Part of your problem might be crank arm length.

Also, which saddle were you using?

I did an edit, but I was using a 155 mm specialized power comp saddle with 172.5 crank length.

What other saddles did you test?

What other crank arm lengths did you test?

That's not crazy tall, but flexibility as a driver of stack is highly over rated. Exactly how inflexible are you in terms of a knees straight attempt at a toe touch?

If that is indeed the fit you need, (and I'm not convinced that it is) a 58cm B series with a few 1cm spacers + Profile bars adjusted up + a roughly a 9cm 30 degree stem would probably be more than enough stack, and keep that tight reach intact. Or a 58 P series. Or a 58 nearly anything with a non proprietary front end.

Thank you for the reply.

Standing barefoot I can touch the ground with the tips of my fingers without bending my knees. The fitter mentioned my tight hip flexors when laying on a bench and bringing a bent knee towards my chest.

Sounds like your fitter was seeking dysfunction. And located some. I wasn't there, and touching your toes isn't the end all be all, but at 6'1", 210, and decent flexibility, that stack and that drop are worth a second opinion. It probably won't change your bike size, but it might give you additional options, and it would almost certainly make you faster.

As Jim mentioned, crank arm length and saddle / posture are in play as well. That's not a top saddle for facilitating proper rotation.

Thank you for the info. Unfortunately, right now a second fit is not in the cards. As someone looking for an entry level bike, a fit is already 20% of my anticipated purchase price.

From what I gather, the stack and drop are fluid while the reach is a little more static.

With that said, based upon the highest stack and the narrow reach, I am now looking at:

• Blue Triad SP (575mm/432mm)
• QR Kilo (568mm/424mm)
• Felt B Series (573mm/436mm)

Any other tall and narrow entry level bikes I should be looking at?

Everyone else is pretty well covered it. That fit isn't great at all for identifying the right size bike for you.

Wrong saddle, flexibility limitation is nonsense (as a position-limiter) based on what you've told us, and if we could see pics I'm guessing the saddle height is a smidge too high as well (for the saddle you're riding).

This is ultimately the problem with fit first - it's actually pretty hard to do well and most people claiming they do it aren't providing any value at all. It's just a dog and pony show to keep you from only buying from the fitters that are good at it.

Listing things like crank length and the saddle used is essential information - if one thing was missing I would chalk it up to a mistake, but when nothing is listed I assume the fitter doesn't realize it's extremely important. Without knowing which saddle was used, fit coordinates are turn-by-turn directions that ignore the starting point. If you don't start at the right spot, taking a left and then a right and then a left won't get you where you want to go. But if you know where to start, then those directions can be extremely useful.

But even when it's listed, it can still be ignored. We have a competitor that has, on numerous occasions, told a customer our fit coordinates were bad when their setup led to bad results. But the bad results were because the competitor didn't realize you needed to use the same (or extremely similar) saddle to reproduce the same outcome. I know it seems like it should be Bike Shop 101 stuff, but not so much.

---

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Attached was the only photo included with my report.

My understanding was this “fit” would help me find a frame that fits my body. I would then dial things in whenever I brought whatever biked I ended up with back to the shop.

It doesnÂ’t sound like this was all that helpful in finding the appropriate bike, which is disappointing based upon the cost.

No doubt it's disappointing. And far too common. I'm guessing the bike they'd put you on has no relationship to the report whatsoever.

Let's look at your fit coordinates and compare to a few bikes. Your armpad stack was 773 (to the top of the armpad from the center of the bottom bracket) and your armpad reach was 426 (from the center of the bottom bracket to the edge of the armpad closest to the rider).

A Felt B-series in a 61 has an armpad range of 714 to 793 if you use all of the spacers and flip the stem up to get to that highest point. But the reach on that bike has a minimum (armpads in the rearward position and mounted flush but behind the base bar clamp) of 463 mm, and you're FOUR CENTIMETERS behind that. So unless you are ridiculously long-legged, short torsoed, and have a metal rod through your cervical spine (or have a giant gas tank attached to your mid-section like me), that position is extremely unlikely to be appropriate.

Consider the Felt B-series in a 58 - if you flip the stock stem up and use all the spacers, it gets up to 748 mm for the armpad stack maximum. That means you'd need a +25 stem and use all of the spacers to arrive at those fit coordinates. The reach range on the 58 has a 444 minimum (again, using the stock stem and mounting the armpads in the aft position and behind the base bar clamp) - still 2 cm in front of you.

But the fact that you have such a shallow narrow armpad reach but still have a few cm to come forward on the saddle is more evidence that you fitter wasn't very skilled.

My guess is that, if fit appropriately, the 58 or 61 would be an okay fit in the B14. But I could have told you that if you'd just told me how tall you were. The fit report you got provides very little use in determining your bike size.

---

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Looking at your fit my suspicions are confirmed - saddle a bit too high, wrong saddle, and position is more upright than necessary.

Fact of the matter is, that fit isn't terrible based on what I see day-in, day-out. It just isn't very good.

---

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Thank you for all the insight Trent.

Man I feel for you. I paid for a couple Bad fits before doing it myself with help from guys on here including Trent. ST will hopefully get you straightened out.

If you weren't fit on several saddles and crank lengths, you should ask for a refund.

Your fitter sounds like a classic charlatan or an idiot.

Start a thread like everyone else for your fit by internet session. ST can get your straightened out.

You may as well ride a road bike.... I had a fitter do that to me.

Nah, we all know "fitter" are perfect. From what I have read, most fitters do not have the tools to deal with different crank lengths.

Wow, 20% of the cost of bike and some wonder why so many are turned away from the sport.

IMO, for a beginner, just guy a used bike. It really is not that hard to get a decent fit by just reading stuff on line.

Oh well, yes, for many, I think paying a fitter is a racket, just like paying to have ones TV adjusted. But, just my opinion. :)

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

No paying a fitter with no clue and getting a result like above is unfortunately where the industry is, paying a good fitter and getting a proper result is money well spent.
Funnily enough, it seems the more they charge the more they don't know.
They are so hopeless they don't even know they are useless at fitting somebody, but he did have the fancy electronics and a fancy looking fit bike to fluff the customer out of their money.
I could make a bloody good thread by just posting up pictures of fits done by the pro's at a couple of local shops.

exactly.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I don't disagree, but how long would you estimate this takes? How long did it take you, for example?

Indeed.

The shitty-fitter business is still making money, clearly, so until we figure out how to ID and remove them, this will be a game of whack-a-mole. I'm not sure a public flogging by slowtwitch will shame any fitters into doing a better job, but a Wall of Shame would be nice to point folks towards to say, "hey, if you end up looking like this, the fitter's job is not done."

Also, didn't Dan write an article (series?) about how to prepare for a bike fit? I can't find it, and it seems like a useful thing to point to.
-J

---

----------------------------------------------------------------
Life is tough. But it's tougher when you're stupid. -John Wayne

I don't have much experience fitting inflexible people. Is the problem that a fitter put him in that high position or something else?

Is Inflexibility even a problem?

I'm getting 144° knee angle (saddle not too high but I can see the toe down)
Hip to Femur of 95° which is a little open
Body to forearm of 80° (ok that's a little short)

i wrote that here. also, i told you guys how to identify good fitters. ask to see their work. they ought to have a portfolio. there is a field on our fitters database and you can search for those who ONLY have that portfolio field populated.

now, if a fitter does not have that field populated, don't go to him until he does. it's that simple. if he doesn't have a listing on our database, what is it the other 684 fitters know that he doesn't? at this point, if there's that many fitters who've got a listing there, when is it the fitter's lack of professionalism rather than a limit to our outreach that's to blame?

i can only provide so many tools for you guys! if you don't use them; don't know they exist; don't tell your friends/club/FB group they exist; hold fitters accountable to update and use the tools; if you don't read the articles; go in to a fitter with a list of deliverables; ask in advance on the forum for recommendations; i don't know what else i can do for y'all!

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

FWIW: I'm basically a 6' wooden board. I have a bashed up cervical spine (literally) and I only get to probably 6" off the ground when bending over. And I still ride with 10cm drop.

---

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

it's rarely a problem, in my experience. which means it's sometimes a problem. just, it's rare. it's not this fellow's problem, is my guess.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I only see 9 fitters who have a portfolio listed unless I am missing something. Jim Manton doesn't have a portfolio and neither does Dave Luscan. Both do excellent fits.

Perhaps it needs to be a requirement of the FIST certification/recertification to maintain a portfolio?

---

blog

perhaps so. but i have something else in mind i'm working on.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I also tried to start a thread on this today that will hopefully gain some traction, but hasn't yet. I think most people's first inclination is to do a search on the forum rather than go through the avenues you have suggested such as the main page and searching the Local Listing section especially for people who may be new or don't come around as often and don't get to see all of the different suggestions you and others have made on how to get a good fit. I am one of these people but once I started hanging around for a bit and doing lots of reading I was able to pick up on all of the suggestions made through the knowledgeable people here.

I just linked a small one.

i predict at some point these two excellent fitters will have published portfolios. here are some of my fits, done at slowtwitch road shows. look at the position of the fellow who started this thread. ask yourself if it's likely he'd have ended up with his fit if i was his fitter. further, after he saw these videos, prior to seeing me, don't you think he'd have as a reasonable expectation that his fit would look like these others?

don't you think that's a reasonable standard for bike fitters to adhere to? otherwise, as you and others rightly put it, how do you know in advance of paying your money what it is you're buying?

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan, I don't need to look at your portfolio to know you would have done an excellent job on the OP's fit if he had gone to you. Same goes for Jim, Dave L, Ian M, and Trent Nix. They are all excellent fitters. I have done a lot of reading about bike fitting (mostly on here in the forums and your articles) and I have a pretty good idea of who I would trust to touch my bike fit and its not very many people (maybe 6 or 7 in the whole country).

Yes I think it is a completely reasonable standard to adhere to. I think it should be a requirement. I think you are misunderstanding my original comment in my first reply. I meant it to say that the number of fitters who had portfolios uploaded currently was not enough. But I knew there were excellent fitters out there that didn't have portfolios uploaded. We should be doing everything in our power to get fitters to upload their portfolios so people like the OP can make an informed decision when choosing a fitter.

A personal challenge I am having right now is that a lot of folks local to me (south florida) are asking me where they should get a bike fit. I personally flew out to Jim Manton in Cali for a fit but I realize not everyone is willing to do that. I have seen wayyy too many poor fits by the local fitters here. It's led me to not trust a single fitter in my state as I have yet to see a good fit by someone in Florida (it may be out there.... I just haven't personally seen it). A portfolio of those fitters in my area would be a huge benefit so I could make an informed recommendation to others. Until then, I'm not sure who or what to recommend. I did just see that Dave Luscan will do a skype/video fit with people remotely. Until I know for certain someone can do a good fit locally, I'm tempted to send my friends to Dave even if it's just over skype/video.

---

blog

Great. I personally don't need to see it as I've seen your work with Eric. But perhaps others may want to see it. Keep up the great work.

---

blog

i think i understand your point. and for YOU, yes, you know who to trust. but as you point out, many others don't (perhaps including the OP). hence my push to get fitters to adhere to a reasonable standard (such as publishing their work). but it's a long slog, and the reason only 9 (actually i think it's 13) have published portfolios is because YOU all (you, en masse) haven't required it.

if enough folks started telling fitters that they're not going to get any business unless they publish videos of their work (which isn't hard) they would start publishing videos of their work.

i wrote about this thread today. the article on the front page, i started and stopped it several times over the last 2 months, but today's thread finally got me off my duff.

nothing is static in this world. bike fitting moves forward. imperatives for bike fitters move forward. but that's the transitory stuff that changes quickly, with technology. what changes are phones. what doesn't, or shouldn't, change as quickly is communication. what changes is how we remanufacture the ability to perform returns on unwanted purchases. what doesn't change is the concept of good customer service.

the online portfolio is something fitters can now do. the concept behind that portfolio - granting customers comfort that you know what you're doing before they spend the money, like the OP did - that's old school customer service.

do you want to know the REAL reason fitters don't publish their work? too many of them don't have good work to publish. our portfolio field is an unmasking. it's a tool, but it's also a statement we're making. were i the end users in triathlon, that's a tool you can wield, if you care enough to use it.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think if a fitter is producing good work, they wouldn't be afraid to show it, so it should already be quite easy to find on social media. Want to see my work? Go to Instagram or Facebook. Heck, anyone and everyone can see how I fit one of the best triathletes in the world just last week; it's right there for the world to see or critique. Do I post every fit? Nah, I don't have time for that, and struggle to post on social media as is, but it's not hard to see, as you state, there's an orthodoxy to all my fits, and the fits from those I've taught. They all look fairly similar for a reason, and their foundation are all FIST. It might be FIST on steroids, but it's FIST at the core.
As for education and certifications? Man, I wish I had the answer to that. I certainly know how frustrating it is to see someone seemingly ignore what you've taught them. I will admit, though, I don't think any client has ever come to me because of a certain certification I've acquired. I know there are a few, and I mean just a few, who've come because I use Retul, but the overwhelming number of athletes who come to me are due to word of mouth. This is especially true of triathletes. I always joke that if you conduct a good fit for a Masters Crit Racer, he's not going to tell a soul. Not his teammates, not even his own mother; he want's no one else to have the same advantage. You conduct a good fit for a triathlete, and they tell everyone; it's all over social media!
Now, I'll be honest, I'm not super motivated to post up a portfolio on this site, but if it encourages others, in some small way, to do the same, I'll do it over the next few days.

---

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

OP...

You have a number of VERY credible fitters on this thread who have told you that your fitter did not do the job you paid him to do. I would should him this thread and ask for a refund, or at the very least, a refit. If he does not refund or refit, call him out on it. You paid 20% of what you want to pay for a new bike on something that is not worth anything.

I would think you likely would have ended up with a better position if "fitted" by an experienced bike store technician just eyeballing your position. And that's not a good thing!

I understand fitters these days use social media (Instagram) to show off their work and it is the perfect tool for that.
It is probably for the simplicity of posting and also the wider / different reach through that media.

The database makes it easy enough to just post a link.
If the fitters are too lazy to even update the database or do not post/have SM accounts to show their work then I would question whether they are fit (pun intended) to run a business.

Sorry for the hijack but I have short question to the bike fitters gathered in this thread:




I see the long-leggedness mentioned a lot in fits. I have never found an explanation or formula that explains what makes you long-legged/short-torsoed and what short-legged/long-torsoed. That in my opinion plays majorly in Dan's mentioning about Orthodoxy. Isn't that the first parameter to find the first-shot-fit for a client walking in a fit studio before maybe flexibility and / or personal preferences/comfort?
Quote from Dan's article from today: "What we have are micro differences, but macro samenesses"

Anybody care to share some wisdom? What is the normal leg/torso ratio?
I am 6-2 with 35.8" crotch. What am I?

If that isn't terrible, can you give an example of a fit that is?


A horse?

Challenge accepted!

---

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Wow. Just wow.

Jeepers a shop fitted someone like that?!!

I see the op has been retul fitted so you would think, at the least, that would take some guess work out for fitters?!!! But the fit seems way too high on the front as is the saddle height as mentioned.

Hard to say - people "adjust" their fit all the time so it's impossible to know whether a shop is really to blame.

I've seen a few good fits I've done look awful due to rider tinkering, other shops "expert" tinkering, or just crap posture.

And to your point - Retul can be used to take out the guess work, but it has to be used correctly. It's just a tool, and requires the application of knowledge and skill to be used correctly. It wasn't, in this case.

I was a "fit by numbers" fitter when I was new to fitting and I can look back on a lot of my old fits and see good results because of it (there were some poor fits mixed in too, for sure). But I also aggressively listened to and incorporated rider feedback and compared my fits to better fitters, and over time I was able to learn enough to understand a little bit about why the numbers worked.

I tend to react negatively when someone tells me bike fit is an art - it's a science, for sure. If there is artistry, it's convincing a rider to defeat their confirmation bias that leads them to prefer a poor positionor manipulating existing equipment to get the result I'm looking for.

---

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

You are nearly perfectly average
For someone your height


Peoples legs get longer as they get taller (presumably you only need so much space for organs)
Note that the trendlines make it look like Women have longer legs at the same height - the suppressed zeroes on the graph are magnifying a tiny difference. The in-gender variation is much larger than the between gender variation so it's worthless to make any generalisations about differences between genders.

We must be allowed to use wow, just wow on this??
Though I think I've fitted some people who've been to the same place (or one that employs the same philosophy, given the distance I am from your market)

This is one of the problems with assuming that technology— in this case, Retul — takes the place of fitting expertise. Is your fitter certified by a reputable school (like Slowtwitch)? Does he/she have an education in physiology? Are there triathletes who can vouch for the fitter? If not, you may be wasting your time and money. If yes, fitting can be the best thing you ever did for your cycling.

In this case, the other experts here have already pointed out some of the problems: (1) ability to touch your toes means you have at least average flexibility in low back/hamstrings, which are normally the muscles that limit aerobar drop; (2) based on the photo your seat is quite a bit too high — I would drop it 1-2 cm, which means you can lower the frame & pad stack by 1-2 cm even with no change in torso angle. Keep in mind that, as you learn to ride aero, you’ll probably stretch out slightly, which means it makes sense to start with a short stem angled up — then later you can move to a longer, flatter stem.

---

Doug Baumgarten
Director, Sportfit Lab
IBFI Level 3 Bike Fitter
Marymount U. Triathlon Coach
Exercise Physiologist

Just link your instagram page as your portfolio.

---

blog

He is more aero than the OP :-)

Yeah, I'd never looked at it to realize it's a link. Kept seeing it referred to as "uploading" so assumed you had to upload videos in to your profile, which is something I wasn't the least bit motivated to do. Tells you how often I look at the profile.
Never has someone said to me, "Yeah, I was looking at your Fitter profile on Slowtwitch and decided to book an appointment."
Honestly, I don't look or maintain any "Fitter Profile" anywhere. It's just never brought me business. Does Retul still list me as an instructor? Master Fitter? Asshole? I don't know and don't care. Not enough eyes looking.

---

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Maybe fitters should be prepared (and clients should feel free to ask) to provide prospective clients examples of their fits for similar individuals. For example, a 50 year old woman may see some of these fits of 30 year old super skinny super fast guys and think this fitter is not applicable to me. I think that sort of client would really like it if the fitter could show some examples of people they have fit that are similar to this client, that could be valuable and a social media link does not do a great job of this. Maybe the next time you update your "What to Look for in a Fitter" guide, you should add don't be afraid to ask for examples of fits for clients similar to yourself. And fitters should advertise "I have fits lots of different athletes, probably someone that looks a lot like you, feel free to ask for examples!"

I know that a good fitter is a good fitter and that there is nothing fundamentally different between fitting men and women, between fast and slow, etc, but I don't know if everyone knows/believes that. It is kinda cool to think that this is a sport where for not a crazy amount of money, you can have the same service done by the same person that does that service for people at the top of the sport.

i agree. did you look at that link i produced that you quoted? i don't think you'll see a bunch of 30 year old super skinny super fast guys. in fact, i have those super skinny fast guy videos and i specifically left them off, as they are really not representative of most folks.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Where are you reading this? Every dynamic fit bike that I've seen has adjustable cranks. Even the Serotta Size Cycle I was using back in the '90s was fitted with adjustable cranks. Maybe you're thinking of the "fitters" whose tools consist only of your bike and a trainer...

---

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

Is he actually sitting on the saddle or pushing himself all the way up out of the saddle for whatever reason and is it that just visible little piece sticking out midway back of his thigh the back end of the saddle? Not that it changes the quality of the fit, but was seriously wondering how he would have looked cycling if that was his actual saddle height.

Jeroen

---

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

That's mid-pedal stroke. We don't do any static photos - we just capture the frame at the bottom of the pedal stroke.

---

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Yeh, this is what i wondered. The back wheel is spinning, but that is also the case if someone stops pedalling and he just liftee from the toes up out of the saddle. But if he sits on the saddle it must have worked like a contraceptive for him ;-).

---

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

It's hard to have saddle pain when you can't feel anything at all!

---

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Hahaha that is true

Jeroen

---

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

Well, to be fair: maybe he borrowed the bike.

;-)

---

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

Thx for your helpful comment MattyK

Thank you cyclenutz!
Great data. Very helpful.