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Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences
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I'm not sure where people get the notion you have the right to say anything at any time without reprisals.

https://www.nytimes.com/...neer-fired-memo.html


“I have a legal right to express my concerns about the terms and conditions of my working environment and to bring up potentially illegal behavior, which
is what my document does,†Mr. Damore said.

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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
I'm not sure where people get the notion you have the right to say anything at any time without reprisals.

https://www.nytimes.com/...neer-fired-memo.html


“I have a legal right to express my concerns about the terms and conditions of my working environment and to bring up potentially illegal behavior, which
is what my document does,†Mr. Damore said.

Sure but he seems to have a rather specific claim not the general "freedom of speech" one people often resort to.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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He's going to sue the shit out of Google...






...and win big.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
He's going to sue the shit out of Google...

...and win big.

If it's a jury trial he may win but I think he would lose on appeal.

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Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
Duffy wrote:
He's going to sue the shit out of Google...

...and win big.


If it's a jury trial he may win but I think he would lose on appeal.

Why lose on appeal?

War is god
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [Crank] [ In reply to ]
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Crank wrote:
TheRef65 wrote:
Duffy wrote:
He's going to sue the shit out of Google...

...and win big.


If it's a jury trial he may win but I think he would lose on appeal.


Why lose on appeal?

He is an "at will" employee and the company believed his words hurt the company. He wasn't looking for a legal remedy for what he was saying, it was just an opinion. If he felt what was going on was illegal, he would have tried to correct the situation through the justice system. He didn't, he wrote an opinion piece. From what I've read, he didn't cite any statutes or legal precedent. Besides, they don't really need a reason to fire him other than to say he was no longer needed.

JSA and Danno are the labor lawyers, I'm sure they would know.

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Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
I'm not sure where people get the notion you have the right to say anything at any time without reprisals.

https://www.nytimes.com/...neer-fired-memo.html


“I have a legal right to express my concerns about the terms and conditions of my working environment and to bring up potentially illegal behavior, which
is what my document does,†Mr. Damore said.

He's probably right that he has a legal right to raise his concerns. My guess, however, is that he has the right to do so within the confines of whatever grievance process is in place for his employer, not in an OpEd.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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He's already filed a charge with the NLRB. And if his claim is that his memo was concerted, protected activity, which seems to be the case, then his exclusive remedy should be through the NLRB. (No jury.)

If he's successfully, his remedy will be limited to making him whole, which includes reinstatement (unless waived) and back pay and interest, plus possible job search expenses, etc.

In other words, he might win, but it won't be big.
Last edited by: AlanShearer: Aug 8, 17 10:28
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
TheRef65 wrote:
I'm not sure where people get the notion you have the right to say anything at any time without reprisals.

https://www.nytimes.com/...neer-fired-memo.html


“I have a legal right to express my concerns about the terms and conditions of my working environment and to bring up potentially illegal behavior, which
is what my document does,†Mr. Damore said.


Sure but he seems to have a rather specific claim not the general "freedom of speech" one people often resort to.


But neither Google nor anyone else is stopping him from expressing his concerns. He's free to use whatever speech he wants. Just not as an employee of Google. Using mass email as a pulpit for airing corporate grievances is an extremely risky tactic for employment status.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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If his memo was protected, concerted activity under the NLRA, then the fact that he didn't follow any particular grievance process will be irrelevant. An OpEd would likely be as protected as a facebook post, as it would a conversation between two employees.

That said, I haven't read his memo, so I can't say whether it could arguably be protected under the NLRA.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
Duffy wrote:
He's going to sue the shit out of Google...

...and win big.

If it's a jury trial he may win but I think he would lose on appeal.

No jury and no appeals.

It's a labor issue and Google is going to pay.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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He is an "at will" employee and the company believed his words hurt the company. He wasn't looking for a legal remedy for what he was saying, it was just an opinion. If he felt what was going on was illegal, he would have tried to correct the situation through the justice system. He didn't, he wrote an opinion piece. From what I've read, he didn't cite any statutes or legal precedent. Besides, they don't really need a reason to fire him other than to say he was no longer needed.

None of that is really relevant.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
It's a labor issue and Google is going to pay.

That'll be the end of Google. I don't know how they could recover from an NRLB fine (if there ends up being one).
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
TheRef65 wrote:
Duffy wrote:
He's going to sue the shit out of Google...

...and win big.


If it's a jury trial he may win but I think he would lose on appeal.


No jury and no appeals.

It's a labor issue and Google is going to pay.

No they won't. It's an NLRB charge and he has an uphill battle proving his conduct was concerted. It may be protected, but it must also be concerted to have any protection under the NLRA. Google isn't going to fork out a bunch of money to keep this hush hush. They will play it out.

If (big IF) it ever gets up to the level of the full NLRB, the Board will be stacked with Trump appointees by then. The days of the Obama Board ignoring decades of prior Board precedent are gone. Done. These lone wolf complainants will not find a friendly Board any longer.

Good luck to him.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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Does anyone here agree with what he wrote? I definitely agree that Google is left leaning and I'm sure Duffy will chime in about the womens.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [axlsix3] [ In reply to ]
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He has a right to say what he wants. His employer has a right to dismiss him.

The Constitution is about limiting Federal power. The 1st Amendment says that the Feds aren't allowed to prevent you from saying your piece. Google isn't the Federal Government.

Yet.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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Its okay to be open and questioning until you are too open and question too much. His memo didn't seem too over the top nor did it seem hateful. He was careful to be clear that what he said were generalizations and there would be overlap between the sexes in what he was talking about. One of the criticisms is that he is perceived as calling women "snowflakes". Ironic that the solution is that we don't allow that talk because it might hurt feelings.

"The above should not be taken as agreement with what he guy wrote just observations on what occurred"

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Last edited by: len: Aug 8, 17 13:11
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [axlsix3] [ In reply to ]
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Do you agree with what he wrote?
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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A little bit of social awareness would tell you this is not a good debate for a male to enter into at work, no matter how they carefully craft their argument. I'm guessing that google hires a few men who are not terribly socially aware.

An interesting question is what evidence would be sufficient to persuade you that there is some inherent difference that explains the gender disparity in tech. Even more interesting is what data would be sufficient to persuade a woman who works in tech of the same thing.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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AlanShearer wrote:
He's already filed a charge with the NLRB. And if his claim is that his memo was concerted, protected activity, which seems to be the case, then his exclusive remedy should be through the NLRB. (No jury.)

If he's successfully, his remedy will be limited to making him whole, which includes reinstatement (unless waived) and back pay and interest, plus possible job search expenses, etc.

In other words, he might win, but it won't be big.
He'll also soon learn that the software industry is like a small town where everyone knows everyone. He's going to be blackballed worse than Kapernick.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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On the topic of the NLRB composition... Do you know where things stand regarding your anticipated stacking of the NLRB by the Trump administration? We hear that they have been slow with various appointments. Are the on the ball here, or is it still composed of Obama appointees? Or, can Trump only name new Board members when current members rotate off the Board on some timetable?

Basically, I'm interested in whether the climate in support of labor has already shifted abruptly, or whether there will be a more gradual transition.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
Do you agree with what he wrote?


See above. Google left leaning, yes. Generalization about womens, no. And I work in tech. In the Bay Area.

ETA: I did not read through the whole 10 page manifesto.
Last edited by: axlsix3: Aug 8, 17 14:37
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [wesley] [ In reply to ]
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wesley wrote:
On the topic of the NLRB composition... Do you know where things stand regarding your anticipated stacking of the NLRB by the Trump administration? We hear that they have been slow with various appointments. Are the on the ball here, or is it still composed of Obama appointees? Or, can Trump only name new Board members when current members rotate off the Board on some timetable?

Basically, I'm interested in whether the climate in support of labor has already shifted abruptly, or whether there will be a more gradual transition.

There are 5 seats on the Board. Only 3 are occupied by 1 conservative and 2 donkeys. So, Trump does not have to wait for vacancies. He has 2 open seats he will fill with conservatives giving the Board a 3-2 conservative majority again.

The two appointees made it out of committee. Last week the Senate started the confirmation process. They should be seated by September.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [wesley] [ In reply to ]
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Kaplan was confirmed last week. Emanuel had his hearing in committee. I believe it's been sent to the full Senate, but most likely to be voted on after the recess.

Miscimerra's term expires in December, so Trump will have to nominate a replacement, as I don't believe he would want to continue.

Griffin's term as General Counsel expires in I believe September or October. That will make the biggest difference.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for your awareness & insight on these things!
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [len] [ In reply to ]
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len wrote:
Ironic that the solution is that we don't allow that talk


No one's preventing anyone from talking. He can say anything he wants. He just can't do it on internal Google discussion forums and expect continued employment.

Quote:
because it might hurt feelings.


Did you read the memo? To me it's all about him getting his feelings hurt because he's been criticized ("shamed" in his words) whenever he tries to discuss some of Google's diversity policies. The manifesto is largely an expression of hurt feelings.
Last edited by: trail: Aug 8, 17 14:59
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks to you, too.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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AlanShearer wrote:

Griffin's term as General Counsel expires in I believe September or October. That will make the biggest difference.

Nov 4.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Read the first 3 or 4 pages. It gets kind of tiresome after that. Yeah no one is preventing anyone from talking. You will just loose your job if you do it. I suppose that is Google's right but I don't think they can describe themselves as open if they do so. Message sent, don't talk about this sort of stuff.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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AlanShearer wrote:
Miscimerra's term expires in December, so Trump will have to nominate a replacement, as I don't believe he would want to continue.

You don't think so? He was just named Chair in May.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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My understanding is he wants to return to the private sector. But that was from back in January, so his appointment to Chair may change things.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [len] [ In reply to ]
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len wrote:
Read the first 3 or 4 pages. It gets kind of tiresome after that. Yeah no one is preventing anyone from talking. You will just loose your job if you do it. I suppose that is Google's right but I don't think they can describe themselves as open if they do so. Message sent, don't talk about this sort of stuff.

Read the whole thing. Lot of silly psycho-babble couched as "science," with some genuine scientific references to give it patina of rigor.

What's not clear to me is what specific harm he thinks has occurred to him in the past. It seems he's tried to bring up gender issues and feels he's been shut down and "shamed." But he doesn't give specific examples about what "shaming" is? Is that just no one agreeing with him? Or was formally punished in some way? Is he socially ostracized? Did someone pull pranks on him?
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe my mistake was reading first 3-4 pages of memo and the story about the CEO unhappy some female employees were talking about leaving unless something was done about it. I seems to me though that having a policy trying to increase diversity in some positions just for the sake of increasing diversity without taking into account other things isn't always wise.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [axlsix3] [ In reply to ]
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I personally feel late women are genetically incapable of technical things. I mean my woman can barely use the dishwasher! Dumb broads.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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As Colin Kaepernick is finding out.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [jbank] [ In reply to ]
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jbank wrote:
A little bit of social awareness would tell you this is not a good debate for a male to enter into at work, no matter how they carefully craft their argument. I'm guessing that google hires a few men who are not terribly socially aware.

An interesting question is what evidence would be sufficient to persuade you that there is some inherent difference that explains the gender disparity in tech. Even more interesting is what data would be sufficient to persuade a woman who works in tech of the same thing.

Interesting question, what would it take to convince women there is a difference whether or not it an inherent difference or self made.

Working in IT. Even in an organization with almost equal men/women and over 1000 IT staff members, Women/men seem to be distributed amongst groups in a non random pattern. I will find some women in the tech groups like DBAs, Unix administrators, network administrators etc. So no question women can do these jobs, but what I have found is more women gravitate to management positions and developer/analyst positions than the tech groups. And that men are far more likely to have these tech jobs. Have women done this to themselves through self selecting career choices, or have they been pushed to certain areas? perhaps for there own "good". I.e. Organizations often have special tracks for women and minorities who they believe will rise high in the organization. They get pushed to positions that will set them up for other future promotions. Getting stuck in certain tech positions is unlikely to further their advancement.

So I think there are certainly differences in where men/women end up in IT, I'm not sure it inherent in the gender. it may be self imposed.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
Do you agree with what he wrote?

Yes,

The press is spreading FAKE news about what his memo actually said.

Also agreeing that what he wrote is true are many smart women, even and particular those who work in Tech...at Google.

The (Neuro)Science he cites is solid.

Men and Women are NOT built equally.

Gender equality based on the level of biological equality is a Hoax.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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    Pretty much. This article lays out lots of data points and references studies to back up plenty of his thoughts. I think the guy's major point though, is that after all of it, it comes down less to ability (despite differences) and more to interest.
_
http://slatestarcodex.com/...gerated-differences/
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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AlanShearer wrote:
He is an "at will" employee and the company believed his words hurt the company. He wasn't looking for a legal remedy for what he was saying, it was just an opinion. If he felt what was going on was illegal, he would have tried to correct the situation through the justice system. He didn't, he wrote an opinion piece. From what I've read, he didn't cite any statutes or legal precedent. Besides, they don't really need a reason to fire him other than to say he was no longer needed.

None of that is really relevant.

Can you please explain why these statements are not relevant?
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
len wrote:
Read the first 3 or 4 pages. It gets kind of tiresome after that. Yeah no one is preventing anyone from talking. You will just loose your job if you do it. I suppose that is Google's right but I don't think they can describe themselves as open if they do so. Message sent, don't talk about this sort of stuff.


Read the whole thing. Lot of silly psycho-babble couched as "science," with some genuine scientific references to give it patina of rigor.

What's not clear to me is what specific harm he thinks has occurred to him in the past. It seems he's tried to bring up gender issues and feels he's been shut down and "shamed." But he doesn't give specific examples about what "shaming" is? Is that just no one agreeing with him? Or was formally punished in some way? Is he socially ostracized? Did someone pull pranks on him?

Nicely said, I agree with you.

I feel he is trying to frame his opinion as fact and when actually it is only a bunch of whining and "crying" on his part. Sounds to me like he needs to grown up a bit.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [xsive] [ In reply to ]
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xsive wrote:
AlanShearer wrote:
He is an "at will" employee and the company believed his words hurt the company. He wasn't looking for a legal remedy for what he was saying, it was just an opinion. If he felt what was going on was illegal, he would have tried to correct the situation through the justice system. He didn't, he wrote an opinion piece. From what I've read, he didn't cite any statutes or legal precedent. Besides, they don't really need a reason to fire him other than to say he was no longer needed.

None of that is really relevant.


Can you please explain why these statements are not relevant?

It doesn't matter if his employment was "at will" if he was terminated for an unlawful reason. Here, he's alleging that the reason was unlawful -- that he was terminated for drafting the memo (and possibly for having filed a charge with the NLRB prior to his termination) and that the memo was concerted activity and protected by the NLRA.

Essentially, he's claiming (1) that the memo was written on behalf of himself and other employees to advance their terms and conditions of employment and (2) that it was not written in a way that would cause it to lose its protection under the NLRA.. I think he has a difficult case to make, especially since we're seeing a new Board and soon a new General Counsel that will likely not view these matters in the same way that they were treated under the Obama administration. But his presumptive at will status has no bearing on that analysis.

Similarly, for concerted conduct to be protected under the NLRA, the employee does not have to be seeking a legal remedy or alleging unlawful conduct. This is not like a whistleblower claim. Generally, he only has to be work with other employees or on their behalf to advance working conditions, so long as he doesn't go about it in a way that would cause it to lose its protected nature..
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the clarity. Makes much more sense now.

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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Did you read the memo? To me it's all about him getting his feelings hurt because he's been criticized ("shamed" in his words) whenever he tries to discuss some of Google's diversity policies. The manifesto is largely an expression of hurt feelings.

My first thought was he has too much time on his hands or is a bullshitter (or both). Second I thought he is a cry-me-a-biatch type. Likely a problem employee generally.

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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
TheRef65 wrote:
Duffy wrote:
He's going to sue the shit out of Google...

...and win big.

If it's a jury trial he may win but I think he would lose on appeal.

No jury and no appeals.

It's a labor issue and Google is going to pay.

Not. A. Chance.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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windschatten wrote:
Tibbsy wrote:
Do you agree with what he wrote?


Yes,

The press is spreading FAKE news about what his memo actually said.

Also agreeing that what he wrote is true are many smart women, even and particular those who work in Tech...at Google.

The (Neuro)Science he cites is solid.

Men and Women are NOT built equally.

Gender equality based on the level of biological equality is a Hoax.

I agree 100%. The guy is getting crucified in the media and no one can be bothered to read 10 pages of what he wrote. What I read had citations and his position, that the lack of woman in tech could be due to gender preferences rather than discrimination, is universally accepted among psychologists and backed by many studies.

If Google wants openness like they claim they need to be mature enough to listen to respectful opinions that differ from than their own.
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Re: Freedom of speech does not mean you can speak without consequences [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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The tech giant is "Google-plexed" over the uproar attaching to what was a simple ideological purification ritual at the company. ;-)









"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
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