And why not? Does anyone who is sane really recommend NOT replenishing after a three hour workout?

BTW: I've found it what you eat not when you don't eat that has more bearing on shedding the winter/holiday pounds.

Remember, I am not sane :)

I eat 3 times a day. If I were to eat just because I had exercised, well, I might be fat.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Please never recommend to anyone to not eat after a 3 hour workout. That's the best way to go backwards.

---

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

Generally any diet related advice coming from Dave should be ignored...

I really can't figure out how to respond to this. I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at.

I lost 55 lbs (and cut my bf% from 27 - 11%) in 2015/16 following some version of this strategy. I wasn't training at the time, I was exercising for health and weight-loss---never more than about 90 minutes at a time. So, yeah...it works for THAT SPECIFIC PURPOSE. But, I was certainly compromised from a performance standpoint. I could do zone2 on that plan, but certainly not zone4.

But, its a crap *training* nutrition plan.

That sounds like a pretty bad idea and should not be advice given to people.

---

"If it costs you 30 minutes at Maryland so what" -dwreal

Continuing the trend of "Do exactly the opposite of what I do."

Wow, I am in real trouble. I never ever have eaten after a workout. I guess I am just a BOP racer.

Now after a race, I get to pig out. But, back on the diet the next day to recover. Got to get ready to race next weekend.

Guess I should not be siting here after my 3 hour workout today, and be hungry, and should go pig out. Nah, I will wait to eat until my normal lunch time at 12.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Just diet advice? I came here to argue against this "advice", then saw it was him, and decided arguing wasn't necessary. Or productive.

Yep, great advice.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yes, you do if you eat 3 times a day

Fixed it for you.

Should anyone be surprised by h2ofun's comments anymore?

I think Dan should just rename his forum to Snowflake heaven.

I just like to a post that some experts did.

And I just comment what I do.

And just always amazed on how the snowflakes have to jump in and tell me, and everyone else, they are right, period, and have to attack.

I guess if I posted the sun comes up in the morning the snowflakes would attack about that. :)

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"As soon as you start eating, the process is halted. Insulin now inhibits the breakdown of fatty acids, leading your body to burn the sugars you've just ingested. The fat burning stage is over."


I read a book that stated that when you constantly enter a fasted state, your body doesn't know when your next meal is coming so it triggers the metabolism to slow down and your body will want to store as much of your last meal as fat. Which, as the article also stated...

"If you think about it, this all makes perfect evolutionary sense. When food wasn’t as readily available as it is today, holding on to stored body fat was crucial for our survival. We evolved to last a long time between meals."

It is of course possible to lose fat while only eating 3 meals a day, and not eating after exercise. But don't confuse the evolutionary science. Because if true, the best way to lose fat would be to fast for 2-3 days straight, then resume normal eating once you've reaped all the benefits of the fat loss during that period. But we all know that doesn't work, and that it messes up your metabolism to the point where you likely end up gaining weight in the long run by training your body to store everything you eat as fat, and burn less calories at rest to prepare for the possibility of another 2-3 days without food.

You probably wouldn't be so weak on the bike if you actually tried to build some strength (hint, it doesn't involve starving yourself). Food for thought.

Indeed, every reputable source advises that the half hour after a heavy workout is the most important time period to get the carbs in to replenish the glycogen stores.

For the average participant, which is a greater obstacle to triathlon performance:
1) Being overweight
2) Not recovering properly from their workouts because of insufficient nutrition.

Estimate:
1) 98% of triathletes
3) 2% of triathletes

There is a balancing act here:
Exercise should help with weight loss.
BUT exercise WILL NOT help with weight loss if you one is constantly consuming crap food during and after exercise.

That said, I do try to eat a little bit of something healthy after I complete every hard or long workout.

And how did you do in your last race?

---

"Honestly, triathlon is a pussified version of duathlon on that final run."- Desert Dude

Who cares about being weak on the bike, I race Triathlons, and it is all about getting to the finish. I am still amazed how slow folks run in races. I just love running past those bikes studs who fly by me on the bike, (which means they are poor swimmers also. :) )

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

At Auburn 3 weeks ago I was the overall Olympic winner, and had the fastest run split.
I wonder how many times a person 60 or older has won a race overall?

http://www.bigskyendurancesports.com/...NTRI_INTNTL_OALL.htm


Last Sunday I was the 11th overall, and do not have the split times to see if I had the fastest run again. I am usually in the top few.

http://totalbodyfitness.com/...al-triathlon-1-2017/

Not bad for an old 60 year guy who does everything wrong. :)

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep!

I read articles all the time that say just because a person does some exercise, and this uses this to go stuff their face, and they wonder why they cannot lose weight.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave,

The guy that won the elite race you're about to do this weekend did it on the bike, claimed so himself that a biker just wond Duathlon Nationals! The bike usually makes up about 50% of an olympic tri/du finish time. Your bike time in the sprint last year was 7 minutes behind the top dudes in your age group...so was your finish time. They cared, and that was the difference.

Out of curiosity.
If you are not allowed to burn fat during, or after training......
How are you supposed to lose weight?

They don't have to be mutually exclusive Dave. But keep building that straw man.

Do you classify beer as food because that is really important after long workouts.

---

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

How can you win an Olympic in 2:42 with a 1:27 bike segment? The run is pretty quick though. The 2:21 is impressive if that was a full Olympic.

---

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

If you look at the Age Up results, I was first in the 59-63 for the sprint :) And I think the ones I beat did not do the race in the morning. Did you buddies who you say
beat me in the sprint race the standard a few hours earlier? If not, why not. Not tough enough?

Again, we are born with what we have. I will always suck on the bike. But since I do, does this allow me to have more energy for the run?

I was one of the few that did both. If I remember right, I was the only was who ran sub 7 for all the runs, which I was real proud of for the second race since I was dead.

So not sure what your point is? Yep, there are lots of better folks. But, I am now 11 years AA for Triathlon. How many of your friends are?
I qualified for 4 events in Penticton in August. How many of your friends have qualified for that many? I also qualified for Tri worlds but elected not to go.

So lets talk about their run times. Why do so few want to talk about run times? I just love running by those studly bikers during the run and have a better overall time.

But who cares. For me, I am just out there having fun for myself. Competing against others helps me get into the pain cave but after that, who cares. I know I am not that good and could care less about doing the ST approved training. Sure has not given most very good overall finishes.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

where did I say that?

How to lose weight, do not eat as much. Easy

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You clearly do not understand that some bike courses are not flat. Or the run. Or the heat.
They do not call the Auburn race the worlds toughest for nothing.

My 2:21 sucked. Bike is a tad short. All of our times were was slow because of the heavy wind we hade. I normally do that course in 2:12 to 2:15, which you can see on Athlinks.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I never drink or take drugs, so I would not know. I just know a lot of folks who drink beer have bellies.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You didn't say that.

This is a question for the people that think that one needs to be constantly eating and drinking- in order to avoid some kind of "recovery break down".

Sorry, but you replied to me I thought.

Yep, would love to hear the "facts" to their answer.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I think you actually have this correct. The thing that most folks reading this were really surprised at was that you would consider it OK in the context of your diet and training plan to do anything for 3 hours and not consider the energy and recovery ramifications.

Nobody's saying you're no good, nobody's saying your training is not effective, and nobody can dispute your very solid results.

However, if you want to be the best you can be, if you want your training to be the most effective it could be, and if you want those results to be even better, you'd do well to heed some of the advice in the thread (even if it was outweighed by insults).

That advice is: 3 hours of fasted training with no immediate glycogen replacement is compromising your training and your fitness, and lowering your ability to compete. You should replace at least a few of those burned calories almost immediately.

Is your performance still high enough to suit you? Maybe so. Are you super duper efficient at all 3 sports, leading to your compromised fitness still producing winning performances. Maybe so. But could you be better? Obviously.

I don't think making the ho hum, happens every time dogpile on h2ofun, easy as it may seem, is the right solution here. You guys aren't listening to what Dave is saying, and then he doubles down with his fist in the air.

-Eric

ps -- seriously, consider banishing "snowflake" from your vocabulary, unless it's the atmospheric phenomenon. You sound ridiculous :)

This is an excellent response. There is so much talk about "fueling" in this sport that I think it is easy for triathletes to justify eating too much and gain weight. I put on weight over the last 10 years with too much focus on fueling and recovery nutrition and not enough on total calorie management. I got it under control last year with MyFitnessPal. So overall, my calorie level is down but the timing of those calories is still very important. I certainly eat a lot more often than Dave does at 3x per day, but his point about eating less overall is spot on.

The way I look at it is if I eat after my workouts, and since total food for the day is what impacts weight, this would mean I have to eat less at my other meals, which currently I have no desire to eliminate my cookies and ice cream.

Now, for ME, if I found this impacted my performance, yep, I would change.

But for some folks to always think their way or opinion is the ONLY way, well, lots of things work for others but not me, or things that work for me do not work for others. Why do some always always have to fight about it? And this is why I call them all snowflakes. A snowflakes always has to jump in with negative comments that their way or opinion is the ONLY way to go. I never ever say that. When I get folks at races always asking for my thoughts on how to get better, since they see my results, I always say this is what I do, but it may not work for anyone else! They need to find what works for them. And the main thing is what works is something they can stick with 7 days a week, 12 months a year, for years. So if one cannot do this, let alone stay healthy, well, they are talking to the wrong person.

I do think snowflake is better than bully, but some on ST seem to be both. :)

I really could care less about being faster!! I was talking to the 2 time gold medal 70-74 AG at the last race. We both laughed about comments from folks about getting faster. He said at our age, our goal is to try and not slow down as much, let alone, stay healthy to just get to the starting line. I am just amazed how many fewer racers I now race against in the 60-64 AG. And how slow, especially in the run, most are.

Assuming I am healthy this weekend in Bend, it will be real interesting to see folks in my AG race results. Now since I plan to try and race all three, I can already see from this thread that some will cherry pick the results that want to compare me against. :) And since I want to be at race weight, I am back to full court press reducing the food intake to get the weight off before Sat and Sunday. Fatter does not make one faster on the run.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep, we are all different and just need to find what works for each of us. But some just like to be fat.

I do once in a while after exercise get real hungry and sneak a few cookies, but boy do I feel guilty. But as long as that scale each night keeps me in race weight, I do not worry about.

Now tonight, it is out to dinner at Sizzler with root beer floats and lots of junk food, which is why I have cut back food the last 2 days.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Why is it important to replace the calories so quick? The calories lost during exercise can easily be replaced even if you wait to eat. You still have plenty of everything you need to recover after a workout.

Great question, still waiting for the answer from the "experts" with facts. Which I guess they are saying the folks in the article have no idea what they are talking about. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

But I think there are a solid dozen people saying yes, it will impact your performance. If I understand what you're saying, you're saying you eat 3,500 or however many calories, 1000 breakfast, 1000 lunch, and 1500 dinner, the same no matter what. And so if your 3-hours of training burned 2200 calories, and your base rate is 2200, you ran a deficit of 900 that day which is good for overall weight and therefore performance.

What people are saying is, instead of this, if you did 800 breakfast, 600 post ride, 1000 lunch, and 1500 dinner, for a total deficit of 500 for the day, you'd still have a solid fat burn, but you would perform better on your next morning's fasted workout.

Two things jump out from your replies: first, it sounds you admit that this is so, because you sometimes sneak some cookies after a long session. Second, it honestly sounds like you have an eating disorder if recovery/replenishment calories cause you guilt.

I don't think you're being honest when you say you couldn't care less about being faster. You clearly do care, very passionately, about your performance, which is why you talk about it all the time.

Anyway, what you are doing is working fairly well in any case, so whatever, keep on truckin' :-)

-Eric

Well, as I understand it, and in my experience, for performance, replace 'em quick. For weight loss, wait as long as you want / can. There's a window of maximal carbs -> glycogen replenishment that's around 20 minutes after a session. I find as long as I respect that, I can stack up a lot of sessions one after the other and my performance doesn't degrade. If I don't, I get feeling flat, hungry, and lethargic pretty quickly. I'm sure there's some smarter than me folks who could speak to the science.

-Eric

We can agree to disagree.

Until someone comes up for facts, rather than their opinions, ....

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Great that works for you, and others.

But why when I have something that works for me folks have to say I am wrong?

I train 7 days a week, about 20 hours a week. I race a lot, and my results are okay. So way do some just want to say what I do, which works for me, is impossible?
And why do some say, that if I did it their way, I would be better. I always smile when these folks never post their race results, rankings, etc? And to get the results I do at 60, well, most of these folks will never be racing at 60, let alone with good results :)

Again, I just posted an article that these experts came up with something they did not expect. Bash them if you think you are the expert and their results are wrong.
Just happens I have been using this as part of how I can eat the quantity of food I do, which at meals blows folks minds, and still keep the weight off.
Again, not saying this process should be used by anyone else.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Nobody said you're "wrong". And it'd be silly to say it was "impossible" because it obviously isn't -- you keep doing it :)

But simple math says, if you eat X calories at certain intervals during the day, and if you shifted those intervals to be strategic, you'd perform better at your workouts. I get the eating a staggering quantity of food thing, and I get that you closely manage your weight.

But you DO say your process should be used by people, because you keep bringing it up. And you DO keep making comparisons between yourself and other athletes your age, both self-deprecating ones (e.g. there are lots of runners my age who are faster!), and comparative ones (e.g. most of these folks will never be racing at 60, let alone with good results <smiley face>). And because what you are doing is non-conventional, and folks keep calling you on it, and you respond poorly, there gets to be this dogpile thing.

It's cool, obviously you are gonna do whatever you want. But you'd be faster, and your workouts higher quality, if you more carefully managed when you ate your calories during the day.

-Eric

Are you talking about stacking up multiple hard workouts in a day? As I understand it the "window" makes no difference if you have a day or so to recover -- given a day your body will replenish blood glycogen just fine even without 200 calories within 20 minutes.

There are studies that dispute this, just FYI.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC4242477/


In conclusion, our findings indicate that body composition changes associated with aerobic exercise in conjunction with a hypocaloric diet are similar regardless whether or not an individual is fasted prior to training. Hence, those seeking to lose body fat conceivably can choose to train either before or after eating based on preference

Dont get me wrong, I exercise fasted as well -- but I just want a lower overall calorie intake.

I've tried both, actually, although multiples in a day make me really REALLY careful about feeding and hydration -- but even if I'm doing one session a day, after a few days of being sloppy about initial recovery, I seem to dig a hole for myself, and pretty soon I don't even feel like moving. But if I'm careful about those 20 minutes, even if it's 150-200 calories, I am peppy all the time. Given that this tracks with the "conventional wisdom", I feel safe in assuming I am nowhere near alone in this experience.

If I am doing easy workouts once a day, I can be a lot more laissez faire about it, so I think you're right that over a day it's no biggie. (But as in the other posts, a lot of the debate was about a 3-hour session, which I'd never do without eating immediately after, even if I wanted to lose a ton of weight).

-E

Maybe not full on scientific, but I'll say this is stupid. My evidence behind this is the fact that I put myself into a four year hole of severe overtraining syndrome. The fact that I was training long hours and not eating enough just broke me. Its only now four years later that I feel "normal" again. Now I'm sure you won't believe this, so to each their own, but I know that there is no way in hell I would not eat something right after extended intense exercise.

Exactly what I'm saying. Either it's extended OR intense, not both, or it's math that it's going to wear you down. And to get the best training effect, from time to time, you do need to do both.

-E

This fits with my experience, too. I do two-a-days almost every day, and 3-a-days (typically morning swim lunch run, evening bike) 2 times a week. I'm almost NEVER more than 12 hours away from the next session. So, (re)fueling is always important to me. I can get away with just using larger regular meals for the morning swims, and z2 runs. But, for hard bike workouts like FTP intervals, or long Upper Steady efforts, and my long ride and run...its key for me to ensure I'm fueled (and refueled) before and after these. Otherwise, I just see a descending staircase of incomplete recovery between workouts. The legs get heavier, and heavier and the power/pace numbers for those workouts where they are key don't come up to par.

Sometimes I can time these before/after the next meal...which is fine. But, if not then I will ensure I eat something before/after as needed.

Now that I'm down to race-weight (150 lbs), I never intentionally fast for weight management. I prefer to finish my workouts balanced on calories....and eat regular means (adjusted slightly to gain/lose as desired). If I need to lose a pound or two (after holidays or whatever), I never create a deficit larger than 500 cal/day (1 lb / week). I find even that to clearly compromises my ability to repeat day-after-day.

You calling other people snowflakes is hilariously ironic since you seem to take so much pride in being unique and doing things differently from others.

This thread will probably never end.

I do think snowflake is better than bully, but some on ST seem to be both. :)

For what it's worth, I don't think there is anything wrong with not eating after a workout. A lot of runners/triathletes are overweight because they believe "I exercised so I can eat whatever I want" is ridiculous and your approach is better than that. I little snack (with a corresponding decrease in your next meal) would be better in my opinion but eating 3 meals a day is much better than eating 6 (your body secretes insulin after every meal and insulin makes you fat).

I really could care less about being faster!! .\

Don't you mean, "I really couldn't care less" :)

Seriously.....as if I would take heathy diet advice from a person who dines at Denny's

Think that there are plenty of top endurance athletes with optimal body comp who don't eat the way H20 Fun is eating......

---

leslie myers
http://www.foodsensenow.com

And a disclaimer it seems for age because I imagine being that old you metabolism is almost at a standstill and maybe you can get away with it???

This might be a difference. IMO, I never do intense workouts in training. I save these for races, where yep, I pig out right when I am done.

And since I have never overtrained, (Other than when I was training for IMLT :) ), I have never dug a hole that I tried to get out of.

I just do not understand why so many have to always say but they are always right and there is NO way any other method might work for others, even if it is ONLY me. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep, I do like not being a lemming.

But, I sure do not try to shove down anyone's throat my opinion, compared to snowflakes.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

My grammar sucks :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I eat a Sizzler much more often, just got back from there tonight.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Well, I'm female and I aged up to 50-54 AG this year. I've been racing well this season and have been told that my body comp is good. I eat before and after every workout. I think that it's more important to eat nutritionally dense food and eat the proper macronutrient ratio for whatever your activity level is rather than fasting pre and post long workouts. It works for me and I'm guessing that it works for most *aging* athletes :)

---

leslie myers
http://www.foodsensenow.com

you need a new user name....how about "Click Bait Dave"?

---

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

From you: "who cares about being weak on the bike, I race Triathlons, and it is all about getting to the finish."

You choose to be weak at a portion of a triathlon/duathlon that makes up 50% of the swim time. That's fine. My point is that the overall winner of the race proclaimed that he won the race on the bike. He's not as good a runner as other elites. I never said he was in your age group. You lost 7 minutes in what was a 33 minute bike segment for the top finishers in your age group. That is a huge percentage, regardless of what you did the morning of, the day before...you did really well in the run segments, comparatively, given that you raced earlier. Kudos for that.

Yep, clearly my bike sucked last season. I guess you would not care that I had sciatica starting in Late Dec. all the way past June. So with the limited intense training I could do, I was very very happy I was able to race at all.

This year I go into the race with a pulled groin. No excuse, but will see. I still expect to suck on the bike.
Sat shall be fun since the 60 year old guys start 15 minutes before the next group. I will be able to see who is kicking my butt in front of me. Sure going to give it all I can to not lose so much time on the bike, and catch them on the run. I love the fun of the chase. All I really want are the TeamUSA tickets for Demark, so I really do not care if I am 18th.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You have an eating disorder and are a complete jackass...I'll take snowflake over that any day of the week.

PS...learn to write properly and check your posts, they are often extremely difficult to read.

 I read the article and my experience is 100% copy, right down to the green tea.

I disagree that weight loss follows though. Imo weight "control" is a complex psychologically-based equation. I've been running a chart to reduce weight before the end of this month.

To make losses stick, I had to re-wire habits more than anything - with some limited success. I dropped ~5% in 3 weeks.

I added weight training too, a simple/basic weight bar circuit I found on youtube. Muscles need to worked in a variety of ways and it's so beneficial.

I look at our dogs as a good example..Lots of exercise, two meals a day. Lean and mean. Left to their own devices or with unlimited supply dogs will eat until they practically burst..

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

This article doesn't cite any specific studies nor quote any experts on the topic. It is an opinion piece.

I employ some of the same tactics you do, namely avoiding extra recovery calories outside of a proper meal. However, sometimes it's unavoidable. I could've guessed before you posted that your workouts are likely low aerobic because there's no way you could recover from anything harder. This makes sense since you have said you are OK maintaining fitness rather than improving. If you wanted to improve, then you'd likely need to incorporate harder sessions and fuel accordingly. But you are stubborn and won't accept the possibility that your approach, while it may "work", may not be the best approach.

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2017 races: St. George 70.3 May 6 | Madison 70.3 June 11 | IM Zurich July 30 | Chicago Marathon October 8

Your guess is wrong. Have a fantastic race (races) and enjoy your time here.

This is correct, muscle glycogen stores are usually returned to normal after around 8 hours of just eating via a normal meal schedule.

It's interesting that everyone jumped on here straight away to bag the OP. Sure most things Dave posts are not what I would call great advice, but this isn't too far off the mark depending on the athletes training schedule. If Dave is doing one session a day, he doesn't really need to make use of higher glycogen replenishment rates in the 30 min post training. However if he is doing two or more sessions per day, it's likely that not replenishing will compromise the next workout that day.

Timing is actually far less critical for body composition, it's far more important to look at total calorie and macro intake over the whole week, day to day. Apart from ensuring adequate muscle glycogen for two or more sessions in a day, there's no need to eat straight after a workout

Biggest concern going on here is that you have some very disordered eating thoughts (don't know enough to call it an eating disorder, but wouldn't be surprised).

Dave you have no fat to lose. You are one of the tallest and skinniest guys I've seen at races. I would bet if you took in some quality post training nutrition, esp protein and put on 5-8lbs you would get faster on bike and lose next to nothing on run. Remember it's about all three, not just run.

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_________________________________
Fit Endurance Coaching - Head Coach|Facebook
USAT L1 Coach | BikeFit Certified Fitter | Contributing Writer - Triathlete Magazine | ROKA

Great results - keep doing what works for you and ignore the keyboard bullies.

This I agree with. Unless you're doing 2 INTENSE sessions in a day, there is no reason to eat straight after workouts. I do all my training fasted first thing in the morning and my first 'meal' is lunch. I'll have a small protein shake after morning training, but that is all. I know full well that glycogen stores will easily be topped up for the next INTENSE session.

After all, this article is advise. Take it or leave it. Plus, in addition, everyone has different hunger levels and nutritional requirements. How one person eats/drinks, should have little or no bearing on your purpose and direction. If you want to pig out after working out, go for it. If you're not hungry and just fancy water; you're call.

Simples.

Serious question. If you have always done things this way and have no plan to change, how will you know whether or not it effects your performance compared with another strategy. If you only ever do things the way you always do them, you will never see a problem with it, because you're comparing this strategy only to itself. Can you please explain how you would ever know if it was not the best strategy for you. If you want to do it this way, that's fine. But to suggest that you know it doesn't impact your performance when, as far as I can tell, you cannot, seems silly.
Do you not see that this is all confused self contradiction?
You claim you don't care about being faster but keep telling us you're a fast runner, leading to fastest overall times and therefore your strategy is the best.
You claim your finishing positions vindicate your opinions but then talk about how few race your AG. How few? Enough that your results may not be statistically relevant - honest question: I don't know.
Then you're back to talking about how slow most are on the run.....having just claimed not to care about being faster.
While you may perform well, your arguments are big on opinion and claims to authority and low on logical argument and solid statistics or research.

Regarding the snowflakes thing: That term is thankfully not used, except to describe water crystals, in Ireland (where I live) and I've only come across it in US and very occasionally British media, mostly online. What is this problem you guys have where you're obsessed with labelling everyone so you can just toss them into a category that you've allowed yourself ignore. It's the laziest and most ignorant of behaviour. It's the root of most social and political difficulties at, especially in the US IMO. It obviously happens elsewhere too, but you guys are taking it to extremes. Just stop it with the good guys/bad guys shit. No-one fits cleanly into either category. Everyone's a bit of both (even terrorists!) The problems just get bigger when you indulge your ignorance with this bull. Everyone gets more self-righteous and more extreme and the whole world turns to shit. Stop blaming "snowflakes". You and people like you are the problem. People willing to ignore debate and just claim righteousness. And lots of those you're calling "snowflakes" are guys just like you.

The Telegraph as a source of sport/weight related information?

Now, logically. If you eat 3 times a day, the chances you are going to eat not long after a 3hr workout are pretty good.

Exactly this.

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float , hammer , and jog

18 people qualify for each event per age group - I think.

There were 18 people in the 60-64 age group at Duathlon Nationals last year.

Pretty good odds on qualifying. Finish the race and you are in....

Amazing reply. Impressed that you took the time to reply so eloquently!!

I finish the odd session so wrecked that I can't tie my shoe laces. I'm not sure which is a more bizarre concept... Not refueling and comprising the adaption and recovery that the session sought OR... Running @7:30 pace 'running bike studs down' and boasting about it.
Strange stuff. I doubt there are many on here who are strong and lean enough to need to go to such extremes to lose more weight without being able to clean up elsewhere.
I suspect if there are they could probably cover a 10k faster on their knees already.

When I read this my first response was "why is he ridiculing me?"
I thought you were being sarcastic. Not sure why. I must just expect conflict on here!

Anyway, assuming you actually meant it - Thank you!

7:30 run pace is pretty slow

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yeah I'm fatter than ever and I always exercise on an empty stomach. The problem is I never go to bed on an empty stomach.

And couldn't this be the case for those that are faster on the bike and slower on the run?

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

Yep, and compared to swimming also.

But why brag about a bike time if your swim and run suck in sport that needs the fastest of all three to the finish line.

Now for the DU this weekend, it will be the fastest of the two, so I still am screwed.

But for an Aquathlon, at least it has my two best legs. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

And likewise, why brag about a run time if your swim and/or bike suck? A huge percentage of people I beat have faster (sometimes way faster) run splits than I do, but if I have a large enough gap coming off the bike, there's a chance I can beat them...

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

I really only like to talk about finish times, everything else means nothing. Go for it, what are your finishing times, USAT rankings? Number of times All American?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Wow... Ask a simple question about why emphasizing bike over run splits isn't just as valid as your run over bike splits approach, and I get this. No wonder so many people think you are, to quote a post a page or two back, "a complete jackass". For someone who keeps saying "I am just out there having fun for myself" and that you're not really competing against others, you sure seem to need to constantly prove something.

Due to health issues, I haven't been able to actually train, let alone race, for quite some time. So no USAT standings for the last few years. In the 3 decades prior to that, I had a few dozen podium appearances, a few top 5/10/20 overall finishes, and even qualified for Team USA and Du World's, but declined. All of my age group wins over the years were achieved by having the fastest bike split, and often a significantly slower run split, than everyone else on the podium. But hey, all that and $4 will get me a latte at Starbucks. And that's about all your finishing times, USAT rankings, and number of times All American are worth, as well...

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

Moving this discussion back to body composition and away from Dave's pride, I gotta acknowledge this haha. Because me too. I'm at like 184lbs and my mornings through about 7pm are perfect 7% body fat lifestyle. I should just go to bed at 7 and save myself to be honest

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________________________________________________

http://totalbodyfitness.com/...al-triathlon-1-2017/


Number of people ran significantly slower than you this past weekend, yet beat you because of the swim and the bike. The swim and bike matter, it's not a 10k.

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_________________________________
Fit Endurance Coaching - Head Coach|Facebook
USAT L1 Coach | BikeFit Certified Fitter | Contributing Writer - Triathlete Magazine | ROKA

It's kind of sad reading how worked up he gets. One tends to notice that the people who are truly fast don't make those kinds of comments.

Tell Shooter McGavin I said Hi

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_____________________________________
What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand

And what are their ages?

You know it is quite an honor at my age to have folks compare me to such younger folks and ask why they beat me. I ask why they are so slow, meaning the top guy only beat me, and old 60 year guy, by 6 minutes. And why did this old guy have again the fastest run time. Why are the young folks so slow?

A 40:36 for a 10K on a hilly, dirt course is not too bad for an old guy, especially when I out ran the field. Yep, the wind on the bike with my disc and 808 killed me.

So you and others can brag about your bike times. I can brag about my run times. And I can brag about my finish times, especially compared to folks around my age. :)

We shall see how bad I get my butt kicked at bend in 2 days. But, I wonder how many are tough enough to try 3 races in 24 hours. That is what motivates me.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Or maybe get attacks for any post I make.

Always fun to see the same snowflake bullies post when I do. Just so neat to be so special with them that they cannot just take their eyes away.

I sure do not go to threads and post just looking to fight with folks, but I guess that is just me.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"This might be a difference. IMO, I never do intense workouts in training. I save these for races, where yep, I pig out right when I am done."

19 minutes later...

"Yep, clearly my bike sucked last season. I guess you would not care that I had sciatica starting in Late Dec. all the way past June. So with the limited intense training I could do, I was very very happy I was able to race at all."

Well...which is it Dave?

[/quote]

I really only like to talk about finish times, everything else means nothing. Go for it, what are your finishing times, USAT rankings? Number of times All American?[/quote] [/quote]

A 40:36 for a 10K on a hilly, dirt course is not too bad for an old guy, especially when I out ran the field. Yep, the wind on the bike with my disc and 808 killed me.[/quote]




And what are their ages?[/quote]



No....you don't only talk about finish times.

And......Mark Evans is 57, he beat you with a slower run time.

Give it a break, you come off like a total douche.

h2ofun wrote:

...snowflake...

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

INconceivable!

---

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Tough to race where i do my intensity when i could not walk when i got out of the car for the race .

I remember my first dus of the season. I could not get into the aerobars i hurt so bad. Then when i got of the bike i could mot move.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I really only like to talk about finish times, everything else means nothing. Go for it, what are your finishing times, USAT rankings? Number of times All American?[/quote] [/quote]

A 40:36 for a 10K on a hilly, dirt course is not too bad for an old guy, especially when I out ran the field. Yep, the wind on the bike with my disc and 808 killed me.[/quote]




And what are their ages?[/quote]



No....you don't only talk about finish times.

And......Mark Evans is 57, he beat you with a slower run time.

Give it a break, you come off like a total


douche.[/quote]
And swim. :) he is just a young pup. :)

So i get beat. Who cares. I also got chicked by two gals. What is your point? We all know i am no good racing

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Actually, I think the word is used to identify yourself as an internet douchebag to everyone else so in that respect he's using it pretty effectively.

Thank you

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Trolling in 2017 aint the same as it was in 2010.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

Try to catch him writing dirty :-)

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

in defense of dave!...

(which one does at one's peril)

here are some random thoughts:

1. dave is beanpole skinny which is pretty hard to be in your 60s. just sayin'. you can criticize dave, but at some point you all are going to be dave's age and it will be interesting to see how many of you are dave's morphology when you get to his age.

2. as the article, which is certainly dubious - but still - points out, what it's recommending for weight loss is not what it's recommending for performance. and it says that.

3. aren't we talking about something in the same basic genus as a ketosis diet? to the degree we are, dave has tim noakes and others for company in what he's advocating.

i shall now back out and take my whuppin.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Well, I figure that when I get to be "beanpole skinny" I'll be like my grandfather, who died at the age of 95. He lost a lot of weight in his last 10 years or so.

Until then, I'm happy having some meat on my bones.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Here's the issue and why Dave get's piled on. His arguments are never presented in a deductive process. And he jumps all over the place with his responses and never directly answers anyone's questions/challenges.

He posts and article about weight loss. He says that's pretty much how he exercises. He doesn't need to lose weight though. No matter what he says, he's obviously very concerned with performance.

I agree 100%. Even in your 40s. But Dave does NOT agree. On this and every other similar thread, he continues to sermonize "so easy!"

That is what I have a problem with. It is absolutely not easy for the majority of people who are interested in this topic. For those that have insulin sensitivity issues, it is quite difficult.

So Dave's impact on those people (those that haven't learned to dismiss Dave's input) is to shame them. "I feel awful that I'm overweight. I hate not ever being able to eat cookies. And now I feel worse because, according to this guy (Dave), it's so easy to stay skinny and eat cookies and run well."

The problem with Dave is that he can't see even 1 inch beyond Dave.

He is the worst kind of influence to infrequent forum readers who come here to learn something.

+1 please bring back someone truly malignant, like hotman637, to make Dave seem more benign

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_____________________________________
What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand

....

Dave, I think you are well-intended, but your logic and responses are largely failed (backing in) and inconsistent; you don't care what other people think, but then go on endlessly speaking about your performance comparatively. I realize that you are often responding to the firebombing after you post, but you certainly help to fan the flames.

As Slowman stated there may be "some" value in this approach along the periodization method, but this thread will never ferret that out.

Have you ever given any thought to the possibility that your performances and level of fitness are where they are "despite" your practices? Your diet is clearly aimed at weight management and although a piece of the puzzle may come at a cost? Maybe you are shorting yourself?

Good luck this weekend.

This^^^^ I feel you not find a single coach that would prescribe 3 hour workouts every single day and fasting afterwards. To become more fit, stimulus needs to be ever changing. Obviously although he is very proud of his runs and placings, he is most likely not coming close to potential.

I also have a pretty good sense that Dave comes on and posts such insane topics to get the attention. As they say in show business...."there's no such thing as bad attention (publicity)". I agree his suggestions can be a real detriment to any newbies who might try such silly things....

Google has 12,200 reasons that it's important to refuel soon after exercise. But, you should just ignore all that and do you. You're probably different, and you certainly know best.

this was brought up earlier (I think) in this thread. My impression of Dave's post are basically look at me and that he is locked in on his approach to training. He will toss in how its not important how fast he is but always back that up with his amazing results. Also, to imply that his body type is "ideal" is disingenuous at best and possible harmful at worst,

There are definitely cases where it makes since to "refuel" after a workout.
There are definitely cases where it makes since to use "sports nutrition" during a race.

That said... ... these "cases " represent a tiny fraction of the calories that are consumed during training and racing.

MOST CALORIES that are consumed during and after training have NO POSITIVE EFFECT at all. They simply make fat people fatter.

Losing weight is not difficult. Losing weight (when not overweight) and maintaining power and performance is the real art.

Yes, we can look at TDF climbers and emulate their body composition. With a bit of willpower you can get there. But, hardly and amateur would perform at his best at that weight. And certainly not with an approach of starvation and not fueling after workouts. When you wanna do that correctly then you need to bring in a lot of knowledge and self awareness.

It does not count to say "look how skinny I am and how good I do". Usually one could do better with a more conservative weight. I had started myself before and thought my results were good (because of it). Only when I gained some weight back did my performance make another significiant jump. And not in Triathlon but in running where a low weight is even more beneficial.

You would rather be three pounds above your most ideal racing weight than even one pound below. Because at your most ideal racing weight you theoretically perform at your best, but when you drill it a touch too far, things start to fall apart. At least in the long term.
It's a fine line. Pros that walk that line (what not everyone and certainly not every Triathlete does) get a lot of help in doing it. Wiggo for example did regular tests bakäck in 12 when being really thin so that it was not getting counterproductive. And we don't know what gray-area medical help he and others receive(d).

To sum up my point: You can ge t really lean (for example by not eating after training). But to use it for performance enhancing requires a bit more wits.
Otherwise it's likely to be counterproductive.
(Of course under the assumtion that you are not overweight, what I think is not a wide spread problem in a Triathlon forum)

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10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40

Pfft....3 meals a day? You're an amateur. Why do you need to eat EVER?

http://nypost.com/...rgy-instead-of-food/

Yep right on the button

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Considering the number of posts Dave could have responded to, but chose to respond and quote this one, backs up everybody's argument that he's thriving off pushing people's buttons. For an infrequent reader/poster, I'm at least mildly entertained.

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________________________________________________

Why? What value is there to try and have a person who clearly is a snowflake and only wants to do personal attacks and say their opinion is the only right one?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You don't want to discuss with anyone, you just want to share your n=1 and find ways to promote yourself. Ironic that you throw around personal insults and labels in a post about not talking to people because they offer insults...

Have a good race, snowflake...

Hi Dave, I truly consider it an honour to post in your interesting thread. You are definitely a funny and unique guy and I'm sure you probably mean well by everything you've written here. I'd also like to wish you the best of luck in your races this season; I both hope and expect you to crush the competition regardless of their age.

I do suspect and would suggest that you're really confusing the "snowflake" term... if, as you state, a snowflake is someone who would "say their opinion is the only right one" [sic.] then, presumably, this 'snowflake' thinks that everyone should think as they do and act as they do. In other words, everyone should be the same; but, that is exactly opposite of what the term snowflake suggests: which is unique and one-of-a-kind.

I don't think someone who "wants to do personal attacks" [sic.] is a characteristic of a 'snowflake' or not a characteristic of a 'snowflake'.

Regardless, probably just like yourself, I just smile when I hear people use words incorrectly again and again. Sometimes I'll let them know about it... but, other times I don't. It's just... well... Look, I'll leave at that Dave and just finish up this post so you can receive it before your 7pm bedtime tonight.


All the best!

Dave - To clarify this whole issue, it might be helpful to post your daily training, eating, and sleep schedule. This might clear things up a bit. I don't think most readers are aware of your VERY early to bed, VERY early to rise schedule, nor of your meal times. Also, I would be curious how much you taper for races; since you seem to race very often, I'm guessing not a lot but surely you don't train 3 hr/day every day Mon-Sat and then race on Sun???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Dave is using the term based on the right-wing political wave in the US. It is used as a derogatory label and personal attack on people, typically when they have no ability to have a logical debate with someone.

Here is Wikipedia:
Generation Snowflake, or Snowflake Generation, is a neologistic term used to characterize the young adults of the 2010s as being more prone to taking offence and less resilient than previous generations, or as being too emotionally vulnerable to cope with views that challenge their own. The term is considered derogatory.[1][2] It is one of multiple examples of usage of the word "snowflake" to refer to people.

Another from Wikipedia:
Snowflake as a politicized insult is typically used by those on the political right to insult those on the political left.[15] Jessica Roy, writing for the Los Angeles Times, says the alt-right in the United States describes those protesting against Donald Trump as "snowflakes", using the term as a pejorative.[16] A 2017 article from Think Progress commented: "The insult expanded to encompass not just the young, but liberals of all ages; it became the epithet of choice for right-wingers to fling at anyone who could be accused of being too easily offended, too in need of "safe spaces," too fragile".[17] Jonathon Green, editor of "Green's Dictionary of Slang" points out snowflake is an unusual insult in that it calls someone weak and fragile without using misogynistic of homophobic references.[18]

I think his posts are usually interesting - I don't understand why he gets attacked. He's obviously a good athlete - everyone is different and there is no one way to get the best results, but I'm sure most people on here could learn a lot from his methods - they work.

See, there's the problem - there's no way of knowing if they do "work" or not.

Dave may be successful *because* of what he does, or *in spite* of what he does.

It's probably some of the former (a whole lot of consistent training, over time) and a LOT of the latter (pretty much everything else Dave does, or how he does it.).

Dave may be able to "cut down the largest tree in the forest - with a herring!", but I'd prefer to use a chainsaw, or at least an axe.

It's beyond ironic that Dave - the ultimate snowflake; literally nobody else is like him, or does anything like he does - is using that term to refer to others.

I'd rather get and heed advice that works for 99.999% of triathletes, than that which "works" for .001%

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float , hammer , and jog

That's like saying that Usain Bolt could be faster if he didn't eat chicken nuggets. Who cares - it works for him.

For me personally I know that if I do 30 minutes of tempo training first thing in the morning on an empty stomach that I can shed weight very quickly over a short period of time BUT this is not a sustainable after dropping 10 lbs as I plateau. In the winter to keep my weight down I also do micro fasts every Monday. Sunday night I have my normal dinner at around 5pm and I do not eat until 5pm on Monday night and I do a very easy 5km run on the Monday just before dinner. This just works for me.

I do routinely see people trying to shed weight eating way too much after exercising.

Not even remotely the same. Bolt is pushing the boundaries of human achievement in his event, so there is a good chance he is doing it 'right'. I also guarantee that he and his team and turning over stones to see what they might be missing.

Dave just says his way works and refuses to try a different way. Typically based on the flawed theory that he is genetically unable to bike faster, or some variation. For all he knows, he might be the best athlete in a race and massively underperforming. How many can remain at his weight and be healthy, that certainly has a genetic component (assuming his continued racing means he is 'healthy' in a sport context)

Personally, I will never forgive the 2016 election cycle for politicizing "snowflake." It was a real gem of a word ever since its use in Fight Club, but has been forever wrecked thanks to US politics.

For purposes of this thread, however, if "snowflake" ain't off limits, then I guess "cuck" ain't either.

---

Eliot
blog thing - strava thing

Here are some questions:

1) What percentage of "research" on sports nutrition is funded by companies that are in the business of marketing sports nutrition?

2) How many coaches, sports physiologist and other professionals receive some kind of compensation from sports nutrition companies?

3) How is Gatorade, Gu, or Power-aid-better for long term health (I.e. outside competition and hard training), than Hawaiian Punch, gummy bears and sprite?

I'll throw in my n=1 experience with long workouts and post-workout eating habits. I am certainly not as lean as the OP, undoubtedly a much slower runner, and no expert in nutrition -- just getting that out of the way to start. :)

When I am in weight-loss mode, what works well for me after a 2-hour run or 3-hour ride (or longer), is to have mostly high-protein food after the workout (e.g., scrambled eggs, sliced turkey, protein shake etc.) and postpone consuming significant carbs for an hour or more after the workout. The longer I am able to go without consuming many carbs after the workout (to a point, I've never pushed it more than 2-2.5 hours), the bigger the bang I get for fat-burning and weight loss.

If I'm above my desired race weight levels, I can typically drop 0.75-1.5 lbs. in a single session by taking this approach, compared to not losing any weight or even gaining a bit if I eat significant carbs shortly after the workout. Is it a water retention / hydration issue? That I can't say. But for me, this result has been pretty consistent. YMMV.

As far as shorter sessions, I've done them both fasted and fueled, and I can't say I've really noticed much difference one way or the other regarding weight loss. If I go first thing in the morning pre-breakfast, I seem to be good up through the 1-1.25 hours w/o fuel. Train longer than that w/o fueling and my performance begins to suffer.

I would say you are losing water and likely not making significant fat loses. Single sessions or measurements aren't all that useful. 1.5lbs is a huge amount of calories to burn in a single workout.

Of course restricting calories after workouts can help with weight management. Eating some protein instead of carbs will cut the intake post workout and reduce your daily intake as long as it doesn't lead to overeating later in the day.

Yeah, massively misunderstood by right-wing 'folks'.

Apparently an early use was to refer to anti-abolishonists as snowflakes, since they preferred white over black. The term has an odd and varied history.

Will try when i get home from bend and burney in a week. Posting with a cell phone is the pits. I still have to find a way to improve my bike. One friend thinks some gym work would help. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave- you clearly care about how fast you go, as you brag about winning a race. The race had 96 people in it, and was held in Northern California the week after 70.3 Santa Rosa, which had 2300 finishers. Congrats on the win- it is always great to win, but some perspective is probably important. You do note that it is a challenging race- it is.

What is disappointing is your attitude about whether or not eating after working out is important. Study after study has been conducting. A 30 second search will turn up some results. These studies have been done on resistance workouts, endurance workouts, etc. Here are some takeaways:

1) If you eat before a workout, you probably don't need to eat immediately afterwards as your body is still processing the nutrients from that workout (obviously dependent upon how long you workout). It is a good idea to include protein in your meal before a workout.

2) If you don't eat before a workout, you should eat after.

3) There is little evidence to suggest that a low carb, high fat diet helps you metabolize fat faster.

4) Supplementing with protein increases muscle protein synthesis. You only need ~20g of protein for this to happen.

If you want to read more about it, you can search for yourself, or read this or this.

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http://www.savagesentiments.blogspot.com/
http://www.tricoachmartin.com/
https://www.facebook.com/teameverymanjack

My son was a personal trainer and he advised me that If you are properly reducing caloric intake, primarily for weight loss, you can't really train for improved (or even maintained) performance.
You may see some performance/speed gains if you get into decent amounts of weight loss simply because your body is doing less work, but it's best to do the weight loss thing, then switch to gaining performance. And gaining performance will require additional nutrition to fuel that training and increased pace.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

I typically don't eat much after long workout but do eat something so I can keep moving. For weight loss eating nothing after supper and going to bed hungry works.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Yes, those are some questions. I won't disagree with that. But what's your point?

Presumably you're trying to suggest that the idea of eating is a food industry conspiracy?
Of course the sport specific nutrition industry has a vested interest in pushing their products but that's not where all our knowledge comes from. Nor is it the type of food that most in this thread are suggesting is desirable.
Calling conventional wisdom into question is fine, I'm all for it. But if you're espousing a somewhat extreme alternative I think you owe us something to back it up. Surely evidence either matters to you or it does not. I don't think it's reasonable to make assertions without providing any evidence and expect us to accept them. Trying to cast doubt on the value of endorsements of the alternative is NOT the same as discrediting the practice itself (i.e. eating) and does NOT make your own position more credible. IMO


I presume since=sense?

Have you ANY solid evidence for that last statement in bold?
You're the one questioning evidence, so do you have any?
If so I'd be very interested to read it. Maybe I'll learn something, and I like learning something.
If not, I see little reason to take that statement seriously.

"That's like saying that Usain Bolt could be faster if he didn't eat chicken nuggets. Who cares - it works for him."

No, the analogy would be if Usain Bolt claimed that the reason he was fast was because he ate chicken nuggets, and suggested everyone else would be as fast if they too ate chicken nuggets. He's completely convinced that he has no natural ability whatsoever and everything he accomplishes is the result of his superior training methods.

Another H2Oism is to state "I only do slow running in training." and then in another post say "I try to do a tempo run after the bike 3X a week." and when pressed insist "It's only 15 minutes 3X a week." When further pressed about how the two statements can co-exist, he'll say "Look, I won the Lake Oroville Triathlon after snitching on the two leaders for going around the turnaround cone the wrong way. What have you won?"

Lol - FTW!!!

The other thing new(er) posters won't know about Dave, is that whatever training methods he's using at this moment are the One True Way, and nothing anybody else did, does, or ever will do can possibly be better - because, look at my results!!

A decade + ago, Dave's schtick was minimalist training, as he was the lord and master of work/life/family balance, and routinely boasted about his 12 hour IM finish on relatively low volume, and only ever running 3x6 miles per week, and that being the secret sauce for multisport mastery.

Now, he's retired and trains 3hours daily, because he's got nothing better to do, and he's OCD AF.

But that's probably not optimum for almost anybody, and 99.999% of AG'ers couldn't or shouldn't try to emulate that, no matter how "easy" Dave claims it to be.

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float , hammer , and jog

On the surface, I agree with this. But I don't think it's that black and white. After 2015 IMCDA I put on about 25 pounds. I was in fantastic shape before the weight gain. Just about 75 days ago I started seriously training again and targeted Duathlon Nationals here in Bend. It was my carrot and my reason to lose the weight. I put together a training plan that was no different than if I had started at ideal weight and was only trying to get faster. I did lose the weight and got fast (maybe faster). I think through a combination of losing the weight and actually being able to go harder. I really focused on the timing of my nutrition. I was careful to fuel for the sessions properly afterwards. I got fast enough to win Masters for both standard distance and draft-legal sprint (front-door brag, pretty damn proud!).

My training was mostly polarized...no real grey-zone training except the final weeks, 2-, 4-, 8, and 12-minute 100-100% FTP intervals with some piddle pedaling and 9:00/mi. runs.

In the past 3 years I have lost more weight more times than anybody I know. There is nothing anybody can tell me about weight loss that is true that I don't know already. I have tried everything and kept a daily log, first on paper then with Garmin index smart scale and pics. After my last IM I got sloppy over the winter traveling and eating like I was going to the chair. I ended up 30lbs heavier and had to buy all new jeans to accommodate my 34 inch waist. I felt ashamed and knew I had to do something drastic to get back in shape. I started out with a long fast (96hrs) and then began exercising on a restricted diet, lifting weights and cardio. In 70 days I lost the 30lbs of fat and looked and felt better than I did in the fall in addition being able to use my 30inch jeans again. Once the weight loss slowed I added a 36hr fast once a week and that fired it back up and worked great. This is by far the most effective way to shed fat. It works, it sucks going through it but the results are inarguable. Sadly I have had to do this 4 other times in 3yrs. I really like to eat a lot. Honestly I noticed little difference in weight loss wether I did cardio or not and then came across a study that confirmed what I already had figured out:
http://www.nytimes.com/...atherer-workout.html
https://fanaticcook.com/...ns-in-us-and-europe/
It is the resting metabolism that burns the most calories over any given day.
I followed a strict diet and timed my meals and macros. It was very difficult to come home from a long hard day at work and not "treat" myself.
For my 36 hr fasts I would eat in the afternoon on Sunday skip the next day and eat small meal in the morning 2 hours before my workout Tuesday mornings.
I noticed no decrease in strength. For those of you that will say the body will burn muscle for fuel I did not notice it at all, which was no surprise either seeing as that is the purpose of body fat (stored energy)
Research indicates there are a whole host of benefits from fasting for your body, just google it.

Great stuff. Seems like what i hear you saying is the quantity of food you eat more than the when impacts weight.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

This article gives the science behind what you have experienced.

https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/...ass-fasting-part-14/

Yes it does,
Thank you.

The only people I find that argue against this have never tried it.

btw, I formulated my plan mainly from information I got from two books:
Racing Weight and Diet Cults both by Matt Fitzgerald.
and two videos in a old post by DarkSpeedWorks about reversing diabetes
I have read and studied countless other articles and studies as well.

So, four times in three years you have had to go through this process? It would be nice if you could find a way to keep the weight off instead of yo-yoing...

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"Honestly, triathlon is a pussified version of duathlon on that final run."- Desert Dude

yeah, I binge eat on vacations.
I need to stop that.

You're doing it wrong. While fasting might work temporarily for you it would be healthier to figure out how to maintain a healthy weight.

The subject was weight loss and that is what I shared about.

Maintenance...I could use some work on that.
I have a hellacious sweet tooth and once I get started I don't wanna stop.

I'm suggesting your technique for weight loss is not healthy. It would be much better if you dropped .3 lbs/wk rather than 3 lbs. No extended fasting required.

The weight loss it self is what's healthy.
The faster it comes off the better. With out fasting, you loose out on a bunch of healthy effects.
For me it is easier just not to eat then to try and restrict portions too much.
I have a very addictive personality, at times it can be a real bitch, but when possible I try to use it to my advantage.

Here are the links to the videos that DarkSpeedWorks sent me:

http://www.dailymotion.com/...longer-hd_shortfilms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da1vvigy5tQ

Are you training while fasting?

Your fasting heavy approach is fairly extreme and appears to be the result of trying to address a completely unstable body weight and serious cravings. Every study of yo-yo dieting that I'm aware of concludes that people who lose lots of weight fast consistently put it back on, and more often than not they put back on more. Extreme "corrections" lead to instability which almost universally make things worse rather than better in the long run. You talk about the sweet tooth and cravings you can't overcome but are you looking at the very high likelihood that you're causing them? Gradual weight loss when needed, based on habituation to a more healthy long term diet, rather than reliance on will power is demonstrated to work. Trying to use "will power" to resist cravings fails, sooner or later.....always. And if it's an extreme diet the backlash tends to be extreme too. It seems to me your experience supports rather than disproves this. No?


I too have a sweet tooth and I enjoy both cooking and eating.
If I try and lose weight gradually, by which I mean maybe 1-2kg a month (0.5-1lb a week), I find my cravings subside and after I get into the habit it becomes pretty easy to maintain. Nothing extreme is involved. I don't skip any meals, I don't cut out any food types. I just reduce portions a little and progressively, and try to avoid sugary foods the majority of the time. I've lost about 3kg (6.6lbs) in the last 11 weeks according to my records. It was a little hard to get started but easy to continue. It's not dramatic, but that's absolutely fine. What's important is that once it's gone, most of it is unlikely to come back. I've lost a few kg each year for the past 6 years. I was a bit overweight (nothing awful) but now I'm in a healthy range. I could do with losing another 3 or 4 kg to optimise performance. I might get there late in the summer, but more likely it'll be next season. The pattern is very reliable - I lose a few kg between February and September and then it creeps part way back up over winter as I ease up on training from October through December, and take some focus off eating well. So far in 6 years, I've never put back on as much as I've lost. I wouldn't be surprised if there's also a natural seasonal cycle to our propensity for weight gain/loss but I've never looked into it. As long as I'm losing 3 or 4kg in summer and only putting back on 1 or 2kg in winter, that's fine. And I'm pretty much at the stage where I've no need or desire to lose more anyway.


Obviously the rate of weight loss I'm talking about may be too slow for anyone who needs/wants to lose a lot, but I'd still suggest keeping things more gradual and avoiding extreme dieting as a rule of thumb. I'm utterly unconvinced by either your method or Dave's

yes, but it is just a 30 min aerobic run on the day I don't eat, the following morning it is a small meal of oats and protein 2hrs before I get back to the weights and sbr.
You really don't have to though...the big benny comes from losing the weight. Matt does a great job citing and explaining this in Racing Weight.
If all other things remain constant and you drop weight running becomes much easier/faster.

Wow, great link, thank you !

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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"I'm utterly unconvinced by either your method or Dave's "


Take what you can use and leave the rest...
It was a topic I am very familiar with so I thought I would contribute.

If you did want to try it though it would be a win/win situation for you.
Either you win the disagreement or win with weight loss.
I have not met anybody who tried it and regretted it.

How would I win the disagreement?
You're hardly going to change your mind if I were to try it and tell you it didn't work.

How would I win with weight loss?
I've already won with weight loss. My results by the sound of it are far more consistent and reliable than yours. I have no need for a new solution.

Never having met someone who has regretted something does not prove the veracity of the something. It's as much a reflection of those who do the thing.

Given the above, I'm going to maintain my skepticism as I'm not sure whether or not you've used any and therefore can't leverage your opinion.

Side tracking a bit. Dave, do you eat anything during your 3 hour workout? Do you start your workout on an empty stomach, finish a 3 hour run, and continue to fast?

Or do you fuel as much as you think you need during the workout, but make sure you don't take additional calories after?

I eat a breakfast each morning at 4:30. I then exercise various swim/bike/runs each day for about 3 hours, finish around 8:30 to 9. I would never start on an empty stomach. I am not fasting, IMO. I then each lunch always at 12, dinner at 5:30. Depending on what the scale says each night, the amount of food I eat for lunch and dinner can vary daily.

Now, if I became super hunger, I would eat something, but that generally does not happen.

Now after races, like at Bend last weekend, I eat everything I can find. Have done this for 5 days now since I was on vacation. Will see what the scale says tonight.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

On a related note, I would highly recommend that anybody frustrated with weight loss study the role of insulin in the body and learn how to use it to your advantage. Insulin does many things but it is key in fat storage.

Thanks for the insight. That's a great regime and food for thought for the rest of us. I think that's something I can try.

Based on the title of the post, I wasn't sure how long you avoid food. This provides a lot more context.

My wife was talking about this on our way back from Bend. Since I am such a bean pole, she was talking to someone who asked what I eat each day.
They were blown away with how much food I eat, both in quantity and quality, and how skinny I can stay. And when we go on trips and folks see how much I can eat, they are just blown away.

Other factors. I live in a 3.5 story house on a hill so I am always walking up and down.

Since I have no desk job, I am always moving, working on something usually outside.

And yep, I never ever would "fast". One needs to start with a good breakfast. No snacks. Portion control. And let the scale be your guide.

Again, the take away from this article and MANY other I read, and article I read from folks who have lost a lot of weight, and kept it off, is
eating after exercise is probably the worst thing one can do for losing weight. And if one is not at race weight, even talking about performance is, well, .....

If you want to be right, do not ask help from poor folks.

If you want to be skinny, why would you ask input from folks over weight?

If I want to get faster on the bike, I sure do not talk to folks who ride slow like me. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Are we talking about the same guy who "hates vegetables", binges on cookies and ice cream bars when the scale reads a bit lower than nornal and seems to believe that Dennys is a health food restaurant;)

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Yep, that is me. Stopped and had breakfast at Denny's this morning on the way home from my vacation at Bend and then Burney. But, I have this feeling of not checking the scale a week, and pigging out the last few days after the race, that no cookies or ice cream for a while. :( And only had a banana for lunch today since I ate everyone's left overs at breakfast this morning. I have NO trouble eating, but racing is more important than food, for me.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave - This eating/workout schedule is pretty much what i was recalling from past threads. So, you're not doing a 3-hr workout on an empty stomach and, while you don't eat right after the workout, you do eat lunch about 3 hr later, then dinner 5 hr after that. Thus you're fueling up with a good breakfast, then refueling with lunch and dinn, with no p.m. workout to worry about since you've already done plenty in the a.m. I think some people thought you were saying you trained 3 hr on an empty stomach, and did not refuel for several hr afterward, which is clearly not the case.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Bang on. Despite the OP saying that he trains similarly to the description in the article, Dave in fact doesn't do anything similar to the article and has a full meal prior to exercise. The article describes having a cup of coffee or green tea, not full breakfast within the hour prior to exercise.

Not responding just to you but to everybody still going on this thread...

There's really no need to attack Dave, when you can very easily just discredit the author of the article. There's a picture of the author rowing in the article which caught my eye as he's showing incredibly poor and frankly dangerous rowing technique (I used to both row and coach rowing). So I clicked on the pic, and sure enough in the comments under it a number of people commented on his technique and his response is "I am aware of rowing technique, this position showed off my abs and lats more!".

I think this says everything you need to know about the author and his intended audience. He's not giving advice for performance athletes, he's targeting people who want to look good on Instagram. Nothing wrong with that (well maybe there is, but that's a whole different conversation!), but it really has no relevance on a triathlon forum.

I never ever said I trained on an empty stomach.

I did say I never eat directly after a workout. I just finished 1.5 hours on the bike. No food. After my 1.5 hour run, no food until lunch.

I am just always amazed how some folks read into something that was never stated, let alone attack on it. But, this is the world of fake new and social media, lets not true to seek to understand first, and make sure things are facts before responding, or attacking.

I would never train, or race on an empty stomach. I am just not a pig directly after thinking because I exercised, I can used this as a reason to pig out, ignoring what
a scale shows.

I gained a number of pounds the last few days with no exercise and eating lots. So back to the diet to see what race weight I can get to before Sundays race.

Yep, no PM workouts, other than getting to bed no later than 7 most of the time.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Wow, someone who looked more at the details. Like most articles, it is talking to 99% of the population, not the 1%ers

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"I never ever said I trained on an empty stomach."

You titled the OP- Why exercising on an empty stomach is the secret to weight loss. Your first sentence was- Pretty close to how I train.

Do you not see how one might think that you trained on an empty stomach?

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"Honestly, triathlon is a pussified version of duathlon on that final run."- Desert Dude

"Why exercising on an empty stomach is the secret to weight loss [h2ofun]"

"Pretty close to how I exercise. And I do not eat anything after my 3 hour workouts. "

I guess "pretty close" gives you a slight loophole, but only in the world of alternative facts. You link to an article about training in a fasted state to work on fat metabolism. You state that you basically train in a similar way as described in the article. Then you add more info about how you also don't eat after a workout, something not really discussed in the article. Care to explain your alternative facts (ie lies)?

Now I'm really confused as to what you actually do.

The OP you said you train pretty close to what the article said ("exercising on an empty stomach") Now you say you would never do that.

Portion control and just 3 meals a day, but your family is amazed at the quantity of food you eat.

I'm confused.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

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Yeah, this was the weird thing to me -- what I had called out. If I do 3 hours of easy endurance exercise, I wouldn't eat either immediately after, and I think what you're saying makes total sense, especially in light of the breakfast first. But if I do any kind of hard workout, running or biking, and especially if it was 90 minutes or more in length, I'd absolutely want (and recommend, as we went over above), a little somethin', and if I didn't eat directly afterwards, I'd feel flat over the next 24-36 hours until I got at least some of those calories back.

Now, in some cases (and by some people) this is recommended, and some folks disagree, it's fine. But all I was saying is, it's recommended to shift some of those breakfast or lunch calories to right after the session.

It occurs, too, that if I was to do a really hard session in the morning, I couldn't eat a full meal until after, but maybe Dave's got even more of a cast iron stomach than I do :-)

-E

I'm not even sure it's talking to 99% of the population. For the vast majority who just want to get a bit leaner and fitter I really don't think they need to worry about fine tuning the timing of their calories, they just need to eat less and/or do more. This guy really seems to be aiming at those who want to get down to <10% bodyfat and post Instagram pictures of themselves looking ripped. And I guess possibly a target population of people who like looking at remarkably toned young men in skimpy clothing...

I'm not getting up at 4.30 and going to bed at 7pm however lean and / or fast it makes me.

And bingeing on / denying myself food doesn't float my boat - let alone living life according to what the scales say.

The OP is undoubtedly disciplined, naturally gifted and successful but I'm not sure that fits in with my idea of a "healthy" or "balanced" lifestyle.

But each to their own..............

LG

totally agree

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep, not at all saying anyone wants my lifestyle.

I still thought it was interesting in the poll over 50% said they wanted to lose weight.

Bottom line is the folks I see at races on the Podium are very disciplined folks. If that is ones goal, one has to do what one has to do.

I usually get up at 4 :)

Am lucky my wife gets up each morning the same time and makes me breakfast. My angel.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

What, Dave misstating and/or misunderstanding something, then quintupling down about it in a thread, only to be shown to be completely off base?

That never happens.
/ pink.

Im somehow simultaneously shocked and also completely unsurprised about Dave's level of misunderstanding of this topic., and how it pertains to him (or rather, doesn't - since it's not at all what he does.)

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float , hammer , and jog

how dare you use logic, reasoning and previously written words by the OP in this thread that is running on pure emotion.

Fake news! Snowflake!

I don't really see why going to bed at 7 and getting up at 4am offers any benefit over going to bed at 10 and getting up at 7am anyway! If you're getting the sleep you need and fitting in training, then it really doesn't matter what your schedule is. Comes down to personal preference, work and family commitments, sunset and sunrise in your geography, etc.

Totally agree! Some of us are day folks, some of us are night folks.

As long as one tries to get at least 8 hours of sleep, does not matter when you get it.

Again, never said my schedule works for anyone else. I just love being done with exercise by 9am.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

+1000!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Hahaha. Isn't it how all of his threads unravel?

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Formerly DrD

In an effort to start this thread again...can you explain what part of the article is 'pretty close to how I exercise'?

What we all need isn't your diet strategy
- but your wife :-)

Respect !!!!!

I am SO lucky to have an angel for a wife that does all the cooking, shopping, supports my races, etc.

But payback is taking the entire family to Disneyland in October. Staying at a hotel at the lake by the race venue in Penticton. I am one very very lucky guy. How many wifes lets a husband buy 4 Velotrons? :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Compared to owning 4 Velotrons getting up at 4 and going to bed at 7 seems perfectly rational hahaha :-)

Double respect