Saddle is too high.

X2

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Still learning, how do you guys spot that?

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just your average age grouper . no one special . no scientific knowledge . just having fun.

Lots of ways. The easiest is to see your foot at the bottom of the pedal stroke. Then there's the fact that Retul fitters always put the saddle too high, and finally comparing your height/inseam with the saddle height you have listed.

x3. You heels are so high in comparison to the ball of your foot. I would say before you lower it, move your saddle forward, because it looks like you are on the nose anyway. Moving the saddle forward will effectively lowers the saddle height. Also I am not a huge fan of elbows significantly forward of a line up the fork, and it looks like yours are definitely that. Have any photos from the front of the bike?

Arms forward will allow him to get his head down. Minimum pad stack on that frame is like 610mm, so it's the best way to get a faster position without extensive testing.

 

Arms forward will allow him to get his head down. Minimum pad stack on that frame is like 610mm, so it's the best way to get a faster position without extensive testing.[/quote]
Agree, the second photo just screams neck and shoulder tension though, thats why I mentioned it. looks like his upper body is way too tense to hold that position for 5hrs

My ass is 4cm farther back and my elbows 4cm farther forward and I've held it for 12 hours. He'll be fine, as long as he trains, especially since he looks to have way less Ben&Jerry's around the mid section.

Thanks everyone! I was thinking of putting the saddle a bit forward. I actually switched from a siteaero to the ism attack. I was retuled on the siteaero but not finding it that comfy.

In terms of being too high, I'll try to lower a bit and see if I get more power. I know it's a different position, but I ride a 777m (+11m) on my road bike. I used to think I had to be higher on a tri bike but this time I'm lower. Is it because of the steeper angle on my tri bike (e.g. 79-80 degrees)?

Haven't ridden much outdoors so will see how it feels when weather gets nicer. I was having trouble holding the position very long on my indoor trainer and was considering going back to the fitter.

Thanks again!

"I was thinking of putting the saddle a bit forward." i think that's a pretty good idea. try 1cm, then another. no more than that. either 1cm or 2cm.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

he is rocking so much it looks like he is in a canoe in 3' chop

at 5-9 with 32.5 inseam I am at 72cm saddle height with 170 cranks(that makes a difference too) that comes out to 98.9% GTH for me

Is that post retul fit?
Nice to see some morons have gotten hold of the retul system again!

I have a question for you? How do you feel coming off the bike to run? Do you have any injuries to your body? What are your goals for the year? When was your last Retul fit session? Why are you not asking your fitter this question? For us fitting in the real world, looking at a rider we can not really tell whether its good or bad position without us first understanding EVERYTHING going on with your body and the bike. When you are able to pump out the power in a efficient aero position, that is a proper bike fit. Do you encounter IT band issues? Or below the knee pain(Patella tendonitis) Be Careful.

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Robert Driskell
Certified Master Body Geometry fit Technician
Certified Master Retul Fit Technician
Zipp Service Course Specialist
Bikes Plus Pensacola Florida

What about a smaller frame? I look again and again, and it just seems as if he's on his dad's bike ...

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What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand

Maybe, but only if he finds a stretched position to be uncomfortable and added drop to be sustainable.

I agree,
I don't see where this notion that a stretched position is uncomfortable.
I found it far more comfortable as I was essentially bracing, not sitting on my elbows which I found really uncomfortable.

The problem is, most people hold that exact position for 10 minutes and think I could never hold this in an ironman, but I bet even on the flattest of course your are still shifting about a little, moving your shoulders and arms a little, relaxing and contacting.

The other thing is back strength.

If you really can't hold a stretched position then maybe you need some more back bracing strength, time to practice some deadlifts, just to activated the posterior chain etc.

Thanks for all the feedback and comments. This is super helpful and my race is in August, so great to tinker now. I am waiting for feedback from the fitter. He's done a number of my fits the past 6-8 years and I've been fine.

(Knock on wood)
Injury wise, I've been pretty lucky. For the most part nothing the past 12 years of endurance racing/training. 7 Ironman's and around 12 marathons. Not super fast but I've been consistent. Though, I haven't done an ironman since 2013. Had a second kid and focused on breaking a 3 hour marathon (took me 3 tries but I did it).

Started cycling a lot more the past 7-8 months and lifting weights. Deadlifts, push-ups, pull-ups, and squats are regular weekly activities since last Summer. I'm likely lighter and stronger than I've been in a long time but older (41) and don't recover as well (thus listen to TSS and training peaks for well-timed rest).

Here is a pic of my last IM on a S5 (size 56). I'm hoping the Trek SC will be faster since it's a dedicated tri bike. I've ridden road bike with aero clip-ons the last few IM's, but still PB'd (IM Copenhagen: 10:37, IM German: 10:23). Hoping for a faster time on a very fast course, just gotta stay aero/comfortable on a flat course and run well.

Well your current position is way better than the one on your S5, so that's a start!

Went back to the fitter and we made some adjustments, like move the seat up and down (just a tad). Effectively bringing saddle height from 180mm to 175mm. Everything is really the same (maybe the reach is a little shorter). Thanks for the feedback!

Slow-Mo Video here:

https://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be

Robert

Why did you ask about IT issues?

Thanks in advance!

Jonathan

I'm curious about the IT Band comment too. I've had some Lower it band issues and thought it was from running. Did an Olympic tri, first one, last summer and after finishing, later that day, the hurting began. Nothing twinged during race. Maybe could have been from bike and didn't know it?

High seat will predispose you to ITB issues.

Video link doesn't work for me. I'd say lower the saddle and the front end together at least 1cm. Spine angle looks sustainable and your head is in a good position so keep that.

That is what I thought. My fitter raised my seat on me and after a week of riding my ITBS flared up. I have dropped it back down and am starting to build mileage back up.

Thanks everyone. Updated the link, forgot the publish, here is the video:



I don't have IT band issues and if I go lower, wouldn't that mess with my ankle/foot angle with the pedal?

Thanks!

Seat still looks too high. I also think the bike is a size too big for you. You should probably be on a M Trek SC and not a L.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Because when a cyclist has tight IT bands then if the saddle is slightly high you may experience soreness on the outer knee. It is vital for a proper bike fit for the fitter to fully understand the riders body.

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Robert Driskell
Certified Master Body Geometry fit Technician
Certified Master Retul Fit Technician
Zipp Service Course Specialist
Bikes Plus Pensacola Florida

Thanks GMan. I might be on the top end of the Medium, so opted for Large b/c I got a great deal on the bike. Also, the bike has a lot of options, so thought I could get dialed in (eventually). I still have the stack replacement to go lower in the front end so I could test out bringing everything down a little more.

If you switch to 165 from 172.5 it'll give the room you need to flatten your back save your IT band.

I'm only 1 - 1 1/2 taller you at 5'11 with a 33 inseam and thats about the right size frame just need a couple more adjustments until you make yourself comfy.

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Speed kills unless you have speed skills!!!

After seeing your video, the seat is definitely too high. My heuristic is that the angle between your ankle and lower leg when the crank arm is at 3 o'clock should be held through the bottom of the pedal stroke. You probably need to lower the seat 1cm minimum and switch to the low/near stem.

Note, however, I'm not an expert by any means.

Now why do you say Retul fitters always put saddle too high? Retul is a Tool not a methodology. Saddle height is based off what we see during the physical assessment that day. So if say client has chronic patella tendonitis then we might go higher. So there must have been a reason for this height. I love your trainer though😊

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Robert Driskell
Certified Master Body Geometry fit Technician
Certified Master Retul Fit Technician
Zipp Service Course Specialist
Bikes Plus Pensacola Florida

i like your position. if your seat is too high it's not too high by much.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

What kind of cleat placement do you ride?

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very forward

Thanks everyone! Very helpful. I'm going to give this position a shot for a month and see how I feel. I haven't ridden much outside, so I want to see if I can hold the position comfortably off the trainer. "A" race is in August, so have some time to get things right. I've done 2-2.5 hours on the trainer without any issues, but it's tough to hold the aero position for much longer than a few minutes at a time (usually go 4 min aero, 1 min off).

I keep thinking of changing my cranks to 165 vs 170 or try a different bike fitter, but don't want to rush into doing or spending too much!

What makes you want to get out of aero?

When I sat the way you were sitting in the last vid, I felt cramped for space between saddle and cockpit. After a short time in aero, my lower back would be screaming for relief and I'd have to get up. Increasing the cockpit distance helped me tremendously and I can now easily hold the aero position for a whole race.

P.S With a lower stem and the spacers, you've got plenty of adjustment. I don't think the Large was a mistake, with a Medium SC you'd have a tower of spacers to hit your current position.

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

Thanks Tessar! I just get out of aero on the trainer for some variety. Actually felt pretty good at a low power output this morning staying aero.
I would think my lower back would be sore if I was more stretched out? Keeping my head up on the road may need some getting used to so my neck won't be sore.

I thought the same thing with the medium frame as well. Unless I'm losing power or comfort because of a longer wheelbase, I think the large is fine and I still have wiggle room for fit adjustments.

You can post pictures of the fastest TT guys in the world and most of this forum will say their seat is too high and their cranks are too long. It's called hivemind.

Wow - given the new article on saddle height, I'm tempted to bring everything down on my bike! Switch to the lower stack on the front end and bring down the saddle more. I've been doing a LOT of research on crank arm length, close to trying 165 instead of the 170, but not totally convinced and it's not that cheap to make the change. I like my 172.5 on my road bike.

I did a 2 hour (7x10min at Steady State) on the Trainer this weekend and felt pretty good. Power seems to be getting better and I stay pretty comfortable in aero position. My fitter did push my saddle up a little and down during my last fit....isn't putting the saddle forward essentially like bringing down the saddle height?

My height is like 177-178cm (5'9''-5'10''), inseam around 33 (maybe 33.5), bike shoe is size 44-45 (10.5 US). I think I have OK flexibility (eg: bend over easily touch toes with legs straight).

I experienced that effect too. A bit too high and I can feel the pain after half an hour.

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Swim, bike, run, love and repeat. // Working on http://www.opentri.fr

your saddle is too high

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

MOAR reach

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

My eye says your cleats should be further back, anybody that drops the heel that much under power usually does better with the cleat a bit further back.
Which will mean your seat is too high again once you shift the cleats :)

I asked because you can make IT band issues with incorrect height. So many possible things can go wrong.

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Robert Driskell
Certified Master Body Geometry fit Technician
Certified Master Retul Fit Technician
Zipp Service Course Specialist
Bikes Plus Pensacola Florida

Did some adjustments. My right cleat was actually a little further up than my left so I brought it back. Also switched my front stack slightly lower along with the saddle down just a tad. Did a good interval session this morning and feeling pretty strong. Better power pushing down. Will try this out since I don't want to make too many massive changes.

Thanks again, been super helpful!

Video:

Funny you should mention Retül. I checked yesterday, and my current saddle height is 16mm lower than my last Retül fit (765 vs. 781mm). That's with shorter cranks now too. I was getting piriformis syndrome a couple of years ago on my long rides...lower the saddle, hey presto. It's definitely 'fit by numbers'.

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29 years and counting