I slept in yesterday, so just an 8 mi fartlek run.
Today 7.5 mi easy run and 375 yd swim (350 free + 25 kick)

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Thursday:
15 x 300 @ 4:00, 7 swim, 3 snorkel, 1 snorkel and paddles, 1 paddle and buoy, 2 paddles, 1 swim
2 x 150 @ 2:00
100 CD

Two out of 5 woke up sick this morning, so just going through the motions until I get it, or hopefully dodge this cold:

3x100s@1;40(1;28/1;25)
3x100IM kick@2;05(1;57's)
7x200p@3;00(2;44 to 2;38) 100IM kick(1;57a0
100 breast/100free@2;00(1;35/1;24)
50brst/50free@1;00(43/38) 100IM kick(1;50)
2500SCY

5000m yesterday afternoon and another 5000m this morning. Not my smartest move!

400Y WU
Pyramid 100, 200, 300, 400, 400, 300, 200, 100 steady
4x 50 (sprint 25, slow 25)
200 CD

Did my first 4K of the year yesterday:

500 easy WU
500 pull, 400 kick
450 pull, 350 kick
400 pull, 300 kick
3x300 pull
200 easy CD

Today I have 2900 yard swim planned, followed by easy 6K run afterwards.

500 @ 8:00
500 @ 7:30
Straight into
5 x 100 @ 1:30
1200 snorkel
6 x 100 @ 1:30
5 x 200 @ 3:00, paddles
6 x 100 @ 1:30 no paddles
7 x 100 variable rest, alternating 50 stoke or kick/50 free

5600 long course meters

Yesterday
500s
1000IM kwf
200IM w/fins
300 pull
4x[4x25 progressive] avg=:20/:18/:17/:16 last one :15
100 s/k cool
2500 yards
and then a 5.33 mile run in 43 minutes

This morning
500s
500p
2x[3x150kwf alt fl/bk/fr]
200 IM w/fins
5x100IM@2:00
400 s/k cool
3000 yards

No run - giving my hip the day off - flip turns hurt like hell, so I quit doing them.

---

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

I'm going to beat up on you again....posting workouts has almost zero value to other readers....can we talk about the actual techinical parts of swimming of it this month a bit more than just talking about feats of strength (for that we can go to any bike FTP thread anyway). I learn almost zero about swimming just reading about other people's workouts, whereas when some of you post about what you are working on, it is often more enlightening than almost all the coaches on the deck that I had access to (I think I just got stuck with useless people.....or it might just be that when people type to explain they actually have to do a better job explaining the body motions).

How about we train all month for an end of month virtual swim meet? What events this month? I vote for 200 IM, 100 free, 50 fly. Next month I am going to spring the 200m fly on you guys unless more people talk about actual swimming then just post math/feats of strength numbers!!!

OK, today's feats of strength was a 4500m swim, where for the breast stroke legs I did 2 breast kicks per pull (similar timing to fly 2 kicks for each pull....is that correct to get the timing)?

Also I did a few 25 m sprints dolphin kick with fins on no breathing. A few underwater, a few at the surface. I found the "at surface" easier. Is this correct. At the surface feels like more front of body work (abs, quads)....underwater, you're working both sides. I was faster at the surface!!!

i work on pretty much the same things every time I'm in the water, so that'll get pretty boring very quickly.

Here's a challenge for you, what do you think those things are, in broad strokes?

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

posting workouts has almost zero value to other readers//

Actually it is a great resource for the fishes to pinch a workout or particular set or two. This thread has historically been mostly ex swimmers, thus just the bare bones actual workouts, sometimes accompanied with times, and an occasional reason for the set. But you have come busting into the house now and want to learn all this new fangled stuff, which is fine. But I think you will have to continue to ask your specific questions, and of course you will get answers here. We pretty much know why everyone is doing such and such, and take it for granted if they don't ask questions, then it is just plain swimming as usual.


But of course every once in awhile someone posts up a video of a spectacular race with a fast time, and even then they get critiqued on the finer points, so not that we are above it, just not as excited about it as you are at the moment...


I love the idea about a virtual swim meet, think I may have even had it a long time ago. Hell, maybe we even did it and I forgot!!


SO 200IM, 100 free, and 50 fly this month, sounds good to me. Of course we will have to accommodate all the distance formats, LCM< SCM< and SCY, but us fishes know how to do that easy enough. Lets throw ages and sex into the results too, make it a bit more fun for comparisons...

Forgot to add, I agree with you that running workouts need to be purged from this thread, not sure how or why they creeped in..

the running is all TC's fault,

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I would think in broad strokes the only three things you are thinking are streamline (at all times), strong catch and pull, and how your body position gets messed up on not when breathing. This would be outside of hitting your pace times. Would this cover what I need to be thinking of?

OK, this all makes sense. I suppose if I was on a tennis or soccer thread, I'd just post the score and stats, but I would not be talking about the fine craft of what the technical nuances were to get there, so now that you provide that context, I get that for the rest of you guys, the "box score" from the workout, tells enough of what was going on. This would be like me posting the results from a Cricket T-20 international. They would make almost no sense to you guys.....that's the problem when those of us who did not grow up swimming come on this thread. We're only getting box scores that give us no instruction on what to go do and work on to become better swimmers.

Unfortunately for you guys, my persistence rate is high (both in sport and in life), so I'll be asking you guys what you were working on and what I was working on. I do think that if you guys share those, you will get some more people who are not from a swimmer background join in and use this thread as a resource (and add to it)

Can someone tell me what the timing of the two kick breast stroke drill should feel like. I assume there is one hard kick and one shorter tight kick like when doing fly?

In terms of the virtual swim meet, Monty, or Jason, why don't you guys pick a monthly set of events (I vote for no 1500m and 800m please since those are more or less Olympic and Sprint tri distance....prefer swim events that don't happen in a tri). I suppose it would be enough to know if it is SCM, LCM, SCY. Not sure if we need to divide up age groups etc (well, in my case, I'll be last place regardless, until we slice it and dice it to 52 year old guys on ST from Ottawa Canada with 40,000 posts, who is tech company founder whose 21 year old avoids talking with him....OK, on the last one, maybe that's most people with a 21 year old).

Alright I will keep asking. If someone can answer the 2 kick breast stroke drill that a few have mentioned that would be great.

My focus right now is pulling more with my lats - I have a somewhat flat stroke/low hip rotation, and tend to rely on my upper back muscles and under-use my lats. I also have a slight hitch in my stroke somewhere in the pull on the righthand side; based on swimming on a tether, I believe I have a slightly slower recovery on that side. I suppose lately I've also been thinking about tight streamlines off the wall.

Mostly, when I get in for 10 minutes after I run, the sole goal is to preserve feel for the water. So what I'm REALLY working on is getting out of bed earlier so I have more time to swim ;-)

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

1 pull-2 kicks breaststroke can help with timing, and for being farther extended out front into a streamline.

I'm a lifelong swimmer, and my technique is pretty much grooved in (for better or worse). I do think of anfew technique things here and there, like the pitch of my hand, high elbow on both arms (since I breathe to one side 95% of the time), snapping my turn (using my head for momentum), head position on the streamline, more of a wave action in fly, using my head, rotating and kicking in backstroke.

Other times, like in yesterday's long course session, where I made up my own practice, I thought about listening to my body/fitness as I swam through. I adjusted speed and intensity to stay aerobic once I figured out my speed just wasn't there yesterday.

Over the years, in swimming, marathons, and ironman races, and the training for those, I've done a great job of listening to what my body was telling me. I haven't ever had a bike power meter, and when my Timex HR/GPS distance meter watch ran out of battery in 2008 or 2009, I haven't tracked hr or distance. Considering my low-tech approach to training and racing (for most of my time running marathons from 2001-2007 and IM from 2008-10) except for a few years with that HR/GPS, I trained only with a watch on land. I never took my hr in the water, and never took my hr on land except for when I had that special watch.

In short, besides a few minor technique things in the water, I mostly gauge myself, and it's worked pretty well.

All righty then, you are getting some feedback. I will say that when I swim I'm usually thinking about keeping my elbow high in the catch and streamline. I work on the 2 beat kick at the same time, alternating left kick with right pull and vice versa.

And this is one of the reasons I like to pull with paddles a lot, I don't have to think about high elbow, it is forced into the stroke for me. It also keeps my entry hand high on the surface so I won't tend to start my pull too deep, which happens from time to time when I'm not thinking about it.

I kick with a board a lot (about 25% of workout usually) as this is a real core workout for me and my HR is just as high as swimming fast too. And I just feel better in the water when my kick is going good, and I really feel that transfers to running and riding too, and not just for recovery. And lastly, when you have a strong kick, you will be able to go a lot faster in those tiny little sprints that swimmers call races.

Working on strokes I think a lot about form, especially in breast stroke. That one stroke has changed so much from when I used to swim it in the early 70's, I just have a lot of deprograming to do. Mostly done now, so really working on that pullout with dolphin kick, that gets you more than half the lap when you figure in two turns, so kind of important.

Butterfly is pretty set, although I have started to try and breath every stroke once in awhile. It was always every other in the old days, think Phelps has smashed that old standard and like free, air is king in swimming. Backstroke is mostly getting that push off right and popping up with momentum, not the stall I usually do because I went too deep or shallow. Then it is working on the elbow pull, something I never even though of when swimming in the old days, keeping the hull as small as possible.

So there you go, but keep in mind that it is very difficult to work on more than one thing at a time, as soon as you focus on something else you lose that other thing you were doing. So get to the point where it is almost automatic on one thing, then move over to the next low hanging fruit..

Close, but not quite.

It's streamlining, timing, and forearm angle before I try and pull my upper arm back.


If I want want to get specific, streamlining is a few things, ( head position, momentarily locking the elbow on the reach, and alignment from shoulder to toe. I have a few cues that I use, eg what the water should feel like on the top of my head and on my back.

Timing is really a pace / effort thing, but really I'm playing around with the timing as it affects streamlining.

On the pull I have a couple of bad habits, especially my left arm, so I'm usually conscious of those things, but still trying to swim fast at the same time.

Funny enough, on back and breast it's the same things, but not on fly. Fly is mostly about getting into the rhythm and staying low. breathing frequency (montys protestations notwithstanding) is secondary to rhythm.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Thanks for the cue to pull with my lats. I do that in the weight room with lat pulldowns but constantly forget to do that in the pool....I'm always focusing on hand and forearm position when I should probably be more focusing on lats and upper arm and the rest will follow better!

For today's breast stroke drills, I tried to do 1 stroke with 2 breaststroke kicks followed by the next pull with 2 dolphin kicks. What this did was forced the breast kicks to get a bit tighter to keep similar timing and body position with the upper body and kept doing some 50's like this. From there went to single breast kick with a shorter pull to synchronize with less leg action. Does that sound right?

In the main set category, it as 3x200 IM as 50 fly-25 back-25 breast-100 free, followed by 8x50m as 25m underwater dolphin sprint with fins with 25m free recovery. Then this was followed by 1000m continuous as (25m fly sprint-25m easy fly-25m free sprint-25m free recovery) x 10. On the free legs, I was trying to time my breathing so it happens when I can see my recovery arm coming back. I think I am breathing too early and it is messing my streamline with my other arm and I am lifting my body with my right pulling arm to breath on the right rather than breath on the right when the right are is recovering:

Doesn't sound right to me. typically when you do a 2 kick / 1 pull breaststroke you want to keep the kicks consistent with how you would normally do them, and keep the pull the same, but you just tack on the extra kick in streamline underwater. It's a drill designed partly to get you kicking in the streamline phase of breaststroke, when resistance is low, rather than during the breath and recovery when resistance is high.

pull in streamline, then kick in streamline.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

OK, so there is no up and down body motion during the second kick....hands, arms, head, core, butt all locked into a straight torpedo, and just a hard breast second kick. So what you are saying is pull with streamlined lower body, kick with streamlined upper body?

Pretty much that.

Bear in mind that I'm not a particularly good breaststroker, my kick is horrible.

I'm faster doing pull than swim.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

We had another messy IM set the other day, and in fact, truth be told, I got out bc it was so messy no one could follow it.
Our leader usually puts up great sets. But this last one was a doozy.

Before that we did sets of 4 x 125s (4 of them)
First set: fly on the last 25, second set back, third brst and the last two were tempo free focusing on bc on the last 25 (breathing every 5th stroke)
Fly focus was to have two good harmonics off the wall (i usually skip these bc i suck at them) and then keeping the feet quiet as my hips were the primary moving part in the fly. --- tempo felt quick and light despite the traffic of 4 others in the lane.
Back, I focused on where I carried my weight. Back is always a struggle for me. So i leaned heavily on the vertebrea directly behind my sternum and keeping my chin slighly closer to the bottom of the pool than my forehead (helps to get hips up)
Breast, I focused on hip connecting to the turn of my hands out front. When I press DOWN (not back) i want my hips to slide toward that point. Vs lifting the head and having the hips sink. It will help move you forward.
The free portion was all locking down my scapulas during my streamline and trying to keep it that way. Noticing pace, effort rhythm. The breathcontrol is just easy. Focusing on the exhale. But the locked down scapulas take my stroke count from 11 to 13/14 strokes per length (anecdotal) but interesting bc my pace quickens and my effort goes down.

Hope that is the feedback you are looking for...?

With a 17k week and still ticking off this stupid 100/100 run challenge... im kinda tired for Jan/Fab...:)

DaveD

I will come back to these 1 by 1 as I can't focus on more than one item per stroke.

So let's start with backstroke with the part in bold. Your chin/back of the neck is lower in the water than forehead, but I assume you're still looking mainly up and not towards your feet/back of the pool?

I am going to work on what Jason said for breast stroke.....then I'll come back a few days later on the scapula lockin for free....not getting what that needs to feel like.

No complaining allow about swimming a lot and 100/100 run volume getting in the way....this is what Thomas Hellriegel told me to do when I met him at the 1995 World Military Games Triathlon. At the time, he has a relatively unknown German soldier, who won the olympic tri, beat Olivier Marceau, Dmitri Gaag and Norman Stadler (alll of whom went on to be either ITU champions or Kona champs). I asked Thomas what his winter training in German looked like and he answered something like 30+K per week of swimming and 100K+ of running and a few easy spins, with the plan of getting over to Lanzarote a few times per winter for 1000K bike weeks. But basically one of the original Kona uberbikers was not biking at all during the German winter....just lots of swim and run. I met Thomas 5 weeks before he basically destroyed the Kona 1995 field on the bike and left T2 13 minutes ahead of Mark Allen!

Thanks guys

Great story about "hell on wheels"! I love hearing that stuff.

To answer your head position on backstroke (my worst stroke!) take it w a grain of salt. ha
So, yes still generally looking up. But nature forces us to push our chins forward while we are on our backs. So I was just working on trying not to allow my chin to slide up (keeping that "neutral head position"), and then my hips sink. So managing my weight and head position was my focus while on my back.

And you are right, maybe I shouldnt complain about this 100/100 thing.. sorry, Ill HTFU.

hahaha

daved

Had a (short course yards) meet yesterday, swam the 100 free, 50 free, and 50 fly. From October through mid-January, my training focus was primarily aimed at 1000/1650 free, with a secondary focus on 200 fly, and just a bit of sprint work to keep from completely losing the feel for the water at higher stroke rates. I set a personal best in the 1650 at a meet a couple weeks ago, but had a poor 100 later in the meet as I was, understanbly, pretty knackered from racing the mile. My primary objective for the meet yesterday was to secure a National Qualifying Time of 57.10 or better in the 100 free. I hadn't been that quick since April of 2016. In the meet two weeks ago, I went 58.77.

The week before last, I did the full-boat 100 free USPRT set three different times. That would be 25's on a 0:30 interval at 100 race pace; rest an interval if you miss the target pace. Set is over when you miss three times total, miss two in a row, or get to 30 reps. My three attempts went like this:

1/23
25's on :30, target < :14.25
1st fail @ 17
2nd fail @ 21
set complete (30 reps)


1/25
25's on :30, target < :14.15
1st fail @ 12
2nd fail @ 20
set complete (30)


1/27
25's on :30, target <:14.10
1st fail @ 13
2nd fai @ 22
set failed @ 28



Before I took up triathlon and started focusing more on longer distance swim events, this used to be a staple set in my regimen. I haven't done it "by the book" (i.e. that short an interval, all the way to 3 failures or 30 reps) in about a year. Good God, I'd forgotten how much that set hurts! When I was primarily sprint/middle distance training, I was intimidated by the thought of training for the distance (800m+) events. Boy, did I have it backwards. This USRPT sprint set is far worse than any USRPT-style distance set I do.


Last week I worked a little on fly, did some long rest 25's (1:30 interval) to work on 50 free pace, and tried to consolidate the :14.10 100 pace without taxing myself as much by doing fewer reps (+/- 16) at longer rest (:40 interval). Swam fairly easy Thursday and Friday, rested Saturday.




Cutting to the chase, I went 56.43 in the 100 free, only .01 off my best SCY time. I'd call that very good correlation with the practice pace! (14.10 x 4 = 56.4). Truthfully, I should have gone in the 56.2's but I stuffed the turn at the 50y mark.


My heart rate was very slow to come down after that race. I'd been fighting the beginnings of a cold since the middle of the week, and that seemed to affect my recovery. After going out 27.27 in the 100, including the stuffed turn, I only went 26.27 in the 50 free an hour later. I was a little disappointed, as I'd gone 26.33 just ninety minutes after that 1650 two weeks ago.


My 50 fly of 29.18 was similarly mediocre, although the turn around from the 50 free was a little less than 20 minutes.


100 free NQT secured, It's time to circle back to working on the 1650. Last time, I missed an NQT in that event by ~ 20 seconds. I have another chance in 4 weeks. I hope to put that to bed so I can bring the 200 fly work to the front burner before Spring Nationals.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

I had kind of a lazy morning swim after yesterday's 12 mile/3000 feet of climbing trail run (hike)
500s
250 fly kwf
250 pull
250 back kwf
250 pull
250 br kick
250 pull
250 fr kwf
250 pull

2500 yards

---

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

today 5 mi run, 925 yd swim, 3.1 mi run

still working on pulling w/ lats and fixing my right armstroke (Stronger pull, faster recovery)

500 w/u
50 kick
3 x 100 on 1:30
50 back
25 kick

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Some fast 50s this am. Finally a great set to let er rip on:

10 x through
2 x 50 on :45scy #1 was to be "pretty" and #2 "fast"
1 x 50 on 1:00 recovery

Goal was by rounds 1-3 to do 35s on "pretty" and 30s on "fast"
actuals 32s and 29s ** effort on 29s was exponentially more ugh

round 4-6 to do 33s on pretty and 29s on fast
actuals 31s and 28s ** still killing myself to go 28

round 7-9 to do 32s and 28s
actuals 30s and 28s ** the "pretty" ones were so easy that i was frustrated by the effort on the "hard ones" for the delta in time i was getting

round #10 goal 30 and 27
Actual 29 and 26 but that last one was all i had.

*Feedback: today was all about TENSION in my body. The "pretty" ones where I took the focus off the clock and locked down my scapulas and quality streamlines/breakouts felt amazingly easy. The tension when I would try to step on the gas would skyrocket and the ROI on energy output was not effective for long term swimming.
Paying attention to the TENSION or TONE in your body/energy output and movement can really help you to maximize your efficiency.
DaveD

well done.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Starting to ramp up average swim pace times;

5x100s@1;40(1;25 to 1;23)
8x150p@2;15(1;59 to 1;52)
3x100 breast@2;00(1;35/34/31)
2x150p@2;15(2;02/59)
2300SCY

3.3 mi easy run 30 min
925 yd swim

4 x 100 on 1:30 w/u
50 kick
3 x [100 fast + 50 kick] 1:13, 1:12, 1:13
25 c/d

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

5.6 mi run, 525 yd swim, 3.1 mi run

swim 150 yds, fixed goggles, swam 350 yds, kicked 25 yds

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Congratulations on the NQT !

so now we know your age group.. ha.

went poking around, the USMS qualifiers are much faster than the Fina World AG qualifiers were last year.. seems odd.
The FINA times are for LCM but even after converting are much slower. In 55+ AG, 50 SCY is 27.3 for USMS and FINA is 33.66 for LCM which converts to 29.2 SCY. I can swim a 50 in 29 with a push..

My son the sprinter tried a 500 at last weekend's meet, 5:47 for stone last. I tried a 500 thinking I could get 6:45 or so, wound up 7:11 oh dear.

The entry criteria are different.

For USMS Nationals you can swim up to 3 individual events, other than the 1650, without an NQT. You need an NQT to swim the 1650, and/or for any individual events beyond 3 up to the entry limit which is usually 6.

For FINA Worlds, you're supposed to have a qualifying time for any event you enter. If your finish time is higher than the qualifying time, you will be listed as "N/T" (No Time) in the results.

FWIW, If you do the conversions, you'll probably find the LCM USMS Summer Nationals NQT's are typically a fair bit "softer" than the Spring Nationals NQT's for the equivalent SCY events.

---

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

4.6 mi run
.5 mi w/u, 3 mi progressive 6.8, 6.9, 7.0 mph, some walking + .1 mi easy, 1 mi free speed


625 yd swim... notes for Dev: maintaining feel for the water. 600 swim (8:20), 25 yd kick

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

complicated.. thanks..

Hey Dev, where you been, were you having some sort of surgery this week, how did it go?

Back up to the mountains and a smooth pool, getting that IM ready for you too Dev;

5x100s@1;40(1;24 to 1;18) 2x100IM kick@2;05(1;53/51)
4x200p@3;15/100IM@2;00(2;38/38/37/37//1;22/21/22/21). 3x100IM kick@2;05(1;57/56/55)
300 steady pull (4;04)
2500SCY

I did a 300 warm-up and then I think 8 x 25 choice on 3:00 - 5:00 talking rest with an old friend and adviser.

500...it's a workout!

6.6 mi run, 425 yd swim to maintain feel of the water, 3.1 mi run

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Hey Monty, they did nothing on my foot last week. I am going in for the back MRI on Sunday, shot in the disc in 12 days and then Surgeon consult some time after (or maybe before) in our communist system

Mainly I have been busy getting my startup going (http://www.bluwave-ai.com) which has been a full throttle ride, but quite rewarding (any VC's on this thread, feel free to join our investor syndicate :-), but I have been swimming every day other than Wed when I was in a hotel and did weights only as the pool was 10m long and I just did not feel like a zillion turns.

I noticed that because of my disc injury I have not been using my core in a fish/dolphin mode, in that right around where the injury was/is, the spine is like rigid plank (imagine a bike chain with kinked links that is not wanting to bend properly around the cogs). So when I get to that "link" in my spine, I have been stiff and not rigid. The outome is that from my sternum to my hip, the spine is like a rigid rod, rather than supple and "creating a wave" when under water or "riding the wave" when under water. There is not a ton of energy being transmitted to the hip and legs from here and I am just generating energy hip downwards.

The thing is that I am not in pain in this part of my spine. I have been bracing my entire core like a rod because there "used to be pain" through there. There is none currently, but I did not realize I had been bracing with this type of compensation rather than using my body as a whip in fly, dolphin kick, and to some extent in freestyle.

I doubt a coach on dryland would be able to eyeball and spot this. Maybe they could. They would likely see that something is wrong and to some extent, the timing is imperfect (not off, just imperfect).

I discovered this during an underwater 25m sprint set with fins on.

Here is the problem. When I am on dry land, walking I am constantly bracing this part of my body, so it never really gets relaxed. This compensation from dryland is carrying into the pool, and I did not know it. Now I do.

So last two swims, I have been really trying to relax the area and let my entire core work like a whip and it's been really positive. On the underwater dolphin 25m where normally I was kicking 23-25 times, per length, now I am down to more like 20 since I am using a "longer whip". Fly feels easier as I am generating more force per body undulation/kick. But the best part is when I swim 2 beat free (half body fly in some ways). Less of that spasm/dragchute with my left side as the entire body stays more aligned like a normal person....YAY.

So the other day this was my main set:

10x150 as 25 fly-25 breast-25 back-75 free. The goal here was to empty the tank by the 75th m and then recover on the first free leg and push hard for the final 50m. I was trying to increase the cadence on the breast and a harder tighter pull

100m kick, then

2x400m IM as Twice (50 fly-25 back-25 breast - 100 free) with no rest between the 200's and make the second 50m fly really hard so I am jello going into the second group of back and breast.

In terms of your IM kick is there a flutter board involved (I assume so) in which case, where does it go for the back kick? Just above your head?

I am also thinking that I need to start doing some sets that are 10x50 with half of those back and half of those breast. Just focus on my 50m in each of those "sports" (to me they just feel like a completely different sport LOL!!!!....kind of like the diff between sprinting and race walking given my relative race walking skill at these two). If I could get from 7m under water dolphin and croaking from that last year to sprinting 25m underwater with or without fins, then these other legs of IM should be possible to learn with enough persistence (and I have no shortage of persistence, related to my above post about investors, one of the VC's said that his money was down to going into my company and another one, and multiple times, they almost chose the other, but can't make the decision because I'm too persistent LOL).

Dev

Good luck with all your upcoming body work. I saw this in your last workout;

10x150 as 25 fly-25 breast-25 back-75 free.

Is there a reason you do breast before back? Seem like we have an order cemented in the IM, so practicing the actual transitions might be more effective.


And when I do most of my IM kick it is with a board, but most of the time I dont do back flutter, just front. But when I do I just put the board behind my head with arms outstretched. I should do more back kick and underwater dolphin, soon...

Sorry, I swim in the correct order....I typed in the wrong IM order!!!!

I find it difficult to kick on back with board above my head. I suppose if you just do 50s oof IM kick you can just ditch the board for the back kick leg.

Dan and I did the hour drive to the low pool, man what a difference a few thousand feet make. Wish I felt better to take advantage, but got in a pretty good set anyway;

5x100s@1;40 (1;23 to 1;16). 3x100IM kick@2;00(1;53/51/50)
2x500p/100IM@7;00/2;00(6;33/1;20--/6;32/1;22)
5x100IM kick@2;05(1;57 to 1;49)
100SD
2600SCY

Pre Swim
30 minute upper body workout
60 minute Spin focused on ftp

Swim
1x2200 yards (calf muscle then cramped beyond relief and recovery... 1st time that ever happened.)
1x300 Pull Buoy
1x800 Freestyle, kicking with just one leg.

Longest total yards in a pool.

I don't use the board on backstroke kick so I usually do 50s but I'm not afraid to kick a 25 breast w/o a board if I need to get to the other end. On the "sport" of breaststroke I wish you luck trying to improve....I sometime feel like I can swim it decently but the clock always reminds me that I suck at it.

yesterday 13 mi bike

today 8.6 mi run, 1675 yd swim
run: 1 mi w/u, 2 mi (7.0, 7.1 mph), walking + a few tenths easy, 2.1 mi (7.1, 7.2 mph), walking + a few tenths easy, 2.1 mi (7.3 mph)


swim:


600 w/u
50 kick
100 swim
50 kick
200 swim
50 kick
100 swim
50 kick
goofed off swimming breaststroke and sidestroke for a bit
100 free
50 kick c/d

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

OK, I want to thank you for saying you were focusing on pulling with lats. My lats are relatively huge for my puny body so your reminder was awesome...all that mass of muscle is happy that you reminded them to wake up and my arms are not trashed at all now!!!

OK today in the feats of strength category, 1:40 hrs 5200m swim

main set

1. 1500m continuous as 50 fly hard-25 free easy-50 free hard-25 free recovery - repeat these 150's 10 times
2. 1500m as 10x150 IM 25 fly hard-25 back hard-25 breast easy focus on glide-50 free hard-25 free recovery, 10 breaths rest and repeat

Sorry, I did not time anything. Set 1 was essentially the 1000m of 50/50 fly free with recovery 25's built in (but basically 10x50 fly + 10x50 free). Set 2, obviously there to try to get down to 3:40 in my Feb attempt at 200 IM for the ST virtual swim meet (Monty, what other events are on deck this month?)

Today's technical focus were:

1. deep water catch with back stroke
2. keeping my lumbar spine relaxed and using it as a whip in fly, free and breast

My swim workout is pretty basic:

Monday - 400m (Bike Workout Prior)
Tuesday - 800m (Run Workout Prior)
Wednesday - 1 hour swim as much distance as doable
Thursday - 400m (Bike and Run Prior)
Friday - 1 hour swim as much distance as doable

On short days I focus on form and will use trainers, like paddles and fins. I would love these to be longer distances but get limited by work starting so have to keep it capped.

---

My personal training progress countdown to Ironman:
Triathlon Training

7 x 200 @ 2:45
6 x 150 @ 2:15, 50 kick, 100 swim
2 x 600 @ 9:00 snorkel
100 kick
10 x 150 @ 1:55; 2 paddles and buoy, 2 paddles, 2 p & b, 2 p, 2 swim
8 x 75 @ :05 rest, 25 kick 50 swim mix free and back
50 easy

5750 yards

5k this am (yards.. always yards.. trust me, I will let you know when i get to do meters!!)

two sets to focus on here the first part and last part of the "main set"
Set first.
Feedback second.
Part I
12 x 100 all on 1:30
Goal was to hold 125, 120, 115, 110 then repeat that x 3

then some stuff in the middle blah blah ...then

Part II
8 x 100 all on 1:30
goal was to hold 1:10, 115, 120, 125

Small group at the pool today, so I decided to count strokes (something I don't normally do nor do I advertise this as a form of effective training. DPS is paradigm that would benefit everyone if it were to be abolished, except of course the PTs who love to rehab shoulders) but nevertheless, I counted and checked HR. It has been a long time since I "focused" on that (strokes/length as a primary mover) and after today I remember why.

First round I basically hit the times no problem. Within a second on all of them.
122time 11/12 strokes --HR (not enough time to get it)
118time 12 strokes 21hr (10sec)
114time 12/13 strokes 21hr
109time 13/14 strokes 20hr
Three rounds of this and HR was lower on the "fast" one than all others.


Second round was even more dramatic from a numbers standpoint and we reversed the "effort" having the faster one first.
the 8 x 100 looked like this:
106 time 14strokes per length 19hr (10sec)
113 time 11 strokes per length 21hr
119 time 10 strokes per length 22hr
124 time 8 or 9 strokes per length --hr (not enough time to get it)
The second time through that set my HR was admittedly higher on the faster 100 bc of short rest after.
107 time 14 strokes 21Hr
114 time 11strokes 22hr
118time 9-10strokes 22hr
125time 8 strokes 23hr

--- distance per stroke, IE taking fewer strokes to move down the pool is not a standalone measure of swimming efficiency or improvement. Lengthening out my underwaters, extending my shoulders/elbows beyond full extension, accelerating and decelerating are an ineffective , exhausting and at their worst can cause injury (didn't I just read another thread on this dev, one that you responded to?)
Knowing that I classify as a "sinker" (having a low center of mass and high density (with a fairly dramatic "hang angle" from the surface)) these numbers reaffirm that if I don't swim and train and work in a way that reinforces faster tempos/rhythms (and bc of this higher stroke counts than i am clearly capable of swimming) that swimming is very hard for me.

I can do 8 strokes per length and hold 100s on 1:30 all day holding 116 range. or until my shoulders give out.
Or
I can do 14 to 15 strokes per length on 100s and hold 1:06s range with a lower HR. and with no shoulder pain whatsoever.

All the best,
DaveD

Hmm, interesting.

Just spitballing here, but I wonder if one of the reasons for the higher HR on low strokes per length is reduced O2 availability?

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I had exactly 23 minutes to swim, so got my best bang for the buck;

3x500p@7;00(6;47/6;39/6;29) 100 IM kick(1;50)

1600SCY

Hey Jason,

absolutely! 100% right

But that is what folks do to "cheat" their way to lower stroke counts.
Combined with holding my breath longer while lengthening my streamline (as you said) , then add to that, this awful kicking of mine while im holding that breath off the walls and then of course few opportunities to breathe WHILE i am swimming, AND the effort required to "speed back up" after my long streamlines and time in between each impulse (or arm swing) ... that was exhausting!
Yet we read forum after forum to play swim golf or get your stroke count down and you'll be more efficient and of course DPS DPS DPS!!! Such a farce in my opinion.
The biggest bang for your buck in terms of feedback loops for swimmers to look for are Rhythm, Symmetry and Waste (ease of movement/effort)
FWIW.

daved

Dealing with a little hip stress. I can't flip turn - huge pain. But after hobbling a mile or so when running, everything loosens up and feels fine, more or less - I did a 30k (actually 19.1 mile) trail race, Saturday, with nearly 2500 feet of climbing and did ok, 12 minute something pace and second in my AG - 4 hours and small change. I swam Sunday at Shaw's Cove to Main Beach buoy, about 3100 yards, and paced this 17 yo kid back to Shaw's. Gave it the max effort and he hung with me. He's training for a 5 mile swim at Tempe Town Lake (ewww). Today, I swam 2500 yards, but still couldn't flip turn. 300s/200p; 1000 IM kick w/fins; 2x[4x25 progressive sprints :18 down to :16 - just can't break 16 seconds. and the cool down. Then ran at lunch 4.8 mile/300 feet climbing (flat more-or-less). 8:01 pace. That felt really good, shockingly. The best part was no branches scraping me, or having to duck under and no rocks to trip on!

Two weekends from now, the final run in the Winter Trail Race Series - a full marathon trail run from Blue Jay Campground to Lazy W ranch and back - over 5ooo feet of climbing. I must be nuts!

---

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

...hand on, this was the perfect time to do your 1000m of 50/50 fly free......7 minute warmup and then 16 min of riding the wave like a dolphin!!!!!

Today's main set was 5x200m as 100m fly-100free....fly was 100m hard fly, 25m recovery free, 50m hard free, 25 cruise. Lots of rest in between chatting with some folks at the pool so I can't say if the rest was 10 seconds of 2 minutes....it just depended!!!!

By the way on yesterday's set, I THINK I finally got the full "dive in" timing nailed on the fly entry (vs belly flop when getting tired):



Basically it is like doing this the other way, with the shins "locked in" to the water for stability for the core:



My core was totally cooked after that set. Actually my arms and lats were not too bad!

HS, sounds like an odd hip injury. I hope it clears up.

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

yesterday 6 mi easy run, 525 yd swim, 6 mi bike
today 7.8 mi run w/ 2.1 mi @ 8:13 pace, 425 yd swim

just feel of water :-)

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

usually don't post but thought I'd throw this one up.
300 sw/200 p/6*100 kk on 2 (25 fast/75 build, 50 ez/50 fast, 100 fast), 100 ez
400 on 6 steady (4.32)
100 fast on 1.45 (59)
300 on 4.45 steady (3.20)
100 fast on 1.45 (59)
200 on 3 steady (2.15)
100 fast on 1.45 (59)
100 steady on 1.30 (1.07)
100 fast on 1.45 (58)
50 ez
300 steady on 3.45 (3.23)
50 fast on 1 (26.5)
200 steady on 3 (2.15)
50 fast on 1 (27)
100 steady on 1.30 (1.07)
50 fast on 1 (27)
50 ez
6*100 on 1.20 (fins/paddles - focus on catch - 1.05s)

4200 yards on 75 min
have been really focused on releasing my traps and improving my T-spine mobility with rolling/stretching, and feel this has made a huge difference in dropping my shoulders which seem to be chronically tight.

One of the coaches said I should focus more on entry and pulling straight back as opposed to consciously focusing on internally rotating shoulder/keeping my elbow super high for my catch which I think has helped, notice I'm activating my lats more, and coupling my shoulders better which has really helped the power. Was taking steady 10 ish strokes/length for the steady swimming and given I've swum 5 days in a row, was pleased with my speed for the 100s.

When you say "dropping your shoulders" do you mean the leading shoulder is driving down and below your head/chin....like this:



If so I was experimenting with this after someone told my to drive my right shoulder blade down on backtroke entry for a deep water catch so that my left one comes up and puts me in both a better catch position and streamline position. I figure if the physics worked for backstroke, then the same should apply from free and get me swimming less like a barge and closer to torpedo body shape

its tough to explain, as I always have been told press the scapula down after I enter and keep elbow high, but to do that you need good shoulder mobility for the internal rotation of the humerus. I have reasonable mobility (far more then most AOS) but I was developing significant impingement syndrome despite an excellent physio/strengthening program for my shoulder. I also think I wasn't really able to turn on my lats at all doing this, and as such had a lot of the power coming from the shoulder muscles which exacerbates and lead to significant scapular dykenesis.

The way it was described to me was enter straight in, and immediately think of lat activation, not scapula activation, this (for me) pulls the shoulder down and allows a way stronger pull through. The dryland drill i'm working on is "punching" into a inflated ball that I'm holding onto a wall, with my other hand on my lat so I feel the activation as I press into the ball which is the same motion as entry into the water.

I don't think my elbow is as high, but its certainly not dropping. I'm also working on keeping my shoulders in a straight line, so all the energy is coupled (per gary hall sr's terminology) and I'm almost vaulting over my pulling hand because its anchoring better.

Hadn't done a Critical Swim Speed (CSS) test since April. Been doing a lot of distance-focused work since October, so I thought I'd do one today to see where I stood. Here was my workout.




200 pull, 200 kick
8x25 drill
4x50, build


CSS test
400y TT (4:48)
8 min rest (including 200y active recovery)
200y TT (2:18)


500 EZ choice


TOTAL 2100 yards, 45 mins.




CSS Test suggests my mile pace should be 1:15/100y. Damn if that isn't exactly the target pace I've been working on for the past several months.




Best CSS test I ever did was 4:47/2:17 three years ago, when I was doing a ton of specific race-pace training for the 400m/500y and 200 free. Feels good to be back at that level of swim-specific fitness. I'm pretty sure I'm actually a better miler now than then. Can't say for sure, since I didn't race it back then.

---

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

OK, I can visualize driving scapula down and holding elbow high. I can work on that aspect!

Today main set.....15x200 IM as 50 fly-25 back - 25 breast -100 free. Then 400 as 50-50 fly free. Main focus was to drive down my leading shoulder so that the other one was up and high. Other than that, trying to use the core as a whip for my legs on fly and free.

I'm training for IM NZ but am having some left shoulder issues in longer, more endurancey sets.

I swam at lunch today so didn't have so much time to train as had client at 2pm.

Did

400 wup
100 kick
3x100 im on 2.00 easy
20x50 max on 60
100 easy
10x25 max on 30
100 wdown

When I say max i mean max for the number of reps, not for a single 50 or 25. so kinda a usrpt thing.

Shoulder felt fine afterwards and during.

Good luck with IM NZ!

On today's swim I tried to push the scapula of my leading shoulder down. My hips just automatically followed with a bit smoother rotation. I think part of my free limitation goes back to crash and neck injury in 2011 when I could barely turn my neck to look at either shoulder. There is no neck pain anymore and I have near full neck mobility, but I have been swimming with flat shoulders "bracing" for neck pain that no longer exists! So hopefully I can get some better streamline and rotation going and actually I have less leg spasm with my left leg that turns into drag chute each time I breath left when I push down hard with my right scapula (shoulder driven rotation vs hip I guess....).

Today's workout was 60 min XC ski followed immediately by 60 min in the pool, with 5 min drive from ski trails to pool. Let's just say, I had a bit less ooomph with my dolphin kick (core and legs) and with my triceps. Decided not to time anything and just focus on the scapula thing!

The good part of running your company is you get to train whenever you want. The bad part is you work every other moment of the day (OK OK....when I'm not on ST).

I was only able to sneak away and have 26 minutes today, so another short blaster;

7x100@1;40(1;24 to 1;20) 3x100IM kick@2;00(1;53's)
500p@6;45(6;19) 100IM kick--1;53
1600SCY

Dev,

Id like to add that i would recommend not doing any internal rotation with the arms. That just jams the shoulder.. and is the cause of a lot of "swimmers shoulder" syndrome.

Generally speaking the hands should "gently" face each other (palms) so it is actually a slight EXternal rotation to keep the shoulder free to move.
By keeping that general position it becomes much easier to keep that scapula depresed/engaged throughout the freestyle.

daved

Hey I did not get the "palms gently face each other" Can you show a picture from google that explains this?

no pic (yet) sorry

but put your arms out like youre driving your car and you have your hands at the 10 and 2 positions on the steering wheel. .. (Like the face of a clock) Your thumbs slightly up and palms (gently) facing each other. I guess "aggressively" facing each other would be in a "pre-clapping" position.

and I did just watch the GTN show and they have a swimming clip they show during every episode in which someone is swimming toward the camera. And you can clearly see the arm come in, and then the internal rotation as the thumb goes toward the bottom of the pool. In my opinion, that is what not to do, as you have to then reverse that to get your skeleton aligned to set your anchor.

does that help?
Ill try to dig up a pic or two.
daved

yesterday 8.6 mi run w/ 4 mi @ 8:34 pace; 6 mi bike
today 4.5 mi run really easy, 375 yd swim because I like the routine.

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Hip slowly getting better, but still avoiding flipturns (I try one and decide.)
This AM:
5x100@1:30 1:20~1:15 (on open turns)
10x50k FL/FR/BK/BR
500p
5x100kwf FL/FR/BK/FL/FR
5x[4x25@:30 progressive] hit :15 3 times
100 s/k cool


2600 sc yardages

---

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

Awesome, thanks. That covers it! I will try!

Monty in the feats of strengths category (at least for me), I did

4x200 IM as 50 fly steady 25- back hard-25 breast hard-100 free with second half hard

then

2x400 IM.....standard IM.

First time in my life I did a set of 4x200IM (I have actually done a full 400 IM only twice in my life, so i just doubled my lifetime quota). As much as my back and breast stuck, I really enjoyed it. I did not time it, but was surprised to see that I got the two with a break for chatting with the other guy in my lane done in under 17 minutes, which I was a bit shocked by given that my 200 IM last month was only 3:53 if I recall correctly.

I will give both the 200 IM and a 400 IM a shot next week. I have a cortisone injection on the 22nd of Feb, so I don't think I should do anything hard until the 27th or 28th after that, so probably best to post my ST swim meet times before the injection on the 22nd.

In any case all this to say, the only way I will not suck and back and breast is to do more....I am doing more and starting to have less suck!

Dev

Today's swim

LCM:
800 choice
30x50 as:
- 6x50 @ 1
- 6x50 @ 55s
- 6x50 @ 50s
- 4x50 @ 1
- 4x50 @ 55s
- 4x50 @ 50s
100 easy
10x100 pull paddles @ 1.45
100 easy
--3500

Hey Monty, I am feeling inspired....so who is in for the 4x400m IM set this week. One mile worth of IM. Which one of you jokers will pull off that set in under 30 minutes including rest?

Hey Monty....so it's almost happening. I think sub 3:40 200m IM will go down this month.

So in the spirit of improving what you suck at by just doing more of what you suck at until you gradually suck less, today's main set was 2000m of IM broken down as:

12x100m IM
2x200m IM
1x400m IM

The first 12 was on 2 minutes, coming in around 1:52 to 1:55. Every 4th I took an extra 15 seconds of rest. Then I did the 2x200m IM, The first was steady. Then took a minute of rest and decided to time the second one hard.

Was surprised to see 3:42. I barely expected to see 3:50, so I was looking for the clock to see where the second hand was...it may have been sub 3:40, but the first number I saw was 3:42. I took off ~ 10 seconds since January, almost all on the breast and back. I THINK I can take out 3:30 by the end of the year as I am grabbing the time savings on the "low hanging fruit".

After this the 400m IM was done as 50m hard/50m easy in each event!

I have 5 more swims to take out 3:40 before I have to take a bunch of days off after I get my cortisone injection on Feb 22, so I will do one of these more rested rather than timed on my 1600th meter of IM on a given day (kind of cool, that was like the finishing sprint 200m with Bannister and Landy doing the miracle mile....as you can see I am still a runner at heart using run analogies in the fish thread....please don't ban me).

Dev

Thanks for the 10/2 O'Clock position cue for the hands. Definitely got some more solid pull on my free and fly today.

Nice job on the IM set there Dev. I went to the low pool yesterday with dan and I was actually going to try and do a 400IM(haven't even done a 200 unbroken yet) and I got saved by a kids swim meet. So did an extra run instead and spent 3 1/2 hours on the fwy instead of 1;50 because of the detour.

But last night had a poker game and an old friend(58 years 0ld) came down to play and stay over. He hasn't been swimming much at all for quite sometime, but I talked him into going to our club pool for a swim this morning. After a warm up set he says lets do 8x150 on the 2;20. I was surprised but he used to be fast and I said what the hell;

5x100s@1;40(1;24 to 1;21)
8x150p@2;20(minute break@#4) 1;58/56/55/53---2;04/1;55/1;48/1;43
4x50@1;00 fly/free/breast/free(32/40--41/40)
2000SCY

So by far my best 150 of the year to do a 1;43, he was right there with me on most, which is amazing for not having swam hardly at all the past year, and 58!!

My best 50 fly (32 push off) and best 50 breast(41) too. He inspired me to up my heart rate. So no 400 IM this week, cannot do it in this pool as back stroke is all over the place, and it is just a wave pool. I want conditions to be perfect before I try and slog out a 100 fly and then have to do 300 more!!

Friday 7 mi easy run, 10 mi bike
Saturday off
today 9 mi run w/ intervals at half marathon pace, 1525 yd swim (main set 10 x 100 on 1:30)

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Wow the 32 seconds for fly and 41 for breast is awesome. Congrats. I am encouraged that there is a lot of low hanging fruit to get my 50m breast stroke down. I can barely break 60 seconds (scm). I THINK with practice, I can get this sub 55 and maybe close to 50. It just needs practice. I think I need to work on my breast kick with flutter board.

Today's workout as a 2 hrs 20K classic ski with almost 1000 ft of vertical. In the evening was a 1:25 4000m swim. after the warmup, it was just a bunch of easy 200 IM's as 50 fly-25 breast-25 back-100 free. I ended the workout with 1x400IM easy just trying to work the glide phase and catch. I will time both the 400IM and 200 IM this week.

Monday
7 mi mostly easy run, 2.65 mi @ 8:34 pace (just under half marathon pace)
925 yd swim (900 straight to stretch out, 25 kick)
lifted weights for hips/glutes, did some back extensions

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Had an awesome morning Ocean Swim! Despite a small craft warning with 20-30 mph winds and overhead high surf, 7 of us braved going out there in the 58 degree washing machine. We elected to stay together and swim bouy laps in the cove just so it would be easy (relatively) to get back to shore — not possible along the route to Seal Rock. Pretty crazy when you swim 6 feet from another and at moments, you’re 6 feet above them and a second later they’re above you! Around 3000 yards. We’re going out again this afternoon (because the wind has picked up!)

---

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

SCM lane swim.. after multiple days of feeling like crap in the water finally had a solid day.. (last wen was 4k meh, thur - off, fri - 40 min splash, sat - 4k nothing crazy, sat - 4.5k LC,
today.
8*150 on 20 sec (50 kk/dr/sw RIMO), 100 ez
8*50 kick on 65 snorkel no board, 100 ez
100 (10) 100 all out - 1.03/1.07, 200 ez
50 (10) 100 (10) 50 - 30/1.04/33, 200 ez
50(10)50(10)50(10)50 - 2.06 total, 200 ez
8*100 bk on 1.45 (1.33s) worst stroke, blah
16*25 as breakout/to flags/fast/fast on 45 (mix of gear/paddles/fly)
400 p easy
5k in 1.45h or so
first time doing broken 200s this year, so much hurt..

5.5 mi run 48:46
725 yd swim

100, 150, 100, 200, 150 on a 1:30 base
25 kick

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

I'm with you dayvic, feeling blah today but got in anyway and went through the motions;

3x(300/200/100/200IM kick) swim@1;40/paddles@1;30/pull@1;30 bases
(4;28/2;51/1;21--4;03/2;38/1;16--3;54/2;33/1;13) (kicks-3;52/51/54)
2400SCY

When I used to do tris, and guys who started in their 40's used to brag about hitting all time PB's I'd say, "yeah, that's cause you did not start in your 20's....there is a reason why there are no competitive pros in their 40's" (Cam Brown aside).

So here we are, and I am "that guy" who starts late and now can get motivated by hitting all time PB's because he never even did the sport until his 50's.

Soooooo today during my swim I did 8x200IM. First two and the last one were untimed.

The middle 5 sets were alternating 200IM as regular IM on the odds and 50 fly-25-back-25 breast-100 free on the evens on 2 minutes.

I descended the odd ones at 3:52, 3:48 and 3:42. The evens were both around 3:30ish, but I was not paying a ton of attention.

Mainly last month my 200 IM "PB" was 3:52, and this month 3:42 was my "PB" a few days ago, and now I am doing all that during a tough set. I think I can take the 200IM sub 3:40 this month and I think 400IM should easily be possible sub 8 minutes and maybe more like 7:40. I may try both tomorrow a bit more rested after a warmup only and not during a really hard set.

thanks guys for all your inputs and encouragements. I think I am getting back stroke a bit better but my cadence is still bogged down and slow. Breast stroke feels like race walking fast. It's just weird trying to do that stroke fast!

LCM
Warm up 400 free/300 pull/200 kick/100 free

800 buoy and band
8x100@1:25

400 band only
8x50@45 shoot for ~35

800 buoy and paddles
4x200@ 2:50-3:00 depending on how fried I am

200 cool down

Really not looking forward to this

OK, we're down to the final week of the month. Time to enter the ST Fish Swim meet.

Monty, did you and Jason decide on the final events for this month?????

I have today and tomorrow before a cortisone shot to post some times.....then I won't be able to swim (at least swim hard) likely till the 28th, so I need to know the official events and get them done in the next few days!!!!

jeez,

this month went by quickly!
Im not sure I really worked on my IM, but Im in for another 2im. Wont be dressel-like that is for sure.

daved

Monty, did you and Jason decide on the final events for this month????? //

Let's not bite off too much to kick this thing off, dont want to scare anyone out of the pond.. In my mind it would be fine to begin with a 50 fly, 50 back, and either a 100 or 200IM depending on if you do short or long course. We can put those in the line up for this month, but you can attack your times from now on, and we can add a few more next month and thereafter.


What do you think Jason? Do we need a distance meet to go along side??


On another note I just saw a spring pentathlon coming up in less than 2 weeks, I'm actually considering it. Haven't swam a meet in 4 years!!!

8.8 mi easy (81 min)
1425 yd swim

10 x 100 on 1:30
2 x [50 kick + 100 fast] 1:13s
50 kick
50 easy
25 kick

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Sounds good to me. I don't really wanna do a virtual distance meet at this point, the sprints are fun and easier to slot in to public lane swims. Plus, like Dev said way back, we all are doing distance stuff in tri-season, for those of us who are doing / returning to tris. I still have painful memories over the 1500 I did in the fall. I think that over the next few months to basically expand that lineup to a sprint pentathlon (50's of all strokes plus a 100IM (or 2IM if LCM). Doesn't all have to be done in one session / virtual meet, just do it over the "season".

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I keep forgetting to post - bad me.

2500 this am
300 wu
6 x 50 descend 1-3, 4-6 (first 3 free, last 3 br)
100 ez
2 x (
8 x 50 fast - 2 fr, 2 br
100 descend by 25)
12 x 50 kick br, descend 1-3
100 ez

I'm not posting my workouts because I suck right now....

Need to decide on events for the long course meet, tentatively putting myself down for 50 fly and 200IM. You comin' down?

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Undecided - I kinda hate long course. Do you know when your provincials are going to be yet?

I haven't heard anything yet.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

So for this month are these the final events to post?

50 Fly
50 back
50 breast
50 free
200 IM

I think what Monty suggested. 50 fly 50 back 100 IM (200 IM if swimming lcm). Add the other events in later months

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

3200 SCY, still working that 1:14.80/100 1650 goal pace


Warm Up
200 pull, 200 kick
8x25 drill

Main Set
16 x 150 on 2:15, target <1:51.40
(I missed # 14, took an extra interval's worth of rest before # 15)


Cool Down
200 EZ choice

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

OK I will do the 50 fly, 50 back and 200IM tomorrow and report back.

Im in.
Tomorrow maybe the 50s with the IM on monday... will see what group is like.
daved
Might bring gopro and video it.
Why not just put it out there?? haha
warning it wont be pretty

Going to hop on this thread because I'm pretty happy with a workout I did yesterday (scy):

Warmup:
200 swim w/ fins
200 kick w/ fins
200 pull w/ buoy
4x100 descend on 2:00


Main set:
4x1k on 14:00 (12:18, 12:35, 12:34, 12:43)

Coodown:
200 choice

Definitely the most tired I've ever been in a pool. Didn't feel as good as 3x1k I did a couple of weeks ago but I made the intervals which was the goal.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

That is an impressive workout! well done!

daved

well-done.

3.5 mi run and 800ish yards in a hotel pool. Outdoor hotel pool :D

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

I am coming into 4 days off so today as part of a 90 min 4400m workout, I did 7x200 IMand one times 400IM. Rest of workout was free or fin work.

I hit a PBin the second 200IM with a 3:40....I was so close to 3:39, but it think my higher cadence strategy on the breast backfired as it winded me with less glide and I went 3 seconds slower than earlier in the week on the breast leg.

In any case I took my 200IM from 3:52 to 3:40 in a month and it was mainly on back and breast with maybe a second to two faster on the free leg from being less cooked after the back and breast.

I will post a 50 fly and 50 back time hopefully on the 28th, but just came out of a cortisone injection in my disc, so nothing hard for several days.

I was trying to figure out what to do today, then I remembered the set of 150's you did Gary in prep for your 1650. I was thinking I would do a pull one in the next week or two, so I pinched most of your set, just a bit slower of course;


2x150s@2;20(2;07/2;06) 150 IM kick(2;56)


12x150p@2;15( 1;56to 1;57's) 150IM kick(2;58)


8x50's fly@1;00/back@1;30/breast@1;00/back@1;30 twice through (fly-36/35. breast--45/43- backs-45/43/44/42)


200 dolphin kick
3x50s@1;00(37/37/35
3000SCY


so looks like I maybe will be able to hold 1;20's or just under for 1650, have to be a good day...

Short Course Yards:

5 x 200 @ 2:45
5 x 200 @ 2:40 (2:24-:26)
1 x {600 snorkel
{400 snorkel and paddles
{400 snorkel as 25 kick, 75 swim
{100 snorkel
6 x 200 @ 2:40 paddles
4 x 75 @ :03 rest, 25 kick, 50 swim
4 x 50 @ :45 (:33-:34)
4 x 50 @ :03 rest, 25 kick, 25 back
100 free easy

5500yards

still at a conference. 9 mi run w/ 2 mi @ 8:00, then 2 x 1 mi @ 7:53
550 ish yards in the hotel pool

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

I am in withdrawl....2 days without swimming after getting a cortisone shot in my disc. Doc says that I can swim today (48 hours later), but I don't trust myself to overdo it once I get going as I know I will start "testing" to see if the injection is working and really it does not start really having an effect until 3-7 days later, so better resist and virtually swim through all you people on this thread....so please post some feats of strength. I'll get back in the pool tomorrow after 72 hours have expired!

I got news for you Dev, there is a thing in swimming called a taper. Having 3 days off is just going to mean that you will probably crush your old times you did when tired. And when you do those times they become the jumping off point now for future gains. It is a good thing to occasionally taper, go fast, feel what it is like to go fast, and reprogram your brain on how it feels so that you can now try and emulate it in workouts going forward. Especially in the strokes where you have a lot of low hanging fruit...

Hey, that almost feels like cheating!!!! Is this permitted on ST. I thought the rules around here is that we must be permanently overtrained! I guess technically after my 72 hour taper I would also be banned by USADA given that I'll have cortisone in my disc!!!

Ha, wait until you shave your whole body Dev, you will jump in the water and probably drown because you cannot feel it!!!

Shave, taper, off the blocks, tech suits(although this one might be stretching it) are all legit. Just no drafting(yes no drafting in swimming too!!) and no toys, unless you just want to do a toy swim for shits and giggles..

I went today feeling shitty from yesterdays run and didn't expect much. But it grew on me as I eased into this workout:

4x500--swim@7;30(7;06)IM kick@10;00(9;28)pull@7;00(6;25)IM kick@10;00(9;19, new pr for the comeback)
5x100 breast@2;00 descend(1;36/35/33/32/30) another best set lately
200 dolphin kick(4;15)
6x25 fly hard/free easy @;30(15+'s for fly). 50 kick
2900SCY

I had my first day back in the pool and made it a long swim and refrainied from timing anything, just getting in tune with how my body feels after the cortisone injection. My core and lower back have always been very tight after this in previous shots, so did not want to do anything hard. Or maybe things felt easy cause I was tapered and my glycogen stores were topped up, but I was in the pool for 2 hours and had 3x400IM in there, 5x200IM. Some 50/50 fly free, a pile of kick work and a 200 Butterfly (I am trying to figure this one out, breathing every second stroke I can pull harder, but less oxygen, breathing every stroke, I have to use my core and legs more).

Kick work on my back was hard. For the first 2 weeks after the shot, I get calf cramps easily, so it was no surprise that I had a couple of killer cramps that left me on the verge of drowning when kicking on my back. In any case, good to be back in the pool.

Also good proof of glycogen stores being totally topped up after 72 hours of no exercise and mainly lying around or sitting. For 2 hours of swimming, I did not need any nutrition or anything to drink. Body was well replenished. Normally at the end of a 2 hour swim with no food or drink (the only reason why there is none is because an 80 min swim turned into a 120 min swim just cause I had time), I am dying to quickly get to calories and liquids.

Been in Mexico for the past 3 days. No lap pool here, but a big two-level terraced curved pool (infinity edge between the two with a ~ 3 foot drop). I've been doing my morning swims in the lower level, along the curved wall. Guestimating, based on stroke count, about a 40 meter length (pretty much double the stroke count I'd do for 25 yards). Did some sets of 80's and 120's, but didn't have any sort of watch to pace so I just swam to a perceived effort and counted breaths for a rest interval. Did one short open water swim in the Pacific in "red flag" conditions. Survived, but swallowed a fair bit of salt water, LOL!

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

I stole Mike Collins birthday set for this morning; 3000 yards
w/u: 300s/100k/100bk
4x75@1:15 (60%)
3x50@:50
6x25(1 breath)@:40
4x75@1:15 (70%)
3x50br@1:00
6x25br@:40
[remaining w/fins]
4x75@1:15 (80%)
3x50bk@1:00
6x25bk@:40
4x75@1:15 (90%)
3x50fl@1:00
6x25fl@:40
100 cool
It went great, a lot of fun, in fact.
Yesterday morning was spent in the cold ocean (51-53 degrees), and I was surprisingly comfortable. I bought a Huub demo wetsuit, Archimides 4:4, and hated it until I got the collar right. Not as warm as a DeSoto T1, but I'm starting to enjoy it. We got in 2236 yards. There were a few that did around 5000, with no wetsuit!
Saturday was the final WTRS (Winter Trail Race Series) run - a marathon on the rugged singletrack San Juan Trail. It wasn't quite a marathon at 25.2 miles. Plus, I missed a turn (not marked good enough for delirious minds at 19 miles), which turned out to be a shortcut by almost a mile, but some extra climbing missed, as well. When I realized I made the wrong turn, I was too far entrenched to turn back. Frustrated, I slowed down and did far more walking than I should have. I think the proper route and continued running, I would have been at least 10 minutes faster even though a mile longer. I got in 24.14 miles and 3593 feet of climbing in 5:28. A friend, who did it right got 25.03 and 3910 feet. I could have done a small loop to make it up, as I was feeling fairly good except for a hip flexor giving me fits, but I said screw it, I'm done. Turns out 8 of the 30 people running it made the same mistake. The GF did, too. She was about 10 minutes ahead of me, but being the honest person she is, she did an out-and-back to make up the mileage. We both got first in our divisions and we were in the elite club of 8 that did all 5 races - 12k, 18k, 21k, 30k & marathon.

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Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

Will post times on the virtual meet thread and I did video it w gopro... not sure if it turned out well

Back to fishthread:
Main set this am:
8x 100 (scy) on 1:20
50 ez on 1min
two rounds

I held 108s-109s on 100s and chose to do the 50s in the middle, and end, as the virtual meet.
So 50 fly 30.15
50 back 34.26

dave

Also posted up some times on the swim meet thread, but this was my swim today, best in a long time;

4x(5x100's) swim@1;40(1;23 to 1;17) IM kick@2;00(1;53 to 1;46) pull@1;30(1;12/12/11/10/09) IM kick@2;00(1;56 to 1;48)

4x50@1;00/100 easy@2;30 fly (32) breast(39) back (39) free(31) 200 dolphin kick

6x25's@;30 fly/free(fly's 15+/16/15+) 50 kick

3000SCY

first swim since Friday

2.3 mi run
575 yd swim just to get in
3.5 mi run w/ 2 mi @ 8:34 pace

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

today's excuse for short workout: gave blood yesterday
4.2 mi run 37 and change
625 yd swim, primary goal to do some breaststroke and make my hips move in the lateral plane

100 swim
50 kick
150 swim
50 kick
275 swim


Month total is a whopping 13,950 yards. whoops.

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Dr. Tigerchik wrote:

today's excuse for short workout: gave blood yesterday

The last time I gave blood, I went out on a bike ride the following day. On a hill climb, the horizon started tilting. I had to sit curbside for awhile, then limp back home.

Morning swim:
5x100 continuous as 100s/100k
800 IM kwf
200 pull
20x50@1:00 as 25 stroke/25 free IM order
300 pull
200 k/s cool


3000 sc yardages

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Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

Seems like a great week of swimming for you!

I bet you get to swim outside too...?
ugh

daved

Ya, no such thing as an indoor pool around here, you really have to look hard for one, usually gym pools, ick!

I have had a nice progression since beginning a couple months ago, getting up to 7k a week average or so now. But this last workout reminded me why I have to take it slow, was completely shot the next day and felt sick. So took a day off and just ran yesterday easy and will try an easy swim today.. I just dont know what it is, but if I go into the tank at all it has an immediate effect on my health, not like in the old days when I would just suffer and then be good a couple hours later..

Ahh the old days...
I remember them as well.
Im at 79 days of running now and even tho mostly its been slow miles in the trails.. im smoked. I have ridden 200miles this year so far. That aint much.
But ohhh to swim outside.. OHHHH ... im so jealous

effin east coast...
I keep telling my wife to open a california office (specifically palo alto ha) but, not gonna happen.

come to bermuda!
daved

I think in the good old days when you went deep in the tank, you just relaxed and maybe had a nap, and then went out with Jurgen Zack for a 200 k bike ride at 40 kph hammering for town sign sprints. Now instead of being pummelled by Jurgen, you get pummelled by all the bugs that your kids bring home!!!!

OK Tigerchik where is the March thread. All of these guys keep talking about going to Bermuda and swimming outside. This is the closest I am getting to Bermuda:



This is my "home pool" around 5 min drive from home and it used to be 2 min drive from home. Once I have some bigger funding for my startup, I need to move "corporate HQ" back next door.....for now, I am 10 min drive away. Lane swim available 6 am to 4 pm and 7 pm to 9 pm, 4 lanes.

OK bring on the March thread so we can see some feats of strength!!!

Have you done a lot of CSS work garyp? I did a test several weekends ago. After a normal warmup and some build intervals, I swam 400y in 5:05. Then, after a 45s rest, a 100y recovery swim in 1:17 followed by a 1m45s rest, I swam the 200 in 2:29. Plugging in the numbers got me to a 19.5s interval rate to put on the tempo trainer. So today, I went to the pool and proceeded to swim 10x200s with a 20s rest interval (basically one iteration of the tempo trainer). However, after four 200s, I was knackered and unable to sustain that pace on the fifth 200. A little bit disappointed in this first attempt. Do you regularly try to complete the CSS sets, 200s, 400s or longer distances? Weekly? I know that is what some swimsmooth recommends.

Your setting should be 18.75s. Is that what you would program in to swim these sets? I will probably go out next week and attempt to increase the time to maybe 20 flat to see how that works.

This is a general observation about swimmers vs pretty well every other endurance sport. It is interesting how swimmers agonize about making splits and send off times. I am pretty sure that all of this is meaningless physiologically.

The only reason swimmers arer bound by send off times, is simply because in an organized workout this is the only way to do it. If not the group workout falls apart. It has little to do with physiological optimization. Cross country runners get plenty fit just running kind of randomly on a variety of terrain. 200m, 400m, 800m, 1600m runners (corresponding to 50m, 100m, 200m, 400m swimming) generally don't have anything called a send off time for their intervals. They may jog a recovery amount or just stand around till the heart rate drops and then they go when they feel ready vs being stuck going on the prescribed sent off. As fitness improves, rest intervals drop and active times come down too. Basically the same as swimming. But since track guys are not confined to a pool with lanes and clocks and other athletes filling every inch of real estate (also runners can control the watch on their wrist, real swimmers don't have a watch on the wrist and are bound by the pace clock), they have more flexibility.

Ask a runner or cyclist or XC skier or even a speed skater what the send of time is, and they probably will not know what you are talking about. But its the same heart, lungs, body, so as multi sporters, it is interesting to see the dynamic. When I watch XC skiers train, again intervals are totally different...often nothing to do with specific times to the seconds, but built around terrain and rough durations!

You're right about the send off times Dev. However, as a runner, we will simply jog a 200 or 400 in between our 800-1600 repeats. The recovery intervals may be slower the more repeats we do, but we still have an endpoint at where we take off and do the hard work again. Since this was my first critical swim set after the test and I'm only an n=1, I wanted some other data points or maybe just someone to say either keep working at it or...

I'm swimming on my own with no pace clock available or even a clock with a second hand.

I've personally only used the CSS test as a fitness benchmark, never a foundation for a training plan. Until recently, most of my training was focused on races 500 yards and shorter, so most of my training was at a pace considerably faster than my tested CSS. This winter I've been very focused on mile pace training so, not surprisingly, my most recent CSS test results aligned tightly with the "goal pace" I've been training at.

Honestly, I think 10x200 on 20 seconds rest at CSS is a pretty aggressive set. I don't do 200's at my CSS/mile-goal-pace, and doubt I could do 10 consecutive on 20 seconds rest. I started the season doing 20-25 x 100, then went to 16-20 x 125, and more recently 12-16 x 150; all on ~20 seconds rest. Maybe if I backed off the target pace 1-2 seconds per hundred, I might make 10x200. Which brings up the point that the CSS test isn't exact, and that even at sustained mile pace (which CSS is supposed to estimate), 1 second/100 can still be a pretty big difference in demand.

I raced a 1650 yesterday for the second time in a month, and again came in ~ 1 second/100 slower than my goal pace/CSS Test pace. First time I just swam by perceived effort, consistently posted mostly low-mid 38's for 50 splits, and, with the always-faster opening 100 and a strong finishing 100, ended up with a 1:15.99./100 average. Yesterday, I could see my splits on the scoreboard every 50 so I was trying to hold 37.50's. I fell off somewhere around 700, and really died around the 1000 mark. I ended up finishing with a bunch of 50's in the mid-39's, and averaging 1:16.32/100 for the whole race. For me, the CSS test seems more like an indicator of 800/1000 race pace than 1500/1650/mile.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Yeah, that's kind of the point...as runners, we jog to the start of the next interval, but our rest interval is generally highly variable even though the distance is the same, you will see runners basically dogging it until they are rested enough to hit the next one hard. For a runner, it seems it is more important to hit the times during the interval. For a swimmer the cumulative interval+time comes into play. I am not sure physiologically which one is better. I think given the weight bearing nature of running, taking variable rest till your heart race drops is the right way, since there is injury risk when form falls apart. For swimming there is no injury risk. Having said that, doing intervals when you can't control your form probably leads to ingraining bad form when tired if the send off time is too short.

I do think that on the aggregate taking sufficient rest in the way to go. In most sports other than swimming, this is what happens. I understand why things are structured the way they are for group swimming. But I don't think it has anything to do with how this affects physiology more optimally.

When in the pool, sometimes I will go for strict send off times. Most of the time, I just swim and sometimes I am limited at lane swim depending on who is in lane. I've been in masters groups too, where one lane's send off times are too fast for me, and the next lane down, I am getting way too much rest!