Has anyone seen these (new?) tires yet?

Has anyone seen these (new?) tires yet? Sounds like they are just coming out for the Tour de France being only a few weeks away. From the characteristics with a thinner tread, it sounds basically like a TT with 4000 S2 profile? But only 25mm version. Price is high though, 59€ per tires when you can easily find 69€ for a set of 2x4000SII including butyl tubes.

First noticed here in Europe:
https://www.bike24.com/p2279629.html


Description of Continental Grand Prix 4000 RS Folding Tire - 25-622 - Tour de France Edition
In a limited special edition for the Tour de France. The powerful tyre in the field, faster, with a thinner tread and lower weight than the standard GP 4000 S II model.
The focus of the GP4000RS is: speed! Due to less rubber on the tread the tire is faster than the standard one and in total 10g lighter!

The GP4000 is the reference tire in the road bike market and has gone through numerous stages of evolution. The proven aspects of the 4000 remain unchanged. Vectran breaker for unsurpassed puncture protection, advanced BlackChili compound for low rolling resistance and sensational grip, and handmade in Germany of course.

They made them a few years back. It's a GP4000 with thinner tread, so very similar to a GPTT or Force or Attack.

BTW, I bought a Force/Attack combo recently and was quite impressed with the low weight of the 23mm Attack, ~170g vs 220g for the Force. And it isn't a small tire either, it measures a bit wider than the 23 Michelin Power Comp. Also it now has tread grooves positioned the right way for aero performance. I haven't tested it for Crr but it's probably as good as the GPTT and maybe better.

Is there any testing on the newest Attack that you're aware of? I kind of want to use that tire for my front wheel because in theory you'd think it would be more aero than the TT and better Crr than the 4000, but it seems to test so poorly in previous versions.

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

The prior version tested very well in the tunnel. I'm not aware of any testing of the new version but I intend to take it to the tunnel this year along with one other tire. BRR should have a new CRR test sometime soon (hopefully) on the 23mm Attack which should give you some confidence.

The prior version tested very well in the tunnel. I'm not aware of any testing of the new version but I intend to take it to the tunnel this year along with one other tire. BRR should have a new CRR test sometime soon (hopefully) on the 23mm Attack which should give you some confidence.

i dispute this. i know it's heresy to contest the notion that the 4000 doesn't cut through the wind like an SR71, but i don't see it.

paul lew is fond of pointing out that it's systems that matter, and that a tire has to have a particular, precise relationship to the rim for it to be aerodynamic (and, according to paul, a slower wheel/tire might be the faster wheel on a different frame).

swiss side's ballard is a fan of the 4000 but i believe one test swiss side touted from a few years ago found that the 4000 wasn't even the fastest continental tire on its wheel (aerodynamically).

yes, FLO likes it, but FLO didn't test it against many tires and it didn't test but marginally above the bontrager r4.

conti itself said they didn't consider aerodynamics at all when making that tire, as i remember.

i have rims that have an inside bead width of 17mm to 24mm. based on lew's comments, no way can the 4000 be just "the fastest tire" across these wheels.

accordingly, and while that tire is a great tire, good rolling resistance, good price, good puncture resistance, it doesn't raise the dead. so, no, absent a lot more than what i've seen i don't stipulate that the 4000 is a "more aero tire" regardless of what the prevailing wisdom is. it is on certain wheels, of given widths, in certain tests. otherwise i think its reputation is half earned and half urban myth.

I do recall that the aerodynamic properties of the GP4000S II were an accident but it was an accident that prompted many wheel manufacturers to design around that tire and at least one tire manufacturer (Schwalbe) to investigate the effect of tread patterns on aerodynamics (Schwalbe Ironman). WRT Swisside, the fastest tire was an Attack put on backwards. However, the margin of drag reduction versus an Attack run forwards or a GP4000S was rather small.

BTW, Flo tested against more tires than anyone else I'm aware of!!!! https://flocycling.com/aero_tire_study.php

I count twenty tires.

I do recall that the aerodynamic properties of the GP4000S II were an accident but it was an accident that prompted many wheel manufacturers to design around that tire and at least one tire manufacturer (Schwalbe) to investigate the effect of tread patterns on aerodynamics (Schwalbe Ironman). WRT Swisside, the fastest tire was an Attack put on backwards. However, the margin of drag reduction versus an Attack run forwards or a GP4000S was rather small.

BTW, Flo tested against more tires than anyone else I'm aware of!!!! https://flocycling.com/aero_tire_study.php

I count twenty tires.

thx. i didn't see that. i saw another one from FLO, but not that. you realize that, while very marginal, the schwalbe outperformed the 4000 on that, yes? until you got to 12.5°. and you've also seen all the data on how, past 12.5°, you're pretty much no longer in a race conditions you'll see more than 2 or 3 percent of the time. so, if on THAT graph you're looking for the fastest tire, the 4000 is the fastest tire by far in conditions that you'll almost never see.

which, again, isn't to say the 4000 is anything other than a great tire. and i'm sure by the end of this thread i'll have said (according to some people, who will no doubt fail to read the thread) that the tire is shitsville.

but look at the post to which i originally responded. what i'm saying is, no, i'm unwilling just to stipulate to the 4000's ubiquitous aeroness.

Are you looking at the 23C or 25C GP4K?...'cuz by my eye, the 23 is basically tied at 5deg and below, and then beats the 23C Schwalbe One above that.

Of course, once you add in the Crr effects (see the other Flo interactive chart I linked to above), it's not even close. Both the 25C AND 23C GP4K handily beat the Schwalbe by ~3-4W (for front wheel alone) across the board.

So...the point isn't that the GP4000S is THE lowest drag tire out there. However, it IS pretty darned fast in that sense, even in regards to tires that came out AFTER it and blatantly copied some of its aero "secret sauce" (accidental "sauce", or not).

Again, the reason it's held up as a default "hard to beat" choice, especially if no other data is present, is because of the COMBINATION of pretty damned good aero, pretty low Crr, AND having better than normal (for fast tires) durability. It's that simple.

Anyway, the post you were responding to merely said the GP4000S performed really well in wind tunnel tests. It does. It may not be THE best, but it's close enough that it's other properties (including price) make it somewhat of a "gold standard", especially for long-course, age-group triathlons.

What are your thoughts on doing a VE test swapping a GP TT and an Attack between the front and rear wheels? I'd have to check my weight distribution, but assuming it's 50/50 wouldn't this be a valid approach to teasing out the aero differences between the tires as the crr of the system wouldn't change? Or would it change since the drive forces are being put through the rear wheel (which could make the TT look even worse as a front tire choice)?

Hopefully Zipp has improved the compound that they use in their tires. Historically they have rolled slow.

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/...tangente-course-2017

Maybe Zipp can coax Hutchinson into doing a production run with their new 11Storm compound?

what i'm saying is, i find it hard to believe that the tire performs well de facto. i'm sure it does perform well in certain circumstances, but if you place that tire on rims that have different inside bead distances, the tire will change shape every time. and depending on the rim you stick it in, it's going to perform better or less well.

again - 3rd time in 3 posts - i'm not saying the tire is not a great tire. i'm not saying anything about rolling resistance, price, availability, sex appeal, or whether it smells better than other tires in its competitive set. i just am pushing back on the post to which i replied, which seems to assert that this is a de facto superior tire aerodynamically (to other tires, i assume), without any qualification.

for example, i just put a tubeless zipp tire on a tubeless zipp aero rim yesterday, and was happily surprised that it goes on more easily than most tube tires. this instantly makes that a combo worth considering, as i note the crr of tubeless tire after tubeless tire.

so, i don't know, but must assume that zipp is making tires that perform well with its rims aerodynamically.

i'm just not willing to stipulate that the conti beats everything aerodynamically. value? all things considered? most of the time? probably so. but, aerodynamically? it's certainly the equal of most tires most of the time at 10 degrees and below, but on the fatter rims i'd prefer to ride? maybe they are?

Well...just to make sure I wasn't missing something...I went back and looked at the post to which you were replying to, and they were actually discussing the original 22C Attack model, not the GP4K...and there was nothing in there about it being "superior" to other tires, just that it had "tested well".

You might want to make sure you aren't knocking down straw men here ;-)




I'm not sure what this has to do with what you say you're only talking about above (aero performance), but what exactly is it you are "noting" about the Crr of "tubeless tire after tubeless tire"?

From what I can see, aside from one fairly fast-wearing exception (which happens to be the ONLY tubeless tire currently constructed similar to a high quality clincher, or "open tubular), basically all of the road tubeless offerings still can't hold a candle Crr-wise to high quality non-tubeless clincher models running latex tubes (don't forget to take into account that Jarno tests with butyl tubes, and thus his non-tubeless results have a 2-3W bias high in that respect).




Maybe...maybe not. I know for a fact that the original prototypes for the Tangente Course and Speed models had more of a parabolic shape to them than what was eventually put into production. That shape worked GREAT aerodynamically (and, ironically for this discussion, was basically patterned on the shape of a GP4K), but it had the downside of resulting in higher Crr (due to the extra tread thickness in the center) along with it garnering some adverse feedback from test riders about the handling effects (too much "tip in"). The tire was basically "detuned" aerodynamically to address those short-comings. So, to imply that they are making the aerodynamically "best" tires for their wheels is most likely a stretch. I'm sure they work quite well with their wheels, but I don't think absolute best aerodynamic performance was the design driver for their tire products.



The ironic thing is that the aero rims which the Conti models like the Attack and GP4K don't perform on very well are older, narrower models. Conti tires tend to run "oversize", and it's actually the newer, wider models of aero wheels that match up better (as long as folks don't go overboard on the GP4K sizes, and put 25s or 28s on a wide rim...and then start getting tire widths into the "gravel width" range ;-) Put a 23C GP4K on something like a Hed Jet+ rim and it will widen out to ~26mm, or more!

point taken - certainly - on which tire we're talking about here. i jumped to a conclusion.

but on the assertion, what does this mean: "The prior version tested very well in the tunnel." just, that sentence. if you say that, without qualification, that's like saying 292mm spokes fit very well. fit what very well? they certainly fit some wheels well, but it depends on the rim, the hub, and the lacing.

Oh...and what about the question about tubeless Crr? What are you "seeing"?

Description of Continental Grand Prix 4000 RS Folding Tire - 25-622 - Tour de France Edition
In a limited special edition for the Tour de France. The powerful tyre in the field, faster, with a thinner tread and lower weight than the standard GP 4000 S II model.
The focus of the GP4000RS is: speed! Due to less rubber on the tread the tire is faster than the standard one and in total 10g lighter!

The downer is that it's only being offered in a 25mm version whereas a 23mm would be much better suited as a front tire.

I would like to see a 24mm GPS 4000 SII

Not sure if this test has been posted; looks good
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/...nd-prix-4000-rs-2018