& they (aeroLAB) are looking for beta test riders .. https://www.aerolab.tech/consumers

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I am the main engineer/scientist/cyclist/triathlete/techjunkie behind the sensor (Chris Morton, if you want to look me up). Happy to discuss it and answer as many questions as possible. I also would love to hear advice/feedback on what would be your ideal product to use on a daily basis.
- For those that are experienced with GoldenCheetah, at the end of a ride would you like the 'aerolab' feature to be done automatically via an app? Keep in mind, the automatic computation would include a graphical representation of the data, and enable adjustments to be made so you are no relinquishing control.
- Would you see value in building an avatar which provided CdA information for different positions/equipment/environmental conditions?

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Chris Morton, PhD
Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering
co-Founder and inventor of AeroLab Tech
For updates see Instagram

It'd be nice if you could set it to automatically aerolab the ride, so long as it was optional. It'd definitely help for the people who aren't familiar with GC/Aerolab.

As for the avatar, incorporating a "baseline" setup the rider could refer back to (and, if they were really trying to keep things as accurate as possible, test again at the beginning of each new session) might be nice. I know I have a notebook full of dates/temp/wind/test protocol/etc that is a bit of a chore to update on site. (I always forget something if I wait until later) So the ability to "store" some gear you know you'd be using over and over (bike/helmet/suit/etc) would make things a lot quicker.

Would hope for a more "user friendly/easy mode/quick recap" App, (would be especially nice for traveling testers/races so they don't need a laptop/pc to pour over data) but still the ability to upload it in GC and have full control.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Hi Chris, is there any chance to be considered for a beta test rider living in the Kurpfalz (Germany), the region riding on two wheels was invented 200 years before, than I'd apply .. a S5, P2M, N2C, GC and 900h/y is on my plus side .. I'm not racing any more on my minus ..

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Absolutely. For me I want data - loads of it, in a variety of environments. If you are quite tech savvy with experience in GoldenCheetah and other platforms, even better.
Beta riders will roll out in phases. Will keep you up to date on when we expect this to happen this year.

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Chris Morton, PhD
Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering
co-Founder and inventor of AeroLab Tech
For updates see Instagram

I applied & will prepare my self with some stretching to get the head down (ore what ever helps) .. spring will come ..

Cheers,
#anno

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I wouldn't mind a beta as well count me in.

You are in! Just complete the survey/application form from our website (link is at the bottom): https://www.aerolab.tech/consumers

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Chris Morton, PhD
Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering
co-Founder and inventor of AeroLab Tech
For updates see Instagram

This would certainly be optional (using the aerolab type analysis post-ride). Some rides will not prove to be worth completing any analysis for CdA (e.g., rides with substantial use of brakes, or drafting when you really want an unassisted CdA value). Indeed, the key is to bring in current GC experts as well as new consumers - people who aren't familiar with GC. Those unfamiliar with GC would benefit substantially from the automated analysis.
For the avatar, indeed, data collected on a baseline setup (you will have freedom to name your setups, e.g., "aero01") would be good to have for comparison. The intent for the avatar is to integrate this into a race course emulator - ideally enabling the software to make equipment suggestions for the rider to have his/her optimal performance for a known course and anticipated environmental conditions.

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Chris Morton, PhD
Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering
co-Founder and inventor of AeroLab Tech
For updates see Instagram

Are you not concerned about stagnation effects with the probe so close to the bike?

Absolutely. Very concerned! It was the main focus of our patent filing. A major portion is on the calibration and use of a pitot tube based sensor in proximity to a deformable body. Would love to discuss this in detail (actually its killing me that I can't!).

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Chris Morton, PhD
Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering
co-Founder and inventor of AeroLab Tech
For updates see Instagram

Why kind of mounting solutions are you planning on having? I signed up for beta testing and hoping for a way to mount it to my speed concept.

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blog

We run Go-Pro style mounting kits on the current prototypes, and had some past prototypes with garmin quarter-turn mounts. We will ensure that mounting options allow for different TT setups and road bikes. This is actually an area of interest for feedback through the beta testing.

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Chris Morton, PhD
Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering
co-Founder and inventor of AeroLab Tech
For updates see Instagram

I do a lot of field testing -- pretty much every week -- and I'd love to be in as well. I can get you tons of data. I filled out the form.

As for what I'd like to see on the tech side, I'd rather *not* use Golden Cheetah aerolab. GC aerolab is clunky for doing multiple tests and also for tests involving two separate runs that you want to splice together (one each direction on the same road). It's hard to remove chunks you don't want (the turnaround), and you have to manually do each run. If you do 5 runs you have to manually do it 5 times, and if the 5 runs are out and backs with a turnaround you have to chop out the turnaround 5 times! I'd rather a piece of software that displayed every lap in your fit file and computed CdA for each lap, and then allowed you to combine laps as you please. If that doesn't make sense I can try to explain better. That would be really slick.

I applied after reading DC's post. Think I tick all the boxes... Forgot to add I am a GoldenCheetah user and would absolutely love to see this integrated in the software! PM me for more details if you feel like it.

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Sr. Salitre

A collection of avatars would be great. I race some local time trials where I don't pull out the top of the line gear or it is so hilly a road bike is a better option. At others it is "weapons grade" aero. This would also allow a tester to set a default total weight for each setup.

An option for doing Crr testing, using end points with known elevations, would also be a cool feature. I tried writing my own code for simultaniously solving for the CdA and Crr values and that was a disaster.

This looks like a totally cool product and I would love to help with the beta testing. Best of luck.

This is an interesting thought that I haven't perfected yet - I currently have the sensor picking up when you are braking (aggressively), as well as when you are cornering/turning around (not so difficult with GPS tracking + accelerometer, though feathering or momentarily touching the brakes can be tricky to 'sense'). This enables the real-time CdA to remain stable under these conditions since it simply checks and discards or ignores the data under those conditions. The time-stamps surrounding a corner or turn-around are tracked and saved during the ride. With some fancy math, this could be used to do as you said, remove chunks you don't want.

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Chris Morton, PhD
Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering
co-Founder and inventor of AeroLab Tech
For updates see Instagram

This one?

https://www.google.com/...WO2017197524A1?cl=en

Based on what is written, it appears that a correction is applied based on the assumed impact of the trailing object on the local flow field around the sensor?

Wouldn't it just have been simpler to locate the sensor far enough forward to avoid any such issues in the first place?

engineers will never get that one past marketing...

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Wow, I didn't even know it was google searchable... eek. The 'assumed' impact of the trailing object on the local flow field around the sensor is modeled well as an irrotational component, particularly since you are well upstream of separation. We have experimental data backing this up - almost to the point where 'assumed' could be replaced with '-', though strictly speaking we cannot say it is perfect (coming from an academic).

Now, to your other question, why not locate the sensor far enough forward? Sure, you can do that. Far enough forward for one rider may not be far enough forward for another due to differences in the rider body position and rider size (his/her effects on the pressure field). You are also placing a restriction on the volume of space in front of the rider where the sensor can be mounted. In our case, there are fewer restrictions on the location where the sensor can be mounted. We believe this enables significantly more flexibility for a user.

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Chris Morton, PhD
Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering
co-Founder and inventor of AeroLab Tech
For updates see Instagram

Hi Chris,

I'm also very interested in helping you guys Beta test this, filled out the form.

With regards to your earlier questions of how/where to display the data post-ride, an app is great (vs GC on a desktop) so that you can get faster results in the field of what works and doesn't, allowing for faster iteration. Ideally if the main cycling computer collecting all the data can use the "lap" separation to enable the CdA calculation for the specific sections where a given item/aspect was trialed, that would probably be easiest/fastest.

The concept of an "avatar" or toolkit of sorts that can derived from numerous rides that test various aspects is very interesting, although not sure how best to be implemented. A drop-down choice of avatar component "tags" for each ride, so that as you A/B test you can assign a CdA benefit value for said tag? I don't have enough expertise in this field to say whether even if proceeding down that route the accumulated data would be correct, or if there is some amount of interference between various components that would affect their overall benefit or not.

engineers will never get that one past marketing...

Marketing wins the day again! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

If you use a "U-shaped" course, or "half-pipe" profile, you shouldn't need to brake at the turnarounds (since the uphill slows you to a crawl), so no removal necessary. Here's what that type of run ends up looking like (this is my own personal spreadsheet I put together before Aerolab was available...basically the same thing):



Of course, re-looking at your description above...I'm unclear how you're using Aerolab in the first place for the type of testing you describe, since it's intended to evaluate multiple continuous "laps"...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Hi Tom- Yeah the thing is not everyone has a good half pipe course. When you don't, out and back courses with a turn around work great if you can remove the turn around. What I do right now is I hit the lap button for each direction of the out and back test, then remove the turnaround lap -- so laps 1 and 3 are the ones I want and then lap 2 has braking and the turnaround and gets removed. I wrote my own java code that reads in the fit file and then does this automatically for you because I got tired of doing it in GC/Aerolab. Actually the code does even more than that because I can have it automatically control for temperature variation and stuff like that across laps, and it can combine many runs or do them separately or whatever. Since I do a lot of testing it really helps, and I can get the answers quickly in the field if I want.

What ever happened to the aero sensor that Argon was developing?? I assume it never came to market?

became the Notio.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Thx, so guess it has never become available. :(

Currently in beta

I remember the alpha fondly ;)

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Notio, Garmin/Alphamantis, this one...all real and on their way. All from Canadians...hmmm.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

I'd be very interested in beta testing for you guys. I've got a ton of wind tunnel testing time, some velodrome testing time as well as testing myself
both in the velodrome and wind tunnel. Have both bike only & bike + rider data.

I know how many watts of drag I've dropped and the # of watts sacrificed. Now I'm starting the process of adding watts back while keeping any increase in drag < watts gained.

Filling out the form now!

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

It’s not exclusively a Canadian thing :)

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Developing aero, fit and other fun stuff at Red is Faster

We had to downgrade our testers :-)

For the avatar, measurements should be considered for the bicycle-rider system; there may be interference effects. For example, an aerohelmet may not always drop your CdA depending on the geometry of your positioning on the bike. So if you were to allot changes in CdA to specific equipment, it would be relative to some baseline CdA for the same 'position' on the bike. Like 'TT with skinsuit' vs 'TT with blah' vs 'TT with shoe covers'.

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Chris Morton, PhD
Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering
co-Founder and inventor of AeroLab Tech
For updates see Instagram

Understood about the "half-pipe" course. I just wanted to point out that all of the "editing" you do isn't a typical part of VE testing, "half-pipe" or not.

I think if I didn't have a good "half-pipe" available, then my second choice would be a simple loop that doesn't require braking. That will be much easier to use than a "out and back w/editing" approach.

There's no good loops near you either?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Bah! Getting aero drag from field data can't possibly done accurately.

All from Canadians...hmmm.

Jim,

All the good stuff in triathlon and cycling comes from Canada! :-)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

There's actually one good spot with a hill I can turn around on, so I use that one too. I think that's a pretty good solution in general. I get really consistent results on the out and back course (partly because it is sort of wind shadowed), so that's what I use mostly.

Just completed the beta application. Looking forward to hearing back.

Haha, thank you for this! I've also filled out the form. Bought my own weather station (Kestrel 5500) and a tripod for it to weather vane for field testing at a nearby loop and have had excellent results. Honestly, I'd be glad if all this device did was incorporate some more advanced sensors than I can use and then spit all the data into a raw file second by second for me to crunch as I please later, but I know that's not really marketable

You should have patented the whirly-gig device.

Hi,
I filled out your beta form. Since you mention real time data of various sorts as something that might be provided to the rider (and by 'real time' I assume you mean while they are riding), have you given much thought to how this would be provided? data fields on a regular bike computer, so they have to look down to see it)? Displayed in a cycling HMD (e.g., Recon Jet, EvereySight, Garmin Varia)?

Chris

Hi Chris,
You are correct, the data is displayed in real-time to the user (we used a clunky wired programmable display during prototype tests which is absolutely NOT being used for any consumer). In the short term (Beta testing), a ConnectIQ app will enable live viewing of CdA, Crr, Wind Speed, Wind Direction, etc. In the long term, an ANT+ device profile associated to aerodynamic sensor data will be established, and hopefully adopted by head unit manufacturers to enable live display of these same quantities across all brands.

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Chris Morton, PhD
Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering
co-Founder and inventor of AeroLab Tech
For updates see Instagram

It always amazes me how good your VE profiles look. I bet everyone wanted you as a lab partner in Chemistry and Physics.

I'm convinced he simulates them on a computer :-)

The output of my VE spreadsheet typically looks smoother than Aerolab...and I sometimes wonder if it might be how the calculation for kinetic energy changes is handled. It shouldn't be a simple "delta speed over delta time" calculation on each record...a long time ago a guy named Adam Haile educated me on that point ;-) I should check with Andy F. to see how he implemented it in Aerolab.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Conservation of energy must be adhered to! Reminds me of the little video that DCR recorded and posted on our 'first look' (which I did not know he was recording!). For anyone that looked closely at it, the x-axis is labeled incorrectly as Vrel^2 when in reality it is much more complex (just easier to label as one variable though for explanation purposes). For anyone who has played with regression approaches, it is critical to keep track of the energy :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN9YDJag6Ds

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Chris Morton, PhD
Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering
co-Founder and inventor of AeroLab Tech
For updates see Instagram

Is Ray really really bad at holding a TT position?

 

This was a loaner bike that was not fitted to Ray. We just quickly adjusted the seat (nothing else), and off he went! That in mind (likely an uncomfortable ride) there were a few occasions coming out of aero and standing upright. There was also one instance where I believe the gap between the lead rider and Ray was not far enough (I think they came within 3 bike lengths momentarily). There was also one stop sign intersection which was not ideal, and some feathering of brakes may have occurred.

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Chris Morton, PhD
Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering
co-Founder and inventor of AeroLab Tech
For updates see Instagram

Hi Chris,

Thanks for posting here and for your work on this product. It seems very exciting!

I am fairly comfortable with GC & Aerolab, but I'm not sure the benefit of using it in conjunction with your Aerolab device. Maybe I'm missing out on the distinction, but I thought from your Aerolab I would get real-time CdA (and other) data which would mean that I would no longer have the limitations of GC's Aerolab to calculate aerodynamics after-the-fact. Plus, with your device I could test many more "positions" by making small changes on-the-fly and see how CdA changes rather than holding one position for several laps, then a second position for several, etc. (When I say positions, I'm referring to even small things like a shrug or hand position.)

The avatar idea is really good for big things like body position and gear, but ideally there should be a way to incorporate small changes, too, like I mentioned above like hand position. Maybe a way to photograph yourself and store the images along with the avatar.

I see myself, after making many big changes, doing some testing as follows:

I ride a circuit with a phone to record my voice and saying, "at 15:45 [minutes into the ride] I am moving my hands both in front of my BTA, right over left. [reading head unit] That looks to improve CdA to 0.241.... At 18:15 I am moving my hands over my computer, right over left. [reading head unit] That lowers CdA...." I would do repetitive tests of all sorts of combinations of hands and head and shoulders, etc. Then afterwards I would go back and examine the data file for the each position (using my verbal notes on which position was at what times). Then after I settle on a position, I could take a photo if I really wanted just to make sure I got all the nuances correct.

I hope that's clear. This is how I imagine I'd use your unit, but I'm a real data junkie (biologist). I'm not sure if it would be used this way by everyone, but I think this is how people would get the most bang for their buck.

Thanks again!
Mike

Actually...what Adam "taught" me is that it's better to do the calculations with a "work-based" approach (rather than "force-based", as described in Robert's talk outline) and you avoid problems with the acceleration term being a "half-record" behind ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Hi Mike,
This would be the dream - to see these tiny changes in CdA with slight alterations to hand position etc. in real time. Is that realistically achievable?
The challenge, as with any sensor based measurement, is what is your instantaneous uncertainty in CdA that includes both random errors (noise in sensors) as well as bias errors (e.g., bias in power measurement, road slope measurement, etc.). It is my belief that some changes will be discernible immediately (e.g., a CdA change from 0.255 to 0.275 for example), while others require a longer sample of data or repeated trials to determine the change of CdA (e.g., a change from 0.2550 to 0.2555).
Keep in mind, experimental wind tunnel studies have shown that CdA can change with wind speed (i.e., Reynolds number effects), wind yaw (some wheels actually produce thrust at high yaw angles via a type of sail-effect - this will alter the CdA of the bicycle-rider system), crank position (yes, depending on if you have the pedals at 0 and 180 vs 90 and 270 will change CdA though most of this has been attributed to a change in 'A'), etc.

So, if you are riding along for a couple of minutes, monitoring your CdA, and then change your hand position slightly, you might see some change in CdA, but it will be impossible to determine if it was caused by you moving your hand, or caused by any of the above factors (I did not include all factors here).
I should also note, a change from 0.2550 to 0.2555 is 0.0005. For a cyclist at 40kph (11.11 m/s), and density of 1.2 Kg/m^3, this changing from 1925.4 grams of drag to 1929.2 grams of drag. The difference is 3.8 grams. Guess what weighs in at about 3 grams? A penny.

From a practical perspective, detecting a change in drag on that order of magnitude (3.8 grams) is out of the realm of possibility for most wind tunnel facilities (especially once you factor in the effects of repeatability). It will be unlikely to see any sensor system detect changes on that order of magnitude. We (at AeroLab) are scheduling full scale wind tunnel testing in the coming months to better ascertain the limits of the sensor system. It is a critical piece of information for any consumer.

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Chris Morton, PhD
Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering
co-Founder and inventor of AeroLab Tech
For updates see Instagram

GoldenCheetah is a free software project (free as in freedom) -- you are encouraged to contribute ideas, documentation or code.
There is a user group here: https://groups.google.com/...golden-cheetah-users

Altruism can be a two way street.

Mark

What are you views on getting accurate values in typical turbulent air along typical roads?

I've made a similar device* and have struggled to get good precision on days with wind. I think the underlying issue is that the pitot tube is only measuring air pressure at one point in the vertical air column, and moving air and wind gradient in the last couple of metres next to the ground makes it difficult to infer what the total air force is.

*http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...F_P6481386/#p6481386

I certainly followed that post and ST thread. Your device is damn small and sleek.
This is a great discussion.
So, in making your device, you struggled with good 'precision' on days with wind. Basically a lot more scatter in your average values of CdA, but the scatter still surrounded your expected value (i.e., accurate but not precise from run to run)?
To me this is not particularly surprising, as the rate of convergence of mean quantities will likely scale with the turbulence level and the integral length scale of the turbulence (i.e., a longer statistical sample is required to obtain a converged mean quantity in the presence of stronger fluctuating components and low frequency fluctuations).

Did you do an analysis of the wind measurements (mean, RMS, spectral energy content, and integral length scale) to see if each run had the same statistics? I believe this would be needed to determine if your scatter is attributed to experiencing different turbulence levels or attributed to statistical convergence issues.

Now, when it comes to atmospheric turbulence, the integral length scales are significantly larger than the size of a rider. I haven't actually ever estimated the kolmogorov length scales (dissipation scales) expected for atmospheric turbulence, but I would propose that the typical length scales of turbulence encountered by a rider are significantly larger than the rider. And so, the fluctuation in wind is a global fluctuation that is felt across the entire vertical column. Certainly the no-slip condition ought to hold true for the ground plane, and so we anticipate a velocity gradient to exist in the presence of wind. I have been stopping quite a bit along various routes to measure the velocity gradients in heavy wind conditions (>10kph). My experience is that the severity of the gradient was always dependent on the local terrain, so it was difficult to have a single perfect model fit. Nevertheless, we have a basic model that we have created from experiments on the road (we apply a modest gradient to the velocity field in a polynomial-type fit). I am still playing with this to see if CdA results turn out better when applying such a model - basically you need to compute the velocity of the wind in a fixed reference frame (vector subtraction of the rider velocity), and then apply the model, and then add the rider velocity back. There is still a challenge of deciding what velocity you use to compute the CdA since the frontal area is a function of the y-normal distance from the ground plane. It has been a bit of a rabbit hole for me.

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Chris Morton, PhD
Associate Professor, Mechanical Engineering
co-Founder and inventor of AeroLab Tech
For updates see Instagram

Is Ray really really bad at holding a TT position?


Ray's brilliance is in his passion and deep knowledge of the training technology sector. I doubt there is anyone else around who has the knowledge and info about this area. Ray's always been my go-to when I have questions about tech and gear in this area.

That he's not so good in the aero position - not so much of a problem for me.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

It sounds like you've put a lot more legwork into the issue than me!
No I'm not doing any post processing other than just for determining average wind direction. I basically just do a variation of the virtual elevation method and spew out the results direct to the garmin. I got as far as pondering that I might need an algorithm for quantifying the pressure variations and and either alerting the user that the data is probably a bit rubbish, or just dropping significant digits off the cda value. It was more a case of remembering what an old paraglider instructor said about always visualise the air flowing over the land like water round an object in a stream. And while cycling along, visualising how the wind was flowing over the adjacent hedge next to me, and seeing in mind all the vortices swirling across the road, I decided that I probably needed to live somewhere with less wind and hedges to get nice values :)
But yes spectral analysis certainly might be the answer to a least giving the user an index as to what level of confidence they can have in the numbers.

Sorry to be late to the party.

Yeah, GC/Aerolab can be a PITA if you're doing non-standard things. Unfortunately, I don't speak C++ so I can't really contribute to GC, other than to make suggestions.

In general, there are a few PITA things that happen quite frequently when you want to analyze rides.

1. Excise a turnaround or braking incident or a spoiled lap and then paste the file back together.

2. Split a ride and mirror reverse the VE for half of it, like for an out-and-back.

3. Overlay repeated laps or portions of laps, with the laps synchronized on distance and starting (or ending) at the same elevation.

I've written little R functions to do these three things. I had, at one point, hoped that I could learn enough C++ to do that in GC and use the mouse to do this but reality eventually set in.