Any technical hints on how to make such a video?

Buy a tripod? Flirt with the lifeguards?

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

buy a tripod or bring a friend. same basic way you'd make a critique my fit video.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Hi, I took my first video and was hoping it could be critiqued (shred me please)!
Background: Lifelong runner trying to swim. Started swimming 8 months ago, current 1500m LCM at 27:27, 100scy at 1:18. The video is of me roughly swimming at threshold pace. I find I am always significantly faster (15s/100) in my wetsuit OWS.

Broken left collarbone 2x with known mobility issues in that shoulder, generally very inflexible anyways. I have been diligently doing the 1 arm drills w and w/o snorkel and stretches with my shoulders to help flexibility. I feel that I am very bad with streamlining and straightening my arms and body in the water.

Any tips on issues to tackle and what drills I can best do to address them greatly appreciated. Thanks!

2 things i notice, but first here's a video of grant hackett for reference.



1. note this image below, a screenshot from the video of you. note the leg splay. this is directly related to how you breathe. you need to get rid of this.



note that you roll entirely, like a plank, when you breathe. hackett's movement, when he breathes, doesn't much extend to his body from the waist down. his feet continue, mostly, to push down toward the bottom of the pool rather than toward the sidewalls.

how do you fix this? by A) working to keep your feet kicking down, even when you're breathing, and either tether your feet entirely together, no kick when you swim, or tether them loosely together, requiring you to kick, but without letting your legs splay like that.

2. your first movement after the catch is a bend at the wrist. i get what you're trying to do. but again, watch hackett's video. there is no bend in the wrist. the bend is at the elbow. in fact, finis makes not one but two different paddles specifically designed to not let you bend at the wrist.

so, overall, good. but keep your feet kicking down all the time, get rid of that splay, and perfect your first action after the catch and extend, that is to say, establish that pulling surface (elbow to fingertip) correctly.

all that said, if tigerchick or halfspeed or monty contradict me, or if gerry rodrigues or gary hall sr come on the board to tell you i don't know what i'm talking about, listen to them not me.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

very much an adult onset swimmer. 2:00/100 if I'm lucky. I've got 50 yards shown here from the side, above the water.
All help is appreciated.

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The video won't embed.

Thanks Slowman, I had no idea I splayed like that! That explains why the 1 arm drills are so much easier with a snorkel too. Time for more band work.

You're right, I've been consciously bending my wrist then elbow. I have the yellow Finis agility paddles, are they the right tool for adressing that portion of the catch?

i'm going to defer to some others who're better than i am at diagnosing. but while they're deciding what to diagnose and what the remedy is, here are my observations:

1. you're doing everything "right". you're a good student. you learned the dance steps. now we just have to inject some rhythm.

2. you're a dutiful bilateral breather. that has helped you to make your stroke symmetrical. but, oxygen is your friend. no need to bilateral breathe. there is a need to breathe on both sides, but not to bilateral breathe.

3. you are a poster child for the drills in the Guppy Challenge. your feet are on the surface (mostly) but you're not getting anything out of them. if you watch videos of "hip driven freestyle" you're not getting that propulsion from your lower body. so...

- kick drills; one-arm pull drills (as explained in the guppy challenge); banded ankle swimming (band your ankles, float your lower body, and swim). those 3 things.

- at least one of your hands enters the water crossed-over, and then straightens out after it's in the water, as you're extending. your hands need to enter the water in front of your shoulders. the catch needs to be an affirmative, purposeful act.

let's start with this.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

there are 2 finis paddles that are specific to this. one is the bolster paddle, and the second is that figure 8 thing. but the agility paddles are good as well. just, the agility paddles won't solve this. i don't think you need to get a new set of paddles. just, now that you know you're doing this and that you shouldn't be doing this, i suspect you won't find this difficult to solve.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thanks Slowman.
I've been following the Guppy Challenge and have been doing tons of drills lately (need to do more). Been doing some bandwork for a while but need to increase that as well. I'm definitely aware of the crossover and have been working on correcting it.

I'll take any advice the others have to offer.

Your turnover is fine but you're letting a lot of water slip by not anchoring your catch out in front. Your elbow is dropping at the front of your stroke so the first move with stroking hand is down rather than back. With the dropped elbow you've shortened the window your "paddle" is effective. You're also cutting the stroke off a bit to soon...think about brushing your thigh with your thumb to finish off each stroke.

Here's link to videos from my swimming. I've got three videos with different angles. Any tips would be appreciated. Thanks!

if it wasn't for the fact that you are not sethjk above i'd sayou were sethjk above. except that you don't bilateral breathe.

let me tell you what i like and i think "ntc" above can see the difference in his stroke versus your stroke: the tops of your feet remain pointed toward the bottom of the pool when you breathe.

that said, i have the same sort of comments about you that i made about sethjk:

1. i'd like to see your kick more robust. pronounced. not that you should kick harder, just that you should get more out of it. by "more" i mean that i'd like to see your feet more on top of the water. your heels occasionally break the surface. barely. but your legs aren't as on the surface as i'd like. if you practice the 1-arm pulls and you occasionally feel your foot coming entirely out of the water, the top of your foot hitting the surface on the way down, that would be nice. and then translate that to regular swimming. just don't do this by bending at the knee; do this by changing your balance in the water.

2. you do that same thing sethjk does during the catch: esp when you breathe, that hand catches crossed over, and then you correct the cross-over in the water, after the catch. best if your hand entry occurs in front of your shoulder.

3. like sethjk, you're not driving your stroke with your hips. you're dragging your lower body through the water, like it was a trailer. 1-arm pulls, with your off hand extended in front of you, not sculling, near the surface of the water.

4. read what JoelO write about sethjk's pull. he drops the elbow rather than leading with the elbow. what i wrote a couple of weeks ago in the guppy challenge preface is, imagine a canoe paddle. you want that paddle to be perpendicular to the water its pulling. but you want to start that pull as far in front of you as you can, so that you get a nice, long pull. go higher up in this thread, look at grant hackett's "canoe paddle". he extends after the catch and then, after that period extansion - bam! - forearm gets perpendicular to the water and that's his canoe paddle. that elbow says high, and forward, while he's setting that pulling surface. nice long pull with all that surface area. and then he finishes.

JoelO exhorts sethjk to finish the pull. yes. others are more interested in what happens in the front of the stroke, the beginning. they think the end is just a detail. in general i think the front of the stroke is the most important focus. but if you're going to swim as hackett does, with that long extend phase before the pull, you have to have a pretty strong back half of the stroke.

thank you for these videos. these are great. these are just what i want. i'd like to see more in 2 or 3 weeks, to see if we made progress.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Slowman, thanks for the input. I'll keep working on the drills and focus on the mechanics.

"3. like sethjk, you're not driving your stroke with your hips. you're dragging your lower body through the water, like it was a trailer. 1-arm pulls, with your off hand extended in front of you, not sculling, near the surface of the water. "

Are you saying that 1-arm drills with off arm extended will help the hip driven freestyle?

Thank you

"Are you saying that 1-arm drills with off arm extended will help the hip driven freestyle?"

exactly. if you can do this drill with the arm extended, hand not sculling, hand staying near the water's surface, something is continuing your forward propulsion while your other arm is recovering. if you can properly execute this drill then you, from the hips down, are propelling yourself forward rather than your body's lower half reduced to an immobile weight needing to be dragged forward.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Or your drag is not sufficient to completely stop your forward motion.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

"Or your drag is not sufficient to completely stop your forward motion."

easy to test. band your ankles. float your legs. see if you can do the drill.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Not a valid test, unless the band allows for separation that may be part of the individual's normal stroke.

My legs are not motionless when I swim, yet that motion adds trivial propulsion.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

"Not a valid test, unless the band allows for separation that may be part of the individual's normal stroke"

do you think separating your legs adds to your hydrodynamics? and the lack of doing so would increase your drag?

let's keep our eye on the ball here. your contention, if i understand it, is that your pull, by itself, gives you enough propulsion that you glide through the water - you keep up that speed or some portion of it - during not just swimming, but swimming using only 1 arm.

i find that hard to imagine. i'll grant you that you maintain forward motion without kicking during swimming (to some degree) or you couldn't maintain proper form while swimming with a buoy between your thighs.

i don't want to get deep into the arcanity of this. i don't want to devolve into the theoretical possibility of something rather than simply testing it. i'm happy to yield the floor to anyone (you included) who has a recommendation for how folks who star in these videos in this thread can get faster.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

No, my leg separation is a result of arm stroke flaws that are due to a physical limitation in my shoulders (as far as I can tell) that dictates my catch. It assuredly contributes a small amount of drag. Not a lot, because it is a small separation. I can do one arm catch-up drills with minimal kicking and without halting in the water, but I'll confirm it tomorrow in the pool.

There's a guy who swims with us, who was a 1:49 200scy backstroke guy in college. He takes about 11 or 12 strokes per 25scy, and his kick is borderline non-existent when doing free, and his stroke is more of a front-quadrant stroke that shows itself with a long glide before the catch. He is extremely streamlined, which allows him to maintain momentum in the time between the finish of his stroke and the onset of the pull of the other arm.

Forward progress in swimming is about optimizing drag and thrust.

The swimmers in these videos can get faster by actually using the (back, butt, and hamstring) muscles that raise their legs to a streamlined position. Not by using bands or drills.

My apologies for introducing arcana. (and I don't think "arcanity" is a word)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

"I can do one arm catch-up drills with minimal kicking and without halting in the water"

bear in mind my prerequisite here - what i consider the important element of this drill - that the off arm be straight in front, fingers pointing toward the far wall, arm and hand just below the surface of the water, hand absolutely immobile (i.e., just as it is after the catch and extend, right before the pull if EVP is the goal).

i know you can do that drill, exactly the way i want it done, because you're a very good swimmer and probably better than i am. it's doing this drill, in this way, with no propulsion from the waist down. that's what i think would be very hard (tho i've never tried it).

as to the rest of what you write, okay, but in my opinion you are square in opposition to those who're advocating for "hip-driven freestyle." which is fine. just, i think that should be established.

"The swimmers in these videos can get faster by actually using the (back, butt, and hamstring) muscles that raise their legs to a streamlined position. Not by using bands or drills."

the drills are designed to get swimmers to do what you want them to do. telling somebody to do something is what's wrong with swimming (for adult onset swimmers). masters is very good for giving adult onset swimmers an enclave with which to swim - it's very bad at helping swimmers overcome the stroke problems that ail them. masters is next to useless for that. "stop swimming unstreamlined" is a harsh remedy if that's all you have to tell these folks.

"I don't think "arcanity" is a word"

i invented that word. and "opacity". and the tri bike. i invent what needs inventing ;-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Gotta love them words.

My advice is not "don't do that." My advice is quite specific and quite simple: identify by feel those muscles by lifting your straight legs while lying stomach-down on the floor, then engage those muscles while you swim. Once practiced enough, it becomes second nature and provides immediate speed gains with minimal energy expenditure.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

How does opacity relate to triathlon??? I'm familiar with its use in air pollution control but unacquainted with its use in tri.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Here are my three videos - please judge away.
Just seeing the videos (first time I filmed myself) helps me understand a lot of my problems, it will definitely be a monthly deal.
Some background facts:
- learned swimming as an adult, completely self taught
- effort 100m time at around 1:27 - 1:30
- endurance 100m time more around 1:40 - 1:45
- definitely faster in a wetsuit
- definitely faster with a pull buoy
Have been a good boy and does the complete guppy challenge including all 'extra' and 'extra extra' workouts (okay... I actually skipped two - after all I do have a job)
I simply can't swim faster than 1:30 for a 100 in the pool seems like the magic barrier I can't break no matter what.

Thanks for any comments.

"How does opacity relate to triathlon?"

it isn't. it's just a word i made up. (we were on the subject of things i made up.) a lot of other people have also made it up. i don't know that it's an official word. it's notable how many dictionaries do not contain that word.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

here's what i like:

- your hands enter right in front of your shoulders.
- you seem to have nice plantar flexion (when you point your toes). that bodes well for being able to kick well. someday.

here are the challenges:

- the fact that you swim faster with a buoy i attribute to 2 things, 1 good, 1 bad. the good thing: if you don't fishtail, that means you're good in the side-to-side plane. you don't fishtail. great. there's something we don't need to fix.

- your legs sink. you can see that in the video. swimming with a buoy floats your legs. you're out of balance in that plane. front to back. you need for your feet to break the water when you kick. lots of drag. which means, lots of speed when you fix that.

- what your hands do after the catch.

here's you:



here's grant hackett:



notice how grant hackett's entire arm is parallel to the water, hand up there, just under the surface of the water, until he starts the pull.

you, on the other hand - and you are typical of most swimmers - let your arm drift down, and nothing much starts to happen until you arm is underneath your body. the amount of actual pull you get, when you're pulling water back, is pretty minimal.

what you want is to set the pulling surface while it's in front of your body. catch, glide, hand on the surface, then set the pulling surface and pull straight back with that entire pulling surface (elbow to fingertip). pull straight back with that big paddle. don't think about S-patterns or any of that. just yank that paddle straight back.

i think you are on the cusp of a breakthrough. you really have fixed most of the bigger problems. you need to:

1. kick faster
2. get your feet up on the surface
3. pull with a much more efficient technique: your forearm needs to look more like a canoe paddle and less like a ferris wheel.

i have heard some people talk about swimming downhill. you can google that if you want to, you'll see some videos. it's a rhetorical device, but i like that for you. you are swimming uphill. your head and chest is up, your legs are down. if you think about swimming downhill, maybe that'll get your head down and your legs up. in the end, of course, you'll just be level, which is what we want, but i think the downhill motif might help you make some headway.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Nah, sorry but you did not invent the word opacity which has been in existence for at least 45 yrs or more. It is used in air pollution control as a measure of how thick the smoke is coming out of an air pollution source. EPA has been using this concept since the early '70s.

From Merriam-Webster:

Definition of opacity
plural opacities

1. 
   1a : obscurity of sense : unintelligibilityb : the quality or state of being mentally obtuse : dullness
   
2. 
   2 : the quality or state of a body that makes it impervious to the rays of light; broadly : the relative capacity of matter to obstruct the transmission of radiant energy
   
3. 
   3 : an opaque spot in a normally transparent structure (as the lens of the eye)
   

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Getting into the water today I could really feel my leg splay. Did warmup including 1 arm drills and band, really focusing on kicking down. When I then went into my main set, 20x100yd, everything felt so much smoother than I'm used to! I ended up having my fastest avg for this workout on 5s less RI than I normally do despite feeling awful, thanks Slowman! I will definitely keep focusing on this.

With regard to my pull I tried to focus on not bending the wrist. Pull felt stronger but arms started going out quicker, upper foreams especially. Just need to keep building strength there?

I hope to get more footage this weekend at more angles. Thanks again!

"everything felt so much smoother than I'm used to! I ended up having my fastest avg for this workout on 5s less RI than I normally do despite feeling awful, thanks Slowman!"

i'll send you my bill.

"Pull felt stronger but arms started going out quicker, upper foreams especially."

exactly. if you don't pull very much water, you don't get tired, but you don't go very fast. you're using your muscles now. you're grabbing real water. it's going to take a couple of weeks to get used to that, and then i suspect you'll start to see more speed.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Following up: I can do a one-arm drill without kicking (at least on one side) and make continuous forward progress. I checked with our backstroker, and he said no problem.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

"Following up: I can do a one-arm drill without kicking (at least on one side) and make continuous forward progress."

to be clear, the point of this drill is to do it, it's to do it with one specific technical element maintained. the key to this drill is that one technical element. you achieved success doing the drill the way i describe? i haven't tried it, but if you can do this without kicking, i would think that is evidence of exceptional posture in the water.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I can't imagine any other way to do that drill that would make sense.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

"I can't imagine any other way to do that drill that would make sense."

i agree. i think the drill is worthless otherwise. but the specific element that i stress in this drill is nothing i've ever heard anyone else mention. accordingly, it's not a discipline i see emphasized when this drill is executed, especially by newbies.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Critique my swim!
I've been following the guppy challenge (missed last week due to the flu) and getting a lot out of it (thanks!). Adult onset lap swimmer; currently swimming about 1:40 to 1:45/ 100m in distance swims, 1:30 for a 100m TT. Slow (weak) when kicking only.

"Critique my swim!"

your stroke isn't perfect. but here's what your stroke says to me: you are an adult onset swimmer who is paying a lot of attention to the dance steps. you understand them almost perfectly. you understand this dance perfectly. you just need rhythm. and rhythm comes with time.

i really like your stroke, bearing in mind when you began swimming. yes, i want your legs a bit higher. to the fellow above who i exhorted to "swim downhill", i say the same to you. your head is high and your legs are low, so you're angled up a bit.

if you look at the video of grant hackett that i so often refer to (you'll find it in a couple of posts in this thread, you'll see that on one side, during the catch, he almost dives into the water, forces himself into the water, and the lower you are in the water from the chest forward the higher you are out of the water from your waist down. i don't remark on this as an expert, simply as an observer. adult onset swimmers have as their most often telling feature a body that is too high in the water from the chest forward, too low from the waist down.

but that's it. otherwise, what you need are yards, and time. to me, the very best thing you can do is, once or twice a week, push yourself out to more and more yardage. not all at once. add 300 yards to your most recent longest swim. if you topped at at 2,400 yards, take once or twice a week and push that up to 2,700 yards, the next time 3,000 yards, 3,300 yards. just add distance to that main set. instead of swimming guppy yardage in the main set, swim tarpon yardage, and then tuna yardage. not every workout. just once or twice a week. you'd be amazed how much more you get out of your routine if 1 or 2 workouts a week are 4,000 yards instead of 2,500 yards.

i think you're going to be a rockin' good swimmer.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

More of a general reply but what is the trick to embedding the videos?

if they're on youtube, you hit the share button and copy and paste the URL here. it'll start with https://youtu.be/ and then there'll be a code after that identifying the specific video. just copy it, paste it here, it'll automatically populate with the video.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Sorry for the length - this is 5 minutes long but I don't know how to break it down and edit it. But has above water and under water from numerous angles. I know there's plenty to work on - any and all feedback is appreciated.

Thanks.

Note: We did some video yesterday as well and parts of it were pretty difficult to see but I was dropping both of my arms a fair amount before starting the stroke so today's video still has some of this but not remotely close to as bad as it was yesterday but that was only because I had already seen some video of what I was actually doing versus what I thought I was doing.

first, here are the two observations that stick out as i watch your stroke, from the shoulders forward:

when you breathe on your right, you have a crossover with your very next stroke (your right hand). that hand needs to be in front of your shoulder. let me rephrase. it needs to be in front of the shoulder that hand is attached to.



when you breathe on your left, your right hand does takes the scenic route way out to the side. you don't do this when you breathe on your right. and your other hand doesn't do this when you breathe on the left. this is the only time your hand does this and it's only when you breathe on your left. watch your video, you'll see it.



that out of the way, i'd say you look pretty darned good for a guppy. your kick is there for the ride, not adding anything. now, i know that this is a point of debate. we have quiet, 2-beat kickers that really swim fast, but i would argue that those kicks, even if there are only 2 of them per stroke, are forceful and come at precisely the right time in the cycle of the stroke. they're affirmative acts.

your kick (as is the case with most guppies) isn't affirmative. it's like the bell rings, you move toward the center of the ring, and you approach the boxing match by raising a finger and saying, "excuse me, could we discuss..." and at that point the other guy's fist knocks you out. your kick needs to be affirmative, not passive or ambivalent.

if you watch grant hackett, his kick is reasonably quiet, but right at the point his hand enters the water that foot comes down hard and fast. in my opinion this is how he generates propulsion to keep him going during the extend phase. i would treat my kick as if it had a purpose. a function.

then there's setting that pulling surface. again. grant hackett. from the elbow to the fingertip, that is your pulling surface. that is your paddle. that needs to be perpendicular to the water you're pulling. look at your video of you, and see for yourself when that is happening and when it is not.

i have a vasa ergometer. you can get one for yourself. or a vasa trainer. or you can get some surgical tubing, anchor it to something, stand in front of it, bend at the waist, and pull with a high elbow and a early vertical forearm. you can practice this and because you're out of the water you can observe yourself doing this. it's not simply a strength exercise, it's a way to practice setting that pulling surface, and then pulling straight back.

note that when you do this the elbow is high at the beginning of the pull phase; your forearm and hand are below the elbow. i think when you do this right, there is even a point during the stroke when your upper arm is part of the pulling surface. the goal here is to marshal as much pulling surface as you can, and force it straight back against the water for as long as you can. guppies tend to push down on the water, then back (a little) and then they truncate the stroke and pull their hands out of the water. very little time is spend pulling straight back with as much surface area as you can. this is your task.

otherwise, you look very good considering the background i assume you (don't) have as a pure swimmer. you have nothing but upside.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

johnny fuggin weissmuller you are! very nice. now you have no excuses. now it's just swim like a demon and you'll get faster.

that second video is a nice view of what it looks like to draft. but you pick up 3, 4, 5sec per 100. if you find the right feet to swim behind it's a minute at least in an ironman. a little bubbly. a little bumpy. but definitely faster than breaking your own water.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

You have no idea how excited I am to hear this! I have never really cared about the swimming portion so never even tried that much on it. With this challenge I decided I would devote some time to it and see what happened. Since starting, I have dropped my 1000 time from 18:20 to a 15:55 this week which still isn't FOP but I am getting somewhere and hope to find some more. Thank you again for doing this and to everyone else who has provided comments and tips for all of us to implement.

here is what i would like you and everyone else to do. imagine yourself getting out of T1. now, start your watch. wait 3 minutes. imagine people flowing past you into T1. imagine yourself getting panicky as these people flow past you, person after person. and then folks from the next wave start to come out, and they go by you. another 45 seconds go by, and the first person from the next wave shows up. you're still standing there. then you hit the 3-minute mark. you get to take off on your bike.

the old you is that guy. the new you is that guy except now you don't have to stop and wait and let all those people flow past. imagine the folks you're coming out with - people you never see except at turnarounds.

that's the progress you've made.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Any tips on filming in a busy pool? Is it even possible? Would you feel concerned / weirded out if someone is filming next to you when you are swimming and catching you?

Your stroke is coming along!


One thing I see you and others doing is what is called "putting on the brakes". I think it might be an unintended consequence of people trying to keep the hand near the surface as part of the 1-arm drill. Yes, the hand needs to be near the surface but you still want to come in at an angle. As Andy Potts says..."When swimming, try to keep your fingertips down through the entire stroke. So fingertips need to stay below your wrist, your wrist needs to stay below your elbow. And keep your fingertips pointed down."


Here's a pretty good write-up about what I'm talking about. http://www.feelforthewater.com/...usive-wrong-can.html

So it looks like my wrist/hand is pointed slightly up at the top end of the stroke. What you and the article you linked are saying is my wrist/fingertips should be pointed slightly down correct?

"Any tips on filming in a busy pool? Is it even possible? Would you feel concerned / weirded out if someone is filming next to you when you are swimming and catching you?"

i don't know. it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Here's a pretty good write-up about what I'm talking about."

the only bone of contention some might take with the link you provide is in the initial drawing. mr. smooth. if you talk to the guys at finis they are absolutely adamant about no bend at the wrist. yes, you need to push back (not down), but that's accomplished by making the bend happen at the elbow, rather than beginning with a push back from the wrist. the hackett video is a case in point.

t's not a mountain i'll die trying to take, because i don't feel sufficiently qualified. just, this is what i read. and see.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Correct. Enter the water at an angle and make sure the fingertips stay below the wrist as you complete your extension.

I agree, not the best illustration. Hand/wrist should be flat.

Let me know what you think:

there's a lot that looks good. catch and extend are good, you're moving forward and not side to side. all that is good.

two things i'd like to see different. as has been the case with most of the folks putting vids up here, your legs are sunk. they need to be higher.

tim elson, ex of finis, has an interesting "drill" he asks people to do, if you want to call it that. float on the surface, like the vitruvian man. don't go anywhere. just float in place. immobile. see how long you can float, face down, with your legs and feet on the surface. it's very hard at first! but you get better at it. tell the lifeguard first what you're doing, so you don't give him heart attack.

it's this sort of posture change that'll make a big difference in your swimming. head down, legs up. i don't have a pithy suggestion on how to do it. the really hard core drill for this is to band the ankles together, without any flotation, and try to make your way freestyle across the pool. if you can do that, you've solved it.

second thing, you have pretty much zero extend, or glide, after the catch. you don't have to have mountains of it, but there should be more than you now have. i think i understand why you don't: because you basically stall after the catch and you've got to start your pull immediately.

in fact, both these are related. from the hips down you aren't doing enough to keep yourself moving. there's a drill that immediately comes to mind that i think would help you, because it would force you to make changes in order to perform the drill. here's a video that dave scott narrates, and it's 3 drills he likes, and i want you to do the first one: slow arm recovery with hesitation:



i like this better than full catch-up because this exaggerates your extend phase but it's more natural than catch-up.

if you get your feet up on the surface - which has more to do with your body from the trunk up than from the trunk down - you can then drive with your hips and legs into the catch and extend and it'll make that recovery with hesitation drill easier to perform.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thanks for the critiques, I'll get on the new drills asap. I'd also like to thank you for putting together this challenge, usually swimming is usually 'I'll just fit it in when I can' which usually turns into not very many swims. The Guppy challenge has forced me to rethink that mentality, thank you!

Why is this not pithy enough?

"My advice is not "don't do that." My advice is quite specific and quite simple: identify by feel those muscles by lifting your straight legs while lying stomach-down on the floor, then engage those muscles while you swim. Once practiced enough, it becomes second nature and provides immediate speed gains with minimal energy expenditure. "

While swimming yesterday, I made a conscious effort to detect those muscles, and sure enough I could feel the slight flexing of my back, butt, and hamstring muscles that keep my legs at the surface.

Putting bands on your ankles sinks your legs, but it doesn't tell you how to raise them. The above does exactly that.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

"Putting bands on your ankles sinks your legs, but it doesn't tell you how to raise them. The above does exactly that."

i don't have any quarrel with what you're advocating doing. i think there is more than one way to skin this. you're absolutely right in what you say, as far as it goes. the challenge is in how to get people to make the necessary change.

one way is to tell somebody directly what to do. another way is to place someone in a position where absolute failure is imminent absent making the necessary change. i can tell you that this is how you engage your muscles properly to climb that tree. or i can let loose a grizzly bear and rest in the comfort that you'll figure out how to climb that tree. i am not equipped to argue that one method is better and, in fact, i think it's possible each method has its audience.

one thing i do believe is that the pathways to teaching adult onset swimmers are different than those when teaching a 9 year old to swim. but that's about the only thing i have confidence in. the rest for me is trial and error and i welcome your input (and anyone else's). as a matter of fact, what with the influx of videos on this thread, i got up this morning intending to call out halfspeed and tigerchick and have them join you in adding their thoughts to the folks posting these videos.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

You might try:

Snorkel sets to find balance in the water. Posture looks good but of course strengthen the swim base will help with speed.
Fist drills to take away any feeling of downward push at the front end
Try pulling more down the middle as I find this is more efficient than paddling out to the sides so much.
Move to multi-stroke work, back stroke etc.

Looks pretty natural - keep at the program you'll be fast

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

Ok guys this is going to be a hard one! so many things to fix!
first of all a little background: as many, started swimming 3 years ago (age 29), for only 1 reason: doing triathlons. never swam in my entire life, couldn't do a single lap without grasping for air. The first year went by with me finishing a couple of 70.3 with a swim time around 37-40min. Late 2015 I started doing the finding freestyle program, it helped me a lot, especially with syncing my kick with the upper body. At the end of the program I was able to improve my average pace by 15-20secs.
For work reasons, beginning of 2016 I stopped training, and resumed last November, obviously much slower than 9 months before. when the guppy challenge started I picked it up immediately and it helped me getting close to where I was last year.
Swimming is by far the sport where I suck the most, I struggle being relaxed in the water, my shoulder mobility is horrible (if I stand and lift my arms straight up, they're way in front of my head and you can see it also when I'm swimming, my arms are way below the surface of the water); my ankle flexibility is horrible as well! I feel like I'm at a dead end right now, I would really appreciate your feedback.

In the video you will see two segments, both front/back and from the side; in the first segment I'm trying a 6 beat kick, in the second a 2 beat kick. I've always kicked with a 2 beat, I always struggled with the 6 beat, but lately I tried harder to learn it, and it's getting better.

That looks pretty good to my eye. Your stroke rate is a little slow but that's probably due to lack of pool time. You do lift a little bit when you breathe. You can see it as an arch in the back when you go to breathe...that's causing additional drag.

I would appreciate any constructive feedback!

Thanks Dan!
I have been working on your suggestions these last few days and especially the "swim downhill" one works for me.
Now on to focus on the windmill arms see more :-)

Would consider posting a swim video of yourself and Monty?

Thanks for your feedback Joel!

400 IM 4:50xx

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Why are you breathing every stroke?

Air is your friend. Unless I'm going at a really easy pace or sprinting, I breathe every stroke.

Grant, your stroke looks good to me. Like trimarch, you would benefit from a higher stroke rate. Both of you appear to be swimming at roughly 60 strokes per minute. I would get a Finis tempo trainer and work on getting your stroke rate to about .85 seconds per stroke (that's mode 1 on the tempo trainer). You're at about 1 second per stroke now so it will take some time and effort to get there. You don't want to cut your stroke short just to get the higher rate.

Do you see that little s-movement by your hands in the middle of your pull? I think you are pulling with too straight an arm (no early vertical forearm (EVF)), and it's really hard to hold the water with a straight arm. So, you release the water by moving your hand from side to side. That both reduces thrust and takes extra time (albeit very little time) each stroke. I think your hand goes too far down towards the bottom of the pool (that was my first hint about the straight arm), and the last video from the side clearly shows the straight arm.

You are extending your left arm too low in the water in front of you. It should look more like your right arm.

It's hard to be sure, but I think your hand is angled when you are at the low point of your pull, such that the surface of your hand (the pushing part!) is not perpendicular to the backward motion of the hand (little finger is leading your index finger). This may go back to needing too much strength to hold that pull because of the straight arm.

It's a decent stroke; as someone said, you could use a bit more turnover. Get those forearms vertical earlier, and straighten out the hand motion and you might see some improvement.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Appreciate this challenge very much. Lots to harp on here I know, but looking for a couple of specific things to address. Thanks...

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Arete Endurance

Right off the top, you are getting very little thrust on your left side. The elbow is leading through the pull. You need to work on the EVF, especially on that side. Nothing else will help you more than fixing that. The right arm isn't a lot better.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

thanks. appreciate it. i'm not exactly surprised as that would describe what i feel. feels like it my arms slip. any specific ways to work on EVF that you'd suggest? I get a little lost of the endless options of ways to improve that. Doing one arm drills, catch up, and sculling. Sculling "feels" like it helps the most.

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Arete Endurance

I think Karlyn does a pretty good job of demonstrating the technique.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTQpF_mmg44[/url]

One drill I used to do was a two part sculling drill. Do a fifty in which the first length is the drill with one arm, and the length back is the other arm. Then repeat with the next drill, then a third fifty swimming normally.

#1: scull with the hand of one arm straight in front (both arms can be in front), left to right, three times, then take a pull with that arm (keeping the other arm in front), repeat for the length coming back with the other arm
#2: as above, but scull after initiating the pull so your sculling occurs with the forearm pointed straight down, and the elbow at the surface (this gives you the feel for what your hand/elbow relationship should be in space)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Are new entrants welcome? I have to confess I'm only starting the guppy program now. Basically I'm a cyclist who can run pretty well.
I do 70.3 and 140.6 events as the ratio of swimming to "the good stuff" is better and allows me to be competitive. I've never been a swimmer, I struggle at it and don't particular enjoy it. Pretty much fight through every stroke and breath. 1h 15 swim at Copenhagen last year. Strangely enough when I've been swimming for a while, I'm much faster in a pool than OW, guys who i'll be 15s/100 quicker than on repeats get out of the water at the same time or faster in a 3.8k race despite me having a top of the line, good fitting wet suit.
Basically I want a trip to Hawaii (who doesn't?) and my swimming isn't going to allow it.

I sink like a brick, I tried the lying face down drill and honestly try as I might my feet touch the bottom inside of 2 secs. I tried the land equivalent (prone superman position?) and it makes me swim in a hammock shape.

I know pretty much nothing is particularly right about my stroke but would love a firm grip or plan on where to attack first. I get zero propulsion from my kick. With a kickboard I genuinely stay static in the water. With a pull buoy swimming feels so much easier.

Anyway, I hope these videos are adequate. They were done a while back and I've been focusing on getting a bent elbow catch since then.
Any advice would be gratefully received. Many thanks for what you are doing here



Apologies I am struggling with embedded linking of the second video

You say "I tried the land equivalent (prone superman position?) and it makes me swim in a hammock shape", but I bet you don't. Post a video of you really trying to engage your back/butt/hamstring muscles while you swim. In the first video, check out your hip angle: your hip flexors are pulling your legs down. As a cyclist, your hip flexors are likely very tight. You need to stretch them, or you will always be dragging your legs while swimming.

Following that,

1. Your right hand enters too close to your shoulders: it should enter further toward your maximal extension. Too much extension under the water both takes more time to get to full extension, and increases drag. Your left arm is only slightly better. Both hands are too low at full extension.
2. You are pulling with straight arms. This likely leads to your exaggerated s-pull (your hand comes back under your torso), since you can't pull effectively with a straight arm, so your hand slides from side to side. Especially on your right side (else it is just easier to see), your hand crosses under your torso. Look up and learn how to do the early vertical forearm thing.
3. Your right hand appears angled during the entire pull. It should be perpendicular to the direction of pull, so you are allowing a lot of water to slip off. Paddles might be helpful to enable you to feel what it should be like to hold the water.
4. Your legs splay a lot. I would guess this would lessen if you fix the above upper-body flaws, especially the cross-over (nobody splays their legs deliberately; I think it mostly follows what the arms are doing incorrectly).

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Many thanks for the input. I do all my cycling curled up in a ball in an aggressive TT position and my pelvic flexibility and overall core strength is poor at best. Ankle flexibility is woeful. I'm time pressed (aren't we all) and core work and flexibility is always the first to go. I'm in the middle of a marathon build atm so these are even worse than usual.

You are entirely right about the catch and pull. Frequently my hand 'slips' mid pull and wobbles laterally rather than maintaining tension on both sides.
You've given me things to focus on, thanks.

I do this stretch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQmpO9VT2X4) during or after my swim warmup, in the pool. Takes a minute, which you have time for. In a couple of weeks, you'll be surprised how much more flexibility you have (and how tight you were at the start!). Then you'll be able to use those back/butt/hamstring muscles to keep your legs high, without fighting your hip flexors.

Don't scoff at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5nE5FBPsQ, but it shows what you need to do to engage those muscles.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Ha I like that video, it certainly sticks in the mind. I'll give it a go for a few weeks. For a typical desk workiner, anterior pelvic tilting slouch like me it's going to be tough though. I'll have to keep telling myself the gains are greater than yet another bike gizmo. Cheers

Thanks for this thread. I miss Doug Stern and his advice.

Thanks for promoting this Dan! I always felt the filming of swimming is a bit more difficult to do as it requires a friend but luckily I have one of those LOL


Things I notice:

• Left hand enters and pushes outwards
• Elbow is dropping
• Legs sinking

The fixes for these things is what I've been personally struggling with. Any further critiques would be very much welcomed.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ya0wpxfeam8929/CSH%20DEC%202016%20SWIM%20VIDEO.mov?dl=0

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

Left hand enters too close to centerline. Think 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock entry positions, and you'll be more likely to be entering where you should (in front of the shoulder). You won't push outwards as much if you enter where you should. Fixing this will likely address the massive serpentine motion you have. Try this drill: hold a kick board with two hands (one on each edge) in front of you while kicking, then release one hand and take a full stroke. Hold the board in place (don't let it swing to the side on which you are holding it) and practice your hand entering the water next to the board (with your current stroke, you'd hit the board).

Left arm is definitely too straight during the pull. It's not so much "dropping the elbow" as not dropping the hand to get the vertical forearm. Don't worry about the elbow and concentrate on getting your hand below the elbow as you begin your pull.

See the video I posted above for how to get your legs up. Stretch your hip flexors, engage the back/butt/hamstring muscles. Try looking forward a bit instead of straight down, too.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Awesome pointers and greatly appreciated. I've got some functional anatomical issues I've been working on with my conditioning coach. I've got very restrictive movement in my shoulders (internal/external rotation) which is the root of a lot of these issue but fixing both at the same time is the goal.

I'll be incorporating the kickboard drill you've mentioned and the video was golden.


Thanks so much

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

I'll give this one a shot - I'm newer to working with other strokes, so can see what's off, but can't really describe in text how to correct.

Breakouts, underwater work, & turns need work.

Something is off with your back breakout - hard to tell from vid but is your back kick lacking propulsion? Doesn't seem to be timed quite right either.

Breaststroke - UW pull out looks short - again is kick lacking propulsion? Also breast - recovery should be quicker - can't see from video why, possibly need to streamline glide better?

Also, for the speed you swim, you take a lot of strokes. Not necessarily a super bad thing, but an indication there are likely some efficiencies to be gained.

L

I deliberatly shortened my UW on backstroke. I over reached on my last stroke in back and my arm almost got caught in the backstroke start bar. That messed up my flow on the first pull out. I've been working on keeping my knees narrow to cut drag in breaststroke so yes it might have less power than a wide kick but my splits are getting faster. Time was 4:50.81. Bear in mind only 1 guy in USMS (40-44) was faster in 2016 than that and its 4 seconds under #1 here in Canada. Should be a FINA top 10, I plan on racing it at Nationals in Quebec City. Just shows no body is perfect. My friend looked at it and said most of the same things. My fly was 1:03 high and freestyle should usually be equal. Believe me that first 100m was super easy...

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Yes, what JoelO says. The first thing that happens when you reach to the end of your forward recovery is you pull your elbow back and your hand follows it. There is a lot of slipping there because you haven't anchored your forearm to the water before you pull through. Fix this and your swim will be much much faster!

Probably not new to you, but just in case, imagine you are standing behind a long line of 50 gallon barrels lying on their sides (Like Evil Knievel would have jumped them). Lying on the first one, reach over the second one and anchor your hand and arm down the rounded side of the barrel before you pull yourself over it, alternating barrel to barrel. If you don't reach your hand down, you won't have anything to pull on. Probably heard that before...

Try imagining that you are swimming in a pool that's only about 2 feet deep. Make your pull parallel to the bottom as much as possible from front to back of the pull, and don't let your hand hit the bottom. Looks like your pull, L>R, is a big arc from front to back, with the low part being really low. The first half of that pull is spending energy pushing your shoulders up out of the water, and the second half is pulling yourself down.

Thanks I've not been engaging my core enough which leads to the arch when combined with my poor mobility in the shoulders. I saw a great video yesterday which has got me a bit more aware of the "catch" phase which is where I think I'm most deficient (and seems to be what I'm hearing here) once I get my catch cleaned up I think the high elbow will come naturally.

This video of Canadian National member Kirsten Sweetland shows me an exaggerated catch like the Grant Hackett video but a different angle and in HD.

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=LylTSOqIFbs

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

I missed the part about shoulder mobility. If you can't get a good streamlined position without a massive arch in your back, you might have someone look at your shoulders and see if that could change. That's an uphill battle. I might even say engaging your core would make things worse if you can't reach enough shoulder elevation range of motion. That arch could be a compensation that works for you until you improve your shoulder mobility. You need those hands out in front!

Yeah I'm already on the shoulder work. I'm doing an anatomical correction focus with my physio / strength coach. So far we've made some progress but we suspect a few more weeks and there should be even more. Right now I'm doing plenty of experimenting and filming to see if I can connect the dots between what I'm feeling and what is actually taking place.

Thanks for the feedback and insights. I'm happy to hear from anybody who's got more stroke correction tips.

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

Update! Things I'm supposed to be working on: not having a terrible leg splay when I breathe and not bending at the wrist on the pull. I think I have improved on the kick issue and I have been working on a 2 beat kick which doesn't seem to slow me down.

These new angles show my left catch is awful! Any tips to help address this? This is also the side I smashed my collarbone on 2x and is less mobile from that. Any other issues to address here? Thanks.



Side View


Under View 2BK (skip to 20s)


Under View 6BK

Hi Slowman,

Thanks for taking the time to analyze all of our videos. I took my first attempt in getting myself recorded. The result is not optimal (vertical mode and unfortunately no underwater camera at my disposal), but I hope it exposes the long hanging fruits that prevent me from swimming more efficiently.

FYI: In the video below I was pretty well rested after a set. Would describe by RPE here as 7, and the pace must have been 1:35-1:40ish. Although the RPE is relatively low, I'm not able to maintain this pace much longer. I believe that my main limiters are muscle strength and the ability to perform a nice push. Pace for medium long distance (500m) would be 1:50 in 25m pool if I'm really pushing it. Last weekend I did 2000m in 41:40 and felt pretty roasted afterwards.

Any feedback, suggested sets or drills are more than welcome.

Thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VqLKqtILbU

So much learning and great hint from all the videos
One of the things, I noticed when Grant Hackett swims is that he has a very clear rhythm. His arm is stretched in the water for almost 2 seconds before he initiates the stroke. When I see the videos and watch people swim in the pool, most people have one continually movement. They don't pause. How do you view the pause? What are the benefits?
Thanks!

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Boman
http://forsikring.io/

You are doing a lot of good things. Nice turnover, pretty tight kick and a pretty good streamline.

It looks like you are "putting on the brakes" when you extend at the front. You can see what I mean if you go frame by frame in the video. Keep those fingertips below the wrist when you extend out front...or think of keeping the elbow higher than the hand (whatever reminder works for you).

You're a little wide with your pull on the right ... otherwise, the right side looks pretty good.

In the first video, you can see that you drop the left elbow. If you have flexibility/mobility issues on that side, it might be easier to start with a slightly deeper catch. It would be easier to keep the elbow high(er) if you started your pull from a slightly deeper position.

A little late at the party but I would like to have some feedback if it is possible, 2 weeks after a disappointing non-wetsuit swim at IM Fortaleza (1h21...) I started back at the Guppy Challenge, 3-4 swims / 7-9km per week this is 2x50m at the start of one of last week sessions:

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Ale Martinez
www.amtriathlon.com

Ok, my turn very late in the game here. I'm a weak swimmer, and am open to advice.

Apologies for the quality of the video. The pool is a little murky and dark, and I was not sure where to position the camera on my first attempt at filming myself.
That being said, I did try to film a few passes, and cut out the dead time.

Here is my attempt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-c36lx33eE

Background: adult onset swimmer, been working out with a local Master's team for the last 2+ years and had a little 1:1 coaching. Some improvements, but I'm still MOP out of the water during races.

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Cheers,
Sam

Hello Slowman and All,

Many of the swim videos seem to have only a few useful frames ....

http://www.swimmingcam.com/camera-systems.php



This device looks good for side shots and could be home brewed pretty easily.

Also ...... perhaps a 'carbon fiber' (or bamboo) stick attached to the swimmer that put the camera directly out in front by 4 feet or so and captured slow motion head on shots.

Or maybe a tiny submarine drone that captured slow motion shots from in front or below or the side.

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

You don't need any help if you can swim the pace in the video over the course of 2.4 miles....that's a 58 min IM pace. :) Take a look at Katie's hand entry and EVF and compare it to yours.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/...0m-free-world-record

She sets that EVF out in front so she's able to pull straight back early. You're not getting there until your hand is about even with your shoulder so you're pushing the water down rather than back in the first part of your pull. The Kirsten Sweetland video that PushThePace posted earlier demonstrates some drills to work on EVF. Btw, I don't think I have the flexibility to get vertical that early...she's vertical (Kirsten) at the top of her head.

It looks like Katie (and Michael Phelps) keep their thumb tucked in (a lot) more than you do. My coach keeps reminding me to tuck mine in a bit. I'm guessing it must be a drag issue.

You're crossing over a bit on the breathing side...not severe, but something to work on. You're also going way wide on the right side pull...bring that hand in closer to the body line so you don't stress that shoulder so much. It will also help you to maintain a better streamline (pulling straight down the body line).

i got nothing for ya. stroke is fine. now it's just yards, and swimming in a fast group if you can, that will challenge you, one or twice a week.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Sam, sorry, I got caught up in the "I can tell by his stride he's a triathlete"...I think I'm a hobby jogger.

You need a little work on the front end of your stroke. You immediately drop your elbow when you extend out front (much more so on the left side)...that's causing issues with setting up your catch properly. When you extend out front and when you initiate the catch, your forearm and elbow should always be above your hand. You might want to get a kick board & pull buoy and swim with one hand on the board and do some one arm drills. With the kick board and buoy you can focus on the front of your stroke...keeping the elbow high and above the forearm, wrist, and fingertips. During the mid part of the pull, make sure the elbow is not leading the way. The elbow down to the fingertips should paint a vertical line. The earlier in the pull you can accomplish this the better.

You also have a little claw-like look to your hand action. Keep the fingers fairly straight and inline with the wrist.

Your kick is a little wide at times...try to brush your toes and drop the amplitude a little so it doesn't cause as much drag. It's serviceable as is but it's something to work on.

Thanks - I appreciate it.
(I admit that in the pool I stick out like a triathlete - the watch, the toys, and the cap from a local race. No M-dot though...)
(And I'm not even going to go there on the runner v. triathlete. I know where I fall - in the more well fed camp. I probably look like a speed walker to the 15:xx 5k crowd)

I had noticed the hand and was working on that today.
Thanks for the comments on the elbow and the drill. I'll work on isolating that on Friday.

Ditto on the leading w/ the elbow. That one is harder to correct - do I then just push w/ the hand and then the elbow comes along vs. leading w/ the elbow?
I know I should not pull the elbow back, but the timing for when it moves back in the pull has proven challenging to work on.

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Cheers,
Sam

You're going to feel some water pressure on the hand and forearm but most of the "drive" of the pull is going to come from the big muscles (lats and to some extent shoulders). Once you "set" the EVF you'll want to maintain enough tone in the forearm and wrist to keep the paddle flat but the power in the pull should then focus to your upper body.

anyone have any thoughts on fixing that right hand? general thoughts on improving everything.. this is a 2.03 200 fr (yards) at end of workout.

Slacker.

You're obviously WAY faster than just about all of us but it is interesting what you do with that right hand...almost like a mini-scull when you start your stroke. Idk, maybe you're searching for the best purchase on the water. You're also crossing it under your body when you flip...I wonder if a straight pull at that point would help you flip faster.

Anyway, the only way I know to make changes (if you're serious about it) is to slow things down so you can focus on it. Get the kick board out and do some one-arm work so you can watch what you're doing. Swimming with a snorkel would accomplish the same thing. You've obviously put in a lot of yards so tweaking your stroke won't happen overnight.

No matter how good you get there's always something to work on...that's what keeps it interesting.

What are top 3 things that I should fix?

watch the last 1 minute of this video. this is the drill YOU should do, after watching your video. you swill well. but this would help you swim better.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

My $0.02 is as follows:

1. Left arm appears to crossover, which is causing you to serpentine through the water; VERY costly mistake to mistake to make in open water. Try using the lane line on the bottom of the pool as the absolute authority of where your arms should be as a drill. Make sure that the left arm especially, stays to the LEFT of the lane line. You want, above all else, for your muscular effort to take you forward and towards the end of the pool.

2. Your right hand appears to go a little haywire, i.e., winging to the right as compared to the left. The problem is that the left isn't doing the same thing. Fix it; both do the same thing and go the same angle, otherwise, this mis-match will also cause "snaking" through the pool. Efficient swimming involves symmetry of both sides in all strokes.

3. Early vertical forearm drills (high elbows); your elbows need to stay high while your forearm and hands grab the water.

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DFL > DNF > DNS

One thing I see and it is illustrated well in the beginning of "front underwater" is you are putting the brakes on with you right hand. See how on the right side on the front view you can see your palm. You are probably overreaching somewhat and letting you elbow drop. Try to pick up you tempo a bit and think of reaching over a barrel at the front of your stroke

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Your floating position or posture is pretty good- your legs aren't dragging too much. That's a great starting point.

1. Your back to front (kick to pull) timing is so far of out whack it looks like a jungle stroke of some kind.

First you need some co-ordination on the kick, not huge power or anything but just the ability to control your legs. Kickboard basics, xxx M per swim set.

Then with a snorkel I would start to integrate some small strokes. When you spear you need to be loading up your kick leg, heel at surface. Therefore when you pull, the leg on same side downstrokes, to offset the force of the pull. Takes time.

When you are co-ordinated, or actually can execute the FS stroke, then start to work on other stuff.

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

So I spent my time in the pool over the last 2 weeks basically working on the feedback, and can feel more soreness in my lats and deltoids so maybe there is some hope that my stroke is evolving.

That being sad, I took advantage of the pool adding some clarifier and did a few more videos.
To my eye (after watching a bunch of how to videos), it looks like my left elbow (w/ the watch) is still dropping.
I could have sworn that I was getting it up, but evidently not. Maybe I'm rotating the shoulder down towards the bottom of the pool too much, so it is impossible to keep the elbow up?

Also, I don't think I am extending too much on the reach, and maybe the head it too deep?

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Cheers,
Sam

Ok, hoping someone can shred my cred. Err, critique my swim vid . 1st attempt.

About me: not quite AOS. Learned the fundamentals on youth swim team, but probably quit by age 13.
Haven't really done much swimming in last 34yrs or so. Was a cyclist instead.
Started tri on a lark last summer. Couldn't swim more than 1 length of pool, freestyle.
Improved a fair bit since then. My goal for 2017 is to be better than MOP in the water.

Currenlty have weak kick --> started w/ no kick. Trying to work on ankle flexibility.
Things I see: head too high in the water. Left elbow height is ok, decent drive fwd with left to get a good catch.
But right elbow is low and no drive at all. Right arm just sorta goes fwd like a pontoon.

Thanks -

Total newbie to "structured" swimming, did plenty of paddling as a kid, but took up some triathlon training towards the end of last summer and did a couple of sprint tris. Very much fit the definition of adult onset swimmer. Really enjoying swimming in one way, but the grind it out attitude I can use for running and biking not paying off so getting frustrating at times now.


I'm just about a 2:00/100m swimmer over about 1,000m, but definitely feel like I need a lot more technique and finesse to progress. First time on video today so interesting seeing how much I'm rolling and haven't started the guppy plans yet, but that's my next step.





First simple self diagnosis at the moment is too much movement when breathing left/right. Would love some feedback about what and where to focus.

o Feel free to insult me, I won't get offended

I should be able to post the side view shortly

Looks pretty good from the top to me, but of course underwater is where all the magic(or disaster) happens...(-;

hard to tell, but you might be fishtailing a bit? otherwise, not a lot jumps out at me

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Your left arm and should seem to drop and pulls wider than the right. Watch the rear view when you are going away from the camera, your legs and butt are low in the water. You need to kick smaller.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

thanks

PR: your rotation only happens in the shoulders, the hips should be in line or even preferably be leading the rotation. The kick looks too big to me. Elbows a bit higher and less pull under the body on the left.

Here goes

https://www.dropbox.com/s/911lv5xfxabiwhw/GOPR7921.MP4?dl=0




I think I recognise a lot of stuff said to people above, notably the need to drive with the hips rather than just drag the lower body along, and to work on EVF.

I'm interested in peoples' thoughts on Jodie Swallow's stroke, which I've always liked for its rhythm (and the fact that she is often first out of the water : ) It seems to me like she deviates quite a lot from the Hackett style often referred to above, and doesn't seem to have much of an EVF at all. Ive certainly found a punchier stroke rate works better in OW

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/hiNkAMU8syI" frameborder="0" gesture="media" allow="encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

mate I've got nothing to say except that your fly leg is beautiful to watch - so rhythmical and powerful. would love to swim like that

Any comments welcome: and same video as my other thread:

Thank you:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1gwa9tgemxcdcc7/IMG_0138.mp4?dl=0

i have nothing to teach you. no doubt others might. but your technique is beyond the limit of my ability to find fault. a lot of readers on this forum would trade their swim technique for yours.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thank you Dan.

I'm wondering if I actually watch that long enough, if my brain might absorb something by osmosis... beautiful, something to aspire to. Thanks for sharing.

1. Drop your head to neutral--it's likely your elevated head position is exerting a constant sinking pressure all the way down your body line. (You may not notice any sinking because your body's natural response is to kick more, which elevates the legs at great expense. A neutral head is an energy-saving solution. It raises the legs without firing up big muscle groups.) I'm a big advocate of experimenting in a systematic way to determine if an adjustment is helpful, so try this: Swim a few 50 repeats using your normal head position for 6-8 strokes, then gradually allow your head to settle a bit more into the water. (Settle, not dunk.) Swim at least 6-8 strokes at every adjustment so you get a sense for how each change plays out. What do you notice? Are any head positions more comfortable (less strain, less awkward)? Does head position affect your sense of being level/horizontal from front to back? Does it reduce your feeling of drag in the water? Does it affect your sense of workload? Is the urge to kick reduced with a lower head position? Kicking consumes a ton of fuel and provides little propulsive value. You want to be mindful where you spend your energy.
One of the great challenges in coaching is to determine the cause-and-effect relationships among various moving parts. It doesn't take much variance in head position to facilitate a slew of other problems that few would think to trace back to head position. It's generally the first thing I correct in my coaching because it makes others errors simply disappear.
2. Your recovery is elbow-centric and compressed, and is likely creating some shoulder impingement. Think of the exit/recovery as more of a 'swing' than a 'lift.' If you lift your elbow to raise your hand you'll instantly feel how that locks up the shoulder. As your stroke is about to exit the water there should be a slight outward flare, which will open the recovery and allow for easier, smoother and quicker movement. Zipper-type drills, where you drag the thumb close to the body and focus on high elbows, are uniquely awful and useless, as you merely practice putting body parts in places where they don't belong while forcing joints into unnatural movements that cause injury. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that you've done those drills, or had folks advocate you do them. Please don't. Two of the images attached here: One shows Katie Ledecky's left arm as it just exits--not straight back, but slightly angled away from her legs; the other shows how generously wide and open her recovery is, which permits easy flow from back to front at no energy cost. It's not the height of the elbow, it's the open-ness of the recovery.
3. I'm a big advocate of eliminating unnecessary tension where it exists. Tension impedes flow and consumes energy, so we only want to engage when there is a pay off. That's why highly skilled swimmers look like they aren't 'trying.' They try when they need to, and turn muscles off when they don't. You look like you are 'trying,' especially on the right side recovery. What is the LEAST amount of effort and work you can get away with here? It's a recovery move, after all. Your hands also look a little stiff to me. I'd suggest a few trials like the head position experiment, working your way from tight hands to progressively softer ones. Limp obviously won't cut it, but most people are far more tense than is helpful. As soon as your hand tightens, tension will radiate up your arm and into your shoulders and neck. There's almost nothing humans do where the advice would be "make sure you have tight hands." Bonus image of Nathan Adrian's comfortably spread fingers (2012 Olympic champ / 100 free.)

Wow and thanks for such a thoughtful post.

1. Head: yes after the other comment my head looked high, I lowered it and felt my hips come up and float a bit more easily. Great tip. For pool swimming that will work great but not sure how in an open water race when you are always siting that will work but any progress here is great.

2. The elbow recovery, ok what I am hearing is my elbows are too high and I should take my hands away from my quads and 'swing' them around versus 'lifting' them up and over. Will give it a try.

3. Lastly limp wrists, will try that as well. I have tried the spread finger thing before but never felt natural.

Thank you again.

I'll chime in with a drill that, in my experience both teaching/coaching, and cleaning up my own stroke when I've spent time away from the water.

The drill is the "catch-up" drill. You simply leave your hand in the catch phase (straight out in front of you) until your other hand comes around and touches it (catches up to it) before you take the next stroke. You have to kick - hard - because you start to sink while your hand is out there waiting for the other one to catch up.

As long as you're not crossing you hand over the center line of your body, it seems to sort out many many evils. I'm not even sure why it's so effective, but it is.

It's a hard drill, it feels terrible, but when you stop and then swim normally, you'll notice almost immediate improvement. My theory is that it's forcing you to align your kicking with your stroke timing - because you simply have no choice. Rather like riding a fixed-gear - it's forcing proper muscle group recruitment timing whether you like it or not.

That is a phenomenal post on many levels. As always, it is kind, insightful, and humble, and that's why we love you.

It is also a brilliantly succinct example of the limitations of a corrective approach. "I can't identify a flaw, so I cant help you." is the essence of it, when "I won't identify a flaw, so I can help you." is a better place to begin, especially with a stroke that is as classically "good looking" as this one. It's nice to look nice, but if he's not busting out some seriously quick swimming from that pretty stroke, there is room for improvement.

First, I am curious what that stroke looks like in the last 50 of an all out 200/500/1000 time trial. Second, the feet don't seem to be doing much, and there is very little opportunity to evaluate kick timing. Third, until a process driven by passive fundamental development is undertaken, we don't know where this might end up. It's a very real possibility that both 'uglier' and faster are the result.

I'm happy to help, and appreciate what a complex puzzle this swimming thing is. Over the arc of my coaching career (almost 40 years) I've had to abandon nearly everything I used to 'know' to be true.

With regard to my suggestion with your hands--you just want there to be light separation between the fingers, not purposely spread 'jazz hands.' In some ways it's like figuring out how tightly to hold a baseball bat or golf club (two things I am horrible at): too loose and nothing happens, too tight and speed, power and accuracy suffer. The tension in your hands will (and should) fluctuate during various phases of the stroke--firming up as you establish a decent catch, releasing as you exit and recover. I think the human default is 'too tight,' just as it is for nearly everyone who picks up a golf club for the first time. For what it's worth, I think "feel for the water" really means "understanding how much force to exert, and when." It's not about brute strength as much as it is selecting the most effective pressure to promote forward movement with minimal slippage. Kind of like walking on an icy surface in sneakers: apply too much force and you lose traction/slip; apply too little and you don't advance at all.

Here's another point you may want to consider. I don't recall seeing underwater video of your stroke, so I don't know if this specifically applies to you, but it's something most people could improve: As you extend forward below the surface, how deep is your wrist at peak extension? As you reach forward with, say, your right arm, the right side of your body also rolls deeper into the water, which makes the right shoulder dip maybe 8-10 inches below the surface. Because we never want your wrist to be shallower/nearer to the surface than your shoulder, your wrist should also be at least that deep, and likely 1-4 inches deeper. In other words, your wrist should probably extend forward about 12-14 inches below the surface.

I've attempted to add images but for some reason mine just show up as links at the end of the post rather than embedded like so many others here. Sigh.

In the side view image you can see the wrist is a slight slope down from the shoulder/elbow. In the head on view the swimmer is purposely sneaking a look forward to confirm the orientation out front--she was observing a slight downhill slope to her wrist. The 'uphill' image shows what NOT to do--direct the wrist to a location shallower than the shoulder. Experimenting with this aspect of your mechanics can improve your horizontal balance and rotation, set up a better 'pre-catch' phase, and reduce strain on your shoulders/deltoids. It's a fairly simple thing to play with, and I find it inexplicable that so few swimmers (and coaches) seem to bother with it despite how clearly the orientation out front impacts what happens next.

But don't take my word for it ("because I said so" is a terrible answer to pretty much everything.) Run experiments as suggested in my earlier post, only work through a range of options in the front of your stroke from very shallow, maybe 1-2 inches below the surface, to increasingly deeper end points--6", 10", 14", etc. Again, perform enough strokes at every option so you can process how each choice plays out. I don't think I've run across a swimmer yet who runs that test and proclaims 'shallow' as a good option. It is almost universally the worst one.

Sorry if my posts are overly long--I'm an old timer accustomed to things like books, and complete sentences.

I hesitate to chime in when users named FindingFreestyle and StrokeDoctor have commented extensively, but...

It would appear that your hand has too much side-to-side motion during your pull. I think the current view is that the hand should trace as straight a line (viewed from above and relative to the pool, not your body) as possible from hand entry (in front of the shoulder, not the head as you seem to do a bit) to hand exit. The old S-stroke is no longer.

I recall finding an overhead view of Sun Yang in some championship, and his hand draws a perfectly straight line. Any sideways motion is wasted effort. (edit: here's a good example. Check out slow motion at 1:30)

Your stroke looks good from that limited view. You might want to stop trying to avoid hurting the water on hand entry: pick up the recovery arm speed and get that hand back into the water!

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Sorry, can't upload a quality video under 250kb

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#OldMenTriHarder
#SwimBikeRunLikeABadger
#SwimBikeRunLikeAngels

i'm not an expert. i'm a guy like you, who just fixed a bunch of my own problems. it turns out the fixes i hit on are commonly used, which gives me some comfort in my own methodology.

as i've written in the guppy challenge installments, there seems to me to be 2 kinds of drills:

1. the kind that magnify your flaw, forcing you to make a change out of necessity (or desperation).
2. the kind that erase your flaw., showing you what good form looks like when you employ it.

binding your ankles together magnifies your flaw. it keeps you from splaying your legs. in my opinion, for all but the best swimmers, you ought to do this with a swim buoy, to float your ankles or legs. the point of binding your ankles is to keep you from normalizing for that twisting motion pulling you out of line. if we don't float your legs you can't concentrate on fixing this isolated problem.

using a center snorkel helps erases or hides a flaw. it's my guess that if you swim with bound ankles and a buoy you'll fishtail your way down the pool. if you swim that way with a snorkel you probably won't fishtail, or not as much. this means it's your breathing that's causing this fishtail. we need to fix the thing you do when you breathe that causes you to fishtail.

some here might say, "no! it's the crossover!" however, i'll bet you dollars to donuts that your crossover happens when you breathe. you may well not have a crossover, just, when you jackknife and twist at the waist during your breathing this pulls your body out of line. your hand may well be right in front of your shoulder, but your upper body may be positioned at an angle, and not toward the end of the pool.

so, what i would do if i were you, i would fashion some way to bind and float your ankles. there are a number of buoys made for this. and i would buy a center snorkel. me, i use both. at the beginning of every workout, swim 6 x 50yd with bound ankles and a snorkel. then swim 6 x 50yd with bound ankles and no snorkel. just try to do whatever it is that keeps you from fishtailing. then, commence your workout. if you do that for 2 or 3 months much of your leg splay and crossover will be solved.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thanks Dan!

Sorry I was not able to upload a video. It looks like most are doing this through YouTube - so we'll try it again later.

After completing the Guppy Challenge, I promised some updates on TT's. For the 1000, on 2/1/2018 clocked a 23:16 - trying to maintain bi-lateral breathing as best as possible. On 2/20/2018 clocked a 21:20 - combination bi-lateral + single side taking in air when needed. This was a significant improvement - almost 2:00. But still not below that 1:00 / 50 yds I'm striving for.

SWOLF - 42 strokes + 51.6 secs / 50. Significant improvement to 93.8 from usually the upper 90's almost 100. Now if we can only translate that low 50's per 50 yards.

As to your suggestions. I've "created" a training plan for "post-Guppy Challenge" but am going to re-adjust it with the drills you have suggested to be completed after warm-up.

Somehow we'll get through this splaying issue and move on to the next technique problem.

OldMenTriHarder - and it takes longer to teach an old dog new tricks.....

here's my question. and i'm not going to pummel you if the answer is no. have you yet tried binding your ankles?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Yes - tied with the pull buoy as directed in the Guppy Challenge. Using chopped off old swim caps like rubber bands around strapped around the buoy and then slide your feet in. Fly through the water like Mark Spitz


No - not without it the pull buoy. Did you want me to try?

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#OldMenTriHarder
#SwimBikeRunLikeABadger
#SwimBikeRunLikeAngels

if you BOUND your ankles, and you swam without a buoy, and swam laps, i need to be taking swim lessons from you.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I finally got some videos of my swim. I am an AOS and this is my 4th season doing Triathlon. Last year I swam IMAC 70.3 in 40 mins with a ROKA wetsuit. In the videos below I am swimming about 1:54/100M pace, which is pushing a little, but not uncomfortable. I was working on my glide and body position this session. Any feedback is appreciated.

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2016 Specialized Shiv Pro Race 1x
2015 Specialized Venge

not bad at all! what i really like is the front half of your stroke. hand near the surface as you extend, and then your pull occurs with purpose, rather than hand drifting down in the water and then (as with a lot of folks) by the time the pull commences the hand is already halfway thru the stroke. so, nice going.

but you want to know how to get faster, not get a medal for how you're swimming currently. i think there are 3 things i'd work on if i were you.

- the first two are kick associated. you kick is by no means bad. but i'd like to see your feet a bit higher in the water, and i'd like to kick to be tighter. so, look at this video. really, just the first 30sec should do it.




TYR makes basically the same buoy. what i don't like about the TYR is that the ankle holes are too big. i don't know about the finis buoy, haven't tried it yet. but, you get the point. this will cause you to feel what it's like to swim with your feet: a) on the surface; and b) together. there are several methods to bind your ankles, and float your ankles, to achieve this. but these buoys are a pretty good illustration of what i'm talking about.


- i believe it's your left hand (whatever hand that's the side you breathe on) does a real scenic route through the water. your other hand is nice, a straight pull, no problem (tho i'd like to see your forearm square up to the water a bit more affirmatively). why does your left hand do those left and right movements during the pull? i'm going to hazard a guess that it's designed to correct your body's line thru the water. it's not anything you choose to do, it's an unconscious move to keep aligned. i don't know. kind of doesn't much matter. you just need to get rid of that. don't think about anything other than squaring up to the water and yanking as much water back as possible.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thanks Dan, ankle buoy ordered. I have noticed the pull of my left arm as kind of making an "s" in the water. maybe some more strength needed to get it to go straight back.

Thanks again

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2016 Specialized Shiv Pro Race 1x
2015 Specialized Venge

more strength is always a good thing. but i doubt that's the reason. the other hand doesn't do it. i think it's a stabilizing gesture. which sounds good. except that if we take away the need to stabilize with that gesture, then the hand (and arm) can focus on its job, which is to grab and hold water and pull your body over it.

you're weak in the last part of your pull. elbow drops. that is the result of a lack of strength. that hand movement is probably something else. the ankle buoy is going to help with this as well, because it'll expose anything you do that pulls your body out of alignment.

here was my warmup yesterday:

6 x 50yd with ankle buoy
6 x 50yd regular swim
3 x 100yd w/ankle buoy
3 x 100yd regular swim

then off to the rest of my workout. if you do something like this, you won't believe how much straighter, more aligned, you swim in your regular swims just after swimming with that ankle buoy. much easier to focus on proper hand and arm position and behavior during the pull.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

thanks. for the warm up are you swimming at a comfortable endurance or pushing the pace to get a little fatigued to expose the flaws more?

edit: swimming is so hard for me. for cycling i only have to think about staying low and pedaling hard!

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2016 Specialized Shiv Pro Race 1x
2015 Specialized Venge

make sure on both hands your fingers are closed. on your left hand your fingers are too relaxed. same with your wrist. keep your hand and arm at an even level. make sure elbow is up on every pull to catch more water. small fast kicks is key

Thanks for the advice. I never noticed my fingers before, I will now!

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2016 Specialized Shiv Pro Race 1x
2015 Specialized Venge

Swim rookie question - That finis axis buoy - doesn't it kind of defeat the purpose of immobilizing/banding the ankles since it also floats them??

Not really, since the purpose of the buoy isn't to teach you how to be level (i.e. it does that for you). It is to teach you how to swim without fishtailing from side to side.

We used to use a makeshift version of it on occasion back in the day, coach had us swim with the buoy at our ankles. Can't remember if we used bands with it to hold it on, or just squeeze with the ankles. I suspect it was a bit of both.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

warm-up. very comfortable. thinking mostly about technique, not speed. also, if you're not drilling it all the time you can get in more yards, and yards are key. volume is key. swimming will be easier if:

1. you do more of it;
2. you do it with others (masters team).

if you take a year and devote yourself to it, you make the jump, you're there, and you now don't have to worry about sucking at it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

i want the ankles floated. i'm not a fan of banding ankles without floating them unless you're so good of a swimmer that you're giving rather than soliciting advice here.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Matt Biondi made a point of being the slowest guy in warmup. If it worked for him.....

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I've done it both ways. If you don't use a band to hold it on you get more of a core workout since you're consciously having to squeeze the buoy.

Thighmaster

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Week 8 (today): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiF8AkrxXzY
Week 7: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tBRDyceuwI
Week 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq8xhrwQrwo

Original post with background and comments: https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6641082#p6641082

I didn't realize this thread existed and was a little late to the party. Thank you for putting these 10 weeks together!

Can we all post videos for feedback here or is this mainly for the Guppy challenge crew?

go ahead and post them.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

OK thanks Dan. Here we go....
History:
Got into triathlons 4 years ago as I could not swim and needed my club was offering swim lessons as part of their intro to triathlon course.
Prior to triathlon could not swim more than 50 m without needing to stop. Failed a 200 m swim test for my kids where I had 5 mins to do it in!
Injured my femur (fracture requiring major surgery) which put me out of action for a year.
Now swimming consistently 3 times a week, averaging 11-12K a week and back racing triathlons. Have 3 70.3's lined up for next season (no IM's, don't think my femur will hack it).
Started off at around 1:50/100 LCM, said to myself that I would be super happy if I ever swam an individual 100 at <1:40.
CSS pace is down to around 1:32-1:33/100 LCM.
I am not a natural swimmer, I worked bloody hard to get to where I am today and have been fortunate to have good coaches along the way, when I fractured my femur I thought this was an ideal time to make my major weakness a strength.
I get a regular video assessment every 3 months by my coach.
This is my most recent, after a warm up etc, this 100m was done in about 1:26 at about 7.5 RPE.
I only like to focus on 1-2 things at a time, otherwise I can't process it all. Key things we looked at were hand position during the the catch and pull as well as body position, trying to get my hips up and elevate my kick a little more.
I really want to crack that 1:28-1:30 for my CSS pace and continue to shave seconds off it.....(I don't test my CSS very often, more on what our squad is doing in each lane).
Fire away.......

the good part is that you've made a tremendous leap in the few years you've been swimming. amazing progress. but you know that already.

the only 2 things i'd say are:

1. if you're feet were a little higher, where you feel your feet breaking the pool surface, i wouldn't mind that;

2. you're hands are scribing an arc. a half circle. i'd rather they spend less time pushing down and more time pulling back. look at my favorite video of this (grant hackett) or anyone else of that ilk, and look how much of their pull is straight back rather than making that half circle.

most adult onset swimmers have: heads too high; feet too low (those 2 things go together); and this makes it hard to pull back rather than down in the front half of your pull. in order to pull back you'll eventually have to bend at the elbow. where and when, and how, that's sort of the trick to fast swimming. not that i have it mastered by any means. it's called by many names: jesus, buddha, high elbow anchor, high elbow catch, early vertical forearm, eywa. go forth, my son, and prosper.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Funnily enough Dan, I was going to link Grant Hackett's video and then I saw you mentioned it. It's great at showing what a perfect early vertical forearm should be. For a lot of people it's not about tweaking their current stroke, but really it's a fundamental change to how they swim and I guess that's why a lot of people don't get the EVF sorted. I'm not a coach and not very good at detailing how to fix flaws in your stroke, but getting your catch sorted will help enormously. There are a couple of drills out there that will help. I think one of the problems is, it can feel like you're initiating the catch quick early, but often you're not. Biomechanically it should feel very different, like your arm is working as 2 seperate units, the forearm is seperate, rather than the arm just working as one. Check the drill below. Do that drill, switch to slow freestyle, with PB or fins and watch your arms, try and keep the elbow near the surface, it will probably feel horrible and inefficient. Get used to that feeling and of the forearm working separately and go from there. Try and work hard at forcing your lead arm to stay high as well, it will drop naturally, don't let it. As Dan pointed out, your legs are dropping. Swim downhill. Like you are trying to swim freestyle to the bottom of the pool and like someone is pressing on your chest. Even if you exaggerate it at first, that's OK, you'll feel your feet pop to the surface. You might be swimming like a retard at this point, but you're on your way to fixing your body position. It's then a matter of tinkering around with this. Putting aside speed and efficency and just focus on getting the legs higher in the water. Like the EVF stuff, it will feel horrible and inefficent, but will get better and more nautral. Work on those 2.

Was that done at Claremont with Paul?






Grant Hackett

Thanks Dan, that is awesome advice.
Any tips on drills etc to get the legs higher? I am not sure how I compare when I have a wetsuit on in the open water, often I find my head position a little forward looking in the pool, otherwise I have a habit of smashing into the person in front of me! I think I need to either lead more or drop back more and focus on a better head position to help the butt and legs elevate.
Re the Catch.....I finally feel like I am just clicking with what I need to do and working on things, funny how with swimming it can take some things ages to really just click (I think being an adult learning to swim does not help).
I am really pleased with how far I have come but know I can continue to get better, just the law of diminishing returns potentially but I still feel like I could get down into the mid 1:20s probably with more tweaks etc.
Really appreciate the advice.

Thanks for this and the links, will have a good look through them today.
Yes-am lucky enough to swim at Claremont with Paul-are you local or know the squad etc??
I am really enjoying my swimming, but find I get overwhelmed at trying to change to many things at once, hence why I tend to do a formal assessment every 3 months or so, pick a few key things to work on and then try and lock those in, then repeat the process. Looks like I still have some "low hanging fruit" I can work on which is nice.
At least I don't feel like I look like the typical triathlete frog in a blender swim type anymore!
Cheers.

Yeah I'm in Perth too. Freestyle is very technical, it can be a bit overawing trying to listen to someone identifying all the flaws with your stroke.

I reckon you work on those 2 aspects, body position and evf and you'll be flying. It will take time, but if you persist you will reap the benefits. A lot of people get frustrated and give up. Commit to working on your swim, especially your catch, it might mean you swim like shit for a while and it feels like shit when you swim, but stick at it. Most don't. You've got the makings of a good stroke. And 1.32 CSS isn't bad. Where do you normally place in the swim.

Thanks, generally place in the top 10-20% or so of the swim so am happy with that but always keen to improve. A big gap from front pack to second/back of second pack usually, some uber swimmers out there!
Never thought I would get to where I am today so always have to remember to be happy with that, but always want to get better if I can!

Check your head

I know, I cringe when I see it in still frame like that!!
Still, it gives me something to focus on improving and I am sure it must be a worth a few more seconds per 100m off my CSS pace as well.
Will be trying it out during tomorrows session,
Cheers.

It looks like you have a case of crossover during your entry on your left arm, hard to tell if it's there on the right or at all with the angle that the video is taken at. Just be aware of hand placement while you are swimming and extending your arm straight out from your shoulder and not crossing your centre line.

Work on finishing your stroke. When you're standing on deck with your arms hanging at your side, run your thumb nail along your leg at it's natural resting position a bunch of times. When you are swimming be sure to finish your stroke back there.

Like Slowman and a couple others mentioned, it's a good idea to work on that early vertical forearm. That half circle isn't just going to slow you down you're actually going to risk injuring your shoulders if you start increasing mileage or just over time. The arm when held straight out is acting like a lever and you're increasing the stress on your shoulder needlessly.

Thanks for all the feedback. Was nice to jump into the pool and work on things this morning.
Was super happy to knock out an 800m PB in the middle of todays set (11:46 in a 50m LC pool, after a tough 2.4 km set prior to that), it takes time to lock these changes in but I am a slave to the gradual progression rule when it comes to swimming with hopefully the few odd jumps in performance as we go along.
Onwards and upwards from here, thanks again for all the advice.

Hey,

Would you guys mind taking a look at mine as well?

Swim history: (All SCY)
~3 years ago, first time in water, starting with the 0to1650.
Frustrated with the water, pretty inconsistent swims (maybe twice weekly, with monthly gaps).
Past year, started swimming more consistently, but low volume (3-4x week;; typical main set of 10-15x100, arriving at mid 1:20s, leaving at 1:40s).
Last month, began higher volume stuff following tower26 podcasts (3x 4-5k yards/week).
Initial jump in volume was rough (arriving at mid 1:30s with 30-60sec rest during fourth 1000, broken into 100s), but same workout getting noticeably faster.

Video was taken today, after an initial 4x250 as part of a main set:
First part is a under and above water 100 followed by a short front static.



Thanks

Flip turns would save you about two seconds per 100.

What did swim smooth day about your video?

Do you believe your arm should be at 120 degrees?

Yes, am definitely working on those!
Progress is admittedly slow, and thought it best to not have a digital recording.
Any thoughts on stroke, body positions? Other things to be conscious of?

Guys take a look and let me know what I'm missing. I know I should be much faster in the pool based on what I do on the bike/run.

Background:
-10+ years in triathlon mid pack swimmer who is started to get more serious about the swim portion the last couple of years
-Swim 2-3X per week getting in 8-9k. Two of the workouts are with a tri-group
-Typical sendoff is 1:40 to 1:35 SCY
-HIM 33min & IM 1:08 - i want to get below 30 mins for a half

Video is from a swim spa I grabbed a couple different angles to identify hitches in my stroke.



I want to get to the next level and swim is where I can make the biggest gains. Thanks for the feedback and tips.

I've continued to work very hard on improving my catch, and improve my body position. I still suffer from sinky legs, and prefer to swim with the buoy doing a lot of pulling, but for the past 3 weeks I've made a big effort to do more swimming without the buoy to see if I can improve my position.

I'm somewhere in the low 1:31-1:32 for a 20x100 with 10 second rest pulling. This does not translate a all to open water (I'm swimming the 1.2 miles in the 35-37min range) and that is where I want to improve. All advice is welcomed.




You can see a bit of where I'm coming from here:

I just looked at the last video, but looks like you are straight arm pulling, starting the pull too deep, not releasing the air trapped on your hand, and kicking too wide(up and down) with your toes pointed down..

There is more, but just pick one or two things that may be related and work on them for awhile. Trying to do too many things at once just confuses the body and brain, and nothing gets accomplished...

I don't have a front-view on this video, but from that angle yeah, I can see my arm is deep in the water. I'll see if I can focus on not going so deep. I think this may have been my way to try and not drop that elbow in the catch, if I go deeper, I can keep that elbow in-line with my wrist, but I guess this is not as powerful as a shallower pull.

Regarding my kick: it's useless. It takes me about 2:10 to kick a 100, I could probably kick it in 2:00, but I would have to be kicking all out. I've been doing side kicking this week, and I find that I love the position I get right after side kicking a 50. For the next 50 yards I feel really high in the water, and my kick feels efficient. Of course after the 50 it goes away very quickly.

So in that pic it looks like you are overreaching with your left hand and it is twisting you from the hips back, affecting your kick. And just for a visual from that pic, you elbow should be as close to the surface of the water as possible, see where yours is??

And kicking 2 minutes for a 100 is not really that bad, means you are getting some good propulsion. For comparison, Dan who started this thread, can kick 2 minutes for a 50. Good news for you two guys that wetsuits fix all of that and make the kick pretty irrelevant. Not to say you should not be able to swim well in a pool though, it all will transfer to race day in some fashion, so keep at it...

Hy guys,

Since any help is valuable, I would be glad with any recommendation!

Background: 33yrs, never went to a swim class in my childhood. I Swam 3-4 months back in 13'. Went back to swim class february last year. Last 70.3 in april was 34'. I think I'm able to swim now at 1'50-1'52/100m with a wetsuit. From where I came, it´s ok, but since I have to get better by myself (coachless), lets see some footage:

What I think: hips sinking, left hand entry poor, taking too long to start the catch.
Please note this: I can't swim like this for 30'. In this footage I was doing some 100s.

What was your pace in those videos?

Well, hard to tell, but acording to GC, second video was something like 1:32/100m and third one 1:41/100m. The first one was slower.

you do a lot of things right. you don't fishtail, your legs don't splay when you breathe, you've got a great catch and extend. your head position is pretty good. there isn't that much reason why you shouldn't be swimming faster. i would suggest the following:

1. i think i'd like to see your feet a little higher in the water.
2. while your head position is pretty good, if it was a little lower - if the water hit you more on the crown of the head instead of the forehead, and your breathing was a little more behind you rather than to the side of you, i think that would help you keep your feet higher, and help you get your hands more square to the water you're pulling.
3. i don't see why you aren't pulling more water. you look to me to have enough strength to specifically focus on this. beyond the two minor points i just listed, i would focus on how to grab the most water you can with the most arm surface you can apply to the task, pulling straight back. in other words, visualize your arm, from the elbow to the fingertip, square to the water - getting it square to the water as soon as you can - and then pulling straight back (rather than to the side, or down, or angled down). straight back.

and that's it. i'm out. i just gave you all the wisdom i'm qualified to give, and i had this off to those better equipped than i.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Wow.
Thank you very much for your patience in writing this.
Glad to hear that I do a few things right (a friend of mine said the same).

I'll focus on this for a while and let´s see how (if) i will improve.

There we go, after one year here again to get some feedback, lot's to do I know.

Is it too late to get in on this? I took some videos today.

Realise that this is a long dead post but hoping for some swim feedback if possible - if there's a better place to post please let me know!

Background: Been tri swimming for over 2 years now. Swam a fair bit as a kid but nothing competitive. PBs are 5.37 400m and 2.37 both SCM (I'm from the UK). I'm long limbed so have quite a long and lazy stroke. The videos below are at about 1:25/100m in an endless pool.

Any tips greatly appreciated!

WOW!! LOve this thread ! I wish I could take some videos at the public pool. Every time I pulled out the Iphone to film (me or the kids) all the lifeguards jump on me and tell me it's forbidden....grrrr!!

I should try and find some local swim coach to get a few tips...


Louis :-)

What I see as I stand in line at the grocery store.

You have a hitch in the pull phase.

Try to get your head more in line with the torso. Seems like it’s riding a bit high?

I’d prefer to see less catch up in the stroke, but it’s nit terrible.

Let your arms swing a little wider on the recovery phase. You’re very tight, which looks like it’s impeding your stroke.

Hand placement is generally good, other than the cocked wrist. Overall decent mechanics. An underwater side shot would be helpful.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Definitely not the best clip but I asked someone to film me last Monday to see if I fixed some issues from last winter.

Swim 2-3 times a week, on average 2,4-2,7k per session. Started 3 years ago, could not swim freestyle when I started.

Fastest times (all scm, all open turns):
25m: 15-16" (used clock instead of someone timing me)
50m: 34"
100m: 1'16", 1'12" with fins
200m: 2'53"
400m: 6'14" although there might be more left

I know I'm swimming a bit too much catch up stroke here, which is probably linked to breathing a bit too late. But when I swim quicker, the catch up style is gone. These are also "easy" to fix.

The thing I've been struggling the most with is my kick.. There's some rythm in there but there's a lot of room for improvement.. I can't wrap my head around on how to do a continuous kick, and I "hook" my left foot after every breath which is something I don't know how to fix. However when I'm swimming with fins or kicking with a board of when I swim hard/sprint, I don't hook my left foot and also I can get a bit more of a continuous kick.

Is that around 44 strokes per minute?

Amazing for only starting a few years ago. Ok, Body position is pretty good. On arm extension, you're lifting your wrists and pointing your fingers down for some reason. That creates drag on the tops of your hands. Drop your wrists and lift your fingers a little bit on the glide. You're also swimming with very noticeable pulses/surges. Slowing down and then accelerating over and over again is a time suck. That's like pedaling your bike with very noticeable pauses between left and right pedal strokes - smooth it out some by filling in the pauses with more catch that slows down your pull some so your other arm has time to catch up.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

I don't really count strokes but my Garmin gives an average of 45-50spm most of the time.


Thank you, much appreciated! I've been wishing my parents would've put me on a swim squad when I was little instead of martial arts haha. I didn't even notice the wrist thing, but indeed there's quite a dead spot in my stroke. Smoothening that out together with a better kick is the goal this winter :)

I would say your scissor kick is a balance issue because you only breath left. Force yourself to breath bilateral ( takes about 2 weeks ) , think about light flutter kicks and touching big toes. Get yourself a tempo pro trainer and raise your stroke rate to around 64spm this will cut out your glide.

Well, if there's any sport that everybody should do besides learning to swim (so you don't drown) it's probably martial arts. I was a bouncer at a pretty rowdy night club and the bouncers that had martial arts or wrestling background were amazing. I wouldn't consider it a total loss. :)

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----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

You are correct with the late breath. It's an obvious error with predictable consequences. Poor timing knocks you off balance, and your leg slides out to correct for that brief loss of stability. Adjust your breath timing and the leg issue should improve.

Don't confuse "improve" with "fix." There are other factors (head position, for instance) that influence what your leg does when you breathe. Breath timing isn't "the" fix. But it's a good place to start.

Diagnose the problem and address it head on. If you have a left side breathing problem, identify and fix the left side breathing problem. I don't understand what the right side has to do with it.

You need to sort your timing.
Swim one handed but breath on the opposite side.
Keep the non stroking hand by your side.
This will fix your roll timing and breathing issues.

For those people picking on stroke rate, I gotta say that I don't care about that. as long as you are comfortable changing stroke rates and can maintain whatever stroke rate you want for the distance, that's fine.

I'm more interested in the mechanics of that kick. it looks like even though you're doing a 2 beat kick, you're still overkicking. For distance swimming at lower intensities, you're generally better served by making the kick as minimal as you can. That doesn't mean don't kick, there's a balance there, but right now youre doing a massive kick with each pull. that just adds drag and doesn't really gain you much, especially with how inflexible your ankles appear to be. For distance swimming, I go for a feeling as if I'm just kicking from my ankles. In reality a lot more than that will move, but the idea is to keep the legs in line with your torso and just get a little bit of lift and rotation from your feet.

for the scissor kick, you're overrotating on the breath. so that's part of it.

If you're having difficulty with the 6 beat kick, a good one is to do a drill called 6 kick switch (there are other names too). kick on your side (bottom arm outstretched, top one at your side, for about 6 kicks (it can be more, doesn't really matter), then without breaking the kick rhythm, do one stroke (half a stroke cycle) then repeat on the other side. You can do it with a snorkel and fins to make it easier.

do a couple of lengths like that, then a couple of lengths where you take 3 strokes, then 5 strokes. just concentrate on keeping the legs in rhythm, don't worry about arms.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly