This is easily going to eclipse, in scope and scale (and sheer incompetency as well as cover-up when it comes to the school administration, the university police, the local cops, the trustees, the athletic department... you name it), what went on at Penn State. We follow the goings-on at MSU closely down here in the Detroit area. This one is horrifically bad. I'm not even sure there's a punishment that would be too harsh when it comes to holding the university accountable.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

This appears to be orders of magnitude worse than the horrific abuse at Penn State.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

For me, I want jail time for the administrators, they should not get away with just resigning. That and significant impact to the university.

Otherwise, why should the admin care? If it doesn’t truly impact them, so what. That and since I am not in position any more, I’m safe. That has to stop.

This definitely goes for the US Olympic committee as well, if not more so.

The problem with something like this - and we saw it play out with Penn State too - is these major conference athletic schools hold so much sway over local and even sometimes state politics, they have a ton of money and influential donors, and the vast majority of people in the community support the school, many of them went their, are boosters, their kids go there, so no one wants to make waves and it breeds this culture of zero accountability and scandals allowed to be swept under the rug.

Some of these school admins and even coaches, depending on the scenario, have to go to jail. If people knew about Nassar and/or other instances of assault that were swept under the rug then they were complicit and should be held accountable.

Finally, fuck these university administrators. Why do they make so much money, they basically amount to boosters and fundraisers for their schools, how does what they do--enrich themselves and fellow school administrators--help the kids attending the school? I think it's all fairly corrupt and incestuous and self-serving and does nothing to improve the actual university experience beyond making it more expensive to attend a university.

I think Congress has indicated already that it's going to closely examine USOC's and USA Gymnatics' role in all this.

This one is bad, bad, bad. No other way to put it. It's sickening. It goes to the very heart of evil, and the fact that people knowingly tolerated such evil in their midst -- people in power and with the ability to quickly do something about it -- is doubly sickening.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

The Detroit News, in an article yesterday, noted that part of the problem at the three "showcase" state schools in Michigan (MSU, University of Michigan, and Wayne State University) is that all the trustees are voted in in at-large elections, so there's little accountability and a dearth of actual experience in managing such institutions. The trustees are just there to score prime VIP boxes at football and basketball games and other high-status perks. I believe the trustees at State include an ex-football coach (George Perles) and several others who have been voted back in for years. Typically, trustees in other states are voted in by district or they're gubernatorial appointments. The legislature here in Michigan doesn't even have any power over them and can't remove them from office.

So where were the MSU trustees when all of this was going on? Largely on the sidelines and not even paying attention to what Lou Anna Simon and the rest of the administration as well as the athletic department was up to.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Given it is a public university the university is the public. So punishing the university doesn't help so much. I don't know to what extent the university admin can be legally held accountable.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

No, the university represents the public. Punishing INDIVIDUALS associated with the university, who either didn't follow local/state laws, Title IX laws, or were in some way complicit would be a good start, and I think that helps a lot. It sends a message that these public institutions can't and won't be run like the good ole boys club they typically are, the country club high-roller booster club shit that goes on behind the scenes while corruption and criminality is happening under the administrations oversight.

I don't know just how criminally liable school administrators will be in this case, but to the greatest extent they can be held accountable I'd like to see them punished. The NCAA, major conference university shenanigans are an absolute joke in this country, meanwhile our kids (and/or their parents) are asked to fork over an obscene amount of money for the privilege of attending one of these fine institutions. Complete crock of shit if you ask me.

Maybe the problem is mixing education (or lack of) and sports.
Especially when the athletes are on slave contracts while everybody else are having a blast.

By the way how much of a scumbag does Lou Anna Simon look like? Her resignation letter oozed of righteous indignation, she's an elitist piece of shit who's lived in a university cocoon for her entire 40 year career. Think about that, she's been with MSU admin for forty fucking years, she must have heard and seen so much shit with that basketball and football program, with Nassar and others, and she's somehow survived it all.

Nassar deserves all the fun he'll be provided in prison until he rots there, but Simon really should be joining him for a nice long stretch in my opinion.

I agree with the first bit, this mixing of university and sport in the US is and has been a problem for a long time.

But on the second, that's a bit dramatic no? Given the cost of higher ed now, these kids are getting $60, $70K per year educations for free, with a stipend. Hell, compare it to kids who sign minor league baseball contracts (many out of HS, many more after 1-3 years of college) who make ~$12K a year for the chance to be that special 0.001% that makes the majors, AND there's no diploma at the end if they fail.

And hell, if we're being honest the best of these college athletes are also getting some pocket change and some clothes and cars and more.

They do not get an education for free. They get a promise of an education. But as we have seen. The schedules are to busy and sometimes the classes are just fake.
You get something for free if you do not have give anything back.
It is quite clear that this is not a fair treatment.

When I went to university in Norway I had several friends playing professional soccer at the same time as they study. It was no problem.

Also, NCAA is not following their own rules. They "have" the same rules for every sport, but do not follow them.
I have friends on D1 universities, all Americans and they have sponsors. Of course they do not compete in football or basketball where a church league can get you kicked out.

When my American university complied about being broke at the same time as they start building a $300m stadium, I decided not to donate to that institution.
Fun fact, in the beginning of 2000s the softball MD at UW had the nickname Dr. Feelgood since he gave athletes steroids ++. Just like sport in Russia.

You have it very wrong with the 2nd Mile Sandusky Scandal.

1.Sandusky was the founder of the 2nd Mile, a charity serving troubled and at risk youth in the 1970’s. By the late 90’s, the charity was a fundraising machine with Sandusky driving the money due to his his fame as top flight defensive football coach.

2. 2nd Mile’s Board members in the 2000’s included a who is who of Central PA politics and businesses. Also, several PSU Board members were also on the 2nd Mile boardIncluding Tom Corbett, PA attorney general who kicked off the investigation in 2008, and other business leaders who contributed over $600,000 to Corbett’s successful gubernatorial campaign in 2010. WhilCorbett’s office was investigating Sandusky.

3. 2nd Mile was the largest provider of foster care, counseling, and mentoring programs for central PA’s children and youth services. Also, due to its status as a charity for youth, it was under the umbrella of the attorney general’s office from a compliance standpoint.

4. Sandusky met ALL of his victims through his involvement with the 2nd Mile, most of his victims were referred to 2nd Mile through Children and Youth Services.

5.2nd Mile exercised very little oversight in regards to Sandusky - he was allowed unsupervised one on one time with 2nd Mile clients, took clients out of school without parental consent or permission, etc. In fact, the CEO of the 2nd Mile had said they had to tell Sandusky to back off of kids before due to his “neediness”.

6. In 2008, the Sandusky investigation is kicked off by victim 1, by Aaron Fisher. The investigation stalls for two years and does not pick up steam until AFTER Tom Corbett is elected governor in 2010. In the meantime, instead of putting the PA State Police sex crimes unit on the Sandusky case, Corbett assigns narcotics investigators to it.

7.Durng the Sandusky investigation, no attempt is made to pull records from the 2nd Mile. When the SHTF in 2011,2nd Mile closes shop, former Philly DA Lynne Abraham is called to do an investigation on 2nd Mile’s role with Sandusky. About a month later, investigation is closed, no report is done, because there are no funds to do it, and 2nd Mile assets are transferred to Arrow Ministries in Texas.

8.Sandusky is investigated in 1998 by PSU police, and CYS. PSU police recommend charges to the DA, the DA axes them because CYS gave Sandusky the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval for his naked showering habits with kids.

9. In early 2001,Grad Assistant Mike McQueary hears slapping sounds in the coache’s shower. He peers around the corner and sees through a mirror a child and Sandusky in close proximity to each other. Keep in mind, Sandusky had been retired from PSU for two years at this point.

10.McQueary goes home, tells his dad whose the office manager at a large medical practice, and Dr. Dranov, a doctor at the said medical practice. Dranov asks McQueary three times if he SAW ANYTHING SEXUAL. McQueary says no. Instead, they tell Mike to let Paterno know the next day.

11. McQueary “tells” Paterno what he saw, admits later that he gave less detail to Paterno than he did his father and Dranov. Paterno kicks the report to the athletic director Tim Curley, and Gary Schultz (administrative head of PSU Police).

12. Schultz, Curley, and Spanier kick around what to do, and finally settle on telling Sandusky’s employer, 2nd Mile not to bring kids on campus anymore. The 2nd Mile CEO tells Sandusky to wear swim trunks and the chairman of the 2nd Mile board gives Sandusky the key to the fitness room at one of his hotels he owns to take 2nd Mile kids to work out since PSU is off limits.

13. Curley and Schultz plead guilty to misdemeanor failure to report, Spanier is found guilty of failure to report which is being appealed by Spanier.

14. Turns out, the “anal rape in the shower witnessed by McQueary” as told in the Grand Jury Presentment never happened. Sandusky was found not guilty of those charges, McQueary wrote a letter to the author of the presentment that he never saw anal rape, and testified at multiple trials that he only saw Sandusky with his body up against the child.

I hold Spanier and Schultz responsible for poor judgement - by all means, they should have called CYS just to cover the university’s butt. As to some grand conspiracy to protect Sandusky? No way. If it was, they would have never had reported it to 2nd Mile.

The greater crime with the Sandusky scandal is there was no investigation as to how a serial pedophile was able to found a charity for at risk kids, able to care for DOZENS of foster children, and adopt several children, Sandusky was able to dupe the experts. Yet, there was NOTHING done to dissect how he was able to do it.

If you ever run for Judge and I can vote for you, you've got my vote. They should all rot in hell. And that includes Izzo and Dantonio.

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"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."

Times two. So who do I gotta kill to make this happen? ;-)

By the way, MSU athletic director Mark Hollis -- one of the folks in the leadership at the university who should have had a clue (assuming he didn't know everything about what was going on, in the first place) -- announced his retirement today. He was the AD, but I'm sure he gave the women's sports programs at the university about two minutes of attention daily, including when potentially disturbing issues in the female gymnastics department cropped up. Too busy managing the multi-million dollar football and basketball programs and all the lucrative endorsement deals, no doubt.

Also, my guess is he's getting out and hoping to avoid a figurative firing squad in the form of possible civil as well as criminal investigations. This horrible tragedy is going to haunt the university for years. No way Hollis could stay after presiding over an athletic program where he was at the helm when all of the allegations finally came to light.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

And then there's this report about comments made today by a prominent and wealthy MSU donor in reaction to the ballooning fallout from the women's gymnastics tragedy. It makes me think maybe we should reconsider the prominence given to athletics at what are supposed to be institutions of higher learning and knowledge:

"Parents who don't feel safe sending their children to Michigan State University in the wake of the Larry Nassar scandal should send them to other schools, said a university prominent donor and Grand Rapids businessman.

Peter Secchia said in an interview Thursday with WZZM- TV, an ABC affiliate in Grand Rapids, that there are a lot of students waiting to get into the university.

"I would say to them that if you don't feel comfortable with your children at Michigan State, take them somewhere else because we've got a long list of people that want to go to Michigan State and there are some wonderful people left," he said."

Also by the way: it isn't extremely hard to get into Michigan State University. It's harder to get into the University of Michigan and not hard at all to get into Wayne State University. All are considered the most prominent of the state's public universities.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Bwaaahaaaahaaaaaa!

YEAH! No fun at all!!!

Cam Newton and 10 College Athletes in Scandal
http://bleacherreport.com/...-fault-or-the-system

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Having interacted with Secchia many times back in the day when I was involved in GOP volunteerism and activism, I can confidently say he’s truly as arrogant, condescending, and clueless as these quotes make him out to be.

My point, in relating the two scandals, is that in both instances you had abuse happening by someone affiliated with a university, with reports of misconduct here and there, and nothing being done with it until the one that blew the whole thing open. Years of abuse, of even reported abuse, and the universities not doing what they could to protect the children/young women who would become future victims.

I graduated from MSU. My wife and sister graduated from MSU. My son is a student there now. I went to high school with Mark Hollis. As I write this, I'm watching the Spartan's basketball game. I certainly have my biases. I fully support investigations from the justice department and the NCAA. Anyone at the university that was involved in covering up, dismissing or just ignoring the issue needs to be gone.

Having said all that, and at the risk of being accused of a pro-child abuse position, this has turned into a bit of a torch and pitchfork quest for blood. Very little in the OTL report was new information. Most were either accusations that were investigated and never charged, or players that were charged and then dismissed. Six months ago these issues had been resolved and the university was moving past them, now that the spotlight of Nassar has been shown on them, they have new life.

I'm not sure what my point is, clearly changes need to be made, I just hope they can be made in a rational and measured way.

You are right. Those involved need to be punished. But, we should not lose sight of the fact that there are many, many students, student athletes, alum, and fans who did not do anything wrong and the punishment here should be directed at those who were culpable.

As horrible as the Penn State crimes were, I had a great deal of sympathy for the students and athletes who had to carry the brunt of the punishment. It really is a tough position. The NCAA has to take action that effectuates real change, but, I really wish they could hold those responsible, responsible.

While not even close to being in the same league as far as seriousness, it is akin to the penalties imposed on USC for the actions of Reggie Bush and Pete Carroll. Those responsible walked away free and clear, leaving other to deal with the ruins.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I think some of the more damning things to come out of the OTL report is how the athletic department was self-policing. That combined with the Nassar scandal, it's starting to appear that there is lack of institutional control. Simon was chair of the executive committee right after the PSU scandal and yet her own university lacks the ability to follow through on basic items, which reflects that the President couldn't get people to follow directives, or it just wasn't a priority. There is potentially evidence of statutory non-compliance. AD Hollis did not even formally reach out to female student-athletes until 5 months after Nassar was fired. That does not demonstrate genuine concern.

My wife graduated from COM, Dean Strampel's name is on her diploma. His failings in 2014, in light of his reputation related to being inappropriate (sexually) do not seem to be very surprising. Something smells rotten in East Lansing, and there is an impression that sexual hostility pervades the campus.

All of this, coupled with the complete lack of consideration for victims and tone deaf responses from the top leadership has basically invited a ton of scrutiny. The complete mishandling of this over 16 months lead to the galvanization of the victims and it developed into international media exposure. There is a chance that MSU may get a draconian punishment, and it wouldn't be fair to certain parties. However, sometimes, life isn't fair.

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There are three kinds of people, those who can count, and those who can't.

Right now, Sparty (MSU) is looking at a years-long (if not decades-long) black eye and reputation of being the state's "child molester school." Now, that's not fair to the 99 percent of the people associated with MSU who have done absolutely nothing wrong in the Nassar matter as well as ESPN's OTL piece on Mark Dantonio and the football program.

Unfortunately, current (and recent past) school leadership appears to have either taken no action at all when the allegations on the part of all these female gymnasts first came to light or they appear to have actively done things to try to cover it up or gloss it over. Former women's gymnastics coach Kathy Klages, for example, who quietly retired last February, is alleged to have pressured at least one gymnast to remain silent about her concerns, according to an ABC News report.

School president Lou Anna Simon (who just announced her retirement the other day, though she's on the job for the next 60 days to help MSU find her replacement) also appears to have been indifferent to the issues that arose as a result of the Nassar tragedy. At least one credible allegation crossed her desk and she took no action whatsoever, as far as can be told from public records, to do anything about it. She also appears to have been frozen into seeming indifference by the plight of the female gymnasts as they began telling their stories publicly.

The university police appear as a modern-day Keystone Kops in this sorry saga. They prove that NO university police department should EVER be entrusted with obvious criminal investigations.

The school supposedly conducted an internal investigation into the Nassar matter. Yet didn't commit that investigation to paper and can't produce any investigatory materials for public records requests by the media and interested parties?

The athletic director, Mark Hollis, appears to have either been out of the loop -- willingly or unwillingly, we just don't know yet -- on this tragedy which occurred within his athletic department. As one of the leaders with accountability for ALL athletes under his purview, his negligence seemingly borders on the criminal.

As you've noted, the school had a reputation, here in Michigan, for being a slightly rowdy place. Couch burning stories are legendary, for one, as is the "party school" reputation.

Combined with this and many other issues well-known to Michigan residents, and it's clear that all the good done by MSU faculty and students in almost all other areas is likely to be swept away in a sea of criminal and civil trials to come, including the actions taken by the board of trustees (former football coach George Perles, Joel Ferguson and others), who must answer for the fact that their supposed management of Simon, Hollis and all other school leaders and matters of import -- including an annual $1 BILLION budget -- seems to have been so incompetent.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

My daughter could have taken a US university athletic scholarship but we decided against that. She will still do her sport but on her terms.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I absolutely guarantee that these, and I am going to choose my words very carefully, cunts will create a narrative in their own minds explaining away their own inaction and indifference

What amazes me about this and the harvey weinstein thing is the number of people who either knew, participated or enabled just shit behaviour

Broadly speaking I was taught by my parents to be honest and polite. That included not sexually assaulting people I think. I say I think because they never specifically spelt that out unlike "don't steal" but I guessed they meant it

It's just not a huge fucking stretch to not just grope women or anyone else for that matter unless invited.............its just not that difficult. I did not need #metoo to figure out i should not grab random hot women uninvited ffs

But these cunts either did it themselves or knew someone who did and just said "oh, that's just harvey / Nasser being harvey / Nasser"

This gymnastics thing has really wound me up because you know that they will all have turned in to revisionist / apologists but in fact they were just jobsworth cunts all along. and were A person to touch my kids and someone else knew about it. Once I'd sorted out one lot. I'd move on to the next...............(or my romanian friends might. They are a little less forgiving than me........)

Apologies for the language.

It is being reported the Michael Caine will play the role of Lou Anna Simon in the movie adaptation.

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_____________________
Fester from Detroit, Mi

What a horror story no parent wants to live thru nor see their daughter suffer thru?

We went thru this and it's one of the reasons I'm still doing contract work for the govt as we burned thru virtually all our savings trying to keep our daughter alive. Drugged and raped at a college party; months later a very valid suicide attempt and angry when she woke up alive in the ER. God DAMN.

tears streaming down my face as i type this. GOD DAMN


well she is back up finally and engaged in life. Just married her off to a young man that really loves her. A couple of years ago i would not have thought this possible as we were struggling just to keep her alive. But what a world of pain and recrimination.

Dude perpetrating the crime is still in prison but will be out in a few years--thinking on that

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Steve

If I had a daughter and she experienced special treatment at the hands of Nassar, he'd be a dead man, no ifs and or buts. I'd arrange for a prison hit if I had to, and those are easy enough to get handled, and for not a lot of money, to be honest.

The others involved in this? Kathy Klages, the former woman's gymnastics coach who quietly retired last February? I'd make sure she was sued for every penny she has and that she was hounded mercilessly until the day she died, including by the criminal justice system. Mark Hollis? Civil suit, at minimum, hopefully for negligence. If possible, criminal negligence charges, if they can be supported by evidence. Lou Anna Simon? Same treatment as Klages.

Then there's USA Gymnastics. I hear that the United States Olympic Committee is demanding that ALL members of the USAG board resign by February. I hope it doesn't stop there with that governing body, though.

The same goes for the Karolyis, Marta and Bela, and the Karolyi ranch group. And simply closing the ranch isn't enough. Former US gymnast Dominque Moceanu has noted that the Karolyis knew what was happening with the female gymnasts at their ranch right down to the tiniest bit of food they ate and when they went to the bathroom, so it strains credulity that they had no idea what Nassar was up to. It's said that Marta Karolyi let Nassar run his own show there because he backed up her training regimen to the letter, including when it came to treating injuries (he mostly didn't, other than making a show of treating, because the Karolyis needed the girls and women in action and at competitions, not sidelined by injury recovery).

The US Olympic Committee also needs serious scrutiny about what they knew of the entire Nassar matter, along with USA Gymnastics.

Every single person who knew about Larry Nassar and his innovative "treatments" should lose their jobs, at minimum. And I'm not sure Michigan State University can be trusted whatsoever in this matter when it comes to any NCAA investigations. Perhaps a year or two of death penalty like status for the ENTIRE athletics program, at the Division 1 level (and that includes the men's football and basketball teams, which are the moneymakers at the university), would be appropriate, although I'm not sure the NCAA has the power or legal authority to extend things that far.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

That's a brutal story, top of the list of parents worst nightmares. Dude probably doesn't realize that prison saved his life at the time, what has time done for your rage since then? Really glad to hear she is doing well now, human beings are resilient creatures sometimes, but they do need help sometimes to realize that feature.

Really sorry for all you went through, glad you came out of it too. Whole different story when it is just on the evening news talking about people you have no real connection to, as opposed to being the "one" on the news. I hope I never even come close to this type of thing, but with 3 kids odds are at some point I will deal with a "real" situation before they are all married off and living their own lives..

No fucking way!

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I've made a obvious decision to be public here on this board. Nothing further to say on this particular matter

My heart breaks; it aches; I am in pain for the parents of these girls and even more so for them. These things tear me up. I never thought of myself as a pussy but i've never cried so much. It's just terrible

GOD DAMN

there is a lot of evil in this world. sometimes it comes into your life and that really sucks

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Steve

This is horrible. Those of us that have daughters shudder when we hear these kind of stories especially because it could happen to anybody's daughter. Glad to hear she is getting on with her life.

Sorry to hear that and am glad your daughter is on a better path.

As my father once said, and he was career army, there's nothing a Claymore can't solve. If I were in your shoes I'd know which way to point it. Grrrrlll.

thank you CG

growing up as a Army brat our daughter has a lot of 'Uncles.' So there is no lack of support or offers to help

I watch this ongoing horror story and it is just so painful--sorry if i've derailed the thread to our own little horror story. It is all so painful.

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Steve

Just getting teary eyed reading about it. Sending daughter off to Uni this year. Sorry you had to go through that.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I don't even know what to say to you, Steve, that would assuage your and your daughter's pain. Words are inadequate to the task, and anything else I say as far as making that guy pay for what he did would sound insincere and phony.

Just know that you and your family are in the prayers of me and my wife forevermore, and if there's ANYTHING I can do to help a brother in arms and fellow officer, just let me know.

Is there any GoFundMe or similar page you've set up to help your daughter make her way through this? Let me know.

I'm so very, very sorry for what your daughter and you and your family have gone through, and will continue to go through. "GOD DAMN" is right.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Here's exactly why MSU can't be trusted when it comes to any aspect of this matter and the future investigations to come:

MSU hid details of Title IX report from Nassar victim

"A Michigan State University Title IX investigator withheld key findings of a report on a 2014 sexual harassment complaint against Larry Nassar, providing less information to the victim in the case.

Kristine M. Moore, now MSU’s assistant general counsel, authored the dual reports, obtained by The Detroit News on Friday. In the one given to the victim, Moore cleared Nassar of sexual harassment. In the other report, which was sent to MSU and marked confidential, Moore also cleared Nassar but warned of his liability to the university."

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

It's all about the money. It's always about the money. So follow the money and you'll find the crimes.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I have two daughters, have already dealt with one of these moments in 8th grade. Can you imagine a fucking 8th grader dealing with this fucking shit. God speed to your daughter and all these wonderful young women who find themselves in such situations. Way, way to common and far too accepted. I see it in her still (now a junior in HS, older one is a freshman in college). She’s very solid until there’s a remote chance she’s in a situation where something could happen.

Almost as hard on me as it has been for her.

There’s a special place in hell for these demons AND their enablers. All of them.

I’m sorry for you and your daughter. Very sorry.

Thanks Tony

I've got a good gig working for JSOC and its helped us out of the $$ hole we got into spending on hospital stays, counseling, medication. airline tickets, apartments, ER costs etc etc. When your little girl's life is on the line you do what you gotta do.

In some ways i think we are blessed. Think of the parent whose daughter is taken by a drunk diver? murdered? At least we got to fight to save our girl and get her back---as long and as painful as that was. At least we have that.

I watch these news broadcasts about this gymnastic team doctor and see how in some cases the parents were even in the room as he sexually abused them!! The mind boggles at the level of pain and guilt these parents must feel??

GOD DAMN

i am on a yearly Bible reading study and i pray hard about stuff like this. Why such evil is allowed to exist?

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Steve

oh brother. 8th grade. God Bless you, Comfort you and Keep you and your girl

i am so sorry for her and your family to have to have undergone this trial

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Steve

Nothing happened to the boy. Why? Because in CA the law doesn’t believe a 14 yr old kid is mature enough to be charged with sexual assault. I told my daughter I’m pulling her from the school (was a classmate). She refused. She said she’d stick it out and not let him go a day without having to see her. She’s shake and cry at night but went to school with a smile. Eventually all the kids heard what happened to her and she wouldn’t address it. She would just say she’s not comfortable discussing it. I did confront the dad - not my proudest moment but to his credit he was mortified, didn’t deny it at all, and was in tears for my daughter. Wasn’t his fault but still.

But for all the courage I still see it under her every day, fear, shame, blame, emotion. It’s absolutemy amazing to me the lasting effect on these girls. These girls are far stronger than we are. I really don’t think I could handle it happening again to either of them.

Your daughter is a tough soul.

thank you.

thank you

God Comfort and Bless you and your girl

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Steve

You haven't derailed this at all but have driven it home on a more personal level. You can read all these kind of stories but until you hear it from someone you "know" (even if on an internet site) it doesn't phase you as much. It took courage to post what you did and we have to thank you for doing so. My daughter had some sort of an incident with a creep when she was young, not nearly as bad as with your daughter, but it still effected her a bit for awhile. I didn't even know about it until years later.

The other problem here is that medical care is dictated by athletic departments. There are massive conflicts of interest in this relationship and the NCAA only serves to enable schools at all levels to maintain this status quo to insulate athletics departments when events like this occur.

The NCAA could do itself a huge favor and allow care to be delivered by a medical unit on campus outside of athletics and stipe treating those that work there like coaches instead of the mandated reporters they are.

One of the challenges of this case for all investigators, including MSU's, is that intra-pelvic manipulation for several forms of soft tissue injury is an accepted form of treatment. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC3492521/

I'm not saying that Nassar was innocent by any means. He has been convicted of using a legit medical procedure as cover for his personal fetish. What I wish to point out is that non-medical investigators would quickly uncover that there are accepted osteopathic treatments that involve vaginal penetration. That creates a smokescreen that might be difficult for the investigator to see through. Three other doctors at MSU all said the treatment was legit, however the skin-to-skin contact was not what they would do, but could help in identifying soft tissue damage. When I read the news report about two Title IX reports, one for the victim and one for the university, what the University's version is saying is Nassar was not adhering to accepted practices of patient informed consent and education before treatment. I found this article that predates the conviction that discusses the treatment from a female doctor who is trained in this procedure. http://www.casiedpt.com/...log/treatmentvsabuse This site does a good job showing the line between how this procedure can be performed if the patient is fully informed and consents, versus Nassar who uses it as a defense for his fetish.

There were warning signs and a lot of things that could have been done better at many, many levels. But there is also a lot of pitchforks and tar being made ready that I simply don't understand. I don't get how does Izzo and Dantonio intersect with the Nassar case, other than they are high-profile MSU coaches? Klages, Hollis, Stampel, Teachnor-Hauk, and Hadden are the ones who were in a position to know or should have known that Nassar had crossed the line. These are the folks who most likely knew something wasn't right and failed to respond. Simon and MSU Council Moore were incompetent, as Moore's Title IX conclusion was flawed and Simon should have instructed serious discipline or dismissal of Nassar based on the flawed report anyway. Moore likely felt her conclusion was correct because the treatment was a recognized one. This makes her incompetent, not necessarily actively covering something up. Simon has to take the fall because she is the head of the organization and is responsible for everything that organization did or failed to do.

If the pitchforks and tar are going to be used, well we need to include Attorney General Schuette and Governor-candidate Gretchen Whitmer also. Whitmer was the interim county prosecutor, where the Meridian township police report was sent. AG Schuette's camp pursued the pornography charges, but failed to pursue the other charges until much later, claiming the Nassar thing was too big already (I found this reference yesterday, and will edit this when I refind it). But I think we can safely say these two politicians will ride this crisis like they were heroes, when in fact they each missed an opportunity to stop this sooner than it was.

This sucks. Glad you were able to be strong for your family and your little girl. From one old grunt to another, hang in there and keep the faith. Glad your little girl has been able to move forward.

I think you have to punish the individuals, not the school. Hopefully, the current student body is not guilty and therefore they should not be punished.

But holding individuals responsible with an actual threat of jail time may make them think twice before they look the other way.

Weren't you a Navy Seal?

If so, I'm reminded from a scene from the first Jack Reacher movie.

It was something like,"I'll be in your blind spot and that should make you nervous".

I'm sorry to hear about what you and your child had to go through.

Dang Steve, so very sorry to hear what you and your daughter went through. I’m glad she’s on the road to recovery.

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Steve was an Army Ranger, and a Top Hand at that. He knows what he wants to do, but he also is struggling with what he can do, given the constraints imposed on us by society and our own moral compasses. I wouldn't wish that sort of struggle on anyone who's of goodwill like Steve.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Where's theForge when you need him? Dirty deeds done dirt cheap.

Note: I'm not a violent person.

I once was, long ago. Some people just need killing. Like Nassar, for example. It's not my place, nor do I have a rigjt, to discuss Steve's tragedy.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Steve, I'm really sorry that you have to deal with that terrible shit. I'm a father of two teenage girls myself, and I can't even imagine your pain, but it still hits me closer to home than maybe most. I've written and erased about five different sets of advice, it all seemed too trite. Let me just say, though I've heard few details, I'm inspired by you and your daughter's story, and I'm pulling for the both of you for whatever part still lies ahead.

I'm certainly not making light of the situation and I don't know who would wish that situation on anybody. Really, I'm thinking that POS may be nervous if he knows Steve's background. That's all I was thinking.

I do believe countries in the south Pacific among other regions have criminal punishment figured out better than us. But then entities like the ACLU cry foul.

Steve, as a father of two teenage girls my heart breaks reading what happened to your daughter. I hope stories like this help other women and men understand what happens in the real world and why we all need to be on guard.

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"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."

From what I heard, Dantonio and Izzo had a combined 16 cases of players committing sexual assault and covering it up.

The punishment for one player was he had to tell his mom.

Um, are you fucking kidding me?

I guess the Nassar thing has brought this other stuff to light.

Your hearing things wrong.

Last year Dantonio had for players accused of sexual assault (two incidents). When the accusations were made, the players were suspended. When charges were filed, the players were dismissed. These 4 are counted in the 16, I'm not sure what else Dantonio could have done. There certainly was no cover up in this case. Most of the other incident consisted of accusations and investigations that lead to no charges.

There are certainly issues, but 16 incidents being covered up is just fake news. The witch hunt is feeding this type of misinformation.

I wouldn’t even know what to say. There’s probably nothing to say, really. But I’m sorry you and your family went through this and are still going through the aftermath. Peace and Godspeed, virtual friend.

Between this question and your other question about reading, there’s a book I can suggest that might be good for you at this time — What is the Bible? by Rob Bell. I’d be happy to Amazon Prime a new copy to you if you’re interested, just PM me your info. No pressure, no worries if it’s not at all what you’d like.

I often think of the words of Elie Wiesel with this question. He describes a scene in Auschwitz where multiple prisoners are being hung to their death, others forced to watch. Two bodies immediately died. Another hung, wriggling, writhing, struggling just to die, the body of a young boy. One prisoner pointer and begged, “Where is God in a time like this?” Another pointed to the dying boy, “There. There is God, hanging to die.” That could be interpreted a million ways. This isn’t the thread for me to discuss my take on that and the idea of God, but it’s a scene I cannot help but think of with this question of evil and God’s place.

Peace to you.

BS like that is why the ENTIRE school has to be punished. You don't get BS like this if EVERYONE, including the student body, is made to feel the sting of sanctions and consequences. Sorry, but sometimes collective punishment is indeed the answer. I think it's appropriate in this case.

It's obvious that at Michigan State, as well as the University of Michigan and other big league Division 1 schools, the student body tolerates a lot more from the elite athletes then would be tolerated in society generally. This is why I say the entire school should face the consequences. What those consequences are, probably adds up to criminal, civil as well as NCAA sanctions.

My personal recommendation would be the death penalty for the entire athletics department, as a way of sending a message to the others and encouraging them to do good and obey the rules in the future.

As with other state schools here in Michigan, Michigan State University is a public institution and the public should have a say in what is done with it. This was a monstrous, horrific crime, that was apparently tolerated as well as hidden by the school, from all available reports. There can be no light punishments as regards this tragedy.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

a friend told me when his children were born he felt this overwhelming sense of responsibility. i never felt that. i just wanted them to be healthy. now they are, the only thing that worries me is something happening to them

i am really sorry. i am really glad to read she has found someone who makes her happy. congrats on the wedding.

The process of how they were investigated and handled is what is under investigation:

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

If these stories hold water, it continues to paint a picture of a sexually hostile environment that seeps throughout the entire campus. This is relevant to both the civil lawsuits and potential future criminal cases.

The reason there is a "witch hunt" is because of the careless and callous reaction by the top administration for over 16 months. This was brought upon MSU by it's "leadership."

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There are three kinds of people, those who can count, and those who can't.

Both Izzo and Dantonio have said they will not resign. I'd bet my 401K that neither will be coaching at MSU next season. I'd like to see Izzo get shitcanned/resign before THIS season ends.

In today's climate there's no way they survive this. No way.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

There's something seriously wrong up in East Lansing as well as over at the NCAA:

Report: NCAA President Mark Emmert Was Personally Informed About 37 MSU Athlete Sex Assault Cases In 2010, Did Nothing.

Man, it's as if the NCAA is really nothing more than a cartel that's been constituted to protect universities, and not good guys at all, whaddaya think?

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

That is awful. Glad to hear your daughter is working it out and living life.

You are absolutely right, and it should be investigated. I was just correcting the statement that 16 football assaults were covered up. Nobody is reporting that. Your exhibit A suggests that 1 incident was handled by Dantonio himself, which he has denied. The narrative against MSU is serious enough, it does not need to be exaggerated.

I'm sorry to hear what you went through. I am a Father of two girls, 4 &1. Im scared this is the society they are going up in. I can't believe my wife and I will have to tell them soon what is appropriate touching and what isn't. I can't believe they may go to a school that will put cash over morals, and that there are creeps all over the world. I feel like I'm going to have to teach them it's ok to knee a guy in the nuts if they need to.

I am not a big strong intimidating guy, but sometimes I wonder if I should start lifting to help defend or prevent these creeps from thinking about my daughters. It won't help, but the remote chance....

I hope investigators make everyone who knew about this guy and the culture pay dearly. I'm ok if the whole big sports culture goes away at this point, we are giving these people too much power.

Not with a member of my family either. I have contemplated where my limits are and just how easily retribution could be obtained. Somebody would be missing and never found.

Nicely stated.

So if you wonder how things like this can happen, and why the victim's don't speak up here is one account from a nonMSU student.

http://www.cm-life.com/...tatement-jan-30-2018

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

This "news" story, is starting to generate a lot of questions, but not about MSU. Seem's ESPN needs to provide some more evidence, as there is more and more questions being generated, and the timing seems convenient.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

I'm reluctant to defend the University because there are certainly issues that need to be addressed, but the ESPN piece was really poor journalism. They essentially reported a bunch of second hand information (third hand for ESPN) from a former employee and then used "documents" that she wrote as verification.

They reported Travis Walton was charged with rape with no evidence of even an accusation. They have since walked back that claim while Walton was fired from his D-League coaching job. Adriene Payne was accused of assault in 2010, the DA refused to press charges and said publicly, "we don't believe a crime was committed". Now he's been released from the Orlando Magic 8 years later. ESPN seems more concerned with clicks than actually finding the truth.

These are really relevant conversations. It is easy to say all those bastards should be fired etc but all sorts of people knew about this stuff and did nothing because many of them made the similar thought processes to the victims.

Think about the victims all of them were highly invested in their gymnastics careers. Years of sacrifice. The parents same thing spending ten of thousand of dollars likely thousand of hours of time. If they made a public complaint good chance all of that gone. Many of the victims were high profile. If someone had held a press conference or wrote a public letter good chance it would have blew the whole thing open but they didn't for reasons we are starting to understand.

Now think of all the people who really just worker bees at MSU. They likely figured quite rightly that if they made a public accusation they likely would have lost their jobs and maybe made pariahs no chance of job in their profession etc. I am all for holding the folks in charge responsible. If you are the head of NCAA and you have 34 complaints about one school on your desk something seriously wrong about not doing something. Same with president of MSU.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

As an MSU grad, father of 3 young athletic girls and a youth sports coach, I’ve followed this pretty close.
What I find baffling is that any parent would allow a doctor to insert fingers into their daughter under the guise of helping fix an injury that will allow the kid to continue to compete in a sport.
If a doc said to me “your kid will get a chance at a gold medal if I’m just allowed to place a finger inside of her vagina and/or rectum”- this is the exact point that my daughter hangs up her gymnastics uniform forever.
And I’m probably in jail for assault at the mere suggestion that this is a viable medical procedure.
Maybe, maybe if you tell me that this is a known cure for some type of terminal disease that my kid has. And this procedure has a high success rate if the procedure is done.

Everything you just noted is EXACTLY why MSU ended up with former Republican governor John Engler as interim president, someone I'm sure the faculty and administration absolutely abhors.

He's now working to fire (i.e. revoke the tenure of) Nassar's former boss, William Strampel, who was the dean of the MSU medical school (an osteopathic college of medicine) and who oversaw the criminal doctor's activities for part of his time affiliated with MSU, as well as stating that the university will refuse to cover any of the legal expenses Strampel will occur as a result of his part in the Nassar tragedy. He's also worked to get a couple of other higher-ups in the university's medical department suspended.

Plus, MSU has seen gifts dip by 25%, possibly as a result of Nassar and his decades-long sex predator crime spree, which MSU appears to have been reluctant to do anything about, on the face of things.

Engler will do well if he sweeps the state school clean from stem to stern and puts in place mechanisms to ensure something like this never happens again. This includes working with the legislature to prohibit these state chartered and authorized universities (including the University of Michigan and Wayne State University) from being allowed to conduct their own criminal investigations or any sort of internal investigations where a crime as defined by statute appears to have taken place.

Universities and their campus police departments are in no way equipped to undertake such activities and they are not autonomous entities unto themselves. They answer to the people of the state and their elected representatives, something I think public colleges and universities across the country need to be reminded of at this point.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

1) It apparently is a very conventional treatment. Though there were several precautionary steps he didn't follow (wearing gloves for one)

2) One of the other steps he did not follow, was getting consent before hand. So later in his carreer he started having parents sign consent forms with every visit, that just had boil plate you agree to allow me to do what I need to kind of wording (sorry don't know exact wording).

3) Some parents were in the room, but he put up a privacy screen so they did not know exactly what he was doing.

As someone so involved in Kids athletics I am sure your aware, most parents are very protective of their kids, and I am sure most of these parents feel horrible, and would have said the same thing you said above. I don't think adding shaming to the parents of the victims does much good. Do you go to all your Dr. appt and know every procedure being done (assuming you have teenage girls, I'm particularly thinking of their yearly exams? )

As a former coach, father of 3 daughters who did H.S. athletics and one is in college. These events are horrific, but before this had someone said hey this is the best Dr. to see, more than likely that's where I would have gone. Young girls emotions are all over the place, so noticing a change is sometimes very hard.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.