Brooks Pureflow. 4mm drop, lots of padding, good amount of room in toe area.

Altra Escalante?

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...s_new_shoe_P6230462/

http://www.runnersworld.com/...look-altra-escalante

https://www.altrarunning.com/...altra%20%2Bescalante

I have a pair purely for recovery from a recent PRP injection to my plantar fascia, and can attest to the wide toe box, zero drop and soft feel.

Scott

Altra Escalante. This might be the shoe where I end up buying five pairs and not shoe shopping for a few years.

Saucony Kinvara

Not a racing flat but not hugely padded either.

Just enough cushion to make them usable all the way up to the marathon but still with pretty good "feel" for the pavement.

I find the toe box to be very generous.

4 mm drop.

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Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

Topo ST-2

What are the disc/nerve issues ?

I was super worried about running at all with my lower back issues but find it isn't so bad on pavement.

The Skechers GOrun 5 has a 4mm drop, 18mm at the heel. I don't know how wide the toebox is on the current version, as they seem to change a little with each version. I have very wide feet (4E), and the 1 and 3 fit me perfectly, while the 2 was slightly narrow. At least based on the photos, the 5 looks like it might be about the same as the 2 was...

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

5mm drop but looks interesting. I'm thinking of picking up a pair.......

https://www.salming.com/...-green/c-756/p-31378

Team sponsor, but looks nice and the current model I have is awesome.

I use Merrell Bare Access 4 for all my running.
They're extremely light, zero drop, several millimeters of cushioning but still reasonable road feel.
I have very wide feet, pretty high volume. I have to buy most shoes a size too big in order to have enough width and volume but in the Merrells I can actually wear the right size (not true for all Merrells but it is for the original Trail Glove in wide fit and Bare Access which only come in a standard but still work).
These don't seem to be very popular but I love them and have run half marathons and IM in them.

+1 Brooks Pureflow. 4mm drop, pretty light. Purecadence if you need a bit of support.

I second the Saucony Kinvara.

The Kinvara 8 just came out, so you can find the 7s around on clearance. 4mm drop, generous toe box and its plenty light for both a race and training shoe.

Thanks for this. I believe the Merrells have a pretty high arch. I should add that one of my other peculiar requirements is flatter arch zone.

A few suggested Kinvara, but I think I need something that is more firm and less of a pillow. I have plenty of other pillow style running mittens in basement. I'll eventually get well enough to use shoes. I think the Alta Escalante will kind of fit into that same category though. Maybe too much sole between ball of foot and the ground? Can someone compare the Brooks Pureflow to some of the older models of the PureConnect. I have a set of 2012 PureConnects that still feel a bit soft and "tippy" relative to the ground contact.

The closer I can get to 6 ounce the better. The "swing weight" of the shoe makes a difference since my doriflex on the recovery phase is still a work in progress.

I've been using pureflows for about 5 years now. I did try the pure connects, and I think they felt a bit narrower.

As for padding, I'd say the pureflows are just as padded, or more padded, than the connects. To me thats a good thing, and they are still fairly light. But if you are looking for -less- padding than connects, then maybe pureflows aren't for you.

A "Firm Kinvara" you could find in the Saucony Grid Type A series. I still have the Type A4 and it's been a phenomenal shoe. Light, firm and springy, wide forefoot and sockless comfort is a bonus. I see now that Runningwarehouse has newer models on sale, too!

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

I'll also throw out the Kinvara (7 anyway, not sure about the 8). I've seen a few people mention Pureflow, I had a horrible experience with the 5, the insole had grooves underneath that in some way allowed the space between the ball of my right foot and big toes to squeeze and rub into, just mutilated my foot. If you look into the Pure, check the insole first and replace if it's the grooved type.

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The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

What stack height range are you looking for? You are apparently my foot twin, and it is quite difficult to find shoes that are wide, low stack, and not just a solid sheet of rubber or overly stiff in the sole (Vivobarefoot, New Balance MT10, New Balance MX20, Inov-8 F-Lite, etc.).

There seem to be plenty of foam+rubber soles in the 18-26mm stack height range, but few in the more minimal 10-16mm range. The old New Balance MR00 in wide was perfect for this, but is discontinued. I'm in the process of trying on a bunch of shoes now. So far the only ones I've found that feel about right are sadly the Vibram Fivefinger V-run shoes (10mm stack). I only wish they didn't look ridiculous. I have a pair of Topo ST2's on their way, which I'm hoping will work, probably with the insole removed (11mm stack) or still in (16mm stack). Another possible shoe would be the Inov-8 Road Talon 240, as they come in their "Standard" fit which seems to be about a 2e (their precision fit is a D width) although they are a bit heavier (8.4oz) and moderate stack (16mm heel, 4mm drop).

hi dev -

count me as one more who's been fairly happy with the kinvaras - i've done 3 pair now. found one pair at winners in toronto for about $35!

they're not flats, but definitely light and 4mm drop. i raced a PB in the half marathon in kinvaras, though i'm not sure they'd work at full marathon for me.

good luck and welcome back to the road -

-mike

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

The PureFlow 4 was a great shoe - I ran my marathon and 50km PBs in them.

You're right about the 5s though, an absolute disaster.

I have more or less same requirements and after trying several options throughout the last 2 years, I have settled on NB in wide sizes. Both the Zante V2 and Vazee pace V2 in wides sizes work well for me. Better than anything else i have tried incl pure flow, pure cadence, kinvara, merrell's bare access 4 and lots of others. Good luck!

tessar wrote:

A "Firm Kinvara" you could find in the Saucony Grid Type A series. I still have the Type A4 and it's been a phenomenal shoe. Light, firm and springy, wide forefoot and sockless comfort is a bonus. I see now that Runningwarehouse has newer models on sale, too!

Tessar, I was looking at the TypeA because I thought they would be perfect based on my current needs HOWEVER I was told they tend to fit narrow. But you say they are wide. I am willing to give this a try. The more firm the contact with the ground the better for me now. Eventually the feeling will come back in the foot that I can run with more "pillow/mitten" shoes, but that time is not now. Can you confirm if these are as wide as say a Newton Distance or a Brooks Pure Connect, any any of the New Balance in EE?

One thing I should add to this thread. Right now, I have better coordination of my foot if I insert a set of Correct Toes to spread my metatarsels apart, so I need pace for that to add to the flipper nature of my flattish feet!!!

https://www.correcttoes.com/

Basically the correct toes have a vibrams LIKE effect by spreading the toes inside the shoes. So when I run in the NewBalance Minimus Trail, with correct toes, its like running with marginally more padding than Vibrams, but similar feel. I want to keep that feel as I move "slightly more padding"

If you are lucky mayby you can find some of the (discontinued) Minimus 10 Road, or the Minimus 00. My all time favourite running shoe (if you have my size you will have trouble finding pairs I haven't allready snagged ...)
I am currently trying to replace that very shoe, and use Mizuno Ekiden (6mm drop, kind of spongy in comparison (to truly direct shoes - still counts as a racing flat), but still quite pleasant, and Sacony Endorphin Racer II, which however does not have a wide toe box (the Ekiden is not as wide as your NBs, but not really narrow either).

My feet are relatively wide but low-volume (IE, flat). The Type A fits me snug around the heel and rear foot, but fairly broad at the front - no toe constriction. I wear the same size in Newton, Saucony and Brooks and the Type A is at least as wide in the forefoot as the Newton Distance and Elite (if not a bit wider) and definitely wider than the Brooks Launch (can't compare to the Pure, since I last ran in a first-gen Grit and hated it). For the price RW is selling them now it's worth a try I'd say.

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

I'm not sure if the newest version of the Type A is wider than the previous A6, but I race in the A6 and I can tell you it's nowhere near as wide in the toe box as the New Balance Minimus Trail in a standard width nevermind 2E. I have a bunch of NB shoes (Minimus Road & Trail, various versions of Zante & Vazee Pace) in standard width and they are all wider in the forefoot than my A6's. Again, maybe Saucony made the newest version wider but it doesn't appear so from the pics I've seen. Not trying to be argumentative just sharing my experience.

Fair enough, I spent most of my time in the Type A4. Haven't run much in the A6.

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

Hey Dev--

Glad to see you at least being able to get out a little bit.

You've got a whole bunch of conundrums coming together on this one. I would probably steer clear of the PureFlow as it is spongier than the Connect, although a little more stable due to not having as much arch cut out under the midfoot.

I would probably steer you more towards:

Altra Escalante
New Balance 1400 (narrow midfoot, wider forefoot, ignore the drop; they feel much flatter than the published 10mm)
Saucony Endorphin Racer looks super interesting, especially with the Everun material in it

Keep plugging away!

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

I just got a pair of these, and with the insoles removed, they are roomy (width and height), 0 drop, and 11mm stack of mostly cushy foam with just enough rubber to keep them from wearing down fast. You can definitely feel the ground through them, and they are light and comfortable. I think I found my wide-low-flat unicorn shoes again (I still miss the New Balance MR00 though).

This looks awesome. The Canadian distributor unfortunately is out of stock!!!!!

OK I found this show on Amazon.ca. I can get it for $46 CDN with ~ $6 shipping in size 10.5 and $150ish with $4 shipping for size 10. How close does this fit to your normal size. I am best in a size 10 with my flipper feet. I could go with a size 10.5 if you say that they fit tight, but I'm better off spending the extra $110 on the proper fit....but need to know how these fit.

Mine fit "true to size" for an 8.5. Definitely not tight.

i realise this is not exactly the direction you are looking at, but based on your specs it seems to meet the intended goal very well:
https://www.inov-8.com/...-running-shoes-black
this shoe is made for fell running, but in order to achieve that it is very light, relatively flat has very flexible upper material that accommodates wide forefeet like mine (if you buy the size to accommodate for it) and last but not least the super flexible and "sticky" 8mm studs provide the right amount of cushion you need to run on the road with them (even though that is not their intended purpose) and they also last a lot longer then what you might think they do even if you just run on tarmac as i mostly do ...

(i have no affiliation with innov8 whatsoever )

Will you consider Vivobarefoot Stealth or Primus? Wide toebox, zero drop, however it has no midsole similar to Vibrams.

I have a pair of vivo stealths. You are right about the fit, but they are a very hard shoe. Structurally they are a 3-5mm sheet of rubber as the outsold and a 3mm hard foam insole. That's it. There is no intervening midsole. For me, after using them for a few months, I still dislike them quite a bit. No injuries, but my legs ache after a few miles on every run since there is no spring in these. Instead, I feel like my foot is slapping the ground no matter how my foot falls (they are the only shoe I can hear even if I have headphones in).

While some Vibrams are similarly built, the v-run (the only shoe they recommend for road running) does have a 4mm foam midsole to provide some padding.

Given that the OP said:
I'm guessing these wouldn't go over well either. Trail shoes rarely transfer well to the road because they aren't designed for it. They have to be firm enough to deflect sharp protrusions (rocks, etc.) and grippy enough to prevent slipping. Neither of those aspects work well for a road shoe that needs just a tiny amount of grip and very little protection. Trail shoes also tend to be significantly heavier because of the more solid build.

I too have a pair of New Balance MT10v3's (trail shoes) that are tolerable on the road but nowhere near as pleasant as the MR00. They are overly firm, overly heavy, and don't give consistent road feel depending on whether you land on a lug or not (and which lug or lugs at that). I used them when I was living in Europe for a few months because I had limited packing room and they were all black and adequate for light day hiking. I ended up picking running routes that were at least half trail running, and the shoe honestly felt better in the dirt and rocks than it did on the pavement.

I just bought a pair of Escalantes today on the back of this thread.
They run true to size with Nike and Mizuno for me.
The jury is out after a fairly mundane easy (7:10 pace) 10k earlier.

They feel completely different to anything I've ran in before. They have the lightness and liveliness of my lunar tempos which I like. They seem to work my arch and first ray much harder than anything I'm used to. My ankle feels like it's working a bit hard for stability too.

I think I like them but there is a lot of confirmation bias there, as I want to like then and put a lot of money out on them. I definitely won't be using them for long steady runs though, my vomeros seem much better suited to that.

I'm around Dev's age, and though I like the fit of the Escalantes a lot, they take some getting used to. In particular, I'm noticing tighter calves after moderate runs, but that's probably due to less drop than the Clifton 3s I've been running in.

Ian

If the Escalante is too much bounce, you could try the One2, also from Altra and definitely more responsive. Plus they're quite easy to find cheap.

Just to add to this I'm a few runs in on these and really starting to like them. They start feeling "right" around 6:30/m pace and really sing below 6. Feel like a hybrid between a racing flat and lunar tempo. I think I'm going to save them for tempo runs, half and full marathon races. Which is exactly what I wanted from them.

Just ordered a pair from Amazon.ca from a seller in Taiwan for $69 CDN plus ~$2 shipping

Order #701-0314921-3607448
Placed on Sunday, March 26, 2017Topo Athletic ST2 Running Shoe - Men's Grey/Black 10
Misc.
Sold by Jennifeny
Condition: New

It sounds like you have similar feet to me. I am ~2E width, however mine stay quite wide through the midfoot, which makes things even more difficult.

I have almost come to the conclusion that the shoe I want doesn't exist. Previously, I had good success with the Grid Type A5 sized up 1/2 size. Then they went and ruined it with the A6.

I currently run in NB Zante 2E which are good for most things (tempo runs, 10k, half). I managed to run a decent half in them recently, but I do not think they are minimal or responsive enough for track work and fast 5k's. I tried the Vazee Pace in 2E which I didn't get on with.

What I would give for a light, wide, 4mm drop shoe with a reasonable liner for transitions...

It seems quite difficult to get topo in the UK.

You might want to take a look at the Nike Zoom Streak LT.
1. 4mm drop
2. Almost Altra Shaped toe -
3. The tongue is attached with a webbing. To get the shoe on faster and create more room cut the webbing out. I did with no issues.

Other than that it's simple, with great balance and smooth ride.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

Did you try the topo link I sent. The seller is shipping out of Taiwan to me in Canada....I'd imagine the same seller can to UK....having said that my target delivery date is till 3 weeks away, so could be many weeks yet!

Try the Altra Torin, too. A little softer feel than the escalante and tons of room in the toe box for wide feet and bunions.

I finally got a chance to go for a run in the Topo ST2 and the verdict is I really like them! They are very similar in feel to the New Balance MR00 that I loved, although the foam seems a bit softer (it is hard to remember what my last pair of MR00 felt like when I started running in them and before the foam really started to break down). They are a nice true 0mm drop, very thin, but very soft on the landing. They run basically silent with a good mid-foot strike, and I'd describe them like running on very tiny clouds. Ground feel is good but not harsh at all as it is in something like a Vivobarefoot. I had one blister on the inside of my left mid-foot near the front of my arch, but I ran at my normal pace, sockless, for 5 miles after 2 weeks off (sick + knee tendonitis). I think a bit of tape on my foot or the inside of the shoe should fix the rubbing, or just a bit more time in them.

Now, a couple caveats. I removed the insoles (they are just slip ins). They are firm, but also reasonably thick, about 5mm according to Topo. This made the shoe much roomier which I tend to need with a lot of shoes that have a wide toe box, but otherwise aren't really a 2e width. I apparently have a high volume mid-foot as a result of the combination of the taper from my duck flipper like fore-foot and a pretty flat arch. With the insole in, they felt a bit snug around the mid-foot, but I had planned on removing the insole anyway to drop them down to an 11mm stack height.

The shoes aren't really designed to be run with no insole as they have exposed stitching and a foam footbed underneath the insole, so I made an attempt at my own ultrathin insole using a couple strips of Kinesio tape. I trimmed the tape at the toe and heel to approximate the shape, cut it a bit shorter than the total length of the shoe to accomodate the stretching and put it in VERY carefully. Like applying KT tape on skin, I first split the backing about 1" from the toe of the strip and folded back the edges of the backing to make them easier to grab. I then got the strip into is starting position where the tape would cover the stitching near the toe (remove the laces to open up the tongue fully). Peel off the 1" section and lay that part down to start the tape. Then reach under the tape, and start to pull back the backing to expose more tape. I applied light stretch (20% or so) and shaped the tape as I went to keep it running along the contour of the footbed, always making sure to cover the exposed stitching. It took a few minutes to carefully get it all in and pressed down, but I ended up with basically no wrinkles, and total cost is probably $1. If it doesn't hold up over the long term, I'll buy some cheap and super thin foam insoles and throw those in instead.

Without the insole, the heel is a bit wide for me. I was worried about it chafing, but it was actually completely fine with no blistering at all there. I did play with a bunch of alternative lacing patterns to see what tightened the heel the best and ended up just lacing through the extra upper eyelet instead of the normal lower last eyelet. The has the laces coming up and over the outside of the shoe at the front of my ankle and locks the shoe onto my heel pretty well. The shoes have no heel counter (the heel is foldable), which might be part of why they feel loose in the heel, but also why they don't rub on my heel even if they aren't overly snug.

I think I may have finally found my new unicorn shoe! Hope they work out for you as well.

I have another option for you that I found (and kept) in my somewhat extensive searching for shoes. But they come with a warning: They are firmer than the Topo ST2 and much, much, uglier!

The Vibram FiveFinger V-run

This is actually the color I bought them in. My hope is that they are so blinding that people won't look long enough to notice that they are toe shoes. I'm embarrassed just owning these, but they do run quite nice. They are ridiculously light (5oz), fit nice and wide in the forefoot and midfoot, and firm but not harsh on the road (2.5mm sections of rubber, 6+mm of EVA midsole/insole). I found them much softer on the road than the Vivobarefoot Stealth, which always slapped the ground loudly on every footfall, but not quite as soft as the New Balance MR00. I'd say they feel almost as firm as the NewBalance MT10, but somehow also less harsh, probably because the sole is smoother and designed for pavement. My first run in them wasn't particularly fast given the low weight, but I felt like I was very aware throughout of how my foot was moving and where I was landing. The shoes gently reminded me any time I wasn't midfoot striking or started to roll toward the inside or outside of my foot.

Since you like to compare shoes to mittens, these are more like a thin woven glove with a tiny bit of padding in the palm. Perhaps worth a shot if the Topo don't work for you, or if like me, you want a couple different pairs to rotate through. You might just have to go running at night so nobody can see how ridiculous they look.

Hey I am already ridiculous anyway, and if these actually rude softer than NB Minimum trail then I will order a pair too. I have a couple of vibram models which I will post (I believe KSO and Bekele) which are way harsh on road. I only use them on grass or treadmill. I even find them too harsh for the track

I have a pair of these and love them for their purpose BUT they are basically a racing flat, no?

Fantastically quick, light and responsive but they rattle me to pieces particularly over 10ks. I don't have the guts to run a HM in them. Ironically that's why I bought the altra escalantes

My bones, joints and tendons ache after racing them. One would need an awesome stride to be training in them over distance IMHO.

I also tried a pair of KMD Evo and didn't like them as soon as I tried them on (didn't try going for a run). They definitely felt quite harsh, which isn't surprising since they are a training shoe. I had higher hopes for them because they are actually more padded than the V-run, but the padding is much firmer and so they felt "dead" but also harsh... not a good combination. The upper on these also have a heavy knit that felt really thick and would probably be too warm for most running.