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Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance???
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Hey Tom, I read your comments a while back on the Compass Jon Bon Pass test on bicyclerollingresistance.com intimating that you were working on a testing protocol for the grave/adventure tire category. Any updates? I was also surprised that the Jon Bon Pass tested so poorly in that test and that you found it to be as slow as the knobby Steilacoom in your own testing!!!

Needless to say, given the inherent trade-offs one must make with regard to the optimal balance of rolling efficiency, weight, traction, sidewall protection, etc...for the specific mix of all-road terrain, I imagine I am not the only one yearning to demystify the rolling resistance of this genre of tires to aid in tire selection.

Currently, I'm running the Maxxis Rambler 120TPI 40mm as most of my rides mix a fair amount of pavement and gravel here in Boulder, but I would love to know how much, if any, rolling resistance I'm sacrificing on the pavement by running a mild small-knob tread such as the Rambler or the Gravelking SK as opposed to the smooth file tread of a Compass, Scwhalbe G-One, or Panaracer Slick.

Hit us with the science Tom!!!
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [chrisgrigsby] [ In reply to ]
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Send him some tires and I am sure he will be happy to accommodate you. I think I read he has a gravel bike and is starting to do some of that type of riding, but like anyone not getting paid for this, most of his work is self-funded.
I would love to see some tests of actual tires, but I have done some of my own powermeter testing and found some of the tires hold up pretty well. I compared a Conti 4000S II (latex at 70 PSI) with a Schwalbe G-One Allround (45ish psi tubeless) and could not tease out any difference. Later on I tried the G-One at 50 psi and then 30 psi and again could not tease out any difference. I am sure there is a difference, but when you look over at bicyclerollingrestance.com and see his results for the Big One tire, 25 to 55 psi only resulted in 4 watts difference for that tire.
Heck, I would test tires if someone sent them to me. My own testing over the years does not have the same kind of exactness as ā€˜labā€™ testing, but if you do self-testing enough, you can do it well enough to make good equipment choices.

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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [chrisgrigsby] [ In reply to ]
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I was on G-One (30c) @ 60psi this past weekend on my new gravel bike... I felt atleast 2mph slower on the flats outputting the same power.. depressing.


compared to my road bike on turbo cottons
Last edited by: spntrxi: Aug 26, 18 21:03
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [spntrxi] [ In reply to ]
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I'm curious to know what you mean by, "It felt 2mph slower at the same power." If you use one of the models for speed and wattage, 2 mph difference at lower speeds (15-17mph) is about 30 watts. At higher speeds (19-21 mph) the 2mph difference is 45 watts. That seems unlikely given the difference between the turbo cotton and a very slowest of the road tires is only about 10 watts. If you were really riding the same wattage and found that great of a difference, then wind or something else was likely at work, especially since the G-One tires have tested very fast. As I mentioned above, my Allround model was as fast as a GP4000 SII. If you have the Speed model, I expect it will be nearly as fast as the Cotton and certainly faster than my Conti GP4000.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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I only have 1 ride in on my Gravel bike... but I'll just grab a 5 mile segment from strava.. Granted the bikes are different but nearly the same (except for the gravel bike being 2lbs heavier, but same powermeter) This 5 mile segment is flat and just riding.. not pushing because it's a MUP on the way to Mt Diablo.

TurboCotton : Avgspd 15.9 Pwr 157
G-one :Avgspd 14.1 Pwr 167

Far from scientific I know... but hey I can feel the Crr :)

Here's another 3mi segment.

TC Avg 18.4mph Pwr 170
G-One 17.0 Pwr 198

I mean there are a ton of other factors I'm sure... but no doubt in my mind the 30c are slower by a good margin and yes they are the "speed" model. I'm selling my #1 road bike and this one will have to do until I buy a new fangled "aero" bike... fast group rides are going to be harder unless I swap the TC back on.

all in all the whole ride took about the same time... but I avg 24w more :) It will make me stronger
Last edited by: spntrxi: Aug 27, 18 9:19
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [spntrxi] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think anyone doubts that there is a difference between those two tires. It is the magnitude that sounds off. A small change in wind direction would more than overcome the difference between tires.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [chrisgrigsby] [ In reply to ]
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I love the Rambler. It feels fast on every surface. I like that it is a very light tire too.
Compass tires seem fast but very fragile.
The G-One is decent, but not great, IMO.

I asked a similar question before here and Tom answered: "Challenge Gravel Grinder Pro 36C w/latex tubes"
As much as I loathe to go back to tubed tires, he is probably right.
Tubeless have stiffer sidewalls which increase rolling resistance.

FWIW, I ride Vittoria Terreno Dry 40C. They roll reasonably well, but are heavy. My 33C Clement MXP's, while a full on CX tire I swear are faster and provide better handling on all roads but pavement.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [spntrxi] [ In reply to ]
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spntrxi wrote:
I only have 1 ride in on my Gravel bike... but I'll just grab a 5 mile segment from strava.. Granted the bikes are different but nearly the same (except for the gravel bike being 2lbs heavier, but same powermeter) This 5 mile segment is flat and just riding.. not pushing because it's a MUP on the way to Mt Diablo.

TurboCotton : Avgspd 15.9 Pwr 157
G-one :Avgspd 14.1 Pwr 167

Far from scientific I know... but hey I can feel the Crr :)

Here's another 3mi segment.

TC Avg 18.4mph Pwr 170
G-One 17.0 Pwr 198

I mean there are a ton of other factors I'm sure... but no doubt in my mind the 30c are slower by a good margin and yes they are the "speed" model. I'm selling my #1 road bike and this one will have to do until I buy a new fangled "aero" bike... fast group rides are going to be harder unless I swap the TC back on.

all in all the whole ride took about the same time... but I avg 24w more :) It will make me stronger

I could be way off here, but are you running too low of a PSI?

I run 80 in a 30 and can't really tell that much of a difference between that and a 25 at 100 PSI. The lower PSI I run, the slower it feels. I weigh about 185ish for reference.

jake

Get outside!
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [jakers] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe.. I was at about 60psi...
Same weight as you
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [chrisgrigsby] [ In reply to ]
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chrisgrigsby wrote:
Hey Tom, I read your comments a while back on the Compass Jon Bon Pass test on bicyclerollingresistance.com intimating that you were working on a testing protocol for the grave/adventure tire category. Any updates? I was also surprised that the Jon Bon Pass tested so poorly in that test and that you found it to be as slow as the knobby Steilacoom in your own testing!!!

Needless to say, given the inherent trade-offs one must make with regard to the optimal balance of rolling efficiency, weight, traction, sidewall protection, etc...for the specific mix of all-road terrain, I imagine I am not the only one yearning to demystify the rolling resistance of this genre of tires to aid in tire selection.

Currently, I'm running the Maxxis Rambler 120TPI 40mm as most of my rides mix a fair amount of pavement and gravel here in Boulder, but I would love to know how much, if any, rolling resistance I'm sacrificing on the pavement by running a mild small-knob tread such as the Rambler or the Gravelking SK as opposed to the smooth file tread of a Compass, Scwhalbe G-One, or Panaracer Slick.

Hit us with the science Tom!!!


I thought I heard someone calling (cursing?) my name ;-)

Yes...I've dabbled a bit in trying to get a handle on "gravel tire" performance...and like the bikes themselves, there's usually quite a bit of trade-offs to be considered when trying to make a tire choice.

In other words, short of running actual Turbo Cottons on the bike...you're going to have a hard time matching the pavement performance of a TC (that said, the newer 28mm wide TCs work quite well in "light gravel" conditions...so there's that :-)

OK...so, here are some basic "truths" I've been able to come up with. Most of these are in the "well, duh" category of common sense, but some might be a bit more surprising. In no particular order:

- As with any tire, casing thickness and rubber compound matter in regards to both efficiency (low Crr) AND "comfort". To paraphrase Jan Heine, "Supple tires rule." All other things being equal, high thread count casings and low-loss rubber compounds will lead to a more efficient and more "comfortable" tires.

- The trade-off for high TPI tires is the casing is thinner, and thus easier to puncture or cut. To combat this, designers start adding in puncture belts and sidewall protection materials, both of which lead to lower efficiency (higher Crr) and stiffer tire casings. IMHO, especially with models that can be set up tubeless, sometimes the designers go a bit overboard in doing so, and thus basically "undo" any advantages of higher TPI casings. A case in point: The Challenge Gravel Grinder tires are available in both a "Pro" model that has a 260tpi cotton casing with a glued on tread (i.e. "open tubular" type construction), and in a "Race" model that is a vulcanized 120tpi nylon casing. All things being equal, the "Pro" should have lower Crr than the "Race"...EXCEPT, they put a double layer of puncture protection in the "Pro" model, while the "Race" has a single layer. The result of this is that they roll basically identically. Another case in point: the Vittoria Terreno Dry has a very nice 120tpi nylon casing and uses their fast rolling Graphene compounds...but they use a relatively stiff sidewall protection material, and they don't roll as well as they should. In fact, I found them not to roll as well as the Gravel Grinder models, which arguably have a less "high tech" tread compound.

- Once you start adding tread texture beyond a file tread (i.e. going to a diamond-tread center and/or small knobs), you start slowing down the pavement performance by quite a bit. All of that additional rubber flexes on hard surfaces and causes energy losses.

- In researching off-pavement Crr measurements, the data I've seen shows it's pretty clear that once on the dirt, it's the compression of the surface that starts driving the rolling resistance. Measurements with MTBs shows that the lower the pressures that can be run, the lower the Crr for a particular setup. This means that for fast performance off-pavement, you want to run the widest tires you can fit at the lowest pressures that will protect your equipment from damage.

- In choosing a potential tire for mixed-surface use, one of the main considerations is smooth (file tread, e.g. Compass models, Challenge Strada Bianca, or WTB Horizon) vs. texture/knobbies (e.g. G-One, Gravel King SK, Gravel Grinder, etc.) For me, that calculus comes down to the percentages of pavement vs. off-pavement, how rough the off-pavement sections are, and how wide of a tire can be fit in the bike.
  • If the course is something like BWR, with LOTS of pavement miles and with relatively "benign" off road sections (double-track and somewhat smooth single-track), I'm going to go for as wide of a smooth (file tread) tire I can fit. I'm talking 36mm wide (measured) or greater. Some may be tempted to go narrower with a smooth tire thinking they'll be "faster" on the road, but IME that isn't necessarily the case. The wider tires, if they're "supple", won't be any slower on the pavement, and will handily outperform narrower smooth tires off-pavement (mostly due to the lower pressure). Choosing a narrower tire with some "texture" may make you slightly faster off-pavement, but is going to be a huge hindrance on the pavement, which obviously isn't a good idea for a course that's so pavement heavy. Besides, IME it takes quite a bit of texture/knobs on a narrow tire to outperform off-pavement a wide, file-tread tire run at significantly lower pressures.
  • For courses with either a higher percentage of off-pavement, or with more technical off-pavement sections (such as MTB-style single-track), then using a tire with texture/knobs makes sense. But again, the wider the better, because that allows for lower pressures, and lower pressures are faster off-pavement.

Anyway...that's a (not so) quick-and-dirty synopsis of where I stand on this subject right now...I hope that wasn't too much to digest.

P.S. I should have a box waiting for me at home today with some of the new Challenge Gravel Grinder TLR (tubeless ready) tires in it. For that model they eliminated the puncture belt entirely (but added some sidewall rubber). I'll probably be testing those out this coming long weekend...I guess we'll see if the elimination of the belt overcomes the Crr hit of the sidewall rubber...<fingers crossed>

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Aug 27, 18 16:48
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom! Thanks for sharing your experience thus far with various tires in this exploding genre...much appreciated! Can you elaborate more on why the 35mm Jon Bon Pass seems to test so poorly since it seems to have all the attributes of a fast rolling tire? Seems strange based on everything you have stated that a 700x35mm ultra-supple tire with zero puncture protection was on par with a knobby cyclocross tire from the same manufacturer?

I'm running the Maxxis Rambler 40 on my new Enve G23 wheels and have been pretty impressed with their on-road performance...perhaps because they are a 120TPI tire with no sidewall protection belt and only weigh 380g? Then again, they could be slow as molasses compared to a fast road tire, which would be great to know at some point!

Interesting that you found the tire pressure to be the primary determinant in off-road performance. My 3T Exploro came stock with 650b wheels and 1.9" tires (WTB Byway and GravelKing SK) and, while super fun off-road, it was very sluggish on the road. Now I'm curious how they would fare with a file-tread Compass.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome reply, thanks Tom.

I'm running 47mm WTB Byways on 650B rims. Love the setup for comfort and rough stuff, but was wondering how much I'm giving up against a Challenge Strada Bianca Pro 36mm on a 700c rim. I've got a race coming up that's about 60/40 tarmac/gravel. The Byways have a nice smooth middle line, which seems to roll relatively well on the road.

As an aside, the new Zipp 303 discs are impossible to setup tubeless.

Alex
Last edited by: alexZA: Aug 27, 18 20:42
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [chrisgrigsby] [ In reply to ]
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chrisgrigsby wrote:
Tom! Thanks for sharing your experience thus far with various tires in this exploding genre...much appreciated! Can you elaborate more on why the 35mm Jon Bon Pass seems to test so poorly since it seems to have all the attributes of a fast rolling tire? Seems strange based on everything you have stated that a 700x35mm ultra-supple tire with zero puncture protection was on par with a knobby cyclocross tire from the same manufacturer?

Well...to be clear, the BJP I tested was a standard casing, while the Stielacoom tires was a "extra light" (EL) model...but anyways, yeah that BJP seemed to "underperform" as compared to what I had measured for nominally the same tire construction (Snoqualmie Pass) but at in a larger size. Compass isn't very transparent in any changes they make to the tires as they source them from batch-to-batch (from Panasonic), so it's hard to say why that particular tire tested relatively poorly. I think it just points to the fact that one really doesn't know how well a tire performs unless one has a way to test the actual tires.

chrisgrigsby wrote:
I'm running the Maxxis Rambler 40 on my new Enve G23 wheels and have been pretty impressed with their on-road performance...perhaps because they are a 120TPI tire with no sidewall protection belt and only weigh 380g? Then again, they could be slow as molasses compared to a fast road tire, which would be great to know at some point!

Like I said above, there's only one way to know for sure ;-)


chrisgrigsby wrote:
Interesting that you found the tire pressure to be the primary determinant in off-road performance. My 3T Exploro came stock with 650b wheels and 1.9" tires (WTB Byway and GravelKing SK) and, while super fun off-road, it was very sluggish on the road. Now I'm curious how they would fare with a file-tread Compass.

That's not something I've measured myself (yet), but is instead something I learned from some fairly extensive MTB tests that have been published. But, when you think about it, it makes sense. The lower the pressure, the more "suspension" you'll be getting from the tires AND the more "flotation" over the soft surfaces (i.e. you'll be compressing the dirt less while rolling). But, as you point out, the flip-side is the lower pressures might be slower on pavement...which again points to the widest tire possible being the best compromise since it allows the lower pressures with good pavement performance.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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HI Tom, first off let me say how much I appreciate your tire work. Kudos. While I whole heartedly agree with your synopsis here, in terms of rolling resistance, I think for gravel riding or racing here in the Flint Hills of Kansas, sidewall protection comes at a premium. With the sharp, large gravel we have here, lighter tires tend to become troublesome due to the lack of sidewall protection. While you mentioned the Vittorias having a higher rolling resistance due to the thicker sidewalls, they are actually very popular here along with the gravel kings mostly in the 38-40c variety. Choosing a gravel tire definitely varies from course to course. Cheers, Steve
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [SteveDDS] [ In reply to ]
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SteveDDS wrote:
HI Tom, first off let me say how much I appreciate your tire work. Kudos. While I whole heartedly agree with your synopsis here, in terms of rolling resistance, I think for gravel riding or racing here in the Flint Hills of Kansas, sidewall protection comes at a premium. With the sharp, large gravel we have here, lighter tires tend to become troublesome due to the lack of sidewall protection. While you mentioned the Vittorias having a higher rolling resistance due to the thicker sidewalls, they are actually very popular here along with the gravel kings mostly in the 38-40c variety. Choosing a gravel tire definitely varies from course to course. Cheers, Steve

Understood.

Here's an interesting story. A riding buddy of mine did DK this year. When he returned, I asked him about the infamous Flint Hills rocks...he actually said that he thought some of the relatively unmaintained forest roads and trails we commonly ride here (SoCal, Santa Barbara area) had sharper, and more, rocks than anything he saw on course in Kansas. These are routes I've ridden often with tires like the Challenge Gravel Grinder Pro (thin 260tpi casing w/no extraneous sidewall protection) without issue, so that's partly why I'm of the opinion that making a set of tires 5-10W slower by incorporating sidewall guards might not be the best design tradeoff.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
chrisgrigsby wrote:
Hey Tom, I read your comments a while back on the Compass Jon Bon Pass test on bicyclerollingresistance.com intimating that you were working on a testing protocol for the grave/adventure tire category. Any updates? I was also surprised that the Jon Bon Pass tested so poorly in that test and that you found it to be as slow as the knobby Steilacoom in your own testing!!!

Needless to say, given the inherent trade-offs one must make with regard to the optimal balance of rolling efficiency, weight, traction, sidewall protection, etc...for the specific mix of all-road terrain, I imagine I am not the only one yearning to demystify the rolling resistance of this genre of tires to aid in tire selection.

Currently, I'm running the Maxxis Rambler 120TPI 40mm as most of my rides mix a fair amount of pavement and gravel here in Boulder, but I would love to know how much, if any, rolling resistance I'm sacrificing on the pavement by running a mild small-knob tread such as the Rambler or the Gravelking SK as opposed to the smooth file tread of a Compass, Scwhalbe G-One, or Panaracer Slick.

Hit us with the science Tom!!!


I thought I heard someone calling (cursing?) my name ;-)

Yes...I've dabbled a bit in trying to get a handle on "gravel tire" performance...and like the bikes themselves, there's usually quite a bit of trade-offs to be considered when trying to make a tire choice.

In other words, short of running actual Turbo Cottons on the bike...you're going to have a hard time matching the pavement performance of a TC (that said, the newer 28mm wide TCs work quite well in "light gravel" conditions...so there's that :-)

OK...so, here are some basic "truths" I've been able to come up with. Most of these are in the "well, duh" category of common sense, but some might be a bit more surprising. In no particular order:

- As with any tire, casing thickness and rubber compound matter in regards to both efficiency (low Crr) AND "comfort". To paraphrase Jan Heine, "Supple tires rule." All other things being equal, high thread count casings and low-loss rubber compounds will lead to a more efficient and more "comfortable" tires.

- The trade-off for high TPI tires is the casing is thinner, and thus easier to puncture or cut. To combat this, designers start adding in puncture belts and sidewall protection materials, both of which lead to lower efficiency (higher Crr) and stiffer tire casings. IMHO, especially with models that can be set up tubeless, sometimes the designers go a bit overboard in doing so, and thus basically "undo" any advantages of higher TPI casings. A case in point: The Challenge Gravel Grinder tires are available in both a "Pro" model that has a 260tpi cotton casing with a glued on tread (i.e. "open tubular" type construction), and in a "Race" model that is a vulcanized 120tpi nylon casing. All things being equal, the "Pro" should have lower Crr than the "Race"...EXCEPT, they put a double layer of puncture protection in the "Pro" model, while the "Race" has a single layer. The result of this is that they roll basically identically. Another case in point: the Vittoria Terreno Dry has a very nice 120tpi nylon casing and uses their fast rolling Graphene compounds...but they use a relatively stiff sidewall protection material, and they don't roll as well as they should. In fact, I found them not to roll as well as the Gravel Grinder models, which arguably have a less "high tech" tread compound.

- Once you start adding tread texture beyond a file tread (i.e. going to a diamond-tread center and/or small knobs), you start slowing down the pavement performance by quite a bit. All of that additional rubber flexes on hard surfaces and causes energy losses.

- In researching off-pavement Crr measurements, the data I've seen shows it's pretty clear that once on the dirt, it's the compression of the surface that starts driving the rolling resistance. Measurements with MTBs shows that the lower the pressures that can be run, the lower the Crr for a particular setup. This means that for fast performance off-pavement, you want to run the widest tires you can fit at the lowest pressures that will protect your equipment from damage.

- In choosing a potential tire for mixed-surface use, one of the main considerations is smooth (file tread, e.g. Compass models, Challenge Strada Bianca, or WTB Horizon) vs. texture/knobbies (e.g. G-One, Gravel King SK, Gravel Grinder, etc.) For me, that calculus comes down to the percentages of pavement vs. off-pavement, how rough the off-pavement sections are, and how wide of a tire can be fit in the bike.
  • If the course is something like BWR, with LOTS of pavement miles and with relatively "benign" off road sections (double-track and somewhat smooth single-track), I'm going to go for as wide of a smooth (file tread) tire I can fit. I'm talking 36mm wide (measured) or greater. Some may be tempted to go narrower with a smooth tire thinking they'll be "faster" on the road, but IME that isn't necessarily the case. The wider tires, if they're "supple", won't be any slower on the pavement, and will handily outperform narrower smooth tires off-pavement (mostly due to the lower pressure). Choosing a narrower tire with some "texture" may make you slightly faster off-pavement, but is going to be a huge hindrance on the pavement, which obviously isn't a good idea for a course that's so pavement heavy. Besides, IME it takes quite a bit of texture/knobs on a narrow tire to outperform off-pavement a wide, file-tread tire run at significantly lower pressures.
  • For courses with either a higher percentage of off-pavement, or with more technical off-pavement sections (such as MTB-style single-track), then using a tire with texture/knobs makes sense. But again, the wider the better, because that allows for lower pressures, and lower pressures are faster off-pavement.

Anyway...that's a (not so) quick-and-dirty synopsis of where I stand on this subject right now...I hope that wasn't too much to digest.

P.S. I should have a box waiting for me at home today with some of the new Challenge Gravel Grinder TLR (tubeless ready) tires in it. For that model they eliminated the puncture belt entirely (but added some sidewall rubber). I'll probably be testing those out this coming long weekend...I guess we'll see if the elimination of the belt overcomes the Crr hit of the sidewall rubber...<fingers crossed>

Will be VERY interested in hearing how those tires work.

I also run the Gravel Grinders w latex tubes, and they are awesome all-around tires.

Switched to GP4KS IIā€™s for my vaca last week, and they are very fast on the road (duh!) but become very ā€œinterestingā€ as the off-road riding gets more technical.

Iā€™d love to go tubeless w the GGā€™s if possible.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Murphy'sLaw wrote:


Will be VERY interested in hearing how those tires work.

I also run the Gravel Grinders w latex tubes, and they are awesome all-around tires.

Switched to GP4KS IIā€™s for my vaca last week, and they are very fast on the road (duh!) but become very ā€œinterestingā€ as the off-road riding gets more technical.

Iā€™d love to go tubeless w the GGā€™s if possible.


The box came...by my "hand feel", the sidewalls don't appear to have much, if any, additional rubber on them...yesssss...

My hope is that these end up being the "Goldilocks" tire of the textured/treaded realm (i.e. a treaded tire that rolls on pavement as fast as other "smooth/file" offerings").

Of course, that would also bode well for the TLR version of the file tread Strada Bianca, especially in a 650B x 46 offering that has been touted. I may just need to finally put together a 650B wheelset so I can fit a tire that wide in my Fuji :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Aug 28, 18 10:17
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom,

Is the new Challenge Gravel Grinder TLR also 700x36mm?

I've been using my Compass switch back hills 650x48mm for the majority of my riding lately and would love to try a Strada Bianca 650B x 46 with some tread. Most of the terrain I enjoy requires 40mm+ tires, so I'm sold on the large volume 650 format.

_______________________________________________
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Do you have a Goldilocks, tubeless file tread wide tire? Or are you sticking with low pressure latex?
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Bonesbrigade] [ In reply to ]
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Bonesbrigade wrote:
Tom,

Is the new Challenge Gravel Grinder TLR also 700x36mm?

I've been using my Compass switch back hills 650x48mm for the majority of my riding lately and would love to try a Strada Bianca 650B x 46 with some tread. Most of the terrain I enjoy requires 40mm+ tires, so I'm sold on the large volume 650 format.

The Gravel Grinder TLRs come in a 700x33, 38, and 42 listed sizes, just like the previous "Race" models.

I actually found the Race 700x38 to be a bit under the listed size. Directly comparing a flattened tire bead-to-bead with the 700x38 TLR model, it looks like they widened up the casing by a few millimeters on the TLR, so it should measure more true-to-size.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks good to know! I'll keep an eye out for the 700x42mm versions.

_______________________________________________
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [torrey] [ In reply to ]
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torrey wrote:
Do you have a Goldilocks, tubeless file tread wide tire? Or are you sticking with low pressure latex?

The Compass Snoqualmie Pass 700x44 rolls fairly well (and is tubeless capable)...but not as well as the 700x36C Challenge Strada Bianca Pro w/latex tube (~2-3W slower per pair at 30kph) despite the latter's double layer puncture belt...which is why I have high hopes for the TLR version of the Strada Bianca (no puncture belts) being even faster.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [chrisgrigsby] [ In reply to ]
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I just read every post in this thread and I'm really surprised that there's no mention of the WTB Resolute. Over the course of 5 or 6 years of riding the gravel roads all around my rural home (which take on various characters as all gravel roads do based on when and how they're resurfaced, what the hunting traffic does to them, etc.) the only tire mentioned in the thread here that I haven't ridden is the Challenge Strade ... or whatever that tire was called. I have a couple of trash bags loaded with cast-off tires from Compass and Schwalbe and Challenge and other WTBs (including Horizon and By-Way).

Like most people, my gravel rides involve a lot of pavement to connect gravel sectors. One tire has stood head and shoulders above all others I've tried, both in terms of performance on the pavement and performance on "my" gravel (which can vary from hard-packed sand that seems faster than pavement, to crap that'll break the axles on my vintage Toyota FJ40). It's the WTB Resolute. I have three gravel bikes. The setups vary, but some are 700c and some are 650b. The Resolute comes in both sizes and is exceptional in both.

As with most of my posts, this is purely anecdotal 'cuz I'm too old to care what power I'm putting out. I have a road I'm used to riding on my Open UP with my Resolutes at 20 mph or better, depending on wind. This morning I was trying out the same road on a new Open UPPER I just bought yesterday. It came equipped with Clement MSO tubeless 36 mm tires. The new bike was superb until I hit this familiar, 20 mph stretch of gravel. I couldn't handle it at above 17 mph and I had to back off to 15 mph in order not to freak out. It blew my mind how poorly the bike handled. But I've had these same tires before on the same bike on which I now cruise that section regularly at 20 mph. When I had those tires mounted on that bike, it was the same story. They were pretty much terrifying.

With gravel, your mileage may vary. Your gravel will certainly vary. Mine varies from one season to the next and one DOT maintenance cycle or hunting season to the next. My WTB Resolutes are consistently the best tires I've ridden ... both on the gravel and on the chip seal pavement that connects the gravel sectors.

I'd be very interested to see how they measure up to Tom's testing.

Stay aero my friends.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [bobby11] [ In reply to ]
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The WTB resolute looks interesting, but I don't think the 700x42 would fit in my Fuji frame when mounted on my current wheels (both sets are 21mm internal width). It looks like they plump up to over 43mm on a 19.5mm internal width rim in one of the reviews I found.

Of course, the 650Bx42 should fit just fine...one more reason for that 650B wheelset for me ;-)

Looking at it superficially, it most likely won't be super-fast rolling on pavement. That's just the nature of the larger knobs. I bet it works quite well in a wide range of off-pavement conditions though! Although, at that point I might be tempted to look at some dedicated MTB tires that appear similar...

edit: BTW, do you want to send that trash bag of tires you mention my way :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Aug 28, 18 14:28
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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How about the WTB Riddler 37c? I'm on G-One 35's at the moment but need more teeth in socal sandy corners without losing speed.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:

- Once you start adding tread texture beyond a file tread (i.e. going to a diamond-tread center and/or small knobs), you start slowing down the pavement performance by quite a bit. All of that additional rubber flexes on hard surfaces and causes energy losses.

- In researching off-pavement Crr measurements, the data I've seen shows it's pretty clear that once on the dirt, it's the compression of the surface that starts driving the rolling resistance. Measurements with MTBs shows that the lower the pressures that can be run, the lower the Crr for a particular setup. This means that for fast performance off-pavement, you want to run the widest tires you can fit at the lowest pressures that will protect your equipment from damage.

You know, this kind of confirms something in my mind. I've ridden a Trek Stache (29x3.0) four or five times now and it always "felt" crazy fast here on FL single track which is usually sandy, loose over hard and sometimes clay. Bontrager's Chupacabra tires aren't anything special from a construction standpoint: 120tpi nylon casing and a generic 50 or 60a rubber compound. However given the likely size of the contact path, they probably don't compress the surface much compared to a 29x2.0 XC tire.

This makes me really want to try out the Continental Speed Kings now in 27.5x2.2 on my "gravel" bike :)
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:

This makes me really want to try out the Continental Speed Kings now in 27.5x2.2 on my "gravel" bike :)

And yet ANOTHER reason for me to build up a 650B wheelset...not to mention that fact that they'll also fit in my old 26" full suspension MTB ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I'll confirm the Challenge Gravel Grinder 38s (120 TPI) roll very nice.
I got a pair of the Pro 36s (On Tom's advice), but they are a SOB to mount.
Now he tells me the standard 120 TPI are just as fast. I'd stick with those just for the ease of mounting. They also have a really good tread pattern.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [mjdwyer23] [ In reply to ]
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mjdwyer23 wrote:
How about the WTB Riddler 37c? I'm on G-One 35's at the moment but need more teeth in socal sandy corners without losing speed.


I have extensive experience on the Riddler 37c and about a week on the Gravel Grinder 38c TLR.
(At least in more CX conditions). For reference I ran 28c Schwalbe Pro One's in the BWR and typically run 30c G-One speeds as a mixed surface tire.

Each is currently mounted on otherwise identical Specialized Cruxes.
I also have 33c Vittoria Terreno Dry on a 3rd wheelset. I've put a few days on them.

Short answer: I do believe the Riddler will have the cornering grip you're looking for, but I fear you may lose a little speed. Depending on Tom's Gravel Grinder TLR vs. Latex tubed GG, one of those is probably your best bet for the best of both worlds.

  1. Riddler Measures at 37.8 and GG at 38.9 on 23mm internal width rims. (30 psi)
  2. Riddler is significantly heavier and stiffer. I never thought it was a slow rolling tire (given it's intended use), but after getting the GG TLR , I was blown away at how much lighter and more supple the GG is. Terreno's are in-between in terms of suppleness.
  3. Riddler is more confidence inspiring with corning traction because it is more predictable. It has 70% grip 100% of the time. ie on the CX course they lose grip a touch sooner, but have limited and controlled slippage when they do. GG tends to be an on/off tire. They hold 75% well for 90% of the time. This may be because of the larger side knobs and more pronounced gap between center tread and side knobs. However, touch the brakes and suddenly you're sliding on that diamond tread. Terreno Dry in 33c are way undergunned for grip, I'd arbitrarily rate them at 50%. For reference, I'd rate a Maxxis DHF mountain bike tire at 100% grip and a typical 28c Road tire at 30% grip. G-one Speed at 40%. I'd rate a Donnelly MXP CX tire at 80% grip 100% of the time. Arbitrarily, of course.
  4. On the CX course, GG has surprisingly good steep climbing traction. My opinion is that because the side knobs are further up the casing, they are helping to augment straight line traction. On the Riddler, the side knobs are further down the sidewall so you are relying more on the microknobs in a straight line.
  5. Riddler is wearing out fairly quickly. Both the center knobs and side knobs are shedding rubber. However, given the diamond pattern of the Gravel Grinders, I do not expect them to be a high-mileage tire either.



Choose:
Riddler: If you want ok rolling and confidence inspiring cornering grip on looser surfaces. My opinion is that this is best on routes with greater than 50% on dirt with a good bit of that dirt being technical (e.g. challenging corners). These are over-kill for primarily dirt roads.
Gravel Grinder TLR: if you want better rolling resistance at the expense of a little cornering grip. Arbitrary figure: Best on courses about 50% dirt with some technicality.
Terreno Dry: I don't know why. They don't roll particularly well nor grip particularly well. Maybe if you find the larger sideknobs on other options too "floaty" on pavement. Or something. I don't know. Maybe the larger sizes are better, but they weren't available at the time.


My opinion, anyway.

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
Last edited by: xtrpickels: Aug 29, 18 12:27
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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xtrpickels wrote:
mjdwyer23 wrote:
How about the WTB Riddler 37c? I'm on G-One 35's at the moment but need more teeth in socal sandy corners without losing speed.


I have extensive experience on the Riddler 37c and about a week on the Gravel Grinder 38c TLR.
(At least in more CX conditions). For reference I ran 28c Schwalbe Pro One's in the BWR and typically run 30c G-One speeds as a mixed surface tire.

Each is currently mounted on otherwise identical Specialized Cruxes.
I also have 33c Vittoria Terreno Dry on a 3rd wheelset. I've put a few days on them.

Short answer: I do believe the Riddler will have the cornering grip you're looking for, but I fear you may lose a little speed. Depending on Tom's Gravel Grinder TLR vs. Latex tubed GG, one of those is probably your best bet for the best of both worlds.

  1. Riddler Measures at 37.8 and GG at 38.9 on 23mm internal width rims. (30 psi)
  2. Riddler is significantly heavier and stiffer. I never thought it was a slow rolling tire (given it's intended use), but after getting the GG TLR , I was blown away at how much lighter and more supple the GG is. Terreno's are in-between in terms of suppleness.
  3. Riddler is more confidence inspiring with corning traction because it is more predictable. It has 70% grip 100% of the time. ie on the CX course they lose grip a touch sooner, but have limited and controlled slippage when they do. GG tends to be an on/off tire. They hold 75% well for 90% of the time. This may be because of the larger side knobs and more pronounced gap between center tread and side knobs. However, touch the brakes and suddenly you're sliding on that diamond tread. Terreno Dry in 33c are way undergunned for grip, I'd arbitrarily rate them at 50%. For reference, I'd rate a Maxxis DHF mountain bike tire at 100% grip and a typical 28c Road tire at 30% grip. G-one Speed at 40%. I'd rate a Donnelly MXP CX tire at 80% grip 100% of the time. Arbitrarily, of course.
  4. On the CX course, GG has surprisingly good steep climbing traction. My opinion is that because the side knobs are further up the casing, they are helping to augment straight line traction. On the Riddler, the side knobs are further down the sidewall so you are relying more on the microknobs in a straight line.
  5. Riddler is wearing out fairly quickly. Both the center knobs and side knobs are shedding rubber. However, given the diamond pattern of the Gravel Grinders, I do not expect them to be a high-mileage tire either.



Choose:
Riddler: If you want ok rolling and confidence inspiring cornering grip on looser surfaces. My opinion is that this is best on routes with greater than 50% on dirt with a good bit of that dirt being technical (e.g. challenging corners). These are over-kill for primarily dirt roads.
Gravel Grinder TLR: if you want better rolling resistance at the expense of a little cornering grip. Arbitrary figure: Best on courses about 50% dirt with some technicality.
Terreno Dry: I don't know why. They don't roll particularly well nor grip particularly well. Maybe if you find the larger sideknobs on other options too "floaty" on pavement. Or something. I don't know. Maybe the larger sizes are better, but they weren't available at the time.


My opinion, anyway.

Great side-by-side review. Thanks.

I love the GG as an all-around tire for my CX bike. As cross season approaches, I'm thinking of whether/when to switch back to a non-filetread. How do you think the GG would work as an early-season CX tire?
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I just threw a set of Snoqualmie Pass on my gravel bike... cushy and smooth.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [c.mont.811] [ In reply to ]
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c.mont.811 wrote:
I just threw a set of Snoqualmie Pass on my gravel bike... cushy and smooth.
I have the same tires. At 32 psi, they sort of hovercraft over chatter and roll surprisingly fast on pavement. I don't understand the RR test above for Compass tires above, these are fast tires. Also, mine have proven remarkably durable (knock wood).
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [hiro11] [ In reply to ]
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hiro11 wrote:
c.mont.811 wrote:
I just threw a set of Snoqualmie Pass on my gravel bike... cushy and smooth.
I have the same tires. At 32 psi, they sort of hovercraft over chatter and roll surprisingly fast on pavement. I don't understand the RR test above for Compass tires above, these are fast tires. Also, mine have proven remarkably durable (knock wood).

In my roller testing, the Snoqualmies rolled quite well...the Bon Jon Pass tire I had, not so much.

The BJP that Jarno at BRR tested also didn't appear to roll very well, so it's not like that's a "one-off" result...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
In my roller testing, the Snoqualmies rolled quite well...the Bon Jon Pass tire I had, not so much.

The BJP that Jarno at BRR tested also didn't appear to roll very well, so it's not like that's a "one-off" result...


Which was surprising to me as I went from the BJP to the Snoqualmies. I thought the BJP was the perfect crossover between road and gravel and did a whole slew of 100 mile road rides and brisk paced group rides on them and was very happy with them.

I need to take the Snoqualmies on one of the local coffee shop rides to see how they shake out!
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [c.mont.811] [ In reply to ]
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c.mont.811 wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
In my roller testing, the Snoqualmies rolled quite well...the Bon Jon Pass tire I had, not so much.

The BJP that Jarno at BRR tested also didn't appear to roll very well, so it's not like that's a "one-off" result...



Which was surprising to me as I went from the BJP to the Snoqualmies. I thought the BJP was the perfect crossover between road and gravel and did a whole slew of 100 mile road rides and brisk paced group rides on them and was very happy with them.

I need to take the Snoqualmies on one of the local coffee shop rides to see how they shake out!

It was surprising to me as well based on the construction and my experience with the Snoqualmies...and may say more about "batch to batch" variation on the Compass tires than anything else. Maybe the earlier batches were faster...and then something was changed?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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xtrpickels wrote:

Terreno Dry: I don't know why. They don't roll particularly well nor grip particularly well. Maybe if you find the larger sideknobs on other options too "floaty" on pavement. Or something. I don't know. Maybe the larger sizes are better, but they weren't available at the time.


I have been riding the 40C version all season. I've tried to give these tires a chance.
They just feel heavy, slow and I have not had any confidence in cornering.
In deep fresh gravel I outperformed my buddies who were on narrower tires, but any wider tire would probably do that.
They are not really bad, but they're definitely not great.
I wouldn't use the Terreno Dry 33C version for CX racing either. Donnelly MXP FTW.
Last edited by: NordicSkier: Aug 29, 18 15:22
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Oh man, I mounted a set of the Strada Bianca Pros yesterday and my hands are ruined today.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [alexZA] [ In reply to ]
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alexZA wrote:
Oh man, I mounted a set of the Strada Bianca Pros yesterday and my hands are ruined today.


Didn't you follow my tips for mounting those? I can usually do them by hand.

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6629362#p6629362

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, was about to reply to you on that thread. Thanks v much for the tips. Did it entirely by hand, but without the beer (because race weight), and it was brutal. They should be much easier now that they've been "stretched", but I'm still dreading a flat. I'm looking forward to the tubeless versions.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome feedback, I'll look into the GG's. Thanks!
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [mjp202] [ In reply to ]
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mjp202 wrote:


I love the GG as an all-around tire for my CX bike. As cross season approaches, I'm thinking of whether/when to switch back to a non-filetread. How do you think the GG would work as an early-season CX tire?


They are currently my plan for early season in Colorado which is consistently very dry and very bumpy... Heck that's most most of the Colorado Season.

I did some good cornering practice yesterday prior to junior's practice and was quite impressed with their ability to hold on grass at fairly high pressures (27 / 28.5psi on 38c tires). On par with an MXP / BOS and better than a PDX. With the improved rolling resistance and similar grip, I think they beat MXP and BOS in the dry.

On looser corners, like at our office practice course, they can be a bit floaty. A few times I wished they made a Baby Limus TLR 38c for the front, but frankly I was probably just being lazy.

On courses with decisive off-cambers or a bit of moisture I'll run MXP Tubulars (f/r)
On Mud Courses I'll run PDX (f) / BOS (r) Tubular combination.
Otherwise, my dry condition / rough course plan is currently the GG's (f/r).

(If only Donnelly made a Tubeless LAS with sideknobs... Maybe I can persuade Donn to make the DEN!)

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
Last edited by: xtrpickels: Aug 30, 18 14:14
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [alexZA] [ In reply to ]
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alexZA wrote:
Yes, was about to reply to you on that thread. Thanks v much for the tips. Did it entirely by hand, but without the beer (because race weight), and it was brutal. They should be much easier now that they've been "stretched", but I'm still dreading a flat. I'm looking forward to the tubeless versions.

IME, that's an important step...not to be missed ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:

The box came...by my "hand feel", the sidewalls don't appear to have much, if any, additional rubber on them...yesssss...

My hope is that these end up being the "Goldilocks" tire of the textured/treaded realm (i.e. a treaded tire that rolls on pavement as fast as other "smooth/file" offerings").

Of course, that would also bode well for the TLR version of the file tread Strada Bianca, especially in a 650B x 46 offering that has been touted. I may just need to finally put together a 650B wheelset so I can fit a tire that wide in my Fuji :-)

Hopefully that isn't the Challenge tire that Sven was using at DK. Didn't work out well for him. :)

I think you're spot on, Tom. Regarding slick vs a small knob tire (comparing a Gravel King Slick to a Gravel King Small Knob) i would go with the small knob about 99% of the time. I've seen slick tires take out/injure more gravel riders than aerobars, and i just don't feel like slick tires are faster on dirt/gravel. The knobs on the gravel kings seem to act like little shock absorbers. At BWR, i think you're right that maybe a slick would be a better choice based on the amount of pavement, but i haven't done it so i can't say for sure.

Do you think there is a point on gravel where the aero penalty of a wide tire negates the RR benefit?

At Gravel Worlds I chose to go with 32s since the gravel is really tiny on most of the course, and i knew there would be a lot of climbing (the 32 GKSK is light). I think i probably should have gone wider. A 35 or 38 probably would have been a better choice. The 43c gravel king (max 700c size on my Exploro) probably would have been overkill, IMO. It's heavier and must be less aero, but man... it FEELS fast and just floats over everything.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [rob_bell] [ In reply to ]
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rob_bell wrote:
Do you think there is a point on gravel where the aero penalty of a wide tire negates the RR benefit?
Of course. Even if rolling resistance keeps improving at wider and wider widths, the potential gains are bounded; you can never go below zero rolling resistance. But the weight and aerodynamic profile of a tire are unbounded, there's no limit to how high they can be as you keep making the tire wider and wider.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [HTupolev] [ In reply to ]
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HTupolev wrote:
rob_bell wrote:
Do you think there is a point on gravel where the aero penalty of a wide tire negates the RR benefit?
Of course. Even if rolling resistance keeps improving at wider and wider widths, the potential gains are bounded; you can never go below zero rolling resistance. But the weight and aerodynamic profile of a tire are unbounded, there's no limit to how high they can be as you keep making the tire wider and wider.

Uh, the aerodynamic profile is bound by what the bike frame can accommodate. Not sure what your point is here...
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [chrisgrigsby] [ In reply to ]
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chrisgrigsby wrote:
Uh, the aerodynamic profile is bound by what the bike frame can accommodate.
The question I was answering didn't constrain to a particular frame. And even in practical terms, it's easy to go quite wide; there are off-the-shelf bike frames designed to fit ~5" tires!
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [rob_bell] [ In reply to ]
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rob_bell wrote:
Do you think there is a point on gravel where the aero penalty of a wide tire negates the RR benefit?

Probably but it would be very difficult to quantify as "gravel" is such a variable surface and each course is unique in its composition.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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xtrpickels wrote:
mjp202 wrote:


I love the GG as an all-around tire for my CX bike. As cross season approaches, I'm thinking of whether/when to switch back to a non-filetread. How do you think the GG would work as an early-season CX tire?


They are currently my plan for early season in Colorado which is consistently very dry and very bumpy... Heck that's most most of the Colorado Season.

I did some good cornering practice yesterday prior to junior's practice and was quite impressed with their ability to hold on grass at fairly high pressures (27 / 28.5psi on 38c tires). On par with an MXP / BOS and better than a PDX. With the improved rolling resistance and similar grip, I think they beat MXP and BOS in the dry.

On looser corners, like at our office practice course, they can be a bit floaty. A few times I wished they made a Baby Limus TLR 38c for the front, but frankly I was probably just being lazy.

On courses with decisive off-cambers or a bit of moisture I'll run MXP Tubulars (f/r)
On Mud Courses I'll run PDX (f) / BOS (r) Tubular combination.
Otherwise, my dry condition / rough course plan is currently the GG's (f/r).

(If only Donnelly made a Tubeless LAS with sideknobs... Maybe I can persuade Donn to make the DEN!)

Thanks. Very consistent with my own experience. I'll give them a go for the first race of the season, assuming it stays relatively dry.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [rob_bell] [ In reply to ]
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rob_bell wrote:
Regarding slick vs a small knob tire (comparing a Gravel King Slick to a Gravel King Small Knob) i would go with the small knob about 99% of the time. I've seen slick tires take out/injure more gravel riders than aerobars, and i just don't feel like slick tires are faster on dirt/gravel. The knobs on the gravel kings seem to act like little shock absorbers. At BWR, i think you're right that maybe a slick would be a better choice based on the amount of pavement, but i haven't done it so i can't say for sure.

So, the Mavic Allroad 30/35C would be a bad choice for gravel?
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
rob_bell wrote:
Regarding slick vs a small knob tire (comparing a Gravel King Slick to a Gravel King Small Knob) i would go with the small knob about 99% of the time. I've seen slick tires take out/injure more gravel riders than aerobars, and i just don't feel like slick tires are faster on dirt/gravel. The knobs on the gravel kings seem to act like little shock absorbers. At BWR, i think you're right that maybe a slick would be a better choice based on the amount of pavement, but i haven't done it so i can't say for sure.


So, the Mavic Allroad 30/35C would be a bad choice for gravel?

My 2 cents is that everyone is going to have different preferences and different surfaces. For "Colorado Gravel", which tends to be a hard-packed brown road,slicks are fine. If you're surfing through deeper gravel, your experience may vary.

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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Following up for posterity:

It is unlikely I will race CX on the Gravel Grinder TLR's.
For mixed terrain training and "dorking around" they're a great, all-around, dry conditions tire.

However, when doing some hot-laps, they were just too skittish for me to comfortably push them hard.
Pressures needed to be over 30 psi for sufficient sidewall support, but this made it harder to access the sideknobs.

On hard, especially grass, cornering they still hook up great (with the higher pressures). But at race speeds on shallower corners, especially loose-over-hard, they had little traction and I felt myself unwilling to go as fast as otherwise possible. This lead to a lot of "catching on" on the straights.

I think this tire design (file tread with side knobs) may work better in 33c width because the narrower tire means the sideknobs are closer to the centerline.
Additionally, as a tubular more traction would be available with the possibility of lower tire pressures.

Final Update:
This weekend sums up my experience with the Gravel Grinder: 75% of the time they're 100% great.
I finished the last 400m of a new PR on a gravel climb with a flat rear tire. Fast enough for the PR, but...

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
Last edited by: xtrpickels: Sep 17, 18 8:53
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Are people running the standard Snoqualmies or the Extra Light?
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Maddog23] [ In reply to ]
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Maddog23 wrote:
Are people running the standard Snoqualmies or the Extra Light?

I recommend the standards. You only give up ~1W per tire, and the sidewalls have more rubber. To me, the better sidewall cut resistance and lowered sealant "bleed-through" are worth that...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [spntrxi] [ In reply to ]
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that def looks low. try something more like 80 or 85 if you're going to run those g-one speeds on pavement at your weight.
There's probably less than 6 watts difference between those tires, properly set up. those speeds were on the podium at Paris-Roubaix, they are fast on pavement.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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https://granfondo-cycling.com/the-best-gravel-tire/

This is the first real swing at it I've seen. I would really, really like to see the actual numbers, and I also want to see the sidewall puncture results, in part because at least one tire that has a reputation for being a bit fragile otherwise looks OK... and the winning tire, while it has a lot going for it, looks to have really flimsy sidewalls.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [thumper88] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, that's quite the feature. I would also love to see numbers. It's essentially a 6-10 rating system. This is one of the first times I have ever seen WTB tires measured against anything, even a ranking. WTB makes really nice tires and I would be pretty pumped to see them roll somewhat fast. The compound can't be much different, so the size difference (36 vs 42) might be where the numbers difference mostly happens. The G-One Bite looks even more tempting from this as well.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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I think its more numerically based, is the way to look at it... they use the top value achieved in each performance category as 100 percent in the bar chart, and then set the bars for rest of the tires at percentages of that.
Trying to come up vague ballpark -- and this is surely off -- I was thinking top Crr was about 20 watts, which would make each increment worth just two watts... even if I'm 50 percent off in the guess, there aren't huge differences between these, especially the top handful...
another clue is the handwritten tally sheet in the photo.... you can't really see the rows (which I assume is one per tire) or what the values are supposed to represent, but there is that whole column with numbers in the 19-20-ish range which smells like the wattage range these tires should be at.

I think one thing is pretty clear, this is not a guide to picking the right tire for Kanza, it is for gravel races that we see a lot of in, say, in the east, with hard pack, some scattered gravel, maybe a few serious patches, but then 15-20-30-40 miles of pavement.

The WTB iOS obviously super fast, but so is the compass, and I feel certain they're both too fragile, for miles and miles of the big stuff. From a practical standpoint... you may get away with it, but odds are working against you.

The Schwalbes are known to be more fragile (and THOUGHT to roll faster) than similar sized but chunkier items like the Gravel King. But that doesn't show up here very clearly and I'm thinking one reason is that they didnt include result from sidewall puncture testing. That pretty quickly could tell you what not to pick for Kanza.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [thumper88] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for sharing.

WTB Riddler is what is on my "Dirt and Trail" wheelset, which slots in under the CX stuff in terms of grip.
Also running G-One Speeds on my "Road and Dirt" Wheelset

The two Schwalbe point out the importance of casing / protection on rolling resistance.
The G-One Bite should have been slower based on tread pattern, but the casing more than made up for it.
I wish they would have accounted for these differences, but they seem to disregard.

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
Last edited by: xtrpickels: Nov 27, 18 11:47
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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G-one Speeds are freaking fast. I ran them at Battenkill, which has a lot of pavement and fast hardpack, and they had NO weaknesses.
And frankly did great in a couple of hard rock strikes... while I saw a number of people with punctured Gatorkskins, which I didnt think possible without some sort of atomic weapon.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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Hardpack gravel, loose gravel, higher volume trail/dirt.......these are the wheelsets before you even get to all the cyclocross wheelsets. Just know that somebody in this world understands you.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [thumper88] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting this. I've been tempted to try out a couple of these tires before and they provide you with some good info. I've been doing some simple testing of tires that I have and I have been a little surprised at the results. I have a G-One Allround on the back and it keeps testing just as fast as my road wheelset with 4000s and latex tubes, even at 25psi. I bought a G-One Speed 29x2.0 hoping it would fit in my stays and it did, at first, measuring 44 or 46mm on a 14mm internal rim. Unfortunately, when I set it up tubeless, it has grown to 48mm and now it will only clear the chainstays when the wheel is perfectly true and if you get out of the saddle it rubs. Which is a bummer because even with a butyl tube it felt super smooth on the back. My fork has a bit more clearance so it became my front tire and it is great as long as you don't need ANY side traction. I fell once when I tried to climb the side of a rut and it would not do it. At 25 psi it feels so much smoother and more comfortable than the Nano it replaced.
I am starting to prefer riding my 'gravel'ish bike even on the road because the G-One Speed/All-round combo seems to be (in my limited tests) as fast as gp4000s and the comfort and confidence on less that perfect pavement is no comparison in favor of the bigger tires. Especially when I ride in the dark, the bigger tires just roll over anything without pause.
I'm beginning to wonder if there is any reason to ride smaller tires outside of the bike leg of multi-sport races where high speed/aero is a factor. I really wish my converted cheap hybrid could run the 48mm tires front and back.
Can anyone report on how big the Speed or Allround get when on a wider rim? I just have old 14mm internal width rims and my Allround is 36mm wide/39 for the knobs.
Chad
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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cdw wrote:
Can anyone report on how big the Speed or Allround get when on a wider rim? I just have old 14mm internal width rims and my Allround is 36mm wide/39 for the knobs.
Chad

My G One Allround in 38/40 measures 41.5 mm on a 21 mm inner diameter Stan's rim around 30 psi after LOTS of use. The same tires measured 40.0 mm on a 22 mm inner diameter American Classic rim (less rim sidewall height on the Stans rim).
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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dangle wrote:
Hardpack gravel, loose gravel, higher volume trail/dirt.......these are the wheelsets before you even get to all the cyclocross wheelsets. Just know that somebody in this world understands you.


I appreciate your appreciation. Most people shake their head when they walk in my garage:
6 cx wheelsets (4 tubular),
2 "multisurface"
2 road (25c Turbo Cottons / Latex and 28c ProOne's Tubeless)
2 mountain bike sets.
Mostly i9 and Roval. Although my dirt and trail wheelset is a set of Stan's Grails that I've dented a half dozen times but still hold air. Mostly because the Switzerland Trail eats road wheels if you're going more than 10 mph.
(Good view of typical trail surface at 5:15 in this video)



(Particularly Rough Section)





More than anything, I don't like to speculate, I like to know from experience.
Even if I find something I like, I change it, just to know what something else is like.

I also have a shoe obsession...

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
Last edited by: xtrpickels: Dec 7, 18 9:24
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [thumper88] [ In reply to ]
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thumper88 wrote:
G-one Speeds are freaking fast. I ran them at Battenkill, which has a lot of pavement and fast hardpack, and they had NO weaknesses.
And frankly did great in a couple of hard rock strikes... while I saw a number of people with punctured Gatorkskins, which I didnt think possible without some sort of atomic weapon.

FWIW, If speed matters I go with the 28c ProOne. I hammered it at The Belgian Waffle Ride this year (and training leading up to it). Held up great.

G-One Speed is great if you want the (little) extra volume. It's also a bit more comfortable as an all-around or training tire and I tend to use it on a more daily basis.

I will say, I do not identify as a "gravel" cyclist. This means I probably do not make traditional choices and also use product outside of the typical usage range.

For example, The thought of DK... riding hundreds of miles on endless dirt roads ... just doesn't speak to me. Belgian Waffle Ride and Grinduro do (despite being polar opposite ends of the spectrum, they have contrasting sections). I'm more of a ride some road, then hop on this singletrack to the gravel bike path then cross the field because I've never seen that road over there before kinda guy. Variety and contrast are the spice of my riding life. Or maybe I have ADHD and can't cope with one surface for more than 30 miles...

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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I'm looking for a BWR tire for 2019.

First time doing the race. I've pretty much ruled out my CX bike as 42x11/36 is not enough gearing.
My roadie should just fit 28C tires.
Was thinking a Challenge Paris Roubaix.... but maybe something like the Pro One?

I've ridden gravel on 23C Conti 4000's before without issue and I'm a pretty good bike handler.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
I'm looking for a BWR tire for 2019.

First time doing the race. I've pretty much ruled out my CX bike as 42x11/36 is not enough gearing.
My roadie should just fit 28C tires.
Was thinking a Challenge Paris Roubaix.... but maybe something like the Pro One?

I've ridden gravel on 23C Conti 4000's before without issue and I'm a pretty good bike handler.


Check the thread on The BWR. Great advice from Tom and others in there. BWR SetUp Thread

I know Tom's a fan of the Challenge tires with a Latex tube. I'm sure they ride great. I'm used to tubeless and so went with the Pro One.

I wouldn't go smaller than 28c. Given the amount of road, I thought this was a good choice. Other will take a different approach. If I were doing the Wafer, with a higher dirt to road ratio, I might have gone with something a little bigger. I'm a good bike handler (relatively speaking, the Junior CX racers I coach crush me), so I wasn't worried about the 28c on the dirt sections and made the choice to go to the front of the group on the dirt because I both had the speed and it allowed me to pick my lines and not slam into unseen rocks. Perhaps I was lucky this year and next year I'll get a half dozen flats...

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
Last edited by: xtrpickels: Dec 7, 18 9:32
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks. Unfortunately, they don't make a Speed between the 1.5/38mm and the 2.0/50mm. A 1.75/44-45 would max out my frame clearance and provide some more volume. If I could make my ultimate tire, I would have a 45mm G-One with Speed center knobs and Allround side knobs. That tire would take care of about 90 percent of my riding and really add a bit of control when I venture off the beaten path into pseudo-mtb territory. I may try to Resolute next to see how that fits the bill.
Chad
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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FWIW, I'm only 135lbs, so I don't need the same suspension as much bigger riders.

My wife is doing the wafer, and my current tire of choice for her will be Strada Bianca 36C tires on her gravel bike. She currently has Maxxis Rambler's, but I think those are a bit knobby for a semi-road event.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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"Thanks. Unfortunately, they don't make a Speed between the 1.5/38mm and the 2.0/50mm. A 1.75/44-45 would max out my frame clearance and provide some more volume. If I could make my ultimate tire, I would have a 45mm G-One with Speed center knobs and Allround side knobs. That tire would take care of about 90 percent of my riding and really add a bit of control when I venture off the beaten path into pseudo-mtb territory. I may try to Resolute next to see how that fits the bill.
Chad "


Just based on that Gran Fondo magazine test, it sounds like you're making smart choice. The Resolute sounds about as close to the ideal version of the Speed you describe as anything out there. Sounds if anything slightly faster than any Schwalbe that isn't Liteskin, although it does sound a little fragile. Prob comparable to the Liteskin in that regard.
Last edited by: thumper88: Dec 7, 18 9:43
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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cdw wrote:
Thanks. Unfortunately, they don't make a Speed between the 1.5/38mm and the 2.0/50mm. A 1.75/44-45 would max out my frame clearance and provide some more volume. If I could make my ultimate tire, I would have a 45mm G-One with Speed center knobs and Allround side knobs. That tire would take care of about 90 percent of my riding and really add a bit of control when I venture off the beaten path into pseudo-mtb territory. I may try to Resolute next to see how that fits the bill.
Chad

The WTB Riddler 45 sounds kinda like what you're talking about.

I wouldn't consider the Allround to have 'side knobs' though. The 38/40 Allround on a modern rim with a 23 mm inner should get you really close to 43 mm and let you play around with the low pressures more since you won't have to worry about the side folding over as much as you would on a 14 mm inner diameter rim.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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Oh man, I think those numbers match mine pretty well except I'm down to only one tubular CX wheelset since I have found a couple tubeless combos that I can't burp in the low 20 psi range no matter how hard I try. I built a rack that holds 10 wheelsets and there's still a disc and H3+ leaned up against the wall.

Not sure how much I would enjoy anything but a mountain bike on that Switzerland Trail. With the scenery, I would want to be able to look up once in a while.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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cdw wrote:
Thanks. Unfortunately, they don't make a Speed between the 1.5/38mm and the 2.0/50mm. A 1.75/44-45 would max out my frame clearance and provide some more volume. If I could make my ultimate tire, I would have a 45mm G-One with Speed center knobs and Allround side knobs. That tire would take care of about 90 percent of my riding and really add a bit of control when I venture off the beaten path into pseudo-mtb territory. I may try to Resolute next to see how that fits the bill.
Chad

Just ride an Allround on the trainer for a bit...

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
FWIW, I'm only 135lbs, so I don't need the same suspension as much bigger riders.

My wife is doing the wafer, and my current tire of choice for her will be Strada Bianca 36C tires on her gravel bike. She currently has Maxxis Rambler's, but I think those are a bit knobby for a semi-road event.

I think this sounds like an appropriate plan, especially if she is comfortable / confident on them.

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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That would probably work...except that I don't own a trainer. :)
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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xtrpickels wrote:
NordicSkier wrote:
FWIW, I'm only 135lbs, so I don't need the same suspension as much bigger riders.

My wife is doing the wafer, and my current tire of choice for her will be Strada Bianca 36C tires on her gravel bike. She currently has Maxxis Rambler's, but I think those are a bit knobby for a semi-road event.


I think this sounds like an appropriate plan, especially if she is comfortable / confident on them.

She is not a confident rider off pavement.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [chrisgrigsby] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Tom, any huge revelations as of late? I picked up a set of the new Rene Herse 700x42 Hurricane Ridge knobbies with the Endurance casing for my Enve G23s. They are undeniably comfortable, and the traction is unrealā€”both on and off pavementā€”but I definitely feel more ā€œdragā€, either from the weight or the rolling resistance. I rode one of my typical loops today on my Enve 3.4ARs with Hutchinson Sector 28s and was about 1.5-2mph faster. Hard to say how much was the tire and how much was the aero wheel profile. I was also surprisingly comfortable on the 28s but they are obviously no match for the looser gravel. But this has me wondering if I should swap the knobbies on my G23s for the Snoqualmie Pass and wait til Winter to swap back.
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:


The box came...by my "hand feel", the sidewalls don't appear to have much, if any, additional rubber on them...yesssss...

My hope is that these end up being the "Goldilocks" tire of the textured/treaded realm (i.e. a treaded tire that rolls on pavement as fast as other "smooth/file" offerings").

Of course, that would also bode well for the TLR version of the file tread Strada Bianca, especially in a 650B x 46 offering that has been touted.


Tom, have you had a chance yet to evaluate the vulcanized TLR Strada Bianca?

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Mar 31, 20 7:36
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Re: Paging Tom A...Gravel Tire Rolling Resistance??? [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
Tom A. wrote:


The box came...by my "hand feel", the sidewalls don't appear to have much, if any, additional rubber on them...yesssss...

My hope is that these end up being the "Goldilocks" tire of the textured/treaded realm (i.e. a treaded tire that rolls on pavement as fast as other "smooth/file" offerings").

Of course, that would also bode well for the TLR version of the file tread Strada Bianca, especially in a 650B x 46 offering that has been touted.


Tom, have you had a chance yet to evaluate the vulcanized TLR Strada Bianca?

I haven't...but, mostly because they never came out with the 650Bx46 version :-(

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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