Jordan's instagram says she has a stress reaction in the heel. . .whatever that may mean. The announcers said her coach was worried it could lead to a fracture in a race situation.

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Ya I heard that too, never really heard of a stress reaction before. Stress fracture yes, but this is a new one, at least to me.

I think I would have finished higher in the AG field than normal in conditions like they had today. Heat definitely hinders my performance more than cold and I have few problems, physically or mentally, training in wet and cold conditions.

One of the years I was in Kona to help cover the race, I was training hard for IM Florida. On the day I planned to run maybe 13 miles it was one of those rare monsoon-like days in Kona and the rain felt so good that I ended up running the entire marathon course. I'm sure that rain felt way better than the rain in Boston today.

Stress reaction is a precursor to a stress fracture.

Look at table 1 if you're interested in how stress injuries are graded:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC4367232/

Not a great day for your first marathon. Des had no equals today - she won by 4+ minutes. Gwen would be wise to pick a mid-tier Europe marathon for her marathon debut (Spring = Paris, Fall = Frankfurt). The weather is much less erratic in Europe.

I think you missed my point about Gwen, I think she would have thrived in those conditions. She does not need to pick some fast and hot race anywhere, she would do well in cold and super windy conditions, the kind that blows right through and forces everyone to run into it.

And dry up that race and make it 80 degrees, and the winners are not on the podium even, and they would just be anonymous finishers somewhere in the pack. That is why it is great to have these types of races every once in awhile, you get to see who the tough guys/gals really are...

Its fascinating how much conditions can play a part. I do not really follow distance-running that closely and dont know how these athletes normally train and what they are normally used to. I know that Kawauchi-guy seems though as nails running about 4x as many marathons a year as the top africans/americans etc - so in hindsight he seems like a good pick for a day like this. In general - wouldnt you think that conditions like these favour athletes abit heavier/musculus rather than skinny-cat-runners from africa?

From my own experience I do waaay better compared to my compition in miserable conditions (my best running weather would probably be 0C and rain/snow + some wind - haha). I'm kinda heavy compared to most runners, and seem alot less affected by this than the smaller guys that normally blast me by 2min + in a short race. Should note that where I live 5 C and rain is the norm - rarely run in very hot weather at all. The few races I have done in the heat have been miserable. (and by heat - for me - i really mean anyhting over 20 C...!)

I see your point. But what did you say about her being very light for her height. I mean she is even skinnier now than in her tri days. She weights more than her competitors but it just comes from height and not from aditional substance.

I am a tall guy and at one point was very skinny. At that weight I didn't perform well in cool conditions and prefered hot races. It also didn't help my power.

But maybe I am too biased and it is just her normal body type.

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10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40

" That is why it is great to have these types of races every once in awhile, you get to see who the tough guys/gals really are... "

I don't think the people that ran well today are any tougher than those who run well on hot days or normal days. They are just better suited to running in cold - probably mostly due to genetics. Personally I find it much harder to believe when people run well in the heat, but that's just because I don't.

I run horribly in the heat. The last time I ran Boston was 2012. It was 88 degrees that day and I started it knowing I couldn't finish. I was in low 2:50's shape but I know I can barely get through 5 miles of easy jogging without walking when it is that hot. I took it out slower than I usually do easy training runs, doused myself in water practically every quarter mile (there were people everywhere giving it out) and I was still walking at 9 miles and DNFd at 17. I do fine in the cold and although today looked like a truly miserable day to run, I'm sure I would have done far better today relative to my condition than most of the folks who did well on that hot day in '12. I think I'm as mentally tough as anyone but my body just won't perform in the heat.

To me the folks who ran well that day (or any year at Kona or any other hot day) are the tough ones. I suppose to some of those folks, those of us who handle the cold and wet OK are tough. Just a matter of perspective and what your body is capable of.

I don't think you can say that Gwen would have done well today. Below freezing start and driving winds is not a condition you see often in Triathlons.

I will say off the bat I think Gwen is going to be a great marathoner. But look at todays winners, Desi and Yuki are the definition of marathoners. They are rarely seen on the track and even most half marathons they run are in prep for marathons (except Yuki who seems to run every week!). I think being only focused on one type of race (a marathon) limits you in some cases. Either of these runners would have won a fast marathon. But when the conditions are terrible, the fact that all you do is focus on running marathons lets may help keep you going when others have not. The pain of the marathon is nothing new to these two.

If you look at how badly the top runners fell apart, I think you can say that this was a great race and the wins were well deserved.

Yes but it just seems like "most" people do well or ok in very hot conditions. You and I and only a few others do extremely well in horrid conditions like this. I mean only two people really did well today, those were the winners. Others did ok compared to the competition, but I would not say well. If it was 75 and perfect, well it would have been bunched up fields and close finishes with virtually all of the competitors, with our winners around 10th or so.

That is why I say the tough folks rise to the surface on days like today, because it destroys virtually everyone out there. Hot days just destroy you and I, and the two winners from today...(-;

I don't follow this stuff as much as you, but hasn't Des finished 2nd and 4th at Boston before? Last year she finished 4th and it was really hot. I wouldn't call 4th middle of the pack.

Well personally I don't think I'd have done "well" today either. I'd say today destroyed most everyone - the winners were just destroyed a bit less. Desi is usually mid 2:20's and she ran a few seconds under 2:40. Hard to imagine that won a World Major. A bit off the topic but I checked the final results, and Edna Kiplagat came in 8th and was the ONLY African in the top 100 women. Apparently every other one dropped out. Wow.

I watched the whole thing live and it was brutal out there. I think you and I and others who don't mind cold would have survived, but I don't think anyone could run near their capabilities in this mess. Cold and wet aside, fighting that wind for all those miles would just beat the shit out of you. One of the few Patriot Day's that I was not bummed to not be in Beantown.

ETA: Sorry Bluemonkeytri - I meant to reply to monty's post just above yours.

Desi is an Olympian who has finished 2nd at Boston previously losing by a mere two seconds. To say she’d be an anonymous in the pack finisher is not even close to accurate.

Yes, and a two time Olympian.

If it were 75 and sunny there would have been just as much carnage. Just in different ways. Looks the Olympic trials in 2016. That wasn’t even 75 and it was carnage.

50s or even 40s is where great marathons are run.

Des went toe-to-toe with the best in the in brutally hot conditions in Rio and finished 7th. She could have won the race in 80 degrees and dry conditions today. I don't understand why she doesn't get the respect of other world class women marathons.

It doesn't help Rotterdam, Paris and London care so close to Boston the fields are diluted. Easier for the Africans to fly to Europe races. But this year was different. It was a race indeed, and those who can execute repeatedly thrived. The under dogs win. Yuki is known as "citizen runner" because he is not sponsored like others and has a full time job!

Its fascinating how much conditions can play a part.


I only saw a few pictures and listened to a few post-race interviews, but I was really surprised to see what some of the top runners were wearing.

- Big billowing rain jackets in a head wind race!

- Completely bare legs

- Nothing on their heads - no tuques

It appears many of the race favorites succumbed to and suffered in the conditions. Those jackets that more than a few were wearing at the start, were acting like parachutes holding them back. Look to cycling for more form-fitting (aerodynamic or less wind grabbing) garments!

With air temps where they were and the wet conditions, they should have thought more about keeping the legs covered, and borrowing again from cycling and using some embrocation treatment before to help keep the legs warm

25% - 30% of heat loss is through the head - wear a tuque.

I spent many a winter in Vancouver running in wet and 0C - 5C conditions. Always ran in full tights or half-tights with knickers with a brushed inner surface to provide a bit more warmth and wicking - leg muscles are generating large amounts of heat so moisture moves well from skin to outside.

On upper body a skin tight stretchy thinner fleece material is best next to skin, and then some form of close fitting, windbreaker like vest over that that is vented well in the back, thin gloves/mittens and a tuque. In conditions like that, you are NEVER going to stay dry and the game is controlling the environment right next to your skin as best as you can. A thin micro-fleece moves great amount of moisture from inside to outside. A good amount of heat can be moderated by taking tuque on and off, and when off just stuffing it in the waist-band of your tights

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

It was a frigging swim-run out there today ! I can’t speak to the elites, but as an age grouper it was damn hard. Personally I did better age group wise in today’s cold and wet than I did in last year’s heat. I didn’t wear tights in the wet b/c I didn’t want to have to swing them 40,000 times over the race. But a form fitting top and a heat were very necessary. FWIW, when the rain and wind really picked up I tried to draft behind someone, preferably someone who was wearing a big rain poncho/bag.

Desi was wearing a jacket, gloves and ear cover. It worked for her !

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Brian
“Eat and Drink, spin the legs and you’re going to effin push (today).” A Howe

Fleck, I was thinking along the same lines. The jacket that Kirui (2nd place) wore was like a parachute, had to create a tremendous amount of drag. Over 26 miles, and with that headwind, must have been quite the disadvantage. If we were wacthing Kona, and someone had a loose jersey on during the bike we would jump all over them. Yet, these are the best in the marathon world, and those were the choices .... of course I could never even be in the same neighborhood as them :-)

I probably would have gone with tri shorts and compression socks today if I was running Boston. I don't normally wear compression in training or racing but would have today for warmth. I think Linden did it right from the waist up. I'm not an elite marathoner so I don't know how cold their legs get and stay in those conditions. Since Linden didn't take off the jacket, I assume the legs didn't reach optimal temperature for racing.

Was Des training in Minnesota with the Hanson Brooks team? Winter training in horrible conditions may have helped today... Definitely thought the weather played into Kawauchi's hand... He's run so many marathons, there has to have been some crazy sufferfests in his resume. He clearly had something to draw on. It was an interesting race to watch. Des went through a dark spot and after bridging back up with Flanagan came around. Kawauchi was strong from the beginning, in my opinion today he was unbeatable. He went to a point where he was about to black out. Another odd question... Kawauchi started in a singlet and arm warmers. the rest started in rain gear... I have some pretty expensive rain gear, even in the best stuff I own, if I am in it too long, when I end up taking it off, I feel like I have been in a sauna. Could over heating have been a problem?
Mitch

Des went through a dark spot and after bridging back up with Flanagan came around. //

Honestly I dont think she really ever came out of that dark spot, it was just that everyone in front of her quit or blew sky high. She ran a very pedestrian time, especially as compared to the mens winning time, and the funny part is no one was even close for 2nd!! They both just ran what they could and on this day just finishing in ok shape won you a lot of money. She is a much more class runner than Kawauchi, but it seems the men had an even harder time than the women.


Like I said, this would have been a good day I believe for a lot of triathletes, no doubt that the Brownlees would have thrived in this weather, along with a to of other pro Tri folks. I mean it looked like amatuer hour out there looking at everyone with their various kits on. Have world class runners never run a race in this kind of weather before? It was crazy, what ever happened to tights, head band and long sleeve poly pro? All they had for back up was a wind breaker from the 1970's? All their closing sponsors should be shot, it was absolutely unprofessional. And it cost most everyone their race too, like it was the Antarctic marathon or something. Not just some rainy day in spring, jeeesh!!

being in the southern hemisphere, just heading into winter and switching focus from 70.3 to marathon, its been on my mind recently the lack of run specific technical clothing as compared to cycling. the castelli gabba was released in 2013 and marked a real development in technical cycling gear for bad weather which has since been copied and evolved. 5 years later, there still seems to be little to nothing of the sort for running. sure, running is typically less affected by weather than cycling but boston has just shown us it is far from immune to it. think i'll be wearing cycling gear again for much of my winter running

first question has a simple answer - no.. nearly all the majors are carefully positioned on the calendar/world for moderate conditions.
Des had a good well-fitted jacket, the Nike guys/gals had great shoes and drag parachutes for jackets.. quite a fail indeed.
I was startled to see no tights, for myself would certainly have been wearing my foul-weather Amfib tights or similar.

definitely not just a rainy spring day though, windchill in the 20s with pouring rain is hypothermia city. Shalene said she bit her tongue at mile 6, her teeth were chattering so hard.. Molly Huddle in 4th place with a couple miles to go, thought her glasses were fogging over then remembered she wasn't wearing glasses, that was her vision going in the cold..

in those conditions the form book goes out the window and the cold-adapted and genetically lucky, do best. Des was ready to run low 2:20s I believe, ran smart and thoughtfully as always, and prevailed. I am so happy..

Second place woman, https://www.instagram.com/p/Bho2iiTFDP2



I wouldn't run as skimpily clad as that, in fifty degrees of clear weather..

I know this is going to sound bad, but I come from a running background not tri. Wearing tight clothes or tri type stuff as a distance runner is often seen as....ugh....hobbyjogger stuff. Yes I realize that’s ridiculous but it is kinda there.

This is definitely an ego problem for some runners, although I’ve seen the same with swimmers... people saying ‘No I just don’t wear jammers because it’s not the done thing’. I get looking like a bit of a tool in comparison to other people, but it’s not as much of a difference as showing up to an Ironman on a mountain bike.

I live in Scotland and like a lot of people who have four seasons you need to wear what is necessary to get the job done. I’ve raced an Olympic distance tri in weather like yesterday and it was fairly miserable but having trained in similar weather definitely helped.

People have different strengths and some will manage cooler conditions well. I would struggle in a hot race purely based on the fact I can’t replicate it in training. If you lived somewhere warm and that’s what you’ve got to train in then you’d get better at hot races.

Spoken like someone who doesn't know his history..... I think ST needs a write up of Mr citizen runner

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6610044#p6610044

https://deadspin.com/...g-winners-1825293545

• He’s a government employee in Japan who doesn’t run professionally and has a full-time job.
• This was at least his 71st competitive marathon since the beginning of 2012—averaging just under one a month. Overall, he’s run in at least 81 marathons.
• He’s run 26 of them faster than 2:12 and 79 of them under 2:20. Both of those numbers are world records.
• In January, Kawauchi ran a 2:18:59 marathon in Marshfield, Massachusetts in one-degree weather. He was the only finisher.
• That race gave him the most marathons ever run under 2:20; he finished two more between then and Boston. (Obviously he was the only one of his competitors to have already run a marathon this year. Today was his fourth of 2018.)
• The NYPD mysteriously clipped him in the 2014 New York City Marathon.
• Today in Boston he beat defending world and Boston champion Geoffrey Kirui, and defending Chicago champion and all-around stud Galen Rupp. No one finished within two minutes of him.

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I totally agree with most of your points except that one. My grandma used to tell me the same thing but your heat loss from your head can only equal the amount skin (% of total body). Unless your head is 25-30% of your total skin mass then you are more likely in the range of 10ish%.

definitely not just a rainy spring day though, windchill in the 20s with pouring rain is hypothermia city. Shalene said she bit her tongue at mile 6, her teeth were chattering so hard.. Molly Huddle in 4th place with a couple miles to go, thought her glasses were fogging over then remembered she wasn't wearing glasses, that was her vision going in the cold..


If that is the state they were in, then they were not warm enough - far from optimal - and needed to make some different choices for apparel.

In the picture you posted Sellers is really only wearing arm-warmers as extra. But there is a BIG range in runners individual tolerance and what they can cope with.

As I mentioned in a previous post, they probably needed to look to cycling, and some of the apparel used there for racing, training in similar conditions or Nordic skiing, a sport where it's often far colder than this for racing/training.

I note that in cycling the rule is generally cover the legs up when the temperature is below 15C to 18C. For running, historically I moved that down by about 5C so I would be looking to cover the legs either with full tights or half or knicker tights at 10C or lower.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Possibly Corneal Edema: I've heard a lot about it lately

https://ultrarunnerpodcast.com/...ey-dauwalter-rrr100/

https://www.irunfar.com/...at-the-research.html

Sounds like a great name for a metal band

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

What I heard yesterday was that it is a condition of employment that he cannot accept sponsorship for running. However, he can accept prize money. He has placed 3rd and 4th at the Tokyo Marathon, so Boston makes the 2nd podium in a major. He has won 30 (31?) marathons. This guy is both fast and strong. No, I doubt he would have won in good weather, but you take what nature gives you on the day. It was a fantastic win and great to see Japan back on the podium after Seko won Boston in 1981 and 1987. Footnote: in 1966, Japanese marathoners took 1-2-3-4 at Boston (1. Kenji Kemihara, Japan 2:17:116 2. Seiichiro Sasaki, Japan 2:17:34 3. Toru Terasawa, Japan 2:17:46 4. Hirokazu Okabe, Japan 2:18:11).

I definitely would have gone with half tights, mostly because these guys would be flicking rain onto their hamstrings.

Derek is digging into the 2018 finishers' data


https://www.marathoninvestigation.com/...first-look-data.html

And look at this ...


I guess that means [and feel free to correct me] that although both men and women BOTH suffered in 2017 [heat] and 2018 [wind, rain, snow, etc], the women sucked it up and were more badass than the men under the conditions, and didn't slip as far from their BQs

No surprise there; sorry, dudes

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Totally agree. Monty is dead wrong.

Exactly! Horrible clothing choice. I can only think that won't be a part of the next "Breaking 2" attempt.

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Formerly DrD

As I was starting my swim today I wondered if wearing a silicone swim cap would have been a good choice with a fabric beanie over that.

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Let food be thy medicine...

I said in the other thread I saw a number of people with shower caps over their beanie yesterday. While of course it looks terrible it kept the beanie dry, was light and trapped a bit of extra heat in bit light enough not to overheat. Pretty brilliant I was thinking at the time.

Kawauchi recently ran and won a half marathon in his home town wearing a full panda suit.

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Andrew Inkpen

Are you serious? That is awesome!

I wish I could read the Japanese press on his Boston win!

OK, now we're getting into Chuck Norris territory

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

It seems Nike had a new cutting edge, throw all the technology we can at it, shoe available for their top runners at Boston - https://gearpatrol.com/...-3d-printing-launch/ but nothing in the apparel department for them to wear in those sorts of conditions.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I live in Florida and dont need much high tech apparel but you can imagine they do have such gear but possibly never provided it in their sponsor kits because they didnt foresee this race. And you are right, their shoe technology was a huge bust given how much time their runners gave up wearing ridiculous jackets.

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"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview