I am 181 with long legs and arms and rode 58cm road bikes for years and have now gone to 56 to be more aggressive. Always ridden a medium tri bike since taking up tris. I have never seen anyone shorter than about 6'2" ride a 60cm frame which is well in the large zone.

What saddle did they have you on? 6 mm in front of the bottom bracket isn't 82 degrees for any of the saddles I use.

52 mm drop seems pretty pedestrian for a saddle height that high.

B16? Felt hasn't made a B16 in many years. DId you mean IA 16? If so, something is amiss because the IA 16 isn't even close to long enough for what the Guru spit out.

That frame reach is longer than any frame on the market. I think your saddle was too steep.

Is pad reach to the edge of the pad or the center of the pad?

I've seen a number of Guru fits that have a picture like that. Do you have any side pictures? That picture from the front is utterly worthless.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Thanks for the response, here's my answers:


Saddle was an ISM Racing (they said it was the closer to the ISM Prologue I have).

Don't know about the 52mm drop...

B16 was the output. I know it is old, but that was the only 561x461 listed in it... it is in this link too https://www.slowtwitch.com/stackreach/

If the saddle was too steep, what now? Should I repeat the fit?

Pad reach to the edge or center... again don't know... I will ask. Should be the center.

No side pictures... I thought I was going to get that too.

Yeah, that is why I'm looking for perhaps a 56... I currently ride a 52 with a 13mm stem, and it is not long enough. 52 since my inseam is 0.77 m, or 30.3 inches.

Dan usualy says that if you only get 1(or even 0! and have to add a pretty special stem to get results) bike at the stack and reach database something is wrong.

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede

From what I can tell, your fitter made two major mistakes that make your recommendations nonsensical. The first one is that the fitter let the athlete take charge of the fit too much and let the saddle come way too far forward. The ISM Racing is a stub-nosed saddle and it has to be set up a couple of cm behind the bottom bracket. Going forward with that saddle to +6 mm in front of the bottom bracket is a saddle position that many bikes - such as those with a 78 degree neutral seatpost angle - can't support. The other consequence of going that far forward is that it's created a scenario where your armpads are so far forward that your bike options are unnecessarily limited.

This is a mistake I've made before. This is a mistake my fitters have made before. And it's a problem you can fix with some math (assuming the position is, otherwise, pretty good).

I think every good fitter using a fit bike has created a saddle position that's too steep - if not on a tri bike fit, then for sure on a road bike fit. So this is forgiveable (we have a competitor that uses a fit bike, provides ZERO fit coordinates, and writes down a list of bikes that supposedly fit on a post-it note and those bikes often have no geometric relation to each other and his customers have no idea how poor that process is or his fits are - so don't be too hard on your fitter because at least they put their fit coordinates out there to be scrutinized).

The second mistake is the fit photos aren't useful. There is no excuse not to provide fit photos showing a side profile while in motion. That front-facing photo while you're in the middle of a conversation is useless and indicates the fit software was used sloppily. Without any fit photos, it's impossible to know whether your fit is actually any good. That 52 mm drop, while on the smaller side, might be absolutely appropriate. Without photos, it's impossible to tell.

Fit photos are more important, by far, than body geometry measurements (which you also don't have). I've seen a number of fits that have good body geometry measurements that, because the acceptable ranges are so big or marker placement was poor, was actually a terrible fit once the fit photos/video were analyzed.

Those two mistakes tell me that your fit is likely not all that great. Your fitter may be very good, but the fit is not for whatever reason.

Let's assume your position, outside of being too far forward, is otherwise pretty decent. You report a pad stack of 677 and a pad reach of 500. If that pad reach is to the middle of the pad, you can subtract 40-45 mm to get to the pad edge (which is a better measurement of position in my opinion). So now you're at 677 and 455.

The saddle needs to come back 25 mm and that brings the cockpit back another 25 mm, so you're at a pad reach of 430.

Since you pulled the saddle back 25 mm, you need to lower it a bit as well - let's say 5 mm - to maintain a similar saddle height. If the saddle drops 5 mm, the cockpit should drop the same, so now we have a 672 mm armpad stack and a 430 mm armpad reach.

Using our internal fit tool that measures to the armpad edge, I've attached the resulting report.

Understand, these recommendations are based on several major assumptions that may not be true: 1) your initial fit is good, just too far forward and 2) the changes I've made won't be destructive. Some of the bikes listed will support a steeper saddle position and a more forward armpad position, so you may very well find that you don't have to go as far back as I did in my math. I've also made sure the bike choices provide you the opportunity to lower the cockpit, as I suspect a 52 mm drop might not be as low as you can reasonably go.

Our fit report also includes bike photos and details of each bike, but I had to only provide the first page due to Slowtwitch only allowing attachments of 250kb or less.

All of this is intended as a thought exercise since I can't see whether your fit is of any quality, so please consider the recommendations list with a grain of salt.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

One other note - those stack and reach ranges listed do not include possible stem changes are possible alternative configurations (such as armpads mounted directly on the base bar and an extension undermount - etc.). One of the reasons armpad stack and reach numbers aren't reported by vendors is because there can be reasonable disagreement on two points:

• How much adjustment is possible on a bike - do we consider only stock parts, etc.?
• How much adjustment is reasonable on a bike - just because a bike can support 10 cm or pedestals, for example, does that mean we should consider that a good fit?

We tend to be pretty conservative on these points and let the fitter consider possible adjustments based on the circumstance and budget of the fit customer.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

the biggest 'wtf' moment is a recommendation to a bike thats not even made anymore?!! I ride an adamo racing saddle and im 2 or 3cm behind the bottom bracket from memory. And i thought i rode very forward/steep....+6 is out there!

Listen to Trent.

But my $.02... a size 60 bike is usually for people that are like 6'4" and not 5'8". People your height should be using a 54 as the start point. Maybe a 56 due to reach requirements. No on a 58 and no on a 60. A size 60 is basically an XL or XXL bike.

Heights just one part of the equation but generally a big one. I get you have long torso, short legs so your needs skew towards reach over stack but you wouldn't even be able to stand over the frame of a size 60 bike.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Aerobar package with a DFU is usually the old Zipp Vuka Clip, so 120mm long armrests. I don't see anything to indicate that this store would have chosen to do something different. Thus we end up with pad x rear of 440.

Still looking at a very high y/x ratio for someone with a long torso. If he does indeed have a long torso, saddle is high if that is the case. And the saddle-bars reach means that either he is crunched or actually not long torso. There is a lot of conflicted info out of this fit.

The b16 is still available overseas. Same frame as the current b14 but I think 105 spec (maybe something else).

Yeah, but 60 is out of the question now. I will look for a 56 or 58 (if the brand is "small" fitted) based on all the responses.

Wow! Thanks for all the info and recommendations. I love those Felt IA10s!

For starters I have asked the fitter to send me my "second best" fit that was recorded in the session. I think that was done with a 79 degree seat post angle, and maybe seeing those numbers can help me out better. The power did not go down with that, only a bit of confort within the hip area. I felt it was more closed that way.

The 52mm I think was the response to a specific problem we discussed, me getting tired of looking out front on the TT position. It is not that bad, I can manage a 70.3 but I'm starting to train for my first Ironman in Cozumel next November. The second position was not that bad in those terms.

Would it help if I took my body measurements with something like this? https://www.competitivecyclist.com/...itCalculatorBike.jsp

I can take more measurements with a calculator like this: https://www.competitivecyclist.com/...itCalculatorBike.jsp

But, I'm pretty sure about the long torso. I was a swimmer and my upper size in almost every brand is a Large. Pants and shorts are always Medium... but yeah, I made some measurements before. 0.77m inseam (30"), for a 1.74 m (5'9") guy, is a long torso.

Yes it is. Generally I'd expect that inseam to go with a saddle height more like 680mm, unless they found you some extraordinarily short cranks.
So you can see why I felt there was a contradiction.

Knocking 50mm out of the pad Y (to correspond to dropping the saddle) would make a big difference to the bikes you're looking for. We'd now be talking about frame sizes that don't seem so outlandish for your height. And you would have more options.

Right. I will be looking for something around 56 I guess... now what brand? and the money! LOL

Using Trents workings about setback and Pad X, plus what I said about lower saddle and bars gives this estimated position and some bike options

This is great info thanks!

I'm confused, Trent's analysis resulted in a 56 Felt IA, and yours tells me 51? even shorter than the 52 I currently ride..?

Because I searched for a bike 50mm lower and 15mm further back than he did.
Thanks to allowing for a lower saddle height and the length of the zipp armrests that were most likely used on the DFU.

That you have a 52 doesn't necessarily mean much. Do you know the reach of the frame?
The IA has quite high stack bars, you would be on a 54 with different bars

Not to hijack the thread, but why do you think that the back of the pad is a better spot for measurement? Sure, it's a tiny bit simpler to measure. But center of pad will eliminate pad length as a variable that might cause confusion?

The center of the pad would make sense if rider's were determining elbow placement based on the entire pad, but in my experience elbow placement is based on where the edge of the pad is.

While that can be confusing considering Trek, Cervelo, and Felt publish their armpad ranges based on the middle of the pad, I think edge of the pad (which is what Retul measures) is a more accurate contact point measurement. You're more likely to have variance from bike to bike using the center of the pad and that defeats the purpose of fit coordinates in the first place.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Ah! there you go. My current bike is a Felt S22 2012 model, with a 13mm stem instead of the original 80mm one. Listed in Felt's database as a 502 stack and 407 reach frame.

http://2012.feltracing.com/USA/2012/TT-TRI/TT-TRI-Series/S22.aspx

With which aerobars? How far are the pads setback?

gotta love voice to txt

You sound like a good candidate for a P4 :)

Have edited. That was my tablet deciding it knows better than I do. You would think that with the number of times I've typed 'aerobars' all my devices would be familiar with the word.

It is the original aerobar, listed in the specs (Felt TT/Tri aero base bar & ƒ bend tri-position clip on extensions)

How do I measure the setback?

P4? why?

Hi Trent! Do you think it is worth going to another fit session? I found someone in my city does Retul

I honestly don’t know. It seems very easy to find “certified” fitters that aren’t very good. I would ask the board as a whole for options and go there.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

I would go to Trishop or another place I was recommended last month when I did Oceanside 70.3, but unfortunately I cannot afford another trip to the US right now.

And yeah "certified" fitters... I went to one and I'm all confused. They told me they will send me the second best fit today, I'll let you know.

i hope you don't mind. i made your case a subject for a front page article.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Not at all! I'm actually honored :) Thanks so much for taking the time to review this.

The 52mm drop could be the result of me complaining I get neck pain when trying to look to the horizon. So the fitter worked out something out for that. I will train for IMCozumel starting next week, so that is a concern I have. Probably will need to get used to the position in time.

About the obtuse angle or superman position, I have read about it and try to not ride that way, so I just told the fitter where I felt comfortable in. I don't have the video or the picture to check for the angle, but in my current bike it is less than 90 degrees if I put the forearms on the pads. I actually ride more with my elbows on the pads. That was my first suspect my bike was not long enough for me, even with my change of stem from 80mm to 130mm.

I'm still waiting for the email from the fitter with my "second best" fit, see if those numbers make more sense with what you described in the article and what the guys in the forum suggested.

okay, but if you ride with your elbows on the pads that makes it even WORSE if by that i mean you're too stretched out. what we really need is a video.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

So the "second best" fit results are in!


Sorry, worse picture. I'm not even there. LOL



It put me further away from the band of "orthodoxy", but the bikes recommended are closer to my size: QR PR5 and 6 (also in 52), Cervelo P3 and P2 54's, Speed Concept, Shiv and Trinity in M. No trace of Felts.


Also, those are not far from your the Cervelos in your report. Yours also contain Felts and a couple Plasmas.


So I guess that second best fit put me higher in the bars, compensated by a shorter reach, so a more upright position, right?


https://www.dropbox.com/s/qb9opndlqs7yqti/mario_tello_fit.pdf?dl=0


Saddle height over BB 737mm
Saddle setback 33mm
Drop from saddle to bars 36mm
Reach from saddle to bars 783mm


Extension lenght 290mm
Pad reach 439mm - Way shorter
Pad Stack 687mm - Way higher
Pad height 60mm
Pad offset 20mm
Pad center to center 220mm
Crank lenght 170mm

Others have covered the saddle angle and frame. Front page? W00t! Let me just add that 52mm drop is wack. You are basically a parachute.

IME, and this could not work for you because we are all different, solution to neck pain, or really in general being unable to go low without pain are:

1) ride in aerobars more

2) work on your flexibility. Arms out. Chest out. Wall angel stretch. You probably want to have a PT look at it and recommend what to do, rather than follow what some guy on the internet had said... ;)

i'm not able to see this video.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

video unavailable

Let me try another... that link seems broken

that position looks high, but not awful. what i doubt is that your pad x is 500mm.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I've located a 56 Felt IA10. I'll go by the 465-475 pad you've suggested and work from there.

What about a Trek speed concept size M? The store has a good discount on one.

that sounds like a good bike for you. just there are several stems. once you get one, they probably won't just give you another. so, make SURE you get your fit just the way you want it. i'm doing an article on how to shoot your pad x/y with a crosshair laser. you need that sort of precision. i have my doubts as to whether you're really 500mm of pad x. i think you need to find that out first.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Trek over the Felt then?

I will fit myself in the store, they use the shimano system but I don't trust the fitter... showed him your article an did not seem to understand it... that and a previous fit that made me go to the 52 felt I have now from a 54. That was like 5 years ago, but still.

i would not say trek over felt. i just would say they're both great bikes. i do find the SC a bit of a tricky bike to adjust and work on, but that wouldn't keep me from owning it. (i've owned both the v1 and v2 versions of the SC).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

You can still find Gen1 SC stems if you look around (or have your local Trek rep call up Wisconsin). I don't think changing stems should be the problem.

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

changing stems wouldn't be a problem. what i'm saying tho is that trek isn't going to give him 6 stems when they sell him the bike, so he ought to take care to make sure he has the right one when he buys it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Perfect! thanks again!

Just wanted to show you the new bike and the first attempt to fit. The bike is a 56.

Is it comfortable? Looks like U could hold that position forever. It’s not aggressive, no head dipping down between the arms or anything but it looks... safe? That’s not good or bad, it just looks like a comfortable normal fit for lack of a better word. The question is how do u feel?

i don't have any problem with that position. if you eventually get a bit lower, i wouldn't complain. if you stay where you are, i wouldn't complain. nice job so far. bike looks like it's the right size.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Yeah I wonder if I can go lower. I will train like this and will be going down as my weight and training lets me. Thanks for all the valuable feedback!

Yeah feels good so far. I see many riding with a flatter back. Maybe I can go lower in the future, but so far so good. Specially now that I'm training for my first ironman, comfort is a good place to start.

Is the reason for this just that most bikes don't support a more forward position, or is it also biomechanical? I.e., if the front end can be adjusted for a more forward saddle position, are there reasons not to use it?

Bringing the saddle forward (with appropriate changes to pad position, seat height, etc.) is one change that I have tried to get lower in front without closing my hip angle (basically rotating around the BB).

I am exactly like you. 174cm tall. Short leg.
I am on felt 51cm DA4. 165 crank.

Thanks for the info. I'm already on a 56 IA10. I will look into the shorter cranks in the future, currently 170mm. I will do another pro fit next year, and will post the results here.

I just did the Cozumel Ironman and did pretty well on the bike, just a massive cramp on my left leg towards the end. I supect my saddle has a lot to do with it. I have not found it works for me. It is a Prologue Adamo.

Here's a video with a second adjustment. I moved the armpads a bit to the front, so my angle is now between 80 and 83 degrees more or less. Nothing else has been changed. Neck pain has diminished. Got a 5:28 bike split at IM Cozumel on that setup.

A relaxed position you have. I am 6ft 2 and have a 56 fit. For TT so a bit more aggressive

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Follow my project on Project 100 miles / 4 hours

Yeah, too easy so far. I'm finding ways to have myself lower on the front end.

IMO you should improve (by far) your aerodynamics being comfortable with pads shorter and lower. Not sure about saddle height (in youtube it seems slightly high, but not in a screenshot) nor length extensions


Last, but not least, I would like to see what happens when using higher bars.

Hi, just wanted to show you a couple changes over the last positions.

This one is with 160mm cranks, so I was able to raise the seat by 1cm, everything else the same (with the Felt stem). This gives me 6cm height difference between saddle and handlebar armrests. 52 cm from the tip of the saddle to the bar middle. This got me lower and feels right.




And here, with a Tririg Sigma X stem, gives me 7cm height difference saddle to armrests and 54 cm tip to bar middle. So longer and a bit little bit lower in front.





Which one looks better? I really don't feel any difference so far, but I have not rode outside or a long session on the bars. I just did the changes to compare measurements and angles. I guess I could keep the Tririg position and pull the armrests back a bit to do less than 90 degrees on cockpit lenght. I measure 88 to 90 degrees aproximately in that position.

I did some changes... check the post above this one :)

Hi Trent! check this out, I did some changes, posted videos. What do you think?

You are a bit too stretched out. Saddle needs to come forward 2 cm or so and then we can take another look.

Angle the extensions upward a few degrees as well (don't think you can do that with the tri-rig bars).

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Here it goes, back hidration had to go.

Looks good. Now work on head position and melt into those arm pads, and I think you’re there.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Sorry, not sure what you mean... how should the head be positioned? and by melt into the armpads you mean keep the position there?

It surely looks better than the Felt stem with 160mm cranks right?

This is a very good position. Now you need to “get small” which is what Trent is telling you.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Oh! Thank you!!! Like tucking in or something? Or get the head lower? (Sorry for the questions, English is not my first language)

Widen your elbows a bit at first while you learn how to relax the head and upper torso down. Like a drunk slouched over a toilet. Then work the elbows back in narrower while staying low. It's tricky to both relax and ride very narrow elbows, but possible.

I wish you bought the smaller size, but I see a dagger stem in your future. We'll turn that thing into a 1st gen 54cm p3 eventually.

Ohhh ok!!! Drunk references is something I do understand. LOL.

I will look for the dagger stem. How different is that from the tririg or the original felt I have? and how long do I need it?

I wish I could go lower, a couple cms more.

Dave is saying your current bike has a slightly high stack, and wishes you were on the one size smaller bike so that you could get lower. In other words, as your fit progresses you may feel the need get lower.

To do that on your current bike, you'll need a different stem from Felt, called the Dagger. It is a longer, lower stem that Felt makes for the IA. The stem is one size and is effectively a -17 stem. Your current Felt stem is angled up slightly, the new one will be level.

Which TriRig stem do you have? You might already be as low as you can get, and won't need the Dagger, but here it is anyway if you're interested.

Link to Felt's website:

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Oh thanks Eric! Yeah, I'm on the Tririg Sigma X in the last video.

So if it's not the stem, probably a bar that let's the armrests be set directly on it, right?

Perhaps, once your position develops that far.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Thanks again! Let's see how this goes.

Hi Eric! I was able to get lower in front, -4 cm than the last position. I also changed my seat to a Dash. How does it look?

looks OK... how did you get 4cm lower?

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I paired Ritchey Comp Silver Clip On Armrest Clamps and T4 Profile Design cut aerobars, swapped them for the Felt aerobars I had. The Ritcheys clamp directly on the aerobar, and the armrests have no spacers. I will send you pics once I get the bike from the shop.
Do you see any adjustments I could do? I guess moving the seat a bit to the front now?

Hi Trent! I was able to get lower. Also changed my seat to a Dash. What do you think?

Pretty solid. Maybe bring the saddle forward another cm if it can go.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Thanks! it can! I tried the setup on the road yesterday and felt great. Thanks!

By the way, sorry to hear about Tristore :( I just saw the thread. Best of luck as always and hopefully you remain active in the forums so we can catch up later!