Holy shit!! I never thought I'd ever vote for Kathleen Wynn again but I can't bring myself to vote for Doug Ford.

We should explain this for those unfamiliar. This is for the provincial Ontario election. Doug Ford is a populist and like is brother could be described as a slightly more polite (but not much) version of Donald Trump. For the past twelve years the provincial Liberal Party has been in power and has a not particularly popular leader in Kathleen Wynn. However, Ford is a loud mouth and caters to the right/conservative populace. The Conservatives have gone into the last two elections ahead in the polls but blew it both times by their leaders saying/doing stupid things. I can see this happening a third time.

I've got this weird sense of deja vu, but I can't quite place it.

Yep.

Apparently, they're sending everyone home.

Officially its because its going into recount, but Doug Ford supporters (including former cabinet ministers) are saying its because the elites have rigged it.

LOL Yup it seems someone doesn't want Ford to win, gotta love it...lol

Putin is messing with provincial party leadership races?

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Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's

As if the rest of Canada needed yet another reason to hate Ontario.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Shouldn't you be hating Alberta, no gas and all?

The uncouth, populist, ‘anti establishment’ candidate that people don’t really like vs the liberal that nobody likes.

Stop me if you’ve heard this one before...

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I think this article from the Globe and Mail sums things up quite nicely:

With Doug Ford’s victory, a populist wave sweeps into Ontario


After years of speculation, Canada is about to find out what happens when the populist wave that has swept much of the Western world overtakes one of its major political parties.


The bizarre manner in which Doug Ford was crowned the leader of Ontario's Progressive Conservatives on Saturday – his victory rumoured for many hours, but delayed by procedural challenges until most people attending the leadership announcement had been kicked out of the suburban conference hall where it was held – should not obscure the stunning change it brings to the options facing voters in a spring election.


Only a couple of months ago, the looming campaign in the country's largest province seemed set to offer a change of face but not a dramatic change in direction – former leader Patrick Brown determinedly trying to present a Red Tory-ism that would ease the minds of centrist voters tired of Kathleen Wynne's Liberals, but worried about spending cuts or a lack of modernism in social or environmental policy.


Now, the election promises to be something much more important than that: A referendum on whether Ontarians are prepared to embrace a style of government more visceral and unpredictable and resistant to political and institutional norms than any they have had before.


Mr. Ford is not Donald Trump to whom comparisons will be made on a daily basis between now and when Ontarians' cast their ballots on June 7. Skepticism of immigration, for instance, is not part of his formula; his late brother Rob enjoyed considerable support from new Canadians during his successful run for Toronto's mayoralty, and so did Doug in his unsuccessful bid to replace him. And he was certainly much less bombastic, while seeking the PC nomination, than was Mr. Trump during his ascent to the U.S. presidency.


But everything we know about Mr. Ford, as a politician, makes the parallels too numerous to overlook. There is the almost proud ignorance of the intricacies of public policy; the simple sloganeering and attack lines against opponents (right down to his campaign's apparent attempt through social media to label Ms. Elliott "crooked Christine"); the enthusiastic dabbling in social conservatism despite not presenting as the most devout of Christians; the habitual disdain toward the media; the reputation as a bully, including toward his own staff and behind-the-scenes allies.


And more importantly, there are the parallels between what he offers, and what is offered not just by Mr. Trump but by populists in through much of Europe and elsewhere: validation to those who feel left behind by economic or social change, and believe that corrupt "elites" across all mainstream political parties are indifferent to their struggles.


That was evident even in how he campaigned for the PC leadership, particularly in the latter stages as his campaign suggested that party higher-ups were conspiring to keep someone like him from the leadership. You could see it, too, in the way he wore his lack of policy depth as a badge of honour – the implication being that he, more than the coddled bureaucrats and political lifers and ivory-tower elites normally around government, could through force of will impose the common-sense solutions to return Ontario to past glories.


As relatively mild as he was when speaking publicly about his opponents during this leadership campaign, his past form suggests he will try to channel voters' dislike of Ms. Wynne in a much harsher tone than the other leadership candidates would have. And if he winds up in the Premier's office, what we know about him from the municipal level and the building of the Ford brand suggests that he will be much less beholden to orthodoxies – about what government must do, about how it communicates, about how decisions are made at the cabinet table – than anyone who has occupied it before.


There is really no way of knowing how all that will play with voters who did not participate in the Tories' leadership process. Yes, Rob Ford managed to win in Toronto – seemingly a less hospitable market for this type of conservatism than other parts of the province – and Doug Ford didn't come that far from victory there himself. But being elected to lead a municipality with a weak-mayor system is nothing like being entrusted to run the country's second-largest government.


The Liberals undoubtedly feel better about trying to overcome their extremely low approval numbers against Mr. Ford than they would have against Ms. Elliott or Caroline Mulroney, and Andrea Horwath's New Democrats surely see an opening for themselves as a less volatile alternative. Recent polls have suggested he is viewed negatively by an unusually high number of voters for an incoming opposition leader. And among other potential turn-offs for voters Mr. Brown was courting, notably suburban women who have been pivotal to the Liberals' electoral success, is Mr. Ford's expressed willingness to reopen the abortion debate and other typically third-rail social issues – something he may be hard-pressed to drop after social-conservative candidate Tanya Granic Allen proved kingmaker.


But Ontario is hardly immune from factors that have powered populists elsewhere. There are plenty of towns where traditional jobs in manufacturing or otherwise have dried up, and there is angst about a perceived shrinking of the middle class and the cost of living, and there are many people who believe that urban liberals are imposing their values – in the form of everything from wind turbines to sex-education curriculum – on everyone else.


There hasn't really been a test yet here of what a politician willing and able to tap into those feelings might be able to achieve electorally, nor what kind of a government it would produce. It's led to considerable smugness, among the sorts of people Mr. Ford would dismiss as elites, when casting their eyes south of the border. They shouldn't be feeling any such comfort the next three months, and very possibly well beyond.

Id actually like to see Alberta do that so all of our idiot environmentalists can start bitching about how expensive gas gets and how much their cost of living goes up, and expose their hypocrisy.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

I can see him winning a lot of small town Ontario votes even though I live in a rural area that traditionally votes 50/50 towards either party in provincial elections. Not sure how well he'll be received in Toronto despite his brother having been mayor, but I would expect less so in other urban centers. But it will be an interesting election.

I think Ford still has pockets of strong support in Toronto but I would expect Horwarth to now fare better here. Where I can see Ford reclaiming more votes for the PC's is in the Toronto commuter belt.

What may actually work in Ford's favour is the short timeframe before the election as it affords him less opportunity for "saying / doing stupid things". If Ford can put good people around him to limit this and flesh out policy it will definitely be interesting.

https://www.thebeaverton.com/...eplace-sex-criminal/

You might be surprised at how he does. I was just reading this on cbc http://www.cbc.ca/...tt-meeting-1.4571798 and it seems he managed to lose the the popular vote and win less ridings than Christine. I don't know if rural Ontario will swallow hard and vote for him or not, but I was surprised that at least Ontario has a similarly screwed up leadership election process as the US presidential election process.

If the Ontario PC's lose three in a row while well ahead in the polls prior to an election maybe that's a Guinness record. :-)

Not even close look to the Alberta PC's run. But at least they are putting in an effort to help the Liberals match the Alberta PC's run.

Short sign up period and lots of boot on the ground signing people up likely tipped in Ford's favour? I put him in the selfish bastard category as this election was Conservatives to win with Christine Elliott or Caroline Mulroney.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Ford will win. And it will be a landslide. People hate Wynne.

Ford will likely take Toronto and I don't see him having difficulty in rural areas.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Not Ontario, the Progressive Conservative Party. The right analogy would be that this is a US style primary with a short voting window, that weights results by congressional district.

This is more or less my call as well.

Pretty sad state of affairs.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Yeah I wasn't sure if it was just the Ontario PC's or all of them and didn't care enough to go digging and find out.

We have a drama teacher running the North, a drama queen running the south, now we’re filling out the supporting cast, starting with a clown.

I joined the PC Party when I moved back to Ontario but will abstain from voting now that Ford was elected.

now we’re filling out the supporting cast, starting with a clown.

RR

Thank you for calling Doug Ford what he really is . . a clown!

The world really is upside down when someone like Doug Ford can rise to this level - granted he's still to face the electorate, but given the current mood and situation here in Ontario, there is a very real chance that he could end up as Premier - which quite honestly is absurd!

It's important to remember that, the last/only time that Doug Ford was in an elected office (Toronto City Councillor) he was a terrible elected representative and was a clown.

- He repeatedly was reprimanded for ethics violations

- He supported, is brother Rob's every crazy, move as Mayor - and wild and in many cases illegal behaviour. ( By all means of ranking and comparison, the worst Mayor the City of Toronto has ever had - by a very long shot - the city is STILL trying to recover from the damage done on many levels by Rob Ford)

- He openly attacked, and defamed the Chief of Police - and was forced to apologize

- He made a mockery of the proceedings in Council on numerous occasions.

- Was caught out in numerous easily proved lies, regularly

- At every opportunity attacked the press and called them liars!

- Was absent more than he was present for Council business

- While he claimed he was a supporter of the "Little Guy", and the "Average-Joe", Doug almost always voted against programs that would help those people (as did his brother Rob)!!

- Routinely dabbled in conflicts of interest regarding the Ford Family Business - Deco lables

- Offended various groups with completely inappropriate and offensive commentary

- Blamed the demon and evil "elites" (whoever that is) for everything!!

- Whenever, he did speak, publicly, just like his brother Rob, it was all bluster, bragging and complete and total incoherence!

However, the real perversity of all this is, just like the popularity of Rob Ford, and even Donald Trump, the more he's criticized, the more the media piles on, the more we go on social media with, "Did you hear what Doug just said", - absurdly the greater his support becomes!

Every Liberal supporter/voter, every Liberal candidate, right on up to Premier Wynne herself, anyone and everyone who will want to oppose Doug Ford, will have to think VERY carefully about what they say, and how they say it. Again, openly attacking him, and calling out his MANY, and totally obvious faults, shortcomings, and wrongdoings - will back-fire completely!

In this age of populism, opposing and beating politicians like Doug Ford is very tricky! It's a whole new game now!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

While I do not disagree, they’ve only got themselves to blame, and especially Wynne. This article by John Ibbitson is good, and I especially like the following:

“Ford populism shares with its Mike Harris predecessor a dislike for big government, red-tape regulation, high taxes and waste. It especially derides the political, cultural, academic and journalistic elites in downtown Toronto.”

   
“Ford populism shares with its Mike Harris predecessor a dislike for big government, red-tape regulation, high taxes and waste. It especially derides the political, cultural, academic and journalistic elites in downtown Toronto.”

OK, as much as it pains me, let's play along, with the Doug Ford as Premier game. This is actually the article I like - https://globalnews.ca/...-ontario-pc-deficit/

Doug Ford SAYS he's a fiscal conservative. That we have to get away from the days and ways of the spend-happy Liberals. Doug's "solution" for this, is just the same as it was with him and his brother, Rob Ford when Rob was Mayor - finding all those $millions, even $billions of "efficiencies" and waste - wave a magic wand, and voila, $2billion saved. The problem, of course is that, while there are always efficiencies to be found, there are NO WAY near, what Doug says they are, not even close.*

So as the article states, does Doug have the honesty, to be truthful with voters, about REAL austerity, and then have the guts, to follow through on real, genuine austerity measures - that might mean (for a times) - RAISING taxes, AND cutting services at the same time (that's what REAL austerity is)? It's highly doubtful and instead, Doug will bluster on (lying) about the $billions in "efficiencies" that he'll find, and the sham of how he will lower taxes, either maintaining services or increasing them while at the same time slaying the deficit/debt! Which is total BS, but watch Ford Nation swallow all that hook-line-and-sinker.

* With the Rob Ford "Stop the Gravy Train" at the City of Toronto, KPMG came in and did an audit - they did find some savings, in few hundred thousand range. However, for the entire rest of Rob's tenure as Mayor, and then when Doug was running for Mayor in the next election in his place, both Rob & Doug claimed they saved the city of Toronto over $1billion - which is completely false! Doug in fact is still saying this and said it again, in one of the PC leadership debates, "I saved the city of Toronto $1billion" Wrong! :-)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

It is too early to say what Ford will or will not do. We need to see what his election platform looks like, and even then the chances are it will be short on real substance until he gets into office and sees what he is inheriting. Again, from the G&M: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/...ping-foreign-buyers/

I will view Wynne though the same lens. Even if I do not necessarily agree with her promises Wynne's history of breaking them is contemptible. But, to use your own analogy, there are those who will accept what Wynne has to say "hook-line-and-sinker".

This is my take:

• I live in downtown Toronto and in arguably the most socially progressive neighbourhood in the city. Even though I was subject to Rob Ford's mayoralty, even though I have held leadership roles with the Big Four audit firm you mention (and others) and would, to most, form part of the political, cultural, academic and journalistic elite, I am more worried about Wynne being re-elected than Doug running amok for four years

• It is sad that we have come to a point where the choice is between these two. We can surely do better, so let's start by acknowledging we have a problem with big government, red-tape regulation, high taxes and waste, and that something needs to change. As implied previously I view the Ford's as the reaction, not the cause

• What worries me most about Ford becoming leader of the PCs isn't him getting in. Rather, it is that Wynne realises she is going to lose and to save her skin approaches the NDP about entering into an agreement

I will view Wynne though the same lens. Even if I do not necessarily agree with her promises Wynne's history of breaking them is contemptible. But, to use your own analogy, there are those who will accept what Wynne has to say "hook-line-and-sinker".


I agree - Wynne and the Liberals have not really helped themselves. If the polls are to be believed they have dug themselves into a pretty big hole. Beyond, their core support, there is a lack of trust, and a sense of being disconnected.

As for Ford - While the election is not that far off, despite winning the Leadership vote barely, my understanding is the party is totally and completely divided (and Doug is no unifier), he does not have the full support of caucus. I have good friends who are life-long Tory's ( two who have been elected Federally for the Conservatives) and they have told me flat-out, they can NEVER support Ford!!

While everyone is playing polite, now, I expect the campaign to get ugly and nasty. Doug, who of late has been on his best behavior, was up to his more normal bombastic, and belligerent ways in a telephone interview with the CBC Radio Morning host in Ottawa yesterday that's gone a bit viral. Doug, being Doug, just kept using the same old tired 2 - 3, slogans and sound bites to answer every question, and when the CBC interviewer simply asked for more substance and detail - Doug just kept inserting Sound-Bite A, B or C and he started to get flustered and agitated and started to bite back.

Of course Ford supporters as they typically do, blamed the CBC Host and attacked the CBC as being biased. All she was doing was asking for more details on how Doug will, for example, find $billions in "efficiencies"? And Doug, had no answer, other than repeating over and over, he found 1$billion in savings for the city of Toronto, which is factually wrong and a lie!

For me personally, Ford does have a GREAT opportunity here - he can be the great economic Savior of the province. He's going to inherit a bit of an economic and financial mess. The great opportunity is to clean that up, but as I said previously, that's going to take honesty, grit and a lot of guts - not slogans. Think of the Early 1990's Federal Liberals - Chretian/Martin - we really were on the edge of the debt abyss at that point, and that's kind of where we are at provincially in Ontario - but the Chretrian/Martin Liberals made the hard decisions to start to turn things around. It was not popular. There were sacrifices to be made. They had to hold-the-line, and/or increase taxes, AND cut back on some services - But Doug NEVER says that. He continues to present the falsehood, that there will be no cuts, he will lower taxes, he will balance the budget and bring the debt down, all with the magic of finding "efficiencies", but we know that, CAN'T happen that way!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Paul Martin was one of the best finance ministers we ever had and Jean Cretien had the sense to go along with him. Our rural riding will for sure vote conservative there are alot of people angry about windmills here in addition to many other things.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Paul Martin was one of the best finance ministers we ever had and Jean Cretien had the sense to go along with him. Our rural riding will for sure vote conservative there are alot of people angry about windmills here in addition to many other things.


So Doug Ford released part his "platform" today. Sure enough he had that fantasy of cutting taxes, not cut to any services ( although when pressed earlier this week he said healthcare could use some cuts*) else, balancing the books and slaying the debt, all by finding $6billion in, "efficiencies" - all of which is impossible! Low information Ford Nation types of course will gobble all of this up and think Ford is the second coming - but it's all a big falsehood and lie.

Several Economists have already weighed in and said it's all impossible, but Doug will just brush this off as comments from the out-of-touch "elites"! Why do the Doug Ford's of the world and their followers seem to have such disdain for people who actually know what they are talking about - experts in their fields?

* Several Reports recently including one from the right leaning Fraser Institute have recommended across the board increases in Healthcare Spending. Much of this is demographically driven - the Baby Boomers are all starting to get old!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

If you’re this worked up now, I’m going to feel sorry for your wife come election night! ;-)

Do you have a cost breakdown of the proposals? I thought they were still being worked through so am interested in seeing them.

If you’re this worked up now, I’m going to feel sorry for your wife come election night! ;-)


It may seem like I'm "worked up" - I call it being engaged.

Given the current mood, and where we are at, I would not be surprised in the least if Doug Ford is the Premier of Ontario on June 8th. It's absurd, it's crazy, it's bizarre, it makes no sense - but that is the political climate that we are in right now.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Cost breakdown?

Cost breakdown?


Some more details here - https://www.thestar.com/...-but-no-layoffs.html

A scathing review of Doug's first week on the Job as leader here from the Globe & Mail Editorial Board - https://www.theglobeandmail.com/...-start-as-pc-leader/

Of course, as they will, Doug & co. will brush this off as the views of the "elites" - which plays will to the Ford Nation base.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

There is no cost breakdown in these articles. Which means you, and their authors, are getting prematurely "engaged".

Ford has promised to provide the breakdown. Until he does all you are doing is speculating. If Ford doesn't provide substance before the election (and if I were advising him I would suggest keeping the details to a minimum so that he can get his feet under the desk, see what he's inherited and not be forced to break an election promise) people will have to decide if his not doing so is better or worse than Wynne's most recent budget, her track record of breaking promises,the $1.3 billion that was squandered in the gas plant scandal, etc, etc.

EDIT: by the way I am not condoning Ford. I simply want to see substance and loathe the popularity-contest nature of modern elections.

If Doug does win I'll predict a Queen's Park version of the turmoil we're seeing in Trump's White House coming to Ontario. Never in a million years did I ever think I'd vote for Wynne again, but I probably will.

because doug, like his late brother, largely practices (or anyway, tries to campaign on) balance-sheet governance.

his policies aren't informed by any over-arching philosophy. he says "cut taxes," and "reduce waste," but never tells us which taxes he wants cut, but how much, or what his metric is for deciding what's 'waste' and what's essential.

when a politician runs on a set of principals, you can at least theoretically apply those principles to all sorts of scenarios to predict what decisions he'll make. by being such a blank slate, ford has a few advantages:
-he can claim any outcome was his intention, post-hoc
-people can project whatever they want on him
-he doesn't ever have to get into the weeds about actual policy, which is complex and difficult

lastly, i think - like trump, and rob ford - that doug's sloganeering style is part of the transformation of politicians into celebrities. the fact that doug has no obvious grasp of policy and is planning on managing the biggest province (an a 300-billion dollar debt) armed with the same tooks that he's used to run his inherited sticker factory, is really no problem. it would be a problem for a politician, but not for a celebrity. ask yourself whether ignorance or flip-flopping has ever really hurt kim kardashian.

-mike

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

his policies aren't informed by any over-arching philosophy. he says "cut taxes," and "reduce waste," but never tells us which taxes he wants cut, but how much, or what his metric is for deciding what's 'waste' and what's essential.


Yes Ford will do well with the Ford Nation base and others by purposely being vague. They know that specific policy and platform details mean little to these sorts of voters. All they hear is "Tax Cut", "Balanced Budget", and "Cut Waste"! However, even a cursory look into the current situation in Ontario, would reveal that, that is impossible, to deliver on right now. If a government was to actually physically do that, there would have to be severe cuts in services*, and large job losses in the government work sector.

On the Waste part, I'm sure there are, to use Doug's word "efficiencies" to be found. But not the $billions that are claimed up front. Doug has already used the lie about how he and Rob Ford found $1billion in "effciencies" at the City of Toronto. No they did not!

*Ironically, the services that most often get cut in these situations, are the ones that often most help and advantage a large number of people in the group that would vote for Doug Ford aka Ford Nation!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

• What worries me most about Ford becoming leader of the PCs isn't him getting in. Rather, it is that Wynne realises she is going to lose and to save her skin approaches the NDP about entering into an agreement

Those sorts of Coalition Governments, while distasteful to many, are perfectly legal in the British Westminster System that we use. They are more common in Europe, and many governments exist in that form - in fact the German Government is currently a coalition. And it happens regularly in the UK as well. The current provincial Government on BC is the NDP, in coalition with the Green Party!

Here in Canada for some reason even the hint at it and people tend to go crazy. Like they have been cheated somehow - again they need to understand, that in our system of government constitutionally, this is allowed. It is a possibility. I don't know why people go deranged.

There is way more alignment between the Wynne Liberals and the Horvath NDP, than with either Party and now Doug Ford's PC Party - the latter are clearly the outliers. Given the way the numbers are lining up, I would not be surprised if that is the outcome here in Ontario - a Liberal/NDP Coalition Government.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

i actually think that in some cases a minority or a coalition government can be a good thing - it forces more compromise and consensus. it might slow things down a bit, but even that can be a good thing in some circumstances.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Once again you missed the point. The legality isn't the issue. The ethics are.

Once again you missed the point. The legality isn't the issue. The ethics are.

Why is it unethical?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

lastly, i think - like trump, and rob ford - that doug's sloganeering style is part of the transformation of politicians into celebrities. the fact that doug has no obvious grasp of policy and is planning on managing the biggest province (an a 300-billion dollar debt) armed with the same tooks that he's used to run his inherited sticker factory, is really no problem. it would be a problem for a politician, but not for a celebrity.

I'm tired of "politicians" like Trump and Ford coming in, loudly claiming what they will do as if they speak for the "common" person. I find it both demeaning and the fact that they don't have a clue how governments actually work, largely a waste of time. They get into office and realize they can't actually do what they thought and we end up with the province/country standing still because nothing gets done.

I joined the PC party of Canada and Ontario but when Ford won the nomination, I will be abstaining from voting for the PC party.

Because she wouldn’t have s mandate to govern. Wynne is one of the least popular Premiers in history. Some would go so far as to say she is corrupt. If she fails to gain even a simple majority the will of the people is clear - an absolute majority want someone else to lead Ontario. To then turn aound and say you are going to govern anyway, while being held ransom to the NDP, would be shameful. I wouldn’t put it past her (I think she is a vile woman) but if this is her intention she should state it now and lay out what he framework with the NDP would look like before the election. The same goes with my desire to see the substance of Ford’s policies. Let us, the electorate, understand the details and vote on them.

so are you angry that ontario has a parliamentary system, or that wynne currently leads it?

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Neither.

What point are you trying to make?

well, the idea that the party in power doesn't have a mandate because the other parties, combined, have more votes than they do is a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of how a parliamentary democracy works.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Pretty much this. The leading party in a Coalition will still get to do what they want to do, but they will have to compromise on some things to get it done. This isn't necessarily a bad thing.

It's not like the NDP will be running the show.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Complete and utter nonsense.

I think you need to look up the definition of "legitimate mandate".

We are so screwed. Sigh.......

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I'm fairly liberal. In the last few elections I have voted for the liberal party. But I really do not like Wynn. Until about a month ago I was willing to vote for the PC..... now I just don't know. I can't bring myself to vote for Ford but at the same time I do not like what Wynn is doing. I also fear that voting NDP will split the left-vote and get Ford in.

I may have to vote for Wynn and wish for a minority government. Hopefully it doesn't last too long and the leaders change in the interim.

And so is the shit show we have before us. No to Wynne and the criminal Liberals. No to Ford and his clown car. Horwath and the NDP? We screw that up and we end up with the mistake of Premier Bob a la Andrea. Can we find a reset button for this mess? Who is the least awful among the choices we have?

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A false humanity is used to impose its opposite, by people whose cruelty is equalled only by their arrogance

A lot of people relate to you, including me. Its too bad the Wynne didn't step down and let a new leader take over who might at least attempt to give the Liberals a fresh face. I never thought I'd vote for her again but then she's IMO a lesser evil than Ford. I would maybe vote NDP but as you say, splitting the left could give Ford the win. At any rate, I suspect a minority government.

Agreed, just because he doesn't like the outcome doesn't make it unethical, or "wrong".

Plus, who is foolish enough to actually believe a party will honour their mandate? (sort of pink, but not really).

You wanna what's weird? I ran into a guy from Ont. tonight at Mi's (it's beside Bubba Junkfoods) and he had no idea that Dough Ford was the new leader of the Ontario PC's! Must be nice to be in paradise long enough to forget how f'd up Canada really is!

Re-read the thread. This isn't what I was saying.

FYI, according to a poll in the Toronto Star 71.2% of people want to know "what politicians have planned and how their policies will affect me". I wholeheartedly agree with your "sort of pink, but not really" statement, so was surprised that such a large number appear to consider platform policies when choosing who to vote for.

That's bullshit. People might say that's what they want but really most people vote for the person they find most appealing.

Doug Ford is going to win. What does he have planned? Nothing. He knows nothing, he spouts pointless garbage like "getting rid of the elites" and "cleaning up the mess" but none of it means anything concrete.

But he resonates with people. So he will win. (It also helps that Wynne is pretty universally disliked)

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I would suggest keeping the details to a minimum so that he can get his feet under the desk, see what he's inherited

That's a political trap people fall into year after year.

A new government promises the world while campaigning and then a few months after they win, claim that the previous government left the books far worse than anyone thought so they won't be able to deliver. It's complete BS.

The only reason Ford can't cost his promises is because he has no clue. He is making vague sweeping statements like "finding efficiencies" and is simply following the populist playbook that so many are using around the world to get elected. I can't believe people in Ontario are going to fall for it.

I'm a member of the Ontario PC party Ford is making it impossible for me to vote for him.

i'll be curious to see about that. he's got all the populism but zero of the charisma of his brother. they're both ignorant, entitled grifters, but rob at least came off as loveably harmless, or messed-up, or something. but doug often comes across as more mercenary and vicious, i think.

rob also lived a more everyman life - drove a shitty car and lived in a shitty house and wore ill-fitting clothes, even though he was rich on inherited cash. doug cruises around in a cadillac and his wife is notorious for posting instagram stories of shopping sprees and trips and stuff.

i don't know - he's won the nomination, so he's already come this far. but i do wonder if he'll tank in rural ridings or areas where rob's "i'm your everyman superintendent" model of governance won't work.

exciting times, anyway.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I think Doug Ford is a complete buffoon and a douche to boot, there is no way in hell I would vote for him. But I think that a lot of people view him as a more competent version of Rob Ford. I really don't know where they are getting that idea but I think it's out there.

The rural areas though are getting reamed with hydro costs. They are uber pissed at Wynne. So the only question remains is, will they vote NDP or PC. Polls seem to think that everyone is moving toward the PC and NDP is not really gaining all that much ground.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

yeah, i think maybe as a sales pitch that's he best play - Rob 2.0, the new 'de-bugged' version.

a competent set of opponents would absolutely destroy this guy - a drug-dealing bully who's on record as hating public life, wildly uninformed about policy, and a spoiled trust-fund kid who was born on 3rd base running his dad's sticker factory. he should be a giant, walking bullseye.

but my feeling is that the past few provincial (and even, arguably, federal) elections come down to 'least-worst' choices and unfocused fights between weak opponents. people keep tripping over their own toes, shifting their platforms, fighting on the wrong fronts. it seems like it should be easy for an organized party with a coherent plan to win . . . and yet, here we are.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I think Doug Ford is a complete buffoon and a douche to boot, there is no way in hell I would vote for him. But I think that a lot of people view him as a more competent version of Rob Ford. I really don't know where they are getting that idea but I think it's out there.

I agree with that. I moved from BC so was not in Ontario during Rob Ford's time and didn't know much about Doug. I liked some of the things he was saying but as I listened more closely realized he really has no clue about how things work and is simply making populist statements to get votes without any idea of specific policies or how things work.

I also thought he would be more competent but now I doubt it. He is simply pandering to votes as all politicians do but he really has no clue.

I can’t believe that I am saying this but I will likely vote NDP.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I am pretty centre so don’t really have a dog in this fight, but I see a lot of dislike of the NDP but I am not sure why they are more feared/hated than the libs.

The libs basically spend as much or more than the NDP claims it will and Howarth is way more trust worthy than crooked Wynne. So why the hate on for the NDP?

Look at Notley out west - she is a lot more business (oil) friendly than the Ontario libs if you ask me.

The libs and ndp are pretty interchangeable on platform but the liberals have a terrible track record of hypocracy and bad judgement so if you can’t/won’t for Ford then it seems the npd is the better anti-wynne choice.

i'll be curious to see about that. he's got all the populism but zero of the charisma of his brother. they're both ignorant, entitled grifters, but rob at least came off as loveably harmless, or messed-up, or something. but doug often comes across as more mercenary and vicious, i think.


Indeed - there is an evil/nasty streak in Doug. He always seems just below the boiling point and ready to go off. He get's flustered and frustrated easily, and seems ready to strike back at any moment.

As a City of Toronto Councillor, his only time in elected office, simply put, he was terrible! - http://spacing.ca/...arently-very-little/ - and now he's potentially going to be running the Province - which is actually the 17th or 18th largest economy in the world!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I can’t believe that I am saying this but I will likely vote NDP.


The way this election is shaping up, it actually behooves each one of us to go to an all-candidates meeting in our ridings, and listen carefully to each of the candidates, even ask a hard question or two, and then vote for the one each of us feel would best represent us in the Ontario Legislature - that is the way the system is supposed to work.

Given the current state of affairs on Ontario, despite my Liberal leanings, had I been impressed with the Local PC Candidate AND I felt OK with the PC Leader (Note Patrick Browne allegedly has some flaws, but otherwise I thought he was a pretty good guy and the People's Guarantee platform made sense), there a good chance that I would have voted PC. Not now - not even if the PC Candidate in my riding impresses me. Doug Ford, is a lying, incoherent buffoon! He does not even have the full support of the PC Party or even of Caucus. 4 or 5 good friends of mine who are life-long Tories, will NOT be voting PC they tell me!

Maybe the Green Party? I'll see what they have to say at the All Candidates meeting.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I can’t believe that I am saying this but I will likely vote NDP.

The NDP are fighting tooth and nail with the Liberals to see who can spend the most. It's very telling to me that parties think they have to spend more to attract voters and that's because they do. People have become so dependent on government to solve all their problems that anyone who hints at tax cuts or smaller government is the devil incarnate.

I couldn't bring myself to vote for the Liberals, NDP or Ford so I'll abstain even though I hate not voting.

People have become so dependent on government to solve all their problems that anyone who hints at tax cuts or smaller government is the devil incarnate.

In kind of goes both ways.

The debt, as I mentioned is starting to become a concern. What's failed to be mentioned is that the Ontario economy has had a great two years. It's one of the best performing regions in all of North America right now. Doug Ford keeps going on and on about how awful, and terrible it all is. Knowing Doug, his "research" on this was talking to a guy at a gas-bar in Sault-St. Marie and another at Tim Hortons in Pembroke - both told Doug that everything sucks right now.


Look I'm not saying the Liberals have all the answers here. But they must have been doing SOME things right. As I mentioned, economic growth right now in Ontario is strong, and unemployment is at 20 year lows. Transit in the GTA is FINALLY, starting to get really worked on, and the healthcare system and the education system both score VERY high marks with how they are doing. Those really are the BIG three on the deliverable for a Provincial Government in Canada - Transit/Transportation, healthcare, Education. ALL three score BETTER now than 3 - 4 years ago when the Wynne Liberals last won. So if Wynne is a total disaster as many say ( and I certainly hear that, and see that), then how is it that on those three BIG and very important files things are much better now than 4 years ago?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Is Ontario's economy genuinely great or is it trying to return to a past level? That's what Alberta's economy is doing. So, even if the numbers indicate 'the biggest growth in the country', it's a dishonest metric if it's only returning an old mark. And frankly, Ontario has been in the shit hole for a while and Alberta fell further faster and the end result is economies that look like they're growing when in reality they're actually only recovering. Recovery is not growth.

racin_rusty wrote:

Is Ontario's economy genuinely great or is it trying to return to a past level? That's what Alberta's economy is doing. So, even if the numbers indicate 'the biggest growth in the country', it's a dishonest metric if it's only returning an old mark. And frankly, Ontario has been in the shit hole for a while and Alberta fell further faster and the end result is economies that look like they're growing when in reality they're actually only recovering. Recovery is not growth.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/06/04/ontario-job-growth-by-governing-party_n_5445646.html?utm_hp_ref=ca-ontario-economy


I found this interesting. Highest job growth under the Peterson liberals and Harris/Eaves conservatives. Next comes Bill Davis. Worst is McGuinty/Wynne aside from Bob Rae's gov't. On the other hand Bob Rae got dealt a very bad hand. He went to New York to borrow money to fund gov't and was told no. McGuinty also was dealt the great recession but could borrow as much as he wanted and benefit from all the extra room to tax given the austerity of gov't spending in the Harris years. Nevertheless with a much bigger population than during the Bill Davis years job growth in Ontario is still weaker. So overall I think job growth in Ontario is as you say recovery not growth.


On a personal level as a family doc I feel like I have made out like a bandit during the McGuinty years. As had almost all gov't paid workers. Mostly due to the whole family health team thing. Which is in my opinion one of the biggest scandals of the last ten years in Ontario.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

The elephant in the room with respect to Ontario is truly the cost of utilities and now it's become a problem for Alberta too. Two of Canada's economic engines are being run by idiots and the third hasn't had enough time to wreck their own economy yet as they've not been in power long enough.

This was in today's Globe and Mail: Auditor-General blasts 'bogus' accounting strategies in Ontario. The summary is that the Auditor-General believes the financial and accounting structure of the Fair Hydro Plan was designed to "avoid reporting the costs of rate reductions on Ontario's public accounts, thus allowing the government to falsely claim it had a balanced budget".

The elephant in the room with respect to Ontario is truly the cost of utilities and now it's become a problem for Alberta too. Two of Canada's economic engines are being run by idiots and the third hasn't had enough time to wreck their own economy yet as they've not been in power long enough.


Solutions? Ideas?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Don't do stupid things with power plants when clearly not ready.

A family member is a health team doc and wow is it ever free money.

Every time I hear the OMA cry poor on behalf of family doctors I laugh to myself as I think about how much my relative gets paid for so little - esp as compared to the old days.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-liberals-daycare-election-budget-1.4594803 Wynne is now promising free daycare (well paid for with borrowed money) for children from 2 and half until junior kindergarden. That's a 2.2 billion dollar cost. If you are opting to be a stay at home parent with young children you may as well shoot yourself I guess. Add to the 2.2 billion rebuild of Sick Kids. I'd vote NDP before I'd vote for her. As I have said before as I am in quasi rural riding my vote won't count. I may be voting with my feet in a few years though. I think the liberals are worried about losing though and that is why they are making so many spending announcements.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

It is rather sad really. The average gp who was doing quality work used to see 5-6 patients per hour in a mixed family practice doing physicals, bp check sore throats ear infections some mental health stuff etc. Four an hour is pretty standard now, when they are there. The average family doc used to be in their office 4 to 4 and a half days a week from 9 to 5. Now 2.5 days a week is pretty standard. I'm not making this stuff up.

The doc beside me in the fht works monday afternoon from 1 to 4. Tuesday 10 to noon and 1 to 4. Wednesday off. Thursday is a repeat of Tuesday and Friday is 930 to noon. For that she gets 300 K a year minus about 100K of overhead. If she knew how to bill properly she would probably clear 250 K a year. No weekends. One evening clinic for three hours once every three weeks. Eight weeks of holiday in a year and its unusual for a day of clinic to be not cancelled at least once every 2 weeks. Another doc at another site was in his office monday and tuesday only and had 50 percent more patients than I do. Don't know what the patients are supposed to do from Wednesday to Friday. He recently quit to start a pain clinic.

I looked at our NPs schedule yesterday. 8 patients in a day . The only one that would take me more than 15 minutes to complete was a first prenatal visit.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I dunno - i'd be curious to see this costed out. maybe it's just about location or age, but i personally know a fair few people who have dropped out of the work force because of child care costs. if you make, say, 40k per year, spending 20k to send your kids to day care, it doesn't add up. so you leave work and stay at home for several years, and then re-entering the workforce is really tough.

meanwhile the state loses that Labour, and it's its tax revenue. plus, it sort of loses the money it spent training you for a career you've left.

anyway.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Wynne is now promising free daycare

I'd like to ask Wynne how she defines "free".

Of course she's offering tax payer funded daycare, she knows she's in deep shit and now they're throwing "freebies" at the wall to see what sticks. Of course "free" daycare will be a big one with tight money families, unfortunately they don't realize that either the provincial or federal government will figure out some way to claw back the 'free' daycare.

I work in banking and insurance (premises/cap/maintenance/etc) as it relates to the above...also live in BC where they are looking at doing the same thing....

We have about 500 employees and about 90% are women, the advantage or correlation is that banking hours often coincide with daycare/school hours.

I would support this if some how I could square the circle that Wynn/Horgan and (likely) Notely won’t eff it up.

Side note, wife and I don’t have kids, and pay a lot of taxes. (Relative)

If this increased hours to work for already qualified and trained people as opposed to the rabbit hole of recruitment/retention....

2c

Maurice

The doc beside me in the fht works monday afternoon from 1 to 4. Tuesday 10 to noon and 1 to 4. Wednesday off. Thursday is a repeat of Tuesday and Friday is 930 to noon. For that she gets 300 K a year minus about 100K of overhead. If she knew how to bill properly she would probably clear 250 K a year. No weekends. One evening clinic for three hours once every three weeks. Eight weeks of holiday in a year and its unusual for a day of clinic to be not cancelled at least once every 2 weeks.

What I'm going to say here is going to sound very un-progressive and not-2018

I recall reading something a few years back, about how the big push to get more women into medicine in Canada, that started back in the late 1980's, and saw a huge surge in women as practicing doctors, has had a dramatic impact on the delivery of medical services across Canada - most of it not good. Note this is NOT questioning the skill of those women doctors in ANY way, more their work habits as it relates to other things and this is where it get's awkward.

1. Many women GP's, prefer NOT to have a clinic of their own, just working Part-Time or doing locums here and there, as well as the need to take time off when they have children of their own. This has lead to the hop-scotch patterns of availability that you speak of for GPs.

2. On the specialists side, many women doctors have not chosen to go into the harder-core surgical specialties, things like Orthopedic Surgery as an example, leaving those specialties vulnerable to shortages of surgeons and specialists, and thus longer wait times. The women doctors who do chose to specialize have, tended to chose the less demanding specialties.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

no, that was my understanding too. more women than men in med school, and women disproportionately choosing general practice over the specialities. (i wouldn't say 'less demanding,' though - i knew lots of people desperate to get into things like dermatology and radiology because the hours are easy and the pay is great, whereas general practice can actually be a real slog.)

anyway, then more women working part-time, especially since, as you say, they're having families.

there's a lot going on here. the medical education system is just busted, for a start, but beyond that you could cite family leave policy too. lots of female MDs might have to take leave because their husbands can't - even in 2018 it's common enough to find that women get several months for mat leave and dads get a few days for pat leave. open that system up and maybe (maybe?) more women would be back to the workplace sooner and more men would be sharing the childcare load.

-mike

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I'd like to ask Wynne how she defines "free".


Wynne's getting beaten up on all fronts, but a really BIG one for me that I can actually see legit, measurable progress on is Transit. I actually see stuff getting done now, physically with GO-Transit.

The numbers here are daunting, and big, but the fact of the matter is the GTA was woefully behind the time in terms of the public transit infrastructure that it had. It had been let drift for too long. It's worth noting that the last time the Conservatives were in power, was when Mike Harris, killed the Eglington Subway, and made huge other cut-backs in transit spending. Because these projects have 5 - 15 year time-lines, it often takes that long to see the negative impacts of changes made . . or the positives of positive impacts.


Traffic congestion in the GTA is collectively costing in excess of $6billion. It's also having a dramatic negative social impact on many people's lives. We've kind of reached Maximum Car Capacity, so the only way to improve things is to make the Public Transit system better.


It should be noted, that when it comes to transit, Doug Ford has no idea what he's talking about. This is a file, where he has been certifiably, and easily proved, completely incompetent and wrong! He supported his Brother Rob Ford in killing the Transit City plan for the City of Toronto. He's been factually wrong on numerous other transit issues. It's still unclear if he actually knows what an LRT is!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

she very obviously means 'free at point of sale, and comp'd/heavily subsidized by the state, which in turn is funded by taxes and revenues from state properties.'

this should be apparent. but several successive waves of politicians at all 3 levels of government (and many loud media voices) have succeeded in convincing people that stuff shouldn't cost anything, and that the government only taxes you to be mean. stuff costs money. our mission is not to debate that fact, but to decide what stuff we want and how much we're willing to pay for it. it's strange and sad that the discourse is increasingly just ending at incredulity about taxes rather than some decision about spending priorities.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

this should be apparent. but several successive waves of politicians at all 3 levels of government (and many loud media voices) have succeeded in convincing people that stuff shouldn't cost anything, and that the government only taxes you to be mean. stuff costs money. our mission is not to debate that fact, but to decide what stuff we want and how much we're willing to pay for it. it's strange and sad that the discourse is increasingly just ending at incredulity about taxes rather than some decision about spending priorities.


Yes, and two main perpetrators of that, have been Rob Ford and Doug Ford.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

How much has Wynne really had to do with this? Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this progress the product of Metrolinx's Big Move (i.e., Dalton McGuinty) as well as John Tory's SmartTrack initiative (to say nothing of his ability to be less acerbic than his predecessor and negotiate with the other levels of government)? I wholeheartedly agree with you on the progress itself though and that any reprise of the "War on Cars" rallying cry must be shouted down.

These things are true. Having said that male docs are working much less as they used to as a group. They see their female counterparts and are starting to say, "Why am I busting my ass?" In a family health team docs are paid per pt per year payment for the most part is de-coupled from how many times you see pts. So your pay is governed by how many pts you have. For the most part docs who are in their office three or less days per week don't seem to enroll many less patients than those that are there 4-5 days per week. (What a surprise eh?) The go getters spend the rest of their time in the emerg or hospital making extra money.

If the liberals were smart they would have done something like said for every 500 patients in your practice you must actually be seeing people say 8 hours per week. The male and female specialists are still fee for service for large part. The female specialists I see tend to work very hard as hard as their male counterparts.

On the transit front the first day it was open I rode the subway from Vaughan to downtown. That was long overdue. They should run that line parallel to the 400 all the way to Newmarket.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Geez, thats sounding pretty neanderthal-ish... (/pink / not pink)

To some, this would be a perfect example of why pushing for 100% gender equality is not a smart move. As long as women get pregnant and have the babies, and not the men, society overall will benefit in some ways from a lack of "equality". Note, I am not talking wage or benefits, just that requiring a 50/50 male/female balance in all occupations may not be a realistic goal.

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Starting from scratch...

On the transit front the first day it was open I rode the subway from Vaughan to downtown. That was long overdue. They should run that line parallel to the 400 all the way to Newmarket.


There's no need for that, as we now have more or less all day GO-Train service on the Union-Barrie line. There is a link station with the GO-Train line at theDownsview station on the Spadina line which is brilliant for those further north who wanted to go to mid-town Toronto, say to Yorkdale Mall*

I live a 10 min. walk from the Aurora GO-Train station. I can be at Union Station, from my front door in Aurora in just over 60 min - skipping completely over the traffic mayhem, and bedlam in between. I go downtown for meetings maybe ounce a week. It's so civilized.

*Wynne just proposed better integration and savings for those (like myself) who use the Presto cards

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

The great thing about people like you is that you think these things through. Gov't types particularly those who never worked in the private sector (I think that is Wynne) don't see the pitfalls and their implementation sucks. I'm not saying Doug Ford has any private sector talent to speak of either though. Another Liberal fiasco in Ontario was efforts to built a province wide electronic medical record a number of years ago. They didn't have the in house talent to do it so they hired all sorts of consultants. The consultants proceeded to bill all sorts of things as business expenses including massages etc. And then they never produced the system. Something like a billion dollars wasted.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Why do you hate Ontario?

They won’t win.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

People in Alberta said that too.

Remember Bob Rae? I think he was as shocked as anyone that he won

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Meet Alberta's "Health" minister...

On the bright side the BC NDP/Green coalition is doing a pretty good job of teaching our premier about the value of 'social license'. She's probably going to be another cynical conservative after BC's done with her. Oh well, reality sucks.

Why do you hate Ontario?

Well if this past week is any indication, and Doug Ford does win, and it's leaning in that direction, then God Help us.

Last week when Ford was distinctly and obviously wrong on two key points about the Liberal Budget, in a media Q & A, and a reporter was pressing him on this point, Doug then accused the Reporter of being wrong! Yikes!


Doug also, said that he'll "cut the CBC budget" when he's Premier. At this point I wondered, does Doug know he's running for Premier and not Prime Minister? (CBC is federally funded). If he's got basics like this wrong, how can he handle the really important stuff?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

God help us all. Tonight I had a discussion at family gathering about our current political state with two brother in laws both who are teachers. Even they are distressed by our current tax and spend direction. And then there is Doug Ford. Hopefully we get a minority of some sort and a reset in a short period of time.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Can you find the link to where Doug Ford actually says he’ll cut the CBC budget? Just asking because it’s already been debunked as fake news. Twitter doesn’t count BTW since that’s the source of the fakery.

Agree. Ford didn't. He made a joke during a press conference. Here's the recording: .

At around 1:15 and in response to a CBC reporter wanting to ask a question Ford can be heard saying something to the effect of "Ah, my pals at the CBC... I know where we can cut some money!" It seems Fleck is merely regurgitating Leftist spin as fact?

Actually, I read it a MacLeans article IIRC and the columnist said the source was the Ontario provincial NDP website. The piece was about fake news and how no one should be quick to attribute fake news to one particular political spectrum.

Agreed. Fake news is attributable to all spectrums. But in this case the source, I believe, was Press Progress. Unless I am mistaken I also believe Press Progress is a project of the Broadbent Institute, an initiative set up by Jim Broadbent the former federal NDP leader. So I will change "Liberal" to "Leftist" in the post above.

It seems Fleck is merely regurgitating Leftist spin as fact?

Maybe/Maybe not!

You see, the thing with Doug, is you never know if he's joking or not. When Doug and Rob Ford briefly had their radio show, the one time, I listened to the show it was complete and total incoherence. There was a section where they were riffing on the traffic in Toronto and the topic of cyclists came up, Doug actually said that he would physically threaten violence if a cyclist cut him off - was he joking? I don't know, because, you never know with him. His tone of voice on the radio that day, was NOT humorous one! We know that he's VERY pro-car, and anti-all other forms of transportation, so based on position and repeat past behaviour, there is a good chance that Doug was serious about physically hurting a cyclist for cutting in front of him while driving!

Plus, he's been caught lying on numerous occasions, was warned on several other occasions by the City of Toronto ethics commissioner, and had to withdraw a statement and apologize for slanderous statements he made about the then Chief of Police.


He's NOT been an exemplary politician by any stretch - far from it.


But there is a good chance that he will be Premier. I don't know what to say, other than it's another example, that we seem to be living in this upside down world!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/subsidized-daycare-what-british-columbia-can-learn.pdf Here is a paper analyzing Quebec's experience with heavily subsidized daycare. It came nowhere near to paying for itself. Gains in employment during the 20 time period analyzed came in much higher levels in women aged 55 and over well beyond child bearing age. Amoungst women 25-44 the employment rate barely budged. See page 6

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

So it looks like, Doug Ford and the PC's will be campaigning with no real platform, limited "policy" and severely restricting the access of the media to Doug Ford - http://nationalpost.com/...xperts#comments-area

I'm guessing since the election of Doug as Leader, while they have been putting up a "good" front for the Ontario PC Party it's been open turmoil and chaos behind the scenes. Doug has done a couple of 180's already in terms of what was unanimous party policy - just a month ago. I have a number of Tory friends who have been life-long Tory Party members, two have even sat as an MP Federally, as Tories, they have all told me that they can't bring themselves to support Doug - so when Doug and others go on and on about how 100% of the party is behind them - that's a lie!

Regarding the media thing - in a way you "understand" this. Doug has forever had open disdain for the media. Has called them all "liars" and worse, many times. He get's flustered/flustered easily when asked hard detailed questions, and routinely makes stuff up, openly lies, and/or lashes right back at the media in a combative fashion. So keeping him as far away from the media, for Doug, is a good thing.

But having no policy, no platform, and no access to the media - is this really the kind of person or party that you want as Premier and in power?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

This is actually very smart on behalf of his handlers. Maybe they've learned something from previous PC campaigns after all? I can only imagine how much of a field day the media would have if Ford turned up and did something like this <half pink>:

Remember when Stockwell Day came into a campaign/press even on a jetski? The press savaged him for that. If JT did that he would be a rockstar. Look forward to Kathleen playing the gender and phobia card. I really don't like Doug Ford but we need to stop the bleeding in Ontario. Twice as much debt as California and multiples less of an economy.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Can't. Unsee. Zumba. Video.

Why? Why would you do that?!?

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Stockwell Day was an absolute fucking moron. The guy that wanted to build more prisons on the premise that sentences were too short and we're just not arresting enough criminals. The most idiotic Harperite ever in my less than humble opinion.

BTW JT is no longer a rock star. He's a pretty face in an empty suit and can't even go to India and dress up in traditional costume without coming off as a clown. But compared to Scheer he's still a genius. I'd never thought I'd vote for Wynne again but Doug Ford?

The Cons aren't going to win by pampering the alt right crowd.

Let me guess, you're a member of the English Catholic Teachers ;-)

But hey, what's another $31 million: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/...union-31-million-as/

Wynn is an ideologue as nasty as the alt right. Quebec is now more creditworthy than Ontario https://www.fraserinstitute.org/...tworthy-than-ontario. They have had surplus in each of the last 4 years and are close approaching Ontario's per capita debt. I am currently helping fund a lawsuit against the Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons who have declared war on docs who try to exercise conscience rights. And it's Kathleen Wynn who pushed them in this direction. I'd like to retire in the province and spent time with my grandkids (If I ever get any). But I don't want to pay for all her nonsense. At this point its becoming personal. I just sent the cons a political donation. Much as I dislike Doug Ford I am willing to roll the dice now.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Scheer is far more politically astute than Trudeau ever will be, it's really too bad you're so blind with hatred. OTOH - I am amazed. Was it difficult to post without mentioning an American? That must have taken quite a bit of discipline! Hooray for you!

the trouble with this strategy is always that, sooner or later, the leopard comes back and eats your face, too.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

At this point its becoming personal. I just sent the cons a political donation. Much as I dislike Doug Ford I am willing to roll the dice now.

I did the same even though I am struggling to vote for Ford. I hope he surrounds himself with good people. I'm really voting for the Party and not the leader but with the Liberals and NDP determined to increase the size of government and the debt despite a strong economy, there just isn't a reasonable alternative.

I was prepared to vote conservative if it was Elliot or Mulroney. Heck, give me any generic politician who can manage some degree of fiscal restraint - in a booming economy no less!

My rule is that you can't complain if you don't vote. My riding is a prominent PC member anyway so I doubt it will change, but I lived through the Rob Ford years in Toronto and have no desire for a province wide repeat.

This might well be the first time I spoil a ballot or deliberately pick a fringe candidate as a protest vote.

I was prepared to vote conservative if it was Elliot or Mulroney.

I voted in the leadership race and had Mulroney first and Elliott second. I put Ford 4th (you have to rank each candidate) but I only had 1 vote...

They didn't call her dad "lyin' Brian" for nothing. Last thing CDN politics is another Mulroney. I'd even vote Ford before anybody connected to that name. But that's just my opinion.

Looks like Wynne and Horwath are beginning to do this, starting with Tanya Granic Allen? As much as I may not agree with her "social conservatism" if what she says is racist and homophobic (based on the contents of this article alone) I'm honestly going to give up.

I'm willing to bet that Doug will win but not so sure he will form a majority government, but if he does, the chaos at Queen's Park will make Trump's White House look like Tranquility Palace in comparison to what Doug will bring.

I'm willing to bet that Doug will win but not so sure he will form a majority government, but if he does, the chaos at Queen's Park will make Trump's White House look like Tranquility Palace in comparison to what Doug will bring.


More big miss-steps for Doug - he said this week that he would fire the head of Hydro One on the first day that he was Premier - sounds good, but it's NOT his responsibility to do that.

Before Doug goes any further and REALLY sticks his foot in his mouth, a regular occurrence with him, he had better go on some deep and detailed primer of what the Premier of Ontario does and what their responsibilities are. He seems way in over his head*. The Ontario economy is the 17 or 18th largest in the world!

* But for supporters this is OK. We don't NEED to have a plumber to do the plumbing, or a heart surgeon to do the heart operation - just some good guy with a few blustery sound bites!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

LOL - Great cartoon


This started with Rob Ford then on to Trump and now Doug Ford - politicians who wear their ignorance "proudly", and at the same time slamming, anyone who might actually know what's going on as one of those evil "elites" who are wrecking and ruining everything!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Have you read Doug's latest take on the minimum wage. Clearly the guy has no concept at all of basic math.

https://globalnews.ca/...imum-wage-plan-math/

Have you read Doug's latest take on the minimum wage. Clearly the guy has no concept at all of basic math.


This weeks foot-in-mouth moment for Doug was his pronouncement that, to lower the price of house in the GTA, he's open the Greenbelt to development. Then he went 180 on this less than 24 hours later - saying, "the people have spoken" and he'll maintain the Greenbelt lands.

Doug tried to turn this into the fact that he's the great listener and in contact with the people, but it actually shows, a key bad tendency of his, that he'll say, anything to anyone, at just about any time! That when backed into a corner, he just makes stuff up!

The avoidance of the media goes on, going so far to produce their own "Ford Nation TV", with a fake reporter (a former Ford Press Secretary), asking completely softball questions, with an all platitudes approach. Doug said they had to do this because the media was not giving him a fair shake. The media reports on what Doug says/does - when he's lying, making stuff up, being a bully and belligerent, and they are just reporting on that, what's not being fair?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I trust you are watching the leadership debate? Wynne is embarrassing herself, and the audience applause is telling. She is a disgrace.

Did I just hear that right? Only 14 people out of 5,500 polled thought Wynne won the debate?

Sure,BUT just the Ford name itself is even more disgraceful. His bro was a fucking joke and so is he. He’ll win though. That’s just politics and human nature. Folks are tired of 15 yrs under the same party rule. A monkey and ape could lead the other two parties and one of em would win.

We are definitely plumbing the depths. I just cannot agree with the Liberals fiscal mismanagement and deceit. I like Horwath’s social platform, but it is all rainbows and unicorns without a proper accounting.

I think we have to change the title of this thread. If he wins the election we can change it back to Doug Ford wins. I keep having to remind myself every time I see it that the election has not happened yet.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Done

I'm 99% sure he will win but Ontario will certainly be more careful next time for what they wish for. Weird times in North American politics these days.

Did I just hear that right? Only 14 people out of 5,500 polled thought Wynne won the debate?


Yes, I watched it all.

Crazy format, that was distracting and all over the place.

There is a visceral dislike the Kathleen Wynne - some of which I understand, and even certain things the government is doing that I'm not happy about. However, on some files, the Wynne government has made extraordinary strides. Take transit - FINALLY in the GTA we are moving forward with substantial Public Transit initiatives. We still have a long way to go, but you can say that it's better now than it was 5 - 10 years ago!

Yet to prove how wacky this debate was, the format and how things are going, when asked via a Twitter poll which politician would, "make your commute to work better", Doug Ford scored 46%, and Wynne was in the teens!! On transit Doug Ford is a disaster. He really has no idea what he's doing/saying. The only time that he's been in elected office, he cancelled the Transit City plan for Scarborough, and he and Rob Ford were responsible for 30% cuts in TTC bus services. Just several months ago Doug was factually on the wrong side of the King Street Pilot project. Doug won't say it, but he's anti-transit and pro-car.

For long stretches of the debate Doug was disconnected and lost. When cornered it was slogan time "finding efficiencies", "No back-room-deals", "Hydro-One boondoggle" . .etc . . He just says these things in a Hail Mary attempt to come up with an answer and it makes him look bad.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I agree Ford was a horrible debater. Surprisingly bad in fact. Stilted and awkward until he was speaking directly to the camera.

I also agree that transit in the city is moving forward. But I disagree that is it due to Wynne. As mentioned before Metrolinx was McGuinty, and a lot of what is happening in the city (like the King Street pilot you reference) is Tory. It is Tory's ability to work with all levels of government that is seeing progress get done.

Take the Downtown Relief Line for instance. I live in Leslieville so attended the Morse School public consultation as the line is set to pass under it from Eastern to Carlaw. They were very clear on three things: (1) people want the work done NOW; (2) ground would not break for at least two years; and (3) that ground may not break at all because the province had been withholding the funding. Sure enough, the next day Wynne pops up on TV promising to underwrite the costs. It is undoubtedly an election bribe but Tory was in the background so good on him. He's getting her back for blocking his plans to put tolls on the DVP to pay for transit.

My fear of course is that things get cancelled after the election. I agree that Ford is pro-car and (I think) loathes cyclists. But I seem to remember him and his brother loving subways as part of their pro-car platform and actually wanted more buses (not less) as a means of eliminating streetcars (which get in the way of their cars). Ford indicated last night that he would upload the responsibility of the subway design and build to the province. That is huge.

Finally, I agree that the format was crazy and especially when CP24 kept on interviewing Jodie Emery, the noted pot activist from Vancouver. She doesn't even live in Ontario and pitting her alongside a social activist and transit activist was hardly impartial.

I watched and as a PC party member kept asking myself how it came down to having Ford as the leader. There were some well qualified PC candidates who could have been infinitely better. It's like the GOP nominating Trump, what on earth were they thinking...

I agree it is like we are in some kind of alternative universe. I seem to recall I guy named John Tory running in the provincial election the same one who is so successfully running Toronto. Couldn't get elected.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I agree it is like we are in some kind of alternative universe. I seem to recall I guy named John Tory running in the provincial election the same one who is so successfully running Toronto. Couldn't get elected.


It's an overused phrase, but "timing is everything", sometimes in life, business and politics.

Doug Ford, is incompetent, unqualified and ill-suited to be the leader of a political party, let alone the Premier of Ontario, but in a month's time, if nothing changes, or dramatic happens, this will be the case.

Doug's timing and benefit is that at just the right moment he caught the Ontario PC Party in complete disarray in the post Patrick Browne debacle, and his and the PC's main opponent, Kathleen Wynne and the Ontario Liberal Party after 15 years in office, are well past their Best-Before date. There is a visceral dislike for Kathleen Wynne that is palpable.

When you take the global measure of Ontario politically it trends to be a bit left of center. The longest serving governments in recent times have been Bill Davis's PC's - and the McGuinty/Wynne Liberals. While they came from different parties both Davis and McGuinty/Wynne stood in about the same position politically - left of center.

With the election of Doug Ford, this is a radical, and abrupt swing and departure from that historical position. People are so fed up and angry, that they really don't seem to care who will be Premier - even someone like Ford, who has the potential to be far, far less than optimal and not really aligning with the provinces historical political position - voters don't seem to care.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I agree Ford was a horrible debater. Surprisingly bad in fact. Stilted and awkward until he was speaking directly to the camera.


Agreed.

For long stretches of the debate, Doug just stood there silent . . saying nothing . . which was probably a good thing (for him). I'm sure the PC Debate Prep team pounded it into Doug . . when in doubt - say NOTHING, and ONLY say these 5 - 6 set things. DO NOT, under any circumstances go off-script or message or let yourself be drawn off by questions from Wynne/Horvath or others.

That being said there were a few moments where Doug got into a bit of trouble and veered into the weeds. He did say that there would be no job cuts when he is Premier (Really??). He also said, that there were no job cuts when he was at Toronto City Council - but that was wrong/a-lie. His best line of the night was about how Kathleen Wynne's government has all the records in the first 5 pages of the Guinness Book of Records after Doug rattled off a bunch of statistics - that were all wrong! And then he seemed to find $5billion in his pocket, as he walked into the CityTV studio for comprehensive transit building in the GTA - not sure where that came from, but as usual, when pressed for more details on where/how for that $5billion? - Doug had no answers!

Because of the crazy and chaotic format it was really hard to pick a "winner". I scored it - Horvath as a win, Doug lost some ground as did Wynne.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

This is what I think makes it so interesting. You've seen such voter disenfranchisement play out in Europe and the United States. Now it seems to be happening here. Ford is about as aligned with the traditional PC party as Trump was with the traditional Republican party, so assuming Ford becomes Premier the question will be the same as when Trump took office - will his election bring about a new political course or will it be an extreme reaction to what went before and limited to one term (or less)? I hope for the former but strongly believe it will be the latter.

will his election bring about a new political course or will it be an extreme reaction to what went before and limited to one term (or less)? I hope for the former but strongly believe it will be the latter.


Winning the election will be the easy part for Doug. Remember when the going got tough, on policy and details at Toronto City Council . . Doug either got very combative and negative, or checked out completely!

Also - despite what he says, Doug has no where near the 100% support of the Ontario PC Party. The Party is fractured and divided now all over the place - and Doug is no unifier!

It's setting up to be a fractious and disruptive, 4 years - that's if Doug and the PC's get a majority. Current polls do suggest this, but I'm guessing there will be a big Doug Ford blunder somewhere along the way, and Andrea Horvath is presenting well, (with rising poll numbers) as a place for disenfranchised Liberals to park their vote - so we could be headed for a minority government situation. This actually might be the best outcome - We'll get some "change", but, Doug, will be constrained in what he can do. Doug won't like that at all, and he will get easily VERY frustrated by all the bureaucracy involved.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

The tactics are getting worse as actors were hired to play the part of PC supporters at Monday's debate rally. A Toronto-based PC candidate offered actors $75 to be present from the start of the rally at 2pm to the end of the debate at 8pm so $12.50 per hour. I thought our minimum wage was higher! In Ford's defense, he (said he) wasn't aware of this situation but I find this extremely inappropriate and downright offensive.

Here's the full story: https://www.thestar.com/...ys-debate-rally.html

@Kid

The only glimmer of hope is I don't think Ontario Conservatives are wedded to Ford like Trump's base is wedded to him.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I think there are a significant amount of folks in Ontario, especially rural Ontario who are REALLY tired about hearing Toronto and their problems and are also really tired hearing about Wynne and the perceived boondoggles she has created/inherited. Same thing with Trump. There were a lot of people who were just sick and tired of everything the status quo was offering and finally said eff it. That sort of thought process got us 4 years of NDP leadership in Ontario too.

Who the hell would do that for only $75? That’s messed up. I’d need at least $500 for my soul.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I live in rural Ontario, in a rural riding that traditionally votes Liberal both provincially and nationally, although it can be close and is not always the case, although mostly. But don't assume all people in the boonie rural ridings are automatic conservatives.

I suspect Doug will win, but most likely will be a one and done term government just like Trump. Remember you heard that first from cerveloguy. :-)

I think there are a significant amount of folks in Ontario, especially rural Ontario who are REALLY tired about hearing Toronto and their problems and are also really tired hearing about Wynne and the perceived boondoggles she has created/inherited. Same thing with Trump. There were a lot of people who were just sick and tired of everything the status quo was offering and finally said eff it. That sort of thought process got us 4 years of NDP leadership in Ontario too.


Mark,

I understand the feelings of rural folks - election and political talk in Ontario tends to be GTA-centric. However, the adult conversation about this, if people are willing to have it and at least listen, is that the GTA represents about 25% of the economy of the whole of the country and over 50% for Ontario.

Poor planning at both the provincial a federal* level on Public Transit, has left the GTA probably about 30 years behind where it really should be. Only now are we starting to move forward on some desperately needed key pieces of infrastructure.

*Here's another political dynamic, that I've been told about by a friend who has been an elected MP in Ottawa. No Federal Politician in Ottawa wants to be seen to be doing Toronto/GTA any favours - such is the anti-Toronto feeling across the rest of the country. Take sports infrastructure. Toronto/GTA has per capita terrible sports infrastructure. The PanAm Games helped with a bit of that "debt", but cities like say, Regina, have better public sports infrastructure than Toronto because, it's OK, for federal MP's to approve funding for outdoor basketball courts in Regina, but NOT in Toronto/GTA. The attitude across the country is Toronto/GTA has everything! Which is wrong, AND it's 25% of the national economy!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I suspect Doug will win, but most likely will be a one and done term government just like Trump. Remember you heard that first from cerveloguy


Well we knew this was coming, and today the final piece of Doug Ford's Impossible Economics was put in place . . a tax cut!

So to sum this is all up, what Doug is promising/saying: Tax cuts - corporate & individual, billions and billions in extra spending on transit & healthcare, no jobs/services cuts, pay down debt/deficit and do ALL of this by finding "efficiencies" in government spending! He's said all of this in the past few days. If you believe it, you believe in the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus!

I really don't know how people can be so easily duped. Hardcore Ford Nation people will stop at the Tax Cut and go, "Whoo-hoo, thanks, Doug", having no idea how the rest of it would work - and it won't, it can't, it's Impossible Economics! When pressed Ford fans - will quickly go, "Wynne's a crook". (Ford supporters seem to love Deflection having no idea what it is) I honestly don't know where that comes from, but at least Kathleen Wynne is being honest about it all - they are NOT hiding the fact that they plan on running a deficit. I'm not a big fan of that - but at least it's not like Doug's Voodoo, Impossible Economics!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

If you think Doug, or trump, will be a one term guy you obviously haven't learned a single thing from their rise to power.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

I do think they're both one term guys. Quite confident about that. Wanna make a bet?

I don't bet, but I'd be more then willing to drag this thread up in the future and ridicule whoever ended up being wrong!

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Trust me. I won't be wrong. :-)

Just quoting this to add to the future embarrassment.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

I don't embarrass very easily. You should realize that by now.

BTW, Doug is promising the voters the moon in his campaign, including tax cuts and increased services with no platform explaining how it will be done. Its going to be a roller coaster next four years in Ontario.

Let’s wait and see. From my slice of Ontario, almost anything can be better than the last four years under Wynne. Almost. I will take the roller coaster if it stops the Liberals lies and corruption (perceived or real).

I find it incredibly ironic and really quite telling that you are espousing Wynne’s ‘honesty’ to demonise Ford.

That's every politicians gamebook. Definitely not specific to Doug, but, the Ford's and Trump's of the world seem to play that game the best. It infuriates me that campaign promises are taken seriously by so many people.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

 https://www.macleans.ca/...-is-gaining-support/


Andrea Horwath new Ontario leader? Should be interesting. Whoever wins is going to have a tough job.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

That is a scary thought. I am old enough to remember the good ole Rae days of the early 90s.

Personally, I will not vote Liberal and give them a pass for all of the scandals under Wynne (and under McGuinty), and I cannot vote for the NDP.

Basically leaves me with two options - either not vote at all or plug my nose and vote PC.

I really dislike Ford but at the end of the day I believe that he's the only one of the 3 that recognizes the precarious situation that Ontario is in.

Vote Green

Many are quick to refer to the Rae government as a reason never to vote NDP again - can you explain exactly what was so terrible about the Rae government as opposed to pretty much every other government? Please take into account the economy at the time. Rae days were a lot better than the layoffs of the Harris years.

Also, don't forget Notley is NDP - her government is pretty centre, and pretty business friendly.

As opposed to not voting?

I habitually vote Conservative but in the end I didn't think Rae was that bad. They had some rocky times particularly early on because of the really bad economy and they had no history in gov't . But they didn't seem to favor any particular group and were willing to acknowledge the situation and get on with sharing the pain. Part of Rae's downfall I think was he asked the public sector unions to share in the pain (think Rae days). My earning potential was cut by about 20 percent under Bob Rae.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I habitually vote Liberal (but not this time) and also didn't think Rae was terrible. The NDP always has the best leaders but then it's amateur hour whenever they come to power because they don't have a great depth of field to chose from when most of their elected members seem to be teachers or unionists. When Rae came to power it was at the start of a horrible recession which would have been bad for any government. Where the NDP has always been good IMO is in minority governments when they hold the balance of power and then they tend to keep things honest. For me the I absolute worst Ontario premier was Mike "slash and burn" Harris. I also view Mulroney and Harper as the two worst PM's in my lifetime. Since all three were Conservatives it should let you guess how I'll vote this provincial election. I just can't vote for Doug.

I've watched enough of the Ontario election to have made up my mind. I am a member of the PC party and will go to vote and then decline my ballot. If you don't vote, they have no way to know if you just passed on the opportunity but they are required to write "declined" on your ballot if you ask them and those ballots are placed in a separate box. It's the only way I can think of to register my disapproval of all the parties.

I figure Dougie will win but God help us if he get's a majority. Chaos is just around the corner.

I was thinking that instead of declining my ballot I could vote for the party where the best outcome would be a minority gov’t but that’s difficult. I live in a solid PC riding so want a protest vote. I just can’t vote Liberal or NDP and I don’t want to reward a candidate like Ford.

I live in a riding where the PC candidate is an ex OPP on full pension, a former fed MP under Harper known as a yes man but who also gets that pension, had his restaurant bought out by the government when they wanted to change the road because it was "too dangerous a location". They gave him full payment for the restaurant that was close to going bankrupt and then have not done anything to change the road, Just a coincidence that he was a MP when that happened. and now the guy is going to run for the provincial PC's. Talk about sucking off the trough. And then he'll be supporting Doug about reducing teacher's pensions, etc. etc. Talk about hypocrisy. I can not morally vote PC this election.

NDP is winning the polls currently.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

That's another disaster waiting to happen. Not a lot to chose from this election. But IMO Doug could be the worst.

I can’t decide what would be worse. Pretty sure green is getting my useless vote.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Many are quick to refer to the Rae government as a reason never to vote NDP again


The NDP platform (Federally) is to increase tax on small business from 15% to 19.5% and to increase the taxable capital gains from 50% of the capital gain to 75%. It is their fundamental belief to increase taxes to pay for MORE social programs which the country just can't keep doing. The percentage of elderly in the country is going up meaning a bigger burden for those working and the NDP just wants to keep throwing "freebies" around. Free or low child-care, heavily subsidized education, expanded healthcare (drugs) and the list goes on and on and on.


They believe that it is government that can solve problem and is the answer to all problems and I believe the complete opposite. I think we should be dramatically reducing government, we don't need them in every single aspect of our lives.


The leader of the NDP doesn't matter, it is their basic belief in socialism that, at least for me, is the problem and why I and a lot of others will simply never vote for them.

Did you watch the debate tonight? Wynne was by far the most experienced, articulate and politically savy, but her time is done. Doug came off as an empty suit used car salesman promising the moon while at the same time offering a 20% tax cut with no specifics on how this was going to happen. At least Horvath was honest. Guess I'm holding my nose and voting NDP. The debate did nothing to make me change my mind.

The biggest problem with the NDP isn't the $1.4 billion error in their maths. We all know they will run an enormous deficit, increase taxes and throw money around like drunken sailors. Rather, it is Horwarth's position that back to work legislation is "very much against our values".

If Horwath gets in the risk is that all of her union cronies will get much fatter, while companies shed jobs by relocating from Ontario (as Magna has already indicated it might) and strikes hold everyone else hostage for extended periods.

I'm not saying you're wrong to hold your nose and vote NDP, I just hope it's a minority government you get so that the other parties can hold her to account.

As an aside, when all is said and done, I would love for there to be a debate about whether Ontario now needs (and would support) a completely new, fiscally responsible but socially progressive political party. It seems to me this is what the majority of us are looking for (centrist - left or right depending on the issue - and led by someone untainted by historical politics and with enough awareness to explain their logic). As the advance polls open I continue to be amazed at the lack of basic common sense amongst each of the "leaders".

At this point I am convinced that the idiots in this province will vote in the NDP. So I will probably vote PC really just as a hope that there is some opposition to the NDP and their free spending.

No, I don't want Doug Ford to be the Premiere. Yes, I will accept some blame if the PCs win a majority and run the same shit show that we are seeing in the US.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

So I will probably vote PC really just as a hope that there is some opposition to the NDP and their free spending.

No, I don't want Doug Ford to be the Premiere. Yes, I will accept some blame if the PCs win a majority and run the same shit show that we are seeing in the US.


In theory the Westminster Parliamentary system is set up so that you can do that - vote for your local representative if they are good and hold your nose when you think about the Party Leader.

But to do this you have to do two things:

1) You have to go to your local All Candidates Meeting, and find out what that local candidate is all about and that you have confidence they will be a good local representative

2) You then have to ride-herd on them while they are in office, with non-stop eMails to the point that you are a PIA.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Option 3). hope that the NDP get a minority with the party you vote for being the opposition. And knowing that they will make it difficult for the NDP to be as stupid as they will likely be with a majority.

Option 3, part two). Hope that the PCs get a minority and that the NDP make life difficult for them.

Basically at this point, I want to see a minority government. I don't want either of these leaders to have free rein.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I'm not saying you're wrong to hold your nose and vote NDP, I just hope it's a minority government you get so that the other parties can hold her to account.


My sense is that is where we are headed - either PC's or the NDP with a minority government and the Liberals holding the balance of power.

It may not be such a bad situation - it will force the wilder elements of both the NDP policy and the PC policy (which we still don't know, but a good assumption is mass cuts to jobs/services - despite Doug's lies on this), to a more moderate situation.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Did you watch the debate tonight? Wynne was by far the most experienced, articulate and politically savy, but her time is done. Doug came off as an empty suit used car salesman promising the moon while at the same time offering a 20% tax cut with no specifics on how this was going to happen. At least Horvath was honest. Guess I'm holding my nose and voting NDP. The debate did nothing to make me change my mind.


Agreed all around.

Wynne "won" the debate, but it will matter little. The dislike for her and the Liberals is visceral. I don't truly understand that. He "sorry/not-sorry" opener, kind of summed it all up. There is baggage. The debt is a concern. And the following is not meant to be a patent endorsement of the Liberals, just a realistic assessment - in some areas, the province is way better now than it was 10 years ago. Transit is one area, where they have REALLY stepped it up. We have a LONG way to go on this, but things are REALLY happening now. Business wise, despite Doug's lies and wrong, info, Ontario is NOT the basket-case that he makes it out to be - most key economic metrics are very good right now. But again this will all matter little on June 7.

Doug Ford put in another performance last night that, makes me shudder, that this man could possibly be the Premier of Ontario in a few days! He's so far in out of his depth it's crazy. He continues to lie, ramble, rant, blunder and bluster along. To reward this sort of incompetence and incoherence to me seems absurd!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Definitely hoping for a minority government. A PC or NDP majority would not be good.

Option 3). hope that the NDP get a minority with the party you vote for being the opposition. And knowing that they will make it difficult for the NDP to be as stupid as they will likely be with a majority.

Option 3, part two). Hope that the PCs get a minority and that the NDP make life difficult for them.

Basically at this point, I want to see a minority government. I don't want either of these leaders to have free rein.


Yes - and I sense that's where we are headed, which is OK - probably a "better" situation than people realize.

It will be fascinating to see what Doug Ford does in either out come - Leader of the Opposition or Premier with a minority Government. Doug will hate both. He does not have ANY of the skills that would make it work - diplomacy, outstanding communicator, balance, flexibility, compassion, able to give-and-take.

That's if Doug even makes it that far. Apparently, he's not polling well in his own riding! It's taken a while, but finally the people of North Etobicoke, seems to be realizing that the Ford family, politically is a bit of a farce!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Yeah, I'll believe that when I see it. I expect Ford to win his riding.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

My favorite Ford Meme - https://twitter.com/.../1001095074913058816

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

doug absolutely hated being a city councillor, for godsake. why on earth would he enjoy being a minority leader? it's all so procedural - building consensus, cooperating, compromising. . . this is the stuff he hates and is very, very bad at. in that respect he's like his brother, or trump - doomed to discover that the CEO mentality simply doesn't work very well in parliamentary democracies.

in fact, opposition leader might be the best job for him, since he'd largely be able to spend his time yelling at clouds (and potholes) without actually have to do much.

but if the conservatives were to lose the election and wanted - as they ought - to spend that time in the wilderness rebuilding their bench and getting set for the next big push, doug would not be the right man for that job.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

He's like Trump in that way. Does anyone think that Trump enjoys all the details that he has to learn whilst president? He wanted to be in charge (or maybe in Trumps case he just wanted more publicity). Anyway, Doug Ford just wants to be in charge.

It wouldn't shock me if he resigned if he doesn't become Premiere.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I agree. My comments about Bob Rae being not so bad relate to him being in office at a time when he could not run much of a deficit spending program. My understanding is his finance minister went to New York was told they wouldn't lend him the money.

Andrea Horvath clearly is okay about increasing spending in a big way.

Hoping we have some sort of minority gov't and have a reset in a year or two.

We continue to not build capacity within the non-gov't sector and within families to take care of things. It will end badly when gov't can no longer deliver.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Watching Ontario politics right now is like seeing a train wreck in slow motion.

You guys are completely fucked either way.

As someone living through our current ndp disaster, I feel for you.

The scary thing is, how do we combat this March to less and less desirable candidates and parties? What's the solution to Ford/trump/theatrical politicians who cater to idiots of our world?

Canadian politics is in a bad place, and its only going to get worse.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Seems to me that our choices are always HYPER POLITICALLY CORRECT vs. ass clown who panders to LCD vs. the spendoholics.

Yay choice!

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

It's truly frightening. I was thinking about this yesterday. I feel like politics in Canada is an ugly tide that as individuals we cannot stop from rising.

Here in BC, the ndp has taken a lot of measures that directly hurt me. They are coming down hard on businesses and landlords, because you know, they are all privileged and flush with cash, yadda yadda. Definitetely not hardworking young families that are sweating their bills, taking risks, not taking vacations, etc.

The number of people who expect government to fix everything is only rising. I'm strongly wondering if it's just time to stop just grumbling about the change and accepting it, and find some way to take advantage or monitize it, but I don't know what that looks like.

I just feel like change is afoot and traditional ways of making a living, like starting a business or being a landlord, are only going to get more difficult.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

i dunno, i think these things go in cycles. other 'traditional ways of making a living' include public-sector work, like education, health care, or the military, and those jobs have gotten more difficult under various governments over the years too. tough to please all the people all the time, especially when you're not in a cooking-hot economy. . .

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Build an alley house!

Then at time of completion value whole property through a legit assessor as “primary”

Lock in value at say 800k$, switch full use of property to “rental”

Then if market drops below locked in value you still have a cap loss, but also likely made a tax free profit.

2c, that’s what we are doing up here. Agreed that the NDP is really going to f$&k our economy.

Maurice

Is it worse than the SoCreds in the 80's ?

I was 6 years old at the end of the eighties and not following politics too closely, so, I couldn't tell you.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

I'd hate to think of Doug Ford with a majority government. There is already an orange haired buffoon in charge south of our border so why would we want something similar in Ontario.

Agreed that the NDP is really going to f$&k our economy.


I lived in BC (Vancouver) in the 1990's ('91 - '01). A great 10 years for me personally, but I was completely dismayed by BC Politics. The NDP was in power for much of that time. Premier Glen Clarke and his NDP Government, was one of the more inept politicians and Gov'ts that I have ever encountered. BC seems to be about pendulum politics - they go from one extreme to the next, never really figuring out that most people want governments to govern from the middle - on average Canadians are moderate kinds of people - but in BC they really do swing wildly from one side of the political spectrum to the other.

The sign for me about this craziness came early. I think it was '93 and we had that second national referendum. BC voted at the same level as Quebec to want to "leave" Canada!! Coming from Ontario, this came as a bit of a shock to me!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Here in BC, the ndp has taken a lot of measures that directly hurt me. They are coming down hard on businesses and landlords, because you know, they are all privileged and flush with cash, yadda yadda. Definitetely not hardworking young families that are sweating their bills, taking risks, not taking vacations, etc.


NDP Politicians perhaps because of their union roots, constantly use the words "working people" - don't we all work? Unless you are so wealthy you don't have to work, retired, or a student, you are working, and earning a living.

I must confess as a career salesperson and now self-employed and running my own business, I've often clashed with this union kind of attitude towards work - my whole life I've had to hustle HARD for every dollar, I've made. I get up every morning, and know that I, and I alone have to MAKE THINGS HAPPEN - if I don't, I don't get paid!

I do resent the fact that many NDP politicians as you have pointed out think the self-employed have it really good, that we are somehow swimming in cash! That's NOT the case. My wife, and I and our respective businesses, while we do OK, we would actually be making MORE money if we went back into the "regular" jobs, you know, like the "working people", that NDP politicians constantly refer to. But I really have no interest in going back to that.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I agree. My comments about Bob Rae being not so bad relate to him being in office at a time when he could not run much of a deficit spending program. My understanding is his finance minister went to New York was told they wouldn't lend him the money.


Doug has been WRONGLY (no surprises), using the Ontario NDP government of the early 1990's as an example. Doug has gone on and on about all the lost jobs during that time. That the government cut jobs and services. He even went so far in the last debate to say the NDP CAUSED the recession in the 1990's! (Good grief!).

It shows ounce again, Doug's ignorance true or willful, of actual events from that time and how things work. The NDP did not CAUSE the recession - It impacted all of the developed countries in the west. Private companies laid off many people, because that's what private companies do, when times are tough. It's what Doug would do at Deco Labels! The government had to let people go because, again times were tight/tough, and as someone else pointed out, credit, even for governments of the time was hard to get! This was also the first wave of manufacturing outsourcing to places like China - while the western economy was in recession, China's economy of the the time was booming. Many North American and European manufacturers were discovering for the first time that they could have their goods made in China for a fraction of the price of NA and European made goods!!

My Father was a senior offcial in the Ministry of Education working at Queens Park at the time. He tells me that, some of the best and brightest Education people he had ever worked with came in with the NDP Government in the 1990's, but because of the clamp-down on spending, and programs, they never got to implement many of the progressive programs they had in mind. He said it was kind of unfortunate. Then of course, a few years later The Mike Harris PC's came into power, and my Father said it was like they burnt the Education Ministry house to the ground! Large Ministries and programs like Education are like large ships, they take forever to turn around, and after all the Harris cuts, my Father said it probably took, 10 -15 years after Mike Harris to get the Education system back to where it was. That's why you see say, dips in standardized test scores, not in the years after they make the cuts, but 10 - 15 years down the road, often when another political party is in power, and/or the economic times are completely different.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I wouldn't say the BC liberals were too far right leaning. To be honest, I think, ideology wise, they were about as close to an ideal government as possible. Now, they ended up being horribly corrupt, as all governments become if left in power too long, but that's another story.

Our brand of left wing is REALLY left wing though. We don't really have a true conservative party or hard right group. It's greens and NDP out in La La Land, and the liberals at centre-right.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

I find it interesting that you want to demonise Mike Harris. Wouldn't you agree, despite what he did, that he was the reaction and not the cause?

Mike "slash and burn" was a horrible leader. Most people old enough would agree.

You've got learn how to use that google function to look things up.

I find it interesting that you want to demonise Mike Harris. Wouldn't you agree, despite what he did, that he was the reaction and not the cause?


Hard to say.

We would have a cross-town subway line in Toronto running along Eglinton now if not for Mike Harris.

The cuts he made to the education system, as I mentioned, negatively impacted a whole generation of kids, and you don't see that in real terms for 10 - 15 years down the road. The "corrections" for that only coming during the McGuinty/Wynne time period.

The almost forced amalgamation of the city of Toronto and the downloading of some key expenditures onto the new amalgamated city took years to sort out.

In The Ministry of Education where my father worked through the Bill Davis and Bob Rae years, mid level and senior people, where almost always former teachers ( as my Father was) - thus they had practical experience of being in the classroom and working with kids. Mike Harris ushered in the era, of appointing anyone to senior level positions in Ministries. They may have had the management "qualifications", but they had NO experience of work in that area. It was not their area of expertise. My Father, has said the Ministry of Education has really never been the same in Ontario!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

It's one thing to read about it, another to live it and have a decent pulse of the situation.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Just ask your parents. :-)

I'm old enough. My wife is old enough. My wife's family is old enough. We do not agree. If anything, we would have liked him to have gone a lot further.

Interesting experience of your father. My Mum is a teacher, my aunts are both teachers and my brother is a teacher, so I can sympathise to a certain extent. Plus, there is nothing worse than watching as mandarins with no practical experience assume senior positions through nepotism, something I am all too familiar with in the financial services industry! The flip side of course is that the public sector was, and has become again, horribly bloated, beholden to trade unions, and badly mismanaged. "Close enough for Government work" was the old saying and it rings true today. I think we can all agree that balance is the key, something I fear will not happen if the NDP gets a majority (or PC for that matter). I recall my wife's aunt being a long-term welfare recipient. Mike Harris cut it and she is grateful for him for doing so, saying that had he not done it she would have had no incentive to get off her ass and set up the successful business she has today. Of course I am sure there are stories to the contrary too.

I recall my wife's aunt being a long-term welfare recipient. Mike Harris cut it and she is grateful for him for doing so, saying that had he not done it she would have had no incentive to get off her ass and set up the successful business she has today. Of course I am sure there are stories to the contrary too.


I guess it depends on if you believe the stick or the carrot will be effective in helping people get ahead?

The motivation of REALLY having to do something to make a living worked for your wife's aunt, for many others, who perhaps lack her motivation drive and entrepreneurship, that strategy would be disastrous.

My brother has worked in HR for several well known mid sized retailers in Canada. He says it's remarkable that a majority of entry level workers, simply don't believe in the BIG-3 of Employment - Show Up, Show Up on Time, Be Enthusiastic. That's really all an Employer is asking that you do. No easy answers here.

I still think Doug Ford is being grossly misleading (lying?) with what he's talking about - even if you add up all what he's promised, and assuming he does find $6billion in "efficiencies", (which he absolutely will not find) it's still a worse fiscal position than the Liberals and the NDP - which is rich because it's Doug who's saying the two other parties are the ones spending ridiculous amounts of money!!

Don Drummond, former Chief Economist with TD Bank and who has done several studies on the economics and fiscal situation in Ontario says that all three parties - NDP, Liberals and PC are out-to-lunch economically and being fiscally reckless! But Doug will no doubt dismiss Drummond, as being one of those Toronto "elites" who has no idea what he's talking about!!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Ford is lying to the same extent as Crooked Kathleen and Comrade Horwarth. They are all as bad as one another on that front.

I entirely agree that all three parties are "out-to-lunch economically". However, I would not cite Don Drummond as the best source for this. First, he was never the CEO. He was the Chief Economist. Ed Clark was the CEO, and as evidenced by his advice on how the province should open up the alcohol industry, such executives almost always have an agenda of their own. Trust me on this. I have advised them.

And for the record it was not my aunt. It was my wife's aunt - a rather important distinction for my family.

My apologies for the errors. Corrections made. Thanks for pointing them out.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I don't normally follow Canadian politics but liked this:



Story here:
http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/superman-nemesis-general-zod-running-for-office-in-canada

Ford is lying to the same extent as Crooked Kathleen and Comrade Horwarth. They are all as bad as one another on that front.


FWIW - The Globe & Mail has called Doug Ford's "plan" for Ontario a "farce" - https://www.theglobeandmail.com/...tter_impression=true

They have pretty much trashed Ford from start-to-finish!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Not that I disagree with the spirit, but it's a rather cringeworthy article, and mainly because it shows David Walmsley's bias. I am assuming it was written by him. The author didn't have the courage to put his name on the article. Maybe it was due to the number of typographical errors! You've just got to love "editorials" during election campaigns, especially those that come out three days before voters go to the polls.

Tim Kiladze does a better job of things in my opinion, by attempting to compare the promises of Howarth and Ford: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/...arp-contrast-pricey/. However, even he still relies heavily on Don Drummond, taking his word for gospel.

Tim Kiladze does a better job of things in my opinion, by attempting to compare the promises of Howarth and Ford: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/...arp-contrast-pricey/. However, even he still relies heavily on Don Drummond, taking his word for gospel.


The BIG difference here is we KNOW that Horwath and the NDP are to the left, and it's in their DNA, that they feel, they need to spend more, fund more programs, AND are upfront about the fact that they will run a deficit and will be at least to start adding to the debt. We KNOW that - historally that's the way they operate, and it's all detailed in their platform.

With Doug Ford we have a guy who rants and raves about debts and deficits, who rambles on and on about "reckless spending", how the debt is killing us, . . but then when he actually talks about what he'll do with skant details - when you add up all Doug's spending promises and "platform", they are more than the NDP and the Liberals, and he still seems to think he can balance the budget, and do all of this by finding $6billion to $8billion in "efficiencies" (which is total BS!).

So neither option is a good one if you are anti-debt/deficit and fiscally conservative, but at least with Horwath and the NDP, it's all laid out there, there are no big surprises, but Doug's just spit-balling and making stuff up as he goes along like, "buck-a-beer" (Good grief)! It's insulting actually!

It's like buying a house, site unseen, that needs major renos, no blue-prints, no plans, with no inspection. Who would do that?

*Note the above is not a patent endorsement of the NDP, just stating facts!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

That's a good analogy. It's why a long time ago in this thread I suggested it would be unwise for Ford to make any promises until after he got his feet under the desk and saw the state of the finances. How can Ford or Horwarth be expected to come up with a detailed plan for renovation if they've never been allowed to inspect the house?

When the Labour Government in the UK was finally ousted in 2010 they left behind a note for the Treasury that stated "Dear Chief Secretary, I'm afraid there is no money. Warm regards - and good luck!" Unfortunately, Charles Sousa's most recent budget heads very much in the same direction, and I would fully expect whomever becomes Premier to break the promises they have made during the campaign as a consequence.

So it really comes down to who you trust the most. Ford is boorish and overbearing. His "platform" was rushed out the door due to pressure in the polls and does not add up. But, to use your parlance, fiscal conservatism is in his DNA. Moreover, I simply do not trust Horwath to do anything other than feather the nest of her union cronies, by hiking personal and corporate income taxes, and far higher than she is promising. Remember - back to work legislation is "very much against our values" and she's already had a $1.4 billion dollar rounding error!