i'm getting a number of PMs asking for swim help. we've had these threads before. this is another. as with anything (i.e., bike position) nothing helps us diagnose what ails you like a video. to share a video, easiest is to upload your video to youtube, then...
just paste that URL here, the one with the domain youtu.be. it'll automatically express itself as an embedded video in your post.
Id like to get more efficient on my swim stroke, I know I got alot of problems in the stroke, not posted in one of these before, I am doing my first Ironman and I know I can swim the distance but is like to be able to swim it well and not be too gassed after...
I don't yet, won't be able to watch until sometime tonight. I only watched about 10 secs of the video while I was waiting for some reports to run at work.
- about 2:15 in to the video it's slo mo of you swimming. it LOOKS like with your right hand you do what a lot of people do, which is to sharply, abruptly, shift your hand (inward) during the pull. i think it comes from early instruction to swim with an S pattern. i don't know if you do that with the other hand.
i'm happy to hear other folks' views on this, but i say just yank back. let the S pattern or the pulling-still-water thing take care of itself. just make a paddle, from the elbow to the fingertip, and yank straight back.
- second, again i'm willing to hear dissenting views, but it seems to me your head sits a bit high in the water. not quite as bad as a water polo player, but still it looks a little high. this sinks your legs and then you have to kick like a mutherkicker to break the plane of the surface (and probably with too much bend in the knee).
my sense of it is:
1. swim downhill. push your head down in front. 2. add to your drills a hundred yards or so of swimming with a 2-beat kick. if you can't keep your feet on the surface with a 2-beat kick then you have a body position problem.
otherwise it looks okay. i don't want to load you up with stuff. those 2 things. but i'm eager to hear what jason says, who's a better swimmer than i am. Dan Empfield aka Slowman
yours is easy. band the ankles. tie them together. put a pull buoy in there. go. do this for 200yd every workout. when the ankles are unbanded, concentrate on the tops of your feet ALWAYS facing the bottom of the pool. let's talk again after 5 sessions of that. then we'll tackle the next thing. Dan Empfield aka Slowman
- about 2:15 in to the video it's slo mo of you swimming. it LOOKS like with your right hand you do what a lot of people do, which is to sharply, abruptly, shift your hand (inward) during the pull. i think it comes from early instruction to swim with an S pattern. i don't know if you do that with the other hand.
i'm happy to hear other folks' views on this, but i say just yank back. let the S pattern or the pulling-still-water thing take care of itself. just make a paddle, from the elbow to the fingertip, and yank straight back.
- second, again i'm willing to hear dissenting views, but it seems to me your head sits a bit high in the water. not quite as bad as a water polo player, but still it looks a little high. this sinks your legs and then you have to kick like a mutherkicker to break the plane of the surface (and probably with too much bend in the knee).
my sense of it is:
1. swim downhill. push your head down in front. 2. add to your drills a hundred yards or so of swimming with a 2-beat kick. if you can't keep your feet on the surface with a 2-beat kick then you have a body position problem.
otherwise it looks okay. i don't want to load you up with stuff. those 2 things. but i'm eager to hear what jason says, who's a better swimmer than i am.
Yes, his right arm has bad crossover during his pull. Can't see the other arm. The idea is to pull straight back as much as possible, as Dan says. One other possible cause is that it takes less work to pull (and is less effective, of course) by slipping your hand from side to side during the pull.
His hands enter too close to midline in front of his head. Try to enter in front of your shoulder (think entering at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock, and you'll likely be where you want to be.
Kicking has nothing to do with avoiding sinking legs. Period. If you are kicking to keep your legs up, you are doing it wrong. Holding a high head position doesn't cause your legs to drop, either, if you are keeping your legs at the surface by using the correct muscles in the first place.
Go to 1:15 of the below video and check out the waterline that is just above Paltrinieri's goggles. Every one of these swimmers has a high head position: none of them pushes their head down. At 2:15, you'll see Paltrinieri underwater, and his easy 2-beat kick likely where it should be despite a high head.
---------------------------------- "Go yell at an M&M"
yours is easy. band the ankles. tie them together. put a pull buoy in there. go. do this for 200yd every workout. when the ankles are unbanded, concentrate on the tops of your feet ALWAYS facing the bottom of the pool. let's talk again after 5 sessions of that. then we'll tackle the next thing.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Post #18 of 19 ---------------------------------- "Go yell at an M&M"
which part do you disagree with? my main issue with this and many other swimmers is the leg splay that automarically comes with the bend in the hip that's a sure trait of adult onset swimmers. banding the ankles forces the swimmer to confront this, because that bend/twist in the hip will betray itself in a fishtail motion when the ankles are banded (i.e., when the legs can no longer splay). solving that fishtailing requires the swimmer to cease that bending at the waist while breathing.
I've jotted down a few thoughts, but before I begin, a couple of caveats and buyer bewares. I'm a swimmer, been doing it a long time, in all kinds of different conditions. I'm not a coach. Never have been a coach. I've had a lot of different swim coaches over my swimming career, often several different coaches within the same season, and different styles of coaching at different phases in my progression. I believe that there is no single style that works for everyone, but there are certain fundamentals that ALL good swimmers do, and some things that change depending on the swimmer in question. For example, a tall swimmer can and should use a lower stroke rate than a short swimmer.
I'm looking for things that need to be fixed. That doesn't say the how to fix part of the equation, that's up to you and your coach. I can offer suggestions, but not every suggestion will work for everyone, we all learn in different ways and something that clicks for one person may be useless for another.
Lastly, this is for lightheir, because I know he'll read this. Power matters, and more power in the stroke is always good. That's why we train, to generate more power at any given effort level. I will not address power directly in any of this. If you want to increase power, there are other threads that will do that much more effectively.
OK, lets go.
First off, there will be an inherent limitation to anything I say, because the way you are swimming in that video does not look like it is sustainable for 3800m, or 1900m, or 1500m, or even 750m. That looks like a sprint effort to me. The kick is way too big, too much effort is going into it. I'm a kicker when I swim, and I don't think I could sustain anything like that kick for a 400, let alone a full IM swim. So I doubt that you can.
This is Dan's party, but I would prefer to see the middle 100 or 200 of a 1000 TT. I want to see what you look like when fatigue sets in.
Overall, it's not bad. you have good shoulder rotation, you aren't overrotating on the breath, you don't have a dead spot when you pull. That's good stuff, so when you are working on what needs to get fixed, don't wreck those things.
The 2 biggest things I see are dropped legs and dropped elbows. That's what needs to get fixed most. The kick is also way too big, but that's probably because you are sprinting.
Related to the dropped legs, you are bending at the waist, and the head is too high. You also don't get much extension at the front of the stroke from the shoulder. You should get your shoulder up close to your ear at the peak extension. Look at the bottom of the pool. You don't need to see forward in the pool (that's what the stripe on the bottom is for) and you don't need to see forward under the water in an open water swim (all you'll see is bubbles anyway, you lift your head to sight). The water should break on the top of your head, not your forehead. Getting your head down and getting more reach on the front of the stroke will help to get your feet up.
Bending at the waist, you probably have tight hip flexors. Work on getting those loosened up.
dropped elbows, you are entering elbow first, reaching forward, then pulling your elbow back. This causes you to slip a LOT of water. fixing the dropped elbows is like shifting to a bigger gear on a bike, your turnover will probably drop a bit, but you'll gain in distance per stroke.
Make sure the first thing to hit the water is your middle finger, then on the catch get your hand as low as you can before you start coming back with your arm. imagine that you are pulling yourself onto a ledge above your head.
Lastly, the kick is too big, causing a ton of drag. think "tap-dancer" not "place kicker".
I'm sure I can find more, but that's enough for now....
fuzzhead wrote:
Id like to get more efficient on my swim stroke, I know I got alot of problems in the stroke, not posted in one of these before, I am doing my first Ironman and I know I can swim the distance but is like to be able to swim it well and not be too gassed after...
current level indication: -started swimming 2 years ago -swim 3x a week 1 hour with triathlon club (2400 m), 1x half hour lunch swim (1500 m) -did 10x100 scm 2 minute leave interval. finished in 1:35 but really needed the 25 secs to rest
you started swimming 3 years ago? pretty good swimmer if that's the case. what i really like is that your breathing action doesn't torque your body, manifesting itself in your kick. from the waist down things look spot on, at least for an adult onset swimmer. also, your catch is great, your head position is fine. there's not too much to critique.
there is one thing you do, and i'm glad you do it only for the sake of the discussion we're about to have now about it. finis makes not one, but two different paddles designed to keep you from bending at the wrist. you obviously don't own those paddles ;-)
while some disagree with my assessment of this (which is fine, and i'm happy to hear opposing views, which might be more accurate than mine) it seems to me the value of early vertical forearm (EVF) is to provide the swimmer with the greatest possible surface area pulling the greatest amount of water directly backward for the longest distance per stroke. if bending at the wrist creates an even earlier paddle, as long as the hand remains flat against the water, pointing directly backward, as the elbow bends and the forearm becomes part of this pulling surface, is that bad? finis must think so. but i can't see why.
this doesn't let you off the hook. your hand doesn't travel straight back. each hand first travels inward, toward the centerline. i've never seen that. but that's not the big issue. your sin is that you never come close to achieving anything like EVF. you treat your hand as the cup you use to pull water. your elbow remains dropped and low in the water. you never achieve that "paddle" or pulling surface that begins at the elbow and extends to the fingertip.
watch this video. slow it down to half-speed (click that icon that looks like a gear while the video is playing). THAT is EVF. in my opinion, if you master THIS, it will transform your stroke and your speed.
i can't find anything else to critique.
oh, and that's an interesting pool. are those glass walls? i don't know how i feel about that ;-/ Dan Empfield aka Slowman
i have two comments but i'm sure i'm missing some things, so beyond what i'll say below i'm going to let some other folks critique your stroke because i don't see much glaringly wrong for someone only swimming for 2 years.
the one thing i WOULD say is that oxygen is your friend. what i hope is that you breathe every stroke when you race a triathon, that is, if you breathe on the left then you breathe virtually every opportunity you can on the left (or on the right if you're a right side breather).
when you give us a video and you don't breathe, this means 2 things: first, that you are a good symmetric swimmer. that's good. but second, it robs us of the ability to see what bad things you do when you breathe (and the action during breathing is what really messes up a lot of adult onset swimmers). so, best in the future to give us the video that shows you doing what you will be doing when you are actually racing.
one thing i REALLY like about your stroke is how your hand stays near the surface during the extend phase, right after the catch. i think, tho, that you lose a bit of the value of that great ability you have by not creating that broad pulling surface. watch your own video, then watch the video i embedded in the post just above of grant hackett. you and hackett share a great extend phase (some people are offended if i call it the "glide" phase because they think that imputes inactivity or rest or something to that part of the stroke, so i call it the "extend" phase to appease these folks). it's when the pull begins that hackett's stroke goes in one direction and yours goes in the other. yes, this is HARD to do. but you've done pretty well up to this point in your swimming, and if you really do maintain that posture during the extend phase of the stroke then the only thing left for you is to take this step in your progression. Dan Empfield aka Slowman
you're going to get so much faster! you are a paddlewheel. imagine 2 modes of propulsion in watercraft: an old style steam-powered riverboat, like mark twain might have ridden aboard on the mississippi. and a canoe. in a canoe you reach forward, drop that canoe paddle in vertically, and then pull straight back.
the paddlewheel has propulsive surfaces that hit the water facing straight down, and then arc through the water, only pushing straight back at one small, discrete moment during each cycle. that is you.
the 2 things you must do:
1. your arms right now are like opposing propulsive surfaces on a paddlewheel. if you watch videos of good swimmers swim, they don't swim that way. after the catch, the hand stays there, almost immobile, near the surface of the water, and doesn't begin its pull until the hand of the recovering arm is at about ear level. only THEN does the pull begin. you need to spend some time, even a couple hundred yards per workout, emulating THIS technique. maybe not full catch-up (where one hand touches the other out in front before the pull begins), but at a minimum not beginning your pull until the recovering had reaches ear level.
2. you need to be a canoe paddle, not a riverboat paddle. you need to form a pulling surface from the elbow to the fingertip as early in the stroke as you can and then pull straight back against the water (just like a canoe paddle).
imagine if somebody would've come along in 1850 and thought to place those riverboat paddles on two axles, creating something like a tank tread. imagine how much more efficient that might have been, with those pulling surfaces pulling straight back for a long distance rather than making a half circle in the water. that's what we need to do with you. Dan Empfield aka Slowman
This was for a local swim 6 course I did. Six lessons in total. Including a video analyse. I'm having some trouble finding info and applying about the catch and pull. This is something i need some coaching with. The internet has been a good source but there is a limit.
For the video I was concentrating at my stroke. That's why I did not breath that much. Normally I breath every two strokes.
Funny thing is that one of the advice was that my hand should be lower. 20 cm below the surface. So this gets me doubting a little bit.
A few posts up you'll see I embedded a video of grant hackett. If your hand does what his does I think you'll be okay. Your hand should drift down about like his drifts down before commencing the pull. Dan Empfield aka Slowman
Here are a few for critique and feedback. May not be the best camera views, angles, but hopeful it will give you enough of a picture. Most are just in the 5-6 second range. Just got the camera today and still feeling it out. On another note found a great use for some left over quartz countertop from the kitchen remodel as it made a great base and weight for the cam. Thanks in advance.
Thank you for assessing my videos. I appreciate the critique, but it is also great to hear that I seem to do some things right.
Slowman wrote:
you started swimming 3 years ago?
No, unfortunately 10 years ago. The videos are 3 years old.
Slowman wrote:
your sin is that you never come close to achieving anything like EVF.
I hope that has inproved in the past 3 years, although I do think I still have to work on that. Before and during pulling I try to achieve a higher ellbow in rotating my right arm counterclockwise, and my left arm clockwise.
Slowman wrote:
oh, and that's an interesting pool. are those glass walls? i don't know how i feel about that ;-/
That's the Holiday Inn Express in Singapore, indeed glass walls. I do not know if I will ever get the opportunity again to make such demonstration videos.
here's the view you chose for the thumbnail of one of your videos:
you couldn't have expressed better what you need to work on if you thought it out and planned it. here is a vid of ian thorpe doing some drills. fast forward to the 1 minute mark, and watch 2 minutes of it, ending at the 3 minute mark:
i don't know that i'm a big fan of full catch-up drill, because it's very unnatural, very hard to do. but there are 2 things about it:
1. note how obviously ardently, urgently, thorpe is trying to keep his hand up near the surface before he begins his pull. 2. note that he maintains propulsion through the entire exercise when it's very hard (for you and me) to do so.
this is what i think would help you a lot: just this attention to the hand near the surface of the water during the extend phase, and maintaining propulsion through whatever means necessary during an abbreviated, interrupted, slowed-down freestyle.
dave scott's version of this is "slow arm recovery with hesitation."
same sorta thing. keep the extending hand near the surface, and keep forward propulsion ongoing. the difference here is that dave isn't asking you to do full catch up stroke, where one hand literally sits on top of the other before the pull is commenced. but it asks for the same discipline.
all this done, you still have to take advantage of what you now have going for you once you commence the pull: that early vertical forearm written about in posts above. (look at the grant hackett video above.)
this is the medicine i would recommend you take. Dan Empfield aka Slowman
Slowman, Thought about PM-ing you but maybe others are having similar issues.. when I hit play on the videos... it gets all fuzzy and says it won't play bc i dont have permission... love to try to help some of these video folks. daved
(happens on all the videos not just the ones users have sent in, but also the established videos like the still shot here after hitting play on dave scott video)
Hi all, Any and all critiques welcome. I'm an adult onset swimmer- been swimming the past 7 years or so. These vids were taken during lessons that I'm currently taking and hopefully benefiting from. Thanks for any feedback!
"One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time."
Slowman, lets take your two points and try to expand on them a bit in hopes of helping others w similar issues. Issues: dropped elbow while pullling pulling too quickly catch up stroke
You feel a hand near the surface is going to help him alot. (ala Dave Scott vid).
Lets take these points of reference and make them one unit and have it work for us. A fully extended arm (not hyper extended in any joints) has a certain energy in it. THink of a thin tree branch w 4 inches of heavy wet snow on it. Rounded but energized (loaded). This arm extended out in front while rolled onto that side creates a nice long boat. The longer the boat, the more speed. The quality of that line extended from pinky to pinky toe (the one that goes wee wee wee all the way home) is what you see reflecting speed in Ian thorpe (side note using him bc he basically has fins for human feet and about as much leg strength as any land based animal has ever owned.. doesnt make him the best choice for videos in my opinion.) But yes we should all see some more efficiency through this phase of our swimming. The smoother more efficient transition to a longer and more engaged edge of your boats means faster swimming without any more FORCE. *pulling back *pulling in an s or any *pulling type instruction is already coming from a land based thought paradigm of performance. To all previous videos being posted. I would add that breathing OUT is your main issue. Movements appear okay but clealy a lack of breathing is limiting some of your potential. http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
I can't tell if it is the reflection off the water or not, but it looks like the first movement your hands make when they hit the water is out to the side. The first splice of the video shows this really well on the left hand. I typically tell the swimmers I coach to think of the area between their eyes as a no fly zone. A little later as you get faster it looks like your hand placement might be a little cross of center (again could be the angle) or right on center.
The under water video shows a couple things pretty well. Not sure if it's jsut a result of looking at the camera but even in the above water video, I thought your head was a little high. I will also note here I like to see people bury the head (pure swimmer background) and I strongly disagree with the person who said that head placement does nto effect hip placement, but anyway, you are looking forward, like you would on a bike, I would like to see you tuck your chin and look down at the black line waiting for the cross.
Also, your elbow position isn't bad but it almost looked like your arm was locked out? I'd like to see a little bit of a bind in the elbow and see the elbow get really nice and high compared to the hand.
Drills: If you have a snorkel, wear it. When working on form drills I like to take breathing out of the equation so you can focus on just one thing.
Hands - Tarzan: I hate this drill because it causes the hips to sink. Try doing with a pullbuoy but that and add some stress to the low back. Pop your head above water so you can see where the hands enter and make sure they enter outside of the space between your eyes. There's not gonna be much rotation in the shoulders or hips here, and I would limit this drill since you already have a high head, but do it enough to see what it feels like then the hands are wide.
Elbows - Fist/Flip Paddle: One of my favorite drills, even for myself, if you have paddles, take the straps off and flip them and grip the bottom. This means there are no straps around your wrist, and the section of the paddle where your fingers normally sit is running up your forearm and you have a little half fist curdle around holding the end of the paddle. When that elbow slips you'll feel it real quick. If you don't have paddles or that doesn't make sense, just ball your hand into a fist and make sure you focus on getting the elbow up high over the fist.
Head - You can try just lowering the head. If that doesn't work I have had swimmers put tennis balls under their chin to hold while they swim. Superfly Coaching http://www.superflycoaching.com/eric
Thank you so much Slowman, Jason and the others!!! I will be swimming more often starting next week after Boston so I will take this advice and apply it to my workouts, I will make another video and also will make it better (half way thru a 200m instead of off the start)
splatt, i'm going to hand you off to others. there isn't anything glaringly wrong with your stroke. that i can see. i think others might be better equipped to critique you than i am. Dan Empfield aka Slowman
you're a good swimmer. your left hand crosses over. when you breathe. you compensate with a leg splay. fix that and you'll be under an hour. Dan Empfield aka Slowman
I'd like to see you a little more aggressive on the catch. You kinda do this thing like you are petting a kitten before you get into your catch, it is especially apparent from the front view. See how your hand slides sideways instead of catching?
Your palms are a little too flat, there should be slightly more cock to the wrist on the catch phase as well.
I don't see anything else. Even if you never do anything to your stroke, it's pretty solid.
You might want to work on increasing distance per stroke (not by gliding though, glide is bad) I don't think DPS should be a focal point, per se, but a longer stroke maintaining the same turnover = more speed. Turnover is easier to get than DPS in my opinion.
Thanks Jason and Slowman for the feedback. I'll definitely work on that catch and cut out the kitten petting. "One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time."
I'd like to see you a little more aggressive on the catch. You kinda do this thing like you are petting a kitten before you get into your catch, it is especially apparent from the front view. See how your hand slides sideways instead of catching?
Your palms are a little too flat, there should be slightly more cock to the wrist on the catch phase as well.
I don't see anything else. Even if you never do anything to your stroke, it's pretty solid.
You might want to work on increasing distance per stroke (not by gliding though, glide is bad) I don't think DPS should be a focal point, per se, but a longer stroke maintaining the same turnover = more speed. Turnover is easier to get than DPS in my opinion.
Hope that helps
Look at the side view, and tell me if you see any break in the elbow that would resemble an EVF. I looked at the front view and felt there was something wrong. From the side view, there is almost no point where his hand is going straight back: it's following a curve so it's either going down-and-back or up-and-back. ---------------------------------- "Go yell at an M&M"
It's difficult to tell, but it *appears* that your arm recovery is out to the side (sort of "out and around"). This results in a hand entry that is not going straight forward but from outside-to-inside. This whole motion appears to cause your body to snake, and I think *this* is why your legs splay as much as they do. This also causes your first hand motion after entry to be *back* to the outside.
And your arm is too straight during the pull. ---------------------------------- "Go yell at an M&M"
Your head swings a bit when you take a breath. In the straight on video you can see this cause your hips peaks out from behind your shoulder when you take a breath. This is definitely more next level but focus on just rotating your head vs swinging it out to the side. Your arm swing might play in here that someone else mentioned, but this is probably a balance thing where your head and hips move opposite of each other.
I think Jason mentioned something about DPS, I would almost say your stroke is too long. In my opinion, you may want to shorten the back of your stroke. The top/front/catch of your stroke is the most powerful part, while the force of the back/bottom/finish is weakest and actually can push you down in the water (tough to show that via text). Anyway, shortening your stroke will get your tempo up a bit and increase the number of times you hit the power part of your stroke. Think of it this way, as you pull your hand through your pull, when your hand can no longer stay perpendicular to the horizon of the water, get it out and get it back up to the top/front/catch.
Drills: Kick with no board and your arms at your side. This drill is tough for non swimmers, but you are going to kick, with your arms pined to your side, but keep you body rotating as you would when you swim. You are gonna have to kick like crazy, and make sure you exhale before you turn for the breath.
Scull: Front sculling can help you out with that catch, back sculling can help you out getting that hand out of the water.
Blast: I like this drill for anyone in moderation. Blast is exactly what it sounds like. Just blast. Turn your arms and legs over as fast as they can go. Toss technique out the window and just focuse on getting the turnover up. Keep the distance here to a 25 then back that 25 with a 50 focusing on one of the aspects we talked about above. ie 6*75 1st 25 blast 50 focusing on getting the hands out and back to the top. Superfly Coaching http://www.superflycoaching.com/eric
I'd like to see you a little more aggressive on the catch. You kinda do this thing like you are petting a kitten before you get into your catch, it is especially apparent from the front view. See how your hand slides sideways instead of catching?
Your palms are a little too flat, there should be slightly more cock to the wrist on the catch phase as well.
I don't see anything else. Even if you never do anything to your stroke, it's pretty solid.
You might want to work on increasing distance per stroke (not by gliding though, glide is bad) I don't think DPS should be a focal point, per se, but a longer stroke maintaining the same turnover = more speed. Turnover is easier to get than DPS in my opinion.
Hope that helps
Look at the side view, and tell me if you see any break in the elbow that would resemble an EVF. I looked at the front view and felt there was something wrong. From the side view, there is almost no point where his hand is going straight back: it's following a curve so it's either going down-and-back or up-and-back.
No, but at the same time it doesn't appear that his elbow is leading the pull, which is far worse. The evf isn't so critical in this particular case. IMO. Swimming Workout of the Day:
Thanks for your kind advice turneej, Klehner and Slowman! Quite recently I've been doing lots of swimming with snorkle and ankle band to get my alignment right (Tower26 instructions). So far I'm maybe a bit faster than last year at this time, but at this point, with my swimming hours, I'm not getting faster in big leaps.
Thanks for this thought. I read snippets of articles on using a band and tried it myself but it didn't really slow me down or add any challenge other than making kicking harder, in fact I found it hard to keep the band on (used a strong ankle band like those used in PT) so from this comment, I realize perhaps my legs and hips are not the biggest issue, which I wasn't too worried about anyway.
I need to get my fiance out to record me next week so I can post, but from an older video (that I don't have) I remember my hands and arms going in every possible direction after entering the water and before beginning my pull. Cross-over has improved a bit with zipper and finger tip drag drills but both hands point different ways as they begin the pull and sway left and right and all over the place while pulling, no S pull, more like a & pull... I think I still do that despite my attempts to focus on that, perhaps I don't know the right drills for it. 808 > NYC > PDX > YVR 2024 Races: Taupo
Hello, Watching some of the other videos I hope you can see enough from what I've recorded here. I'm a late life swimmer. Open turns. (yea I know) My plateau seems to be a 1:32/100. I was able to complete the IMLP15 swim in 1:05.
Tri is my Tribe! "Sometimes you need to slow down in order to go fast."
i have a small, picky, complaint, and i don't know if it's even of value to mention it, and others may disagree. your catch occurs very early. your hands seem to enter the water, as well as i can tell, just after they reach head level. i guess i'd like your hands to catch further in front of you.
other than that, man, just swim! you have a great foundational stroke. when you say your plateau is 1:32/100, is that SCY, SCM or LCM? Dan Empfield aka Slowman
i have a small, picky, complaint, and i don't know if it's even of value to mention it, and others may disagree. your catch occurs very early. your hands seem to enter the water, as well as i can tell, just after they reach head level. i guess i'd like your hands to catch further in front of you.
other than that, man, just swim! you have a great foundational stroke. when you say your plateau is 1:32/100, is that SCY, SCM or LCM?
Yeah this. There are guys out there much quicker than you with poorer strokes. You need some semblance of a decent stroke to go quick, but it doesn't need to be perfect. Swim more and make your sessions count. How many kms are you doing a week, what kind of sets are you doing?
Those are yards. 1:32/100 yards no flipturn. Sounds like I just need to swim more. This has been bike/run focused early season. Tri is my Tribe! "Sometimes you need to slow down in order to go fast."
yeah. well, like was said just above, it would be interesting to know your volume and what sort of workouts you do. because your technique has you primed and ready. i see no reason why you can't be repeating your hundreds on the 1:20 base, coming in on 1:12, with that technique (assuming you learn to flip turn).
the good news is, nothing much to fix. the bad news is, if you don't get a LOT faster it's because you're lazy ;-) Dan Empfield aka Slowman
Hard to tell for sure from the angles shown, but I "think" I see 2 issues.
It looks like you are bending at the waist a bit, and it looks like you are dropping your elbow on the pull.
Bending at the waist, try kicking on your back in streamline position, poke your belly button so it's as close to the surface of the water as you can. When you flip to your front, that's what the alignment should feel like.
Lots of ways to work on getting the forearms vertical throughout the pull, good one is fist drill.
Other than that, don't see much that would limit you from getting faster than that 1:32 pace.
Good to know my speed concerns are just because I'm a slacker. That should be an easy fix... All of March and April todate listed below. Some of these numbers have some drill work that is slowing down the averages.
Start Time Distance Avg Speed(100yd) Max Pace Avg Strokes Wed, Apr 19 1:24:52 3,650 yd 1:35 min 1:13 min 9 Fri, Apr 14 1:12:42 3,250 yd 1:34 min 1:18 min 10 Tue, Apr 11 1:05:45 2,600 yd 1:37 min 1:21 min 10 Fri, Apr 7 1:14:09 3,200 yd 1:35 min 1:00 min 10 Sat, Apr 1 51:00:00 2,500 yd 1:40 min 1:23 min 9 Fri, Mar 31 1:00:16 2,800 yd 1:30 min 1:16 min 9 Tue, Mar 28 38:22:00 1,800 yd 1:33 min 1:12 min 9 Mon, Mar 27 1:04:59 2,450 yd 1:32 min 1:19 min 9 Wed, Mar 22 1:08:28 2,800 yd 1:33 min 1:15 min 9 Mon, Mar 13 1:03:27 3,000 yd 1:34 min 1:17 min 10 Fri, Mar 10 1:09:17 3,250 yd 1:33 min 1:05 min 9 Wed, Mar 8 47:11:00 2,300 yd 1:37 min 1:21 min 10 Sun, Mar 5 49:04:00 2,100 yd 1:39 min 1:23 min 10 Tri is my Tribe! "Sometimes you need to slow down in order to go fast."
I have a turnover slower than that, and I'm a good bit faster than 1:32 pace (even fat and out of shape like I am now) The arm speed on the recovery phase looks good to me, which is what I look for. Being too slow on the recovery phase causes all kinds of other problems. Swimming Workout of the Day:
Essentially what it boils down to is the recovering arm isn't contributing to propulsion and is less streamlined than an outstretched arm in the water. There isn't much resistance on the recovery (air being 800x less dense than water) so it makes sense to get through that phase as relaxed and quickly as possible.
I don't have any metrics, but just eyeballing it, if it looks "careful" then it is probably too slow. Swimming Workout of the Day:
Pull is way too deep. You aren't strong enough to pull like that efficiently for more than 50 metres (no one is).
Your legs are also sinking, and the kick is too big, creating a lot of drag. Try swimming with the band (no pullbuoy or a kiddie sized one initially if you need the help) and really work on getting long out front, which (if your core is tight) will bring the legs up Swimming Workout of the Day:
I would love some advice from the slowtwitch fishes! This video is from the beginning, middle, and end of a 12 x 100 set decreasing the send off every 3 100's to show my breakdown as I fatigue. Paces here between 1:25 and 1:35 / 100y, which is about my cruising pace.
unless i'm mistaking this, you breathe sometimes on the left, sometimes on the right. that's good. you look pretty symmetrical. your cadence picks up as you get tired. no problem with that, that i can see. you don't pull as much water when you're tired so you normalize with stroke rate. understandable.
looks good. how much are you swimming? same type thing as the last guy. now it's just swim the requisite amount, do the right kind of workouts. Dan Empfield aka Slowman
Posting a lot today cuz I'm off work (just got back from vacation at 4:30 am this morning, so I took the day off)
I don't like how your hand sculls outward before starting the pull. Wasted motion, wasted motion =drag. and it stresses the rotator cuff. The reach should go straight to the point where you start your catch downward.
And it looks like youre doing the dance to "Stop! In the name of love" with your right hand before starting the pull. Think "fingers below wrist, wrist below elbow" for the entire pull. Swimming Workout of the Day:
Thank you both for the feedback... WRT Dan's comments, I will note that because I did this as a descending set, I was swimming faster as the set progressed, which may be the reason for the increased stroke rate later in the set, but if I am pulling less water, it may be something to work on... I do breath on both sides, usually every two strokes and just mix up the side every lap or length. I am putting in 3 swims per week with anywhere from 7000 to 9000 yards per week. I am sure if I swam more I would see more improvement, but I focus more on bike and run as I think there is more ROI there.
Jason, my initial take away from watching myself was that I need to get into the catch right away, which might be similar to what you are saying. I am gonna keep looking closely, but I do see what you mean about the motion before the pull and that being wasted. I have been trying to focus on my catch and a high elbow lately and that has caused me to develop the dance move you are referring to :). Thank you for the pointers and I will take them to the pool with me tomorrow!
I'll bite. Here you go. Some info. on my swimming. I think I'm a pretty comfortable 1:35/100m swimmer. For CSS testing, my recent tests for 200 all out were 2:52 and 400 at 5:59.
1. right hand crosses over when you breathe to the left, which causes... 2. legs to splay at the very moment you breathe to the left, so... 3. band your ankles tight, stick a buoy between your legs, and straighten out what i promise will be an eel-like motion when you swim with banded ankles. swim with banded ankles for 300yd to 400yd every workout until you straighten out.
concurrently...
1. you look muscularly strong, that is, strong enough to swim with an early vertical forearm. so, do that.
do those 2 things and you'll swim your 400m in 5:20 instead of 5:59. Dan Empfield aka Slowman
Thanks for the feedback. I totally understand the early vertical forearm thing, I'm just having some difficulty putting it into action, mainly from a flexibility standpoint. Will certainly try the band thing. I know the crossover on breathing to the left seems bad. Working on that.
look at your kick. see that splay? that's because of what you do when you breathe. fixing the crossover isn't all. there's a misalignment when you breathe. a torquing at the waist. the crossover is a symptom of that. so it's not just fixing the hand placement. i promise you if you band your legs that will create a new, much more apparent problem (fishtailing), and fixing THAT problem will take care of the leg splay, the crossover, all of it. Dan Empfield aka Slowman
I got some video at practice last night (just set up the camera at the end of the lane during main set and let 'er roll). I haven't watched it yet, but hopefully it is usable. if so, I'll put something up here for feedback. Swimming Workout of the Day:
I hadn't recorded myself in a while, I thought it was time to do it again. I wanted to see several things:
1.- How does my form differ from wetsuit, to fins, to buoy, to nothing. Especially, my horizontal position, as in how much do my legs keep sinking without the help of toys or the wetsuit.
2.- How does my form change as I fatigue. I swam all of these with no more than 60s rest in between, as I took the wetsuit off, or got ready with the different toys.
This is my swimming 400yds in the wetsuit. (I removed all the sections where I am not on camera, so it'll be faster)
Then this is me doing a 200yd with fins
Then this is me doing 200yd with the pull buoy (please excuse my kicking lol)
Now 100yd without anything
And 100yd with paddles and buoy (again, please excuse my kicking)
A few yards from the front
Feedback is greatly appreciate it.
Some notes: I know I'm still dropping my right elbow, this is a problem I have been carrying over for many many months, and I thought I had fixed it, but it is pretty obvious I haven't. The other one is my pull goes super wide on my right side. I am not sure if this is a strength issue, as it shouldn't, since I am right handed and I'm much stronger on that arm, so I don't know why I have these 2 glaring mistakes on my right arm.
Edit: I gave it a little more thought to my right arm mechanics. When I was a kid I broke that arm 2 times, 1st time I broke the bones in my fore-arm, second time I broke bones on my wrist. I have some kind of flexibility issue where I can't fully rotate that arm to get into a vertical fore-arm position. It requires a bit of extra effort to do it, and I need to rotate from the shoulder a bit more. So maybe that's why that arm is doing what it's doing. Any advice to overcome this?
The other one is my pull goes super wide on my right side
I expect the experts will chime in shortly. Its hard to tell from that angle but are you sure the right arm is too wide, or the left arm is not wide enough and crossing over? ______________________________________________________________
The other one is my pull goes super wide on my right side
I expect the experts will chime in shortly. Its hard to tell from that angle but are you sure the right arm is too wide, or the left arm is not wide enough and crossing over?
Yes, I agree that my left arm crosses over a bit. The other thing I am noticing, and especially on the front facing videos, is that my kick is so wide, and I'm pressing down on the water with my left hand.
I'm an AOS, and always come out the water too far down to be competitive. I'm a decent cyclist/runner, so have been focusing on swimming more the last year.
For the last manage 3-4 swim workouts per week, and average about 2,500m per session,.
I have taken my 1,500m open water time down from around 27/28 mins 2-3 years ago to around 23-24 mins today. I did the Guppy challenge which took my pool 1,500m time (SCM) from around 25:30 at the start to just under 24:00 by the end, however have plateaued over the last 4 months.
I typically do my 100m repeats (now in a 20m pool), in around 1:25-1:28, and leave on 1:50.
Would love to get my 1.9km time to comfortably under 30 mins and my 1,500m time to closer to 21 mins ultimately.
Video is of a 100m repeat late in a set. Apologies for video rotation and lack of underwater view. Appreciate any advice!
You're crossing over on your stroke which is causing you to "snake" down the lane. You need to enter your hands wider...that will be easier if you rotate just enough to keep one goggle in/one goggle out when you breathe.
Your kick doesn't look like it's helping to drive core rotation. In a 2 beat kick there should be a definite "snap" to the kick.
If you clean up those 2 items, you'll definitely save some time.
About 24/25 strokes per length...that's a bit high. The back end of your stroke is really short...basically stopping at your waist, if not shorter. To work on that, I would initially slow my tempo down and try to extend the stroke to the top of your thigh. Some catch-up drill work with a pull buoy might help you focus on a full finish with each stroke.
The catch-up drill or Slowman's 3/4 catch-up drill will help eliminate some of the extra drag I see at the front of your stroke. It looks like your lead arm drifts down to about a 45 degree angle while you're other arm is recovering....that's creating drag with no propulsive offset.
Oh, and work on your streamlines off the wall (hands locked on top of one another and arms tight against the ears). :)
Hey- you are starting your pull too early. Your pull should start from your hips. How to fix- swim freestyle with a dolphin kick. Instead of doing flutter kick, do the smallest dolphin kick. SMALL. Play with the timing of it. When you get it right, you will get the feeling of your pull being driving from your core, and not your shoulder. http://www.savagesentiments.blogspot.com/ http://www.tricoachmartin.com/ https://www.facebook.com/teameverymanjack
1. note how obviously ardently, urgently, thorpe is trying to keep his hand up near the surface before he begins his pull. .
One of my issues is that my left arm (non-breathing) drops and the catch and pull is subsequently late, similar to the photo below (that's not me). Would the fix be to hold the arm/hand near the surface? Does this mean there is a bit of a glide? TIA
She is a self-taught AOS swimmer who has been swimming 2-3 years. Her 1500m time is around 26 minutes, usually the weakest leg in a triathlon. Any advice is welcome -- critique, drills, training, etc.
She is a self-taught AOS swimmer who has been swimming 2-3 years. Her 1500m time is around 26 minutes, usually the weakest leg in a triathlon. Any advice is welcome -- critique, drills, training, etc.
i might be wrong, but i think that's something like an 8-beat kick. or more. i think it's going to be hard to disrupt an ingrained kicking pattern. but i would break the stroke down into discrete segments, one-arm pulls, things like that, where she focus on counting her kicks and make sure she's kicking 3x for every arm pull.
i would also have her then focus on her pull underwater. there's not much form to it. there doesn't seem to be much reasoning or thought behind it. i suspect there's plenty of drills talked about in this thread higher up designed to get her to form a pulling surface from her elbow to fingertip, keep the elbow high in the water, and pull.
and as noted just above, head is a little high which sinks the feet.
otherwise, she's strong. if she was raised by wolves and got this far, she's going to be a good swimmer. Dan Empfield aka Slowman
To add on to what Dan said...that looks like a sprinters kick. If she can kick like that for a 1500, I'm impressed.
That being said, her kick is somewhat masking a pretty weak pull. Her hand is almost right under her head before she starts pulling. She needs to initiate the catch further out in front. Two drills I like to do to work on the forward catch...1.Tarzan drill- you swim with your head up out of the water...it requires you to set the catch early and with a high elbow 2. Catch-up drill- you don't start the catch and pull until the recovering hand "catches up" to your other hand that's out in front. This drill helps to focus your attention on setting the catch out in front.
The other thing to be aware of is your elbow. You want to keep it up and you don't want to be leading with it in your pull. You're slipping water if that elbow leads the hand.
And yes, her head is a bit high.
She looks great for someone new to the sport...lots of upside.
I'd put some work into the kick. I know Dan said an ingrained kick can be hard to work out because it is something you do all the time but I would do some vertical kick sets in the deep end with your hands out of the water. From the video I get the sense that you are kicking a lot more from the knee than using your whole leg and driving from the hip. The kick just strikes me as imbalanced and I have found that with vertical kick people tend towards a much more natural kick because it forces you to do it properly to keep afloat. Get a feeling for how a more proper kick feels when doing vertical kick and try and transfer that to your normal stroke (but in a 2,4, or6 beat kick style). There is a point in your kick where it appears as though you have 2-3 left leg kicks for 1 right. Breaking down the stroke into discrete segments is really a good idea. Throw the drills into warmup and some at the end as long as you can maintain proper form for them (no sense in enforcing bad habits if you are too tired to hold form for drills).
Lots of crossover in the front of your stroke. Imagine your hand coming straight out from your shoulder like they are connected by a pole that goes straight out from your shoulder and enter the water there. If you're doing catch up drill, don't do the whole finger tap thing where your hands touch at the front end. This just reinforces poor hand entry and crossover.
and as noted just above, head is a little high which sinks the feet.
Everyone keeps saying this, but I just don't see the physics behind it. Unless you mean that raising the head sinks the entire body (a fraction of an inch, maybe).
How does that work, exactly? ---------------------------------- "Go yell at an M&M"
I'm not really seeing this in the stroke either. The waterline is between her hairline and the centre of her head. This is a pretty reasonable head position. You don't want to start pushing your head too far into the water and start having water go over the back of your head in an extreme case. If the water line was between her eyes and forehead I would advice her to straighten out her head position... The legs being a bit low? I would more likely attribute to a weaker kick and pull.
If you watch your video on youtube, you can stop it and then progress frame by frame by just pushing the period (.) button. When you do that you can see that your right arm -- the near arm -- kinda gets to the 5 o'clock position before you get any torque on that elbow and start really pushing yourself forward. When you do that, and you open up your entire shoulder and upper arm, they become a drag force slowing you down. You also are not getting much out of what could be the the most propulsive parts of the pull. It's very difficult for that hand to produce consistent force when it is that far beneath your body -- you get to almost 6 o'clock with a completely straight arm. You're going to be stronger -- especially for triathlon distances -- with that hand and elbow more shallow in the water.
I like to watch this 200 freestyle video. The Japanese guy they film is 5'9" tall, and he basically has a bad touch to get 2nd place. He's going faster than any of us here ever will, and it looks like he's gliding too much when you see his underwater film footage.
If you watch your video on youtube, you can stop it and then progress frame by frame by just pushing the period (.) button. When you do that you can see that your right arm -- the near arm -- kinda gets to the 5 o'clock position before you get any torque on that elbow and start really pushing yourself forward. When you do that, and you open up your entire shoulder and upper arm, they become a drag force slowing you down. You also are not getting much out of what could be the the most propulsive parts of the pull. It's very difficult for that hand to produce consistent force when it is that far beneath your body -- you get to almost 6 o'clock with a completely straight arm. You're going to be stronger -- especially for triathlon distances -- with that hand and elbow more shallow in the water.
I like to watch this 200 freestyle video. The Japanese guy they film is 5'9" tall, and he basically has a bad touch to get 2nd place. He's going faster than any of us here ever will, and it looks like he's gliding too much when you see his underwater film footage.
I am an AOS swimmer, 1500m open water time is 30-31 minutes. This video looks moderately awful to me, but it's hard for me to see what needs to be fixed. My speed in kick drills is really slow, so I assume the kick needs work in addition to better ankle flexibility. It looks like my whole upper body is moving around too much, which cannot be good. Any suggestions, criticism, and areas to work on would be greatly appreciated! I intend to do some serious work on my stroke between now and next Spring.
play both videos simultaneously, and slow them both down to half speed (using the "gear" icon which designates youtube settings).
the big difference between the two of you is what happens immediately after the catch:
1. your hand drifts down during the glide or extend phase after the catch; his stays near the surface of the water during the extend phase. 2. there is very little extend phase after your catch; you're extended hand should remain near the surface and your pull shouldn't commence until your recovering hand is at about ear level. by the time your recovering hand is ear level your pulling hand is already partway through its cycle. especially your right hand, which is halfway through its pull cycling before your left hand is even out of the water. 3. once the extend phase is concluded, hackett bends at the elbow (not at the shoulder, not at the wrist). you don't really ever bend your elbow.
what's this all about? what's the point? i've been looking at videos where dragonboat and outrigger paddlers explain proper technique, and they stress the angle of attack of the paddle. rather than rotating the paddle throughout a cycle in the water like a paddlewheel, they reach forward, drop the paddle in vertically, and pull straight back. same thing. you're a paddlewheel, hackett is forming a paddle, which extends from the elbow to the fingertip. he's anchoring himself to the water with that paddle, and pulling his body past it.
you'll use different muscles doing this than you're using now. it's going to take awhile. but you look young and strong and i don't see why you can't eventually morph your technique toward pulling more water, and pulling it in the proper direction (straight back).
you are going to be so much faster if you can generate a reasonable facsimile of a proper extend phase, and if you can reorient the timing of your arm action, where both hands are in front of your head at the same time instead of both hands being behind your head at the same time. Dan Empfield aka Slowman
Ok thanks for that. I think my left is OK though? So I just need to mirror that?
Your left arm is better I think, but it still shows signs of the arm sinking down to begin the pull. Also, it's tough to tell from that angle but it may be that your hand is going side to side in some kind of S motion instead of just pulling straight back. The S motion tends to keep the focus on pulling with just your hand instead of the whole forearm+hand.
What I try to concentrate on sometimes is starting my pull with that elbow kept up on the surface above my head for as long as possible. That does three things: 1.) It keeps me streamline and gliding as I start the pull (by pushing my hand down as my elbow stays near the surface). 2.) It keeps the pull long as I start the grab with my entire hand and forearm. 3.) Hmmm... I forgot the third thing right now.
I don't want to overwhelm you with advice, but you put a lot of pressure on me by threatening to just copy your left arm. =)
you are going to be so much faster if you can generate a reasonable facsimile of a proper extend phase, and if you can reorient the timing of your arm action, where both hands are in front of your head at the same time instead of both hands being behind your head at the same time.
That sounds like a generalization that is not applicable to all swimmers. It certainly isn't applicable to me. A longer extension is counterproductive if the swimmer is not very hydrodynamic or does not have any kick propulsion: there's no thrust going on and lots of drag. If you aren't pulling or kicking, you are slowing down. Every good swimmer I've seen with a catch-up stroke (which is what you advocate) has outstanding body position during the glide phase. I regularly swim with a guy who had the fastest amateur (and second fastest overall by :05) swim split at Lake Placid one year, and he swims nothing like that (he's also somewhat short).
You never did respond to why your legs necessarily sink (as opposed to your whole body) when you raise your head.
While you are educating me, perhaps you can explain how using ankle bands helps a swimmer whose legs sink. ---------------------------------- "Go yell at an M&M"
you are going to be so much faster if you can generate a reasonable facsimile of a proper extend phase, and if you can reorient the timing of your arm action, where both hands are in front of your head at the same time instead of both hands being behind your head at the same time.
That sounds like a generalization that is not applicable to all swimmers. It certainly isn't applicable to me. A longer extension is counterproductive if the swimmer is not very hydrodynamic or does not have any kick propulsion: there's no thrust going on and lots of drag. If you aren't pulling or kicking, you are slowing down. Every good swimmer I've seen with a catch-up stroke (which is what you advocate) has outstanding body position during the glide phase. I regularly swim with a guy who had the fastest amateur (and second fastest overall by :05) swim split at Lake Placid one year, and he swims nothing like that (he's also somewhat short). You never did respond to why your legs necessarily sink (as opposed to your whole body) when you raise your head.
While you are educating me, perhaps you can explain how using ankle bands helps a swimmer whose legs sink.
Are you joking? The answer to those questions is so obvious, that I certainly hope you're joking.
But just in the off-chance you're not trolling and actually don't know the answer to those questions (hard for me to believe given your swim speed, but then again, you were one of those folks for whom fast AOS swimming came to in <1yr of effort):
- Swim a 1000m Tarzan/Weismuller style head-full out of the water, and get back to us as to how much harder you had to kick to maintain a flat body position because your legs were sinking.
- If you're a 'leg sinker', and are using kicking to keep your legs up (instead of properly using good body position), the ankle band will expose that weakness (no kicking), and then you can go about fixing it. And I'm one of those quad-heavy guys (I seriously look like T-rex genetically; legpress 1000+lbs on a leg press machine with no weight training at 145 bodyweight) so if I can do the ankle band swim even with quads like mine, anyone can do it.
That sounds like a generalization that is not applicable to all swimmers. It certainly isn't applicable to me. A longer extension is counterproductive if the swimmer is not very hydrodynamic or does not have any kick propulsion: there's no thrust going on and lots of drag.
i think that's fair, and gerry rodrigues told me he feels that whole theme is not worth pursuing for adult onset swimmers. however, this particular swimmer is an example of not simply a failure to exhibit a catch-uppy stroke, he's the opposite. i wouldn't harp on this with him except he's got one arm past his midpoint before the recovering arm reaches his ear. he's acutely devoid of anything like the stroke exhibited by fast swimmers. therefore, in my opinion, if he could be brought just partway toward orthodoxy i think that would be a benefit.
klehner wrote:
If you aren't pulling or kicking, you are slowing down. Every good swimmer I've seen with a catch-up stroke (which is what you advocate) has outstanding body position during the glide phase.
you're right, if you're not propelling you're stalling during the extend phase. but the stalling is much worse when you have two arms behind the head concurrently. there is no propulsion motif, body position, that's going to do you much good.
klehner wrote:
You never did respond to why your legs necessarily sink (as opposed to your whole body) when you raise your head.
it isn't because i didn't see it. i just don't think there is too much you can load on one swimmer at one time.
klehner wrote:
While you are educating me, perhaps you can explain how using ankle bands helps a swimmer whose legs sink.
fine. just, what is the point of the snark? you seem to have some heartburn over something, so can we clear that up first? Dan Empfield aka Slowman
whatever it is that's wrong with your stroke is beyond my capacity to fix, not because it's that bad, but because it's that good. i'd like to see what it looks like head on, and also above the water, but i don't see anything from this angle to fix.
that doesn't mean there aren't things to fix. just that i'm not good enough to pick anything out that obviously needs fixing. maybe you can show me how you ride or run and i'll find something wrong ;-) Dan Empfield aka Slowman
you are going to be so much faster if you can generate a reasonable facsimile of a proper extend phase, and if you can reorient the timing of your arm action, where both hands are in front of your head at the same time instead of both hands being behind your head at the same time.
That sounds like a generalization that is not applicable to all swimmers. It certainly isn't applicable to me. A longer extension is counterproductive if the swimmer is not very hydrodynamic or does not have any kick propulsion: there's no thrust going on and lots of drag. If you aren't pulling or kicking, you are slowing down. Every good swimmer I've seen with a catch-up stroke (which is what you advocate) has outstanding body position during the glide phase. I regularly swim with a guy who had the fastest amateur (and second fastest overall by :05) swim split at Lake Placid one year, and he swims nothing like that (he's also somewhat short). You never did respond to why your legs necessarily sink (as opposed to your whole body) when you raise your head.
While you are educating me, perhaps you can explain how using ankle bands helps a swimmer whose legs sink.
Are you joking? The answer to those questions is so obvious, that I certainly hope you're joking.
But just in the off-chance you're not trolling and actually don't know the answer to those questions (hard for me to believe given your swim speed, but then again, you were one of those folks for whom fast AOS swimming came to in <1yr of effort):
- Swim a 1000m Tarzan/Weismuller style head-full out of the water, and get back to us as to how much harder you had to kick to maintain a flat body position because your legs were sinking.
- If you're a 'leg sinker', and are using kicking to keep your legs up (instead of properly using good body position), the ankle band will expose that weakness (no kicking), and then you can go about fixing it. And I'm one of those quad-heavy guys (I seriously look like T-rex genetically; legpress 1000+lbs on a leg press machine with no weight training at 145 bodyweight) so if I can do the ankle band swim even with quads like mine, anyone can do it.
I'm not joking. Explain the physics of how raising your head sinks your legs. Not just your whole body (which physics would explain), but just your legs. In a weightless/bouyant environment, raising your head will cause your feet to *rise* from a purely action/reaction point of view: you aren't pivoting around some fixed point. And, yeah, lifting your head into a Tarzan position takes a lot of energy, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a position where you are looking forward more than down (which necessitates a more "heads-up" position).
Clarification: explain to me how using ankle bands will help a swimmer *who already knows* his/her legs are not at the surface. I've seen multiple videos posted here to which the response was "your legs are sinking: use ankle bands to fix that." ---------------------------------- "Go yell at an M&M"
That sounds like a generalization that is not applicable to all swimmers. It certainly isn't applicable to me. A longer extension is counterproductive if the swimmer is not very hydrodynamic or does not have any kick propulsion: there's no thrust going on and lots of drag.
i think that's fair, and gerry rodrigues told me he feels that whole theme is not worth pursuing for adult onset swimmers. however, this particular swimmer is an example of not simply a failure to exhibit a catch-uppy stroke, he's the opposite. i wouldn't harp on this with him except he's got one arm past his midpoint before the recovering arm reaches his ear. he's acutely devoid of anything like the stroke exhibited by fast swimmers. therefore, in my opinion, if he could be brought just partway toward orthodoxy i think that would be a benefit.
klehner wrote:
If you aren't pulling or kicking, you are slowing down. Every good swimmer I've seen with a catch-up stroke (which is what you advocate) has outstanding body position during the glide phase.
you're right, if you're not propelling you're stalling during the extend phase. but the stalling is much worse when you have two arms behind the head concurrently. there is no propulsion motif, body position, that's going to do you much good.
klehner wrote:
You never did respond to why your legs necessarily sink (as opposed to your whole body) when you raise your head.
it isn't because i didn't see it. i just don't think there is too much you can load on one swimmer at one time.
klehner wrote:
While you are educating me, perhaps you can explain how using ankle bands helps a swimmer whose legs sink.
fine. just, what is the point of the snark? you seem to have some heartburn over something, so can we clear that up first?
Go back and look at the video in question, and look at the hand at *the end of the pull*. While this swimmer could use some more extension in front, the big issue is that there is a huge delay in beginning the recovery: the swimmer basically pauses with his hand, underwater, next to his hip. Finishing the pull and starting the recovery more rapidly will bring the recovering hand further forward relative to the pulling of the opposite arm. This swimmer has two arms in the wrong position because of that, not mainly because of the lack of extension.
Re snark: people here, while honestly and earnestly trying to help, say things that just don't match with reality. A number of people keep saying that raising your head lowers your legs, and nobody can explain the physics behind it. A number of people claim that ankle bands will *help* keep your legs from sinking, or from crossing over, but nobody will back it up with *why* that might help (probably because it won't).
I'm quite willing to be educated. ---------------------------------- "Go yell at an M&M"
I'm not joking. Explain the physics of how raising your head sinks your legs. Not just your whole body (which physics would explain), but just your legs. In a weightless/bouyant environment, raising your head will cause your feet to *rise* from a purely action/reaction point of view: you aren't pivoting around some fixed point. And, yeah, lifting your head into a Tarzan position takes a lot of energy, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a position where you are looking forward more than down (which necessitates a more "heads-up" position).
Clarification: explain to me how using ankle bands will help a swimmer *who already knows* his/her legs are not at the surface. I've seen multiple videos posted here to which the response was "your legs are sinking: use ankle bands to fix that."
Uhh, I think you're making this leg sinking way more complicated and theoretical for the sake of argument and not focusing on reality.
You pop your head out of the water, and what's the first thing that sinks, and fast - your legs. The whole reason the Tarzan swim takes so much energy is that you have to kick so hard to keep those sinking legs up, not because the head creates so much more resistance out of the water. No physics necessary - just reality.
And with the ankle bands - could I tell you IN WORDS how I learned to swim with ankle bands without sinking? Answer is NO, but that's not the point - you just do it over and over, first with a buoy and loose band, then with buoy+tight band, then band only, and let your nervous system unconsciously figure out the details. You actually do often leg sinkers a disservice by trying to dissect the reasons their legs are sinking by focusing on one communicable thing - it's usually a combination of many things (arm stroke imbalance, head position, overrotation,etc), all of which are improved simultaneously with drilling with the ankle band.
i'm going to dispense with the quotes because i think we both know the issues we're talking about.
extend, glide, whatever you want to call that phase: i don't think there's any particular merit to gliding. the truest thing you can say about the actual mechanics of the pull - whether you want to call it high elbow anchor, swimming over a barrel, is that there's a bend at the elbow. you either do or don't bend at the elbow. the reason for it, the power of it, is that you can create a pulling surface from the elbow to the fingertip that is perpendicular to the medium (the water). the earlier you make that pulling surface the better, so that you can pull yourself through the water further with each stroke.
what i see with this swimmer is the same thing you see, more or less. i think there's always going to be a delay, because i think the recovery just takes longer than the pull, if you're going to get a full pull, and you're going to pull the way i describe above. i think it's better to have that delay occur at the front of the stroke rather than at the rear. even drop dead sprinters have the recovering hand ready to hit the water by the time the pulling hand is directly underneath the head.
if there is a better way to express that both hands should routinely be in front of the head, but both hands should never be behind the head, i'm eager to hear it.
as for banding the feet, my major interest here is when feet splay. i think that's a vestige of adult onset swimmers bending their waists to breathe, and it's very hard to break swimmers of that. if you don't let the feet splay - which is a natural counterbalance to torquing at the waist - then the swimmer becomes the wriggling eel. i always float the legs when i bind the ankles. i'm not trying - in this case - to get the swimmer to fix the head position, bringing the legs up. i'm interested in working on a different plane. if i can stop the swimmer from torquing at the waist during breathing, i can stop a number of bad things:
1. i can stop a crossover during the catch. why is it that swimmers don't think they're crossing over when they are? i think it's often because they're not crossing over relative to their bodies, but they are relative to the pool. if you keep their bodies from torquing and bending while taking a breath, that crossover will largely go away.
2. you stop the leg splay during breathing, because the swimmer no longer needs that counterbalancing technique. Dan Empfield aka Slowman
You have a disconnect between what your legs and arms are doing. There isn't much of a discernible pattern to your kick. As one hand is entering the water, you should have the opposite leg initiating a solid kick at the same time. This is true for 2-4-6 beat kick. What is happening is that there is a moment when your hands are not contributing to any propulsion (this is true for all) when they enter the water and the kick that is being initiated at this moment helps to compensate for this lack of propulsion and helps to balance you out in the water.
You need to become more aware of what all your body parts are doing at any given moment when you are swimming. A lot of becoming fast in swimming is technique. You can't beat the water into making you go faster, you will always lose that fight. Swimming is not a forgiving sport and you need to always pay attention to the small details. If you want to work on your coordination, 6-kick switch drill will be your friend. The idea is just to become keenly aware of exactly what your limbs are doing and being in control of them. Then, transfer this awareness to every single time you kick in your normal freestyle swim sets.
I'm not the least bit qualified to critique your stroke, but damn, whoever you have filming you has some ankle flexibility I'd kill for. @floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
Watched his vid just to see what you were talking about. Agreed. Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket. Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
I’m no expert at all, but your elbows are dropping and your feet are way wide. I’m sure other more expert than I will do better than me, but that’s what I see. Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer. But I'm learning and making progress.
i love your right arm. to my marginally trained eye, it's perfect. it's pro. left arm is not at that leel. i'd like to see it all on top of the water as well. Dan Empfield aka Slowman
i love your right arm. to my marginally trained eye, it's perfect. it's pro. left arm is not at that level.
I was going to say the same thing. The left are is all over the place. Entry looks like it's slightly too far inward (the above straight on video would help ID this further). Then, the hand flares out really wide before coming back in. I'd focus on trying to pull straight back after the catch with the left hand and keeping the left hand under the shoulder (or at least inside the elbow). Would like to see more bend in the elbow during the early stages of the pull to accomplish that.
i love your right arm. to my marginally trained eye, it's perfect. it's pro. left arm is not at that level.
I was going to say the same thing. The left are is all over the place. Entry looks like it's slightly too far inward (the above straight on video would help ID this further). Then, the hand flares out really wide before coming back in. I'd focus on trying to pull straight back after the catch with the left hand and keeping the left hand under the shoulder (or at least inside the elbow). Would like to see more bend in the elbow during the early stages of the pull to accomplish that.
This is probably the best explanation of one of the many form issues I have seen yet. And I have watched a lot of video. Until reading this, I had absolutely no idea that my arms are supposed to form a vertical paddle that translates through the water versus rotating through the water. The phrase "high elbow" only confused me until now.
I am super interested to try to figure out in my next swim if I am doing straight arm. I would bet anything that I am.
I just ordered some stuff to help film my swims. I look forward to getting way faster!
i will be interested to see what monty says, if he sees and replies to this, but i would say the following: you are a very good learner. while i could get picky about certain aspects of what's in the video, the impression i get is that you've spent a lot of time trying to absorb and apply a lot of what you read, and see, and what really good swimmers do. your stroke looks like stroke drill. at a certain point, you have to take all you've learned out for a spin. your stroke looks like the gimp in the basement, all bound up, with an orange ball in his mouth. the gimp needs to be let out of the basement, out in the sunlight, to terrorize the neighborhood. how do we translate that analogy to swimming?
i'm kind of like this. i've got this stroke that looks like i mainlined a syringe full of swimsmooth. you can never tell that i'm working when i'm swimming, even when i'm sprinting all out. which is fine, as far as it goes, but one thing that makes a big difference, with me, is when monty and i swim repeat 50s, on the minute, and i go pretty much all out. my turnover (cadence, stroke rate) really has to increase. i kind of have to just grip it and rip it, as fast as i can turn my arms over. this is the gimp (that is my stroke) getting let out of the basement. basically, i'm doing whatever i can to keep up with monty. which i can't do. but after a few workouts that include those repeat 50s, i'm swimming 35s and 36s instead of 39s and 40s.
i would recommend that to you. now, for you, i think another thing would be helpful, and that is binding your ankles together, along with floating your lower body. so, something like a pull buoy, with velcro around your ankles. or, an inflated wheelbarrow tube. there is no good product made for this. unfortunately. but if you swam repeat 50s, with a lot of rest, as fast as you can, and with bound ankles, i'd like to see what that would do for your gimp stroke. Dan Empfield aka Slowman
i will be interested to see what monty says, if he sees and replies to this, but i would say the following: you are a very good learner. while i could get picky about certain aspects of what's in the video, the impression i get is that you've spent a lot of time trying to absorb and apply a lot of what you read, and see, and what really good swimmers do. your stroke looks like stroke drill. at a certain point, you have to take all you've learned out for a spin. your stroke looks like the gimp in the basement, all bound up, with an orange ball in his mouth. the gimp needs to be let out of the basement, out in the sunlight, to terrorize the neighborhood. how do we translate that analogy to swimming?
Much appreciated and hilarious analogies. Yes, it's trying to incorporate so much. thing is, I'm a 50sec 100y, 1:52 200y, 4:13 400IM, sub 25min 1.2mi swimmer! but my freestyle sucks. will work on tuning up that left arm, not using legs for support when breathing, getting into a more relaxed stroke (taking the ball out of mouth...) wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
i will be interested to see what monty says, if he sees and replies to this, but i would say the following: you are a very good learner. while i could get picky about certain aspects of what's in the video, the impression i get is that you've spent a lot of time trying to absorb and apply a lot of what you read, and see, and what really good swimmers do. your stroke looks like stroke drill. at a certain point, you have to take all you've learned out for a spin. your stroke looks like the gimp in the basement, all bound up, with an orange ball in his mouth. the gimp needs to be let out of the basement, out in the sunlight, to terrorize the neighborhood. how do we translate that analogy to swimming?
Much appreciated and hilarious analogies. Yes, it's trying to incorporate so much. thing is, I'm a 50sec 100y, 1:52 200y, 4:13 400IM, sub 25min 1.2mi swimmer! but my freestyle sucks. will work on tuning up that left arm, not using legs for support when breathing, getting into a more relaxed stroke (taking the ball out of mouth...)
well, then, you don't need any help from me, for sure! when i saw your first video, and i saw that right arm, i thought, why is this guy asking for help? there's no olympic swimmer i could point to who's got a better looking pull. the left arm, not as refined. the leg splay, it's not that bad, but still, i can't explain that in the context of a swimmer who swims that fast.
if you swim 1:52 for 200 scy, i would expect more like 22min for 1.2mi. i guess i'd like to see a video of your freestyle at full speed. it seems to me the last video you sent is you swimming as slow as you can go and still keep afloat. Dan Empfield aka Slowman
This is nice. Here few relatively recent videos (I think before the 2nd Covid break). I know the angle is not the best, but any feedback is welcome. One is relaxed pace, another a bit more effort, pool is 25m (SCM) pool. Completely selflearned (ok, actually not, I went to swimming school when I was 5 years old, graduated with ability to swim one pool length)
Got some video of myself. Underwater, above water. Kicking, Side kicking, and swimming with fins. Hoping to get some side and above video soon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNNDBmyS7fM Things I think I'm doing wrong(Please add if you see others.): -Head is too beneath the surface. -My catch is too wide, although it appears my reach is right in line with my shoulder. I see this could explain my shoulder soreness at times. -My right arm goes in too steep -My left arm goes down, up and out. Over reaching? Pointing with my thumb and not my middle finger? -Is my kick too wide? All of this is pretty eye opening for me because when I am in the water it feels like I'm doing everything correctly. I have no idea how to get my head higher up in the water. Any help is appreciated. IG - @ryanppax http://www.geluminati.com Use code ST5 for $5 off your order
I've finally managed to video my swim, albeit with no outside help and only a stationary camera. It is always a shocking revelation how mistaken my perceived form is and how much what I actually do differs from what I think I am doing.
Looking for any advice, tips or critical feedback, particularly on the leg splay / elbow drop / core crunch when I breathe and the weird things my right hand does during catch and pull. Thank you very much in advance.
I've finally managed to video my swim, albeit with no outside help and only a stationary camera. It is always a shocking revelation how mistaken my perceived form is and how much what I actually do differs from what I think I am doing.
Looking for any advice, tips or critical feedback, particularly on the leg splay / elbow drop / core crunch when I breathe and the weird things my right hand does during catch and pull. Thank you very much in advance.
i've seen way worse strokes than this. i got nuttin'. it looks good to me. i don't see a lot of leg splay, or elbow drop. i don't exactly see grant hackett quality high elbow anchor, but how many people achieve that? what kind of speed do you have? what pool - SCY, LCY, SCM - and what is a typical set? what's your repeat interval and what do you come in on? Dan Empfield aka Slowman
Looks pretty darn good to me too. You’ve got a little hitch in your right arm stroke that starts about midway through the stroke and causes you to fishtail the finish. I’m not sure what’s causing that but it’s probably robbing you of a little speed.
Very hard to tell, things are evolving quickly since I raised my volume. I’m doing a lot of 100s on 2:00 at the moment, for 10x100 I can stay below 1:40, 20x100 I’ll end up averaging maybe 1:40 or 1:41, all LCM.
A typical set could look like this (50m pool)
300 mixed stroke warm up 200 easy 4*50 kick w/ snorkel 200 easy 6*100 pull w/ pull bouy and snorkel *distance or speed set like 10-20x100 or 4x600* Cool down, alternative breathing patterns
I’ve been around 30 minutes in a 70.3 swim (wetsuit, calm ocean) for a few seasons. Now I’ve raised my volume and am focusing much more in swimming and want to get as close to 55 as possible in Roth and Copenhagen next year.
Very hard to tell, things are evolving quickly since I raised my volume. I’m doing a lot of 100s on 2:00 at the moment, for 10x100 I can stay below 1:40, 20x100 I’ll end up averaging maybe 1:40 or 1:41, all LCM.
A typical set could look like this (50m pool)
300 mixed stroke warm up 200 easy 4*50 kick w/ snorkel 200 easy 6*100 pull w/ pull bouy and snorkel *distance or speed set like 10-20x100 or 4x600* Cool down, alternative breathing patterns
I’ve been around 30 minutes in a 70.3 swim (wetsuit, calm ocean) for a few seasons. Now I’ve raised my volume and am focusing much more in swimming and want to get as close to 55 as possible in Roth and Copenhagen next year.
i don't see anything glaringly wrong. i would think if you deployed that stroke swimming with a kick arse master's team x 4 days a week x 6 months you'd see massive improvement. Dan Empfield aka Slowman
Overall looks pretty good, but it does look like your hips ride low, and your kick in too deep. It kind of looks like your foot flexion is pointing down instead of back. I think if you think about splashing your kick a bit, tighten it up a little, that will bring your entire back end up to the surface a bit more. That seems to be your biggest drag. And maybe an inch or so wider entry on the left arm, and hold the catch for just a smidgen more.
This is a place for our resident expert Snapping T to chime in, he can see stuff like that a lot more clearly, and the fixes for them.
Alright, I will bite on this. I've been lurking on the forum for a long time now and I would love some tips on improving my stroke. I've been stuck at a comfortable 1:40ish pace for a long time. Context: Been swimming for about 5 years Currently super low volume and building back in Typically 3-4xweek 8-10k weekly total Best 70.3 swim - 32:23 Best 140.6 swim - 1:07:00
Any help or tips for improving my swim stroke would be greatly appreciated! Here is my swim from a few different angles, with some at regular speed and some slow motion.
I'm new to this thread, but I was a swim coach for six years (high school boys) and happy to play!
I agree with you that your breathing is what I'd want to look at here. I think a minor adjustment could help both with the core crunch that you identified and your slightly lower legs that Monty noted (that is, you're not quite horizontal in the water -- your legs are lower than your upper body so the energy from your kick goes partly to moving 'up' not just forward).
The relevant video sections to see your head position are seconds 1-3 and 14-22 in the clip you shared (watched at 1/4 speed). When you're not in the last stroke approaching the walll, you're tending to breathe with your head at a slight angle. As you turn your head to breathe, you want to turn your whole head evenly so that half of your face is out of the water (think: one eye in, one eye out). Instead, you're raising your mouth out of the water and slightly lowering the top of your head into the water to get your mouth out. You can see this most clearly around seconds 17-18. Since your chin is slightly lowered, you're ending up sinking your legs a bit to compensate (as Monty noticed) so it's having a mild impact on your whole form.
Once you approach the wall and need to lift your head to see the wall, your breathing form gets nicer. Your form 2 seconds in when you're taking your last breath as you approach the wall is really nice (and you can get a hint of the breath you took right before the video started where your head was further down).
So what to do about this? Here are some approaches:
As you swim, think about breathing directly to the side as if your whole upper body is on a rod that goes down from the top of your head down through your spine. You can't drop your chin because you're attached to this rod.
Drill: Practice swimming while looking more forward than entirely down. Think about trying to keep the water line at the line of your cap on your forehead. This will help you keep your chin up. The key is to keep your neck RELAXED while doing this. If you tense your shoulders, you'll drop your legs. If you don't, they'll stay up and happy.
Think about breathing in front of your shoulder rather than under it.
Drill: Breathe only to your left side. While practicing both sides is good in general, it's also a nice way to practice the above without fighting the ingrained habits you already have on your right side.
I look forward to reading what others see. Happy swimming!
Hey, fellow newbie. I'm with you in being much longer on here reading than posting. Swimming, though -- let's talk!
The two things I'd suggest you focus on (and they're related) are your hips and your kick, especially your right leg. I'm really liking your upper-body underwater pull form.
For a good example of what's up with your right leg, check out its position at second 15 in the clip you shared. Here, you can see that your right knee and right ankle are both pretty noticeably bend. While a gentle bend is normal (think: my leg is a slightly wobbly pencil when I kick, mostly straight with some give; see also: your left leg in the video), your right leg has decided that it's really rather you kick from your knee than your hip so it should just bend your knee a lot to accomplish that. It does this a little bit all the time but a lot on strokes when you breathe to the right.
What this seems to be doing to your form is making your hips do a lot more work to keep in position -- they're staying pretty tense -- and making you move side-to-side some in the water rather than just forward (when you bend your knee, you're also crunching your upper body towards that side to balance it out). So it's a fairly minor issue that's causing some other things in your stroke.
What to do about it?
Watch your video back and check out the kick form of your left leg. This is where you want to end up with your right leg.
Think about keeping your lower body relaxed as you breathe. Especially relax your butt. (I know this sounds weird, but it's also something that helps the 80% of swimmers who are swimming with too-tight hips.)
Drill: Practice breathing to the right with different kick speeds (e.g., kicking 6 beats every stroke vs. 2). My guess is that your right knee won't have time to bend/wander off track quite as much with a faster kick. Note: This is for the occasional drill to get it on track; your kick speed as is works for distance stuff.
Drill: Just get some kicking time in with a kickboard. Focus especially on the right leg staying connected to the right hip (the aforementioned wobbly pencil) so that you're kicking from your hips (powerful) rather than your knees (way less powerful). The key here is that your hips need to stay relaxed. That is, they shouldn't feel like they're 'working' extra hard to stay attached to your legs. They'll stay attached so can just relax and kick. This will help your leg get happier with its form without having to also navigate breathing at the same time.
Thanks for sharing the video! Fun times for us coaches out there.
Two things I'd want to look at (both eminently fixable) are your breathing and your hands' entry into the water.
On breathing, your head is moving around a bit more underwater before/after breaths than you want it to. The ideal is of course step 1: turn head to the side out of water, step 2: turn head to the side back into water. Your head wants to be more involved so has decided to break step 2 into multiple steps: turn head into water slightly past neutral with chin lowered then return head to neutral then lift chin slightly to get it in position for the next stroke. You can see this well around seconds 34-39 in the clip you shared.
The goal here is to have your head go back into the water right where you want it every stroke rather than overshooting in rotation and chin tuck. Some approaches:
Drill: Imagine your head can only turn one direction: to the right. It can't turn left of neutral and your chin can't go up or down. Try swimming like this and see what feels different. Make adjustments as needed. (Example: Your chin really wants to lift up before every stroke? Great: That's the new angle that your chin is allowed underwater.)
Think about keeping your neck and head relaxed as your body rotates. You can turn this into a drill by practicing exaggerated body rotation while your head stays in place. This will help you not turn your head past neutral as it reenters the water because it reminds your form that your head is being aided by your body's rotation to breathe but isn't part of it.
Be mindful for a couple hundred of what your head is doing. Try focusing on a couple of different parts (what's my forehead doing? what's my chin doing?) so you can identify where you're immediately reversing something you just did and adjust away from that.
On your hands' entry into the water, you're entering a bit wide then bringing your hands to the entry position you want when they're already underwater. See, for example, seconds 52 to 56 in what you attached. Aim to have your hands enter more in 'directly ahead of your shoulders' range or even directly ahead of your ear by a foot or so (right ear for right hand, left for left). Basically, think about them entering the water at 11:30 and 12:30 at a clock rather than entering at 10:30 and 1:30 and needing to move underwater to where they want to be.
A good drill for this is the fingertip drag drill, where you drag your thumb up the side of your body on the recovery of each stroke. This helps people practice bending their elbows on the recovery, but it also helps put your arm on the direct line where you want it to enter (i.e., it'll pass your shoulder then enter a ways in front of it) so it gets the feel of the new entry point. Just watching where your hands enter as you swim can also go a long way on this one.
Overall, I like your stroke. I look forward to what others think and wish you the best in practice!
i don't see anything glaringly wrong. i would think if you deployed that stroke swimming with a kick arse master's team x 4 days a week x 6 months you'd see massive improvement.
Much appreciated. Now assuming the aren't any kick rase masters team around my area and I am already outswimming everyone in my local tri club, how do I go about structuring my workouts? I've spent a lot of time on the technique and it seems it is time that now is the time to focus more on actual swimming. Currently my workouts are aimless. I am focused on my stroke, but am basically just stringing together random intervals at mixed paces so I feel challenged. Can you or anyone else recommend a coach who could provide a plan so I can get to work?
Many thanks to the coaches and people (not that coaches aren't people) offering feedback. I haven't seen myself swim in years, but any feedback would be welcome.
There are a few segments where I am doing a hybrid 2-beat kick (one kick per stroke, and 3 kicks when I breathe to the side), others is a 6 beat. The time difference for me between the two is negligible for anything longer than a 200.
One of the things I noticed was my left arm tends to push the water down, rather than going vertical right away and pushing back. Left arm pulls tight recovering above water, right arm swings wide. Not sure how that affects underwater dynamics.
