she seems to have a point and damages to her clearly occurred.

---

2018 Races: IM Santa Rosa, Vineman Monte Rio, Lake Tahoe 70.3

People are going to that manufacturer knowing full well they are dodgy, and actually expecting that those supps contain PEDs. But the mfg won't be able to use that excuse in court. It will be an interesting case indeed.

Sorta like TylerHamilton taking a supplement for depression even though the supplement was known to contain DHEA. He's never copped to that.

I rode the tour with a severely broken collar bone on just bread and water... really!

Off topic I know but every time I see that picture, I can't help thinking that he literally looks like a concentration camp survivor. If this level of leanness is what people call "race weight", F*** the the hell out of that!!! He looks totally unhealthy.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I'd say it is unhealthy racing at that level.

Typed 3 responses and deleted them......yeah, interested to see how this turns out.

I can't imagine either party wants to actually go to court.

---

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Interesting perspective.

Care to elaborate?

Don't you think the parties will just settle out of court?

---

---

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As a supplement distributor, I wouldn't.

Enough blame to go around.

Doesn't seem to say what she is suing for. This is a dodgy area. If the banned substance isn't listed on the product's label, but it's in there, the manufacturer may be liable?

---

"The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

That's what it takes to be a top rider in the tour.
Yes, it takes PED's too, but you also have to be stupid light.
Remember Michael R?

Actually, he did cop to it. Not sure how it went down, but it would be easy enough to check...in his book the "The Secret Race," Hamilton says he held a press conference wherein he said that he took the supplement and that he knew it contained DHEA after he the positive test.

---

___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

This is why you have to know your supply chain all the way back to the original manufacturer. Unless there are boots on the ground inspecting the place they make some of this stuff, you cannot be assured of quality. Think of what happened to Cyto a few years back with arsenic and lead from contaminated protein (India). China...is an "issue". There was that issue in Australia with salt pills some years back. Our little tri world is pretty insulated, but when you venture into the body building world it should be a HUGE red flag for everyone. It's buyer beware.

I know everyone on the drink side, and this is the stuff that keeps us up at night. We all are ex-athletes and the though of causing an issue for anyone makes me sick to my stomach. What makes me sleep well is knowing that if there was a better ingredient available, we would use it. Sacrificing quality for price is NEVER a factor for us. We are probably 95% US Domestic produced ingredients. Everything we do is pre-tested before it hits my door. I know we are premium, but it's the very best quality with supply chain control from beginning to end. That makes me feel better.

---

infinIT Nutrition
Custom Blended Nutrition Solutions
http://www.infinITNutrition.com

Don_W wrote:

Doesn't seem to say what she is suing for. This is a dodgy area. If the banned substance isn't listed on the product's label, but it's in there, the manufacturer may be liable?

https://www.fda.gov/...480069.htm#what_info

The manufacturer has to list all ingredients. In practice, many products are not evaluated by the FDA for accurate information because it lacks time and funding for this.
Typically, a product will be evaluated if several folks suffer adverse medical events.

Yeah, he looks incredibly malnourished. But the one line I remember from his book, The Secret Race, is the doctor telling him, "Tyler, you are sooooo fat!"

Good for her. If you can prove, and it seems she did, that a supplement was mislabeled or contaminated then the athlete either shouldn't get a ban or the company needs to be held responsible for the damage done to that athlete.
It's easy to be high and mighty and say we should all know and be accountable for everything we put in our body, but during an IM it's hard to be completely self contained and not use any on course support. Or even keeping yourself from sampling anything at a race expo w/o first fully vetting the company.

I lived w/ a guy using testosterone cream for several months before I found out. I very likely would've failed a drug test because of trace amounts left on doorknobs, countertops, etc. It's impossible to always know everything that's going in.

Full disclosure, I knew Lauren when she first started tri, but i'd back anyone who provided an unopened product to be tested and found the contaminant. If a product is widely known to contain an unlisted substance then put it on the banned list.

I'm not an expert on this, but most supplements don't seem to be regulated by the FDA, which is pointed out on their labels. In that case, FDA regulations would not apply (I would think). Not sure what supplement was being used here, but as others have said, I think if something isn't regulated by FDA, you are taking it into your own hands.

You are confusing 2 things here. First, the link I posted is directly from the FDA.
What the FDA does not regulate are the claims made by supplement manufacturers. Manufacturers still have to indicate what is in their products.

"...which Barnett had purchased at a store in Plano and cleared with her trainer before using..."


Who on earth is her trainer? I had never heard of this/these products & just a quick glance in viewing their website, how could any 1/2-way decent trainer, recommend a product w/ literally zero independent testing on the ingredients/sourcing?

---

Brian Shea
http://www.PersonalBestNutrition.com
Open-Water/Masters Swimming at the Jersey Shore:
Monmouth County NJ Ocean Swim/Masters Workouts

Ah, what do you know?

:-)

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

ah okay, there's my lack of understanding there. Good thing to have learned though as I always thought it was a little confusing.

Practically, you are correct however, because the FDA lacks the resources to check the product labels. So until things are monitored more closely, it will remain as if there is zero oversight, unless people die (usually the only time the FDA will start looking at a specific product).

Yes and no. If I recall, it was something like "I needed depression meds but the perfectly legit Rx I had wasn't working, so I went with an off-label supplement which I knew contained DHEA".

This was in 2008, when he was riding for Rock (Bottom) Racing, the home of such illustrious riders as Kayle Leogrande & Paco Mancebo.
At that point, Tyler had been accused of doping in the 2004 olympics (skated on technicality of spoiled B sample), busted during '04 Vuelta (blood transfusion, served 2yr ban), and then implicated in '07 Spanish doping sting, which saw him fired from Tinkoff during his 'comeback'.
By 2008, he was drinking at the last-chance saloon and riding for a team which was a doper's refuge.

I enjoyed Tyler's book, but "I took DHEA to combat depression" explanation rings hollow.
IMO, he was trying to salvage any scrap of dignity or career legacy he had left.
Nothing sours your place in sporting history quite like being a 3-time doper.

(Thread hijack over)

Double letters again

I bet she took it, knowing what was in it, and suing them for a misleading label was her back-up plan if she got busted

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Wow - she is fast. Won (actually 18th) an Ironman in 2:36. I always thought they took close to 8 hours to win.

I'll counter with Lance, who weighed 155-ish at his lightest, and Miguel Indurain who weighed 170-ish. Don't recall Michael R.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Michael Rassmusen (sp?). 59kg race weight

Serious question: Would sunscreen slow these guys down? Definitely a skin cancer wanna be poster boy!

I'm guessing most use sunscreen, but keep in mind, they are on the bike for 6+ hours at a time, and when doing that in a race, you don't have time to stop and re-apply your coppertone... :)

What Brian and Michael said were my immediate reactions

1) What Pro Triathlete would look at that company's website and think "I feel good about ordering from them" ... as soon as I see a body building focused supplement company the safe bet is to trn 180 degrees

2) Her "Trainer?" advised this? Maybe she sues her trainer too ?? What was her trainers role in her actual

3) If you need an electrolyte supplement, again why would you use this company and not well respected and quality one such as Meta-Salt?

... I'll leave it at that

---

-------------------------
Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

You are partially correct in so far, as the FDA requires ingredients to be listed. However the regulations do not require to list every spurious content or any possible contamination.

As an example, peanut butter has not to be listed as ingredient on the ingredient list even though the product is processed on peanut-contaminated equipment and hence contains trace amounts of peanuts (although the FDA nowadays requires an extra disclaimer for that for safety reasons).
Similarly, there are also stipulations in place for spurious contents/trace elements and their threshold limits that are considered to be safe (Mercury comes to mind, but this also applies to Biologics).

On that note:
Depending on funds (which are the real trump card and game winner in our legal system), and with the murky position of the FDA on supplements:
If I were the defendant and had pockets deep enough, I would give it at shot and try to stand my ground. And maybe say "SORRY".

Article says she "cleared it" with her trainer. To me that's different than her trainer recommending or advising her to take it. First of all, it suggests the athlete was the one who instigated the conversation. We don't know the context of the conversation where the trainer "cleared" it, but it very well may have been along the lines of "I see nothing in that list of ingredients that's a banned substance."

---

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

supposedly this is a known brand in the body building / weight lifting community for getting a little more than you bargained for in the PED department. It's suspect that a triathlete would go to that brand and that they would "clear it" with their "trainer".

All of these things ring hollow.

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

When I see these stories, I just see folks trying to find a way to cut a corner to get an edge. Nothing wrong with that, but you are rolling the dice.
And since this has happened time and time again, well, ...

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

If the contaminated supplement was something well known and widely used in triathlon, such as Saltstick or Hammer Endurolytes then I may have some sympathy and support for her lawsuit. The product she choose has so many red flags that I don't know why anyone would consider taking it when there are so many other reputable options which are readily available.

I agree and I find it odd that she would want to to bring attention to herself again. She was pretty much cleared of wrong doing and had a very light suspension.

On the other hand, you have athletes that recieved a more substantial suspension and have (to my knowledge) not gone after the supplement producer.

---

https://twitter.com/mungub

Endurolytes? Hammer was sued for contamination in that product causing positive drug tests as well...

When I see these stories, I just see folks trying to find a way to cut a corner to get an edge.//

Taking a salt supplement is cutting corners?? Guess you don't have a salt shaker on your table, or are you cutting corners too Dave??


And of course after the fact it is obvious to all you that think she should have known, did you know 3 years ago?? Did you know about the other companies that were later found to have tainted supplements? If so, how did you know before anyone else did? It is ridiculous to hold these athletes responsible for taking a common mineral that we all take is some form to know if a company has tainted it. She absolutely has a good case and should win it, and I think once proven the penalties should be reduced or even erased.


Suppose Morton tainted their product Dave, what are you going to say then??? You going to accept that you are a drug cheater and step aside?? Or will you do exactly what this woman did, fight it as being unfair and then try and get renumaration after it is proved without a doubt it was not her fault?

Tyler Hamilton has done more great speaking lately on PEDs than any former doper.

He is a stand up guy and is really doing more than a lot of other dopers.

Look up some of his most recent youtube talks, there was one from some college in England that was excellent, the Q+A was really enlightening.

I think the PED issue is so pervasive and so deep in so many sports, to single out older cyclists is really distracting from the fact that we have really poor doping controls in most mainstream sports.

Bad quote paraphrase of Contador: "my friend brought me a steak up from Spain, and it must have caused the bad test".

I'm not an elite anything. If it isn't an actual food then it better be something that's pretty much just a food in powder form and nothing else. And even then from an organic grocery store.

If the store has muscly guys/gals on the outside and meathead products inside.........not a good sign.

LOL at the testosterone cream on the door handle comment above. A lot of those these days are in a deodorant style applicator to roll under arm or on a forearm.

That’s a ridiculous analogy. This is a professional athlete who took an unregulated dietary supplement, not some joe eating table salt. The supplement company was specifically identified by USADA as one that sells contaminated supplements. USADA also has a specific warning about ostarine contamination in supplements in big letters on their website. As professional you have a responsibility to know the rules and to be aware of what you put in your body, if you want to take the chance on a sketch-ball supplement, you take your chances. That’s what Dave means when he says he sees people trying to “cut corners”. The only reason to take that type of risk is to gain something for nothing, only in this case she got burned. Tough luck.
Should she sue the supplement maker? Sure! Does she have a good case? Maybe. Does she also bear some respondibilty? Definitely. Should she get a sanction for a doping violation? I think so. Could USADA reduce the penalty after weighing the mitigating factors? Yup.

"Barnett is suing for negligence, claiming that the incident resulted in a loss of income from triathlon-related sponsorships and endorsements and that it has “permanently tarnished” her reputation."

I won't trust another result of hers, even if she wins or settles out of court. It sounds like many share my view on this thread. So I understand why she is suing.

The supplement company was specifically identified by USADA as one that sells contaminated supplements.//

Was that up on their site in 2014 so that this athlete could even have had this information? From what I can tell it looks like it is her exact case that alerted them and then they put it up. Do you know something otherwise?


And it is just like table salt, it was a fucking salt pill!! Virtually all top athletes and a ton of AG'ers take salt supplements, it is just too hard on the stomach to pour raw salt into a water bottle. You really think she just heard through the grapevine, or you assertion that she read about it on USADA's website and though, hey I could maybe get me some illegal drugs? And then knowing that since she is a podium contender that perhaps she would just roll the dice on getting tested? Is that what your smell tests tells you happened?

That was my question (When did it go on the Warning List?). I can see a plausible case for her to collect damages from the company. However, I disagree that she should have her suspension reversed if she wins this case; USADA is clear that taking any supplements is risky, and that you're responsible for any positive tests that result from taking supplements, whether or not it was known they contained a banned substance.

---

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

You are right, I do not have a salt shaker on my table. I have not used salt from a shaker for more years than I can remember. No need to use it, I get plenty in the food I eat.

You missed my point, but whats new

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You missed my point, but whats new //

I missed your point, wtf do you think my entire post was addressing!!! I GIVE UP, YOU WIN!!!

Nah, you clearly win :)

So, when do we get Dan to race?

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

My smell test tells me that she was extremely careless about what she put in her body and she should have known better. That’s what I said in my post. I did not say that she was engaged in some sort of conspiracy to score illegal drugs so don’t put words in my mouth. Everyone knows that supplements have the potential to be contaminated and if you did take a supplement why in the world would you take some off-brand, non-established product. She played roulette and lost. She can go ahead and sue and get what she can but she should also get a doping sanction. That’s all I’m saying.
Also, I’m not sure if you’re gaslighting with this question but what she took is different than table salt because with a nutritional supplement you're buying product from an unregulated company that has a vested interest in seeing that you experience a noticeable performance gain when you use their products. At one end of the spectrum maybe they slip you a little something so that you’ll swear to all who’ll listen that only their salt pills work. That’s good for business. Less nefarious, they don’t clean their machines properly after filling their proprietary “Super Body Builder Mega Pump Testicle Reduction Blend” capsules. That’s them just not caring. Either way, more than just flavor.

Ok I will not put words in your mouth, I will just copy and paste them for you;

The supplement company was specifically identified by USADA as one that sells contaminated supplements.

So you said she should have known because this was put out there by USADA. I said it looked to me that it was her case that got USADA to put this up, so how was she supposed to know again?? She was supposed to have a time machine, go into the future and check the website, then come back with the knowledge, tell me in your words how it works exactly??


And lets keep in mind again that it was a salt supplement, not some muscle boosting milk shake that are popular with the body builders, just salt..

Interesting three cases I'm aware of over the last two seasons. All deny any wrongdoing which isn't a rare thing when it comes to PED defence but something is going on in supplements and a reminder we all probably should be more aware of...


https://triathlonmagazine.ca/blogs/op-ed-triathlon-seeing-athletes-test-positive-ostarine-recently/

Let me provide some information:

1) she bought the supplement from a triathlon store. Possibly the largest one in Texas. Possibly one that has had a slowtwitch road show.

2) the supplement maker was local. So you can see how it ended up in the store. I doubt that there is a wide distribution of the product and thus I doubt she “heard on the underground” that the supplement contained the PED.

3) anyone who says she took the supplement knowing it was on the “danger” list has the chronology wrong. It showed up on the list because it was sent to a wada lab for testing after Barnett tested her own batch and alerted authorities.

4) I met Lauren twice. I don’t like her. When she got popped I thought she probably did it knowingly because it would confirm the narrative I created in my head about her. But I did a little investigating (probably so I could pile on her here). I was just wrong about my assumptions. She is a victim here. Too bad she is suing an entity with no money.

5) I will not view her future results with taint.

I cannot edit my post: it should say “ I didn’t particularly like her. “ I don’t know her remotely well enough to say that I don’t like her.

I get all that -- but that's exactly what was said when he 1st got popped.
("Couldn't be.. he's the nicest guy and the hardest working, too.")

I have no way of knowing if his DHEA-as-antidepressant story is true; IMO, it doesn't pass the sniff test.
Depression is no joke and as I understand it, he was dealing with some tough personal/family issues back then.

But the fact that you still respect him? is reason enough for him to float the pseudo-antidepressant story.
You probably wouldn't respect him as much if he admitted to being a 3-time busted doper.
Nor would the clients who currently retain his training service$.

You need to look at what he has done over the past 3-4 years and also I know he was trying to be honest with his friends before he was caught. He has been through more than what is publicly known.

Let me provide some information:

1) she bought the supplement from a triathlon store. Possibly the largest one in Texas. Possibly one that has had a slowtwitch road show.

2) the supplement maker was local. So you can see how it ended up in the store. I doubt that there is a wide distribution of the product and thus I doubt she “heard on the underground” that the supplement contained the PED.

3) anyone who says she took the supplement knowing it was on the “danger” list has the chronology wrong. It showed up on the list because it was sent to a wada lab for testing after Barnett tested her own batch and alerted authorities.

4) I met Lauren twice. I don’t like her. When she got popped I thought she probably did it knowingly because it would confirm the narrative I created in my head about her. But I did a little investigating (probably so I could pile on her here). I was just wrong about my assumptions. She is a victim here. Too bad she is suing an entity with no money.

5) I will not view her future results with taint. //

These are the things I was trying to get across to people, glad you did some research and was able to come to a non emotional conclusion, the right one I believe too. I wasn't aware of the local triathlon story as the sale point either. I would also just add that the drug that was laced in the salt pill was not an available drug and not one really on the radar of most athletes. It is still experimental, so not really inclined to believe that endurance athletes are seeking this out, at least not yet..


And I don't know her at all, and sounds like I probably would not like her either, but that is not the point..

Here's a 2009 article on his DHEA suspension.

I am sure this won’t be the last time this happens. These supplement companies are having more and more of these samples contaminated and it comes a very high cost to the athletes. Commonly taken things like salt tabs are causing failed tests and that’s devastating to the athletes. I how she wins and sets a precedent

No, commonly taken "things" don't contain 'Enobosarm". which is actually Ostarine in doses that make you fail a drug test:

https://www.google.com/...biw=1600&bih=752

They do actually write that on the label, but FDA let's them get away with obfuscating the presence of an illegal steroid, as it is a "supplement".

If you buy a "salt" that contains Enobosarm, MK-2866, or GTx-024, you are not buying salt, you are buying a supplement that contains Ostarine.

You are not simply taking salt, and that is how you get popped.

I didn't know anything about ostarine until checking this out. I'm from the Dallas area and know a number of people that are blindly defending her. Her excuse doesn't really make sense to me. My question is, how much would be needed to be consumed to flag on a drug test? The lab tests (from the original article) found about 150 nanograms per capsule. My quick google shows an effective daily dosage for women of 10-15mg (men roughly double that). Even at 10mg, that's over 60,000 capsules.... a day.


10,000,000 (nanograms/day) / 150 (nongrams/capsule) = 66,666 capsules/day

https://www.mysupplementstore.com/ostarine-sarms-guide


Am I missing something? That is for an "effective" dose, and amounts just according to one random website. I don't know how much would be needed to get flagged on a drug test, but that site also says there is a 24 hour half life, so how many capsules would be needed to throw a positive test? Is this something where just one or two capsules, so a few hundred nanograms, would set off the test?


It seems to me like that small of a dosage/capsule is so minuscule that it would neither flag on a drug test or have any effect on training/performance. Seems more likely to me that ostarine was being used in a higher dosage and these salt capsules were picked up knowing they were tainted to use as a scapegoat in case of a positive test.

you are not missing anything. Ostarine is a known drug and that company was a known company. It's all a game. It's just that this forum is totally naive compared to body building forums where this is common knowledge.

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

 I don't know how much would be needed to get flagged on a drug test, //

Well there you go, answer that question and you have it. All your other numbers posted are pointless and just noise. You and a bunch of others here keep putting those out there while there is only one number that matters. Just find that one and you can stop the circle jerk around the topic..

Supplements - especially risky ones being unregulated, have long been known to mislead about what they contain, or don't contain. This has been covered in the sport section of virtually every major newspaper and magazine. Lauren is either an incredibly stupid sucker, or she knew the ingredients and tried to get away with it. In either case, she knew the risk and made her bed. Now she can sleep in it. They should double her suspension and I hope the lawsuit goes nowhere.

the first thing I would do if taking ostarine is to find a "local" supplement company to provide me with salt tabs

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Apparently, the amount of ostarine in the positive tests was indeed consistent with ingesting a few of the contaminated tablets. This amount also seems to be far below an "effective" dosage. WTC agreed, and that's why she got a comparatively light sentence.

---

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Yes, but the lawsuit was settled, so we don't know much.

But from what we do know, I'm highly skeptical of the athletes involved because the only samples of the supplement that tested positive were those supplied by Rebekah Keat's sister. Which is a horrible chain of custody. To my knowledge, no independently-acquired samples tested positive. And USADA tried.

So your belief is that a rider drinking at the last chance saloon, who is intimately familiar with a wide range of drugs and their efficacy, decided to save his career by using a dogshit ghetto doping product that has no proven ergogenic effect instead of a drug that actually works? Sounds legit.

So your belief is that a rider drinking at the last chance saloon, who is intimately familiar with a wide range of drugs and their efficacy, decided to save his career by using a dogshit ghetto doping product that has no proven ergogenic effect instead of a drug that actually works? Sounds legit. //

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter too. Also there was a long period of time when DHEA was not on the banned list and I remember being sold in Costco in bulk. I don't know what year exactly it was put up there, but seems like early 2000's it might have still been legal??


Tyler's story has been pretty well documented now and it is quite plain the dude suffered for his choices( internally as wells as externally) He has also been a great resource as a window into what was going on at the time of his career. I've met him a couple times and like others have walked away thinking he was a nice guy, kind of quiet and respectful, and quite remorseful for his choices. He did have opportunities after there first bad choice to turn it around, but he just got so sucked in that he could not free himself from the hamster wheel. I hope at some point he can find peace, but his choices will always be dogging his reputation and that will be his legacy to the sport, cannot escape that..

Thank you, this is what I was looking for. Sounds like her answer is more plausible than I was giving it credit for. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

They test for the presence of most drug not the “effective dosage”. Your body metabolizes drugs and as it does so the presence of the drug in your system is gradually reduced. If they only tested for quantities consistent with the “effective dosage” your window for catching a doper is greatly reduced. You pretty much have to test them as soon as they take the drug. That’s why they test for drugs in significantly lower concentrations, they are accounting for your body clearing that shit out.
ETA: I bet she got a lighter sentence because she was able to demonstrate that she ingested ostarine inadvertently through a contaminated supplement. Not because it was a low quantity that tripped the test. That would just be a factor in considering intent.

That's fine in my book. Lawsuits that shine a light of transparency on bad actors are a form of enforcement that benefits the industry as a whole, and the world of sport indirectly. Money changing hands is nice for the direct victims when possible, though.

So, essentially, what you are saying is that in a book wherein he admitted to doping pretty much his entire pro career, going to extreme detail as to how he did it, and to admitting that he lied over and over again about doping...decided in his book to lie about this one particular supplement? Your theory doesn’t really pass the sniff test. Why on earth would this one event be the thing he lies about in the book?

---

___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

You are completely wrong about that. 100%. A separate batch was tested by the Utah WADA lab. Literally what you just wrote is the exact opposite of the truth.

Just spitballing here but the whole premise of his book is that he had to dope in order to compete in Europe. Rock Racing didn’t race in Europe so if he continued to dope while racing domestically, his entire justification for doping goes out the window. He’s no longer leveling the playing field, he’s just cheating.

Do you honestly think her sentence would have been reduced had the amount found in her system not been consistent with the amount found in the supplements? Do you think that the people who catch drug cheats for a living would have considered that?

Do you have a reference? I believe you, it's just not what I remember from reading the CAS report (which I couldn't find right away)

Edit: I found Neben's CAS report. Nothing in there on the subject.

Keat's CAS report 2005/879 is strangely missing form the CAS database archive.

I've also found no reference in any news article about the CAS or other reports stating that a governing body was ever able to go out any independently acquire a Hammer product and have it test positive in a WADA-accredited lab. Labs were able to report positive results on the basis of samples provided by Keat (which I take with a grain of salt, (no pun)).

I'll happily and humbly correct myself and apply lashes if you can show me something in the CAS 879 report I can't find that shows otherwise. Or some other appropriately legitimate document.

It is in her lawsuit petition. Subsequent to Barnett’s bottle being tested WADA tested an entire separate batch of neuolyte. In fact that is where he 150 / nanogram figure comes from. It is the basis for the lawsuit.

I don’t know how to provide a copy on my phone but simply look it up yourself. Dallas County court filings.

Dallas County? I thought the lawsuit was in CA court. Who is Barnett?

OH WAIT. I think talking about completely different cases?! I'm talking about Keat/Vine/Neben from back circa 2003. Are you talking about something different?

this. I consult to the supplement industry and many of the smaller companies in "sports" in particular do not do their own manufacturing- contamination happens that way too. I consult to raw ingredient companies but there are VERY few supplements I trust because I know too much. You have to know where the raw ingredients come from if THEY are reputable and what kind of testing is done and then what happens to them. What kind of testing and verification does the company do? From dissolution studies and bioavailability to purity etc. Both inhouse and outside verification with again a REPUTABLE company

Bumping this thread up as I see that the salt product I believe she was using is on the high risk category on the wada website now. Seems like she should probably win or did win, anyone know?

This one really chaps me because salt supplements is a product that a lot of people use, including myself almost daily. I have stuck with salt stick and will continue to use them, feel really good about the guy that runs that place and he does his utmost best to keep contamination out of the product. Sure most companies do, but every once in awhile money will trump ethics and it is the pro athlete caught up in what could be career ending..

I know the first go to excuse is always a tainted supplement, so we are numb to that excuse. But just like death penalty cases, sometimes those people are innocent, and when it is proven, then the information needs to be as strident in the affirmation as it was in the initial drubbing an athlete takes when their test comes up positive and the whole world knows..

This exactly what Beth Gerdes McKenzie is claiming when she got popped for having ostarine in her system. She said that a supplement on the Ironman course was tainted with the illegal substance. Beth claims it was a well known salt supplement that many athletes use on a regular basis. Seems she is back to training and ready to race soon so I wonder what happened with her lawsuit/ban?

please don't speculate about a brand of salt tab, naming that brand here. put it on your own facebook page. not here. if you want to print the name of a brand here that is actually on a high risk list, okay. otherwise, please don't. thanks for understanding.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

This exactly what Beth Gerdes McKenzie is claiming when she got popped for having ostarine in her system.

Obviously we always want to get to the bottom of theses issues, and if this was truly completely inadvertent and accidental then the athlete will get hopefully exonerated.

The problem of course is in the so-called Court of Public Opinion. Over the years athletes, have claimed all manner of crazy outlandish stories about how a certain illegal compound got into their body - we've heard it all, "Tainted meat", "Kissed a prostitute who had cocaine on her lips", "My tooth-paste was spiked", "My massage therapist put it in his massage oil", "It must have been on the buttons of the hotel elevator" . . etc . . all the previous have been used as excuses as to how illegal WADA Drugs made it into an athletes system. These days, we really don't know who to believe.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Until just recently I was not aware of the NSF Certification for supplements:

https://www.thorne.com/sports-performance

NSF, GMP, Safe For Sport, Informed Choice are big certification and require a lot of work to gain and maintain.

In regards to Thorne, not a fan of their flavor profiles. Yes, they've been in the game awhile, but their flavoring and marketing is pretty atrocious.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

It is a tough battle. I was talking to a supplement maker that reached out and asked whether they should consider the NSF testing. I of course said yes but the problem is that drives up the price of the product and we seem to be in a race to the bottom in the Amazon-effect. They would like to do it but just don't know if they can justify the cost - after all they are very careful about sourcing ingredients but without after-the-fact analysis and certification that doesn't mean much

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ok mate - that's two plugs for your sponsor in two posts. I think slowman takes a dim view of that kind of advertising here ...

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I wonder how Slowman feels about starting whole new threads plugging sponsors?

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/.../?page=unread#unread

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Oui, mais pas de femme toute de suite (yes, but I am not ready for a woman straight away) -Stephen Roche's reply when asked whether he was okay after collapsing at the finish in the La Plagne stage of the 1987 Tour

Not to be too much of a Thorne-Bro, but the Vice President of the Sport Performance 'line' was a two time Olympian in Weight Lifting and ex - Director of Sports Performance at the USOC. He told us that he spent a decade of looking for a company that would support NSF for the USOC. Thorne was the only one to step up and dedicate a line of products unique to sport performance, they had been doing most of it for their other line of products already, the products that required a Dr to prescribe them.

You are correct, it does cost alot, and adds to the price of the product, but for us, we now have an alternative that we can decide if its worth the cost. I hope to set another hour record and when i piss in the cup, I know I'll be ok.

I get that and it is valuable to me too and hopefully my fellow pros feel the same way... but the masses, well not so much. Not that you have to sell to the masses to have a viable business, but yes it certainly limits your sales as the average user doesn't think NSF is a real benefit they are willing to pay for.

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I will concur with Dan on this, and add a few things for clarification since this was a very broad statement.


I own BASE Performance, and since we are the ONLY Salts on the Ironman Courses in the US, I want to add that Beth's race was NOT in the US.


"She said that a supplement on the Ironman course was tainted with the illegal substance. Beth claims it was a well known salt supplement that many athletes use on a regular basis."


This product you are referring to is NOT BASE Performance or BASE Salts. Beth has never spoken to us. Nor has she ever taken our product.


Here is a direct link to Beth's blog where she discusses exactly what she is talking about in reference to Ironman Australia as well as SALT PILLS, which, to confirm, BASE does not have salt pills.


http://californiatraining.blogspot.de/2017/02/the-greatest-disappointment-of-my-life.html


Just wanted to clarify since many people are now reaching out to me concerning these statements.


Thanks

Wow. My apologies. I actually never even thought it was Base when she brought up the salt company in her article. I also never meant to imply that she had any connection to your company. I was wondering where Dan's comment came from since I mentioned nor implied zero company names in my comment. A quick Google search shows that there are multiple companies that are selling salt products for athletes. In the future I will refrain from broad statements so that people don't automatically assume one thing or another.

I think a lot of people made an assumption based on your comments because Base I believe is the official "salt" sponsor of Ironman. Thus, most of us thought Beth shouldn't be getting salt on the Ironman course unless it was from Base. I know that is what I thought when I read your original post.

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Thank you for clarifying that. I was seriously confused as to how I set people off when my comment wasn't meant to be provocative. I should have just said the name as a point of reference in regards to the topic at hand. I know for next time!

Wait. I haven't followed the case closely. Is this true that Gerdes claims it was an on course supplement supplied by Ironman that was responsible for her positive test? I don't recall hearing that claim before. Seems like that would be a huge story.

I am not usually in favor of editing a post but I think slowman ought to. Because I was momentarily shocked and pissed at your company for something you didn't do. And I seriously almost threw out a bunch of product!

Hello mattmiller and All,

Are you same as Base Cartel that makes the great socks?

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster