Doing them to get used to the feeling of running when your legs are fatigued is a bad idea. You just run slow with bad form, in most cases. Running after a bike is still running and your race run-speed will be determined by your run fitness and your bike pacing. Now, if you are doing the Olympics and need to crank out a low 5 min mile right out of the blocks then you might do a bit of transition practice, but that means you only need to run about 5 minutes after riding. Even then, in the midst of training it may not be that helpful, again because your legs are tired.
Stringing together runs and rides is a good way to maximize available training time, but do your run first and then ride.
Chad

I think bricks are convenient and help with frequency.
I don’t think they are a tremendously valuable “key workouts.”

That said, a couple of times a year I will do: a 30 minute bike followed by a 18 mile run (Ironman) , or a 100 mile bike followed by a 4 mile run (Ironman), or 2 hr bike followed by an 8 mile tempo run (70.3).

I think this idea is picking up momentum, especially in the longer events. I think Endurance Nation has completely eliminated bricks from their half and full plans. Is there some benefit--probably, but the risk of injury rises significantly. Most of what they write says that poor run performance is typically a lack of fitness OR poor pacing/nutrition on the bike.

I disagree with the lack of value. I'm focused on 70.3 right now and I can tell you that 2 hours @ 83% FTP (Polar Bear on TR) followed directly by 7 miles at goal pace helped me tremendously. I did it once during a final build (3 weeks out) and had tons of confidence knowing exactly what I could push on the bike and come off fresh.

I am surprised to hear you say that. I know you coach a lot of fast guys so obviously what you do works.

I understand that what works for one person not for another, but I pretty much only run after bike sessions, 4 times a week. I usually have the fastest run in my AG, and have finished first or second in my last few IM's. Seems like most people can run off the bike in the race ok for the first half, and then they fall apart. The session that I think has let me even or neg split IM runs, is Saturday long ride with a 30-50min t run, then Sunday do another ride with some efforts and then the long run. Feels like the long run is starting on mile 10. Similarly, off the bike I am already warmed up and right our of the driveway doing quality. I only run 30-45 miles a week and want them all to count.

I should add that in open running races I can't do sh!t anymore. When Istarted in IM 10 years ago and did not train this way I was still quick over 10k, but now 95% of miles are off the bike and Z2, I got nada in open running.

Seems like most people can run off the bike in the race ok for the first half, and then they fall apart

I only run 30-45 miles a week and want them all to count.

the driveway doing quality. I only run 30-45 miles a week and want them all to count. ......I should add that in open running races I can't do sh!t anymore....... did not train this way I was still quick over 10k, but now 95% of miles are off the bike and Z2

I run after just about every ride. I like to run after riding.

Sometimes I ride for 45-60 min before a run just to warm up.

I would like to know, how many of you guys have ran a sub 3 hour IM marathon or are IM World Champions?
I guess I just have a different way of training.

I run after just about every ride. I like to run after riding.

Sometimes I ride for 45-60 min before a run just to warm up.

In the context of my original question, I'm more than content with that answer being zero. I asked about, and really only care about, Olympic distance events. I presume there's a substantially different training strategy between the two distances.

Edit: said differently, I'd be much more interested to know who runs sub 38min 10k off the bike, rather than who has even completed an IM.

I don’t run unless I do a bike first.

I run sub 40 min...not at 38 yet.

But I do believe the running off the bike consistently has helped.

zedzded wrote:

I don't do bricks, I need to though. Just hard with kids sometimes. What's the science behind running off the bike? Got a few mates who practically halved their run volume, only ran off the bike, rode lots and their running went through the roof.

I am familiar with your situation. I also have young kids (5 & 3).

I cannot speak to the science...but I can speak to the results.

I just celebrated my 1 year anniversary of racing triathlon on the 12th. I started out running about two years before that and completed 3 marathons along the way. 3:54, 3:53, 3:31...as you can see, I was not very fast.

Over the last year my coach has worked with my on finding a regiment and training amount that works for me and my personal commitments (family, work, etc.). I have settled on 8-12 hours of working out a week...that means we have to make everything count! We have been focusing on building mostly my bike power, and increase my running speed. I already had a reasonable endurance base from the distance running...and to be honest...some natural ability to endure that I have always had. The swim is only happening 1 day a week on Sundays. That is our family swim day. We train with swim bands 7 days a week as well to keep my shoulders strong. The goal is to maintain my swim fitness and speed. I was never a swimmer growing up and really am still learning. I swim 1500 meters in the range of 23-27 mins depending on wet suit legality and if I am trying to do too much which leads to me being slower.

Anyway, back the the bricks. The last few races my coach has had me hammer the bike and "let the run take care of itself". Over the course of a few months of consistent bricks I have been able to get to sub 40 min 10k's off of the bike (I have done three olys and one sprint in the last two months). I ease into the runs and negative split them. I want to be able to out sprint someone at the end it that is what it comes down to. I have also noticed a correlation between my cadence and my running. The higher the cadence I hold the better I am running off of the bike. I have been shooting for 92-97 on my cadence. If I am in the 80's my run is typically shit.

I don't know if any of this is helpful. I know its a buttload of rambling. Let me sum it up:

• Make the time you have count. Higher intensity is probably a good thing if you have a base and have some injury resistance. I am finding more and more that my body can take a whole hell of a lot more training without getting injured.
• Do things that you are going to be doing in a race. Bricks off of the bike are an example of that. I know that Sebastian Kienle's favorite workout is R/B/R/B/R/B/R. He doesn't give details...but I am sure its epic and useful. In fact, a very good pro who belongs to my local tri club only works out 10 hours a week and is a sub 4 hour HIM guy. He told me that its the long hard efforts that you put in that will teach you about yourself and give the most gains. The short little 45 min workouts are not worth as much...but they do MAINTAIN fitness
• Becoming an EXPERT in one sport is much harder than becoming above average in all three. I like to do a focus on either the bike or the run...but do the brick. For example, today was interval training where I went 120-130% of FTP for 12 intervals and followed up my workout with stride work and zone 2 running for 1 hour. Another type of workout that is assigned is say a 2.5 hour bike followed by a tempo run (I believe I am using that term correctly) where I am running my HIM race pace for 40-70 mins.

Anyway, I hope this helps.

I try to do at least 2 brick sessions per week. Specifically when I train for Olympic Distance tris, these sessions prove to be a key to get used to the feeling off jelly legs off the bike. I would recommend getting the brick sessions to simulate race conditions as close as possible. That means starting to run off the bike immediately (within a couple of minutes). Lingering around reduces the effect of jelly legs, which is the whole point of doing bricks.