Guess I'm very insecure. I've known a few trans folks both M to F and F to M. I even worked with a "male" nurse who used to be female. Changed his name from Maureen to Maurice and kept on working at the same place during the transition. Nice people but I'll stick to non trans women thank you.

couldn't be as simple as hey...I don't like dicks!

Even my own is one more than I ever wanted to see, right?

This is where it goes off the rails.



Increasingly, it's not enough to accept trans people for who and what they are; if you don't recognize them as entirely Woman, no different from every other woman, you're transphobic and insulting.

This is why I hold the line on pronouns. Words mean things, and you don't get to redefine entire functional categories based on how you feel about being categorized.

I'm happy to oblige and not call a trans man "he" if he objects, but there's no onus on me or anyone else to categorize a trans male as "she." I think that's a pretty reasonable accommodation, on both sides.

---

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

No, it probably is that simple. I'm not a penis guy myself. I like (no, I LOVE) the wimmens. If you want to be a penis guy that's your own business, of course. It's just not for me.

But female-appearing TGs are still MEN, NOT WOMEN (and vice-versa), at least at this point in our ability to scientifically alter genetic codes and such. The second TGs stop taking the hormones they need to suppress their naturally born sex characteristics, they become MAN-like (or WOMAN-like) yet again. Duh.

But understanding that and explicating the fact of it is somehow "transphobic." This is a masterful use of language to Otherize hetero men and women and make them think that their homogametic or heterogametic setup is a detriment and not a fact of life, I think.

Also, it seems to me that certain advocacy groups among the far left are working overtime these days to convince people that "gender" as we know it is somehow dependent only on mental outlook rather than on the physical-mental structure that the particular presence of XX or XY chromosomes creates within us. That's profoundly silly, in my opinion, but supposedly sound social "science" (that in reality is neither sound, nor science) is generated seemingly daily that "proves" their point.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I think the #metoo'ers are generally savvy enough to avoid this scud missile. Not that they really overlap, anyway.



This is madness.

---

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Could he speak of the Pompatus of Love?

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Um, yeah, pretty much.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I'm so confused. As a big proponent of LGBT rights, I'm still confused by this. I've no problem with transgender folks, going so far to concede that there may very well be a sort of natural gap between what's in the physical parts and the brain chemistry, where one is truly possibly a man on the exterior but fully female in all other ways. We don't have the science to know this, but we haven't had the science to know a lot of things we later discovered were scientifically true....not to say that everyone who's trans fits into that bucket vs. the nurture bucket.

But that said, I also like women. A lot. And if I were to be single again I sure would like to know that someone I would possibly be entering into a relationship with would be fully capable of being what I'm completely attracted to, because no amount of dating and getting to know someone before hitting the sheets, only to find a wang staring me in the face, would suddenly make me overcome everything I like about women in the most basic biological sense. There are some things that just cannot be replicated in any other way, certain smells that are only the way they are when they're what they are, among other things.

I mean, as much as I like a grape flavored Jolly Rancher for what it is, it ain't a grape. And when I want to taste a grape, I want a grape. Or a nectarine.

I don't really have any problem with that advocacy to separate the idea of gender from the biology of sex. But when I'm dating someone as a straight dude, I'm attracted to someone whose gender matches their sex, and it's only fair to know that. It's a massive trust issue for a relationship and I don't see how these advocates cannot see that.

I overheard in Thailand once upon a time "there are no chicks with dicks, they're men with tits!"

I think it falls into the same trap of the fat acceptance movement. Sure, obese women can say they're beautiful and sexy as much as they want, but they don't pass the wood test with most sober men. Those men aren't discriminating by refusing to date obese women, and they're not suffering from a phobia of them. They just don't find them attractive as potential partners, hence do not date them.

As a side point, if a transgender person performs a sex act on a hetrosexual person, and said hetrosexual then discovers their partner is transgender and thus regrets the sex act, does it count as rape or sexual assault?

---

Swim. Overbike. Walk.

The post reminded me of a Horace and Pete episode (Louis CK's old show)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHrXtzYC0Jc

---

---

---

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Where does one stick the ultimate end of a date if you don't like the pooper?

Of course. I see it as similar to saying you're homophobic if you aren't attracted to people of the same sex. In their mind they may be a woman, but physically and more importantly in my mind they are not. If someone wants to label that transphobic, than have at it.

FIFY.

This is a tactic employed sporadically by the left, and I may be in that small minority that empathizes with their plight but is turned off even more so by that tactic.

Children brought to the United States by illegal immigrants are not Americans, or Citizens. I'd prefer that we do the sensible thing and streamline their path to citizenship, but saying they are because they feel like they are, or because they should be, doesn't make it so. Likewise, health care should be available to all Americans, within reason, and without devastating financial consequences for any citizen if they can't afford the tab. Maybe there's a convincing moral argument for making health care a right of citizenship, but as it stands, it's not. And saying so won't make it so, and it doesn't mean I'm a heartless bastard for acknowledging the way things are.

People's opinions of themselves and the world around them don't change the reality of that world. Endorsing those counterfactuals is indulging those delusions.

---

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Who is "the left"?

As far as we are aware, it's one person's misguided opinion (in our estimation). Using terms like "the left" or "the right" makes it sound like everyone who might identify with that side of the political spectrum got together and decided this was going to be a strategy. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the majority of people on "the left" wouldn't agree with this position, anymore than most on "the right" agree with the more odious statements about immigrants, homosexuals, etc. that you can find people on the "the right" making.

Regarding whether or not someone needs to disclose their trans status, yes, claiming that it's no one's business is a slim minority's position that may or may not have roots on one side of the political spectrum, and is controversial even among the LGBT community; but the broader subtext is pretty clear--that trans men are, in reality, women--and that fantasy has been indulged by the political left for quite some time now. As with health care being a right, as with children of illegal immigrants being Americans, and probably a host of other issues.

Arguing that something is, rather than should be, makes a more compelling argument for compliance and enforcement. It's an odious tactic that's rubbed me the wrong way since long before the effort to erase the distinction between trans people and the gender they would claim went mainstream.

---

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

This.

I would have a lot more respect and sympathy for the agenda if it was presented in a way that is based in reality. If you want to argue that transgenders are people with a diagnosed disorder, but that having a disorder doesn't make you less of a person, and that the best way to treat the disorder is to allow gender reassignment or allow the person to present themselves as whatever gender they like, and that transgenders shouldn't have fewer rights because of their disorder, I could have a decent discussion and healthy respect for that opinion.

But the argument that is being forced is that transgenders ARE the sex they "identify" with, and that's just a lie. A Caucasian who identifies as black is not actually black. A man who identifies as a woman is not actually a woman. A cat who identifies as a space shuttle doesn't actually orbit the planet. When did reality become so easily cast aside?

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

You're asking this in the Lavender Room? ;-)

I'm sorry. There are only two genders (with the very, very rare biological exception of when a person carries both XX and XY chromosomes) as far as medical science has determined. Anything else is a mental disorder. But that doesn't mean, as you point out, that we then have free rein to discriminate against or otherwise oppress those with these gender identification disorders.

Neither are we morally or legally required to either celebrate or accept, as you say, the instances when a man says that he identifies as a woman and that we must therefore, treat him as a woman, including having sex with him as a hetero male might have sex with a hetero female, or face the consequences for our refusal to do so. That way lies madness.

There's a difference between tolerance -- which we're all obligated to display -- and acceptance, which we're under no moral, legal or ethical obligation to evidence.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

That's a non-starter, unfortunately. Progressive philosophy is heavily invested in destigmatization, and characterizing transgenderism as a disorder, paradoxically, runs counter to that objective. Normalization is the end goal, and disorders are by definition undesirable, so even though it is by any reasonable definition a disorder, don't expect anyone in the modern LGBT advocacy camp to acknowledge it.

As I recall, conditions are only labeled disorders if they cause the individual distress and disfunction (paraphrasing DSM, here), so it would appear the tactic advances the strategy of normalizing transgenderism to the point that it ceases to be a disorder. Except, of course, that would require that we no longer recognize the distinction between men and women. That's a pretty substantial trade-off that, in my opinion, isn't worth the cost. Not to mention, entirely unnecessary.

Destigmatization, I think, stands a much better chance if left to time and changing cultural norms rather than imposing counterfactual definitions under threat of character assassination.

---

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

There's a raging debate within the female feminist community about these male-to-female TGs and whether they have any right to claim oppression as a woman (leaving aside any discrimination arising as a result of their trans status). It's gotten ugly on more than a few occasions.

As you've said, pronouns have a purpose and a genuine meaning. Saying a thing isn't a thing just because you don't like that it's a thing is a fantasy construct.

I have a friend whose son is in the pre-med track at the University of Virginia (sophomore year now). I've helped him with writing of papers and such in several of his classes (including a class last year in Hindu/Urdu poetry... I'm not kidding ;-).

This last semester, seeking an easy A (the class had a 94% A-granting rating on some website related to finding "easy-A classes"), he took a gender studies class ("Language and Gender"). The teaching assistant conducting the class, a woman, started out the class with the typical "Xer," "Xe" etc. rundown of "Choose your own pronoun" stuff and it descended from there. I helped him write his papers and even read the reading assignments he was given.

OMFG, but we're in trouble, sir. I consider myself a hired-gun and mercenary when it comes to writing stuff for just about anyone who can pay me, but if not for the fact his father was an old battle buddy of mine, I'd have ended up quitting it.

"Gender is a choice" was one two-pager he had to produce.

"Language is a construct used to force gender selection" was another two-pager.

And this was at UVA, so I imagine this is going on everywhere

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Hahahahaha! This is the only song I know of that has the word "pompatus" in it. I use this one and that song by Live -- "Lightning Crashes," which uses the word "placenta" in its lyrics -- to demonstrate that you can pretty much make a hit song up using almost any word in the dictionary as long as it's got a good hook. ;-)

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

What I don't understand is why people are so resistant to the idea that there is sex (i.e. your biology based on your genes, anatomy, hormones, etc) and there is gender (basically, the culturally constructed role you gain as a member of a given culture).

As you note, even sex isn't straight forward since people can be born with more or less than just 2 Xs, or an XY, and then you have the cases where genes are disrupted so chromosomes may appear normal but you end up with an XY female because the genes to turn the person into a male were missing or dysfunctional, or a masculinized female due to hormonal abnormalities during development.

Culturally in the west, the 2 typical sexes have aligned with two genders based on those sexes, but as I understand it other cultures have had more than two genders.

That being said, it doesn't really matter because this issue is about someone being a gender that doesn't match their sex.

So if you mean sex, say sex, if you mean gender, say gender, if you conflate the two as the same thing you're just as guilty of denying reality as the folks you are skewering.

Hahahahaha! I heard the same thing! ;-)

I think TGing is actually a profession over there -- there was a champion muay thai kickboxer who decided to become one -- and no one thinks twice about it. "Ladyboys" in English, "Kathoey" in Thai. You have to be really careful when you're out on the town and looking to score, as they say, that you're not picking up a ladyboy, if what you're really wanting is a natural female. ;-)

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Wait. Placenta?

And here I've been singing "hopeless center falls to the floor" all this time.

Synonyms, so whatever ;)

(Banhammer incoming, take cover!)

---

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Hahahahahaha! You got it right away!

Now, 'scuse me while I kiss this guy! ;-)

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

It seems to me that TG activists are making a self-refuting argument, in that they insist one's gender identity is irreversible while also saying that it's fluid, and that one's sex is irrelevant. In my opinion, the world of gender ideology defines one's life by saying to us that our sex distinctions aren't real, but are simply a "social construct" that must be erased in law.

In this regard, transgender law posits that EVERYONE'S sex is "assigned at birth." This means TG law isn't intended simply to protect the almost minuscule demographic of transgender persons who suffer discrimination. Instead, TG law imposes an ideology that applies to everybody, telling each of us that the fact of our physical sex isn't actually real and is only a figment of our imaginations.

TG activists seem to take the position that sometimes your imagination will align with your "assigned sex" (your genitalia), and in other cases it won't. At heart, this requires all of us to live in a fog about what it means to be human. If we were to accept such an illogical stance, there would be no common reality and no common humanity as well, because all of the laws that codify what the TG lobby refers to as "gender identity non-discrimination" reject the physical reality of a person's sex and thus reject all sex distinctions upon which all blood relations are also based.

As I and others here have observed, going down that path will take us straight to societal schizophrenia and other forms of madness.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Again, I think it is much easier to talk about if the terms sex and gender are used appropriately which is not to disagree that there is a degree of craziness involved by some activists.

I think it applies to so few people that the worry that the sky is falling is ridiculous, not to mention, what exactly are the consequences anyway?

The irony of all of this is that at no point in time has gender been less of a defining part of a person's life than it is today. When was the last time you went to do something and thought "oh no, can't do that, that's women's work" or something similar?

I usually change the station before it gets that far #ifuckinghatethatsong

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Well, it helps if you just make words up. Pompatus isn't actually a word. It's like singing Sussudio or Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.

Oddly pertinent to made up sex definitions, I suppose.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

---

--------------------------
The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

I once identify myself as a stud-muffin-stallion-in-the-sack but the women would look at me as if i'm delusional. The reason is now clear in the articles, they're insecure!

https://www.wsj.com/...-solution-1402615120 This link from the Wall Street Journal may interest you. Paul McHugh was chief of psychiatry there. Johns Hopkins was involved at the beginning of the movement to do sex reassignment surgery but stopped doing it because it didn't seem to be helping the patients.

According to what research that has been done something like 80 percent of children who have transgender feelings have spontaneous resolution. Yet we have children being given hormones prior to puberty so they are not put through the "trauma" of going through a normal process. Who of us didn't know a "tomboy" growing up? Is a Tomboy equivalent to transgendered female? I don't know. I knew several and they eventually assumed their "cis" gender and had kids and happy lives.

People with anorexia feel fat but they are not. We don't encourage them to embrace their feelings. Why do we do so now with people with trans gender feelings?

Unfortunately this issue has become intensely politicized and the likelihood of sane public and medical policy addressing these people and their problems seems to be getting less as time goes on. Does sex reassignment surgery help people with transgendered feelings ? It is likely any further research illuminating the subject will not be useful as it either won't get done or ifso and finds reassignment surgery is not helpful it will be suppressed.

---

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I'm in general agreement here. It seems as if, for some reason, a large part of society has decided that humoring the delusion is the appropriate treatment/response in this case. I'm not certain why, other than that there's a vocal minority willing to paint anyone who disagrees with that approach as insensitive, bigoted, etc, and they have somehow tied themselves into the same community as homosexuals, which gives them some top cover.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

We had a lot of contact with Thai exchange student through our Austrian one. She told be lady boys are very common in Thailand. They have mandatory military service and it seems to be a possible exit from that. I sure it is not the whole story one wonders what it is about Thai culture that makes it so common.

---

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I think the problem is that capitalism and science teaches us that biology is a commodity to be altered and consumed at will.

Yet, at the same time a huge amount of marketing and social pressure is targeted at specific gender identity.

So, on the one hand, we are supposed to embrace a world of gmo’s, gene therapy, plastics surgery and robotic body parts.

And in the other hand we are being told “that real men buy....” and “that real men should do .....”

Doctors are more responsible for this mess than anyone. It is a positive that a lot of studies seem to be questioning the long term effects of “giving the customer what they ask.”

Kind of reminds me of the Daily Show piece they did on "Sexual Racism"
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/ev2j0j/the-daily-show-with-trevor-noah-sexual-racism--when-preferences-become-discrimination

Now you can be racist and transphobic by your dating preferences!

Not only are they told to follow their feelings, but they're told it's a good idea to take cancer causing chemicals for the rest of their life and to cut off parts of their body and have different parts surgically attached.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed. Society has come a long way in terms of tolerance and support and understanding for gay people and I somewhat resent that they have thrown a "T" on the end of "LGB" in an attempt to co-opt that progress.

Agreed.


"Increasingly, it's not enough to accept trans people for who and what they are; if you don't recognize them as entirely Woman, no different from every other woman, you're transphobic and insulting.

This is why I hold the line on pronouns. Words mean things, and you don't get to redefine entire functional categories based on how you feel about being categorized.

I'm happy to oblige and not call a trans man "he" if he objects, but there's no onus on me or anyone else to categorize a trans male as "she." I think that's a pretty reasonable accommodation, on both sides. "

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

“Boys will be girls and girls will be boys- it’s a mixed up - muddled up - shook up world” Kinks

Just a point of clarification here. Are these people transgender that have not had a sex change in which case they would have a penis in which case it would seem absurd to expect a hetero sexual male to want to date them. Or are these people transgender with the sex change and all the correct bits? If the latter I could understand the argument. I would see it no different then dating a women and then finding out she was partially some race you didn't like and then suddenly you no longer liked her.

If a female has had all the surgical things done and appears as a female, acts like a female etc etc...well looks, walks and talks like a duck. If the female has a penis...well it's just not going to work.

The one outstanding issue I could see would be procreation. If you're seriously dating someone with expectations of having kids, would seem to be an important bit of information and reason to not date.

~Matt

I see what you did there.

At any rate, it’s mystifying why this is being pushed so hard. Did somebody just find something REALLY different and decide that it needed to be accepted? Was it a race to find something way different to look like they’re really being inclusive of everything? Makes no sense.

How many of these folks are there anyhow?

Finally, the vast majority of us are happy being men and women. Why is there a push to redefine all this? There are a few people with altered ideas/perceptions. They stand outside the norm. Let’s not revamp everything for some minuscule %.

---

******************************
If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat

It's crazy. Some R&B (or rap or hip-hop) singer named Ginuwine politely refuses to kiss a transgender/transsexual on live TV (what if he'd refused to kiss a woman... would there be such a freakout over it?) and now the left will work overtime to banish him to the gulags.

I don't like thought policing no matter which side it comes from. None of us should like it.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Nope. That part is ridiculous too. I’d refuse to kiss a tranny, a fat girl, a stinky girl, a girl with a mustache, a weirdly horny old bag...

It’s not what I like. Present me with a curvy little Latina and I’m all in!

---

******************************
If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat

I don't think it's mystifying at all. I think it's counterproductive and unnecessary, though.

As evidenced by the Crocodile Dundee clip, "trannys" have been historically ridiculed, singled out for violence, and generally mocked and shunned as the extreme manifestation of sexual deviance. So I get the impulse to normalize them by trying to broaden the binary gender categories.

Ideally, we would recognize them simply as transgender, a third category, and everyone goes on about their business. Everyone gets fair and equal treatment--employment, marriage, etc.--rather than trying to turn the definitions of Man and Woman on their heads to make them feel integrated and "normal."

It wasn't long ago that the LGBTQ community took pride in their differentness, and started Pride Day, Pride parades, and such all around the world to celebrate their uniqueness. But as it pertains to transgender advocacy, they've made a 180 degree u-turn away from pride in differentness and insist that they're in fact no different whatsoever.

Which, on every level, is just insane. It's like redefining heterosexuality to include homosexuals because of the historical stigmas about homosexuality, when we could instead just accept homosexuality as a component of human sexuality. Seems to me that's worked out pretty well for everyone so far.

---

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Because you're a bigot, transphobic and insecure.

Geez, keep up.

---

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Yeah, but I like money and banging chicks.

Where’s that quote from?

We should start a LR hashtag campaign to normalize moose sex.

#maplesyruplube

---

******************************
If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat

What's that you say? ;-)

"The Pensacola, Florida branch of the Women's March is banning the symbolic pink pussy hats to avoid offending transgender women and women of color.
...

In a statement posted to the Pensacola Women’s March’s Facebook page, the group argues that the hats assume that all women have pink vaginas, which represents a "very concentrated and thus, exclusionary sect of feminism."

First, the hats are allegedly transphobic because they ignore transgender women who don't have vaginas -- otherwise known as men who identify as women but choose not to have transitional surgery.

"The Pink P*ssy Hat reinforces the notion that woman = vagina and vagina = woman, and both of these are incorrect," the group claims.

Furthermore, the group considers the hats to be racist because they assume that all vaginas are pink, which is "white-focused and Eurocentric.""

How may we further reconfigure the basic structure of our society to please you, Tiny Noisy Minority?

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

---

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

...but not for that, it would be perfectly reasonable to reaffirm women's integrity and power by WEARING A YARN PUSSY ON YOUR HEAD.

---

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

I can't wait for the hats that have huge woolen dongs dangling off the foreheads. ;-)

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

It’s all pink on the inside...

So where does this leave the bleached asshole movement?

---

******************************
If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat

The comments in that post are uh-mazing.

Transsectional firing squad: ready, fire, aim!

---

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Like I said: it's crazy. Up is down, down is up... and it all depends on your subjective vision or, as Oprah would call it: "Your truth." ;-)

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

<<Some R&B (or rap or hip-hop) singer named Ginuwine politely refuses to kiss a transgender/transsexual on live TV (what if he'd refused to kiss a woman... would there be such a freakout over it?) and now the left will work overtime to banish him to the gulags.>>

Well, by his own admission, he is just a bachelor, looking for a partner. Someone who knows how to ride, without even falling off. You do have to be compatible, take him to his limits, but when he breaks you off, he promises you won't want to get off.

Hahahahahahahahaha! Classic! :-)

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

The article in that link is hilarious. The comments are just comedy gold. The extremist lady, with her degree in victemology just positively beats the shit out of her less extreme brethren. What a perfect way to make a big movement, small, a reasonable movement, not.

---

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Holy shit this gave me a good laugh!

---

Long Chile was a silly place.