List of 650C wheels I use:
HED Wheels: Jet 60, Jet 90, H3, Jet Disc (Special order, I will receive this Wednesday). I know they don't make the 90 any more

I like the Alex DA28 for a training rim. In fact I like just about every 650C Alex rim I've had.

Bikes
Felt DA (not sure if they make it any more)
Cervelo NP2, I have the older P2 as well. If I could afford it I'd have bought a P5 45cm
While the 45 is smaller than the older 48, it's easy to make bigger and I don't have a tire overlap problem with it. I can say the only thing I don't like about the 45 NP2 is the front end doesn't have enough trail. I calculate 61mm but I handles like it's well below 60.

Planet X Stealth which has a road bike front end geometry. I've built it as a road bike to replace my CAAD5

thank you. i guess there's only one person who knows the answer to this. SAD! (as trump would say.)

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I forgot tires.

You most likely have the GP4000SII and the Michelin PR4 but I also use the Schwalbe One in a 650X23. I really like that tire and may race on it this season.

650c Tires:

* Continental Competition Tubular
* Continental Gatorskin
* Continenal Grand Prix 4000 SII
* Continental Sprinter Tubular
* Kenda K925 Kaliente
* Schwalbe One HS462A
* Tufo Jet Special
* Tufo S3
* Vittoria Corsa EVO CX Tubular
* Vittoria Juniores Tubular
* Vittoria Open Corsa EVO CX III
* Vittoria Rubino III
* Vittoria's Rubino Pro G+

650c Inner Tubes:

* Continental Race 26
* Continental Race Light
* Continental Race Supersonic
* Kenda
* Michelin A1/B1 Aircomp

650c Wheels:

* ENVE SES 650c
* HED Ardennes SL
* HED Jet 6
* Velocity A23
* Zipp 404 Firecrest

thank you!

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan it's not a tri bike but I make culprit Junior bikes 650c and our junior two can be custom painted. Aero alloy frame with carbon dual offset post.

Not sure if it fits your bill but it is an option.

https://culpritbicycles.com/...ucts/2016-junior-two

Trek
Felt
Ridley
Zipp
Hed
Gatorskins

QR Dulce looks like it still has a 650c option on the XS.

I am so glad you posted! You even have a bumble bee yellow road bike that matches my car ;-) However, I am having trouble using you color selector to actually see what the bike would look like. Please advise. I am seriously interested in purchasing, as I am what you call in your website, a "little rider"!

---

DFL > DNF > DNS

Thank you for taking care of the little riders too!

---

DFL > DNF > DNS

thank you. but as far as i know the only 650c bike trek makes is an emonda marketed to kids. felt? if you can be a little more granular on your answer i would be in your debt.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

While I haven't ridden one, Orbea makes the Ordu in a 650

Cervelo P5 - 2015 48 uses 650's, but their 2016 and newer versions they changed the 48 to 700's. You can still get a Cervelo P5 size 45 in 650's.

Would be interested in your thoughts that if most riders 5'5" or under on 650's should also be on shorter cranks.

Thanks for your article. My 650 P5 is the first tri bike that I can easily get my leg over :)

"Would be interested in your thoughts that if most riders 5'5" or under on 650's should also be on shorter cranks."

if you're riding a bike with 650c wheels because you NEED to, then you should probably be on 160mm or 155mm cranks. which means cobb, rotor, infocrank, most likely.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

A bit more legible presentation of the data...

thanks. i'm using yours. i just patched mine together using two graphs i created over time, contemporaneously.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"While I haven't ridden one, Orbea makes the Ordu in a 650"

which model?

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

lightning makes a 160:

http://www.lightningbikes.com/cranks/index.html


Bonus is you can change from compact to 130 bcd.


Corima still makes 650:


http://store.corima.com/carbon-bicycle-wheelset.html?diametre=4


Cheers,

I have a felt da and b12 650c you can still get them but rare

I think Planet X still do the pro stealth in 650

I have 160 cranks ultegra and dura ace

Hope that helps

Also what about blue that Emma pooled is riding?

Dan,

Has a factor in the riding of 650c bikes also not been the issues surrounding gearing?

1) You shorten the cranks substantially therefore to to maintain the same pedal force as longer cranks one needs to reduce size of chainring

2) Yet the loss in wheel circumference demands an increase in chainring size if the desire is to maintain same rpm at same speed (which can be a function of physiology and fitness)

A solution IMHO might be if SRAM did an XD cassette with a road like spread e.g. 10-26

Interested in your thoughts....

David

---

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

At least these

https://www.orbea.com/...ycles/ordu-m10i-team
https://www.orbea.com/...cycles/ordu-m20-team

But not this one
https://www.orbea.com/...n/bicycles/ordu-m20i

Trek made the 1st generation Speed Concept in an XS that utilized 650 wheels (my wife rides one), but sadly they don't offer an XS or anything with 650 wheels in the generation 2 Speed Concept.

---

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

that bike is a custom bike. yes, obviously it's available. i'm talking about production tri bikes right now, and the parts that go on them. it seems to me they've all dried up but the 45cm P series bikes.

if that is the case, fine, but then that's the bike that 1 in 8 triathletes should be buying. what i mean is that this particular sku (well, the P2 and P3 in all their builds), in size-45cm, should make up 1 out of every 8 tri bike purchases in the U.S. today.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"At least these

https://www.orbea.com/...ycles/ordu-m10i-team
https://www.orbea.com/...cycles/ordu-m20-team

unless it says right there 650 wheel or 26" wheel the very first thing i look at is the chain stay on the geometry chart. the chain stay will always be shorter on the 650c bike.

on these bikes its 405mm straight across, all sizes. if the smallest size in this bike is 650c, this will be the first time in history (that i know of) that the 650c bike has the same chain stay as its 700c cousins. are you suuuuure?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Has a factor in the riding of 650c bikes also not been the issues surrounding gearing?"

we have more gear options available to us now than we did in, say, 1993, when most of the fastest bike splits in kona were ridden on 650c bike both in the mens and the womens races.

how fast do you want to be going when you're still pedaling? 40mph? okay. that's a pretty big gear. but that's no problem on a 650c bike.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

These have been covered, but I ride the Felt DA (2012), on Zipp Firecrest wheels, GP4000S tires, in 650c. I checked the Felt site, and this frameset is still available in that size (47cm, 650c wheels).

I haven't seen them in person but I have seen them on ebay.

I assumed those models are 650's because of the Bottom Bracket drop as well as the stack.

It is possible that they just moved the bottom bracket up but the head tube length suggests a 650 wheel as well

"I assumed those models are 650's because of the Bottom Bracket drop"

well okay, you have a point there don't you, you smarty pants you. that's the other geometric tell. i'll inquire and see. thanks for pointing that out. i was just on the phone to them yesterday, so this will be one of my follow up questions.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Look at the BB height, it goes up with the reduced drop rather than dropping.

BB went up to reduce stack, not for ground clearance with little wheels

Cannondale Slice 44cm womens 2016 women's model has 650c Vision tech rims/wheels. Found on e-bay.

i guess what i'm looking for is what is sold TODAY. i have a personal knowledge of some 650c products sold throughout history ;-)

i'd like to know what's offered NOW, so that if someone asks i can tell them what's currently for sale. thanks.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I started a thread with the same intention a little while back:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...0travis%20r#p6202120

---

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

bravo! i'll add that.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

To add to your data - from this graph, about one in ten males is 5'5 or under.

While I don't expect manufacturers to build for the margins, this number adds to the half of women who are not being catered for on appropriate tri frames.

---

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

Although Cervelo may still list the 45cm, they no longer manufacturer it. Me and SallyShortyPants bought up some of the remaining 45cm frames on the market. Ditto for Trek and Giant. Last time I looked they listed 650 bikes but when contacted, confirmed they do not manufacture them.

Felt still produces 650 in the B series. Quintana Roo lists the 650 for a couple of models. I don't know if they are being produced.

As far as road bikes go, there are "junior" bikes by Specialized, Argon and Felt. However, gearing is limited to less than 10x2, and they are aluminum frames with carbon forks.

Also, on the list of wheels, add Renn disc. As far as I can tell, it is the only structural 650 disc available in clincher.

---

No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

650 latex tubes

https://www.ginkgo-veloteile.de/...-Inner-Tube-571.html

They are 700c tubes that were modified.

New Cannondale Slice 44cm women's model with 650 x 23c wheels selling at Nytro and TriSports today.

Please PM or email me at service@culpritbicycles.com

We use our croz blade color selector for frameset as a reference for custom colors.

Hope to hear from you.

Joshua

Too hard to add pics in FB comments on main page article so I'll respond here. Your comments quoted.

The Gender split for our HIM national champs for the last 18 years has averaged 32% ladies.
At IMNZ this year 28.7% of Kiwis entered were missing a Y chromosome


Is 5'5 still the cutoff? It is now possible to get 700C wheeled bikes that match the X dimensions of the previous generation 650C bikes.


Once again we have the crowdsourced data.
The red line is the minimum PXY range possible on a 48cm Cervelo P3/2 MKII using original vision clipons and FSA SL-K -20 or Syntace Flatforce stem. Pushing the limits of what can be done with 700c wheels.
From that we derive our zones.

Blue shaded area is the 'must use 650'
Orange (or yellowish depending on your display) is 'should use, or at least seriously consider, 650'

4.44% of respondents are in the must use zone.
It's worth noting that Tri3 at 155cm (5'1) and PXY 416/533 is in the should zone. And I definitely think that she has made the right choice for handling and sizing. But it wasn't compulsory for PXY, might have been for seatpost extension.

With the new gen small 700c bikes and the easier availability of shorter crank lengths (I used to use Stronglight Junior or cut down cranks) to mitigate the stack difference between 650 and 700 the must line has definitely shifted from where it was a decade ago.

From the 1988 Ansur data


This is where your statement about the proportion of riders needing 650 gets major backing. If, as a reasonable adjustment for the new bikes, the threshold is 5'3 = 1600mm. 18.9% of tri bike sales should be 650. Interestingly, if we move the threshold to 1550mm, we get only 5.3% of riders needing 650, which agrees much more closely with the proportion behind the red line in the ST PXY data.


About the only way a petite rider ends up with 650C in my country is if they see me. Because I strongly agree with you that the industry is failing a large chunk of riders.

As a few people have referenced - the problem with Cervelo is that they only make bikes if distributors order them. So if the distributor doesn't think they can sell through MOQ in a reasonable timeframe you won't see certain bikes every year. Track bikes have been a great example of this. As have 650 wheeled tri bikes which only seem to roll out every two years.

Very nice.


Reminds me of this 650c vs 700c article I wrote a few years ago:

https://web.archive.org/...aller-cyclists-.html

It includes this graph, which might be from the same data:

---

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

Very interesting read. I love the JND part, not because of the vibrations I can regulate with inflate pressure, but of the rw tire grip I lost with 100psi on a rail road last summer. The article is a complete help for a part of my job!

---

*
___/\___/\___/\___ the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>

Great article, Damon. I had not seen that before. I'll add one more reason for 650 bikes: stand over height. Those couple of centimeters difference between 700 and 650 are very important for us shorties.

---

No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

i'm not saying that you CAN'T fit on a bike with 700c wheels if you're 5'2". i'm saying you shouldn't have to be forced into it. for example, let's take specialized, who in general is a very good maker of very good women's bikes:

1. find me any specialized with a front/center less than 57.5cm, any size for any gender.
2. do you think front/center has any impact on how a bike handles?
3. can you tell me the reason why a woman should be limited to 57.5cm of front/center?
4. if a 69° or 70° head angle on a road or tri bike is appropriate, then why don't we just scale that bike up?

in other words, what if, instead of starting with a 55cm bike and scaling it up and down, we started with the 44cm bike and just scaled it up? everybody gets to ride 70° head angles on their road bikes. no? you don't like that idea? you won't sell any bikes to men if you do that? because the bikes will handle like crap? so the shoe is on the other foot now!

here's the flip side to the "availability" thing. you can't get stuff in 650! okay. not true, but okay. let's stipulate to that. the other side of it is that the available aerobars and stems - and the available bikes where the distance from the armrests forward to the pursuits - gets pretty slim and skinny if you make that small rider sit aboard a bike with 700c. here's a 700c-wheel bike you can ride, dearie! (but with this aerobar only.) don't like that aerobar? not comfortable? don't complain. you're a girl. what do you know anyway?

which leads us to the larger question of what it is that would really make a difference in women's access to sport. (a debate in which i would be happy to wade right into.)

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

those numbers are from the kona survey. when i started this, in 1992 (and until i gave it up after 2006 or 2007) we used to track seat angle and wheelsize. it's hard to track. both of those metrics. you have to have an eye for it. you have to really know bikes to track seat angle, but i digress.

those numbers you have are from the two charts i had on my surveys way, way back in the day, which are below side by side.



most people have no idea how prevalent 650 was. now, certainly, threadless headsets dropped the front end. then integrated headsets dropped it further. then carbon bikes dropped it further (remember the 47cm airfoil pro, with a head tube, top to bottom, of 73mm i think it was?).

all that lowered heights. pad heights. then we started getting lower profile aerobars, which lowered them further. that meant you could ride a 700c bike down to 48cm pretty easily. you could have a 65cm saddle height, 8cm of armrest elevation drop from the saddle, and somehow squeeze aboard a bike with 700c wheels.

but there remained two issues. first, the 700c wheel didn't get any thinner front to back. you could get the bike lower, yes, but you couldn't get it narrower. yes, you could pull the armrests back, but unless you also pulled the pursuit bars back you had an unfortunately long distance from the saddle to the pursuits.

secondly, armrest elevations went right back up again. the best aerobar out there is profile design, j4 bracket, f35 armrest. nothing touches this. the only bars that might be close are zipp and 3t, but they also have about 60mm of pad height between the bar bore and the pad top (unless you configure the zipp undermount, which gives you a spatial problem between the pads and extensions (because there is no extension built specifically for undermount).

so, what you have are a bunch of workarounds. asterisks. a 5'2" woman doesn't need a 650c bike because she can ride a 700c bike fine, assuming asterisk, asterisk, asterisk.

we have, basically, still, a male-oriented (if not chauvenistic, or even misogynistic) approach to product design in the bike industry. and every time a manufacturer tries to do something about it it gets spanked at retail and we shrink back. and those who are in charge of gender equity are distracted by the shiny object that is easy to understand, leaving no room for the discussion on how to actually make products (bikes, saddles, apparel) that a woman would want to ride. (how many decades did it take to get us short reach brake levers?)

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Yep, those charts are the source of the data. Thanks again for all the work you did gathering the numbers.

So how do we get products designed for smaller riders to succeed in the market?

---

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

"So how do we get products designed for smaller riders to succeed in the market?"

before i get to that! one more thing. when you write about the aerodynamics of 650c (when anyone writes about it) there is a pretty big element people tend to leave out. every time i went to the wind tunnel - every time! - to see wheels tested, the same hub, same spoke count, was used on all the wheels. why? because HED (as an example) made a "wheel". a rim. and a hub. and the hub had 80mm of flange width, c:c, and 24 holes or however many.

and i would say wait! same hub, same rim, that's not equity. wheels of different sizes of the same strength, that is equity!

so finally we had HED make us wheels, 90mm front and rear (because, as you note, less steering torque because less wheel, less surface area). we had these built on special hubs, 60mm flange width. 16 spokes in the front, 20 in the rear. the men rode our bikes too. at various times we had wolfgang dittrich, jimmy riccitello, jürgen zäck, ryan bolton, spencer smith, kenny glah, scott tinley, scott molina, ray browning, and a bunch i'm forgetting, all on 650c wheels.

we augmented this by building a fork with greater spacing between the blades, like the old wynn fork that tested so well. we had a river of space between this (narrower) wheel and the blades.

anyway, that's something that bugs me, i guess, that the industry has had only enough imagination to copy what we did back in the late 80s and early 90s, but not to really understand and optimize it.

how do we build better bikes? that will sell? i think we have advantages now we didn't have in the early 90s, when i was flogging this at QR and you were flogging it at kestrel (and eventually at cervelo). we have a much better pathway to get our narrative to the consumer. could you imagine, in 1993, a successful consumer direct bike brand? remember the attempts? why can that model work now? we have better pathways to purchase. informational pathways.

and i think this has caused an urgency at B&M. now the LBS doesn't have the luxury to remain imperious, retro, ignorant, chauvenistic. now it's got to hustle. why have 1,500 of these guys come through our fit workshops? because they know they have to hustle now. they have to be better, better informed, nuanced, educated.

further - and i might be wrong about this - i think women are less likely now to passively accept the counsel of men, whether those men are coaches, husbands or the person at the LBS. back then women thought a 650c wheel was demeaning to them. they wanted the big wheel, like the men had. i think the market is sophisticated enough to respond, "do you also want to wear pants that the men wear, that are 6 sizes too big for you?"

and finally, the market has been strangled for 650c frames, but the 650c infrastructure is still there. i didn't have that luxury in 1988, but cannondale (as an example) has it now. hopefully all the people who worked at cannondale during the era of this bike are gone...



so the institutional memory of its eventual market failure won't be remembered, and cannondale will give it another try ;-)

imagine if somebody comes out the gate with a strong 650c narrative and product offering. if it's really true that no one is making 650c production frames right now (road or tri) this might be the very time to do it.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Is the frame reach on the Culprit 2 really 424, I would expect that to be nearer 390ish? Or is that to the shifters on the bars?

The front/center doesn't really match that frame reach

Yes it's correct. Been selling for years. This is the first time I have been asked this.

http://www.planetx.co.uk/...olds-solitude-wheels

That Cannondale R800si is the road bike i'm currently using...except mine is white

That's because your customers haven't known to ask.
I'd always assumed that the 424 was indicative a design mistake, but I just ran the XY calcs and the frame reach is ~363. So the design is fine and the geo chart is where the mistake lies.

Sorry, I don't understand...is 424 the reach for just the frame or to the bars?

I like to think of this as not just a women's problem, but a smaller person's problem. At some point, we all fit a 650 bike. Some of us kept growing, while others finished there. So, in a way, there is a market opportunity here for manufacturers to put more kids on quality, good-fitting, good handling bikes. Would a better quality bike help kids stay with cycling? I don't know. It could be a very challenging market, but I think it's worth considering. We need to keep working on the people that will be riding bikes 10-30 years from now.

Same goes for the MTB market: All the development now is going into the 27.5 and 29ers. The 26ers, while they were the standard just a few years ago, are all but drying up in manufacturer development cycles. Many have gone the route of splitting the geometry range for a given model to 27.5 and 29, but why not give us a model that has two 26", two 27.5", and two 29" geometries or something to that effect to really cover a nice range of people.

---

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

Looking at the monstrous size and weight of current mountain bikes, they are literally so clunky that I can't imagine buying one. They look too heavy to lift on top of a car, much less maneuver around on anything but a downhill course. A 26" option would be a welcome addition, at least for this rider.

---

DFL > DNF > DNS

There are quite a few manufacturers focusing on light kids 24" MTBs now. Some, like trailcraft, only do that. The industry still hasn't figured riders under 165cm, the first attempt at a response was WSD - most of which are woeful. Now we're getting more attention on Kids bikes. Instead of a consistent progression in sizing and designing each size to suit the rider (crank length, stiffness, weight etc).

For the moment, I simply can't find a nice MTB for my 5' ladies to ride. Even among the small run steel builders.

Specializeds WS marketing has been terribly harmful to the cause of helping women (and the men who typically are advising them) understand the need for 650. Plus they make the Alias to force women into the badlands of a halfway between road and tri position.

As proof that I believe in front centres less than 575. This is the smallest frame I've commissioned. FC of 519. XY 333,482. The rider is 4'10.



I really wish there was a manufacturer that had the guts to make a bike like that.

Given that I get to have meetings with bike brand PMs, I ask if they'd consider making a 650c road bike. The answer so far has always been no. As I'm sure you've experienced. I'm going to keep working to find a brand that is prepared to produce a truly progressive and proportional range of bikes.

I'm not saying the that threshold for 650 is lower because it should be. Just that it can be, probably needs to be until such time as the level of market awareness improves.

Road bikes are actually more of a problem than Tri. The Threshold needs to be higher for road if you really care about handling and performance.

If the threshold is 5'5 (1650mm) 5% of men and 63% of women should be on 650.


Except the J4/F35 combo doesn't go narrow enough for most small riders to get a decent elbow width. I can at least state that aerobar options are going to get much better in the near future. Bikes will take a little longer.
On the bright side, Dolan are about to launch a 650 carbon road bike, the first new one on the market in some time. http://www.dolan-bikes.com/...himano-105-5800.html
However, it has carried over the 70deg HTA and hasn't been designed for correct crank length. But at least it's an indication that at least one brand is thinking of how to best serve riders.

Not specifically to you but to everyone on general...

I wouldn't mind a 700C road bike if they made one like my F5 with the bottom bracket an inch higher

I guess we'd better take good care of my wife's XS first generation Speed Concept. At 5'0" it was the best fit for her of any of the 650C wheeled tri bikes at the time.

Initially with the Gen 2 they offered a XS WSD, but only in the pricey 9 series. It's surprising to me that having invested in the mold they would discontinue it but I guess for a big manufacturer like Trek they have minimum sales goals they need to meet to maintain a model. In fact given how few models they now offer for the SC it seems they are either looking towards a new model or have decided not to maintain an aggressive presence in the tri space despite having one of the best offerings.

It's definitely discouraging to see the disappearance of 650C tri bikes.

"It's surprising to me that having invested in the mold they would discontinue it"

the problem is that nobody in the industry listens to the smartest people in the room, and by "nobody" i mean bike company decision makers and bike resellers.

the smartest people in the room are the engineers, typically. carl maston, jeff andrews, damon rinard, jeff soucek, anton petrov, nathan barry, murray washburn, chris you, mark cote and on and on.

i don't know what they would all say about 650 for the smaller sizes and i know that mark cote would argue for 700. but i don't know if mark would be arguing that we because he feels that way or because brand has staked out that position (which has been the correct position, in terms of the market).

what i am comfortable believing is that if the market took a hard turn in the direction of 650 specialized would rethink their current way of making women's bikes.

i do know this: those who make 650 are going to need to speak directly past the retailers, and appeal to the consumers, and probably sell directly to the consumers. retailers have in this case unfortunately been a stop sign to 650. if canyon or diamondback starts making 650 for women i think that's going to be interesting.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

When they go to go down to the nearest bike store for tyres and tubes they're going to have staff who are unable to sell them the things they need to keep their bike serviceable.

People who own 650c in 2017 (and 2018 and beyond) are going to have to be quite comfortable with ordering off Wiggle.

---

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

you have to start (or restart) somewhere.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

My LBS (three within 30 minute drive) rarely have in stock what I'm looking for anyway. Ordering off the internet for tires and tubes is the least of the issues when it comes to 650.

---

No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

Great response! I'm not in the office this week but in time I want to get this line of thought to the right people here.

---

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)

"I really wish there was a manufacturer that had the guts to make a bike like that."

we have the CPSC in the U.S., it's our analog to CE and every country has this. the rule is this: the distance from the pedal axle center to any place on the front tire in the shortest-distance-configuration cannot be less than 9cm. this is for production bikes.

now, there are several issues with this. first, the rule doesn't scale, which is a problem, but that's what it is. second, you have the freedom, or lack of it, to use a shorter crank in spec. i can't see anything in the rule that requires the spec to be 170mm. however, let's say you're specialized and you just can't imagine delaying a bike because your arcane need of 165mm or shorter cranks is held up at the factory. so you put 170s on the darned thing to get it out the door. if you anticipate this, then you design your frame accordingly.

but i think we should be past all that now. it's clearly possible to make the FC 30mm shorter just by a change to 650c and a shortening of the cranks to 165, no? anybody think my math is off? that ought to take what seems to me to be specialized's firm stop sign and lower it to 545mm.

about the steeper seat angles in the smaller bikes, there is one legitimate reason for this: saddles don't scale. therefore, i see the value in normalizing for that. but i think most of the 75 and 76 degree thing has to do with playing to the old notion of top tube as an indicator of frame length. it's cynical and trades on ignorance.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Don't get me started on the goofy MTB industry "wheel size ADHD" :-/

The main reason you aren't going to be seeing MTBs in multiple wheel sizes as you would like is that they don't understand that wheel size is really just a "fit tool". They still think they have some sort of magic performance properties...

BTW, 650B should really be called 27", not 27.5"...the diameter is LESS than 1" larger than a 26" wheel. And, on that note, it really should be able to accommodate smaller riders with the 650B wheels alone. The "working radius" is only 12mm larger.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Dan, I think the decline of 650c wheel in bikes are a due to road bike designs. In my experience, triathlon bike shops are still primarily road bike shops. A large number of triathletes also ride road bikes.

In recent years, most large manufacturers have eliminated 650c wheeled road bikes from their line up. Most bike shops I know sell far more road bikes than tri-bikes. As a result, 650c tri-bikes are being affected, too. Is it possible to effectively sell 650c tri-bikes without the presence of 650c road bikes? I think it's difficult. It is interesting how these big brand manufactures still make junior bike (usually aluminum) with 650c wheels though.

btw, I am pretty sure the Orbea Ordu XS runs 700c wheels The short BB drop is there to reduce stack height without compromising head tube stiffness. See pic i grabbed from IBB multisport here

Only missed the EN 14781 89mm rule by a little bit. Felt safe in doing so as I factored small feet (that lack of scaling in the rule you mention)


I therefore wouldn't expect anyone to make exactly that geo. But a 650 designed for max crank length of 150mm can have much shorter FC than what we've currently got.
165mm cranks are way too long when you're tracking min knee angle and closed hip angle on riders this size. Again the industry is terrible at proportionality - the company that can most afford to run different sized SKUs (Shimano) doesn't make small volume hoods or decent crank length options.

The STA trading on ignorance thing really gets to me. All my small riders have to ride the saddle pushed all the way back.

I don't think these two got listed: Pro-lite makes 2 650C wheels - Bracciano 650C and Garda 650C - and Rolf Prima make the Elan which is available in 650C. I know you probably won't want to go there, but there are a few 'Chinese carbon' options for 650C wheels/rims. I still have my 650C Cervelo RS, but I am curious what it would be replaced with should it ever require a warranty replacement. (My QR private reserve kilo suffered a head tube crack.)

Toe overlap has come up, but no-one has chimed in for those of us who ride mid-foot. What is bearable toe overlap on a 700C roadbike is a nightmare when riding in a midfoot position and resulted in switching back to flat pedals. (No way I could navigate in and out of cars to get to the front at traffic lights with clipless pedals.) And IRO Shimano it is quite sad that in not offering cranks below 165 mm, they are failing half their own domestic market (average height of Japanese women - Japanese corporate structure no doubt plays a part.)

Mavic still makes the 650c Open Pro Clincher Rim

I distinctly recall Rinny raced Kona on a custom, one-off SRAM road cassette with a 10t small cog. I think that bike was even sold in the ST Classifieds.

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

Forgot to add Velocity to my original list. Velocity A23, Deep V, and Fusion rims are available in 650c. Also, Velocity A23 and Fusion 650c wheelsets are available today.

Lynsky

Here is the one that they/I did for my wife....

The Crazy Pink Chick Bike with Flowers (and a too short head-tube)

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ink%20chick#p1611516

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Checkout http://www.iotexpert.com

Did you ever find out if the Orbea Ordu is a 650C or 700C bike?

I know I'm late for the party, sorry - but citec still makes and sells 26" wheels and wheelsets.
They used to make discs, too. Not sure if they still cater for the 26" market though.

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___________________


...compensating my lack of fitness with inadequate strength and endurance...

And then there's a whole slough of custom builders that'll do 650's as needed.

I've built roadies for shorter folks using 650's, and a few for myself (tri bike, climbing specific road bike) using the same.

And Panaracer makes the Pasela tire in a 650x25 (though I've only found it in wire bead).

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Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

https://triomultisport.com/
http://www.mjolnircycles.com/

Liv does that weird thing where the small tri bike has 650c in the front and 700 in the back.

Well, as best I can tell, it looks as though Continental has ceased production of the GP 2000 tire and the race lite butyl inner tube in 650, and that Vittoria is no longer producing the Open Corsa Cx in 650. I can't find either of these tires listed in 650 on their websites.

That's bad news for 650 users--those were both good tires.

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No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

That's awful news.

Are there any good tyres left in 650?

EDIT: For some reason I thought that you'd specified the 4000s2. Both Continental and Wiggle are showing the 650x23 as available and in stock. Might buy a few in case they discontinue them.

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

My company makes bikes with 650 wheels.

In fact, I have a couple in stock.

Can you link me to your bikes?

jaretj

what is you r company? any more info on 650 bikes?

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No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

@slowman: Thanks for doing this research! I still have the QR SE you sold to me on one of the USTS road shows (back in your QRMAN days...) and I'm finding fewer 650 tires around. Where is the page you created with the info? I can't seem to find it..

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I used to have a signature...

Angel Rodriguez sells a lot of 650c tires, apparently, and has them in even 650cx28.

https://www.rodbikes.com/...650c-tires-and-tubes

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Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

https://triomultisport.com/
http://www.mjolnircycles.com/

Most handcycles use 650c tires, and you can also find a large selection of 650c tires & tubes here: https://bike-on.com/...cles/handcycle-parts

Excuse the resurrection, but this is one of the most comprehensive recent threads on 650c.

Question of the day: Where have the 650c wheels gone? Even the people who were manufacturing them at the beginning of the year appear to have stopped.

HED: Ardennes, but no Jets (although you can still get them through other vendors such as MyBikeShop for now)
Enve: nothing on their website (you can get them built from other websites, but nothing direct from Enve)
PlanetX: nothing on their website

Are we expecting a rash of new 650c options in the new year (ha!), or is the final death knell that says we ride the stock wheels, Chinese non-brands, or Zipp 404's - and nothing else?

I did ping the nice folks at Flo to ask if they had any intention of ever turning out a 650c, and the answer was - unsurprisingly - no. If they'd make a 60/60 or a 60/90 combo, I'd buy them in a heartbeat. But I alone do not a market make.

I'm almost at the point where it makes more sense to upgrade my tri bike to something with 700c so that if I'm going to invest that kind of money I can at least buy a set of wheels I could use on either my tri or road bike, and that's a damn shame.

I will be inspecting our new 650 wheels on my trip to Taiwan January 8th. We will start with a front 88 and 50 and a rear 88 with a disc mid spring 2018. Carbon Clinchers - rim brake.

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

Wow. Looking forward to that!

I know that you are the "father" of 650 frames and would like for your article to educate today's triathlete of the history and advantages of 650 wheels regardless of height.

I have been riding 650 wheels since my first QR in 1989 and eventually used many other production and custom frames including: Zipp, Griffen, Kirk Precision, Land Shark and Titan Flex. Even though I'm 6 foot tall I stayed with 650 mostly due to toe overlap on the front wheel. With a very forward position and 175 cranks plus a size 13 shoe turning was always an issue. My cross and road bikes are 700 so I recently decided to change my Tri bike configuration and had Titan Flex do a 650 front with 700 rear in order to address the toe overlap and still be able to run standard gearing in the rear. I rode the first Vineman (1990) and my first Hawaii several months later with this set up and really like it. Finding wide racing and training tires can be a problem. The only real down fall that I see is carrying 2 tires for long distance races.

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Doug Marocco USAT #1039 I have been doing this sport for a while!

I'll be interested to hear about your trip, Dan. Do you have an idea on what you're expecting them to run pricewise yet?

Georgena Terry told me last week that Schwalbe only sold 500 tires in 650 worldwide in 2015. They and have one tire that is 571x23. At least Vittoria has a couple of 571x23 models.
So tire producers also limit what frame designers may wish for?

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Anne Barnes
ABBikefit, Ltd
FIST/SICI/FIST DOWN DEEP
X/Y Coordinator
abbikefit@gmail.com

I’m not sure what the wheel price will be as a stand alone item. Probably around $699 for the 88 mm’s and $450 for the 50 mm.

They will be standard equipment on the XS Tactical.

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

Any chance of an aluminium rimmed + carbon fairing 650c? Thanks ;-)

Sorry no aluminum - not this round anyway.

I have been considering that for all our wheels but no decision has been made.

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

Just my $0.02 Dan: I'd vote for aluminum box rims with carbon fairings. Your product is a great value proposition. IMO, it would be a better value proposition if you used aluminum/carbon fairing hybrid wheels.

I've owned a lot of wheels... plenty of which were carbon clinchers... and my Hed Jet Blacks are my favorite. The breaking is soooo good. Designed properly there's no weight penalty to a CC either (light straight pull hubs, good bladed spokes, alloy nipples). Perhaps you could get creative with the rear wheels by using an offset rim as the base: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9UUkbsmo-4

Interesting video.

I like aluminum as well.

Our current wheels have angled brake tracks which help a lot with tire/wheel aero numbers. Our front system is a good airfoil with 23 mm tires at 95 psi measured average at 24.83 mm matched with our 25 mm rim.

To do those in aluminum brake tracks and maintain the numbers - just takes a little work. I've been tied up up on the XS frame. But all these wheels (both 650 and 700) are on my list.:-)

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

Another 650c fan in favor of aluminum rims. Just sayin....

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No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

Thanks for taking the time to answer. At least it's not a straight no, but I fully appreciate that from a business point of view, it is probably hard to justify.

I finally pulled the trigger on the bumble bee yellow road bike in Sallyshortypants size! My hope is to break it in at the Womens' Camp next weekend, so do what you can to get to Las Vegas ASAP ;-)

BTW, thanks for posting and making a bike that fits me!

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DFL > DNF > DNS