Daaaayuum old ss you so fine. Thanks for sharing

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Old SS FTW! I have two SS 23s tires left and they're going to pry them from my cold dead hands. Last month when I got home from a race I realized I forgot my front wheel in the parking garage. I drove 30mi back to get it and all I could think about was how I was going to replace that Conti SS tire :) Screw the $500 FLO CC wheel... I want my SS back!

Cool. Can we get the y-axis in terms of CdA? Or else indicate air speed and density that the power values represent?

If you'd like, I could create a combined aero+Crr estimate for the Corsa Speed and the old SS23 (since I have Crr values for them).

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Just remember that once you take into account Crr, the CS most likely "wins" over the old SS23 out to at least 5d of yaw angle (if not higher)...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Also...is this with fixture tare removed or included?

I find it interesting that the drag of the CS on that wheel goes up between 5 and 10d of yaw angle. In my Win Tunnel test with the 24C Turbo Cotton, the values continued to decline out to 10d.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Did you happen to measure the widths of tires when inflated? Wondering how much is due to shape/construction and how much is just that narrower tires are more aero.

I would love to see the results combined with Tom A's Crr data. Seems like that Vittoria tire has everything going for it other than being easy to mount with a tube. Maybe that is going to be what finally makes this tubeless for the road thing get some traction.

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

Yup...that's what I've been thinking. Someone finally figured out how to make a tubeless tire with a decent casing...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

My eyeball combination with Crr indicates this as a clear win for the CS.

The power of the CRR compels you!!!! :)

 
Thanks for the data. Too bad I'm in New Zealand already. ;-(

Actually, I don't think it would have changed my choice at all. What is clear from both Tom's test and yours, is that the Jet+ wheels are very sensitive to width around the 26C range for a mounted tired. Below that, and you're good. Above that, and your drag heads south. That's why a slightly narrower Supersonic outperforms a wider one and the 25C TT is a piece of crap (aerodynamically). in short, none of the best rolling tires are aerodynamically optimal with this wheel.

Hence my choice of the old 808 with 20C Crono tubular. Still the best combination of aerodynamics and Crr around.

It's a shame you didn't test some narrower tires. I think there might be hope for the new 20C SS.


I

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H3
Hed deep
808 (pre dimple)
Campy shamal
Velocity deep v
iO
Ultimate narrow rim showdown 2017?

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

My 808s are actually Z8s, which are a couple of generations post-dimple. I do think there is still promise in the older Hed wheels however, the H3 in particular. This whole business of rotating drag intrigues me.

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My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

Would you expect a 23 mm GP TT to be comparable aerodynamically to the new 23 mm SS?

Maybe if you're confident you'll never see high yaw. And you don't mind the harsher ride.

My A-race TT last year had me over 10 deg yaw (as estimated by BestBikeSplit) for 47 out of 48 minutes. The old 808 wouldn't have been a good choice out there. While a wider wheel, say the 808FC, gives up very little at low yaw (I'm not totally convinced your combo would win at zero yaw), but can win big at higher yaw.

...and I was averaging 29MPH in that TT, so it's not about me going *that* slow. 29MPH is decently fast.

 No because it is wider.

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

I thought the new SS is the GP TT without the Vectran belt.

If you could only get it on and off the rim, they would be the obvious choice at this point.

Well how about they just make it a goddamn clincher instead of tubeless and we call it the best tire ever?

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

They have one, I guess it's just slow?

Out of curiosity, can I ask why you chose the variable pressures for each tire? Also, how did you measure the pressure?

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

I wonder how much of this I can extrapolate to my Hed C2 rims which I think are 2mm narrower across the brake track. We've seen data for the Flo rims but they are also wider.

For my Renn disc I'd like to think I just go for the Corsa because it is in a P3C and the leading edge is fared. But I recall somebody clever telling me that the trailing edge matters aswell.

Damn, what to do.

Thanks for sharing Thomas.

It may still be correct since TT was tested at 25 and SS at 23.

We chose various pressures because in our opinion you are going to ride the the tires at different pressures. I definitely realize there is no true apples-to-apples comparison and everyone will choose slightly different pressures. In addition the Enve 7 data will be coming out as well. We ended up doing two wheels and three tires instead of the three wheels and two tires.

Fwiw, we also tried to match valve extenders and keep them as short as possible. The HED JET+ we used a 72mm tube (60mm depth) and on the Enve we used 82mm (71mm depth).

Had I had more time I would have reached out to Josh to use a Silca pump for testing, and although there was a Silca pump there it was old and the dial was too small to read properly. We ended up using my Topeak Joe Blow. I realize it is $40 and this is the second one of these I have had in 8 years or so. I consider it to be a great pump, easy to use, and based on the Amazon reviews others tend to concur. As for the accuracy, I am sure it isn't accurate as the Silca pump. I can say I did some pressure testing last year of a different sort and the pump seemed consistent. I was measuring # of strokes to get to a certain PSI.

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Of course Tom, I would like to provide more details. More to come and I'll get you what you need to compute the aero+crr. I also have the Enve 7 data to work thru too. Btw, I listened to your appearance on the cycling TT podcast. You kept me awake on the way up there and ENTERTAINED!!! Also, I have decided to make a permanent residence in Clermont FL. Frankly, I can't keep driving my ALL my possessions twice a year across the US and decided I need to keep one place 9-10 months where I can train and keep stuff. I don't plan to go nuts with stuff, but I would like to get a set of rollers and do some of my own testing as you have encouraged others to do.

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I am sorry, I wish I could have gotten out sooner but just wasn't possible making the drive back and then putting in 5+ training day. I hope you have a great race regardless.

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Congrats on the Clermont decision. Having lived there years ago, it's a great training environment and I hope to move there myself one of these years.

Thomas, great stuff.

I would annotate the Conti SS 23 as "New-Old" or "Old-New" so as to differentiate from the old-old SS that was pre-black chili and pre-tall aero shape.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I would say old 808 or even 1080 with Conti SS 20mm "old-new"

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Just order the 23mm Corsa. I put one on my Zipp FCs last night and they pass the eyeball aero test quite well. The odd thing is that they are noticably narrower than the Corsa G+ tires in the same 700x23 size

I had a set of the original 808s. They started out as a dimpled, tubular only rim.

In light of this I'm very interested to see if/how the results change with the Enve 7 wheel that is even wider than the Jet+. I've been riding the 25mm TT on this wheel the past year and am interested to see if the RR benefit of the 25 stacks up with any CDA advantage of the super wide rim that Enve has said from the outset. I'm curious just how much or little benefit a 23 CS or SS might be over the 25TT

Yep you are right. Gotta brush up on my zipp history

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

It didn't seem that difficult to me...and that was on a HED+ rim (and on a classic Open Pro before that).

Besides, like I've mentioned before, if you're going to run that tire, I'd plan on fixing punctures in a way that doesn't require breaking a bead off the rim. It actually can be one of that tire's advantages IMO (quick/easy puncture repair, that is) :-)

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How difficult was it to install on the FC? Have you tried removing it? It was a PITA to install/remove on an enve 7.8. I've switched to an 808 nsw and super 9 and hoping it's easier

yes please

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Yes please x2 on the combined aero / rr :)

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24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
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Can you measure it? I'd imagine the 17c inner on the Zipps helps with the shape of the tire.

Thanks yep, I am going to back and do proper job highlighting various things for posterity reasons.

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Thanks so much for providing this data, very interesting. I'm surprised the Vittoria CS was so much more aero than the TT. I ran the CS on the rear wheel last year and looks like I'll run one on the front as well this year.

Anyone have any experience converting Zipp Firecrest to tubeless? I ran a latex tube with sealant in the CS last year.

Thanks Gary. Yes, I really love it here. You know as someone who commutes everywhere by bike the Tucson mornings can be very very cold (relatively) and my body just does better in heat and humidity. Just a small really dirt cheap place, but it is something and is less than rent I pay. I really liked Tucson and the riding is much better but everything is so close and small in Clermont and the community of athletes could not be better. To be able to ride my bike 2 miles to the Splash and Dash at Waterfront park is awesome. NTC with 50 meter LCM is 1.5 miles in other direction. Clermont for me = simplicity

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That GPTT is a 25mm. Not sure if you caught that. It is pretty big 25mm too. Especially on that rim.

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FWIW on an older FC 808 with a tube it wasn't terrible. On a 1st gen shimano dura ace wheel (with the crossed spokes) it was "nearly terrible".

Well, this thread is certainly starting off interesting...

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Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

Tom A: I sent a message to Geoff to find out exactly and here is what he said:

"We’ve had many questions about the wheel/bike mounts being tared out of the results. We and most of our clients (including wheel manufacturers) do not tare out the balance as the results would then be unrealistically skewed especially at yaw where parts of the wheel would potentially be in the aero “shadow” of the strut and the other strut would potentially be in the “shadow” of the wheel. Mounting is one of the known draw backs of all wind tunnel testing."


Tom A: What did you guys do at the Specialized tunnel.

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No wonder he didn't get back to me. He probably passed out right after. Nice catch.

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Glad you found a good place. I also love the warmer temps. I used to like riding our towards Groveland, Howie in the Hills, Leesburg and further north. I lived right next to Palisades Golf Club, so it was easy getting out. NTC was also awesome with the pool and track. I'm not sure if it has changed much, but it sure was enjoyable.
Happy ( and jealous) for you....

Care to make a guess as to how a 23 GPTT would have plotted on your aero chart.

I really think it is the same tire. I am sure the Vectran belt adds a little bit of surface area and could change the shape ever so slightly. If you want to go as fast possible I think you always choose the SS over the TT. If you are worried about flats I suggest always buying a couple extra tires and riding them in training until you comfortable with durabilty.

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Can you put up the Enve 7 data?

So a good guess would be that the 23 mm GPTT would be equivalent aerowise to the new 23 mm SS. I have made the switch to GPTTs this year from GP4000s - baby steps to the SS.

Thanks for the kind words...nothing worse than a boring podcast. I'm glad we made it entertaining for you. Did you know there was a part 2?

It's good to hear you're going to get started on taking your own data. Let me know if you have any questions.

As to the fixture tare, I was only asking because it's good to note. Sometimes it's removed, and sometimes not. The Specialized data includes the fixture drag...then again, having seen the fixtures (and the sections) and discussed this with Cam and Chris, it's pretty safe to say that their fixture adds VERY minimal drag, even out to higher yaw angles.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I don't think it is safe to assume that. I would assume the drag profile would be similar but more drag

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It is going to be a bit still for Enve 7 data and I am still deciding what to do with it frankly. I still DO need to put more work into the HED JET+6 Black data for real and do a better job before I even think about the Enve 7 data. The only reason I put up the HED data in such poor display is because so many people were curious what tires to run and I wanted to make sure I let them decide.

I said in the GoFundMe if the threshold wasn't reached I would do one wheel and two tires. It wasn't reach and I did one wheel and four tires. I may save the Enve data for the time being for the people who donated to the campaign and took a chance on this and offer it as a reward in order to encourage future research and giving of this sort of model. I may also offer it to them early and then release later on. I haven't decided. Ultimately the dollars that were raised were done so by a very small number of people, only 25, many who gave a lot, almost too much. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the undertaking that Kiley put in for his piece. This was a crazy amount of work planning, traveling, doing etc with lots of work still to be done.

I really want to see more of this sort of testing and I think someone actually could even make a business here, but the business only works if people are willing to support the independent model. The independent model can't be supported by advertising, sponsors etc for obvious reasons which means there needs to be critical mass of people who are willing to donate a Starbucks coffee to read something while they have their Starbucks coffee.

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Totally agree with this. I didn't see the campaign prior to you going but have donated. Thanks for all the work!

Thanks for the support of the campaign. I sent you a little teaser DM in case you were interested in which wheel to run/purchase etc.

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Thanks!

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

So is the corsa speed a race day only tire or could I use it as an everyday tire too? I'm definitely mounting a set tubeless on my jet + disc and 9 for tri race day, but now I'm thinking of just mounting a pair tubeless on my everyday 6+ set too as I'm going to be doing a lot of cycling racing over the summer.

Frankly I would love some feedback from some everyday users. I have seen mixed reviews of the tire, but just like the Supersonic, I wonder if that is because people don't know to install it. From people that I trust to install correctly, aka Tom A, it seems to be ok.

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Well, I'm not an everyday user, but I have done one 50 mile test ride with them on a HED 6+/9+ set.

The first time I tried mounting that tire was very difficult. I will say I'm not very experienced mounting tires and it got a lot easier after the first.

I ran them with vittoria latex tubes and conti valve extenders with orange seal. They felt very fast to me. Planning to run them at 70.3 Santa Rosa now that I've seen this data.

Actually very easy to install on the Firecresr. I was running a pair of the Corsa G+ tires before and they were almost too loose. I had a G+ blowout the other day on the rear and the bead was off the tire completely on one side and partially on the other. The TLR seems just a smudge tighter than the G+. The TLR is no harder to install on the FCs than a GP4000. The installed width at 105 psi was 0.935", which I think is 23.5ish mm. I have been testing them on my rollers and they are the fastest tire I have in my arsenal.

That's great to hear! Order placed. I'm just wondering now if it's safe to do a tubeless conversion or just run latex tubes with sealant.

for those running tubeless....are you just finding a threaded valve extender and running a nut down onto the carbon?

That is slightly concerning. The reason I gave up on cotton-based clinchers in the first place is because they were repeatedly blowing off my Firecrest rims on hot and humid days. It never happened while racing, but I can only image if it did. The problem with the blowoff is that it goes flat almost instantaneously. The same thing was not happening with blown rubber tires and that is how I actually landed on the Supersonic way back in I think 2011

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That's not going to happen though with a rim that has the tubeless-ready raised rim bed areas under the bead. I noticed that with Turbo Cottons on the Jet+. They're "locked on" and you have to force the beads off the shelf sideways with your thumbs to unseat them.

As far as "everyday" use goes...I have at least 600-700 miles on the CS I set up tubeless on my rear Jet+. It seems to be wearing fine (not excessively fast) with only 2 "incidences", neither of them major...and both arguably being evidence in favor of the approach. First, was a small staple I noticed prior to a lunch ride (where I was under time constraints) that had embedded in the tread. In hindsight, I should've spun the tire before pulling it out, or left it in for the short ride. I didn't...I pulled it out and then dealt with a bit of sealant spraying out. It was a tiny hole (too small to use a plug on) and I knew the sealant would hold eventually, but at first it wouldn't hold >60psi without blowing out the sealant "clot". I grabbed a different bike for the ride and by the time I got back an hour later it could hold full pressure.

The second incident was during an after-work "crit practice"...going through some turns, the rear felt "loose" and actually slid out slightly. Fearing it was losing air, I stopped and sure enough, it had. I took a look around the tire for something that had punctured it, and only saw a small bit of sealant in one of the tread grooves. Wiped it off and didn't see a hole. I gave the tire a few spins, grabbed my frame pump (Silca Impero Ultimate :-) and pumped it back up. Held fine for the rest of the night.

Other that...its been great. Holds air better than a latex tube, too. I probably should pull the valve core and top off the sealant soon...just in case ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

x2. I have CS on my Jet+ (front and rear) and I have maybe 400 miles on my trial run including competitive group rides over some bad pavement, and one circuit race.

All systems go so far, though I haven't had a flat of any kind to test sealability. Corner grip was great (circuit race had a 180-turn I was killing people on). No evidence of excessive wear or tears.

They seem at least comparable to the Supersonic in durability, and maybe better than the old Evo CX clinchers, which I thought were quite fragile.

I did notice one small issue I had from installation on the Jet+ - on one wheel I tightened down the stem nut so much that it deformed the carbon fairing just slightly. So some care is needed with the Jets on finding a balance between rock-solid stem seal and not deforming the fairing.

What kind of "nut"? I highly recommend something that has a cap-shaped spacer under it like the Silca tubeless valves (I think American Classic might have one too) to spread the load over a wider area.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Yeah, I am using the Silva aero thing. I probably just went overboard, which I've been known to do.

Are you using this?

https://silca.cc/...ers-with-speedshield

Ya I think the G+ will get saved for running on my Flo 30s. I had a latex tube in the wheel and everything had been fine for 2 or 3 weeks of riding. I was doing an interval on a slight uphill grade when the tire blew, so there was no excessive heat issue. My experience is that you know you have a bad latex install within the first hour of riding, so there wasn't an obvious installation error.

My theory is that between the loose tire/rim combo, the less well defined contour of the carbon rim bead, and the multiple inflation/partial deflation cycles of the latex tubes, the tube may have been able to start working its way under the tire. I have never had this issue running latex on an aluminum Flo or HED wheel (8 different wheels).

No, we're referring to these:
https://silca.cc/...e-kit-w-speed-shield

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Gotcha, thanks

I've been testing them by running one as a front tire in training (which includes some gravel and dirt), and I also ran one as a front tire in a 60mi road race with famously bad pavement (about 20% of the field flats out, maybe more). I've also been running one as a rear in TTs. This is all with tubes, and I've had zero incidents so far.

The reason I even tried this at all is that they appear to be pretty robust to me. Vittoria also claims they are fairly puncture proof -- rating the clincher version 9/10. I thought I would test that out. I think it's too early to say, and I would want to run one on the rear before declaring the experiment a success. However, so far it looks promising.

Good to know. Thanks for the data point. I am going to start doing some testing soon as well and running these in training.

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You really need to watch the hed video, the tire bead needs to be centered in the rim valley in order to install these. Over and over people seem to miss this on Hed wheels.

I can mount them with my fingers as long as the tire bead is in the rim center.

I have been running a CS on a Kinlin XR31T rim on the rear of a road bike, something over 500km and no issues so far. It is quite challenging to mount (I know about the center of the rim thing) both as tubeless and with an inner tube, these tyre levers helped immensely.

I spent 2 hours yesterday trying to install a new Corsa Speed Plus (tubeless) onto a Zipp 808 FC and could not get the tire to inflate. I knew it was going to be a problem right from the start. I used Silca's platinum tubeless rim tape and valve and that end of things looked great. While most people have experienced difficulty mounting this tire because it was too tight I found just the opposite. This tire easily (way too easily) slipped onto my rim. With the tire as loose as it was I couldn't get it to seat onto he rim even using my garage 2 HP compressor and blasting the air in as fast as it would go. The air just kept blowing out the sidewall. Plenty of sealant and soapy water did not help. Looks like I'll be forced to use a tube. On the other hand, my Dash Cycle disc was picture perfect. The tire mounted as expected and inflated instantaneously just using my floor pump. A little disappointed but not the end of the world.

When doing tubeless Mtb set ups, if tires are too easy to mount sometimes 3 wraps of tape solved the problem

I've been running Turbo Cotton or new-new SS 23mm for the last two years with latex tubes pretreated with sealant and have had zero flats, except for the one time when I let my tires go all the way flat and pumped them back up without following JackMott Protocol (tm) and got a pinch flat in the first minute of the ride

As Tom A. says, life is too short to ride on bad rubber and he's right. I could probably ride your worn-down SS 23mm rear tire that I bought from you with no issues.... just don't ride in the gutter.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

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Appreciate the tip. Thank you. I did use the recommended double wrap. I'll try it with 3 next time and see how it goes. Makes sense. It pushes the tire closer to the rim and should help it seal.

Which tape width did you use? About to try this myself, it's my understanding you need to use the wider tape so it rolls up onto the sides of the rim to provide a good seal.

Hoping I don't have the same problems as you...

I first tried the 25 mm tape. It was just too wide. Almost impossible to get that wider tape to fit the rim without it folding over onto itself near the rim edge. The 21 mm tape was perfect. I'm going to try 3 layers like ridenfish39 suggested. Good luck.

Part of the problem is that Zipp doesn't have a Tubeless Ready rim shape. Some people may have been able to make them work, but the internal shape really helps with seating the tire.

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Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

I just spent another hour using 4 wraps of tape and this wheel/tire combo will still will not seat. Probably for the best. As you pointed out about Zipp wheels not being "tubeless ready" I probably would have rolled that wheel right off that rim going around a curve anyway. A loose tire on a non-tubeless wheel is probably something I don't want to take a chance on. My ass hitting the pavement at 25 miles per hour is not what it use to be.

So yes what Heath said but I will add, if you have experience with the Enve 7 SES or HED JET+ they have a trough in the middle. The trough is where the tire has to be to get the bead on, but then when you pump up the tires, the tires literally start to pop out of the trough, make a loud popping sound, and then seat in the rim 'hooks'. The trough allows you to mount the tire, while keeping the tire nice and tight once it pops out of the trough. I can't remember what the Roval is like as they still haven't shown up. They were supposed to be here last Saturday :(

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Yep, that's what you want for your setup. You're more than welcome to come over and we can set it up sometime. I'll set mine back up for the duathlon this weekend and have all the stuff sitting out already.

Are you opposed to just running it with a latex tube? No crr hit there.

Hey NoLegs - Have you actually ridden that Gretchen at all? Wondering how the brake track is. I'm very tempted to get one so I can run these tubeless as well.

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

Only had them on my rollers as a "disaster check" and so far so good. My first real world experience will be on May 14th with a 10.5 mile sprint. If you can wait that long I'll post back on how they performed.

No, but I already have the "old" Supersonic with a latex tube and was just looking for that extra couple of watts.

I have been running a set of these tubeless with 50ml Caffelatex, on Hed Jet Disc+ and 9+. No flats on the road in about 400 miles. Apparently, I did accidentally lock the rear wheel in my last race. It lost a little air but I finished in ignorant bliss. Later in the day I came back from a recovery spin and noticed the flat spot, and that the rubber had balled up quite a bit at the end of it. I started picking off the balls. Mistake. Now it don't hold air anymore. So don't do what I did.

I was running the front one with 2 valve extenders and no nut at all! As long as you don't ever push out radially on the valve, its just fine. The valve stem seal works without any preload. I think its a Stans stem. Ordering some of the Silca valves now though.

Glad to hear these are OK in hard corners as that was a concern of mine given my wide rims and the narrow tread rubber width.

As a contributor, thanks for the data!

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Jim Verheul
JBV Coaching.com

Thanks, appreciate that!

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

OK. I think I need to switch to to the CS tires (from the old SS tires). I presume they'll mount just fine on my Flo 60 (alloy) rim and Renn 555 disc, correct?

I'm completely ignorant about tubeless. I think the Flo rim is tubeless capable; I have no idea about the Renn 555 disc rim. I'm wondering if I should go this route, or just stay with latex tubes. If I go tubeless, what's needed? Are there any good online instructions for tubeless installation? With the data showing equal performance for latex and tubeless, it seems that tubeless would give me the advantage for punctures, and thus preferred over the latex tube option.

Michael

Cool, thx. What is the best sealant to use? Stans? Or vittoria?

I've been using Orange Seal to good success...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

s

I have run my tlr on a 404 and an old Specialized TriSpoke with a latex tube. Neither is tubeless and they work fine.

Hey Thomas,

I have a doubt: you tested the CS in tubular version or in clincher?
Amazon link is a tubular tire (I guess) and I havent found any more info about tires than those links!

Thanks!

The Amazon link is for the clincher. "Tubuless" is an Amazon typo for "Tubeless," not "tubular."

Thomas tested the tubeless clincher, but used a tube for practicality.

Correct we tested the tubeless version, it is a clincher tire. More updates to come soon.

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Alright, I've jumped in. Got 2 VCS coming from probikekit for $50 each. Got silca tubless valve stems coming, and some orange seal. Plus the plug kit TomA is "plugging."

I'm going to mount these on my jet 6+s and ride the shit out of them. Drop rides, crits & road races. Once I'm comfortable I know what I'm doing with this tubeless setup I'll make the switch on my jet + disc & 9.

What plug kit is this. I think I might want to try it as well.

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http://365cycles.com/genuine-innovations-tubeless-tackle-tire-repair-kit-with-bacon.html?fee=1&fep=43947&gclid=CKe12q7gwtMCFUpLDQodeyIHNA

This: https://www.amazon.com/...s+tubeless+tire+plug

I've only seen it NOT work once now...and that was on a fairly wide slice on an off-road ride that required multiple plugs to even attempt closing. It initially held, but the riding surface was so rough that it didn't stay in there long. Not something you'd worry about in a road application.

Besides the included rubber coated plugs, I've also had good luck with pieces of cotton butcher's cord, which soak up the sealant and give it something to "clot" on...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Gotcha, I was mistaken. I thought Sean was talking about plugs instead of rim strips. I did see these patching details before

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Hey trail,

So there are no drawbacks using a tube "inside" this tubeless CS? Would it be the same as using a "normal" clincher with a victoria latex tube?

Thanks for clearing those questions for me!

Regards,
Stefano

To no one in particular ...

Anyone try, or have thoughts on, using SS20 (as in a new-old SS20) on an 808 Firecrest?

vs. either new SS23 or Corsa Speed?

Yes.



After installation, no. The only drawback specific to this tire seems to be risk of pinching the tube given the tight installation of the CS. But once you've got it installed and proven to be not pinched, then you'd be good to go.

unless you get a flat then have to change the tube on the road. which is why I'm going tubeless with the puncture kit.

Hi Thomas,

I knew you said it would be a while before you you might share the Enve 7 data and you were not sure if you would share or who you would share with... but I'm wondering if there is an update on that for two reasons :
- I have not seen any numbers from A2 tunnel with Enve 7 and it would be great to see how it compares to Hed Jet 6 !
- We saw GP TT 25 result on a rim that is 25mm at brake track, now I'm curious to know how that same tire react on a rim supposeed to be design for 25 tires... does the difference gets smaller relative to SS 23 and CS 23 ?

By the way I participated in the Go Fund Me, I was late into the game though as I missed your original announcement due to business trip on the other side of the planet with little access to internet, but defintely a good idea, hope we will see more independent test results like this !

Ok so if I am running the GP4SII how many watts am I sacrificing to the CS and the SS? 3watts a tire? It can't be much more than that, is it? That would equate to 20-30sec over 40km?

I am going to be doing a couple of HIM that will be on some roads that are not exactly in the greatest conditions. The luxury of living in the north, I have not had any issues at all with my GP4SII's.

I am giving up a lot of time, I will have to rethink my approach, i.e. chances of a flat, time to change flat, vs not getting a flat and saving time and watts.

You seem to have already come to the conclusion that the GP4000 is more flat resistant than the CS. I ride both tires in all sorts of conditions and have never noticed that one is more flat resistant than the other. In fact I flatted a GP4000 last we after I had just switched from the CS.

The CS is more expensive and has a lower Crr and higher CdA, that we know, but I am unaware that anyone has found it to be more flat prone, fragile, shorter lifespan... I remeber Tom A rode his Turbo cottons in all sorts of conditions and never found it to be lacking for general riding.

Basically I wouldn't worry about the CS. If you are going to hit something that punctures a tire, it is probably going through any tire short of a Specialized Armadillo, but then the Armadillo takes about 20 more watts per tire to roll at 30 mph.

I have the SS20 and the VCS TLR but I'm not sure what is faster. SS20 looks pretty fast though.

This is the type of response I was looking for. My only reason coming to the very slight pre conclusion that the GP4000 wasn't as flat prone was because of the vector layer it has compared to nothing that the CS has. But if the tire has proven to no have issues and has somewhat of a sustainable tread life, it is obviously on of the no brainers to ride on.

Yeah I am not going to race on the Armadillo or Gatorskin, no sense in trying to ride up hill even on the flats!

I don't think the relative flat resistance can be gauged by the anecdotal experience of one rider. You'd need either a controlled lab test or a test involving larger populations of riders.

For those that donated feel free to send me a message about Enve data. I will share it with you now as a thank you for contributing and to give donors something special in return. Despite the initial GoFundMe only promising one set of data for an underfunded campaign at time of testing - about $700 raised at time of testing, I am happy to experiment with this model. It continues to amaze me the personal questions I get about this study yet people couldn't contribute a Starbucks latte. As sociologist hobbyist I find it fascinating.

Anyway, the stipulation is that the DATA is not to be released publicly or discussed for the time being. I will release publicly down the road the data and either amend the original post or start a new thread. I would have liked to setup a *patreon* sort of model following the *bonus content* of thou who shall not be named but I don't think there is a GoFundMe option to provide that for donors. If there is someone please let me know. I of course will share the data with Tom A, JeffP, and Jens, RRuff and others who are publishing data for the good off all and to support their efforts.

For that still want to donate they can do so at: https://www.gofundme.com/findfaster

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Almost 3300 people have checked out this thread so far, you just wonder what kind of neat stuff we'd learn if everybody threw in a buck.

Hey Thomas - I was the first to donate I believe and am also as bewildered as you that folks can't throw you at least a few bucks.

I have jet+ wheels, so not really interested in the data for the enve wheels other than which wheels tested faster overall and by how much? Can you send me a PM with that info?

Thx

Sean H I appreciate you donation and it shows in your growth in the sport with regard to your attention to detail. I am small potatoes, but I work hard and you remind me a lot of myself in the search of info. It amazes how many people messaged prior to testing about tires referencing rollers tests from magazines and why we were testing the tires we were testing. Frankly they didn't know anything about the tires. I had to politely explain that clearly the test was paid for a by a manufacturer that wanted to test tires against some of conti's slower tires not faster tires, for good reason.

It continues to amaze me that people don't understand the simple line, "if you are not paying for the product, you are the product".

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I'd encourage you to try this model again at some point in the future. My only critique is that there is an upper limit on what you can test... basically just wheels, tires, and frames. The rest of it ends up being pretty personal.

Just thinking out loud here but, iirc, you're hooked up to a computrainer at A2. If you had a crank-based power meter, I wonder if there's any way to tease out the "watts-to spin" effect of a disc vs a 90mm rear vs maybe even something like a HED 3 rear. Wind speed is 30mph so maybe get into 52x12 and see what sort of wattage you'd need to hold 30mph at the wheel... you'd need something more sophisticated than that as you're trying to tease out a small difference and the difference is likely much smaller than the speed range a human would have but I think you get the idea of what I'm driving at.

Maybe Geoff could set something up where the real time aero watts plus an offset for crr gets sent to the computrainer which would be set up in erg mode. You could look at the difference between the power reading at the computrainer and the power at your crank-based power meter. There will be a difference between the two naturally due to drivetrain losses but the difference should, in theory, change between a disc and a deep rear wheel.

As you personally know this was cobbled together last minute as I wanted to piggy back on the tunnel being open. I was under the false impression that they wouldn't just do testing for a couple of hours and you needed to book the entire day. Had I known that wasn't the case I would have gone up like originally planned in June in conjunction with travel to Eagleman 70.3 and Raleigh 70.3. I would like to do something more planned in the future. This was a good start to understand the process, but having some insider knowledge to Brian/Heath/Kiley, I think people really underestimate the personal time commitment people made to the process. I thank you for your support. Hopefully you got the cleats and post back alright. Thanks for those :)

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Had my race this past Sunday using the Dash Cycle Gretchen disc and the Corsa Speed tire. I went tubeless. No issues with the tire of choice or the wheel. I'm sold on this tire and tubeless for racing. Currently I'm building a new front wheel using the AForce AI33 rim and going tubeless up front as well.

Sweet, thanks for following up!

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

Oops. Wrong thread.

Why not test the tires HED recommends for their plus rims. The Conti attack 22mm?

A lot of this was laid out in the pre-test post to help people understand why these equipment choices. The reason why is we wanted to find the fastest setup. Given how slow the Attack rolls it is not likely to be the fastest setup.

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I find it puzzling why a company that prizes performance and aerodynamics so highly would chose a tire that performs so poorly? Im not being sarcastic, I truly wonder.
I have HED plus 9's and erred on the side of what they recommended.

...and here is Tom's combined data on that tire on a Flo9. https://bikeblather.blogspot.com/...ng-caught-up-ii.html

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Jim Verheul
JBV Coaching.com

so its right there behind the 4000 on a roller test and if it mates aerodynamically as well as HED says it does with their rims it seems it could be a fast setup on a plus rim?

I'm guessing but it probably tests well in the tunnel where you aren't looking at rolling resistance

TG I'm replying to you but hopefully TomA will chime in as this question is really meant for him: are we being fair to the 22mm Attack by testing it at the same pressure as 23mm and 25mm tires? On the rollers there's a linear reduction in crr with pressure but wouldn't it be more appropriate to classify that as a reduction in crr due to casing tension? E.g. when comparing a 23mm GP 4000S to a 25mm GP 4000S at the same pressure, isn't that the equivalent of running a 23mm tire at a 15% higher psi? What I'm trying to say is, different width tires will have different "break point" air pressures out on the road so shouldn't we be adjusting accordingly when roller testing for crr?

I guess the wrench in this theory is the 20mm SS.

Ideally yes in a perfect world. The hard part is that break-even point is going to vary based on road surface condition, rider weight, and other factors. I can sympathize with Tom A and others in that it is nearly impossible to make recommendations for everyone. The reality is we are already splitting hairs to begin with and the idea, at least in my eyes, is to empower people with enough data that they can decide what is optimal for them specifically.

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Right and the 4000 is a long long way from the Corsa Speed, Supersonic, and TT in terms of rolling. It is 4 watts just for a single tire (at 40kph). So the tire has to be 4 watts faster on the rim to get to equal with some of the better rolling tires. Most companies that want to show good aero data are going to go with tires that show good aero and narrower tires have shown to be faster. My guess is the HED would perform even better with a 20mm Supersonic but it is out of spec in terms of sizing on their rims so they don't. But this only takes into account aero. RR is a huge component of drag.

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Yes. All of our wheels are tubeless capable.

Hope that helps,

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

Does "all" mean the older styles as well or just the newer versions of the flo?

"All" means any of our new or old wheels can be set up with tubeless tires and the proper tubeless kit.

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

Sorry, just so this is clear, what is the "proper tubeless kit"?

I'm still enjoying my *first* batch flo 60s - they have probably 50,000+ kms on them. Still good!

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Just your standard Silca or Stan's tubeless conversion kit. Both companies make great solutions.

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Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

Here is an example of a Enve tubeless kit. This is the stock one that comes with the Enve 7.8 SES. I am surprised at $15 nobody has scooped it up yet.

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Hehe. I just snagged it. Thanks for that!

I couldn't find an answer to this on your blog or either of your threads about this test. But why did you choose 25mm for the Continental GP TT rather than 23mm? I'm guessing the extra width is the reason it lagged behind the other 3 tires which were all 23's.

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Matt

The main reason we did this was because there simply wasn't a Supersonic available in 25mm otherwise we would have used that. The goal was kind of to try to find what was likely going to be the fastest combination in conjunction with roller data and some of the aero data that Flo put out there. While the 25mm isn't a Supersonic it is pretty close to what it would have been had they made one and the wider tire performed worse from an aerodynamic perspective on both the HED and Enve, although Jim has said they got a 25mm to perform well but the specifics I don't think were ever released.

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Gotcha. The goal of the two was compare different widths since the TT and SS are pretty much the same tire (with the TT having better flat resistance). That way you could see if the aero difference is enough to recommend the better rolling resistance of a wider tire. Thanks

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Matt

Thanks for sharing the info on the Hed. Have you released your work on the Enve yet?

I need to really do it as I have it like 50% completed. Truthfully, I really got kind of side tracked this year with dealing with my own health issues with my inner ear and dropped the ball on a lot of other side projects. I am currently in Kona with limited tech but I'll see what I can cajole together. My plan was to release it after a year to those who didn't help fund the campaign and reward the donors, but we are well past a year now as that was April 2017.

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