You'll need the longer cage RD for the 32 tooth cassette.

I'll be running an SWorks Crux with i9's new i9.65 wheels. Tires, unsure, something tubeless in the 28 - 32 range. I'll make that decision as they reveal more of the course. Saying it's going to be more dirt that in previous years.

Taking the bike out of CX mode with a longer & lower cockpit, 50/34 chainrings. 11-32 cassette. Unsure if I'll run my powermeter.

I'm looking for a different top-tube bag. I have a Lezyne that I use on my mountain bike, but looking at it yesterday while riding, it's wider than my top-tube and not looking too sleek. Could of sworn that I bought a Specialized Remora at one point, but cannot find it.

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The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
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Cool, thanks Robert. I take it top tube is largely for solid nutrition? I was planning to go with three 20 oz bottles at the start (two in the frame, one in the back jersey pocket) of either custom mix of Carbo Pro or Maurten 320 (the latter of which I've been trying lately and like) and electrolytes to make sure I have 3+ hours of liquid fuel onboard from start but maybe that's overkill? Nutrition plan is not really developed at this point other than I have done a couple of 8-9 hr races the last two years so I know I can live off the land later in the ride if the aid stations are reasonably well stocked, but I like to have a good base of my own fuel for first 1/3 of the race.

Interesting about more dirt, may push me more toward 30-32 as well.

very few places you'd need a 32. but you'll need it on the last climb ;-(

if you're REALLY good, you can ride it on 28mm tires. if you're quite good, 32mm. if you're pretty good, 35mm. if you're very average (like me), 38mm tires.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thanks Dan - I had originally been leaning to 30 or 32s based on everything I've read but had a fellow rider say he thought 28s were sufficient, although he's a big gravel rider though (multiple time DK200 guy) and missed BWR last year after doing 2015-2016, so maybe his perspective is a bit skewed.

I ride a decent amount of cross/gravel but based on what I'm hearing, I make end up with something like the G One Speed 30s or Sector 32s - I am currently against going with a 35/38 since I don't want to lose too much time on the paved but I might be thinking about this wrong; ultimately tire choice could end up there if route seems heavy on the dirt.

I'd love for this quote to be true, but I am nowhere near the front and rode BWR in 2015 on tubeless 25s. Was the course easier then?

4.3 w/kg is pretty strong. Another thing to consider would be finding a 34 ring for your crank. You would have close to the same low gear as a 36/32, but you could keep the same chain, cassette and rear derailleur.

I’m wondering about that. My original thought of 28s came after talking to a 2015-16 finisher who thought 32s were overkill. But it seems like MM has been upping the dirt portion every year so maybe it’s morphing into a ride where the trade off pushes more toward fast rolling but wider tires? I will keep an eye on the course release and definitely give a RR afterward.

...and if you're smart, fast-rolling 42mm...no matter the skill level ;-)

(This is coming from someone who's done it on 25mm, 27mm, and 42mm -measured width- tires...oh, and that's the full course, not the Wafer, for each time :-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

The key statement above is "fast rolling but wider". You won't give up anything on the road to guys running "durable" 28s or narrower, but you'll REALLY notice it later in the dirt parts of the route, especially if they keep in the long wash-boarded dirt road sections out near Sutherland Dam/Julian (something the Wafer route riders didn't experience).

"Fast rolling", though...many wider tires aren't so fast...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Tom - Any advise on what fast rolling 42mm options we have?

i saw a lot of guys riding 25s right around me last year. and i'm pretty sure they wished they were on 35s. i didn't have any trouble keeping up with them on the road. i think they were fairly uncomfortable on the more difficult offroad.

i think tom has a pretty good perspective, having ridden it all the ways that he has.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Compass Snoqualmie Pass are 700x42, and can be run tubeless.

Another fast roller in that range is the Challenge Strada Bianca Pro 700x 36C, which will measure more like 38-40 on wider rims, but you'll need to run latex tubes in those since they aren't tubeless ready. No big deal though, I rode the Compass tires mentioned above with latex tubes last year with no issues..

I haven't rolled any 650b tires...yet...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Thanks...yeah, riding the 42s last year was a bit of an epiphany for me. Sure, BWR IS rideable on narrower stuff (in fact, that was part of BWRs original appeal, i.e. riding dirt on narrow tire road bikes), but it's SOO much more enjoyable on wide, fast tires. The fun factor in the dirt increases greatly, and the flotation in places like Sandy Bandy is awesome. You get way less beat up overall. I had my highest relative placing on the 42s by far, even despite my bonking before double-peak.

I don't think I'm doing it this again this year though...for multiple reasons...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'm guessing that I will probably stick with tubeless just to avoid pinch flats and because that's what I've been typically been running on my Aeolus TLR D3 discs. I don't think you have a spreadsheet for these types of tires like your road tires but maybe I missed it. Assuming I go up from the G One Speeds to something in the 35-36 range, what about something like a Compass Bon John 35 (guessing/piecing together based on your various insights elsewhere)? Thanks for your contributions.

I'll check out some of the pre-rides - right now I'm planning on my roadie ( Tarmac ) with Hutchenson Sector 28's. My backup plan would be to adapt my CX bike for more speed by swapping the crank & tires which would give me disc brakes and lots of tire options.

I've never done it - but guidance from local vets has been to optimize for the road sections. Being able to hold onto a fast paceline offers a lot of time!

Based on the comments here - I'm swaying back to the CX option.

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" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978

I did BWR in 2016 with great fitness from IMNZ. I did it on a road set up, 53/39, 11/32, with 25's (not tubeless an only flatted on the road). That was a really really hard day based on my bike setup choice.

I live about a mile from Questhaven and I ride the local road and dirt a lot. This weekend, I did the first recon ride on my Canyon Inflite. I'm running a 2x setup with 46/36 and an 11/30 cassette. I put on some WTB Exposure 30's tubless for the ride.

My thoughts for this race:

- I will be putting a larger cassette on to get a better range. Double Peak at mile 120+, assuming it's in the ride, will be tough without some easier gearing. Not to mention some of the steeper dirt sections
- The Inflite is absolutely the best choice for me. I did Rock Cobbler on the same bike with WTB Cross Boss 35's last weekend (2nd ride on the bike), and it was great
- The WTB Exposure tire in a 30 offers what I see as the perfect balance for road and dirt. Sure you can do it on 25's, 28's, or larger. But the 30 is great on and off the road from what I have seen
- Mountain Biking definitely helps stay off the brakes on the steep and rocky sections. Just let it rip
- I'm a big guy so nutrition will be very important. Eat lots and frequently
- I'll probably wear a 1.5 liter hydration pack, it really helps me stay up on hydration, and carry my flat kit, and makes my food easily accessible on the straps. (I ran this setup at Cape Epic last year and it was perfect, getting food poisoning otherwise was not)
- MTB shoes will be my choice. SWorks XC or Giro Empires. I feel confident I can ride almost the entire course, but at some point you will almost certainly happen upon a person or 10 that have backed up and require unclipping. I have destroyed a number of pairs of good SWorks road shoes in these types of events. MTB shoes will take the beating and keep on ticking.

I can't wait to see what MMX puts together this year. It should be shorter. Like 130 miles rather than 140+ of the past. Still a big day!

jake

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Get outside!

sscott43 wrote:

I'm guessing that I will probably stick with tubeless just to avoid pinch flats and because that's what I've been typically been running on my Aeolus TLR D3 discs. I don't think you have a spreadsheet for these types of tires like your road tires but maybe I missed it. Assuming I go up from the G One Speeds to something in the 35-36 range, what about something like a Compass Bon John 35 (guessing/piecing together based on your various insights elsewhere)? Thanks for your contributions.

I haven't done a blog post on some of the intial testing I've done...mostly because I'm still working out some of the "kinks" in testing of these kinds of tires...but, I DID share some of the preliminary testing here:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6471664#p6471664

Somewhat surprisingly, the Bon Jons didn't roll as well as touted, or expected. Not sure why that would be, but I've got to believe the numbers since the testing wasn't out of the ordinary. I've asked Jan Heine if there could be some batch-to-batch variation in perhaps sidewall rubber thickness, but he's apparently somewhat sensitive on the subject...even though he's admitted in the past to batch-to-batch changes in the bead structures...so, who knows? (Probably only someone at Panaracer ;-)

At the 35-36mm size, I'd roll the Challenge Strada Bianca Pro tires with latex tubes over the Bon Jons any day...there's a 10W on-road difference even at just 20kph.

BTW, in my opinion, if you're worrying about pinch-flats, then you can do better just using a larger tire to avoid that rather than saying "tubeless!". Sometimes finding a tubeless tire that "fits the bill" can be a bit daunting...unless you don't care if it's slow, that is ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I forgot to address this earlier...but the answer is: There was significantly more dirt, and more dirt later in the course in 2017, than any year before.

It sounds as if that trend is going to continue for 2018...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

The 23mm Pro One measures out between 26-27mm when mounted on the Aeolus TLRs with their wide internal width. I would think the 28mm Pro One would measure out at least 30mm. I would stick with that.

I would drop the little ring to a 34T and call it a day on drivetrain. Cheaper and simpler than changing cassette and possibly needing to change the RD.

Your currently contemplated setup is already near ideal IMHO.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
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What would be your opinion on those with latex tubes vs G One Speed 35 setup tubeless? I actually am a huge latex fan (have run latex on Challenge Almanzos on my commuter forever plus on my roadie typically with Corsa Speeds) but I feel like I "should" be running tubeless to take advantage of the TLR Aeolus.

Thanks, that's good to hear. I definitely am going to switch to 50/34 front rings for a host of reasons . The interesting thing about BWR is the polarization in opinion - there seem to be a number of folks who say 28/30 is sufficient, and then others (in this thread, with the obvious credibility/expertise of Dan and Tom A.) who gravitate to 35/38/42. It probably demonstrates how good all the tires are at all these ranges and we're probably all splitting hairs, but over 8 plus (or maybe 8 minus if all goes well) hours, those "marginal gains" can make a difference.

I have no idea...as I've seen so far, the only way to know is to test. For example, I had high hopes for some Vittoria models based on their construction, but they disappointed greatly...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

IMHO, a lot of those opinions are based on the assumption that larger tires are naturally slower on the paved road sections...which isn't necessarily the case, especially if you're drafting during those times ;-)

Being less than a year out from having fractured my pelvis, and having ridden the wide Snoqualmies a bunch on and off pavement, I decided to do the 2017 BWR with them. If anything, I did it just to improve "comfort". But, as I mentioned above, the experience was a bit of an epiphany as to their suitability for the ENTIRE course, and I finished with my highest placing (by far) in my 3 participations (2013, 2016, & 2017)...and I had even bonked so badly I almost pulled out at "The Oasis" stop. (BTW, the bonking was partly due to forgetting to eat enough because I was having so much fun bombing the later dirt sections)

Again, just my 2 centavos...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Thanks again, Tom, I most definitely appreciate your centavos. Not sure I can run 42s on the Boone so I might be stuck in the 30-36 range. Going to be an interesting choice no matter what (which is probably what MMX wants in designing this devilish event). If nothing else, the question of the best tire gives me something to geek out over for the next couple months. :)

I haven't had a chance to listen to this one just yet, but it looks like Brian's latest episode of the SoCal Cyclist podcast is all about BWR. Might be worth a listen.

Small Cycling World Alert: When I was on the podcast, Brian and I realized that I had raced with his brother at UCSC in the early 90's. The same time Damon was down the road at Kestrel giving me the inside scoop on the cool stuff they were working on at the time. It really is a small (cycling) world.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
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my experience and feedback...
2016: Specialized Secteur with 50/34 and 11-28 gearing and Specialized Turbo 28s. The gearing was fine, but yeah, Double Peak was still rough. These were just about the biggest tires my bike (brakes) would allow, and they were fine. No flats with butyl tubes.

2017: Same bike and gearing, but Spec Roubaix 25/28s tires, latex this time around. The latex and sealant saved me. I stopped for a snack break around mile 90 and noticed a construction sized stable in my front tire. The tire was still holding pressure, so I decided the leave the staple in place. I finished the last 50 miles or so with that staple still there. I've since removed it, and still use that same damn tube with sealant, although I only ride that bike maybe 3-4 times a month.

Anyway, last year, I made several mistakes with nutrition/hydration, and was pretty miserable the last 40 miles. In fact, I was cramping up anytime I'd put any power to the pedals, so I actually ended up having to walk up Double Peak (that sucked). I don't know if it was the weather, or the fact that the course was back-loaded with the tougher segments, but it had a considerable DNF rate if I recall.

Other bike setup notes: test your bottle cages. it's pretty comical how many ejected bottles you see along the first stretch of dirt. Also, both years, my handlebars slowly rotated forward from the pounding. The harsh ride can take a toll on your wrists too. Cushy tires, thick bar tape, padded gloves would all be helpful with that.

I may jump in and do the wafer this year. I'll be at a camp that ends Saturday night, so I won't have the energy for the full waffle experience after camp.

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TEAM F3 Undurance

I know Shimano says you do, but I've run a 32 tooth for some steep climbs without any problem. Ultegra 6800 setup, regular cage derailleur.

Alternately, you could run a 30t cassette (available in 8000, 9000 and 9100 groups) with a 34t chainring and avoid having to buy a new derailleur and longer chain.

Folks should chime in on tire pressure as well, along with true tire size and whether running tubes or not. I find a lot of people running "larger" tires for the first time tend to overinflate and not get all the benefits of the bigger tire, but I've never done BWR so I don't know what the limiters are for that particular course. I did the Rapha Gentleman's Race (now Prestige) in Boulder a few years ago on 27mm tires at 60/65psi, I was 78kg at the time. When I do mixed media rides on my Boone with 33mm Roubaix Pros or 35mm G-Ones I typically run 38/42psi.

Which latex tubes are you running? Vittoria and Michelin seem to max out at ~28. Are you simply using those in the bigger tires? Thx

These (and they work fine in tires slightly larger than the rated 38mm max): http://www.challengetech.it/...er-tube-046/80003/en

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I've got a DA 11-30 running with a SRAM etap derailleur..From what I've read the 11-32 won't work with the regular cage SRAM derailleurs. With the 30 T I was able to get the cage adjusted perfectly to spec and it shifts as beautifully as any electronic drivetrain.

I've set up my Hutchensen Sectors tubeless on my DT Swiss aluminum rims - they are 28mm rated, measured out to 31mm and seem to fit well. I'll need to take it on some dirt for a test - I'm a little concerned about clearance for pebbles that may get spin up in the bottom bracket area.

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" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978

Good podcast, I enjoyed the listen and have now added it to my subscription. Adam Mills from Source Endurance was definitely in the Tom A. camp of the bigger, the better for tire size. Also seemed to hint that this year might be dirt heavy.

Yeah, he definitely "sees the light"...and I certainly agree on his "28s are valid for about only 20 riders" comment :-)

I think I would beg to differ on his suggestion of needing some sort of "texture" on the wider tires though. It's not really needed for the dirt (just running the wider tires at low pressures is the biggest advantage), and any texture or tread beyond what's on the Compass tires is really just going to slow you down on the pavement. It's not so much the "weight", as he implies, but how well they roll...and excess "texture" or tread hurts that (along with excess "puncture belts" and stuff).

Also, they talked about clip-ons. I'm fairly certain those are specifically excluded from BWR. There's not many equipment rules, but I think that's one of them ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

No clip-on aerobars seems like a good rule. I know a lot of these made their way into DK200 last year but that strikes me as more of an endurance battle where it makes sense to have optionality. I'm hoping BWR doesn't follow suit.

FWIW, I am only doing the wafer but here is my setup. Santa Cruz Stigmata, compact 50x34 up front with a 34x11 DI2, in back running 35 mm Panaracer GravelKing SKs tubeless. I am fat so I need all the low gearing I can get. Trying to determine if it is worth it to swap the rear dear to an xt and get a larger cassette on the back for some of the climbs.

They have a series of Recon Rides setup that started last Saturday, the next being Sunday March 4 starting at Lost Abbey Brewery in SD. According to Michael Marxx (Spy and organizer) Saturdays ride was a majority of the first portion of the course, total mileage being around 74 miles 5,900 ft finishing with Double Peak. I cut it short due to time constraints, being dropped and making a few incorrect turns. I only saw 1 guy riding road tires (Michael) most everyone else was rolling gravelish tires it looked like. My setup worked great for me but did group up with 3 other guys and they were one skinnier gravel tires.

Hope this helps.

Regarding aero bars and the first Recon Ride (see previous post):
Aero bars would be pointless on first 70ish miles, first 6 miles ok then not again till miles 27 to maybe 31. The trails were open and I imagine they will be day of, lots of people out on double track and fire roads, lots people/cyclists/horse back/dog dodging.

If you are on Facebook, search the Road Bike Action Page or BWR page and they put up a short video of one section to give you an idea, what was posted was the less technical part of the ride.

Super helpful - I saw the Facebook route and the video of the rocky stretch. I'm going to keep an eye on future videos and reports. I assume if it stays dry the SK would be a good tire in 32 or 35 - do you find it fast rolling on the road? I'm all over the place on tire choice based on all this information, although I'm going to swap out my 46/36 for 50/34 so I have a little more range on both ends on the gear spectrum.

Considering there is very little penalty for the wider gear range, I think that's a great idea and what I'm doing as well.

Being in Colorado and having never ridden these roads or trails, it's been tough for me making tire choices as well.
Additionally, I do not have much experience with these types of types as the vast majority of Colorado "Gravel" is perfect for road tires (Brown roads). I ride latex tubed road at 25c. Tubeless and Tubular CX at 33c and Mountain bikes. I find the 33c cx tires to be very capable in gnarly conditions and am having a hard time wrapping my head around needing something larger. I won't know or trust it until I can test it. Unfortunately the founder of Compass is not someone who inspires me to ride his product.

My plan is this:
1. I made a choice (30c Schwalbe G-One Speeds). I chose these because I think a true 28c road-tire will be under-gunned and I'm extremely comfortable riding almost flat CX tires in terrible conditions. With the wheels these are being mounted on, I expect them to plump up to ~33c, the same as my CX tubulars

2. I'll mount them this weekend and ride them.Extensively. See what they're about.

3.I'll also keep an eye on the course reports, routes and videos.

4.If, in the next 7 weeks, I feel that I'm undergunned. I'll buy something else.
(At this point I'll probably have to make the decision between big and fast but tubed (Challenge Strada Bianca) or tubeless but maybe a bit "slower")

I realized I was stressing myself out over something that really isn't a big deal.
I'll ride, I'll have fun.

---

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This is good resource for people on tires and gear choices http://source-e.net/...-guide-neil-shirley/

Neil was the editor of RBA as well as pro on road and MTB. He won BWR twice and is an ambassador / survival camp ride leader.

Hopefully great minds think alike. I just bought the G-Ones yesterday. Going to mount them up, see how wide they measure, and plan to take them out on the gravel/dirt trail (unfortunately its crushed limestone we have here in the midwest so I'm in the same boat of not having identical conditions) assuming if ever gets dry enough and I'll see how they perform. I'll have something in 35 in reserve, but haven't figured out what that is either!

Let me preface, I am not out to win, just out for the experience and love dirt riding and this new gravel stuff. I am 6'3, 255 lbs and have decent handling skills (IMHO) in the dirt. The SKs are the only gravel tire I have ridden, I would imagine that 32's or smaller will roll better on asphalt but I am not comfortable with them based on what i saw. The first 1 mile of the dirt portion I saw 4 people that had flatted, not sure the tire size as they didn't need help but that just made me feel better about choosing a large tire. It might be overkill, but I want to play it as safe as possible. Would rather lose time then chance a flat on tubeless. The large tires will help you "float" over some of the more rocky sections on the course. I ran my pressure at a pretty high 53, and felt on the paved would have liked it higher. I didn't get any tire slippage in the dirt so going to try a higher pressure this weekend to see the diff.

Definitely a good resource. It would be interesting to ask him why he stopped at a width of 33mm in his recommendations though. It seems a bit arbitrary. I would be interested in hearing his thought process on that.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'd add that no one has been competitive (podium) on anything but a road bike and road tires. Are you racing or finishing? What's the goal?
I've used 27mm and 30mm tubulars for my previous BWR.

I'd recommend a 32t for sure. I've done it on 50/34t and 11-32t and 50/34T and 12-33t. This year I plan on using 46T and 10-44t and Schwalbe S-One (G-One Speed) 30c tubeless tires.

The course has added more and more dirt and technical sections but the front of the pack has always been populated with road bikes and raced like a road race. Attacks and surges and all of the tactics therein.

Good luck,
Dave

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Here you go:
“I guess saying "33 max" wouldn't be correct because there are people running bigger than that. I've never run a tire wider than 28c out there, and the men's event has never been won on anything wider than a 28c, but for those just trying to get through the day, a wider tire can help.”

Ok...cool. I guess it would be interesting if someday one of those "top 20 riders" that the Source Endurance guy mentioned actually tried the ride on some fast-rolling wider rubber. Since something like a 36c Challenge Strada Bianca rolls as fast on pavement as a Conti GP4K, I can't imagine they'd cause them to get dropped...but the bonuses in the dirt performance will be significant because of being able to run much lower pressures with less worry about flats (pinch or puncture).

In other words, saying "nobody has podiumed on anything wider than 28" might be succumbing to a bit of selection bias.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

This presumes that their speed on the dirt is slowed by the narrower tire.
This is much harder to measure than rolling resistance as it has more to do with the mental willingness to travel fast on sketchy surfaces with skinny tires.

In my experience (again, primarily in cyclocross), the fastest riders do not think like us "normal" folk.

ie. I ride faster on rough terrain with wider tires not because I have exceeded the limit of narrower tires but because I am more comfortable and allow myself more speed while truly fast riders do not have that mental hang-up.

---

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Well...it's a pretty good assumption that all other things being equal, wider tires run at lower pressures are faster off pavement. To use your CX example, why are CX tires wider than typical road tires?

Also, why is there a maximum width limit on tires in CX? If wider isn't faster for those conditions... ;-)

But, this is ignoring that even if there's no speed advantage off-pavement, as long as there's no dis-advantage either (on or off pavement), then being able to run lower pressures is going to be a benefit.

Think of it this way, even the fast guys are out on this course for >7 hours. Anything that can help to keep the rider "fresher" throughout (especially considering the amount of dirt that has been added in the last few years) is going to be an advantage.

I rode the 2nd year of BWR (2013) on an aluminum Soloist running 23c Conti GP4Ks (measured more like 25). That was fine for that course, and the Compass Snoqualmies I rode in last years' version would have been overkill. However, you couldn't pay me enough to ride the 2017 course on my 2013 setup though...the courses are that much different now. I could ride it...it just wouldn't be very fun, especially at the end of the day.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

part of that may be tradition.


I've not done any tunnel testing on this or even detailed field testing, but whenever I ride tires >=28c they are notably slower on timed sections of courses (roads) I ride routinely. Some of this could be due to higher Crr, I'll freely admit (although I have used tires with the same construction and tread in 23, 25 and 28c), but it seems to me there is a notable aerodynamic hit as well.

Tom, have you ever measured or modeled this?

I know it can vary based on the design of the rim. I have not seen a rim that has *less* drag with a 28c tire than it does with the same tire in 25c. At 32-33c (e.g., when I ride a CX tire on the road, even if it is a slick) it is easy to see the tire does not fit as well on the rim.

(I've used Zipp 303s for comparison purposes.)

I don't know the pavement/off-road component of the BWR, but provided there is quite a bit of time on pavement the aero hit could be meaningful--esp for a fast rider who attacks a group.

Curious for your thoughts.

I haven't measured or modeled the effects...but, I recall someone doing so...maybe Jack Mott has it archived on aeroweenie.com. I'll have to go take a look. My general recollection though is you don't really lose much with increasing tire width at low yaw angles.

I'd have to say though...more than tire width, I notice number and shape (round vs. bladed) of spokes in a wheel much more. Using the same tires, it's pretty surprising how much better a pair of 24 bladed spoke Zipp Course wheels go as compared to a nearly identical (rim width and height) set of American Classic 32 round spoke wheels I have.

...OK...found this old Zipp chart on aeroweenies. It only goes up to 25 (but it's a Conti GP4K, so it probably actually measured close to 27mm mounted), but it appears there's fairly small differences from 0-10deg of yaw angle.

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Perspective. I'll be out there on an 03 Fuji running 25's as that's the largest that fit.

You'll be fine.

Schwalbe G-One Speed 30c update.

Set-Up
Currently Mounted on i9 UL23CX which is a set of tubeless clinchers that I know well as CX training wheels.
Internal Width is 23mm. Pressure is currently about 60psi, i9 has recommended against going much higher. (I'm about 165 lbs at the moment)

Tubeless set-up was one of the easiest (of hundreds) that I've mounted. Went on by hand, pumped with floor pump and seated immediately. Currently Orange Seal inside.

Size:
~ 31mm which, in my opinion, is slightly undersized considering the internal width of the rim (23mm). This is slightly disappointing as I was hoping these would go to ~32mm on a 21mm rim.

Edit: After 1 week, they are now measuring at 32.5mm on the same rim @ 60psi

Grip:
Compound feels quite soft and grippy. Profile, even considering the width of the rim is fairly tall. I find both of these tend to give good cornering grip. Doubtful if the small "knobs" do anything for grip.

Rolling:
I rode these after having previously ridden 37c WTB Riddlers on a bike that had previously had 32c Clement Xplor USHs. It was surprising how much faster the g-one speeds were. Obviously more so than the Riddlers, but still much more so than the USH's. Although, a better competitor for this tire would be the Donnelly CDGs.

However, perhaps due to a bit lower than optimal (for rolling) pressure, they feel a bit "sluggish" compared to a nice clincher with latex tubes. I rode along in the group lunch-ride without a hitch.

UPDATE March 18, 2018


Wheels:
Currently mounted on Industry Nine 9.65 wheels, which are probably overkill for this event. However, at 200g lighter than 404's and 7mm deeper(65mm), I figured why not. I did PR a tough climb, so I do not think the additional 200g over the i9 ULCX training wheels will outweigh the aero benefits (Wheelset weight 1550g (advertised) for Tubeless, Centerlock Disc)

Mounting:
Just as easy as the other i9's. Floor pump, no tire levers

Size
32mm at 70psi on 21mm internal rims. Slightly smaller than the wider rim, but just what I expected.

Rolling
Any sense of sluggishness is gone at 70psi. However, they still absorb road imperfections like a good supple tire. Almost giving you that "I have a flat feeling" when you do not get jarred to the extent that you're expecting.

Off road
I've rallied these down some dirt descents, singletrack and rock strewn areas. I'm quite happy with how they're performed including getting a PR down a trail that I was previously fastest on my MTB and which elicited "That was rougher than I remember" comments from the group. Granted 70psi in these conditions is neither plush nor smooth, it is completely survivable and at times fun because of the extra driftyness. I do not believe this wheel or tire combination will be holding me back, however, my primary racing is cyclocross and I tend to be faster than my road-peers in these conditions.

All in all, I'm happy with the Schwalbe G-One Speeds (30c).

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Nutrition Question for the experienced among us.

In the past, have they handed full bottles as it seems some pictures suggest or do they have coolers to fill bottles from?

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Yes, bottles AND water to refill are readily available at the stops. They also usually have a wide selection of solid food as well...but, like me, it might not be completely to your liking. I was lamenting last year not bringing some of my own homemade ride food...especially later when I couldn't bear to eat any of the sweet stuff.

I would suggest starting with 2 small bottles and a good selection of solid food that you prefer on you and your bike. Use bottles that you don't mind ditching so that if you are presented the opportunity to grab one of the BWR branded Camelbak bottles, you don't feel bad about throwing away a good bottle ;-)

If you want a particular mix for your liquid, bring it along to add to the bottles when you refill with water. Most of the stops have the GQ6 powder available as well, but again, that may not be to your liking so best to plan ahead.

There's even Cokes available at most of the stops, if that seems like a good idea at the time...

I hope that helps.

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I’ve been riding the 30mm Speed as everyday road tire since last fall, which is what I’d go with for BWR.. Experience was similar though I’ve had a couple that were an absolute bear to get on and off (luckily the couple casing cuts sealed so I never had to change roadside). I’m ~155 and rode at 60/65. Really liked their ability to roll well enough to do a race ride yet tackle light mixed surface pretty well.

Grip was great on pavement but so-so on loose gravel. I used the 35mm at Gravel Mob last fall and that also rolls well but doesn’t have enough grip for fast, turny trail. For someone wanting extra volume it would probably be a decent BWR choice.

Last year they had water at all stops. Some had cokes, one ran out right after I got there.

I was fine refilling my bottles at the stops. I personally didnt lose any bottles, but there were lots of bottles ejected on the dirt sections. I did see some people rolling into aid stations with no bottles left. Luckily they had some extra bottles to give to those riders.

If you are picky about nutrition consider bringing some with you.

Tom-
Your information has been invaluable for those of us attempting this unique event with no knowledge of the area of past editions. I sincerely appreciate the knowledge you've shared with this (and many other!) topics.

Its good to know about GQ6. I had seen Clif as a sponsor, so I'll pick up some GQ6 as I've never used it. I'm a fairly heavy sweater (and thus drinker) and it may be hard to carry enough for an event this long

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I only did BWR once (2014) but it sounds like things haven't changed, in that if you don't need to stop, you don't have to, because the aid stations not only have water and other liquids, but you can get bottle hand-ups so you can abolutely ride (race) the entire course without needing to stop. My moving time that year was 7:47 and I only had two short stops - at my advanced age, two nature stops were required. With a superior bladder, it could have been one long, uninterrupted ride (race).

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You're more than welcome. I'm just glad if I can help.

You know, I just took a look at the website and the GQ6 is noticably absent on their sponsor logos...which is kind of odd to me if they're still a sponsor, especially considering how some of the BWR bottles I acquired have the GQ6 logo on them :-/

You might want to drop the organizers a line to see if it's still the GQ6, or if they've switched over to Clif products for that.

Like I said, as long as you have something you prefer to mix into the water on you...even Nuun tablets if you're just concerned about electrolytes...you should be fine.

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Does anyone have a new one of those 30mm G-One Speeds that could be loaned for a run on the rollers? :-)

It would be interesting to know what the true pavement Crr is on those...The only G-One I've tested so far is the 40mm "All Around" version, which was a bit underwhelming, to be honest.



Yeah...based on what I knew about the course, I kind of figured the Gravel Mob would be better (at least for me) on something with at least some small side knobs, rather than a smoother tire like I usually run (like the Compass tires at BWR). I'm glad I decided to run the 36c Challenge Gravel Grinder Pros on that...they worked great going up Sisar and along the Nordoff ridge, and especially down the single-track. They didn't seem to slow me down on the pavement either, since I suprisingly PR'd the 33 descent (which I've only ever done before on a pure road bike). Of course, it's hard to go fast on that descent anyway, since the prevailing winds are usually straight up the canyon...and strong.

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Tom, let me echo Robert's posts about your contributions! I just so happen to have two new G-One Speed 30s that I have not yet taken out of the box - if I could prevail on you to send it back after testing (since I probably will use them for a test ride on the course in the days prior to BWR once I make it to CA), I'd be happy to loan one to you. PM me and we can work on the details.

Thanks,
Sean

I could help with this as needed.

My prediction is worse than a ProOne @28c or traditional "fast" tires with latex tubes (Challenge Strada Bianca), but faster than similar items.

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Cool. I'll PM you my address. Will definitely send it back, but I may not be able to get to it before the weekend after next.

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What is the actual width of the G-One Speed 700x30mm?
Is it quite a bit bigger than a Pro One 700X28?

Not much wind to speak of on it this year. I had gearing all wrong for up and down, spun out on that descent and got caught by Rappstar, Neil and another buddy. And don’t really know how much a different tire would have mattered on single track part, it just sucked.

Tom

I’ve been running Hutchison Sector 32’s on the loose dirt out here in SD. I’ve wiped out a few times.

I love the way the tire rolls on pavement. It also handles large rocks and cobbles really well. I just find myself wishing there were larger knobs on the sidewalls.

I’m 175 and have been running 55 psi up front and 60 psi on the back.

Do you have any recommendations on other tires for BWR or should I look to drop pressure?

TIA

Yeah, along the Nordoff ridge it was nice, but I could tell that it was a headwind down the 33...as it always is ;-)

That's ironic you got caught because of being spun out...but I only say that because you probably would've all come together anyway at the single-lane construction closure near the bottom. I had a ~5 minute gap on the group I ended up finishing with...until I had to wait at that closure for workers to finally allow the downhill traffic to go through the single lane. Next thing you know, I'm in a group of ~10 as I sat there waiting :-/

I liked the single-track! Well, except for one spot where my front wheel went into a previously "gouged" shale washout in the trail (someone ahead of me had gone off-trail there and left a big "divot") and I shoulder-checked the rock exposure on my left...ouch. But, other than that, I was having a blast. I guess all of that '80s MTB experience was being dredged up :-) That's where I really appreciated the side knobs on the Gravel Grinder Pros.

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How large of a tire can you fit? The larger the better IMO for what you're describing. You can drop the pressures even more and gain some casing compliance which will not only help with control even with a tire without side knobs (surprising, I know...I didn't believe it until I experienced it), but it also helps a lot in the REALLY sandy sections (like "Sandy Bandy") because you get better flotation.

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I am planning on riding my Santa Cruz Stigmata, which I believe will run closer to 40.

If I was doing BWR this year (I'm "officially" not. I've signed up for the Nova Eroica in Paso Robles on the same day), I would most likely be riding on Challenge Strada Bianca Pro 36C w/latex tubes.

If the Stigmata can handle 40s, then those should fit. Even if you have ~21mm internal width rims, they shouldn't be over ~37-38mm wide. On-road, they're decently fast (within 2-3W for a pair to a 23C GP4KS w/latex), which is fairly impressive considering they boast a double-layer of their PPS puncture breaker). I'd run them at 40/45 psi F/R...maybe a few psi higher for you. If you're concerned about pinch flats or small punctures with the latex tubes, then put some Orange Seal in the tubes.

Oh...one word of advice on those tires. If you get them, mount them with butyl tubes first to let the casings stretch for a few days into a more rounded shape. Trying to stuff a latex tube into them when the are in their "straight out of the box" flat condition can be quite the exercise in futility...but no problem after a day or 2 of stretching.

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Awesome - thanks for the advice!

My testing experience with CX and road bike.

I live in South San diego county and mapped out a local loop I think is a decent testbed. It's a 45 mile loop with a 5 mile dirt stretch and a 1800 foot climb up Honey Springs (4K on the total ride) I rode it first week on my Tarmac with still only 25mm Specialized Turbo tires @ 85 psi and last week on my CX bike with 35mm Mud Wrangler tires at 60 PSI.

Road gearing is 52/36 -11/30 with Rim brakes and CX is 48/38 11/32 with Disc brakes

The net is, there was not much difference and I think the motor still has the most to do with it.

Key segments - Tarmac. CX
4 mile washboard dirt road. 24:49. 23:44
6.9 mile climb on road. 54:33. 57:57
2 Mile 700' road descent. 4:35. 3:54

Road sections were harder to compare because of traffic and lights, but not any glaring differences.

I expected a bigger difference on the dirt road and the interesting thing was the faster descent on the CX bike - but I have carbon clinchers on the roadie now and they don't inspire descending confidence like discs. There was a 3 minute advantage on the long climb with the Tarmac - but mood and motivation could have played a part, my HR was not very high on the slower climb

Total time on the loops were pretty close (didn't follow identical route over last 10 miles to get some more dirt) so if you don't have the perfect , latest gravel race bike - don't sweat it.

Since I've got most stuff in a drawer - I plan to put compact (50/34) rings on the CX rig and probably some faster tires ( not much mud here) - I think I can make it faster on the road and still keep the confidence on the dirt. I'll try the loop a few more times I hope and let y'all know how it's going

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" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978

Definitely find some faster tires for the CX (shouldn't be too hard...you're starting from a low bar ;-)

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Tom,

I am currently rolling a Panaracer Gravel King SK 35C, what is your thought on Maxxis Re-Fuse Tire in a 32c tubeless? I am running XTR wheels which are 21mm wide.

Also, just received an email regarding one of the segments, looks like the Lake Hodges parts are definitely part of the course. Rode this part on the first recon ride and it is pretty techincal with lots of large boulders and some 'hike-a-bike' sections.

Chris

I don't have any direct experience with the Re-Fuse, but a friend of mine likes them on his all-road rig...and rode those in BWR 2 years ago.

Yeah, I saw that email...that's the fun part (IMO) that was added last year that most likely contributed to my "bonk" (having too much fun to remember to eat...doh!). That was one of the section that made me very glad about my 44C width tire choice :-)

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To follow up on my own post.

I just mounted up a set of Schwable G-One speed tires. They really aren't any larger than the Schwable Pro One 700x28mm that I have been using.
They even fit in my road bike.
I will likely use them on my cross bike though, as my cross bike is more "disposable" than my disc road bike and also has more room to clear mud.

Apologies. I completely missed your question to me earlier.
FWIW, I do not have ProOne's to compare to. Interesting to hear they are similar.

Let me know what differences you perceive between them.

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Tom,

I agree that section made me glad i had my 35Cs but the rest of of the ride i wish i had 32s.

Chris

Does any one know a good picture or video of the Hodges section?

I've searched the internet, but frankly am not sure which of the videos and pictures are applicable.

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Aaah, but that's why knowing which of the larger tires don't slow you down on the pavement is important (I know some folks have snickered at me for roller testing "all-road" tires ;-)

It's also why I think going even LARGER (like the Compass 44s) can be a good call...the lower pressures combined with the flexible casings counteracts by a fair amount the lack of significant texture or knobs when on dirt, yet don't slow you down as much as knobby tires on pavement. And they're actually faster rolling than a LOT of the narrower smooth tires people ride, which tend to have stiffer casings because they're worried about pinch flats or bottoming due to the smaller tire volumes.

When a larger tire that performs much better on dirt than narrow tire options can ALSO roll basically like a 23c Conti GP4KS on the pavement, that's a pretty tough combination to beat.

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Here's a photo of some of the higher speed stuff you'll encounter.



-SD

I'm sure that'll be one of many times where I wished I knew where I was going.

Although, if I flat and I'm out of water, there will be a cornucopia of replacements...

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Going UP that on a skinny-tired road bike is REALLY fun...

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The slower you go the more reasonable it is to try to navigate on 25mm tires.
The course has become much more "mixed surface" vs. the road race with a little dirt as it was in '13, '14, '15 (even with the rain).

-SD

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Just Saw in an e-mail that the 2018 ride will have SIS Hydration and Clif Bars.

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To the OP-
Did you ever try the 32t cassette with the short cage r. der?

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At what tire width (if any) does an aero rim lose aero advantage over a shallow rim?

Is something like a 404 still more aero than a 202 when you put a 38mm or 43mm tire on it? I'm guessing that the leading edge probably isn't that aero since the big tire is punching such a big hole through the air, but maybe the trailing edge is?

Well...there still can be a "splitter" type effect on the leading edge for having a long feature behind the tire...


Plus, there'll be less rotational spoke drag, due to the spokes being shorter (and most likely bladed on the deep wheel)...

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Damn, I hate that this quote makes perfect sense!

Hello cholla and All,

Course description: https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/...n-the-dirty-details/



A picture is worth a thousand words .......

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

For what it's worth, my 2 cents...

I rode a big chunk of what the route has seen in the past. Including a lot of the dirt. All I can say is pray for rain in the early days of the week leading up to the event. Black Canyon was hard packed from the light traffic that goes through after the weekly rain we have been getting. Overall, the dirt was good, except for where folks had ridden horses before the trails dry through Lake Hodges.


I rode on 25's, 52x36, 11x30, on a Canyon Ultimate, and I bonked big time on the way back, but that was my fault for not loading up at a gas station in Ramona. The bike was perfect, but disc brakes are missing.

On the big day, I'll ride 30's or maybe 32's, tubeless, 46/36 and 11x32 (maybe bigger), on a Canyon Inflite.

Please don't under estimate the large amount of road miles that include some of the biggest climbs of the day. Eat, Eat, Eat, Drink, Drink, Drink! Seth nailed it in this blog post!


jake

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Get outside!

Except for this part:
"As a matter of accuracy, the wider the tire, the better for the dirt sections. You can go faster in the dirt with 32mm tires than with 28mm or 25mm, as the skinnier tires don’t float like the wider ones and tend to dig down into the dirt, especially on very loose sand. The problem is that when you get to the road on the wider tires, the rolling resistance becomes an issue… for nearly 100 miles."

Wider tires does not necessarily mean higher rolling resistance...in fact, I'd say that the wider you go, the faster the casing you can "get away with" since bottoming it is less likely (the majority of flats on BWR I would assume are from impacts, not punctures).

Personally, I think when people decide to go wider on the tires, they don't go wide enough...and so they're then stuck in the vicious cycle of riding a less than optimal width and pressure, and then trying to compensate by going overboard on casing "durability"...and then thinking that wider is going to make them slower on the road. It doesn't have to be so.

Also, IMO the heat of last year was unusual for BWR, and more about the 2017 event occurring ~1 month later than it traditionally had been held. This year it's back to the "normal" early-April date. In my experience, the typical weather-related thing you need to worry about is how cold the start is going to be, and then judging how much clothing you're going to wear since you'll be lugging it around all day once it warms up ;-)

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Additionally, I take this as an indication that many folks aren't choosing the correct tire width:

"Riders also need to be prepared for flats and be ready to fix them on their own despite the event having roving mechanics on the dirt sections and many on-course support vehicles. As many as half the riders will flat, and as many as half will be flummoxed by the physics of tire removal. Another half will not have enough tubes. The final 50% will run out of CO2 cartridges, and the last half will take this as an omen from Dog that they should sag their way back to the start/finish for fresh beer and treats."

In the 3 times I've ridden BWR, I've only had one flat, and that was a "latent" pinch flat on a 26C tire I was running at ~75psi in a latex tube...and I didn't know it had occurred until the rear tire went soft ~10 miles past the last dirt section I'd ridden through (one feature of latex tubes is that they are more immune to pinch flats than butyl, and when they do, they tend to lose air quite slowly). Last year, with the 44s (actually measured 42mm on my rims) ...also with latex, although I have those same tires setup tubeless now...I cruised through the course with nary a worry about pinch flatting, even though I was running 35/40psi F/R :-)

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Fair enough.

I did it in 2016 on 25's with standard tubes and only flatted on the road.

I rode a lot of the dirt and rocky sections this weekend on 25's with standard tubes at 110psi and didn't flat or worry about flatting.

In my view, I think that line choice has a lot to do with flats on the dirt sections. Choose the right line and you should be ok.

jake

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Get outside!

Woah....how much do you weigh??



Yup...line choice is very helpful in preserving tires.

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Around 190ish (I'm also tall, not that it helps). Running anything less than 100PSI and I flat almost every single ride on 25's.

jake

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Get outside!

That's a clue that you aren't running big enough tires :-)

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After seeing this, should I be re-thinking the majority of internet advice that says to use road shoes?

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Yup. Even in the less dirt-intensive events of 2013 and 2016 I threw Egg-beater pedals on my bike...there's always at least a couple of spots you're going to need to walk through, even if it's just a sand pit or to get around/over a gate.

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I could be mistaken, but I think that picture is Rock Cobbler not BWR.

But agree that MTB shoes may be a better choice. It is almost a certainty that you will have to get off your bike at some point, whether it is because you struggle in spots, or people in front of you struggle. I destroyed a set of road shoes pretty much last time I did this. I'll be using MTB shoes this year.

jake

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Get outside!

I think I've settled on my horse...

Fezzari CX bike with Schwalbe 35mm Allaround tires ( measure out to a bit over 36 on envy rims ), disc brakes and swapped crank for 50/34 with 11-32 cassette. I don't think I could go any bigger on the tire in this frame - but they have been running awesome over singletrack and dirt so I'm happy. I had to fiddle with the tires and rims to get them properly sealed - but I've got them now holding full pressure overnight. Maybe another wrap of tape on the bars?

Still thinking about water & nutrition... I've got some lightweight Camelbacks I use for MTB races that are attractive, or just hope my bottles stay put and trust in my pockets. Probably will stay with just bottles unless weather looks tricky and I want more gear options on the day.

How y'all doin?

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" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978

I think I'm pretty dialed.
Specialized Crux, Tubeless Schwalbe G-One Speeds @30c, 50/34 &11-32.
I've been pounding this set up for the last few weeks. From High speed dirt road descents, Moderate speed single-track, slow speed rocky single-track climbs. So far, so good.

Will double wrap drops because the Pro Vibe-Aero drop bars come to a wedge shape on the backside of the drops, which is uncomfortable during rough descending.

Nutrition / Hydration:
Calories (~400kcals / hour)
2 bottles with 5 servings of Infinit GO Far in each. (280 calories / serving (hour)). Hard to mix stronger than this.

• One filled with water on seat tube for the 1st half
• One powder only in jersey pocket (will stop to fill with water for second half).
• Additional electrolytes etc pre-added to bottles depending on conditions

Bento Box crammed with Honey Stinger Chews (~0.5 pack throughout an hour)

• I like these because I can quickly grab a few and pop them in my mouth regardless of the terrain

Hydration
1 Bottle on downtube

• Will start with regular strength Go Far, but switch to on-course hydration and exchange as needed.

Bottles in Specialized Rib Cage II (which I've never had an issue with, but might grip tape).
Initially I had a 3rd bottle mounted behind the saddle, but the extra weight was just too heavy. Harder to handle the bike in rough terrain and mentally it was a boat anchor while climbing.
Also had a Specialized XC Storage box mounted below a water bottle for spares, but will probably go back to traditional bag behind seat.

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Pro One, or G-One?

If G-One, I attempted to roller test one of those yesterday, but had to abort. I couldn't get the damned thing onto my Zipp Course 30 rim! I broke a plastic tire lever in the process and was worried about damaging the latex tube I was using. With the difficulty in getting the last section in place, I was also worried I'd have to cut the bead to remove it (I've had to do that before with a tire), and since the tire isn't mine, that wasn't an option.

So, no idea how well it rolls. That said, my initial "hand feel" impression was that the puncture belt under the tread seems a bit stiff...that usually doesn't bode well.

I would highly recommend carrying the GI tubeless plug kit if you're running that tire. I don't think I'd want to attempt to wrestle a tube into that tire in the field.

However, I was able to roller test a 30C Challenge Strada Bianca Pro...and, as expected, it wasn't quite as fast as the 36C version. Pretty much on par with the 36C Challenge Gravel Grinder Pros, or the 44C Compass Snoqualmie Pass regular casings.

Just thought I'd update on that front...

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Was that with the 30mm G-One? Because I had the same exact experience with 3 different tires and DID have to cut one and pry off with pliers. They roll great, but if you flat 'em on road, it's an Uber ride home.

Oddly, no such issue with the 35mm, which goes on & off relatively easily.

Yep...the 30C version.

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Tom,

Do you have the crr data on those gravel tires?

Thanks,
Gareth

See post #18 of this very same thread for the link...

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6567535#p6567535

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You seem to be a fan of Compass tires (general consensus seems to be positive on them). What are your thoughts of the 650b x 48c Switchback Hill?

Good Catch-

G-One Speed.

Your mounting experience is interesting; I got them on 2 different sets of i9 rims by hand without levers. Aired up with a floor pump.
But yes, I do have the GI kit in the bag.

Thanks for the input on predicted rolling. I'm still going to test 2 more tires in the next 2 weeks, but these are mounted for now.

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In the early days of 700c tubeless, a few manufacturers made their rime with a slightly larger circumference by design - in order to try to ensure a tight seal, which would make the tires easer to seat/inflate. Unfortunately, that made it really hard to initially mount tires on those rims. Stans and American Classic were two examples of these. I'm slightly surprised if Zipp went this route, assuming they did and that Tom didn't just get a "bad" tire, given how late they are to the 700c tubeless game.

And tire companies went small, which I think is the case here. I've mounted numerous other tires on this particular wheel with no issue.

It has the potential to be a good choice...but, based on my experience testing the Bon Jon Pass model, I can't really say how well it would roll without specifically testing it. I'd like to see how it compares to the WTB Horizon models...

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While I hardly ever post on these boards (not a triathlete), I figured I'd throw in a response on this one as I completed my first BWR last year (as well as attended the survival camp last January). This year's set-up will be a carbon copy of last year's...

Masi CXRc Comp (cross bike) with hydraulic disc brakes
Mercury M1 wheels set-up tubeless with Hutchinson Sector28 @~70psi
50/34 - 11/32

The 32 in back was a last minute addition (up from 28) and I used every bit of it on Double Peak. The overall set-up was just about perfect on the day and the only change I'm considering for this year is a small drop in tire pressure for some added traction on the dirt descents.

Something that I haven't seen brought up yet on this thread is bar tape. Tires and tire pressure are super important but one can't over look bar tape. This was my biggest take-away from the BWR Survival camp as I rode the camp on standard Fizik tape and my hands took a beating. By race day I had switched to ODI 3.5mm tape and this year am on Black Inc tape (every bit as cush as the ODI, if not more so). Besides the added cushioning, I found the fatter bar felt more secure in my hands and that was especially appreciated in all the technical dirt that, as someone has already pointed out, came after the 90mi mark last year.

I cannot wait to see what's in store for us this year!!

Compass Bon Jon Pass is now on BRR.

I tend to take the "reviews" with a few pinches of salt.
My hypothesis is that we cannot clearly extrapolate from testing with butyl tubes as more supple tires will experience an increasingly detrimental effect.
ie. we cannot just subtract out a static "Butyl effect" and have a like comparison.


LinkyLink

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Yeah...butyl tube is going to add ~2-4W vs. latex or tubeless according to his own testing (at ~60 psi). Not sure why he didn't test it tubeless?

Even then, that seems a bit slow (compared to some of the road tires on his list)....hmmm, perhaps a "confirmation" of my own BJP result? We both tested the standard casing of that model.

I do agree that the tires aren't exactly super puncture-proof...which makes running them tubeless w/sealant a better idea.

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BTW, if you look at the comments at the end of that BRR entry, there's a link to the Paceline forums that has a discussion of the results, including some commentary from Mr. Heine himself (where he demonstrates he still doesn't fully understand the utility of drum testing, nor what it actually represents...oh well):

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=220053

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Did you settle on G-Ones? I'm putting them on tomorrow (hopefully) for a test run in a local 100k mixed surface ride/race Saturday - otherwise, as planned, I will also be going 50/34 with 11/32 (I did go with the medium cage just to be safe). I have them stretching on Zipp 404s with tubes (was able to basically hand mount) so I'm hoping not to have the same issue when mounting on the Aeolus as Tom A. had with the one I sent him!

Your nutrition plan looks a lot like mine except I have a custom Infinit formula I like to use at regular strength, so I am planning to run three bottles (one in jersey pocket) despite slight weight penalty and potentially will either refill with powder or use on-course nutrtition (I'm undecided as of now). Weather looks pretty optimal, at least if the 10-day is accurate (and in any event will be a huge improvement compared to the 21 degree (Fahrenheit!) temps predicted at start for my Saturday race.)

Currently I have Pro-One 28c's mounted up for one last big training ride tomorrow. I'll make my final decision after that, but it'll be one of these two. I'll write up my thoughts on them tomorrow evening.

I switched only to try something different, not because of a known or perceived flaw in the G-one Speed. For me, confidence in tires is important as my riding fluctuates greatly with my mental status. They don't have to be better, I just need to believe that they are. Trying something else will confirm which ever choice I make.

On the road, it's a bit difficult to tell a difference between the two, especially because it's been very windy here recently.
On the dirt (singletrack), they're a bit less confidence inspiring than the G-one speed, but again because of wind I cannot quantify that.

Two side questions:
1. Can anyone explain the waves? When do we find out, which are the different waves, etc.
2. Is the full route ever released prior to the race to load onto a GPS? I'm sure I'll be desperate to know how much longer the climbs are going to last...

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I too am curious about the waves this year. But I haven't heard anything.

For the route, because they probably won't get full permitting until the very last minute, I'm betting the GPS files won't be available until the day before the ride at the earliest. But I could be wrong.

The longest climb is the Black Canyon climb (or so they say in the emails), I believe this hasn't been part of BWR before, but it comes after the sandy descent to the bottom of Black Canyon (this has not been sandy at all lately due to all the rain we have been getting). I'm not sure if the ride will go up to the dam this year, but I do know that it will go up the other way, which is longer climb up to Mesa Grande. That climb is just a steady and winding climb, not too steep, but it'll be the longestclimb of the day if I'm not mistaken.

jake

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Get outside!

Here's how they did the waves last year...I'd expect something similar. I seem to recall that the Women actually started in the first wave with us on race day.


The GPS route is typically released shortly before the ride. I uploaded it last year into my Garmin 500.

Black Canyon was in last year's route..and IMHO was one of the more enjoyable parts of the ride. It's a beautiful area... Here's my Strava recording from last year: https://www.strava.com/activities/999635869

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Looks like I'll probably be a 7:10 public start as I don't race on the road.
Thanks for the strava link

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If you do any CX or MTB racing, you should be able to ask to be in the first wave.

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Schwalbe Pro One 28c

Mounting:
Front mounted up with a floor pump without issue. Rear was a bit finicky. Had to take the valve core out, blast the tire with my compressor to get the bed onto the mounting shelf. Once everything seated, they held air without issue.

Size
30.7mm at 70psi on 21mm internal rims.

Pavement
These are very much a road tire and roll as a road tire should. I believe Tom A has likened them to a GP4000sII, although I think I've seen them listed as faster elsewhere. I was faster on downhill and flat road sections for similar HR and effort as compared to the G-One on Strava.

I had no issues with pavement grip. With the reduced volume they had less of the "floating above the pavement" feel of the G-Ones.

Dirt
Without question, they are less confidence inspiring than the 30C G-One speeds. If this is a concern, the G-One's are your huckleberry.

While the G-One speeds didn't have the grip of a knobby tire, they were fairly predictable in their drift.
The Pro-One's are a bit more On/ Off such that there isn't much "drift" and tend to move quickly to "slide". "Less forgiving" some may say.

I felt the difference on a high speed fire-road descent that has straight away speeds ~30mph into hard braking for switchback turns. On the ProOnes I felt I needed to slow more for the corners. On higher speed singletrack, crushed gravel bike path etc. I do not feel I lost any time as compared to the G-One speed. Certainly a bit less comfortable, but not slower.

The Balance:
This is what matters, in my opinion. In cyclocross I choose tires that are best for the majority of the course, unless the minority section is going to be the decisive point.

While I believe the G-Ones are more comfortable and confidence inspiring on the dirt section, I do not believe they are the tires I will run at BWR. For me, the road sections are going to be more important.

Personally, My skills on dirt are comparatively better than my ability to climb or motor along on the flats. I think I need to play to my weakness in a race that has 90+ miles of pavement with significant climbing.

I think that my last test-ride route was representative of what I expect from the BWR course. I also think that the Pro-ones were the best choice, for me. Ultimately we'll never know. We'll just get out there and have fun with what we have.

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Thanks Robert. I've been following your selections here with interest and I think you've helped cement my final decision for tires.

My big question mark now is gearing. I'm leaning towards 48-11/36. This would give me almost the same low-end as 39-30 and is still reasonably stout for fast descents and flats. The hard part is that some folks have indicated there are some potentially decisive moments early in the race where the pace is high where I may find myself running out gearing with 48x11.

I just don't know enough about the terrain down there, especially on dirt. The issue - I think - is that for me it's probably more about traction than it is about running out of gearing. I.e., I am a bit of a grinder, but that also means that you need to have enough rubber in the back to grip when you are applying high torque. So that's where I don't want too big a front ring.

I have 10-42 and 11-42 cassettes and could theoretically run these with a 50T or even 52T front ring. I don't mind the big jumps, though I don't know how shifting would be with 52-11/42 though; that could simply require more links in the chain than it actually has.

I'm thinking the 11-36, which I can use with a medium cage derailleur will be fine. The real question for me is 46-48-50T in the front. The more challenging parts of the course, especially near the end, have me thinking 48 or even 46. But I don't want to get spun out early if there are sections where I'll need to be able to keep up with guys who have a 53/11 in the front. I'm generally fine with my 50T keeping up with guys with a 53. But 48 - and especially 46 - might be pushing the envelope when the speed gets high.

I don't perceive any real limitations with running a 1X setup here. It's just that I don't know the area and, of course, they don't actually publicize the route until the last possible moment which makes it even harder...

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Did you see they shared the Strava route for the course?

I'd look at the steep sections, figure your speed based on watts/kg, then figure the cadence / gearing from that.

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Saw it after I posted. The issue that I see is that traction and ability to put down power if it's not a paved climb becomes an issue. Especially later in the ride.

I rode today on 48-11/36 on a route that I normally take my gravel bike on. It was "fine" but it was a 1hr loop. And I found myself repeatedly using the 48-36 on the dirt. I thought I might occasionally need it, but I ended up using it a lot. And I can imagine that after 100mi, it might be nice - especially if it's on dirt - to have a bit extra.

And I wouldn't say the grade was all that steep, it was just a mix of traction and wanting to be able to pick a line and all kinds of stuff that just aren't an issue on pavement.

I ended up swapping to 46-10/42. It's a bit of a big spread and the drag on the 10-tooth isn't great, but it gives me really good range. And on my pure gravel bike, I ride 44-11/42 and I find that is plenty on the road. Of course, that's pushing gravel tires and I'm also not worried about riding with guys who might have 53-11...

So right now it looks like:
Zipp 303 tubeless with Zipp RT28 tires (measure 29.5mm on the wheels at pressure)
46T front
10-42 in the back

That gives me pretty much the same range as 50/34-11/30, which seems to be a pretty reasonable set up for a ride like this...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Considering W/kg's, your "34-30" is probably more appropriate than my 34-32!

I've rarely have issues with rear traction while seated, just a needed weight shift if there's a bit of a slip. However, standing while using anything short of a CX tire on dirt is an exercise in futility. Despite liking to get into a good standing rhythm on the road, I have to ride too gingerly on the dirt / sand and, if anything, I feel like I use more energy trying to be careful.

Have fun out there.

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That was exactly my experience and what led me to shift gearing. On the road, I'd have been more than fine on the route I rode with 48-11/36. I ride stuff like that with my standard 50-11/32 all the time. But on dirt, it's a different story...

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Not to hijack this thread but do you have a few go to gravel rides in Boulder you can recommend? Thinking of heading up from Highlands Ranch this Sunday. Looking for a good 25-35 miler. Maybe a little climbing.

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Formerly DrD

You should have ridden Rapha's "A Day in Hell" with us yesterday... I had all the dirt/gravel I'll ever want.

https://www.strava.com/activities/1497901130

I can't say exactly what roads were gravel vs paved, but I just know by the end of the ride, I was very happy to be done.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

Ha, I need a nap just looking at that profile. Maybe 1/3 of that would be perfect!

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Formerly DrD

Replying in general to add to the discussion...

I am pretty sure I've landed on my setup for the wafer:

- Trek Crockett
- Hed Belgium wheels
- IRC Sand 32 tubeless (50 psi back, 45 front)
- 1x (44 front, 11-46 cassette)

Should be fun!

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/26901595

You can do loops of roughly miles 28 to 55; OR starting at mile 6 next to the reservoir up to Hygiene Road, take a right on Hygiene and then another right on 35, take it down to a right on Pike Road (mile 69ish of that route) and follow it through mile 72 to Niwot, but instead of taking a left, take a right to loop it.

FWIW, all the yellow on the Ridewithgps route is dirt.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

Looks like a good setup. Good luck!!

Thanks! If i get up there I'll check it out. Deciding on that or the Rampart Range.

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Formerly DrD

1. When you say "Gravel", do you intend to ride roads that could be driven by cars or are you OK riding off the beaten path for a few sections (but not mountain-bike trails)?
2. How much climbing around you looking for? More or less than 3,500 in a 35 mile ride?

It would just dictate routes that I'd recommend.

(The above Rapha ride hits some great dirt and paved roads, but it a bit more "roadie" inspired than I, personally, tend to ride).

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A mix of roads is fine but I'd prefer as few cars as possible. Light off-road is fine too.

Climbing wise I'd say under 3500 for 35 miles this time of the year.

Thanks and good luck at BWR. Sounds like fun.

Btw it's a little bit of a drive but some of the best off pavement gravel riding I've done is in the Black Hills of South Dakota.

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Formerly DrD

OK

I put together a ride that I would personally do. It incorporates a bit of everything (Dirt, paved, singletrack, Sunny, Shady, Rest Stop, Steep climb). The thing with Boulder is that there is so much to ride. I tried to pack as many of my favorite places into a 40 mile ride as I could, but unfortunately it leaves out a lot of great places. (Be happy I didn't make you climb over the washed out bridge...)

1. The main loop is 41 miles with 1,700 feet of climbing, starting and ending at Amante in North Boulder (Broadway and Yarmouth). Boulder CycleSport is next door if you need anything.

2. If you're feeling good, I tacked on a bit of a climb that starts a block from the coffee shop. This is optional. Wagon Wheel Gap / Bow Mountain is probably the best little sleeper climb in boulder. Its dirt ( and currently under reconstruction from the flood). Has a few steep pitches, but is very quiet. This adds ~7 miles and ~900ft of climbing

The route:
https://www.strava.com/routes/12658693


Miles and Description
0 to 1.5-: North out of Boulder on "36". There's a big shoulder, but it's a moderately traveled, fairly high speed limit road. Kinda hard to avoid, unfortunately

1.5 to 2.5: Dirt road to a trail head

2.5 to 5.5: Singletrack. Completely appropriate for road bikes. Fun, fairly high speed.

5.5 to 17- Dirt Road Goodness with brief pavement interludes

17 to 20 Pavement with good shoulders

~18.5 "Mary's Market" / now known as the purple door market? Great place to stop. It's at the only stop sign in Hygiene.

20 to 26. More pavement, but highly traveled by cyclists. Get your wavin' hand warmed up.

26 to 40- Dirt Roads and Crushed Cinder bike paths. Lots of shade. Interesting as compared to the many miles of straight dirt roads you were just on.

From there it's about 1.5 miles back into North Boulder.

If you're feeling good when rolling back on North Broadway in Boulder, Turn right at the light before the coffee shop to go up Lee Hill Road.
Prior to the Lee Hill climb, you'll turn left onto the dirt Wagon Wheel Gap. There's a bit of construction going on here.

You'll turn left onto the dirt Bow Mountain over a newly (nearly?) constructed bridge. No construction after this point. The Initial pitch is steep, but it flattens out. After the short downhill, it kicks steep again. There's a T at the end of that pitch. Go left for a shorter leg bustin' climb or right for a slightly longer and slightly less leg bustin'. This brings you to Linden, which is a fast, paved, tight descent. Fun, but stay in your limits. You can either ride that all the way down to Broadway and turn left to go back to Amante or cut through the neighborhood as I routed (hey, you said no cars...)

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Wow Robert, you went above and beyond! Thank you so much. Even if I can't make it up this weekend I'll be sure to bookmark this for the future.

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Formerly DrD

Tom

Big thank you! The Challenge Bianca Pro 36 with latex was a killer combination. I roller over everything without issue - a jagged rock even snapped underneath me without issue. On the downhills on pavement I coasted passed everyone in the paceline.

It is an amazing tire and a big reason why I survived the BWR.

Jonathan

My tire story was less happy - but still felt like it would have been a good choice. I mounted 35mm Schwalbe G-One Allaround tires about 4 weeks ago. My rear tire never seated /sealed completely, I would get soap bubbles around the rim and it wouldn't hold air overnight. I broke it down, cleaned and inspected the rim, ( ENVE) and remounted, same story. In hindsight, clearly a mistake - but liked the tires, they performed great on road and dirt so I squirted a double shot of sealant in, planed to top off with CO2 and pushed of with the 2nd wave at 7:35.

The first 115 miles were great - I was able to hold pacelines I deserved to be in , handled the dirt sections with no problems ( the first major section on Lemontwistenberg must have had 2 dozen people changing tires when I came through). I was able to top off the tires with Velofix support at mile 45 and 100 during rest station refuels and all was good. At mile 114, the rear tire blew with a nice gush of sealant onto my filthy bike. Velofix was again right on time and in less than 5 minutes we had the bike up on his stand, tried to reinflate and no joy. Pulled the tire off and found a failed bead with a tear, we decided to boot it, put a tube in a hope it worked for the final 20 miles. That then blew like a firecracker about 5 miles down the road. Paul from Velofix had looped back to keep an eye on me and found me wrestling with the 2nd flat. This time, we decided to change out the tire and replace the Schwalbe with an IRC, which mounted up and seated first try. Then THAT ONE started going soft on me, so I stopped a few times to air it up. I had left my CO2 dispenser somewhere along the way, so I had my micro-pump backup trying to inflate this... all told over a 1/2 dozen tire related stops and probably close to 2 hours of time lost.

Lesson learned - if you are not sure about your tires, you're probably right!

I'll be back next year with my setup fully dialed

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" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978

Sorry to hear. I was in that second wave too. Really a ton of flats on all sections dirt and pavement. You were not alone.

I started out training on Hutchison Sector 32’s, but they just didn’t handle well for me in the loose gravel. The Challenge Bianca Pro were the solution. The extra compliance from the 35 width allowed me to stay upright. And they roll faster than any of the tubeless options out there.

I was hesitant to run tubes, but I was sold on it after a handful of test rides where I purposely chose horrible lines and abused the tire.

I am still in a world of hurt today. I ran a marathon end of February and between recovery time and taper really only had four weeks to get ready. Out of the six weeks total between events I was in Europe for two of them. I suspect the day would have been rough regardless, but I was just not prepared for the pounding and endurance required.

I will be back but not next year. I need to recover and a bit of time to forget how awful I feel today.

Nice. Glad to hear that worked out for you. It's really interesting how so many folks don't understand that large tire volume and latex tubes go a LONG way towards heading off pinch flats. It's not just "I have to run tubeless to avoid pinch flats"...

Here's a taste of what I did this weekend instead of BWR (on 28C Turbo Cotton "Hell of the North" tires - no issues whatsoever)...313 miles over 3 days through inland Central California, with the last day being the Nova Eroica event in Paso Robles.



https://www.facebook.com/...e=1&l=73027d15a5

https://www.facebook.com/...e=1&l=451d850153

https://www.facebook.com/...e=1&l=6ff0089413

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Wow TDD- Sorry to hear that story.

I rode about as well as I could have hoped and exceeded my expectations (which were a bit low, not knowing what I was getting into). Finished ~ 8:25.

Tires- 28c Schwalbe Pro One's were great. With all the pavement miles, I'm glad I went with them over the G-One speeds. I was able to put time into people on the road and gravel descents, but they were on the edge on the gravel for sure. I ran 75/80 psi with Orange Seal.

Wheels- Industry Nine i9.65 The deep rims what I had were welcomed for saving energy on the flats. The front being 65mm deep was probably overkill, but I'm super impressed with how they held up through training and the race. They were bashed through rocks, through water, had rocks kicked up at them and they're well super solid.

Gearing: 50/34 and 11/32. Wouldn't do it any different.

Aero / Rolling resistance- I paid attention here. I had a kit made in our prototype area that was nice and tight. I also wore a Giro Vanquish (sans shield) and the deep i9's. That, plus cleaning and replacing bearing lube with a light oil and I effortlessly drifted away from my groups on paved descents. Without pedaling, I would look back and a gap of 50m would have opened. I think this saved me a lot of effort in the long run as I'm not a natural climber and I was able to regulate my efforts better.

Shoes: I ran road shoes, but switched from Speedplay to Shimano. I believe this year was a bit less sandy that others, but I only had to get off my bike a couple times. Once in the first singletrack when someone spun out in front of me, once to clamber over some rocks and once to go under a gate (if I remember correctly).

Nutrition: I went with a 3 bottle system. Bottle 1: 4 hours (8 scoops) of Inifinit GO Far for 1st half nutrition. Ditched when Finished. Bottle two was 4 hours of GO FAR on my back (dry, added water when needed after Bottle 1 was finished) Bottle 3 was water that I exchanged at every aid station for hydration. Nutrition worked out well. Bottle hand-ups at aid stations were clutch. I've never tasted water so good! I also munched on some honey stinger chews I had brought and pounded a couple of cokes. The one low point was that I was having "micro-cramps" in my right calf for ~20 miles, when I decided to take a "Hot Shot" about mile 115. That was a bad idea. It instantly destroyed my stomach. After a 4 minute stint in the "penalty box" I finally got everything back together after Questhaven dirt and prior to Doublepeak.

Edit to Add Clothing:
PI sunsleeves (one white, one black, didn't notice a difference) that I stripped off when it got very hot. Helped protect my pale skin.
Full Finger PI Aero gloves. Also stripped toward the end when I was getting hot.
Prototype PI Jersey and Bibshorts (Look for them in Spring 20!)
Oakley Jawbreakers with Prizm Road lenses.
No Baselayer.


The event was awesome. It was a whirlwind trip, but I'm very happy to have done it. Thanks to everyone for all the information shared.

Also, Congrats to Jordan who looks like he had a strong ride

---

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com

I should have listened to Tom A, Slowman and probably gone, at a minimum, with larger tires and maybe latex (or at least not the G Ones!). I may do a more detailed race report later but long story short, I decided to run the G One Speed 30s tubeless. On Saturday I did a warm up ride with our group, ran over some brown glass coming back up out of Del Dios and blew a sidewall - it wouldn't seal for shit and I had to throw in a tube after booting. Tire was trashed so I picked up a Donnelly CDG 30 for the rear at the Expo and had the Velofix guys mount tubeless (thanks guys!). Seemed like a good tire and I thought had good traction for Sunday's ride on the rear wheel.

Sunday was tough as expected, like most I probably went out a bit too hard with the Wave 1 "neutral start" but settled in by the Black Canyon climb and felt relatively decent coming back down out of Mesa Grande all the way through Sandy Bandy and the exist of Mule Trail. I made it through the 101 mile rest stop a little more than 6 hours into the day feeling pretty good and had visions of 8:20 or 8:30 or so running through my head, which I thought would be pretty respectable on my early season Midwest fitness (i.e., longest ride in 2018 was a little over 3 hours). As I headed back into the Lake Hodges/Del Dios sections I got into a good rhythm again, feeling like I had stayed up on nutrition and then at mile 108 (2.5 miles from end of last real nasty dirt of day) I punctured the G One Speed front on one of the last steep rocky uphills - didn't think I picked a bad line, just shit happens. F**k me. I looked at my sidewall, the hole was not too big, I spun the tire few times, prayed for the sealant to do its job, gave it a little time and put a little Co2 in - try to ride and it starts leaking again. Double f**k me. Get out the GI plugger repair kit, the plugs are a sticky mess, can't into the hole to seal. Triple f**k me. Decide to put in a tube, have to deal with the sealant messiness (you know the drill) and surprise, surprise, tire is a bitch to get off and back on. All told a 25 minute misadventure. A little later I have a issue with my rear rotor making horrific sounds and slowing me down majorly, turns out I must have left my seat bag open and an inner tube had fallen out and wrapped around the rotor (!!!)- this takes another several minutes to fix - what a disaster. It has now taken me 43 minutes to cover approximately 3 miles.

Fortunately one of my teammates had passed me towards the end of this comedy of errors, and as I'm getting toward the end of Lemonshittensberg or whatever this fourth circle of hell is called, I see him heading back up Del Dios Hwy on the road section, so I blaze through the aid station at 111 and bridge up to him on the long climb, and we ultimately head in together. All told, the last 25 miles took me over 2 hours and 30 minutes to complete (with the mechanical time largely self-induced and probably aggravated by the fact that my brain was fried by this point, as evidenced by the rear rotor incident). Total sh*tshow. Ultimateyly I rolled in 9:15 gun time and drink lots of beer, eat waffles with ice cream and maple syrup, watch the awards and get truly humbled by the fact that the podium crew rode the course in 6:35-ish - absolutely unbelievable. Fun race, but not sure it's very doable (well) for those of us confined largely to basement trainer rides from November to March (at least that's what I'm going to tell myself), and if so, better make good choices on gear and have some good luck.

you and jordan both did great.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Tom,

That looks nice. I think you and Dan were right on tires, even though most people I saw were on 28s. If I had more time before Sunday I would have liked to test a few different tires, but I now agree with you that for most, wider would be better (and really good sidewall protection is key). Obviously it's only an N=1 review, but the G Ones did not acquit themselves well in my view. (See my other post above for more detail.) I'd say there's always next year but I'm not sure I'll be back - it's a great event but tough for me to be fit enough to ride well this early in the season as long as I remain in the Windy City.

Great learning experience and a lot of fun for me. (Fingers crossed on the KOM jersey - I'm the "provisional" winner as of now.)

Stuff I got right:
- Gearing: 46x10/42 was perfect. This was the one thing that I really nailed. I never wanted more gearing than I had and I used the full range with ease.

- Nutrition/hydration. I ate and drank a lot. And early. And I rode strong through the end. That SiS stuff on course was really nice too. Much better than at some races. I certainly prefer First Endurance, but I thought the SiS stuff was first rate. No complaints about on course support by any means.

- Clothing. Arm warmers and vest to start, but dressed for heat under that. LG summer/climbers jersey (it's basically mesh) and a super light sleeveless base layer. When it got hot in the backside, I was fine. Long finger gloves were fine the whole day. But maybe would have done fine and been a bit happier with roadie gloves.

- Glasses. I used Oakley EVZero with Prizm Trail lenses. These are really bright and not the best choice for road riding, but they made up for it in the patchy light on the trails.

- Saddle. I used my gravel/MTB saddle of choice rather than my road saddle of choice, and for sure that helped with steering and bike control.

Stuff I didn't get right:
- Tires. I rode the Zipp RT28 on Zipp 303 tubeless. The tires were great from a durability standpoint. They measure at 29.5mm on the rim, and I ran them at 65psi. They were great for climbing and on the flats, but for me - not being a great dirt bike handler - these were really not ideal on the technical descents. I got totally annihilated on that, and some of that was obviously a lack of experience, but I also think that I could have benefitted with wider tires and/or something with more tread on the side to grip in the corners. I just needed more grip. Especially since I give up a bunch in terms of experience/skill on that stuff but make a lot of it up on the road side, I think something with side knobs and/or more volume would have been - for me - a better choice. The RT28 were amazingly durable and grippy when going up - I only had to get off my bike once, in the rock garden near the end that basically everyone got off for. But they drifted too much for me in the corners at higher speed.

- Navigation. I downloaded the GPX file and set it up as a course and then forgot to load it at race start. Had two minor - and likely inconsequential - navigation errors when I was stuck in no man's land between groups, and I this was just because I forgot to actually load the map. Details matter...

Stuff that I'm undecided on or that was a wash:
- MTB shoes. I basically never needed my MTB shoes and probably would have been happier in my road shoes with speedplays. But this was not really here nor there.

- Position. I rode my road position, which is a bit lower in the front and a bit steeper (though still very slack) as compared with what I ride on my gravel bike. I think a bit more upright position and a bit slacker is better off road (less weight on the front wheel), though I'm still refining this idea in my mind. I ride a fairly "aggressive" road position, and I think this isn't "ideal" for off road, but I doubt it mattered too much.

TL;DR - gearing was good. tires were not ideal. overall, I need to be better at riding on dirt.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Sorry to hear about the trouble.

My race was going great, then started to derail when I again experienced the sensation of my stomach not wanting to accept any nutrition around mile 65. After seeing everything I had eaten on the day around mile 93, I felt better and tried to eat a lot at the 95 mile aid station. About 10 miles later I pulled the plug as I could see the signs of the distress my body was screaming at me.

Bummed. I ride these roads and trails all the time with no issues. I have some thingsto figure out. It seems that my body will work and work and work, but for some reason I have a problem continuing fueling in races. I've tried a lot of solutions and it all works in training, but can't seem to make it work on race day.

In any case, my setup was perfect and I would run it again, with possibly lighter wheels. I had zero flats and the gearing was just what I needed. With the WTB's I can really let it rip on the dirt/ rocky descents, have excellent traction in the dirt/ gravel/ sand, and they still roll really well on the road.

- Canyon Inflite SLX 9.0 disc size XL
- 46/36
- 11x32 cassette
- WTB Exposure 30's tubeless at 65 PSI

I'll be riding the route again in a week or so. Looking forward to possibly throwing some bigger tires on and racing the RPI stage race in August/ September.

Congrats to everyone that finished this year!

Jake

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Get outside!

Thanks for reply and sorry to hear about your trouble. Talking about ‘eating a lot’ late in the race sounds like a likely issue.

For me, if my stomach turns I stay with water for a while and it will usually stabilize. I didn’t like the SIS drink they were serving ( to be fair I think it was hastily mixed and proportions were off) I quit drinking it after the mid-point and stayed with known nutrition.

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" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978

I've been down this road before a few times, and I stuck with water and a some pretzyls, bananas and coke to keep me going from way out of Black Canyon on. Otherwise water was what I could take. I drank enough, no cramping and my legs were fine, but I'm a bigger guy (6'3 and about 195ish). I need to eat a lot to keep the motor running.

After not having a lot for about 40 miles I was running on empty and just getting from aid station to aid station. I threw up at mile 90 something, which I felt much better after. I was just in a shortage of calories to burn. I ate at the next aid station and felt ok. But I know when my body is saying to stop and I had pushed way past that hoping I would come around to being good again.

It was really hard to drop that far in to the race, but I know what was left and ride that several times a week. It was no slouch of a final 25-30 miles. It was the right call.

Back to the drawing board. I didn't drink the SIS stuff. I tried a cup of it early on and it was no good.

jake

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Get outside!

have you ever tried a sodium load? Meaning a pre-load in advance of the race.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I have not, but something I am looking in to.

I tried the Skratch Hyper Hydration before IMNZ and that didn't work too well, but I think that had something to do with drinking it too close tot he start of the swim and possibly drinking a good bit of water on the swim.

Salt is for sure something that I think I need to address.

jake

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Get outside!

It did seem super-concentrated from a sweetness/flavor profile (at least compared to my Infinit custom mix), so I wonder about the osmolality and carb heaviness. Anecdotally, I think the worst I felt all day stomach-wise was around mile 95, which was right after I had taken down two of the BWR hand-up bottles of SIS in fairly short order. I definitely tried to alternate between plain water and SIS from that point on, and toward the end I was taking in water bottles only, as I could tell I had stayed on top of my nutrition/sodium and really was just trying to hydrate.

Great work out there, Jordan, very impressive ride. I would wear road shoes next time - other than to get over / under gates, the only two times I clipped out were at the water crossing on the way out (which was a mistake, and on the way back I just rolled through) and on the rocky uphill near Lake Hodges on the way back in. Overall I would have been more comfortable in my road shoes.

Tires were a total mistake for me, but one of my own making.

As for saddle, I used my Sworks Romin Road saddle, which fits me like a glove and I have never had any issue, even on 300k rides. But it was a big mistake for BWR - no cushioning and with all the rockiness, chatter, etc., my sit bones (or more accurately, the skin above my sit bones) took a beating. Should have rode my cross saddle or something with a little more cushion.

Definitely a wild experience, one I won’t soon forget.

My butt was completely comfortable. Not sure if it was the Specialized Power Elaston that I had on or if it would have been fine anyway.

FWIW, for un-smooth surfaces, a bit lower cadence tends to help float your bottom over the saddle

---

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com

Lower pressures/wider tires will help with the saddle comfort as well ;-)

BTW, the saddle I use on my Fuji "all-road" rig happens to be an Fizik Arionne Tri...which I only used because it was a "take off" from my NP2 purchase a few years ago. However, it turns out that the additional padding, especially on the nose, makes it quite a good "gravel" saddle (at least for me).

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Lol, don’t rub it in on the tire choice - I already admitted my mistake! I rode a healthy part of the day with a guy on 650/47s and he was comfy.

The Arionne Tri is actually a fairly popular saddle for gravel it seems. Matt Lieto also uses that as his saddle of choice. I've been using the HC170, but I'm thinking of switching the SHC170 - which was my tri-saddle for many years - as my gravel saddle for some extra padding.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Hi Tom,

I'm trying to mount these tires on my rims now and they are a m*therf&cking SOB to put on. The tire tread rolls out so flat that it's almost impossible to get the other bead in. I need a beer.

Yeah, the first time on can be hard. I've settled on a technique that works pretty well, and usually doesn't require levers:
1. Find a stool to sit on - seems to go easier with the wheel in your lap. Open beer and take a sip.

2. Put the first bead on. The tire will be laying flat around the rim and you'll think "no effin' way am I getting a tube in there. Take a deep breath, and another drink of beer. Make sure the bead is in the center channel of the rim.

3. Grab the tube and insert the valve in its hole. Now, go around the entire rim and "tuck" the tube in between the rim and the tire as much as you can. It's ok if you see a part of the tube, but try to get as much in there as possible. Doing this first, instead of tucking it in as you put in the 2nd bead (what I normally do with a vulcanized tire) seems to work much better

4. Now, starting opposite the valve hole, grab the tire from the outside of the rim and "fold" it Around the tube so you can now insert the other bead into the rim. Keep doing this in both directions from that starting point and then towards the valve.

5. As you get near the valve with inserting the second bead, double-check that both beads are still in the center channel. This creates the most room for this final bit of bead. Using mostly you palms, carefully "knead" that last remaining bit of bead onto the rim by basically "rolling" it up over the rim edge. Try to avoid using levers...it may take a bit of "kneading", but it's well worth it to avoid puncturing the tube with a lever. If you have a bead jack tool, that works well for this too. Once it's on, push the valve into the tire a bit to make sure it's not trapped under the beads. Take a well-deserved drink of beer.

6. Now, go around the tire on both sides and push the bead back to make sure no part of the tube is trapped under the bead. If there is, "flick" the tire a few times to try to get it up into the tire. Sometimes adding a small bit of air helps. Be patient with this...it's worth it to avoid an exploding tube. Take another drink of beer.

7. Pump the tire up. If it's a tubeless-ready rim, you may have to inflate to a relatively high pressure to get the beads to seat fully.

8. Sit back and finish beer :-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Ok that was brilliant advice. Thanks very much.

Step 1 and 8 are great. As are the others. And with all these virtuoso skills you couldn't get the Schwalbe S-One 30 on? Don't worry, after my BWR experience I've sworn those off forever. The Donnelly CDG 30s on the other hand....?

Anecdote: I'm in a tubeless experimentation phase right now. Just mounted up an S-works Tubeless 28mm on to a Belgium+ rim. Got the tire on with just a touch more effort than a normal clincher. Had the tire mounted and seated within two minutes. Measured width inflated is 31mm. I also have a Specialized Roubaix 30/32 that I'm trying to mount to a Belgium+ rim. I could barely get the first bead on and the 2nd bead looks impossible to mount. I suspect a lot of this comes down to variations in the bsd from rim to rim, tire to tire. Millimeters seem to really matter to tubeless tires.

My hope is that Mavic's Road UST standard catches on... so long as someone makes tires to the dimensional spec without the butyl liner.

That's the difference between tubeless-ready beads and regular beads...plus, it not being my tire ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

In my experience, the first bead always goes on better if:
1. First place the rim inside the tire so that each tire bead is outside it's respective rim-flange.
2. Pull bead from outside of rim-flange onto rim with the inner surface of the tire dragging over the flange.
I'll refer to this as Left (Bead) over Left (Rim) and Right over Right

This is different from home many people mount tires in that they just start putting the tire on such that the "left" tire bead is pull over the Right rim flange and then the right tire bead is pulled over the right rim flange.

Additionally, when mounting tubeless tires the "twist" method is where it's at.

1. Mount first bead as I suggest (left over left, right over right)
2. Follow Tom's advice above.

3. When you get to that point where the bead does not want to go over the rim flange try this (ie: never use a tire lever again):
a. Kneel or Squat
b. Hold wheel vertically in front of you, such that it is perpendicular with the unmounted bead at the top of the wheel and facing away from you (cannot see the bead)
c. Place your right hand near the right edge of the unmounted bead
d. As your grasp the tire/rim combination, place the "callouses of your palm" just underneath the unmounted bead. The natural fold in your palm will act like a hook.
e. While gripping the tire and rim tightly, rotate your hand (like a motorcycle throttle) such that you are twisting the bead up and over the rim flange
f. Move hand and repeat until bead fully on.

*can be done with tubed tires, just be carefully to not damage the tube

---

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com

That's about what I do to get tight tires on. I've mounted dozens and dozens of tires at this point. In the case of the Specialized Roubaix tubeless I literally can't even get the first bead on.