Can't wait for the start of the season!

The full start-list is interesting, the Brits are certainly out in force for this race! I'm anticipating a clean-sweep of both podiums : )

But seriously, it's good to see Vicky Holland and Non Stanford back in action after non-existent 2017 seasons; hopefully they can help break up the Duffy-domination in the women's races and it'll be great to see how Sophie Coldwell does this year.

I'm expecting the likes of Jacob Birtwhistle and Kristian Blummenfelt to really be challenging for some wins this year too.

Very interesting to see Alistair on the list too. Has he said he'll race multiple distances this year?

It was discussed/speculated a bit in the Dubai 70.3 thread.

In short, yeah it looks as though he'll be mixing it up with the Commonwealth Games, some ITU WTS races (notably ITU Leeds) and the 70.3 Triple Crown.

The question is whether he goes long this year or not... I'm guessing not.

The men's race is absolutely loaded. Everybody bar Gomez basically...is Javier finished with the ITU circuit then?

Didn't he win a few weeks ago at 70.3 or is that now considered "short"

I'd consider it middle-distance ; )

is Mola in?

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

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Mola is on the start list.

Isn't Gomez doing Challenge Wanaka this weekend, guessing it's only the 70.3 but might not fancy all the airmiles before the WTS.

Quality field though, probably all looking for a break from the current miserable winter we are having

Jeff

Yes should be a more competitive women's field, anyone know how much Spirig plans on racing?

I expect Blummenfelt and Birtwhistle to crash the Gomez/Brownlee/Mola/Murray podium party we've seen for years.

Triathlon is the only sport I know of where a 4 hr race, or 5-8 hr for AGers, is considered "middle distance". I mean, in both swimming and track, "middle distance" means 2-4 min events like the 800 and 1500 m in track and the 200 and 400 m in swimming. Triathlon has such strange categorizations since similarly a "sprint" race takes about an hour for fast guys and up to 2-2.5 for AGers. A "real sprint tri" would be a 50 m swim, 800 m bike, and 200 m run. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Tri is weird Eric for sure.

Sprint race should be 50m swim, 250m bike and 100m run, no transitions lol.

I like the way you think, Blue, a swim-heavy tri where the swim is circa equal in time to the bike, and the swim is twice as long as the run. Awesome!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I found myself working out how to do the transitions... barefoot with rubber platform pedals.

I’m sure someone on here would be fretting about nutrition and hydration... ;)

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Developing aero, fit and other fun stuff at Red is Faster

I agree that Blu will likely have a great year, however I wouldn't discount the Brownlees, especially Alistair. I believe he will take this early season to see if he can still be competitive in ITU and in that case he will be more likely to go for Tokyo, so looking for him to go balls out in Abu Dhabi
Sorry if this is offensive to those without balls

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

I think not having Alli and Gomez in the front pack coming out the swim will massively effect Jonny's game. Murray and Blum are monster bikers to have in that chase pack.

If Ali decides to race more ITU its more than likely going to be a Brownlee 1,2.

Don't forget about Kanute. He will be hammering with the Brownlee's too.

That's right, NO distance is short enough to do w/o nutrition and hydration. (pink) :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Would be a pretty spectacular event :)
Olympics has track and field decathlon, why not a sprint tri :)

What's the bike course like at Abu Dhabi?

Last year it was flat with a lot of twisty turns.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Suitable for a Brownlee break?

They tend to be better off with some elevation changes to split things up... It is a race car track, which can be tricky to assess gaps on (having raced many bike races and draft legal races on tracks before) which sometimes plays in favor of a break. But if I recall, the real factor racing in that part of the world is wind... if you get a fairly still conditions, there is very little probability of anything staying away, you get crosswinds, all bets are off...

IIRC last year Gomez and Bishop made their move on the bike leg and it stuck, but yeah, not exactly a "technical" course so wouldn't be surprised to see a peloton coming into T2.

Murray is not a monster biker, but I keep seeing on Slowtwitch claims to the contrary. Can you name 3 races where he's demonstrated that? He a pretty decent biker sure, certainly above average, but he's definitely not a 'monster biker'.

Murray rides like Schoeman but with a bigger engine... and can get away with it, because he's in the pack, not the break... Mola is very much the same way, rarely are they the aggressors chasing back on.... The women's races have more monster bikers in the chase pack working hard to bridge (the Jo Browns, Jodie Stimpsons, Nicola Spirigs..), than the men do. The men's races come back together, because the pack tends to swell to the point, where there's just too much power to hold off most of the time.

the women don't have any monster bikers other than duffy. gentile can bridge up and so can spirig but she races so infrequently.

Last season, not so much, because Jodie Stimpson was out most of the season... Gentle is not a monster biker to bridge, she needs help to do so, but can run back massive amounts of time, so she only needs to be within 2min or so off the bike for a shot at the podium. Last year, without a Stimpson/vickie holland type to help out, the best they were doing was damage control with 2-3people doing most of the work to keep the gap to 2min, rather than 10....

No one can bridge to Duffy, she’s a beast. I think if Gentle could swim front pack she could probably stay with Duffy, but zero chance of bridging 2min.

As for Murray, he wasn’t a bike beast over the 70.3 distance, he got smoked.

Spirig is every bit as good a biker as Duffy.

um, no. she gave up 2:17 on the bike to duffy in rotterdam and duffy did a lot more work than she (i get it that spirig had a kid in the spring)

https://wts.triathlon.org/...nal_rotterdam/309472

they had basically the same split in rio:

https://wts.triathlon.org/...olympic_games/305291

when she was on the top of her game (i'd say 2012-15), she always was one of the best bikers but she didn't bike off the front and drop the rest of the field like duffy can and often does now. duffy is in a class of her own right now.

Ever heard of the Spirig train? Very famous among ITU women :-)

Nicola (and Daniela when she still raced ITU) were by far the best bike riders in women's ITU. Bike monsters yes!!! The only reason Spirig never biked off the front (or at least not often) is because she's not as strong a swimmer as Duffy is. Duffy is awesome, that we can agree on.

Spirig was no where near fit last year, Spirig was the only one forcing the pace in Rio on the bike trying to break, Duffy was struggling to keep up like the rest from what I remember.

If Spirig was as good a swimmer as Duffy and starting as many races, Spirig would probably have two ITU world.titles to go with her Oly gold.

If she's fit next year and competes I don't think Duffy has the same year as she did last year especialy with Holand, Stanford and Stimpson back.

now you are talking nonsense. do spirig didn't bike off the front of races to get a minute lead going into t2 because she had to spend the first 10k of the bike playing catch-up and then forgot she could drop the rest of the field during the rest of the bike? that's a good one. there were plenty of races over the past 2 years where duffy didn't come out of the water in the lead, biked up to the front of the race and then just biked through everyone until she was in the lead that continued to grow. when was spirig doing that on a routine basis?

don't get me wrong, spirig is a great biker, but she's not as strong of a biker as duffy, who probably is the best itu biker ever. she has the record for the largest win ever (larger than any of gwen's) and it was done on the bike!

He is often leading the pack he's in in attempts to bridge gaps. And quite often it works.

I'd 2nd the fact that Murray is a beast on the bike both technically and power wise. He drives the chase pack in most races, especially if he's had an okay swim. London 2012, WTS Yokohama 2014, Chicago 2015.

To see what he would be like in a lead pack, watch Superleague Jersey again.

I don't think Samorin was a true reflection of his abilities on a bike. I also think he's more suited to shorter distance stuff as his training is much more low volume high intensity (under 25 hours p/w).

With regards to Mola, he has tried to drive every chase pack he was part of in 2017. This almost always led to a sub par run, as unfortuntely he is just too light (62kg). The absolute power just isn't there. Even the Brownlees have a good 6-7kg on him. WTS Kitzbuehel 2013 was a 'fairer' race for him with that climb where he showed that in terms of w/kg he's a match for anyone bar AB.

Yeah people forget how well mola did on the kitzbuhl bike when it was all uphill

The top three monster bikers in ITU (over ITU distances) that I've seen have been Alistair Brownlee, Phil Graves and Tom Davison. Murray is someone I would put close to Gomez as a cyclist, but still a bit behind. And only on flat courses. Jonathan Brownlee is slightly ahead of Gomez but significantly behind his brother. Then again, is Alistair so much better than the others, or is he just more willing to attack? His 70.3 career suggests actually, yes he is, but his willingness to attack (unlike almost anyone else in the sport) sets him apart irrespective of the power he sustains.

Can you give me a race when a fit Spirig and a fit Duffy have came out of the swim simmilar times down when Duffy has biked through everyone and Spirig has not?

What happened to Duffy's superior bike in Rio when Spirig was looking for someone to break with?

Could you list some of the times Murray has pulled the second pack up to a working Brownlee group in the ITU?

Straight of the bat, your first example is wrong. Murray entered T2 in London 2012 close to 2 minutes down of the Brownlee group. He didn't even make up any time on the bike - he lost time in fact!

Who other than Blummenfelt is a better biker in the chase pack than Murray?

When I described Murray as a monster biker I think he is compared to the rest of the ITU field, obviously not Brownlee standard but certainly with in the Top 5.

All this who's a better biker than who is prety hard to prove draft legal racing.

I just think it's a bit of a myth to believe Murray pulls the 2nd group up to the 1st with anything close to something remotely resembling regularity (an idea which is often trotted out on here). Sure it's happened a few times but analysis of the data and his results proves otherwise.

I actually forensically broke it down a while back but the search function on here is so terrible that I can't find the post.

Fair enough he was in the 3rd group out of T1 not the 2nd. The other two are valid.

It is interesting though that he has not done it in the last few years. I think that's testemant to how hard the Brownlee driven lead pack has been going since 2014ish. I'd say the most recent Brownlee wins have been essentially sewn up on the bike. There havent been as many Brownlee wins from T2 as there used to be.

AB is even more of a beast on the bike than he was back in 2012ish. I think a lot of that is down to the extra bike work they've been doing through all the recent injuries.

No kidding! ;) My highlight is still having seen a bike rigged for a spring in the AG-ranks. Regular 20km flat bike. Person in question had 7 or 8 - i kid you not - gels taped to his stem. And 2 full water bottles of course. No pink! :)

Yeah I agree with that. I think knowing they could remove from Mola and Murray from contention in the Olympics also played a significant part in it.

I noticed it at Glasgow 2014 when they'd been outrun a few times leading up to it. Since then they've pretty much made sure Mola or Murray are nowhere to be seen going into T2.

I'd love to know what kinda numbers they're hitting on the bike, particularly AB. He has been training with power recently so would be fascinating to know.

Tokyo will be interesting because I just feel they may pick a course that might not suit a break. I just have a feeling it'll be a runners race.

I don't think 2014 was different to any previous year. Thinking of Alistair's races since Beijing 2008, I'm hard pressed to think of more than about five where he either didn't engineer a successful bike breakaway (sometimes breaking away from a breakaway) or at least led an unsuccessful one for several laps. From 36 races that I remember starting in 2009, AB entered T2 at part of some sort of successful breakaway on 25 occasions, i.e 70% of times. I don't think Murray or Mola have yet to even breakaway from the 2nd back, let alone get into a breakaway themselves...

7 or 8 gels for a sprint, Holy Sh*t Batman!!! I don't take in any calories unless i'm riding 50 miles or more, and even at 50 it would just be defizzed Coke or Mtn Dew. I'm a big defizzed soda drinker, more bang for the buck calorie-wise than Gatorade, Powerade, etc.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I think though that as time has passed the successful break % has went up if you break it down year by year. I could be wrong but it seems that every race that AB races nowadays the break is successful. Yokohama & London 2014 are the last races I can think of where ABs break was not successful (yes I know he hasn't been as active of late). And in those races he was off the podium - although he was coming back from injury so wasn't in peak run shape at that stage of the season.

No but that's simply because there is no race other than Rio that had a fit Spirig and a fit Duffy racing against each other. We have years of Spirig never racing off the front of the race and an entire season (last year) where Duffy did it so frequently it was a story when she DIDN'T ride off the front of the race.

What makes you think Spirig was looking for someone to break with? I was there and Spirig looked more like someone who had no idea what she was doing by repeatedly surging on the flats, where she had no chance of gapping the field and of course never did, and then sitting in on each climb and descent of the hill. Please show me where in the race Spirig indicated that she was looking for help to make a break. Compare that to what the Bs did -- executing an all-out redline at the start of the bike that actually did gap the field, which the field never recovered from.

Duffy is a front pack swimmer, Spirig is always playing catch up on the bike with a weak swim.

Spirig unfortunately doesnt race that often, Duffy wasn't at her peak when Spirig was racing regularly the race we have to go off is Rio as a fair comparison. A race were Spirig was forcing the pace on the bike and from memory it was Gwen who covered most of Spirig breaks.

Yeah i guess it depends on who you’re comparing too. Monster bikers i was thinking more Sanders, Wurf, Kienle and Brownlee.

Brownlees skipping Abu Dhabi it seems to head to Australia in order to prep from the Commonwealth games.

Yeah, I saw JB mention that he was off to Oz on Twitter so I guess they're out, if they were ever legitimately in? It's a bit disappointing to see the WTS take a back seat amongst the top-athletes yet again...

Just looked it up and the Commonwealth Games are 5th April for the Elite Men's and Women's races and 7th April for the Mixed Team Relay and Para-Athletes, so I guess it would be right in the middle of their build-up for it.

JB is still on the numbered start list, Ali is off. With the new withdrawal rules, this withdrawal is now classed as a late withdrawal and can cause a penalty to the countries number of starters at the next WTS. GB won't be able to continue this game this season as they will quickly use their "free passes" effecting their other athletes.
As far as the other top athletes they are all in. Ali and Gomez are the only ones out. this field is massive in talent.

Was really looking forward to seeing Ali back racing in ITU, shame.

I believe Ali has entered Maloolaba, another sprint distance race that would be preparation for the Commonwealth Games.

Given that both of them gave interviews, saying they were looking forward to racing in Abu Dhabi, I presume Alistair must have picked up an injury of some sort. I don't know the ins and outs of the new late withdrawal rules, but presumably an authentic injury is judged differently to someone just not wanting to turn up.

https://twitter.com/AliBrownleetri/status/968436297852444672

Quote:

@AliBrownleetri

I have decided not to race in @WTSAbuDhabi this week. Pulled my calf a bit and there’s no chance of me not putting everything into a race and doing further damage.

Perhaps his propensity of running up on his toes bit Alistair in his calf?

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Predictions anyone???

Men
1) Sanders (obviously)
2) Mola
3) Murray

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Women
1) Cook
2) Holland
3) Gentle

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

Men:

1) Blummenfelt
2) Johnny Brownlee
3) Mario Mola

x-factor: Murray, depends on what happens on the bike (whether he is contact starting the run)...

Women:

1) Duffy
2) Zaferes
3) Gentle

x-factor: Stanford

Defo Sanders in first.....

1.Sanders 2.Brownlee 3.Murrey 4.Mola 5.Blum Women.... 1.Holland 2.Duffy 3.Learmouth

Men:

1. Lionel Sanders
2. Lionel Sanders
3 .Lionel Sanders

Women:

1. Lionel Sanders
2. Lionel Sanders
3 .Lionel Sanders

Right! No way Duffy could hold his wheel :)

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

Pfft, Sanders would drop out on the first lap of the bike because of all of the drafting... There's no 20m draft zone in WTS... And Duffy could totally hold his wheel on a course as technical as the F1 circuit...

Learmonth, Duffy, Zaferes, Coldwell, Routier and Cook hammer the swim and gap the field. Cook and Routier are quickly dropped on the bike. Duffy, Learmonth and Zaferes come into T2 together. Coldwell drops off the run pace at 2k while Flora and Katie duke it out for the next 3 k. for an epic finish.

On the men's side, JB, Richard Varga, Vincent Luis,Heni Schoeman, Kanute and a couple others hammer the swim attempting to get a gap but are reeled in by the field. It comes down to a running race between JB, Mario, Luis, and Murray with the ones in best early season form making the podium.

YMMV,

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

why was the trifecta dropped this year?

No Blu?

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

Ooops.....brain fart;( Yes Blu storms through for a solid podium spot.

hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

What this will boil down to really, who's fitness levels are better early doors of the season. I know all my predictions have either raced or looked like they've not had the winter off via socail media.

Either way Sanders dominates whatever shape he decides to show up in...

Yeah I wasn’t in love with the way they scored the trifecta but it was a fun distraction. It made me feel cool, like those kids who predict the classics races over on that other thread. 😎

Agree, Blu is in great shape so recon he will have a good chance. I think he will have a great year so this may be the start of it. To me it is between Jonny and Blu, and if Jonny is fit I think he will win, but after a shaky season I'm not sure.
Jonny must be going after the title this year, no?

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

You know the road is slick when Jonny Brownlee goes down when leading the bike.

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Strong riding from Henri 'Lionel Sanders' Schoeman here

and after a very strong swim as well. Mario certainly had a solid ride catching up 30 seconds to the Brownlee group on such a technical course.

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Brownlee had a terrible bike by his absurdly high standards, probably the worst I can recall, definitely didn't add any charge to the group. Will be interesting to see what he says - perhaps he backed off fearing another crash which could rule him out of the Commonwealths.

Looks like this season could be quite competitive with around 7 guys all in with a shout.

Yeh the Commonwealth's are gonna be very interesting. If AB is fit and starts then he'll be a game changer. But I'm not convinced with Johnny at the moment so you could have a situation where only one or no Brownlees make the podium. Still there's 6 weeks to go.

I'd bet that Alistair will look at these results and massively back himself. He'll think "okay, nail the swim and that's goodbye to Birtwhistle and Murray" and there is absolutely no way he's not going to back himself in a running race with Schoeman.

From a British perspective hopefully he can get in 6 weeks of decent training, judging from Dubai 70.3 he only needs to add some top end running speed.

It looked and sounded like Henri or his coaches made excellent tire tread and pressure choices for the race as he seemed to be cornering more confidently than so many others. What ever the case he certainly executed an excellent race.

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

I think it depends on the extent of the injury. In the past we've seen ABs injuries linger to the point of enforced rest. Hopefully he has a better feel for when to nip things in the bud and has the time to do so.

AB's run in Dubai was okay but 71 equivalent on a pancake flat course is solid but not amazing in an ITU context. I don't think he was pushing it though.

That being said I totally agree there was nothing exceptional on display today, other than Schoeman's bike handling. Gomez might even be having 2nd thoughts.

It appears that Flora went down on the fast off camber down hill turn where so many other guys and gals went down before and now Joanna Brown down in the same corner:(

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

The ITU have completely f*cked up here.

And about 10 others now, going into the last lap of the bike... this race has become a bit of a farce.

Having said that, anyone from this front group could win it now, I reckon Learmonth is the strongest runner left.

Only because they pander to their favourites who in interviews always say want harder, more technical bike courses. Well this time it came back to bite two of the most vocal in the arse.
In making courses more and more technical just promotes crashes and sometimes season ending injuries, these athletes are actually humans not video game characters.

ST - Where a 71 min 70.3 run is “okay”.

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

The course isn't inherently dangerous... The races were fine there last year. The issue, with any race car track event (Having done a number of bike races, and a number of draft legal multisport races on race car tracks) is light rain and it's effect on the residual motor oil... If it's going to rain, you want it to dump, that way it washes away all of the residual motor oil. When it's light rain, it just pulls it to the surface, making it super slick. With just a bit of moisture on the surface, it was pretty suboptimal. That being said, the right choices in terms of tires and pressures, can mitigate those risks, but a lot of people gambled wrong... In the women's race, the course was drying up, but it was still slick, and I am not sure everyone banked on that...

I'm surprised that Flora was one of the ones who went down, because she usually excels in technical courses and suboptimal conditions, and usually nails the tire/pressure game... I can only suspect that it's partially due to sponsor changes, and only having a couple of months with the new equipment, and not being completely comfortable with things yet... The corner where a lot of the carnage happened you were moving from relatively light to relatively dark, descending under that overpass, which can be challenging...

It's typically the LOC proposing the course, not the ITU (the ITU does have to approve it though), so I'm not sure some of the accusations here are fair. But for sure when they moved from the old course to the race track last year, the aim was for more of a spectacle from the event. In terms of the comment about technical courses encouraging crashes, I disagree mostly. Technical courses tend to be safer than less technical ones in a draft legal context, but they string out the field, and prevent the pack from bunching up (which are prime pile-up conditions). You will see crashes on those courses, when riders try to ride above their actual skill level (ride a course feature faster or more aggressively, than their handling skills can support).

The commentators actually said the course was made more technical than last year, adding in some extra tight corners.
The number of DNF was bad enough last year when it was dry, was a huge number. Ppl still over estimate their own abilities and crash on dry technical courses. More corners =more crashes, strong capable riders often get slowed or tangled in the mayhem.

Your point may well apply more generally (although I'd argue only really amongst the AG-ranks, seeing as crashes in WTS races are relatively rare), however in this particular race all of the crashes bar the JB one were happening on the same corner as the athletes descended down into the underpass and straight into a tight left-hander.

This part of the course was exactly the same as last year and it was clearly an issue with the track surface; the added technical sections were the coned-off turnarounds further around the lap.

Also your points about the strong capable riders getting slowed or tangled in the mayhem seems completely irrelevant seeing as Duffy and JB both crashed when they were at the front on their own...

Well it doesn't compare with a sub 30 or low 14 over the ITU distances. And like I said he was probably comfortable.

Comparing the run splits of the ITU guys to typical 70.3 run splits is silly. The ITU guys are on another level.

Starting to see all the road rash pics now on social media post race... Duffy and Richard Murray didn't look too bad, Katie Z and Jo Brown got some gnarly road rash (can't imagine armpit road rash...). At least from what we're seeing so far, the injuries are mainly of the cosmetic variety, and not the broken bone variety (although there was a pic from Non Stanford of an ambulance, heading for x-rays to check out her wrist...)... That may be the one silver lining to a slick oily course, tires slide, but so do bodies, so while you'll get some epic road rash, you're less likely to stick and break something...

Just seen the result, has Schoeman been issued a new TUE?

he sure looked good didn't he?

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Contrast that with the official TriathlonLIVE Twitter feed that doesn't make a single mention of the conditions in their mid-race-live-tweeting, nor reference 90% of the people that crashed nor the fact that they all crashed at the same point on the course like Wacky Races...

It looks like Katie Zafares had a pretty nasty fall and is in the hospital being treated for a concussion per her Twitter. Tommy even mentioned short-term memory loss in his recent post. Hoping she's alright and will be released soon.

---

The Gram: @agyenis
My latest story on Swimswam: More than a title

[quote

Your point may well apply more generally (although I'd argue only really amongst the AG-ranks, seeing as crashes in WTS races are relatively rare), however in this particular race all of the crashes bar the JB one were happening on the same corner as the athletes descended down into the underpass and straight into a tight left-hander.

This part of the course was exactly the same as last year and it was clearly an issue with the track surface; the added technical sections were the coned-off turnarounds further around the lap.

Also your points about the strong capable riders getting slowed or tangled in the mayhem seems completely irrelevant seeing as Duffy and JB both crashed when they were at the front on their own...[/quote]



Johnny and Duffy aren't the only strong , capable riders...There were way more crashes between the 2 races than just that corner, not all made the live feed. Actually every single wts race pretty much has crashes, we just don't see them all on screen.

Ancient history. ITU did a full scale investigation on this. Henri did a great job cooperating. ITU President feels good about it. Case Closed...

---

Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

YEP, nothing to see here, he has been training really hard while all the others spent their pre season eating maccas and playing video games..... Pink

I was half joking really (I haven't even seen the race) I firmly beleive in innocent until proven guilty, maybe Schoeman can just get into great shape for big competition (Comm games) years.

Schoeman said he never tested positive, or had a TUE or an adverse finding.

🙄

Check out his brake hoods after his crash. The right side is completely jacked. He very likely had a lot of impairment braking on the corners after that. That being said JB needs AB way more than AB needs JB.

If he said it, then its over. Why would he not say the truth? I heard that for 2.019 anti doping controls are going to be replaced by a questionaire.

Henri Schoeman is a beast in the water, he must be training in the endless pool with lionel. Also Flora Duffy and Johnny Brownlee should get bike handling tips from sanders if they wanna get on the podium this year. Also Also on a less serious note, this race was brilliant, im all up for more technical courses like this. Finally just wanted to comment that Katie Z and Flora D were riding disk brakes and crashed while braking, whats that with the braking superiority of disk brakes?

FIFY to separate out the true from the absurd, just for other readers. :) While Henri is indeed quite fast in the water, i highly doubt his speed is from an EP. Speed in the water almost always comes from hard intervals in the pool. Further, i just can not believe how many references to Sanders have occurred in this thread (i.e., many others besides you) when the guy was not even in the race.

In any case, i thought it was very cool that Schoeman took a 30 sec lead over Mola coming out of the water, and made it stick for a 6 sec win. First OOTW and first OV at the end, very nice!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Wasn´t Johnny Brownlee riding a bike with disc-brakes too? There you go...

Anywhere to watch this race without the subscription?

No there's not but I think you'll find that if you fork over the twenty something dollars for the whole season plus all the archived footage it won't take long to realize it was money well spent. I did anyhow and I'm a total cheap skate.

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

They show it on a Comcast channel 870 OLY in my neck of woods. Day after event I think. Last year they were on NBC related channel if memory serves.

Anyone know why Kasper was pulled to the penalty tent? Per her social media accounts, the 10 sec penalty was called erroneously and overturned following the race, but she wasn’t allowed onto the podium....

She said it was a littering penalty that she protested and had overturned. Seems like bullshit to me that a penalty can be protested, and won, but the podium spot is forever gone. I knew the result already but watching her charge for the line was awesome, such a close finish.

The OLYMPIC Channel carries ITU this season.... (591/Verizon in Philly). They are replaying the men's race tomorrow at 10:30am.

Sooo, the problem with protesting a penalty is this... You can not serve the penalty, protest it, and if you win, get your result.... But if you lose the protest, get DQ'd... or you can serve it and then get the safe result. that said, if you protest successfully, they cannot take it off your time (rule 3.2g (point ii))... She made the call to serve the 10sec penalty and still have a guaranteed top 4, rather than to risk not serving it for 3rd place (possibly 2nd with how she sprinted) and then potentially be DQ'd... (since ultimately you have to provide compelling evidence that you didn't commit the violation, so it's contingent on there being a camera on the incident or witnesses corroborating the story at a minimum)

Based on social media, it was a littering penalty that was mistakenly given to her instead of someone else. Curious as to who actually committed the penalty, from the stream, I couldn't tell...

No wonder she's pissed. That puts an athlete in the position to make that choice literally in the middle of a race. I dunno how they could do it better, but that still seems pretty questionable to me.

It's a gamble for sure, and with the penalties for sprint distance being only 10sec, there's really only one call to make... as she did. I can see why they don't want to be changing times adding or removing penalties after the fact, so that the order at the finish is the order (minus any DQs obviously) and to give the other athletes a shot at a result (like if you subtracted the 10sec from her time, she might have ended up 2nd, but that wouldn't give Learmonth a chance to sprint against her to try and hang on to second...)...

I know some governing bodies (USAT being one of them) sometimes do the time penalties after the fact, rather than using a penalty box. That system has some merits, but in terms of those watching the race, it gets a bit confusing... Not sure what is the ideal situation... my gut says the ITU system gets it right, but it royally sucks in cases like what happened to Kasper (in years of following ITU racing, this is the first case like that I have come across...).

I have no inherent problem with athletes making split second choices, they do that hundreds of times during a race... In ITU racing, the coaches/team managers hang around the penalty board after T2 to be able to relay the info to their athletes, along with their recommendation as to when to serve, and possibly whether to protest (ultimately there's a very tight window after the finish in which they can lodge a protest).

I absolutely saw someone throw something out of that group to the right side of the road and it wasn't Kasper. Remember seeing it and thinking "oh penalty!" but didn't hear about her fiasco until much later. Will have to go back and review the footage to see if I can discern who it was. Regardless, someone in that group is full aware that it was them and I would hope has the character to apologize to her privately, if not in public. The real offender got off easy and cost Kasper a podium spot (or two), $$, series points and more. She was robbed and has been incredibly polite about it

Any idea why Kristen was initially assigned a DQ if she served her penalty before finishing? I've not found an explanation.

Thanks,

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Was it confirmed she was initially assessed a DQ? Are DQs on the spot normal? All I saw her say was she was given the bad penalty.

And yeah, she was really robbed here. I feel for her, and am impressed with how she's handled it.

The official ITU results listed her as a DQ on their web site and later changed it to show her with 4th place. IIRC Richard Murray was DQed on the spot for his outburst last year.

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

But I thought Murray made his obscene gesture in the direction of the official, not at the official... In his case, I don't even think that's a protestable offense... Abuse of an official is auto-DQ (no time penalty, straight up red card)... I think he is smarter than that now, given that he is the self-professed most penalized athlete in the ITU...

Not sure why the results would have temporarily listed her as DQ'd, it could have been a misunderstanding as to whether or not the penalty had been served when going through the protest process (initial protest to head referee, who likely upheld the FOP call, which would then result in a DQ if she hadn't served the penalty... the decision could then be appealed to a competition jury process... which given the outcome in this case, would have likely ruled in her favor overturning the the penalty...

I'd have to go back and watch to see who littered where (because there are legal litter zones... it's littering outside of those zones that results in the time penalty...) to see if we could figure out who was the culprit. It's shitty for sure, and you would hope the guilty party apologizes (they would likely wait until after the 48hr window for the results revision process... to not open themselves up to a protest and potential DQ...), but who knows if they would.

Not sure what is the ideal situation.//

I understand why they do what they do, but they could easily put in place one more thing to make it fair for the injured party here. Do it all as they did, but if they fucked up by getting the wrong number, take the 10 seconds off her time and double up the place it would have given her on time. That way you dont have to wonder who would have won a spring finish, just assume they tied, double up the money and points to each.


Not sure why they don't do something like that, but I'm am smarter and fairer than most who write these rules. It's ok and they have my permission to steal this one from me...(-;

I saw Kasper toss something just after T2 and I assumed the penalty was for that. But if the penalty was "overturned" post hoc, then that likely wasn't the foul that was called. I also have no idea where the legal littering zone was. It sure is a tough situation, but I think I see the benefits to this rule as written to generally outweigh risks of misapplied penalties. However I thought I heard some reference that Kasper saw her number on the penalty list but was not informed of the violation. That sounds like a rule that needs to change. If you are called for a penalty and you must choose to serve or not serve (based on potential future protest) then you certainly deserve to be pre-informed of the specific rule which was violated. This should be an easy change to implement on the white boards. eg "#42 Wetsuit out of box"

However I thought I heard some reference that Kasper saw her number on the penalty list but was not informed of the violation. That sounds like a rule that needs to change. If you are called for a penalty and you must choose to serve or not serve (based on potential future protest) then you certainly deserve to be pre-informed of the specific rule which was violated. This should be an easy change to implement on the white boards. eg "#42 Wetsuit out of box"

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The current setup is fine. We are seeing a very very rare and crappy situation.


Besides there is no way to tell the athlete and have a discussion on the case. The official in penalty box has zero clue what infraction athlete did other then being told in his/her ear piece. They have no way of knowing if it truly was #3 instead of #2. They are there to just make sure you serve it and time your penalty. They aren’t the ones to argue over by any means.

So moral of story. A) always have race support identity penalties for athletes. Ive seen 3 instances in last 2 itu events both locally and at World Cup level where lack of support watching penalties caused DQ because athlete missed it. B) always serve your penalty. C) kasper got screwed unfortunately D). You won’t see itu ever take time off. It just won’t happen.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I don’t think ITU should alter the results in this case. What is done is done. But I’ve said before, triathlon is a young sport and it’s rulebook is immature. It must continue to evolve. I propose 1 simple change: to notify the athlete of the nature of the infraction at the time of notification of the existence of the infraction.

How? You know almost all the mount and dismount infractions are noticed after the fact by video replays (while they are either biking and/or out of T2 on run). By the volume of athletes entering T2 together they can’t do that ruling instantaneous.

Same with swim start infractions. They review the video and then give the infractions. In case of swim start they serve it in T1. In case of mount/dismount issue they serve it on run.

I guess technically they could force a mount issue penalty in T2.

But what your proposing would only work in very few instances.

Like I said this was a very rare instance. They don’t neee to re-do entire system because of the issue (and yes it sucks ass it happened).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

they could go to tacking the penalty on after the race. if you appeal and win, then no harm and no foul. if you appeal and lose, then you lose 10 seconds but you will avoid the situation here where you can "serve" an incorrect penalty and drop 2 spots.

Problem with that is tv won’t like it. Right now it’s really simple.

1st to line wins. We don’t have to wait and wonder on penalties. Now in a rare case like this the athlete is screwed. But I’ve been around itu races since 2009 and can’t recall this happening before. So like I said we are talking about something that rarely happens and trying to change a very efficient system.

What’s more often is athletes going to races, missing their penalty and getting dq’d. If that’s your athlete or federation you probaly feel pretty damn bad. Like I said I saw it happen 2 times this past weekend and it’s not a fun feeling I’d think (even worse if your there on sight as a coach).

I think it sucks but I think what is being offered is not better. You won’t have the man power (officials) to tell every athlete instantaneous of an infraction.

And waiting til the end to tack on penalty was what was being offered before and why itu wanted penalties to be served during the race and the finish was the finish. Not figuring out who does or doesn’t have an penalty and then calculating splits etc.

“1st to line” is a very appealing finish for tv and or simplicity.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

How come none of you ITU guys are commenting on my solution. What is the downside??? At least the offended athlete gets some satisfaction after the fact and the TV show can go on as it would otherwise...

What was your proposal? To give time back?

I think I already commented on that. I dont see that happening. Your result is what it is, no time being added it subtracted; even if it means in rare instances an athlete gets “screwed”.

But like I said this is so rare that if they gave the time back I wouldn’t be opposed. As I said the system they have now works really really well. We are talking about an rare occurance.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Post #124

His idea is you give back the time but you don’t move anyone down in place. I like it. Essentially you have 2 x 3rd place athletes in this scenario.

I agree with you that the order of finish over the line is a sacred thing. But so is, well, fairness. This seems to be a way for those two to coexist.

Thanks aj, glad someone gets it. Is it just too simple for people to grasp?? As an ex pro that got screwed more than my share of the time, fairness is big in my list of possible race outcomes.. I guess most people have not been screwed like I have or this particular person, and the empathy is lacking for injustice...

I think fairness is big on everyone and FYI this issue doesn’t happen as often as it seemed to happen to athletes in the past. So I like the idea. I think it’ll be hard to implement only because it messes with “your finish is your finish”. Even if that means “fairness” is compromised 0.1% of the time.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I think it’ll be hard to implement only because it messes with “your finish is your finish”.//

That's just a made up construct and has no real bearing in history or fairness. So my question is, why can it not be adjusted ever so slightly when something grossly erroneous happens to an athlete? IF Ironman could get over the mass start in favor of waves, pro and AG starts, then this is easy in the scheme of things. That is if you care about fairness and take responsibility for your own screw ups, rather than putting them on a non offending athlete...

It can be. And because if it’s so rare occurance that it can be corrected I’m not opposed it.

And if your tone is suggesting that I don’t care about fairness you can go take a hike Monty.

I’m just suggesting to you how I see it happening.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I've seen essentially that situation happen for a marathon, where the course markings were off, and the main chase pack ended up cutting 400m off the course, they did a countback, and anyone who would have ended up in the money got partial prize money (but the legit top 10 finishers got their rightful money as well...). It was an expense for the organizers, but it helped ensure that fewer people left with a sour taste in their mouth. The idea makes sense, it could work, it'll be interesting to see if the rule moves there.

In terms of instantly telling people their infractions... in triathlon, much like in police work, they are basically moving towards body cameras for officials, so everything is filmed... After the swim start, they review the video, after T1, after T2, etc. so it's hard to tell people at the instance it happens. In terms of posting the rule violated, as others correctly pointed out, the official calling the infraction is not radioing the penalty tent... They are radioing the head referee, and may or may not actually spell out the infraction (often they call the head referee over to have the discussion and then ultimately make a call), who then has the final say as to whether to radio the penalty over to the penalty tent... The priority, especially for littering penalties on the run, is to get them posted ASAP, because the penalty has to be on the board before the athlete passes the penalty box to start their last lap... After the fact, when the violation report is posted, it then spells out the particular rule violated, or when the athlete inquires about potentially protesting the call, they would get the specific details... The majority of times that people skip out on penalties it's not because they are gambling on the appeal, it's because they missed it (their coach or parent or member of their entourage never bothered to check the board)... Especially in a sprint, where it's a 10sec penalty, you pretty much have to serve it, because that's typically only a few spots and it's a lot to gamble those guaranteed points and dollars to possibly move up a couple of spots (we'd be more likely to see this for more minor placings towards the tail end of the olympic qualifying window, when people may gamble to try and move up to get the points they need to qualify). In a longer distance event where the penalties are longer, then it's a bit more of a decision to make, but I don't know a single coach who would advise their athlete to skip it and protest for 10sec...

And if your tone is suggesting that I don’t care about fairness you can go take a hike Monty. //

My tone in this is directed at Race directors. You personally cannot do anything about this, except agree or not that fairness should be a priority. I personally have been able to change a couple race directors minds over the years when this happened, so I will continue to put this out there. When a race I race directed at made a mistake, it was my solution to the problem, not blaming the athletes for not knowing the course. It seemed the right and simple thing to do back then, I don't see anything that has changed that would negate this easy and fair solution..

if memory serves, this was actually an explicit criteria (one of several) that the IOC put on triathlon before they got into the games in 2000. first across the line had to be the winner.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I am not one to pass judgement on HS for his Rio TUE but I found it absurd that with all the random commentary not once did Trevor or Barry mention it. It was the biggest Triathlon news for a full week just a month ago. This means that they were either totally in the dark and out of touch with this (which I can't see Barry missing) or they made a conscious effort to leave it out of the conversation. To me I think it was their job to bring it to the attention of the greater Triathlon community as they are the Voices of the WTS. That doesn't mean thy needed to give their personal opinion on it but the topic should have been addressed.

Who else thinks they had a gag order to avoid any heat on WTS decision to wave any penalties because Henri was so cooperative?

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

Me 100%
Doesn't make me happy though, and I will pass judgement, the whole thing is bullshit, IOC and ITU appearing very corrupt with what went on here. Isn't the first time, won't be the last.

Who else thinks they had a gag order to avoid any heat on WTS decision to wave any penalties because Henri was so cooperative? //

My hand is up. You remember when the TDF was going and Phil and Paul would not mention he who could not be mentioned? It is a very small world the ITU, not surprising that there is a circling of the wagons in cases like this. These guys all make their living in this sport, a black eye on one athlete hits everyone just a little more than hearing some football player got busted for a pharmacy full of drugs...

That’s a good way to look at it. I was thinking it could have been used in the context of “Henri had some off season contravercy which must be fueling his fire today” or similar. No need to go too deep into it. Barry knows what these guys have for breakfast so it was odd to not hear any mention of it. LOL

I’m really happy for Henri, glad to see him come out and show he didn’t fluke out in 2016. I think he’s entitled to a clean slate and he’s earned it. He out classed the field from start to finish this weekend and hats off to him.

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

It was mentioned in the BBC commentary as soon as HS broke on the bike (both were very political about it)

Only just caught up on this race was going to bring up the BBC commentary team as they were well off the ball with a lot of the race (even before reading the thread and realising someone had a penalty, no mention of that by the BBC) will be getting a Triathlon Live pass to watch the rest of the season.

Great race for Learmonth, I wonder how she fits in with the other four Brit girls (Holland/Stimpson/Jenx/Stanford) when all fully fit? Im guessing she will no longer be seen as a domestique for any of them.

Its a pitty Ali had to pull out this race as I think he'd have won it, I don't see HS breaking on the bike away from Ali or out running him if the pair had broke together.

I assume you are a Brit and congrats to team GB! That being said, lets be honest here, if Mola couldn't run him down Ali didn't stand a chance. It really all came down to the corners. I think being by himself gave HS less things to consider in all of those corners. If Ali had been out there with him I think the chase pack would have reeled them back in but we will never know. Commonwealth Games should be a doozie!!

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

I think you're missing the point, does Ali allow HS to break and stay away? I know Ali hasn't done much short course at all recently but I'd still back him over HS if they came out of T2 together!

Matt Chilton is a terrible commentator, I don't now why the BBC continue to employ him for triathlon. Occasionally they have Rob Walker who is so much better (he's also really good on the XC skiing/biathlon at the winter olympics). Actually the best commentator the BBC have used recently is Ali Brownlee! When he worked on the Nottingham Relays last year he hardly let Matt Chilton get a word in edgeways.

I forget where I saw him commentate, but it was absolutely mind blowing how poised and insightful he was. It was a triathlon, and he definitely carried his weight and then some.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

He did the Jersey Super League tri too IIRC

The pair of them thought they were watching a replay of Stanford crashing in the tunnel with Zaferes right next to her who was about 30secs infront of Stanford, took them about 10 secs to realise this and then click it was Coldwell.

The biggest howler came when she thought Lisa Nordin was Norweigen and he embarassingly corrected her straight away.

Superleague Jersey, he was brilliant!

He commentated on the Mixed Team Relay event that they had in Nottingham last year on the BBC too; I think AB was supposed to be racing but pulled out at the last minute so they hauled him into the commentary box.

It was a pretty small event and didn't get much coverage but AB he certainly made it more interesting!

Agree he is a great commentator, though he has to stop talking about slowing each other down when swimming next to each other.

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

I don't know enough to judge his TUE stuff (seems shady) but from a pure racing POV he earned it today. Best swim, got away/ stayed away, held on. I'm glad Mola didn't catch him.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Yeah, spend the money. Hours of trainer fodder! The recaps are nice for shorter sessions, and there are so many years on there.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

He was brilliant in the Super League Jersey stuff...such a difference maker. You can tell his passion for the sport.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team