To be fair, there are a bunch of African countries that are pretty much shit holes. Doesn't have anything to do with racism, it's just reality.

The issue is that we don't like to hear our President say it out loud. Not that it's racist or untrue.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Reality is, it has everything to do with racism, once you characterize what constitutes a "shithole" and how they came to be, and remain in, that state.

Odd thing for a good christian president to say about gods creation and people, isnt it?

I dont believe we have had a president with less compassion and empathy within my lifetime. (Gerald ford was president when i was born)

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

And this is what makes those with Trump Derangement Syndrome so pathetic. They'll use pretzel logic to twist anything he says into racism.

Any of you crybullies have plans to move to one of these shitholes? Yeah. I thought not.

FIFY

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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." Jimi Hendrix

Oh damn, you totally got me. I am not planning to move to Haiti, so Trump's not racist.

what seems most damaging is the write-off finality of it. Hey shitholes, you are what you are and you will never ever change.

Trump has a stable genius for cruelty.

Well then why not just a 2 week holiday?

I've been to a lot of those places, including Somalia and Afghanistan. What sh*tholes. Not seeing racism in describing them as what they indeed are, especially when you're behind closed doors in a meeting with your advisers and other people you trust. .

Like Mr. Slowguy said, we don't like to hear our presidents say such things out loud, though many of us say it every day when describing those places. I don't like the guy in the White House currently (but I didn't like his opponent in the general election, either) and he needs to put a filter between his brain housing group and his mouth, that's for sure. But a sh*thole place is a sh*thole place, for all of that.

And how many million billions of dollars have we spent in places like Haiti and Afghanistan and Somalia trying to make them less of a sh*thole? Plenty, I'd bet.

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

If what was said is accurate (as our dear leader has taken to Twitter to say it essentially was not...) then you have to look at what was said

"Why do we want all these people from 'shithole countries' coming here?"

It is the inclusion of the words "people from" which completely changes the context. Would you not agree that saying "That country is a shithole" is quite benign compared to what was said? The inclusion of those 2 words turns it from a statement about the country to a statement about the people. No doubt, with the natural and human disasters that have hit Haiti the country is a shithole. But that should not result in his supposed comment.

And honestly, a very stable genius and someone who is like, really smart would not have phrasedmmit like that.

If not Haiti, how about parts Appalachia in West Virginia, Kentucky, NC, or Georgia?

Would you move to those shitholes?

Am I being racist when I refer to some of those places as shitholes?

Shit Hole places and racism are seprate issues
Have you ever lived outside the US?

Let me answer on behalf of FF:

"No. You are racist because you are white."

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Where I live and how well I understand racism are separate issues.

I don't think he's racist.

Would he tolerate a racist if it benefitted him? Yes.

Would he put himself in harms way to fight racism? No.

Careful. You're talking about Trump's base in those places!

But more seriously, context matters. He's talking about the *people* and saying he wants people from places like Norway instead.

Agreed. TDS here at its finest. Can you imagine the 'outrage' should LBJs comments be published in near real time? or same day/hour/minute reporting of how he made folks come in to his private bathroom to brief him while he was taking a dump??

Sure there are lots of places that "we" commonly describe as shit holes. I've fought and served in many of them.

Having been assigned to Ft Drum, NY and Ft Polk, LA I've often said the Army assigned me to two posts that are basically opposite ends of a anal thermometer.

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Steve

My guess is you wouldn't want a refuge from a "shithole" country living in your house, but I don't think that makes you a racist because I don't think you're considering the race of the person when you make that judgement.

In fact, I don't see how anyone reads Trumps comment and goes immediately to race. I never even considered race.

Oh lest I forget, he also said a judge of Mexican descent doesn't have the ability to be fair.

Fuck it, there will always be racists and racist apologizers...

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"Your Attitude Determines Your Altitude."

As a person that grew up in GA and has lived in NC for the past 30 years, I am offended! Just hold on a second while I find the correct page in the Liberal Play Book to respond fully...

Okay, wait, here it is....

Um, says I am supposed to say:

You are RACIST!!!!

Check your f'ing privilege you f'ing yankee SOB

My feelings are HURT!

You are a NASTY person....

You are a xenophobic prick for not liking me.

You are unfit for citizenship in the US, that's 'not who we are.'

Where is my damn safe zone???? I am about to cry.

We are people too!

There, I feel better already.

Greg

PS: And FU.

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If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020

If he had just said that the countries were shitholes, I'd agree with you. I don't think it's racist at all to acknowledge that. However, when you say you don't want the people from those countries:

"Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?” he asked, according to accounts provided to The Washington Post. He went on to say that the United States should bring in more people from Norway."

That to me is different than just saying a country is a shithole; it's seems to me that the logical conclusion is that not only is the country a shithole, but that the people coming here from those countries are not on an equal level as Norwegians. Which to me smells at least a little bit racist.

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___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

The problem isn't really whether Pres Trump is or isn't racist. Really, I don't care, there have been plenty of racist Presidents (and PM's in Canada, and PM's in Britain, and so forth). Some of them have been good Presidents overall, some not. What matters is whether the policies being promoted are racist or not, and the clarity with which those policy agendas are promoted by the President.

So when he says he doesn't want people from shithole countries, (but wants people from places like Norway), and wants a merit based system, makes me wonder what the "merit points" in a Trump immigration system will look like.

I think a merit based system is actually not a bad idea, as long as the implementation of such a system is good. I think it's harder than Trump thinks it is. Canada has such a system, but then we also take in a good number of refugees from shithole countries.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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Maybe not, but when will you be moving to the south side of Chicago? Or, Baltimore...? There are other 'shit holes' right here in this country you can move to and save them. If you feel passionate about it, do something.

Greg

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If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020

If a black person referred to those countries as shitholes, we wouldn't think anything of it.

But a white person uses the same language and it's racist. Because everything a white person says that can possibly be construed as racist, is. Not only have we turned "racist" into the most vile epithet of our lexicon, but we've also created a presumption that all white people are racist. Makes me want to puke.

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Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Why not? I was talking with a Syrian refugee the other day (he arrived here in mid December) helping him furnish his new place with donations. He was a very nice guy, I'd have no problem with him living in our house.

The refugees are, by and large, good people who have been through some awful shit.

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I don't think you're any more or less likely to get a shitty house guest from a shit hole country than from, say Norway.

I actually think it's strange to think if you took in someone from say Haiti or whatever constitutes a shit hole of a country, that you'd expect that person to be less than desirable for some reason.

ummm, no one on this thread is talking about it being racist to refer to the shithole country as a shithole.

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I don't think it's necessarily racist. I don't know if President Trump is racist or not, but favoring immigrants from a wealthy industrialized Western country over those from a poorly educated poverty stricken country mired in tribal war isn't necessarily racist. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with race.

Whatever you think of Pres Trump's immigration ideas, he's been fairly consistent in saying that he wants to allow immigrants who don't pose a security threat and who contribute to our economy. It's not a stretch to believe that he thinks poor uneducated immigrants from countries that are hotbeds of terrorist training and tribal and ethnic wars might not fit those requirements.

Doesn't mean he thinks blacks are inferior to whites, which, since we all seem to have forgotten, is closer to what "racism" actually is.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

When all my liberal elite, bleeding heart, currently screaming racism, liberal friends start Instagramming vacation pictures of their trips to Haiti, Somalia, Sudan, etc. we can begin to discuss Trump's statement as racist. There is a reason people don't vacation there, they are shitholes. It is a fact. So by visiting nearby countries (i.e., the DR, St. Lucia, countries in Africa that have good safaris) but not others, they are either as racist as they say the President is, or they once again can't handle a true statement.

He is doing something about it. He is proudly wearing his BLM button.

And that's problem #1.
People from shithole countries coming here is the whole point of America.

Sure, some of my ancestors were rich Brits who came here 400 years ago, but most of them came here when their home countries could be described as shitholes. Ireland in the 1840s? 15% of the people starved to death. Hesse and Westphalia in the 1840s and 50s? All the wars of German unification weren't pretty either.

I think one of the points people are making is just because they are shitholes the President of the United States doesn't need to actually say that. It would be like the popular kid at the playground standing up and saying "Hey Everyone!!! See that kid over there? They are really ugly". They may be ugly but do you NEED to say that? It isn't going to help anyone.

And there will always be people who are overly offended and jump to calling people racists just becasue they don't like what some said.

What is racist about classifying a country as a shithole?

Is it what I want my President to be saying, whether behind closed doors or not? No, he's an embarrassment and this seems to happen daily. But this idea that it's RACIST to call a country a shithole? Give me a break, people are trying to turn everything done by a Republican - and especially by this President - as a racist act and it's ridiculous.

I went to India for work two years ago, and almost everyone I told reacted with some version of 'gross I'd never want to go there'. And guess what? Most of it WAS gross, there were beautiful parts and some real nice, modern hotels and business centers but outside the very newest buildings the rest I saw was a shithole...in fact I saw a few people literally shitting in fields during my daily commute. I couldn't drink the water or eat any food outside of modern restaurants or my hotel, there were thousands and thousands of people living in slums all around the city I stayed in, I saw hundreds of scared, emaciated dogs roaming the streets uncared for, and during the time I was there I visited a few homes of people I worked with--IT professionals who make very good money in India--and I couldn't believe how they lived: no refrigerators, walls and floors crumbling, windows cracked or missing, almost no furniture...and I saw a 'good', modern part of the country. I loved it, loved the people, and in talking about the country with people I'd never have called it a shithole because there's a better way to present it, BUT it is a shithole. So is Haiti. How is that RACIST?

EDIT: and now I'm seeing it's more about not wanting the PEOPLE from those shithole countries. I can understand why that's different. I do think there should be a merit based system and we should be looking at needs in this country when accepting immigrants, people with real talent and drive, coming here for opportunity to do better and not just to escape poverty.

Yeah, I'm not convinced he meant it in a racist way; I'm just saying I don't think that it takes "making a pretzel out of logic" to reach the conclusion that he may have, especially given some of his past comments.

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___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

Yeah, that doesn't smell good. The seeds of a shithole lie in the culture. We actually want people who do not want to participate in that culture and make their lives better. Why would we want people who want to leave an awesome place like Norway?

LOL! My bad. It must be that living in Cary (Containment for Relocated Yankees), otherwise known as Whitelandia, for the last 15+ years has skewed my view.

BTW, technically, I'm not from "the North", I moved here from New Mexico.

-
I think of Trump as the Estelle Getty character on Golden Girls; largely without the thought filter that most of us (and pretty much every politician) has. Whether it's nature or nurture that got him here makes little difference, but it's destined to keep his time in office controversial.
Another interesting aspect of this is that he did say it behind closed doors, but it was leaked to the press. That's one of the costs of being such a dislikable douche. Kind of like everyone around Lance doing drugs like Lance, but him being the one who gets taken off at the knees, booted from sanctioned racing, results stripped, etc. One reason he got the bigger hammer was because he was such an incredible ass to so many. So it is with Trump.

Maybe Trump is saying the United States should exclude immigrants from shithole countries in Africa by using a point system like Canada
http://canadaimmigrants.com/...source-country-2015/

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Why do you guess that?

I must have missed the "and you will never ever change" part.

My liberal elite, bleeding heart physician cousin is currently in Haiti for her annual two week volunteer medical clinic work. She's been posting photos on Facebook all week. Today's her birthday, too.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Maybe. But I wonder who's going to look at the link to confirm that Canada is, actually excluding immigrants from shithole countries?

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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I really should get better at this.

---

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

One thing I take notice of while traveling internationally to 'sh*thole' countries is that I see a lot more kids from Europe and Australia in these places. When I say kids, I mean college age without their parents.

So if I agree that I would prefer more people from Norway does that make me a racist? I think it makes sense that getting people from countries with stronger education and more likely to integrate into our culture does make sense. Now whether a bunch of folks from Norway are looking to immigrate to the US is another story entirely.

I'm not planning to move to Norway either. And yes, Trumphole is a racist.

You must be pretty disappointed then to see that the spineless orange blobfish is now denying that he ever made that "true statement".

You realize things have changed since the 1840's. We are now a country of 300 million. In the past, we had a wide open country with little population. And, those new immigrants were not entitled to any public assistance.

So, what is your preferred immigration policy -- just let anyone in? STUPID. I want an immigration policy like Switzerland, New Zealand, and most other prosperous democracies. Not everyone gets to be an American --- we should be at least somewhat selective.

But, once again, Trump is his own worst enemy [yes, he has a defective personality]. Saying ***hole when talking about other countries is not very Presidential. He should not speak in public without a teleprompter. Also, his tweets should be censored by a political decorum proctor.

The problem with your statement is that in a "good" merit-based system, the country of origin shouldn't really matter all that much compared to the other factors about that individual. what's their education, employment history, are their skills in demand in the US? etc etc....

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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My SIL is from one of those African countries. Smart, talented and a quality person.

Trumphole's comments basically said 'we don't want immigrants from poor black countries, we want them from developed white ones'.

There are two problems with that "sh!thole countries" Trump statement.

1. There a tacit implication that the people from "sh!thole countries" are "sh!thole people" when they arrive in the USA.

2. For a sitting president to vocalize that about other nations, particularly one's that have generally been supportive of the USA, is idiotic. Its the type of foreign policy management you would expect from an angy, tempestuous teenager not the president of the USA. Its more than embarrassing - its deeply harmful. Sure, Haiti or Congo are not powerful enough to leverage this on their own, but the diplomatic corps of China, Russia, Iran, Brazil, etc. will leverage these types of 'faux pas' in their favor.

Edit: there is a third problem. Trump is now denying he said this. So the third problem is that when he realizes he really f()cked up, he lacks the balls to own up to his mistake. "Sorry, I was wrong" does not appear to be in his vocabulary.

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Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's

Thanks but I have no desire to vacation in Norway.

-
As long as you realize you're imputing the meaning. Maybe he meant just "poor" countries, or just "black" countries that we should not favor, or maybe he meant we want only the best immigrants, ie with money and education. Who knows?

Stick with the identity politics, they've gotten your party so far lately.

Can anyone on here imagine what FDR called some of the countries we associated with in WW2? The countries on Durbin's list are shitholes. They are run by third world criminals, aided by the United Nations and American policies that have dumped billions into these countries only to see the money put into the pockets of the leadership and their friends. Trump is a lot of things, but his comment about these countries was SPOT ON. The problem is the left and the media are once again playing politics, and Trump isn't. He'll win this battle too.

I think that's the OP's entire point. Maybe I'm confused.

Did you read the OP and the title of the thread?

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

There are plenty of lazy, entitled Norwegians you wouldn't want loving in the US and a ton of hard working, lovely people from Africa who would do anything for a shot at relative freedom of the US.

Just because people happen to be born in to shitty circumstances doesn't mean they should be excluded from a chance at living in the west.

As usual, Trump's remarks are a crude, sweeping generalization that makes little sense. Racist? Probably not. Stupid? Absolutely. That's Trump's forte.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

This also jives nicely with ending TPS for 3 different Central American countries. I was with him that the TPS had gone beyond temporary. But now his motives are clear. He simply doesn't want people like that here.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

I wonder if you could use that argument to repeal 2A as well: "hey, the country has changed since we needed muskets to defend ourselves from government"

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Yeah, there's also 2 pages of discussion since then, but fair enough. I'll amend to "almost no-one"...

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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Take out the words "black" and "white" and I think you're correct. I don't know your SIL's race, but if she is black, educated, English speaking, and employed she would be far more welcome under any merit-based immigration system than someone who is white, uneducated, non-English speaking, and unemployed. Which means, as hard as it is for some of you to accept, RACE isn't the issue.

And this is what makes those with Trump Derangement Syndrome so pathetic. They'll use pretzel logic to twist anything he says into racism.

This is what I don't understand. The President of the U.S goes and publicly calls other countries shitholes, and his defenders knee jerk reaction is to defend him and label anyone who deems it inappropriate as people with Trump Derangement Syndrome.

The office of the President used to be seen as lofty and the person holding the position revered and respected, Now, many people seem to be perfectly fine with his adolescent comments.

It really is difficult to understand and has nothing to do with TDS although I'm sure that will be used against me.

No, your post probably makes you a socialist ;).

Do you really want to go there? Just what the Lavender room needs --- another gun control debate.

My understanding is that Trump specifically mentioned Haiti and Africa as places where he didn't want immigrants from, and Norway as one that he did.

The optics are poor.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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Not replying to anyone in particular.

I have read several headlines about liberal media members acting upset at what Trump said. I bet that many of them would have said the same thing if they were told that they were being sent to those countries for an assignment.

As to the comment. I think it is possible to call those countries "shitholes" without implying that the citizens are shitholes as well. However, his comment <edit is in poor taste and should not have been said> and was such that people could interpret the remark as they have. Though some of the same people would be making excuses if it had come from the mouth of Bill Clinton or Obama.

Most career politicians know that they have to choose their words carefully, and it becomes second nature for them as they know that one misspoken word or phrase could end their aspirations. Trump obviously doesn't care about such things.

"Saying ***hole when talking about other countries is not very Presidential. "

Replying to you but not picking on you specifically.

See, actual people don't even like typing it out. This is beyond not very presidential. People got offended and said it lacked presidential decorum when Obama put his feet on his desk. Oh, those were the days.

If this was a single anecdote it would be one thing. But this exact kind of behavior happens over and over. Among the incidents not already mentioned above. There were fine people marching with the KKK. The Mexican/rapist comment to kick off his campaign. The argument with Australia over taking refugees. Untold numbers of comments around the wall. Ending TPS for 3 different Central American countries. Hell, I've lost track by now.

If you had someone in your life who had done all of these things you know exactly what you'd think of them and how you would describe them.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Trump defenders are a bunch of snowflakes.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

this would be my position as well. Very well stated.

They simply want to #MAGA and should be considered for POTUS since they have the balls to say it out loud and do something about it? if one could look at things objectively, it is truly amazing what people will put up with when considering if the ends justify the means. That goes every which way of course. EastAsia is winning.

Percentage of US citizens with college degrees: 33%
Percentage of Nigerian immigrants with college degrees: 43%

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Trumps record on racism speaks for itself and I think most people who have half a brain realize he is among many other things clearly a racist - as in he judges, differentiates, and discriminates based on race, and surrounds himself with people with a similar record. Plenty of evidence to back that up.

Putting that aside, the question of whether our immigration policies should take into consideration the wealth of the immigrant's home country is the root issue with the comment. I feel strongly that individual merits outweigh nationality, and individual merits can include humanitarian considerations as well as "what can you do for us". Trump seems to be directly stating that Scandinavians are not only more desirable that Africans, but furthermore we only should accept the most desirable. I have a hard time determining a logical defense for such a statement.

And then he lies about even saying it....mental age of about a 4 year old.

Trump is NOT racist. He simply stated (using his best words) that immigration policy should favor whites.
Sheesh.

They are. But that doesn't make it racist. Racism is saying: No blacks allowed, because they're black. Saying no poor, uneducated, unemployed, non-English speaking people allowed isn't racist, even if that means fewer black people will qualify (have no idea if it means that or not). It's equally racist to say you don't qualify based on merit, but we're going to let you in just because of your race. A white person who is a drain on society is the same drain as a black person. Race just isn't an issue here.

Everyone is focussing on the "shit hole" part of the statement and skipping the fact that he doesn't want immigrants from there.


The LATTER part is what makes it racist. Plenty of doctors, scientists, and business owners have come from shit hole countries. Immigration should be about WHO is coming here, not the quality of the country they came from.



Now before a bunch of you knuckle draggers accuse me of calling you racists because you're white, I'm out of here.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

OK. Who's talking about letting people in based on their race?

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Son in Law. Father of my grandchildren and a great father and husband. From one of those middle African countries. Educated in the US with his Phd. Same for his father and his brother. He and his brother are recent U.S. citizens via the lottery. His father returned to the African country.

Trumphole's comments were that he didn't want people from shithole countries like Haiti and in Africa and wanted more from Norway. There are two denominators in that statement. Undeveloped vs. developed. Black vs. white. You choose which or both of them were at play. I think based on the numerous instances of statements he has made that this one had a racial element and tone to it.

I'd have to say that kleenex can count coup with this post. Lefty challenge thrown down, lefty picks up gauntlet and scores.

Yo klehner, can I pls refer to you by the "kleenex" moniker? That spellcheck story really was funny. As a result, your posts now get much more attention because of that story. So it is kinda net gain. This paragraph is a sarcasm and derision free zone.

Re. immigration policy of Switzerland. I read the other day that the Swiss are passing some law that says if you, as a refugee spend time on Welfare, you're not eligible for Citizenship until you pay the $$ back. We ought to have a far easier road for prospective immigrants both to come here, and to also become citizens. But lets have a big carrot and a big stick associated with citizenship. Something that will seriously motivate immigrants to become citizens.

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Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Seems like this is the reasonable person's viewpoint. Deviations start from here.

If using that makes you happy, go to town.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

TIL I learned that the media cannot use the s word unless it is a quote of a public person using it as per FCC rules. One of the reasons the media LOVES THIS STORY.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

That is essentially how I see it. Perhaps he didn't mean it that way, but it seems to me that it's fairly reasonable to conclude that he did.

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

No, that's generally Finding Freestyle's job.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Thanks - I was wondering that. It didn't seem to make sense that they would not say the word SHIT, or our they would put "S***" on the screen, but would then say and write shithole.

No, racism is judging an individual to have certain qualities based on preconceived notions of the race the person belongs to.

• "I think all Asians are good at math. He's Asian, therefore he must be good at math."
• "I think all white people think loud black people are uppity. You're white, therefore you must think all loud black people are uppity."
• "I think all Irish people are drunks. He's Irish, therefore he must be a drunk."

We're all racist in some manner because that's human nature; we always judge others based on what we think we know about the characteristics we see. Ideally, we're self-aware enough to understand that that instinctive rush to judgment is not based on what the individual is actually presenting to us, and we don't jump to those conclusions.

Trump isn't self-reflecting enough to check his gut instinct. He believes his gut is preternaturally accurate, so when he says "people from shithole countries" shouldn't be allowed into the US, it's unlikely that he's considered that his presuppositions of a country may not apply to the individuals from that country.

WNYC radio (public radio) this morning indicated they can't say the word per FCC regulations. At least one longtime host said that.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I was reading through the first 20 or so posts and was amazed at how that somehow slipped though the discussion. Rather than address the clear and objectionable substance of the policy proposal (and make no mistake, this was a policy discussion), the ball washers pounced on the anti-Trumpers' criticism of the mildly offensive sound byte.

I mean, it's not that Trump is a racist, it's just that he doesn't want Africans or Haitians coming to the United States, and would prefer that the U.S. be populated by people from places like Norway instead. Construing that as racism is just pure TDS!

We can debate the merits of a merit-based system, but let's not pretend he's suggesting anything other than that African and Haitians, as populations, are inherently undesirable, while white northern Europeans should be given top consideration.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

No longer amazed, and no longer surprised. That's been the modus operandi for about a year.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Nope.

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

But South Park can say it 162 times and write it another 38 in a single episode. It is an interesting world we live in.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Couldn't resist an attempt at insulting people, huh?

As to the rest of your comment. Do people really think that he opposes doctors, scientists and other hard working professionals and skilled persons from those countries? I can't imagine that he would as they do contribute positively to our society and he should be aware of that. I assume, and could be wrong, that he was thinking about the people who come from those countries and then leach off of society either by committing crimes or by coming here and living off of public assistance. Do you want those people to come here?

Is it fair to say that people from those countries have a less positive contribution to our society versus immigrants from a place like Germany or France (Hey Francois!).

That being said. I dislike Trump and it is leaving a sour taste in my mouth offering possible defenses for this stupid and insensitive statement.

Nope. Immigration is not a right.

And so off topic. But good try.

No one, not even Trump when he mentions he wants people from, for example, Norway. And no one is talking about keeping people out because of race either, not even Trump when he mentions he doesn't want people from, for example, Haiti. It's that simple. Thanks.

maybe, but that's not what was reported that he said.

Nice pretzel, by the way.

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I'm guessing that the concept of doctors, scientists and other hardworking and skilled persons being from these countries is foreign to him. He's probably had zero exposure to such people in his life, and they certainly don't showcase them on Fox News.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Exactly. Saying that he wants people from Norway and not from Haiti and Africa isn't in the least bit possibly racist.

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We certainly know how careful the media is about accuracy when reporting on Trump.

Pretzel? Nope. Trump is a blowhard, but I can't imagine that he really would oppose hardworking professionals from those countries just because they are from there. If I am wrong, then he is an idiot. Correction, if I am wrong, then he is even a bigger idiot than I thought.

Here's an example of an immigrant from a shithole country:

https://www.google.com/...qhudof6RG0Ui9at45X-K

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“Read the transcript.”

You are spot on (he he he).

That's kind of what the whole problem with prejudice is. If my coworkers, or former roommate, or uncle put on an application all of these amazing qualities, you aren't supposed to gloss over them and assume that they are not worthy of becoming Americans because they are from shit hole countries.

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This.

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"Your Attitude Determines Your Altitude."

Probably not, but his comment implies that he doesn't think there are hardworking educated professionals from those countries. So if you are talking about policy decisions, then that "merit based" system he wants to have implemented may automatically disqualify individuals from "shithole countries", even though they would be more productive members of society than some other individuals coming from Norway.

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Given the choice between a white drug addict with HIV from Norway versus a black chemical engineer from Haiti, who do you think Trump would choose to allow legal immigration into this country?

the point isnt that the norwegian drug addict would be coming, its that the chem eng from Haiti might not even get the chance.

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Good on her, that's noble work and she's a better person than I. My conservative well-meaning NP cousin has an annual two-week volunteer trip to Haiti, she went as a part of her masters program at BC the year after the earthquake and has been going every year since.

That said, doesn't that lend credence to the idea that it's a shithole country though? People from the US, Canada, EU nations don't vacation there, what they do is give loads of time, money and resources to these impoverished, down-trodden nations because they don't have the established infrastructure, talent, technology to do these things themselves. People are uneducated, malnourished, their infrastructure is shit, technology is minimal to nonexistent, no health standards.

I think we absolutely SHOULD look at the demographic balance of our immigrant population, and we shuold be promoting immigrants that bring some talent and education to the country along with those fleeing impoverished shitholes.

This chart shows immigrant demographics from 1960 to today. It has skewed far too heavily to poor nations and needs a reblancing, imo.
http://www.nationsonline.org/...orld/third_world.htm

"Is it fair to say that people from those countries have a less positive contribution to our society versus immigrants from a place like Germany or France (Hey Francois!). "


Who are "people from those countries?"

We recently hired a bunch of people. How much weight do you think education, skills, and personality played in our hiring process? How much weight do you think the kind of town they grew up on played in our hiring process? (hint: the latter isn't even put on the resume).

I don't need a Norwegian employee, or someone from a good neighborhood. I need a computer programmer that we can work with, regardless of what kind of shit hole they may or may not have grown up in.



Same goes for citizenship.

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You still haven't explained why you think we wouldn't want refugees from those "shithole" countries living in our homes.

But not because he’s black, which was the point of this thread.

That "wealth of the immigrant's home country" language makes it sound like cause and effect have become confused. Poor countries aren't shitholes because they are poor. They're poor countries because they are shitholes. Their people can't get their act together. If a country can't put together a cultural tradition of rule of law and honest civil service, the country will always be poor.

That said, I'm all from immigrants from shithole countries. In my experience, immigrants from ever damned country on the planet works a helova lot harder than the bottom 3rd of Americans.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that people who have much fondness for shithole countries should consider slowing immigration to the US. The folks immigrating from the shitholes are inevitably the folks with the most moxie, so the country just gets more and more screwed up because their stars all come to the US to drive taxis and open convenience stores.

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"Given the choice between a white drug addict with HIV from Norway versus a black chemical engineer from Haiti, who do you think Trump would choose to allow legal immigration into this country? "


If you are Trump's base, you'd want the former.


That's the rub. A white mouth breather doesn't want to measure people by their merits, because that puts him at the low end of society. He wants to measure people by what ever factor can make himself feel better.


"What do you call a black doctor?" was a common joke told by my white trash neighbors growing up in the 80s. Think about it.

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You sir, are a good dude. I salute you.

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

He does oppose those people coming from "shithole" countries. He doesn't even want to entertain their application. His statements sound as if he isn't concerned about who enters the country as long they come from the right locations.

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TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

Neither, the black chemical engineer from Haiti would not be considered, based on his statements.

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Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

I don't think the doctors, scientists, and business owners are all that pertinent. We have programs to allow immigration based on special skills, like the ability to contribute to science, medicine, or business. The issue at hand during the discussion between the President and Congressmen was focused, it seems, on immigration issues like DACA and chain and lottery immigration, as well as programs that provide "temporary" status for victims of disaster (which temporary status should have ended years ago). Those programs do not necessarily ensure that we get immigrants who benefit the country in terms of skill set, and allow for more ability for low skill, low education immigrants to enter the country.

In other words, Pres Trump didn't say that we don't want doctors, scientists and business people from those countries. He essentially asked why we want to allow chain and lottery immigration of unskilled uneducated immigrants from countries that foster terrorism, are steeped in tribal and ethnic conflicts, and don't have cultural traditions of stable democratic government.


Oh, and no, that LATTER part doesn't make it racist, unless you assume he doesn't want those immigrants because he thinks their race makes them inferior and not valuable as immigrants, which I'm not sure anyone has demonstrated to be the case.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Not really, no.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

no, because he's from a "shithole country" which happens to be predominately black.

I'm not claiming to know whether Trump is or isn't racist. However, he stated that he didn't want people from Haiti and Africa, and wanted people from Norway. Whether he's racist or not, its a terrible basis for policy.

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Congratulations on probably the most naive post in the entire thread.

"95% of Haitians are of predominantly African descent. The remaining 5% of the population is primarily mulattoes, Europeans, Asians and Arabs. Hispanic residents in Haiti are mostly Cuban and Dominican. About two thirds of the Haitian population live in rural areas." -https://en.wikipedia.org/...emographics_of_Haiti

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This is all just a clever marketing ploy, so that when people Google "Trump shithole", Yelp reviews of Trump properties are no longer the top result.

We're getting our panties in a wad over the comments being "not presidential". It's kind of a silly point. These were not public comments. Almost all the presidents in my lifetime had reputations for coarse tirades in private. So why are we holding Trump to a different standard?

Of course Trump says boorish things in private. For chrissakes he says boorish things in public. Are we so hungry for more things to criticize about him that we must raise the bar of presidential behavior expectations? Things come out of his mouth that would make the average person cringe every day. Surely at some point that behavior will no longer be screaming at us from every headline. Is it worth the energy to shriek fresh outrage every day over some stupid thing that comes out of his mouth?

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

That made me chuckle.

Mexico has some nice places.
Beautiful mountains, beaches, historic villages, nice, honest, hard working people.

What makes Mexico a “shit-hole” is the trash, the government corruption...... LIARS and SHYSTERS at the highest levels of society.

What makes Mexico a shit-hole?
It is people like Trump!!!

I think what everyone is trying to say is it's just a coincidence he picked the blackest of black and whitest of white areas to make a comparison.

All I got is Doctor. Kinda like what do you call the guy who graduates last in his med school class. And you know you are a redneck when your truck is worth more than your house.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Pretty low acceptance rate for Haitians in Canada.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/haiti-border-crossers-canada-irregular-1.4414781

That is a question that is worth consideration. Many first world countries who could educate their own doctors, computer programers etc are welcoming in the best talent from third and second world countries that desperately need those people.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Yeah, that is Dave's schtick, but he has it all wrong.

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This.

If you had to draw players, coaches, and front office personnel out of a hat for your team would you draw New England Patriots or Cleveland Browns?
If you chose to draw from the New England Patriots does that mean you think that EVERY Patriot is better than EVERY Brown?
If someone was choosing to draw personnel from the Browns over drawing personnel from the Patriots would it be wrong to question that strategy?

Threads like this are just a litmus test for TDS. Well, they could be a litmus test for political hack opportunists too, but I trust that most people here are truthful about their feelings.

So, in other words, he wants to implement the Canadian policy for immigration.

So ... what you are saying is all Canadians are racists ...

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Basically, Trump wants to implement the Canadian immigration point system, where applicants are giving scores based on things like their wealth, country of origin, language(s) spoken, skills, and abilities.

I did not realize the entire country of Canada lacked Christians and those without compassion and empathy.

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http://www.immigration.ca/who-qualifies-for-canadian-permanent-residence-skilled-worker-immigration/

Qualified applicants are evaluated against six factors to determine their eligibility for immigration to Canada. Applicants must obtain a total of 67 points out of a possible 100 in order to qualify. The selection factors are:

• Education;
• Language;
• Employment experience;
• Age;
• Arranged employment;
• Adaptability;

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And you get to call them mouth breathing, knuckle dragging, ditto-heads. As long as your not talking about a "real person" it's all good.

In other words - what I said.

Canada is doing a great job keeping out the undesireables. But, when Trump wants to adopt the same model, he is a racist.

O ... k ....

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where is country of origin in our list of criteria?

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What I don't get is people not knowing that he did not say it publicly, it was in a closed door meeting with some congress critters. Tactless, tasteless, and Trumpian, but not public, and not the type of thing we don't see reported about many if not most presidents, the difference being it's usually after they are out of office. It was leaked, back to my Lance analogy, and the fact that he is hated by so many on both sides, and I would not even bet it was a dem that leaked it.

Not really.

In the list of 6 factors Jason listed out from the link, "wealth" and "country of origin" (the factor relevant to this thread) from your list aren't included.

They obviously don't mean all of them are mouth breathing, knuckle dragging, ditto-heads? Can't you see that?

What I said was "My guess is you wouldn't want a refuge from a "shithole" country living in your house, but I don't think that makes you a racist because I don't think you're considering the race of the person when you make that judgement. "

You're emphasizing the wrong part of the statement. If you do want refugees from "shithole" countries living in your house then more power to you. But you're not less racist than the person who doesn't because I don't think race would play into that decision making process for most people, certainly not for the person to whom my comment was addressed. Are you saying he's a racist if my guess is correct? Cuz I don't think he is.

HA HA HA HA!

Really???????

Education, language, employment experience, and adaptability. You don't see those are pretexts for country of origin???

HA! HA! HA! HA!

WOW. JUST, WOW!!!


Now I have to go to the TIL thread and post the things I learned today: Canadians are racist and not too bright ...

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Uh-huh ... See my response to Jason, above.

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It takes either a shit-ton of balls or a plethora of ignorance for our Canadian friends to criticize anything having to do with immigration.

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right.

We all know that there are no English or French speaking Africans with PhDs and employment experience. That should be obvious.

edit - did you read the link to see what the detailed criteria are?

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You believe those are the individuals about whom Trump is addressing? Really?

And, by the way, how magnanimous of you Canadians to permit English and French speaking PhDs into your country! You truly are the epitome of compassion and empathy!

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hasn't stopped them on this or any other subject Trump related in the last 12 months

I see you have taken up the mantle of carrying Trumps balls in Duffy's absence. How magnamious of you.

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Do people really think that he opposes doctors, scientists and other hard working professionals and skilled persons from those countries? I can't imagine that he would as they do contribute positively to our society and he should be aware of that.

But Trump would assume that the doctors, scientists and other hard working professionals aren't REALLY professionals because they come from shithole countries so their qualifications aren't legitimate.

Trump's a jerk and anyone who defends this should stop and take a good look at all the things he has said over the past year and then ask why they continue to support him.

that's horribly ugly language you are employing. Hopefully you don't follow up with weak minded or sniveling waste of space. Cuz that would really be over the top.

Question: do you think its easier or harder to become a PhD if you are below the poverty line as 80% of Haitians are?

Harder.

What's your point? That Canada is selective about who comes in? No one is disputing that.

Country of origin isn't an explicit criteria though.

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It takes either a shit-ton of balls or a plethora of ignorance for our Canadian friends to criticize anything having to do with immigration.

this is the point[/quote]

JSA is still pissed because he wanted to move to BC and his application was rejected.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

[/quote]
it's your country. do what you want. All I'm saying is that a merit-based system is fine, but the devil is in the details. I'm also not claiming ours is perfect, by any stretch.

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it's your country. do what you want. All I'm saying is that a merit-based system is fine, but the devil is in the details. I'm also not claiming ours is perfect, by any stretch.[/quote]
thanks. Same to you!!

I have not pursued this yet, but, you are absolutely correct - I would be VERY butt hurt if I were finally able to move to BC and was rejected! I make no secret my love of that area.

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I cannot refute what you say in the first sentence. As much as I dislike and distrust him, I still probably give him too much credit.

I don't think many people here are defending his statement as most have acknowledged that it was insensitive at best. But, I think it is possible to try to refute that the statement is racist without supporting him. I can tell you that I don't support him. I would be happy if he resigned today or was kicked out of office.

Yet my son-in-law is from one of those countries, has a Phd, is fluent in both English and French, and relied on the lottery to gain employment here. Trump apparently would have kept him out simply because of -- either the conditions in his country or the predominant skin color -- weren't as good as Norways or the predominant skin color wasn't as desirable as Norways.

Riiiiiiight. And, Trump wants to send my Mexican family back across the boarder ...

On what are you basing your assumption?

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JSA has become very good at creating false equivalencies.

He's arguing that judging a person on their merits is just as bad as judging them based on their country of origin because, as a result, fewer people from those countries will get accepted. That might actually apply if there merits that they were being judged on were irrelevant to the needs of the country and only served to prevent certain people from entering. For example, if the merit was "ability to get sun burned."

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So what happens when a liberal gets in office (watch Hunger Games for a worse case liberal scenario) and guns are banned, confiscated (except for the elite) and when we want to rise up we have nothing but sticks.

So, you are referencing a fantasy movie, and you've bought into one of the two great gun myths as your argument?

How many guns did Clinton in his eight years, or Obama in his eight years, ban or confiscate? Got your bug-out bag packed?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Luckily, Obama was too focused on implementing Sharia Law and didn't manage to get the gun confiscation thing over the line. Sad!

Do you think it is more or less likely to reflect his true feelings when said behind closed doors?

Body of work has been in the news here lately. Apply it to Trump. What do you come up with on this topic?

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

We'll obviously have to ask O'Reilly, Murdoch, et all if we can borrow their guns.

Didn't you see what happened in Red Dawn?

Forget about what we'll have available when we want to rise up. We need our guns to stop the Red Army!

(Back to Trump is
a) dumb
b) racist
c) insane
d) all of the above)

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

This.

It's also possible to try to defend Young Earth Creationism without being an Evangelical Christian, but takes the kind of mental gymnastics that only people who are highly invested in the outcome would even bother to attempt.

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There are about 500 million+ people from all over Africa alone that speak English. So language is a pretty shitty pretext if that's how you see it.

i don't think the issue is that he's calling countries shitholes that are, objectively, shitholes. i've lived in some shitholes and can definitely say that they exist: bad infrastructure, corruption, endemic disease, etc.

as i see it, the issue is that he's impugning everyone who comes from those shitholes, purely because they come from shitholes (which is the very definition of prejudice). the problem is the countries, not the people.

-mike

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This seems obvious to most. Consistently surprised by the ignorance on this forum.

It takes either a shit-ton of balls or a plethora of ignorance for our Canadian friends to criticize anything having to do with immigration.

The difference of course is not that Trump wants educated people who can contribute to the country as much as he wants to ban certain religions and people from shithole countries. That's really what the Canadian's are objecting too.

Trump is making some people so love sick they can't seem to see the obvious.

Do you have to work hard to be this stupid, or are you a natural?

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Barry - it has been established LONG ago that you are utterly incapable to drawing an analogy. In fact, it would take most people a lot of time and effort to develop as poor an analogy as you are capable of proffering without a single hesitation. It is a gift. It is a worthless gift, but, a gift nonetheless.

There is absolutely no false equivalency here. Trump is saying - we do not want to bring into this country people who cannot contribute and will be a drain on resources. That is exactly the model employed by the Canadians. They are doing exactly what Trump is suggesting.

If you cannot see that, then you have been hit in the head WAY too many time with a foam sword while playing L.A.I.R.E.

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Yeah, but look how much Canadians are hated, eh. Do we really want to go down that road?

You have to be relevant to be hated.

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It takes people to create problems. It takes people to solve problems. It takes people to let problems linger. Ergo, it takes people to create shitholes. Countries have no agency without people. I thought it was clear that Trump was impugning an immigration strategy of randomly gathering from human cultural failure.

Edit: As I think about it, nature can create problems, too. However, my interpretation of "shithole" was the importance of the man-made component of the problems.

So taking the person who you think doesn't want refugees from shithole countries, why do you guess he doesn't want them? What do you "guess" is the basis for that decision?

I mean, you're not suggesting they don't want any refugees 'period' living in their house. You said you guess they wouldn't want refugees from those shithole countries living in their house? For what reason would they not want those particular refugees?

[/quote]
serious question. do you ever actually contribute a meaningful original thought to any discussion, or do you just wave some pom poms and slap the backs of the conservative ball washers here, with the odd snide remark to boot?

serious question. do you ever actually contribute a meaningful original thought to any discussion, or do you just wave some pom poms and slap the backs of the conservative ball washers here, with the odd snide remark to boot?[/quote]
I don't believe that is a serious question

"rhetorical" probably more accurate

probably.

done with you now. Too dangerous. Good luck