What are your current results and history? What are your short term goals? Your total training time and breakdown looks pretty typical of FOP AG athletes and some pro's.

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New Training/Racing Log - http://www.earthdaykid.com/blog --- Old Training/Racing Log - http://colinlaughery.blogspot.com

I've got 4 KQ'd for Kona already for this upcoming year but ymmv from what I do with my athletes.

IMO, it's not about key workouts or the number per week. It's about consistency, managing the training load through out this week, next week and through out all the following weeks.

None of my athletes have that many "key" workouts per week. You actually have more "key" bike workouts then they have total "key" workouts per week.

fwiw I don't think in terms of key workouts, hence the " " around key.

If I were in your shoes I'd find this article, read it and then think about my training:

Intervals, Thresholds, and Long Slow Distance: the Role of Intensity and Duration in Endurance Training.
Stephen Seiler and Espen Tønnessen

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Such a great article.

 
Not so much about "key" sets here or there... but rather weekly Time in Zones and what is the purpose of that week in the grand scheme of things.

And then when in those zones... what is the purpose of that training in the grand scheme of things.


I might use the word "key" for some athletes because they relate with that better... but really 1 day should just be a mixture of the entire week set up and ensure the weekly goal is met. So I know that doesn't help much, but as Desert Dude said, look at the week view.

With your training time, you should be seeing strong fitness and results if you're getting specific

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COROS Sports Science

You've got too much emphasis on key workouts. They are all key. Instead, watch your CTL. Increase it by little bits for 2 to 3 weeks, then drop it off a lot to recover, then keep increasing it again. Most KQ folks tend to peak their CTL around 130 to 140. But that can vary per person. Still, a nice target if you're aiming for something specific and proven.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

Kind of related, but how much should your CTL come down during taper if you're hitting that 130-140 at peak? Thx

Read Brian Stover's post over and commit it to memory.

Like many things people want to know what are the Silver Bullets and the short-cuts - there aren't any!

Consistency is key. Week in week out, almost all year round - that's when after time, you start to feel the real gains.

I've often felt and said that the most important ones are the ones that you drag yourself out the door on those reasonably easy days, when you are not feeling great, and you still log the time/miles. Why? In an Ironman race, after the 2/3 point of the swim you are truly never feeling great from that point on right through until the finish. You are never really fresh and in a somewhat fatigued state for 8+ hours - but you keep going!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

You have some good responses already to move yo in the right direction, bit I'll add one statement to you and in general.

The day athletes (and coaches) stop doing / prescribing three week builds, followed by an easy week, is the day that athletes begin moving to more consistent training and consistent gains.

Cheers,

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

backdoor brag win of the day

backdoor brag win of the day

Why? If you are contending for an AG KQ in some Age Categories you will have to get down close to 9 hours. And for everything right up to close to age 50 you have to be looking at bout 10-hours - so yes it's going to be 8 - 9 hours of racing in a fatigued state beyond the end of the swim. That's not bragging, that's reality! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Care to elaborate?

Schedule in recovery during each week. Ie, not every day is hard/really long. You can do this week in week out without needing a complete 'recovery week'. You will probably also be able to hit the harder sessions harder as you won't be so shelled from having done stuff in the days prior which is harder than an easy pace.

Ah, I see what you mean now. My week usually looks like this:



With my available time and paces, this is about 9-10 hours of training, and I have been accustomed to cutting back every three weeks where I drop to about 7 hours of work.

x2 to what DD has said. That part in bold is along the same lines of what Fleck has been pushing for years. It works, but you have to come up with the formula that works for you week in and week out and can adjust for your life stresses, while keeping the training stresses/life stresses in some kind of manageable equilibrium that allows you to get physiologically stronger over time.

Sure ... the below statement I brought across from a separate thread when I was addressing a similar topic. Almost every athlete I come across has diminishing performance in the 3rd week of a 3 week build then spend a week reducing volume 35-40% ...

*** - "Building" for 3 weeks and taking an easy week is not necessary ... we shouldn't need an entire easy week to recover in a building phase (any phase) by having a 35-40% reduction in load. Most athletes will respond better to 14-17 days of load followed by 2-3 VERY light days (most will function better with the 14 "on" + 2-3 "light") this will take some creative thinking to escape the 7 day cycle ... in a three week build, my experience with most athletes is they have days of zombie training in week 3 just to get to a "recovery week" ... simply doesn't work for most folks. (too much fatigue / too little quality training) If each individual gets there balance of training correct you'll end up with better quality training, higher load over the long term, and that results in better fitness.

In the end our goal as athletes is to generate as much quality training over THE LONG TERM to establish the best fitness as possible ... not create a pile of Zombie training over the short term . ***

If an athlete is strategically scheduled 2 VERY light days every 14'ish days most will not build up massive amounts of load that need 5-7 days to recover from ... the result is higher load over the long term (months). Problem is most athletes do not want to take a truly VERY easy day before they feel they need it. I use a variety of training cycles with my athletes based on age / experience / time of year etc. ... 14-17 days on / 2-4 days VERY EASY ...

Hope that helps ...

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

x2 to what DD has said. That part in bold is along the same lines of what Fleck has been pushing for years. It works, but you have to come up with the formula that works for you week in and week out and can adjust for your life stresses, while keeping the training stresses/life stresses in some kind of manageable equilibrium that allows you to get physiologically stronger over time.


I remember reading I think a Gordo Byrn blog post from a few years back where it was advised that you build a basic week of training, of modest volume, and then you just push repeat, week after week after week after week after . . . Most people will get to 95% or more of their ultimate performance potential on something like this. Viewed at this level . . . this is NOT that complicated.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I know from experience that this is 100% true. I did it for years with success. I would also say that yes, you are not going to get to 100% fitness. I found I would arrive on race day having left a little on the table during training but I had little to no fatigue whatsoever which likely helped me at the end of 140.6.

On the flip side, friends that I know are far more genetically blessed than myself will go hard as fuck in their training and almost always fail to perform at the level they should.

tuesday quality bike + z2 t-run
thursday z2 ride + z2 run, make that a z3 run in the last 8 weeks
sat long ride then t run z2
sunday 60-90 minute ride with some HARD 30 sec efforts, then the long run.

other days some recovery spins and swims

It is really not about "key" sessions, it is about consistency over time.

"Consistency is key. Week in week out, almost all year round - that's when after time, you start to feel the real gains. "

At 9-10h you have no need to cut back except for the most important race of your season

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Echoing everything else that has been said above, I'd also be interested in why you have chosen two VO2 max sessions and no Threshold work? Or are you using 'Tempo' on the bike to mean Threshold (which it seems to when running)?

I think this is like managing your stock portfolio scenario. You can have the completely optimized stock porfolio of the best shot at maximum gains, but with that you run the risk that not all those high growth stocks fire at the same time on the day you have to cash out on the market and liquidate all your stocks and convert to cash....that is basically like race day. MAYBE you hit the optimized training perfectly, the optimized rest perfectly, the optimized nutrition perfectly, the optimized taper, the optimized equipment with no malfunctions, the optimized race day execution with zero errors and everything on all fronts comes together absolutely perfectly.....then you basically have the race of a lifetime, like Bob Beamon's once in a lifetime Mexico City world record long jump.

But mainly that almost never happens so it's about balancing things out to get close to optimum in each area without breaking in any....and let's keep in mind that all of this happens in the context of real world families and jobs which no matter how supportive will suddenly get in the way.....in the context of all that, just like a real world stock portolio, you really have to manage your asset allocation for what is likely an optimized outcome given too many forces outside your control. Optimized outcome is the best we can all aim for, simply because we cannot control all variables, and we have to leave wiggle room to react to the real world on all fronts and not break/implode ourselves when the real world gets in the way of optimized racing performance.

OP here-

Thanks for the input. My IM times have come down each year and I missed KQ by one slot this year. I credit this success to consistency. I'm doing 2 Vo2 workouts right now to build my FTP higher. I did a lot of threshold/tempo work last summer so my FTP seemed to have plateaued. I'll slowly move back into threshold/tempo work as I get closer to my races. I listen to my body and if I'm feeling wiped out I will take an easy day. I never really miss a day. I will always just make my bike/swim/run easy if I feel like I need it even if I have a hard session scheduled.

I have to echo the sentiment about scrapping the "recovery week". I think it is certainly possible to get great results with 3 on and 1 off, but for most AG athletes the vicissitudes of life are such that recovery days are often necessary at very random times during the week.

I have had personal success in following a basic week with 6-8 hours of biking (120-160 miles) 3-4.5 hours of running (20-40 miles) and 3-4 hours of swimming (10-15000) yards. If I look at my training log over the past 6 months, I am achieving this week about 80% of the time. Sometimes I have lower numbers from sickness, work, feeling fatigued etc.

My personal thoughts on each of the disciplines
Run: the key to good triathlon running is fatigue resistance. Improving your aerobic pace through a diet of easy-steady running is the way to do this. Tempo runs at your lactate threshold are also important. Track workouts are merely icing on the cake.

Bike:
stay away from riding the same pace every day.
Vo2 work should be done with caution. However, they can be a great way to boost your FTP. Do intervals of at least 2 minutes in length, preferably 3 or 4 for the best stimulus.
FTP intervals once a week, do in the TT position.
Moderate (2 hour at high end Z2) trainer rides are a good substitute for 4 hour easy rides.
Stay away from coffee rides.

Swim
Be angry at your parents for putting you on a swim team as a kid.
You will never be very good if you did not swim as a kid.
No, 1:15/100 yard pace for a mile swim is not that good.
Check out magnolia masters swim workouts, they are really good and contain a lot of work at the right intensities.

They're all key.

Some believe in a deep taper, other respond better to a shallower taper. Better to measure in terms of TSB. CTL might only come down a relatively small amount in a well timed taper with a deep sustained base and build. But I like about a +25-30% TSB for an "A" race. only 0-5% for a "B" race.

The CTL may come down slightly during both the build in taper. In some cases CTL might peak in a late base or early build period.

if 130-140 includes swimming, I think that's a little light for Elite Amature Ironman athletes. 160-180 will have you better prepared I think. I'd say 130 is the minimum to race well.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Have you considered the ASB and BNZ though?

Could you give an example of 17 day plan please ?

This would probably provide a lot more flexibility and consistency like you mentioned for a lot of people.

Thanks in advance !

Be careful with CTL, it's predicated on a concept that on rather shaky ground at the moment. This point system does not reflect nor scale to our current understanding of human adaptation to the intensity spectrum.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

If you add run 100 CTL to 100 bike CTL are they = to each other? Does it = 200? Could it really = 220? 180?

Does one it cost more to get 1 CTL run vs 1 CTL bike or 1 CTL bike vs 1 CTL run?

Do you get more benefit from 1 run CTL point or 1 bike CTL point?

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I agree and that's actually what I do. I only put that in there to keep my inbox from being jammed by the annoying-as-f*ck 3-1 brat pack. Looks like the pendulum has swung back and the world is ready to drop that junk. You need rest when you need rest. It could be Tuesday because you ran really hard on Monday, or it could be Thursday because you had a stressful day at work on Wednesday.

Somebody asked what your CTL should drop to during taper. It depends. But a good rule of thumb is to reduce load by half 2 weeks out, and then half that again for the last week. That will keep everything moving but also have you bouncing off the walls ready to race. If you're actually excited to do 112 miles on the bike the day before the race, then you're really rested and ready to rock.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

i'll echo BS/DD here: You got more key sessions than my peeps have rides in a week. Right now we're doing run blocks... so we swim 1-3x a week, run 5-8x a week and ride twice a week (roughly). Long ride is done at <50% of critical power and is just a lolly gagging session. About 4 hours (depends on climate) and then one day a week we've got a VO2 session where our lungs end up on the wall opposite our trainer. Total _real_ work time in that sesh is maybe 10-15min.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Hello desert dude and All,


Quoting your reference to Seiler et al ......

"Endurance training involves manipulation of intensity, duration, and frequency of training sessions. The relative impact of short, high-intensity training versus longer, slower distance training has been studied and debated for decades among athletes, coaches, and scientists. Currently, the popularity pendulum has swung towards high-intensity interval training. Many fitness experts, as well as some scientists, now argue that brief, high-intensity interval work is the only form of training necessary for performance optimization. Research on the impact of interval and continuous training with untrained to moderately trained subjects does not support the current interval craze, but the evidence does suggest that short intense training bouts and longer continuous exercise sessions should both be a part of effective endurance training. Elite endurance athletes perform 80 % or more of their training at intensities clearly below their lactate threshold and use high-intensity training surprisingly sparingly. Studies involving intensification of training in already well-trained athletes have shown equivocal results at best. The available evidence suggests that combining large volumes of low-intensity training with careful use of high-intensity interval training throughout the annual training cycle is the best-practice model for development of endurance performance. KEYWORDS: lactate threshold, maximal oxygen uptake, VO[/url]2max, periodization."

And a possible addition of specificity for the interval training portion ..................


https://groups.google.com/...ysiology/M8Ab5o7xCCo

Nathan Townsend excerpt:

"Keep an eye for another study by Seiler's group that should be coming out soon in MSSE. They examined 4x4min, 4x8min, and 4x16min intervals. The 4x16min intervals tended to lead to best improvement in VO2max and pwer at 4mM lactate. So, i don't think it is so simple as just training in such a way as to generate a metabolic mileau that stimluates adaptation, but probably the volume (ie: time) that those conditions are sustained might also be important. So for example, something I've been recommending for years is to conduct interval training sets somewhat similarly as we we do a time trial, ie: go out quite hard and then ease into a target power, rather than always just sitting on a constant power. I think this may also be a reason why these microintervals seem to work well also, it's possible to sustain VO2max (which implies very disturbed intracellular homeostasis) for longer durations than we can for continuous work." [emphasis added]

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

In general ...

- Roll a normal two week block (whatever that is for you)
- Days 15 & 16 are VERY light ... For Example:
** Monday ... Swim --> 1000 easy (broken as 20 x 50, Lots of Band / Buoy or Neoprene Shorts
** Tuesday ... Indoor Trainer @ 30min EASY spin (<50% FTP) ...building cadence to 90 ... +15min EASY transition run (jog) finish with 4 light strides
** Wednesday ... Swim (as normal) ... Run as normal OR for most use "normal" volume but low intensity (AET or <AET)

REALIZE that the next 14 day block starts on that WED (or THURS if Wed is very light) ... so, your next two day easy block sits differently in the week than MON & TUES

IN REFERENCE FOR ABOVE:
A "Normal" M - W might be:
-Monday would be a 2.5-4k swim
-Tuesday might be an easy morning run + evening ride (indoor or out) ... or vice versa
-Wednesday might be 2.5-4k swim + "key" run that includes a specific focus pending time of year

KEY for my script is getting athletes to REALLY back down on day 15 & 16 (at certain key points we'll go VERY easy / short for WED runas well). So few athletes want to script their own 20min of easy swimming and then the 30+15 easy on Tuesday. The value of these CORRECTLY executed 2-3 days done consistently provide massive return in the long haul. .... and those two days done properly my friends are "key workouts"


Hope that helps

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

Nealhe, when I read your post I thought that this thread was gravedigged. I've read that article where Seiler et al compared 4 mins, 8 mins and 16 mins intervals and 8 mins was superior. Threshold is not an optimal place to be. I'll attach the results:

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede

At what % of FTP are those different time work intervals at? Did they make sure to generate the same total 'training load' even though the time was different? I.e lower % of FTP for the longer intervals and higher for the shorter?

Hello mortysct and All,

Thanks for posting .... ..... Nathan Townsend appears to be referring to something newer in the offing?? ....

The reference came up in discussion following this lecture: https://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be

I don't think there was any intention of deceiving .... and I learned a new colloquial forum term ....

grave digger. One who finds out dated threads that are unlocked therfore still live and adds post(s) to them often deceiving other forum members ...

This 2013 study appears to be the one you are referring to .....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21812820

Those look like killer workouts ...

Which workouts of that type do you like?

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

They are not done in % of FTP. They My best guess is ~106% for the eights, ~120 for the fours and ~100 for the 16 min intervals. The point was not to equate training load but session RPE; ie more like we usually train. When we do our quality workouts we dont shoot for a set TSS point, we try to make the best of that session. The instruction was to go as hard as possible over the intervals they were assigned to do.


Nealhe: Thats why I thought this was gravedigging, that study has a few years on its neck already. If Nathan knows about a new, not yet released study that shows superiority for the 4x16 protocol I'm going to be sad: I hate those workouts. For me and my clients, I try to make sure that we get about 30 mins of work above FTP per quality session. Less earlier in the season, at higher intensity. One example is three sets of 5 60"/60" intervals at best possible power, often ~135% FTP. The weeks before a prioritized long course tri I would try to get 5x8 mins at 103-107% FTP with 3-5 mins rest.

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede

IMO 160 - 180 is a huge number to shoot for, what sort of hours would you need to attain this?

I've heard more like 110 is typical for KQ...

Hello mortysct and All,

Nathan sends:

"Hi Neal,

That study is an older one from SJMSS. I'm referring to the newer stuff from MSSE....

Effects of HIT on Physiological and Hormonal Adaptions in Well-Trained Cyclists
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28121800


The Effect of Different High-Intensity Periodization Models on Endurance Adaptations
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27300278


These two papers are from the same study. Note that most recent 2017 paper is a little more nuanced than the 2016 paper, they conduct a mesocycle breakdown and report VO2max etc at 4 and 8 wks, whereas the others only report pre/post.

It's good to include the SJMSS paper here, because when we put all this stuff together, it should become obvious to that there is no magical HIT program that is always the best. We must integrate sound principles of periodisation into any long term training structure. For example, imagine if duration was matched and instead of doing 4x4 min intervals, we did 8x4min intervals or even 16x4min intervals. The recovery was sufficient such that average power is greater in a 16x4min than 4x16min program. In that case, the overall load would now be greater. Would there be a different outcome? I think that question on it's own is sort of moot though. I would expect to see a worse outcome for a headless chook that goes off and smashes 16x4min intervals 2-3x / wk from day 1. However, done correctly, and periodised, a well trained cyclist can build up to that sort of volume and indeed, I've seen elite endurance athletes in top shape conduct similar sorts of sessions.

Something I've long been a critic of, is this idea that we can normalise all training to a single metric representing overall "load" eg: TSS. These studies clearly illustrate that we cannot simply assume that less volume at higher intensity is equivalent to more volume at lower intensity (on performance outcomes), yet the entire world of training load monitoring blindly follows this concept. It's just too vague IMO to be anything more than a rough guide."

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

Neal-good stuff. I think this is why you need to mix things up a bit. Low volume/high intensity, high volume/low intesisty, Vo2 work, tempo, endurance, etc. You really need to train different systems to get more fit. TSS doesn't tell the whole picture. I can tell you right now my weekly volume is lower compared to last year and my overall CTL is lower but I'm more fatigued (not TSB but my body/legs telling me/RPE) than last year. Why? I'm doing more intensity.

About 25 hours a week.

I do the 3 week on / 1 day off rythm and I like it. I recover during the recovering week, not only physically but also mentally and find some time for things I can't do in the other 3 weeks. After all I'm not professional but have family and work. Why should this rythm at once be wrong? And: I do not only recover during the recovery week, I might do 60-70% in time compared to the other weeks.

Concerning the key-sessions, I regard a key session as a planned session which I really should do. If e.g. I feel too tired, or if other circumstances force me to skip some planned training sessions, I start skipping those sessions which are not key sessions. I only skip a keysession if there is no other way. Therefore I indeed think that the threadowner defined too many sessions to be key sessions, generally I define 2 or 3 per week.

For example the next three weeks I have per week 2 key-sessions: Tuesday 4 hours bike 85 % FTP, Wednesday 4 hours bike 75 % FTP. This is always my serious start of the training season, and the key sessions in the last two months before an IM look way more different.
After the three weeks I take indeed a recovery week :-)

Solid post Neal. Great to hear your thoughts and thanks for getting those papers from Nathan. It will be an interesting read.

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede