That's a fantastic article.

Pinker is one of those brilliant minds that writes to a popular audience. Even put out a style manual, if you could call it that. You don't have to agree with him -- he doesn't ask for that. But he challenges you.

Irregardless, it's a mute point.

Like, I TOTALLY agree! Fer sure!

Normalizing, and thus, accepting, poor grammar should be a capital offense. It is what lead to horrible habits like improperly interchanging "because" and "since." "Since" is a measure of time. "Because" implies cause and effect. No, it is not ok to interchange them.

"Since the Packers are playing tonight, I am watching." NO!

"Because the Packers are playing tonight, I am watching." BINGO!

It also leads to things like the gross overuse of the word "that."

"I want to tell you that the sky the blue." NO!

"I want to tell you the sky is blue." THERE YOU GO!

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

"Poor grammar?" Notwithstanding the jest in your post, that comment makes me think that you don't know what the term mean. This has nothing to do with grammar. Arguably usage, but not grammar.

Notwithstanding the tongue in cheek nature of my response, I disagree. Grammar is "the whole system and structure of a language or of languages in general." That would certainly seem to include usage, especially in written form.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

A few observations

1) The writer is an idiot. Fantastic still retains its meaning when used colloquially i.e. too good to be true => unbelievable => fantastic.

2) Pinker is Canadian from Quebec. Enough said.

3) His interpretation is basically let's lower the bar to lowest common denominator for the uneducated.

4) I always thought people were saying littoral

5) I could literally care less.

You probably should double down and study it a bit more.

QED

In addition, Pinker < Windy with regard to idiocy.

Nope. I'm good.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Ignorance is bliss.

I literally didn't realize I needed to use pink. (Well except the first point)

I wouldn't know.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I totally understand. You're a Brewers fan.

And you voluntarily live in Californistan, so, I hold you to a much, much lower standard. In fact, I think windywave is the only one I hold to a lower standard.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Yeah but Illinois is a really fucking low bar.

As an English major who makes his living as a writer, I've come to believe that we should view grammar as a tool to help us express ourselves, not as a rulebook that must be blindly followed without exception. Stephen Fry has an interesting take on the topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY

Aren't you talking about the meaning of words not the system or structure of language?

Languages constantly evolve and change, this bothers some people.

I know. It still bothers me when people say, " I am doing really good" or Jim and me are going to the beach

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I literally corrected your sentences in my mind as soon as I perused them.

Language evolves, and that's fine. The issue I have with "literally" is that the new usage means the exact opposite of the original usage. If you adopt the meaning of "figuratively" for the term "literally," then the word "literally" literally becomes meaningless.

"I literally pounded him into the ground." So, are you saying you actually did, or you didn't?

It's not like "fantastic," which used to mean something fantasy-like and now has the added meaning of "terrific," since the new meaning is an offshoot of the original meaning and not a negation of it.

He literally called me a moron for pointing that out

Notwithstanding the really supercool back and forth between you and JSA, but you indicated that this was a grammar issue in the title of the thread.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Language first and foremost is a mechanism for communicating information to others. If you change the rules, you are miscommunicating unless the receiver understands that you are using a different rulebook and can unambiguously determine the new set of rules. Therein lies the danger, not to mention putting the onus on the receiver, rather than the speaker, to do the work of ensuring that the message is received as expected.

Exceptions can be made, as long as they don't introduce ambiguity or erroneous communication.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Wrong. I used the term "grammar maven," which refers to a certain class of uptight people who complain about what they perceive to he misused grammar, usage, etc. I guess I could have used the term "grammar, usage, etc. maven,," but that would be ridiculous.

I think your posts on this subject are fantastic.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Except that :"literally" has not taken on the meaning of "figuratively," even when used to refer to something figurative. Rather, "literally" has taken the form of an emphatic. And in that sense, it hasn't become meaningless.

So when someone says "I literally pounded him ground,' nobody is confused as to whether he actually did or didn't. They know that he didn't because of context. "Literally" wasn't used to clarify that the statement was figurative, as if there was some question about whether it occurred or not. It's meant for emphasis. And everyone knows that. (In the rare case where that statement was referred to someone actually (or literally) being physically pounded into the ground, the context would clarify it.)

Ask yourself, have you ever been confused when someone used "literally" incorrectly?.

If you change the rules, you are miscommunicating unless the receiver understands that you are using a different rulebook and can unambiguously determine the new set of rules.

I agree with this. But with regard to the so-called misuse of "literally," the receiver is unlikely, extremely unlikely, to misunderstand.

In my opinion, the only reason to not misuse "literally" is not because of some far fetched concern over miscommunication. Rather, it's because might be incorrectly judged ignorant by a grammar maven. For that reason, I don't use "literally" wrong, even though I don't believe that that usage is wrong.

Perhaps literally fantastic.

A maven is an expert or connoisseur. Therefore, a grammar maven would be an expert on grammar. Therefore, it would make no sense to address this thread to grammar mavens if it had nothing to do with grammar.

It appears you have now decided to misuse "grammar maven" to indicate a pejorative characterization of certain people. I am literally shocked you would do that.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Spoken like a true Gator. I'll surrender my remaining time to the (ex) Congresswoman from Florida: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgbBP9Em00A

I didn't know that. Thanks!

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

So we agree?

As a kid My mom on a daily basis corrected me on the Jim and I... thing. As if anyone is confused by "Me and Jim..." or "Jim and me..."

I would have hoped an English major would have known the difference between "expressing yourself" and "communicating." I can express myself in any language, but I can only communicate with you in your language.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Well, you'd best unknow it, since JSA is incorrect. In many cases, it is perfectly acceptable to interchange "because" and "since". "Since" is not merely a measure of time; it has a dual meaning implying causation.

https://duckduckgo.com/...mp;t=ffab&ia=web