Well, polls aren't really something to hang your hat on, particularly when no one is running for anything right now.

That said, I believe it. I think people were worried about the spending that Bernie might go on and that scared them off in his race against Clinton. However, based on Trump's proposals with Trumpcare and the increase in military spending, people might be thinking if the spending is going to continue out of control anyways, might as well have someone sane in the Whitehouse :)

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

You can't take someone seriously when they say one thing and live their life in the complete opposite fashion. He's hypocritical garbage.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

I totally agree! I'd like and respect Sanders more if he lived in some trailer park, donated all his money to charity and just ate rice and tuna every day, walked to Washington in sandals, and always flew coach. However, if he did that, everyone would say he has some kind of mental problem. He can't win. Seriously, do you expect some 78 year old to live like some 28 year old hippy? Give me a break.

What I think is interesting is Bernie wanted to make all of these free programs like college and the millennials were loving it as they thought it would just pay for itself and it didn't effect them.

You mean like bashing rich people for not paying "their" fair share of income taxes?

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All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

Team Zoot, Team Zoot Mid-Atlantic

I might vote favorable for Bernie because he has found his happy place and knows how to play the useful idiots. So I gotta give he guy come creds.

I don't think any sane person is saying that he needs to live like that.

I think sane people are saying he loses a lot of credibility when he buys a THIRD home worth over $600,000 and just got done running a campaign saying that the rich people should be paying their fair share when it comes out that he pays taxes at a rate of 13%.

It's hypocritical politics 101.

I think if people really understood where his donations come from and how he arrives at his "average donation of $27". Even hit pieces that debunk this claim totally miss the point.

Their average comes about almost entirely form the fact that he gets a huge (multi-million dollar) donation from a union and they just divide that by the number of dues paying members.

The idea that Bernie is somehow different form any other pol is ludicrous. In fact he's one of the worst. He's either a disingenuous lying sack of socialist shit or (possibly even worse) he really believes his own rhetoric and is therefore a lunatic.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

The guy has been making high six figures for decades, and his wife has a good job, too; you expect him to live like a pauper?

People seem to think that if an individual doesn't donate their money to the IRS above and beyond what is called for by law, they are a hypocrite if they think tax rates are too low for the wealthy. That's bullshit. Even if Rand Paul says it.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

wait a minute Ken. Aren't you one of the people screaming for tax returns from our current President. And screaming because he isn't paying enough when he takes advantage of the same loopholes?

Like others have said. On your tax return, you can make a donation to the government. Why wouldn't somebody who calls for government to pay for many, many things, make an extra payment so the government can pay for those things?

Seems like a real disconnect somewhere in there.

These are my two favorite Bernie tweets. Such a hypocrite.

https://twitter.com/...s/683370855800385536

The disconnect is on your end. As innumerable people have pointed out, the reason for wanting his tax returns (and other business-related financial information) is to reveal the inherent conflict of interest issues he has. Pretty sure that Bernie doesn't have anywhere close to those issues as does Trump.

Sanders deducted mortgage interest, property tax, charitable contributions (not to his own Foundation, most likely), and a few other things to reduce his taxable income.

Donating some of your income to excess tax is not the issue. Such sums are trivial compared to the built-in tax evasion in our system.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Sanders deducted mortgage interest, property tax, charitable contributions (not to his own Foundation, most likely), and a few other things to reduce his taxable income.



He had to have deducted a hell of a lot more than that to get to as low of an effective tax rate as he did.

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I miss YaHey

Okay. I get that, but that's not really what I am saying is hypocritical either.

I am saying the somebody who ran a campaign based on making people who make 6 figures or more pay their fair share. Someone who was touting programs for free stuff that would require the government to drastically increase taxes. Someone who claims they were for the people, and understood the common problems of the people. Yet he, like you said, has made 6 figures for close to 2 decades (all on the taxpayers backs) and owns 3 houses and still pays a tax rate that is within 1 or 2 points of what I pay while making far, far less than 6 figures.

Do you not see the hypocrisy in all of this???

Use you Google skills and you can actually find the referenced return. Then do your own analysis. I'm pretty sure it was a normal return.

(hint: he deducted $22,000 in mortgage interest alone)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

No, I don't see the hypocrisy. I see a broken system. He's complying with the system just as you and I are.

If you had the cash to buy three houses, and the income to support multiple mortgages and property tax payments, your effective tax rate would be lower, too.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

He just wanted a change in priorities. I enjoyed cheap college. When I started college in 1979 I paid $4/semester hour at an excellent state university. There were other fees but I paid less for a full load of classes at a university than my step-daughter paid to take a single class at community college even after inflation.
We used to invest in our future; we we thought we would need more college graduates in the future so the federal government showered universities with money.
Then a new sheriff rode into town. Ronald Reagan said that tax cuts and deregulation were the most important things. The top marginal tax bracket was lowered from 70% to 28%. He promised if we just got the government off the back of the wealthy and businesses that the economy would boom and everyone would benefit because a rising tide lifts all ships. All this money that the wealthy and business kept would trickle down to everyone. Money to universities was slashed, money to build and improve infrastructure was slashed, Reagan demonized the poor and thought they just needed tough love; if we made being poor worse they would learn their lesson and work hard to stop being poor so social programs were slashed. Our war on poverty became a war on the poor. After 40 years of trickle down economics our debt has soared (Reagan alone added twice as much to our debt as all the presidents before him), our infrastructure is crumbling with bridges that fall and power grid based on century old technology that wastes 10% of our electricity. Oddly we are still waiting for all that money to trickle down. Americans are working longer, harder, and are more productive than ever but wages for everyone except the top percentile have been stagnant or declining.
Bernie isn't asking for anything radical. He isn't even suggesting returning to the level of socialism we had under Nixon and Eisenhower. He just wanted the only people who actually benefited from decades of supply side economics at the expense of everyone else to pay a little more so more of us can get ahead.

rotflmfao

Aren't you one of the people screaming for tax returns from our current President. And screaming because he isn't paying enough when he takes advantage of the same loopholes?

Most people aren't complaining about his rate of tax, they are complaining about the lack of disclosure to where he has properties and bank loans. Those are things that create the potential for conflict of interest. If the tax returns don't disclose the details, why not just come out and tell people who he is indeted to, who is responsible for approving permit applications in foreign countries etc. It's not that difficult.

Bernie (apparently) followed the law in paying his taxes. The fact that he paid a lower rate than some others is a problem (if one considers it a problem) with tax law, not Bernie.

Bernie followed the law, as did Trmp, Obama, Bush, Romney...but not Tim Geithner.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Wasn't the knock against Sanders' record that he basically got none of his agenda passed?

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

You aren't getting it Ken. I have no problems with him using the system just like everybody else.

I have problems with him living a lifestyle and using a system that is completely the opposite of what he campaigned for and what so many millions of people idolize him as. He is no different than Trump when it comes to claiming to be working for the poor people. That is my point.

I see that as a positive.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Mostly. But then it probably isn't fair to criticize him as part of the "same old ideas in Congress" crowd. He's been against the grain in just about every conceivable way.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Well since we're conducting an analysis of a flippantly posted meme I found on the internet I'll attempt to defend it this way.

Old idea - socialism. Failed every time it's been tried. Bernie has been in congress for twenty three years and hasn't "gotten anything done" because even that den of thieves knows his socialist agenda is a non-starter.

Also, his presence in congress for a couple decades nullifies his claim of outsider status.

I know, it's a weak defense but memes aren't really known for intellectual integrity.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

That's a myth, or a misunderstanding. Sanders accomplished quite a bit through expert use of amendments. People look at the number of bills he [co-]sponsored and think he didn't do anything: they are wrong.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

So he was good at adding pork to spending bills.

Yup, he sure wasn't like any other politician. A real outsider.

23 years of pork bill spending. What a rebel!

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Didn't you vote for the Bern?

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Yes. CA is an "open primary state" for the Dems. That means you can vote in the Dem primary no matter what your registration is (you just have to request a Dem ballot). I am registered without party affiliation so I vote in the Dem primaries (the Republican Party does not allow this).

I voted for Bernie, as did (i believe) most California porimary voters did and it California was stolen by Clinton.

I think any sort of half assed look into this last election will uncover massive voter fraud here in california.

Keep in mind Trump's claim of "millions of illegal votes" is always laughed off by saying there's no way "millions of people" voted illegally.

Millions of votes and millions of people voting are two different things. We've had districts here where many more votes were cast that there are registered voters. Back when absentee ballots were heavily republican leaning our own county "lost" a huge percentage of absentee ballots during a very heated congressional election. Those ballots never got counted and the dem won by a very slim margin.

My FIL worked at a polling place. He encountered multiple people coming in to vote multiple times. They were all given "provisional ballots" on their second, third and fourth rounds of voting.

Bernie got robbed.

BTW, my vote for Bernie was just to help buoy him so Hillary would have to spend more money.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

So you're a socialist who hates socialism. No wonder you're going to therapy.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Um. No.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

It's ok to be fucked up.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

He's a great guy alright. Look at his utopia.

http://www.miamiherald.com/...rticle138964428.html

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Bernie Sanders passed more bills and amendments than Hillary Clinton and has a long history of working with Republicans. Republicans want smaller government while Bernie wants more effective government. These are not necessarily at odds with each other. Several Republicans who worked with Bernie when he was Mayor of Burlington or when he chaired Veterans Affairs supported Bernie over anyone in the Republican field. Bernie has had lots of positions conservatives could like. He was against the Iraq invasion, he was against the USA Patriot Act and against NSA surveillance programs.

Then why are Democratic Socialist countries like Germany, France, Italy and Scandinavia have more socioeconomic mobility, spend less on health care yet have better outcomes, provide affordable secondary education, etc.

What we have now, crony capitalism, where we privatize wealth and socialize debt is actually the worst of all worlds. A "purer" version of either laissez faire capitalism or of socialism would be a big improvement over what we have now. Our system of high nominal business tax rates with extensive loopholes is basically a way for politicians on both sides of the isle to shake down corporations for campaign contributions.

You somewhat answered your own question.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

You mean you agree with me? I may have to reevaluate my position!

Yes.

Here's where..


I have never said anything here that contradicts what you wrote above.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Man, had this guy been a contender, he would have been tanked. The Clinton campaign has so much crap on him that had he given any fight, he would have been done. He was handled with Kid Gloves. You think Trump would have been as nice? I mean the guy got kicked out of a socialist commune for not pulling his weight in the work that needed to be done, had a honeymoon in the Soviet Union, spoke highly of brutal dictators of the socialist and communist persuasion.

And this is just the stuff a quick google search pulls up.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

There is an old saying, consider the source. You can cherry pick random facts on anyone and make them look like a monster. There is often more to the story. Y'know that Bernie Sanders was mayor of Burlington and traveling to Yaroslavl to establish a sister city in the USSR was an official duty. Yaroslavl is also beautiful and you could do a lot worse choosing a honeymoon spot. Most Cubans were illiterate under Batista and one of the high priorities of Castro was to build schools and educate everyone; lots of people including conservatives have acknowledged Castro's success in this area while condemning his human rights abuses. I haven't heard the story of him being kicked out of a commune. I will have to look that one up.

I'll save you the effort.

http://dailycaller.com/...une-for-not-working/

The idea of him being kicked out of a Hippie Commune is more disturbing to me than the rest. I don't think Castro is the threat to the US others do, and I do happen to believe that Batista was such a corrupt individual that he made Castro possible. But a lot of people in Florida do. No way would Bernie have won Florida. Going to the Soviet Union during the Cold War could be explained as you say, but that goes beyond a 30 second easy to understand sound bite. It is one thing when the mayor of new York goes to the cold war USSR for a sister city. It is really another no big deal when the governor of Texas does that. But when you are an admitted socialist from a blue state who openly talks about how great castro is, and even said good things about Venezuela, it fits a pattern of behavior most people over 60 would see as un-American.

The fact that he has no track record of working or success would hurt him in blue collar states. He may have done better than Hillary, but he is all sizzle, no steak. His solution is handouts. Blatant handouts. Sure, people like getting stuff for free, but not everyone likes "getting a handout". Bernie made no effort to hide that is what he was selling. That doesn't play well with blue collar people who want to work. Trump would have edged him out on that. Both were talking about punishing companies that move oversees, but Bernie was attacking successful individuals to, like most socialist do. That holds more weight when you have been successful and feel others should pull their weight. LBJ was such a person, a very wealthy individual who made not apologies for being rich, but felt he should give back. Bernie is a POS who never held a job, and didn't pull his weight in a commune. Now he want producers to contribute more? Fuck you dude.

Like I said in the first paragraph, there is a pattern with him. Bernie Sanders was a backbencher whose name only crossed the lips of people like my dad who is a very radical leftist until he became popular with college students. But here is the problem. Hillary proved youth turnout Obama saw was an anomaly. I told you this form my own observations as a democratic PC in college). The democrat reliance on the youth is a losing strategy. There was no excitement for him beyond no nothing youth and radical elements in the left. Rational democrats and anybody over 60 would see him for what he is, a radical, whose behavior would have been un-American as recently as 1990. Chris Matthews even pointed out in an interview with DWS how a socialist radical was getting so much acceptance in Kennedy's party. Odd times indeed. He wouldn't have won by a long shot. It would have been Walter Mondale II.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

That happened 46 years ago and people are still holding it against him? Anyone using that as an argument against him needs to be consistent if they use the "that was a long time ago, people change" argument to defend people they do like.

Yes and no. First you have to acknowledge that people are not consistent, and that is why that would hurt anybody. Then you have to consider him vs just anybody. Had this happened 45 years ago it would be different. I was clear it is just one of many things that emerge as a pattern for this guy. An admitted socialist, a guy who has never worked a day in his life for an employer lecturing employers how they should run their companies, a life long elected official, going to cold war soviet union, praising castro and chavez.

None of these alone would be earth shattering, but some of these are decades old, some over decades, and some recent. If it quacks like a duck...

The guy is red. He would not be popular. But knows what else may have been dug up by professional muckrakers. I mean, he may not have paid to watch Russian hookers piss on each other, he may have paid to piss on a Russian hooker fucking his wife (JK), but see what I mean. This is just the stuff that know about. Who knows what we would find out about him under a microscope. And in today's 24 hour news cycle, nobody cares what the real story is if it can't be explained in 30 second sound bites. You don't think Roger Stone who turned political guerilla warfare into an art form couldn't manufacture something that would have been believable to at least some segment that might support Bernie?

Here's a good example. When you think of Richard Gere what do you think? I mean honestly. I'll tell what isn't the first thing to pop in my mind, Officer and a Gentlemen, American Jiggalo (and by association Blondie), and Pretty woman. These were items 2, 3, 4 and 5 respectively that popped in my head. You know what number one is and you and I both know it didn't happen. But you hear something enough, the seed is planted and somebody forever becomes associated with it. First thing I think of with Bernie Sanders is Pinko Commie. Certainly a partisan biased association, but common enough even moderate people associate him with some form of extreme socialism or communism. Whether true or not doesn't matter.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

The Pubs and the Dems are now partnering in an economic destruction two step:

1.) Step #1: regulate critical elements of the economy so awfully that the costs skyrocket in relation to either inflation, population, or GDP growth.
2.) Step #2: once we realize that we've created the out-of-control cost monster in #1 we then socialize all those costs and make it FREE!