his bike cross-training made him good enough to be a competent cyclist, BUT THEN he had to go to Stanford medical school. friggin show-off.

 

Heiden would make my list.

So would this guy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Karelin

Its this.

you mean this guy?


yea, that's pretty good.

I forgot about that guy! I never watched wrestling except in the Olympics....but, that guy was as dominant as anyone ever could be. Most of the time it was just NO CONTEST. Maybe performances like that get lost because they make it look absolutely effortless, like no one else is even trying.

Wouldn't want to piss off that guy.

Nope, most people outside of surfing areas have never heard of him. Very few surfers outside of the west coast and Hawaii.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

We all have to give the Nike advertising department a lot of credit. I can't think of too many other ads that have caused so much discussion.
I mean people really liked that Hump Day Camel but I can remember what product he was advertising.
Hate or love Nike, we are all talking about their unfounded claims.

Budweiser frogs.

Edwin Moses is on the list as well of all-time greatest, winning 107 consecutive finals over 10 years.

And just to represent swimming a little, Michael Phelps.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

that's the guy.

I'd put Heiden there because of dominance at one games and ability to translate to another sport.

I'd put this guy above for long term dominance and what I think is a much more technically difficult sport (I have never done it).

I would lean more to individual stuff for GOAT. Don't now enough about surfing to know where that fits but would look to these type of people

That sounds suspiciously like a longevity argument.

Yes, Phelps is on my list too. You can't win that much hardware over that much time and NOT be on the list.

I know. I'm inconsistent. I'll give you a full refund.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

But that said, if we just go by "how good were they at their peak" - Bob Beamon.....

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Yeah, I was a long jumper in high school. He set that record the year I was born. And of course, it was still the record when I graduated.

Ill try not to spend it all in one place.

Kelly Slater was also in the 3rd and 4th seasons of Baywatch !

This is far closer to the ideal, in my opinion.

OK, well, that broadens his name recognition. I have seen video clips of Pamela Anderson bouncing along the beach in all her glory, but i never noticed who was playing the male roles. In fact, never even watched a whole program, just the video on youtube. I do not even own a TV since, between work, training, sleep, and of course this forum, i have no free time for TV. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Nike is making this claim for the same reason they have CK as their spokes person. It's all about buzz.

If the argument is made that you can't compare LeBron and MJ bc the game is different over 30 years, why would you even try to do it across sports and genders.

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Brian

5. Eddy Merckx
4. Roger Federer
3. Emil Zatopek
2. Michael Jordan
1. Pele

Ashton Eaton - Decathlon - Double Olympic Gold / Double World Champ / World Record Holder

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashton_Eaton

Recommend this photo stream about his world record: https://www.instagram.com/p/BnEZkdkAz63/

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https://www.strava.com/athletes/nbrowne1

K

You should compare contemporaries on that list. By that measure, Federer probably wins since he’s contemporaneous with Nadal (17), Djokovic (13) and even Sampras (tail end of his 14). Serena has who? Her sister with 7 and Hingis with 5. Evert, Navratilova, and Graf together probably support a strong argument for Graf over Williams. Just saying she’s dominating in a reduced women’s field of contemporaneous greats.

She’s a great player and I respect her accomplishment of most majors. That’s greatness in and of itself. But greatest? I slice my onions a bit differently.

Navratilova was way way better than Serena.

I brought up Babe Didrikson in post #20 in this thread and was roundly ignored. Seems like no one wants to consider her, despite the obvious athleticism and talent across multiple sports.

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___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

I brought up Babe Didrikson in post #20 in this thread and was roundly ignored. Seems like no one wants to consider her, despite the obvious athleticism and talent across multiple sports. //

Thats because the original statement was greatest "athlete" of all time, not greatest "woman" athlete. It has been said before, there needs to be a line drawn between the genders, and each has their own greatest(according to the peanut gallery here of course)


Babe would definitely be in the running for greatest female athlete of all time, for sure...

I tend to put Ledecky and Simone Biles as Legends 1 and 1A among the current generation of female athletes with Serena as a solid and firm third place.

When you talk GOAT, it should be someone who smashed and redefined paradigms, and both those women have. Ledecky redefined what a female distance swimmer can do.

Biles has been so amazing for so long, even if the spotlight falls off her outside of Olympic years. She took a year off after Rio, and when she reappeared earlier this year, it was like 'Hello, the rest of the world is competing for second again this year' by the time she stepped up for her second rotation.

Oddly, I have a hard time putting Michael Phelps over Ian Thorpe. Phelps was the greatest Olympian of all time, but he had a lot of ups and downs throughout the quads, and there were years when he was chasing Ian Crocker or Ryan Lochte at Worlds or Pan Pacs rather than consistently coming in ahead of them. (If only Crocker's career hadn't been moderately derailed by mental health issues...) Thorpe in a 400 or 800, like Ledecky, had this sense of inevitability- the only way someone was going to beat him in his core events at his peak was that time he got DQed for falling off the blocks at Aussie Trials.

Thorpe in a 400 or 800,//

But isn't that what made Phelps so great, he didn't just do a couple events, he went after "8" events, and won them all at different points of his career, and one time winning them all. Of course he would lose some, how would Ledecky do if she was to do the 400IM? What if Thorpe had to swim the 100 and 1500 and a couple more events too? Think they would be invincible then? We already got to see Ledecky in the 400IM, I believe that will be a short lived event for her, as it would ruin her string of mostly winning races. Phelps did not dodge these many events, and swam them on relays too. Ledecky won't even make a few of the relays available, Phelps was penciled in because he was so good and dominant, always rising to the challenge.


What if Phelps only swam the 100/200 fly and 400 or 200IM? He would have been so dominant that we would all be wondering what the hell this super talented guy could do if he only added some more events...(-;

lol seriously?? Most people in Australia would know who Kelly Slater is.

Bronze medal at the 2004 Olympics in the 100 in a hella competitive field that year ain't bad for an off event. Also gold at the 2002 Commies and Pan Pacs and bronze in the 100 free at the 2003 WCs. Also unbeatable in the 200 from 2001-04 including head to head wins over Phelps and many more. He did finish second to Phelps though in the 200 IM at 2003 WCs. (And the Wiki tells me that in the 100 back, which was roughly Thorpe's sixth best event, he still managed a silver in it at the 2002 Commies)

The early 00s were an era of titans in the history of the sport on the men's side.

You seem to be overlooking the fact that MP competed at the very top of swimming for 16 full years from 2000-16, vs Thorpe who only competed at the top for about 6 yrs from 1998-2004. I will have to say though that Thorpe winning the 400 free at the '98 WCs at age 14 was extremely impressive, youngest male ever to win a WC. In my final analysis though, Phelps gets the nod b/c he did so well over so many yrs, during which he was bound to have some ups and downs. Totally agree that the early 00s was an "era of titans" on the men's side. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Much like many of the suggestions on here of US based sports and athletes. You're ignorance does not discount him.

It's the political correctness of our times. It's propaganda. It's the PC sports media trying to create "fake news" to virtue signal their open mindedness versus those who are racist male chauvinists.
Combine diversity points with athletic achievement and we get the greatest athlete of all time in these political times.


Maybe the case could be made for her dominance in the female side of her sport of choice; yet, just because you are dominant in your event in no way makes you the greatest athlete of all time.

OTOH there are female athletes placing high or outright winning male/female competitions. That seems to impress Slowtwitchers.

Which leads me to wonder, which athlete has changed their sport the most? I'll post that for your ideas.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

If only Serena was also LGBTI they would have their perfect poster child..

Best female athlete is Marit Bjoergen.

But I love what Nike is doing.
The company is really good making fat white men feel uncomfortable.
A group of people that is not an important customer group for Nike.
Nike is getting young people to love the brand, and one of the reason is that the people that hate Nike now have no appeal to young people.
Great sports marketing.

Nope, most people outside of surfing areas have never heard of him
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Wait. Kelly Slater's a dude?

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Doesn't that make the fact he ran the fastest time in history a record that still stands today even more impressive. He could have coasted and not won by 31 and 1/2 lengths. Yes should have been in pink.

If someone can Beaman's jump at altitude in Mexico City makes him a jump in the rest of his career he never got within 2 feet of. Why not?

For no reason, my personal favorite moments I've ever watched live on TV in sports:
5. Greg Lemond, final TT in the 1989 Tour de France. 32 mph avg on a steel bike, ladies and gentlemen. 8 seconds. Fignon likely lost because of his pony tail.
4. Katie Ledecky, women's 800 free, London 2012. Ledecky is 15 and was a complete unknown six months prior. No one knew who she was. Ledecky takes it out hard, everyone expected her to die. She was swimming next to the legend Adlington in front of a hostile crowd. She didn't die. The entire crowd was stunned into silence. In retrospect, we were watching the emergence of (undoubtedly) the greatest female swimmer in history.
3. Usain Bolt winning the 100m in Beijing. Absolutely astonishing. 9.69 at a trot. This was watching someone do something they were born to do.
2. Mariano Rivera's blown save in the 2004 ALCS. Midnight at Fenway, Game 4. Yankees up 4-3 in the bottom of the ninth, up 3-0 on the series. In comes Sandman, who was 6-0 in the postseason saves against the Red Sox. GD it, not again. Surely my beloved Sox are screwed. But no. The single greatest turning point in my life as a Red Sox fan. The world was suddenly not so dark.
1. 4x100 relay, Beijing. France in the lead, the absolute beast Alain Bernard on the anchor. Jason Lezak, long the workhorse of the US sprinting corps, a swimmer who's always been solid and reliable if not astounding, dives in with a half a body length to make up against a former world record holder. Bernard goes out hard, surely it's over. Suddenly, Lezak comes off the wall like an absolute torpedo. His kick is literally rooster tailing the water. Bernard starts to tire. The rest is history. 46.06 split. WTF. Lezak will have that on his tombstone. Phelps gets his 8 Golds. The single greatest relay swim of all time. Lezak said afterwards that he saw Bernard on the turn and thought "not this time". Inspirational. The greatest relay ever, and I saw both the 1984 4x200 and 2000 4x100 live.

Nope, most people outside of surfing areas have never heard of him
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Wait. Kelly Slater's a dude?

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I watching prime time Saturday sports on CBS right now, and Kelly Slater's name is mentioned just about every couple minutes. IT is the first ever tour contest in a wave pool, that Kelly Slater helped develop, and it carries his name. Really cool show, if you are home and bored, take a look..

A whole lot more people know Kelly Slater after this morning..

 I agree with you.

If the question is - who is the world’s greatest athlete, many of those mentioned are poor choices. Joe Montana may have been a great quarterback, but being able to throw a football does not equal being a great athlete. The same with being a great golfer. It doesn’t mean you’re a great athlete. I’ve seen fat guys win major golf tournaments. I’ve seen lots of fat NFL lineman and MLB pitchers.

A great athlete must, at the very least, be fast (and quick), strong, have great balance, body control, and have endurance. Decathletes possess these traits. Gymnasts possess many of these traits. Boxers and wrestlers too.

If you can’t run a 5K in under 18 minutes, you’re not a great all around athlete. If you can't do at least 25-30 pull-ups, you are not a great all-around athlete. If you can’t run a hundred meters in under sometime (I don’t know what that time is), you are not a great all-around athlete.

Personally, I think the folks who excel on American ninja warrior are far better athletes than your average MLB, NFL, NBA, and NHL player. How do you think Serena William would do in a local 5K race or as an American ninja warrior contestant?

I just wanted to say thanks for replaying that Beijing 4x100 relay. Best post of this thread. I felt like I was in the water in Lezak's body torpedoing off the wall at 50m shutting Bernard down

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QPYiHi_Vs4










Back to this thread, Serena on deck later today at Flushing Meadows for a crack at Grand Slam title number 24. Go Serena!!!!

Back when she first started setting world records, I remember one of Katie Ledecky's coaches describing her as an 8 minute miler during running and dryland cross training time.

The poster talking about pull ups and 18 min 5K and not having a clue about fast 100m run times?....where did he pull 30 pullups out of the air. I would actually be interested to see how many Phelps could do when he beat Cavic in the 100 fly at Beijing and how many say an NFL football running back could do, or Usein Bolt of someone like Federer (I doubt Federer would get much past 25, but maybe I underestimate him)

I see here that Phelps routinely does 34:

https://www.yourswimlog.com/michael-phelps-numbers/

It looks like in the 100 fly he takes around 20 pulls per 50 meters...so around 40 per 100m, in line with that pull up number(I am trying to figure out how much weight would be beneficial for lat pulldowns for around 50 pulls for 100m....so I am doing some sets of 50 lat pull downs, but have a long long way to go at 100% body weight (well, its kind of impossible because you leave the ground...trying to work up to 70% body weight for lots of reps.

I doubt Phelps could break 18 minutes for 5K....his knees and ankles just hyperextend to much to run with any degree of efficiency. But he does have one of the biggest engines on the planet so shuffling around at 3:48 per km should be OK

The point is Dev, if you don’t have serious upper body strength, I don’t think you can claim to be the world’s greatest athlete. Same with endurance. Do you disagree with that?

She is among the greatest for sure, but let's not mix up tennis, soccer and such sports with the tracks, cycling and swimming !

by the way hasn't IAAF pushed the 5nmol/L testosterone limit rule recently?

how does Serena fair in this matter it looks like there is some argument on the internet

The poster talking about pull ups and 18 min 5K and not having a clue about fast 100m run times?


It's laughable. Does that mean a good athlete runs 18:00 and a bad only manages 17:45? Of is 25 pull-ups the line and if you only manage 23 you're useless?


What about the ability to jump? Or lift a certain amount of weight over your head? Or running speed? Or acceleration ability? Or hand-eye? Or the speed you generate in swing (tennis, golf, squash, cricket, badminton). Or co-ordination, balance, hand-speed etc.

Personally, I think the folks who excel on American ninja warrior are far better athletes than your average MLB, NFL, NBA, and NHL player. How do you think Serena William would do in a local 5K race or as an American ninja warrior contestant?

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You think the average pro athlete in MLB or NFL or NBA couldn't do AN warrior? Half the obstacles are what balance/strength, and you think those type of athletes would struggle? I dont

ETA: Go watch a pro day and you'll see the athleticism from those type of athletes. Shuttle run, agility, power, etc. They'd have zero problem with an ANW course.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

OK do you think these athletes could do 30 pullups:

• Shaquille O'Neill
• Katie Ledecky
• Simon Whitfield
• Mark Allen
• Mo Farah (maybe he could....due to his lightness, but I don't think so)
• Andy Murray
• Barry Bonds
• Larry Bird
• Wayne Gretzky (maybe borderline, as hockey players have crazy hand strength, which is super important for lots of pull ups)
• Frank Shorter
• Tiger Woods
• Lionel Messi
• George Best
• Earl Campbell

I could go on. Some sports require leg endurance, some leg brute strength, some total body power to weight, some upper body power to weight. I think your random selection of pull ups is kind of arbitrary (I say this as someone who got tested on this exercise 3x per year as part of my armed forces fitness test.) Its a bit random because it is also dependend on fast twitch muscle fiber and bone geometry. I bet you that Sarah Sjontrom (100m free and fly gold from Rio) can't even do 30 as pullups are generally much harder with the bone geoemtry that women have (which is why in the military the women had a different standard from the guys).

Thank you for giving me the excuse to post this moment. Chic Anderson's call as Secratariat pulls away on the far turn: "He's moving like a tre---men---dous machine" will never be matched as a real time description of an all time performance and even after hearing it hundreds of times never fails to raise goosebumps.

Can Serena hit a baseball?

she's looking great at the open today

So what is your answer to the question Dev? Do you think someone without serious upper body strength can claim to be the world’s best athlete? We can debate how that is measured.

And by the way, it appears the United States Army Fitness test has lower run standards for woman too. Is that because the bone geometry of woman?

Big loser today.

No horse has beat his time at the major races. Frankly, none were really even close. Man'o'War was close but the records were not being kept at the time.

Of course he is a horse, not a human so it may not be applicable to the OP's question.

Well, you would be wrong. Several have tried. None move on past the first round. https://www.americanninjawarriornation.com/...erican-ninja-warrior

Daley Thompson

And they did that on how much practice? If you think the (i guess you said the ANW athletes who excel) AN warrior athlete is better athlete than an NFL/MLB or pro league sport, we'll just agree to disagree. I dont give 2 shits what your link says.


ETA: I'll put money none of those AN Warriors could "make it to the next round" in any agility/strength set that those types of athletes do. Shuttle/bench/sprint/agility, etc.

ETA #2- 2/3rds of the ANW athletes don't make it to the end of the course, so do they suck at it?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Ninja Warrior/Sasuke isn't so much about pure strength as strength-weight ratio, which puts a large athlete at a disadvantage compared to a smaller person with a background in something like gymnastics or rock climbing where they've long worked to find the perfect balance between muscle and body weight.

Can't believe Wilt is not in the conversation. 20,000 women alone puts him in rare air.

Seriously, read about his non-hoops accomplishments.

And one of the four horses he beat that day was Sham, who was an incredible horse in his own right and very well could have been a Triple Crown winner had he not had the misfortune of being born in 1970 instead of '69 or '71.

Can't believe Wilt is not in the conversation. 20,000 women alone puts him in rare air.


Forget trying to qualify for Kona, or get my golf handicap below 5, that is a record worth chasing.

Now I just have to find 19,999 willing to help the cause.

Sighs.......I didn't watch the match, but only saw highlights of the conversation with the chair umpire. But now SW's coach comes out and says he was coaching, but it sounds like they are mostly mad with how the chair umpire addressed the issue? And now SW is saying the chair umpire is sexist.......She's one hell of an athlete, but when that train sometimes falls off, it falls off hard for her. I believe she yelled at a line judge a few years ago at the US Open (may have been 5 or so years ago, cant remember the date).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I looked it up and it was 2009 when she got into the line judge's face with a "I swear to God I'm [expletive] going to take this [expletive] ball and shove it down your [expletive] throat, you hear that? I swear to God."

I agree with you. The good ones have a tremendous strength to weight ratio. That’s why I am much more impressed with them than I am with a 320 pound NFL lineman who can only benchpress 225 pounds for 27 reps.

Same with gymnasts, male and female. They have a tremendous strength to weight ratio.

This is who initially came to mind for me, anyhow. If dominance over your competitors is a criteria, he fits that bill as well.

Him and Bo Jackson.

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Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

Wow, I cant believe she is trying to use the gender card as an excuse for her poor sportsmanship and loosing...unbelievable..

Clearly gets coached by her coach (which has has admitted to) and gets a warning, has a little sook and smashed a racket so gets a violation, calls the umpire a thief and get a verbal abuse penalty. And some how she turns this into her championing for women's rights?? The level of delusion is mind boggling....

“I just feel like the fact that I have to go through this is an example for the next person that has emotions that wants to express themselves, that wants to be a strong woman and they’re going to be allowed to do that because of today."

ESPN with 3 women analysts (and 1 male counter part) said the one issue that her "rant" was the 3rd penalty (meant lost of game), and that they saw most of the time when players (especially males as this what they were comparing) already have been given warnings they dont keep arguing. They tread much more lightly when they've already been A) given a warning B) already lost a point C) know that the next issue will be lost of game.

ETA: They also said, coaching should just be allowed. I'm guessing they don't have to have them on the sidelines or allowed to "talk" every game, but just allow the hand signals, etc that they all seem to do.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Even after the game she continued to threaten the umpire telling him he would never be on the same court as her ever again-the ego is astounding...but I guess when you are being told you are 'the greatest athlete ever..'

Yeah... She's fucking bonkers!

Fixed it for her.

I sure hope it sets an example... An example of what gets you a big fat, fucking fine and suspension!

yeah today was just wow

not to be sexist but chicks are crazy sometimes
and I'm married and have a young daughter, so I speak from experience......

One young daughter? Please.

Raised three redhead girls, wife is redhead, too. They are all 30+ now. You have a long way to go to fully appreciate the crazy.

Raised three redhead girls, wife is redhead, too. They are all 30+ now. You have a long way to go to fully appreciate the crazy.

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If only this was out 30+ years ago for you.....


(Universal Hot vs Crazy Matrix)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwbKYcBdVyk
(scroll to 1:53-2:10)

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I like to play with fire.

that is pretty sad. not all Great Champions (TM) are great champions.

Twitter going into meltdown of Ross Tucker saying she was simply reverting to type when playing badly (i.e. it's her personality to lose her shit when she is not doing well). Some people really need to think first and take offence later.

https://twitter.com/.../1038714773939081216

Awesome, thanks for posting!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

It's funny because he calls out Sharapova, Froome (& Sky), Pistorious and Armstrong and he is a 'hater'. He calls out Mo Farah and Serena and he's a racist and or sexist.

https://amp.smh.com.au/...20180909-p502q2.html

Worth a read

So Serena gets all high and mighty when she feels the umpire insinuated that she was cheating and then acts shocked when she gets a penalty for calling him a cheat and a thief? The entire fiasco she put on was over the top and embarrassing. I have seen male players say awful things to the chair umpire and they are usually reprimanded and given a warning. Usually they take the warning and go on about the match. For her to cry sexism because she lost a game for less than what male players get away with is untrue. Most players just realize they should shut up and play before getting that 2nd or 3rd offense.

I'm not defending Williams as bad sportsmanship is bad sportsmanship, period. But I found it amusing later that evening when Jimbo Fisher absolutely lost his shit over a call that went against Texas A&M and faced no consequences over it.

Didn’t see any of the Jimbo stuff. Apples to oranges. It may be unfair but college and professional football are completely different animals compared to tennis. Do you think the referee in the A&M game would have taken the same grief from a player? I highly doubt it.

I just take exception to her saying the umpire stole a point from her. That’s not true. She knew that she had one offense for coaching. She may not have agreed with it, but hey that’s the way it goes. She knew her next offense would equal a point yet she broke her racquet anyway. She gave that point away herself when she lost her cool, the umpire didn’t steal it.

Now, being a professional and knowing the rules, she should have tread very carefully not to get that 3rd offense. She didn’t, she kept harassing the umpire about an apology and calling his character into question, after she chastised him for challenging her character. She gets her 3rd violation and forfeits a game.

That’s when it really got embarrassing, crying sexism for being held accountable for violating the rules. She later said that she would be proud for her daughter to watch her act like that. I wouldn’t want my kids to see me acting like that.

Overall, I think she got frustrated about losing and then the umpire set her off by placing the coaching violation. All downhill from there.

On NPR this morning they were talking about the match. Then there was a quick mention of how (at some time in the past, I assumed) she was being recognized as the greatest female tennis player of all time, but SHE wasn't happy with that and wondered why she wasn't considered the greatest athlete of all time. It was something along those lines. I browsed NPR website briefly but couldn't find that in writing.

Maybe that's where Nike got it from?

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Team Zoot - Great Lakes

I think this is a little bit why people had a hard time with Tiger also. Before he had his weird breakdown thing happen.

I go back to the tournament where his ball was stuck behind a big rock. The crowd came over and picked up the rock and moved it for him. Technically, ok by the rules, but totally not in the spirit of the game.

Sometimes the game or sport needs a little jolt, but, that comes with consequences. She's going up against the tennis world. And people aren't going to like it.

Golfers are just now able to wear shorts, sometimes. Even then, it's been long pants and collar shirts for a really long time. So, the catsuit and dress code thing isn't uncommon. Not sure where I stand on it.

I think if she made it more about breaking down barriers and openly changing the sport for everyone's good, it would be perceived different. But making only about herself doesn't work so well.

The answer is simple. How athletic do you need to be to play two sets of tennis?

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Interval Design Studio
YouTube | SoundCloud

I did not watch the match, but the accounts I heard she had already basically lost before this happened. Was that the case?

And the sexism thing is being way over blown in my opinion. If it were a man and a woman playing each other and the match was being called differently for each that is sexist. The fact that someone thinks men would have gotten away with something different is really neither here nor there to me. Most importantly is that the rules are applied equally to the two competitors in the match. Next would be applied the same over time. I'm not saying men should be given more leash, but if it is known then don't cross the line. If you want to cross that line to break that barrier, great, but make it about that. This is just a shit show bc it's SW and she seems to me to have entitlement issues.

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Brian

Roid rage?

Pink?

A few unrequested and highly biased thoughts regarding the US open finals debacle:

I'll preface this by saying that I genuinely have immense respect for Serena Williams as an athlete. When she's on, no one can stay with her. It's been that way for years and years. Given the current depth in women's tennis, I don't think it's a stretch to call Williams the greatest female tennis player ever. At least, she's certainly in the conversation with legendary champions like Graf and Navratilova. Also, I'd put her in the conversation as the most dominant athlete worldwide in their sport today.

I'm less of a fan of her character. Frankly, based on her behavior I think Serena is a world-class jerk. This is hardly the first time she's acted like a narcissistic bully. In fact, you could say her behavior demonstrates a clear pattern of heedless self-concern, arrogance and superiority to those around her. I've noticed that when the spotlight is taken off of her, she gets whiney and entitled. Her making final all about her and less about the astonishing performance of a new player was selfish in the extreme. Again, none of this in unique to Serena, she's hardly the only entitled millionaire athlete out there. In fact, this kind of attitude is common among champions and Serena is clearly a great champion. She's no worse than some, but she's also not a whole lot better.

Regarding the specific incident, it's pretty clear she deserved the penalties. Smash a racket? That's a point. Get coached (and her coach admitted he was coaching) and get caught, that's a point. Call the umpire a "liar" and a "cheat" and talk about destroying his career on court? Yeah, that's unacceptable and worthy of a game penalty. I also think the "well, others have done worse" argument is both likely wrong and ultimately pointless. Consider the facts of the case and the outcome is reasonable.

Regarding the claims of "sexism", I'm not sure what to think. Of course there's sexism in sport and I'm sure Serena has been a victim of sexism. I don't think this is one of those times, though. I think the rush to defend Serena in the press is misguided and biased, especially given that most people I've talked to (both men and women) agree that she acted unacceptably. Certainly there are male tennis players who have a habit of acting like jerks, Kyrgios in particular has a long history of on court boorishness. However, it's not as if these male players get a pass with fans or officials. McEnroe was hardly universally adored in his day and Kyrgios doesn't have many fans today. Also, personally I've never heard a male tennis star make on court threats of violence and even death as Serena has. I saw that 2009 incident live and it was unequivocally shocking. Also, I've never heard a male tennis star call an umpire a "thief" and "liar". This one was also shocking. Overall, the punishment fits the crime and that's all there really is to say.

She is the greatest doper of all times (legal doper, I’m sure she has doc notes for all the testosterone that helps her sleep at night etc.), she makes Lance look like school boy. Not only in doping department, but also BS department.



She is clearly losing the game, but still makes herself point of the attention, she literally steals the greatest moment of the other girl ( I do not even know her name, because everyone talks only about Serena) and makes the entire match about herself, by playing women movement card… totally pathetic considering fact she is playing against another woman. For sure she was on power trip, she blew the fuses all the way…

So...?

I mean, I can't pretend to be a decathlon buff, but would your opinion change after the weekend? ;)

really, a list without carl lewis?