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The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube
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I've been taking a closer look at 3T bikes and the amount of BS I see is too much. 3T claims that their Exploring bike is "aero" even though it has a huge box shaped downtube, not even any effort at faking a "kamn tail" where the tube is still suppose to taper at least to some degree. Instead we get a square box that is somehow "aero". Pure marketing.




http://road.cc/...exploro-ltd-frameset

And don't even get me started about their so called aero seat post ad seat tube. Bernoulli is spinning in it's turbulence!
Last edited by: Hybridlete: Sep 7, 17 11:52
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe like Zipp, they have discovered the amazing aerodynamics of biomimicry, this time emulating the airflow of a hammerhead shark............
Last edited by: SBRcanuck: Sep 7, 17 11:49
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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I dont know, the variable here is what does a 700x35mm knobby tire do to the air? Does it disrupt it enough that there's no use in trying to reattach the air? That's what they're saying.

Only the windtunnel knows....

Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

Vintage Cervelo: A Resource
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [jeremyb] [ In reply to ]
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jeremyb wrote:
I dont know, the variable here is what does a 700x35mm knobby tire do to the air? Does it disrupt it enough that there's no use in trying to reattach the air? That's what they're saying.

Only the windtunnel knows....

Yeah, right. Let's make the downtube a blunt box shape with no taper and make it 3X the size of the widest tire you can fit on the thing and still call it aero! It's a brick. It looks like a brick, quacks like a brick, and moves through the air like a brick.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Look at some other photos, leading edge of that downtube isnt square.... show me a more aero cyclocross bike...

https://twohubs.blogspot.com/2016/12/3t-exploro-team-shimano-dura-ace-r9100.html













Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

Vintage Cervelo: A Resource
Last edited by: jeremyb: Sep 7, 17 12:22
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [jeremyb] [ In reply to ]
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This guys whole MO is Knee jerk.

2019 T-Rex Tri Series
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Also, the downtube is not the leading edge of the bike.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Hybridlete wrote:
And don't even get me started about their so called aero seat post ad seat tube. Bernoulli is spinning in it's turbulence!

I'm beginning to think you don't understand turbulence or its impact on aerodynamics. What does a turbulent wake do to cause drag, in your opinion?
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [jeremyb] [ In reply to ]
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Hybridlete wasn't suggested the leading edge was square, but rather observing that the trailing edge was. The shape of the trailing edge turns out to be rather crucial for aerodynamics, though many find that unintuitive. I was under the impression that the squared-off 3T tubes were what are called Kamm tails, which can be aerodynamically beneficial, but in fact they do appear to be surprisingly square.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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i can't be sure, but i think the OP is referring to the exploro. i believe i'm having dinner with the half-owner of 3T at interbike. i'll let him know he doesn't know anything about aerodynamics, which means he probably didn't when he designed all cervelo's bikes up thru the P5 when he founded and owned that company.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Can you ask him why they aren't marketing the Exploro as the most aero Tri bike ever? Just look at how wide those wheels and how truncated those tubes are! It's to next evolution of aero! At what point did they stop trying and just start mocking athlete stupidity?
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Hybridlete wrote:
Can you ask him why they aren't marketing the Exploro as the most aero Tri bike ever? Just look at how wide those wheels and how truncated those tubes are! It's to next evolution of aero! At what point did they stop trying and just start mocking athlete stupidity?

i can't be sure, and i can't speak for them, but i suspect they're not marketing the exploro as the most aero tri bike ever because the exploro is a gravel plus bike. i think the idea was to make an all-rounder as aero as is practicable while retaining all the imperatives that attack to a bike of that style. how well they succeeded i don't know because i haven't tested the bike for its aerodynamic qualities.

cervelo made pretty contained and moderate aero claims about its P5X, only referring to its performance compared to its existing P5. the company and the bike got roundly ridiculed often in the most ungentlemanly terms, by folks who were beyond certain the bike was an aero dog. and then we found out it is very possible the most aero bike you can buy for triathlon.

so, sometimes companies make silly claims. sometimes they don't. i think the folks behind the exploro have a track record that stands up.

but don't let that get in the way of a good old fashioned roast!

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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why do ya'll keep responded to this troll?
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]
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ahhchon wrote:
why do ya'll keep responded to this troll?


Because after saying "Giro Advantage 2" and "latex tubes" 1,000 times one looks for a little spice in their ST life ;)
Last edited by: GreenPlease: Sep 7, 17 19:09
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]
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ahhchon wrote:
why do ya'll keep responded to this troll?

At least he isn't talking about girly legs.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Hybridlete wrote:
Can you ask him why they aren't marketing the Exploro as the most aero Tri bike ever? Just look at how wide those wheels and how truncated those tubes are! It's to next evolution of aero! At what point did they stop trying and just start mocking athlete stupidity?

If Slowman invented the tri bike, the guy behind the 3T bike perfected the TT and tri bike and probably has more more victories from riders using his aero bikes than any other company in the past couple decades... but carry on, sir. Personally, I would defer to his design judgement more than just about anyone else.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_Vroomen
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [wetswimmer99] [ In reply to ]
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wetswimmer99 wrote:
If Slowman invented the tri bike, the guy behind the 3T bike perfected the TT and tri bike and probably has more more victories from riders using his aero bikes than any other company in the past couple decades... but carry on, sir. Personally, I would defer to his design judgement more than just about anyone else.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_Vroomen

When was the last time a Cervelo bike even won a TT? Cervelo hasn't been relevant in time trials since forever now.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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There are a couple of National TT champions riding on Cervelo, male and female.

Just sayin'...
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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I'm the first to agree that there's a hell of a lot of marketing nonsense thrown around by the bike industry, and especially in relation to aerodynamics, but you sir, are not helping.
You know a very little and wield it as though it were an all conquering sword.

The reality is quite different and in my opinion you've become quite tiresome very quickly. Go back to the thread linked below, which you bailed out of after making a fool of yourself and prove you can actually make a valid argument, defend it or concede your errors when you're wrong. If you can't do that, I reckon you're wasting everyone's time.


Giant Goes There: Says Their Disc Brakes Are More Aero Than Calipers
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
...i'll let him know he doesn't know anything about aerodynamics, which means he probably didn't when he designed all cervelo's bikes up thru the P5 when he founded and owned that company.

That's why he hired Damon... ;)

All joking aside, why would anyone care about the aerodynamics of a gravel / all-around bike??
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcanuck wrote:
All joking aside, why would anyone care about the aerodynamics of a gravel / all-around bike??

Because it moves through the air...?
:-)

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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Who invited you?! :)

Hopefully they are using ufo chain lube for the extra watt.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcanuck wrote:
...All joking aside, why would anyone care about the aerodynamics of a gravel / all-around bike??
Well if it's an "all-around bike" then everything may be relevant at one time or another. No?
Surely much of the attraction of this type of bike is that you can use it off-road, on road, wherever. So it's not irrelevant.

And the idea that aerodynamics is irrelevant at certain speeds is wrong anyway. It would be fair to say that in low speed cases it probably shouldn't be a priority but that doesn;t necessarily mean one shouldn't care.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the aero test data yet:

https://www.3t.bike/...O/realfast-graph.jpg

So:
They gave it 40mm wide knobbly tyres instead of 28mm mostly slick road tyres
They added 2 x750ml bottles
They added mud rather than it being clean

And it was STILL more aero than the base frame. It would be nice if they told us what the base frame was, but taken at face value it seems reasonably impressive.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
SBRcanuck wrote:
...All joking aside, why would anyone care about the aerodynamics of a gravel / all-around bike??

....

And the idea that aerodynamics is irrelevant at certain speeds is wrong anyway. It would be fair to say that in low speed cases it probably shouldn't be a priority but that doesn;t necessarily mean one shouldn't care.

I'm not arguing that.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what this bike will be used for. My point was, for situations where someone is using an 'all around' bike, do they care about saving watts?

Carry on. :)
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcanuck wrote:
Ai_1 wrote:
SBRcanuck wrote:
...All joking aside, why would anyone care about the aerodynamics of a gravel / all-around bike??

....

And the idea that aerodynamics is irrelevant at certain speeds is wrong anyway. It would be fair to say that in low speed cases it probably shouldn't be a priority but that doesn;t necessarily mean one shouldn't care.


I'm not arguing that.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what this bike will be used for. My point was, for situations where someone is using an 'all around' bike, do they care about saving watts?

Carry on. :)
Why wouldn't they?
Especially, if they bought a 3T Enduro. It's hardly the budget option. If you're not bothered about optimisation you'd surely have gotten yourself one of the other, much less expensive but equally functional options?
Personally, I can't see myself ever spending that sort of money on an all-rounder. But if I did it would be because I wanted the best of all worlds. I can't see how any prospective customer would think as you do and still be interested in the bike!
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Like I said, maybe I'm misunderstanding what the bike is intended for. I don't care if I make it to work/coffee shop/fun trail ride, 10 seconds faster than usual.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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I don't do gravel races, but if I did - I'd want the fastest bike I could get.

Right now - this and the UP are probably it.

And if I were going for the 1 bike "quiver" for cx, gravel, and road - I'd definitely prefer the more aero option.

All things being equal, why *wouldn't* you want to save watts where you can?


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcanuck wrote:
Like I said, maybe I'm misunderstanding what the bike is intended for. I don't care if I make it to work/coffee shop/fun trail ride, 10 seconds faster than usual.

Then why buy this bike?

Those considering buying this bike will most likely care. And those are the only opinions that count to 3T!
Regardless whether they plan to race on gravel/trails or just want the fastest most versatile all-rounder they can get, aerodynamics almost certainly count to some extent for the majority of potential customers.
Last edited by: Ai_1: Sep 8, 17 5:11
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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I'm trying to answer your question, but I don't think you're getting me..

OK - why would I personally buy this bike - because I think it is a very cool looking bike, and probably a blast to ride.
For ME PERSONALLY, if I were shopping for an adventure bike, which this is basically marketed as on their website, aerodynamics would be pretty much the bottom of my list of priorities.

But everyone is different I guess. Again, I do think it is a very cool bike, would love to have one.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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Gravel races can be blisteringly fast in spite of conditions. This not a thing for leasurely bike path rides
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcanuck wrote:
I'm trying to answer your question, but I don't think you're getting me..

OK - why would I personally buy this bike - because I think it is a very cool looking bike, and probably a blast to ride.
For ME PERSONALLY, if I were shopping for an adventure bike, which this is basically marketed as on their website, aerodynamics would be pretty much the bottom of my list of priorities.

But everyone is different I guess. Again, I do think it is a very cool bike, would love to have one.

I have a lot of experience doing mixed condition races where a bike like this would be the ideal tool for the job. Like others have mentioned, aerodynamics certainly would be an advantage for these type of races. Some of these races are very long (4+ hours) and the likelihood of riding solo for the majority of the time is much higher compared to a road race.

The Exploro also has a decidedly road leaning geometry, which in my opinion, makes it quite the mixed condition race bike under the right rider.

This doesn't mean the bike is for you personally, but it's an amazing bike for it's intended purpose and the intended rider.

_______________________________________________
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
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iamuwere wrote:
Gravel races can be blisteringly fast in spite of conditions. This not a thing for leasurely bike path rides


Correct, but it is also great for the leisurely rides too. With big tires and low pressure, this bike is SO smooth over chattery asphalt.

At the 200 mile Dirty Kanza race, Mat Stephens averaged over 19mph, and that is based on elapsed time, so it includes his pit stops. At Gravel Worlds a few weeks ago the leaders averaged over 20mph based on elapsed time.

So gravel racers are typically riding over 20mph for a LONG time. Most gravel roads have 2-4 relatively smooth lines to ride on, with the rest of the road having chunkier gravel. Smooth is fast, chunky is slow. If you are riding in a cross wind, drafting is not effective. On a paved road, you would echelon out in a cross wind to get maximum draft. On gravel, if you echelon out you'll be riding in the chunky gravel, which is slow. So while riding single file in a cross wind, you want your bike to be as aero as possible. (and i don't understand why you wouldn't want it as aero as possible everywhere else)

There's a reason why the fastest gravel racers also use aero bars. Mat won DK with aero bars. Colin won GW with aero bars. Actually, i think the top 7 at GW all had aero bars (front door brag, i was 7th). A lot of these races get thinned out quickly and you spend a lot of time in a very small group or by yourself, chasing or being chased. Aero matters.

The 3T Exploro is a very fast bike, even on the road. With Panaracer Gravel King SK (knobby) tires in any width (32, 35, 38, or 40) my 3T seems about equal to my Tarmac with 700x25 training tires (bontrager AW3s, gatorskins, specialized turbos, etc). I can't tell you for sure if it is the frame aerodynamics or just that the tires aren't as slow as they look, but I have no problem crushing dreams on every group ride whether I'm on my 3T or my road Specialized :)
Last edited by: sxevegan: Sep 8, 17 7:16
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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Steve Irwin wrote:
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the aero test data yet:

https://www.3t.bike/...O/realfast-graph.jpg

So:
They gave it 40mm wide knobbly tyres instead of 28mm mostly slick road tyres
They added 2 x750ml bottles
They added mud rather than it being clean

And it was STILL more aero than the base frame. It would be nice if they told us what the base frame was, but taken at face value it seems reasonably impressive.


There are so many problems with 3T'S claim and test that it is sad:

1- Having round bottles on blunt tubed frames is commonly known to improve aero dynamics because of the well known aspect ratio elongation. Only putting the bottles on their 3T Exploro frame instead of also on the test frame is being dishonest here.

2- What gigantic round tubed frame are they even talking about? No one makes a round down tube that big. Seems like it is their own test frame with the worse design they could build.

3- Where are the error bars on their results showing the measurement variability? And how many measurements were taken? Looks like their numbers jump up and down and the difference between the worst frame the Exploro is within the margin of error. Did 3T only show the data for a single test run where they got the numbers to make it look good? And why only up to 15 degrees yaw instead of the expected 20 degrees that Flo has shown that tests should be carried out to?

4- Mud on the Exploro but not on the test frame? WTF? Did they sculpt the mud into aerodynamic shapes or something? Have something rough like mud on blunt shaped tubes like on the Exploro is widely known to improve aerodynamics because of the dimpled golf ball effect. Again, another incredulous action by 3T.
Last edited by: Hybridlete: Sep 8, 17 7:30
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [sxevegan] [ In reply to ]
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sxevegan wrote:
The 3T Exploro is a very fast bike, even on the road. With Panaracer Gravel King SK (knobby) tires in any width (32, 35, 38, or 40) my 3T seems about equal to my Tarmac with 700x25 training tires (bontrager AW3s, gatorskins, specialized turbos, etc). I can't tell you for sure if it is the frame aerodynamics or just that the tires aren't as slow as they look, but I have no problem crushing dreams on every group ride whether I'm on my 3T or my road Specialized :)

You should disclose if you are a 3T shill because your post is incredulous and looks like an ad they would put out.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Hybridlete wrote:

You should disclose if you are a 3T shill because your post is incredulous and looks like an ad they would put out.

Shill - an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others.

I wouldn't call 3T a hawker, gambler, or swindler. They create great products that are loved by many many people. I don't think I've ever met somebody who had a problem with the quality of 3t stems or handlebars.

3T is a sponsor of our team, and through that I received a good deal on the frame. That doesn't change the fact that the bike is fast on road and gravel. I've used 3T products on many of my bikes for many years without sponsorship. I was already a believer in what they were making, and also a believer in Gerald and Super Dave. My TT bike is a p3c and my previous cx/gravel rig was a Felt.

I don't feel like it is necessary to list every sponsor of me or my teams in every post. Sorry if I lead you astray by not doing that.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Hybridlete wrote:
...another incredulous action by 3T...
Hybridlete wrote:
...your post is incredulous and looks like...
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means (and don't bother citing the now obsolete 17th century usage equating it to "incredible").

-Eric
Last edited by: EricTheBiking: Sep 8, 17 8:10
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [EricTheBiking] [ In reply to ]
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Incredulous means unbelievable.

You are incredulous.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Hybridlete wrote:
Incredulous means unbelievable.

You are incredulous.

No, it means unbelieving. It hasn't meant unbelievable for a solid 300 years. But, by all means, continue to misuse it, as it adds quite a lot to the general picture painted by your statements :)

-Eric
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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no. it means unbelieving. not unbelievable.

You are incredulous of 3T's claims. The claims themselves are not incredulous.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
The claims themselves are not incredulous.

Perhaps the claims are incredulous that they're being misrepresented like that! LOL

-E
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [EricTheBiking] [ In reply to ]
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EricTheBiking wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
The claims themselves are not incredulous.


Perhaps the claims are incredulous that they're being misrepresented like that! LOL

-E

I particularly like how he used the exact definition that you informed him was obsolete.

Maybe he's really really old...

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
I particularly like how he used the exact definition that you informed him was obsolete.

Maybe he's really really old...

It's like the people who says "supposably" instead of "supposedly". Supposably actually IS a word, but ignorantly fumbling into an odd or obsolete usage is not the same as knowing you've misspoken or conceiving the difference between the two. :) :) :)

-E
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcanuck wrote:
Like I said, maybe I'm misunderstanding what the bike is intended for. I don't care if I make it to work/coffee shop/fun trail ride, 10 seconds faster than usual.


Race the Lost and Found 100mi ----- as Specialized says Aero is Everything

http://www.lostandfoundbikeride.com/

Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

Vintage Cervelo: A Resource
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [EricTheBiking] [ In reply to ]
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EricTheBiking wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
I particularly like how he used the exact definition that you informed him was obsolete.

Maybe he's really really old...

It's like the people who says "supposably" instead of "supposedly". Supposably actually IS a word, but ignorantly fumbling into an odd or obsolete usage is not the same as knowing you've misspoken or conceiving the difference between the two. :) :) :)

-E

I'll leave you two to have a gay, old time.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Hybridlete wrote:
EricTheBiking wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
I particularly like how he used the exact definition that you informed him was obsolete.

Maybe he's really really old...


It's like the people who says "supposably" instead of "supposedly". Supposably actually IS a word, but ignorantly fumbling into an odd or obsolete usage is not the same as knowing you've misspoken or conceiving the difference between the two. :) :) :)

-E


I'll leave you two to have a gay, old time.

Yet another improper sentence. Inconceivable!

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Most of you are missing the point. It's not just whether the tube shapes are aero. There are other questions that this bike answers that make it a bike worth buying and owning and riding. Does it fit? What is the geometry? How does it ride? Handle well? What kind of use cases make sense for where you live and train and ride? Does it compare favorably in price to others that meet the same need? Is it beautiful (i.e. do you love looking at it and taking pictures of it)? Is it being sold by a company that doesn't treat customers like shit? All that is important, and if this thing is even a few watts more aero than the closest competitor -- which I think is possible given the pedigree of the guy behind it, even if we have no real data to say so other than some guy on an internet message board that swears it's as fast as his Tarmac -- then why wouldn't that little bit of extra speed be great icing on the cake?

I have a flat Zipp race bar on my Exploro, and that's just because I like to go fast. I do want to go where I'm going faster, whether it's a "fun trail ride" or crushing it on my commuter weaving in and out of cars and shit on my way to swim practice. That's not the most important element of every bike or this bike, not by a long stretch, but the aero aspect is a plus.

One other related data point I will add that may or may not be meaningful. My peak speed both this year and last year is the same on my TT bike as it is on my Exploro (on gravel) (~56 mph). There is no way in hell that's because either my position on these bikes or the bikes themselves are equally aero. It's because the thing rides amazingly. There is no bike I feel more confident across more conditions, including on the road. That's a big plus too.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [sxevegan] [ In reply to ]
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sxevegan wrote:
I wouldn't call 3T a hawker, gambler, or swindler. They create great products that are loved by many many people. I don't think I've ever met somebody who had a problem with the quality of 3t stems or handlebars.

Not badmouthing 3T (they definitely aren't swindlers) - I have a 3T cockpit on my BMC Time Machine, and it's great. The wheels though? 3T Orbis II C50 Teams, to be precise, are pretty damn mediocre. They make some great stuff, and some not great stuff. Is the Exploro some of the "great stuff"? Maybe, but I think there's cause to question that until I see/ride one.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
Most of you are missing the point. It's not just whether the tube shapes are aero. There are other questions that this bike answers that make it a bike worth buying and owning and riding. Does it fit? What is the geometry? How does it ride? Handle well? What kind of use cases make sense for where you live and train and ride? Does it compare favorably in price to others that meet the same need? Is it beautiful (i.e. do you love looking at it and taking pictures of it)? Is it being sold by a company that doesn't treat customers like shit? All that is important, and if this thing is even a few watts more aero than the closest competitor -- which I think is possible given the pedigree of the guy behind it, even if we have no real data to say so other than some guy on an internet message board that swears it's as fast as his Tarmac -- then why wouldn't that little bit of extra speed be great icing on the cake?

I have a flat Zipp race bar on my Exploro, and that's just because I like to go fast. I do want to go where I'm going faster, whether it's a "fun trail ride" or crushing it on my commuter weaving in and out of cars and shit on my way to swim practice. That's not the most important element of every bike or this bike, not by a long stretch, but the aero aspect is a plus.

One other related data point I will add that may or may not be meaningful. My peak speed both this year and last year is the same on my TT bike as it is on my Exploro (on gravel) (~56 mph). There is no way in hell that's because either my position on these bikes or the bikes themselves are equally aero. It's because the thing rides amazingly. There is no bike I feel more confident across more conditions, including on the road. That's a big plus too.

Wow, your post is even more of a 3T ad than the previous shill.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcanuck wrote:
for situations where someone is using an 'all around' bike, do they care about saving watts?

yes

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Hybridlete wrote:
Wow, your post is even more of a 3T ad than the previous shill.

I do admit I have a long history of shilling for companies in the performance cycling space.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Cervelo seems to do quite well on the track.


Oh, and I have an exploro - it’s fantastic.

It is not perfect, but it is the bike I take when we road trip around Colorado. With 2.1in 650b gravel tires you can go just about anywhere.

I am going to ride mine on a fast road ride tomorrow with 28mm tires.

It wouldn’t be my only bike, but it is a great toy to have in the garage.
Last edited by: Orbilius: Sep 8, 17 10:56
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i can't be sure, but i think the OP is referring to the exploro. i believe i'm having dinner with the half-owner of 3T at interbike. i'll let him know he doesn't know anything about aerodynamics, which means he probably didn't when he designed all cervelo's bikes up thru the P5 when he founded and owned that company.

Let's also ignore the wind tunnel data published at the launch of the frameset over a year ago.

I hope to see you at IB, too!

-SD

https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]
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SuperDave wrote:


Let's also ignore the wind tunnel data published at the launch of the frameset over a year ago.


Good advice since I don't think you can easily answer my questions about that data:

Steve Irwin wrote:
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the aero test data yet:

https://www.3t.bike/...O/realfast-graph.jpg

So:
They gave it 40mm wide knobbly tyres instead of 28mm mostly slick road tyres
They added 2 x750ml bottles
They added mud rather than it being clean

And it was STILL more aero than the base frame. It would be nice if they told us what the base frame was, but taken at face value it seems reasonably impressive.


There are so many problems with 3T'S claim and test that it is sad:

1- Having round bottles on blunt tubed frames is commonly known to improve aero dynamics because of the well known aspect ratio elongation. Only putting the bottles on their 3T Exploro frame instead of also on the test frame is being dishonest here.

2- What gigantic round tubed frame are they even talking about? No one makes a round down tube that big. Seems like it is their own test frame with the worse design they could build.

3- Where are the error bars on their results showing the measurement variability? And how many measurements were taken? Looks like their numbers jump up and down and the difference between the worst frame the Exploro is within the margin of error. Did 3T only show the data for a single test run where they got the numbers to make it look good? And why only up to 15 degrees yaw instead of the expected 20 degrees that Flo has shown that tests should be carried out to?

4- Mud on the Exploro but not on the test frame? WTF? Did they sculpt the mud into aerodynamic shapes or something? Have something rough like mud on blunt shaped tubes like on the Exploro is widely known to improve aerodynamics because of the dimpled golf ball effect. Again, another incredulous action by 3T.

5- And such widely different sized tires mounted between the Exploro and the test frame means that all of 3T's data from this setup is invalid.
Last edited by: Hybridlete: Sep 8, 17 11:03
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
Hybridlete wrote:
Wow, your post is even more of a 3T ad than the previous shill.


I do admit I have a long history of shilling for companies in the performance cycling space.

I was thinking recently that kileyay is the best case for Hybridlete. An earlier iteration of kileyay became infamous for provocative, anti-shilling posts, that were widely perceived as trolling, attacking various aspects of the industry, yet often stimulated productive discussions, and then he morphed into backing his words with actions that were perceived as adding tremendous value to this community. So far, Hybridlete seems like a more trolling, less substantive version of pre-kiley, though I'd also argue his posts have sparked some useful, and certainly entertaining, discussions. There's something meta about the two of them finally crossing paths here.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [EricTheBiking] [ In reply to ]
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EricTheBiking wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
I particularly like how he used the exact definition that you informed him was obsolete.

Maybe he's really really old...


It's like the people who says "supposably" instead of "supposedly". Supposably actually IS a word, but ignorantly fumbling into an odd or obsolete usage is not the same as knowing you've misspoken or conceiving the difference between the two. :) :) :)

-E
This made me smile bigly - I mean, big league.
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [sxevegan] [ In reply to ]
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sxevegan wrote:
iamuwere wrote:
Gravel races can be blisteringly fast in spite of conditions. This not a thing for leasurely bike path rides


Correct, but it is also great for the leisurely rides too. With big tires and low pressure, this bike is SO smooth over chattery asphalt.

At the 200 mile Dirty Kanza race, Mat Stephens averaged over 19mph, and that is based on elapsed time, so it includes his pit stops. At Gravel Worlds a few weeks ago the leaders averaged over 20mph based on elapsed time.

So gravel racers are typically riding over 20mph for a LONG time. Most gravel roads have 2-4 relatively smooth lines to ride on, with the rest of the road having chunkier gravel. Smooth is fast, chunky is slow. If you are riding in a cross wind, drafting is not effective. On a paved road, you would echelon out in a cross wind to get maximum draft. On gravel, if you echelon out you'll be riding in the chunky gravel, which is slow. So while riding single file in a cross wind, you want your bike to be as aero as possible. (and i don't understand why you wouldn't want it as aero as possible everywhere else)

There's a reason why the fastest gravel racers also use aero bars. Mat won DK with aero bars. Colin won GW with aero bars. Actually, i think the top 7 at GW all had aero bars (front door brag, i was 7th). A lot of these races get thinned out quickly and you spend a lot of time in a very small group or by yourself, chasing or being chased. Aero matters.

The 3T Exploro is a very fast bike, even on the road. With Panaracer Gravel King SK (knobby) tires in any width (32, 35, 38, or 40) my 3T seems about equal to my Tarmac with 700x25 training tires (bontrager AW3s, gatorskins, specialized turbos, etc). I can't tell you for sure if it is the frame aerodynamics or just that the tires aren't as slow as they look, but I have no problem crushing dreams on every group ride whether I'm on my 3T or my road Specialized :)

What race is GW?
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Re: The 3T Exploring Bike Claims To Be Aero With a Box Shaped Downtube [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Hybridlete wrote:
I've been taking a closer look at 3T bikes and the amount of BS I see is too much. 3T claims that their Exploring bike is "aero" even though it has a huge box shaped downtube, not even any effort at faking a "kamn tail" where the tube is still suppose to taper at least to some degree. Instead we get a square box that is somehow "aero". Pure marketing.




http://road.cc/...exploro-ltd-frameset

And don't even get me started about their so called aero seat post ad seat tube. Bernoulli is spinning in it's turbulence!

"what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
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