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Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race?
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So I am sitting under a tent here at Ironman Wisconsin waiting for the RD to come talk to me. Apparently, before I arrived at the finish, Mike Reilly made an announcement that there were two pros racing and they wouldn't be counted in the results. Does any one know if I can be removed from the results. Also, if I decide to turn my pro license next year, could I potentially accept a Kona slot? Although I didn't expect a finisher banner or hoopla, but to hear that 3rd place guy was called an Ironman Champion and overall winner seems a huge slap in the face. It has already caused a huge confusion with people after the race. "You were the winner". "well, not according to Mike Reilly but thank you :)"

Can anyone find and language in anything that would explain their actions?


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Found this on the results page just now:

Welcome to the 2015 IRONMAN Wisconsin

Please note that the 2015 IRONMAN Wisconsin is an age group only race.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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From USAT:
Athletes registered as elites/pros CAN compete in events with less than $5,000 prize purses but: o They are competing in events according to the age group rules of USAT, not pro/elite rules; o They cannot accept age group awards or be included in those results; they can be listed in the overall finish position and receive any prizes offered for overall placing.

Sounds like you have the latter agruement.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [adambeston] [ In reply to ]
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I never understand the language. I am not sure if that means events with less $5000. Pro compete in racing all the time they are pro races. Most pros do a local race now and then just to test the waters. Regardless, I have a message in to Charlie.


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Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: Sep 13, 15 16:16
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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From WTC

PROFESSIONAL STATUS:
Any athlete holding elite/ professional status from their National Triathlon Federation or an Ironman Professional Membership (as verified by elite/ pro status of an athlete’s National Triathlon Federation) is prohibited from racing as an AGE GROUP athlete in ANY sanctioned triathlon events anywhere in the world, where there is an elite/ pro wave, within the same calendar year.
Disqualification and potential sanction from WTC events, and forfeiture of any AGE GROUP World Championship qualifying slots may result for any athlete that has not adhered to this policy.

Originally from: http://www.ironman.com/...p.aspx#ixzz3lfCF2Lne
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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i'd be willing to chip in on one of these for you so there's no confusion on your status

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldnt think it would be a prize but usat rules would suggest that you are not in the age group results so therefore could not get a kona slot, only the overall (which would be good for your sponsors).

Curious did you use your Pro Mem to register for the race or pay cash?
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
So I am sitting under a tent here at Ironman Wisconsin waiting for the RD to come talk to me. Apparently, before I arrived at the finish, Mike Reilly made an announcement that there were two pros racing and they wouldn't be counted in the results. Does any one know if I can be removed from the results. Also, if I decide to turn my pro license next year, could I potentially accept a Kona slot? Although I didn't expect a finisher banner or hoopla, but to hear that 3rd place guy was called an Ironman Champion and overall winner seems a huge slap in the face. It has already caused a huge confusion with people after the race. "You were the winner". "well, not according to Mike Reilly but thank you :)"

Can anyone find and language in anything that would explain their actions?[/
quote]

I'd be interested in you explaining your actions?

You are a pro.

Why did you race in an age group only race?

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [stringcheese] [ In reply to ]
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They just removed the pro part of the race this year and it is his hometown.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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my honest commen sence opinion:


you going there for support to the event is a nice gesture like you go to a fundraiser 5km. you going for a overall win, i think it s not the right things to do. Similar to a adult showing to a kids race to win.

you can't take the age group spot as your current license is pro.

Next year, go as a age group and you can go after the title.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram
Last edited by: jonnyo: Sep 15, 15 8:14
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [adambeston] [ In reply to ]
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Little more than my hometown. I went to school, I currently live about block a way from the finish. I regularly swim in the lake. I always run on the lakeshore path, and if I do ride my bike it is usually on the Ironman course. The run course goes by all 3 of my college residences.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Little more than my hometown. I went to school, I currently live about block a way from the finish. I regularly swim in the lake. I always run on the lakeshore path, and if I do ride my bike it is usually on the Ironman course. The run course goes by all 3 of my college residences.
maybe there's a local women's-only event that you can try to win next weekend
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [MeltingPot] [ In reply to ]
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I think you have it wrong. There isn't any prize money above $5000 - that is why it is not a pro race. If pro's aren't allowed to race then put in place the necessary processes in place to disbar pros from racing. $800 is a lot to pay. I could have just done the bandit thing I guess and not pay anything. I'm officially a sucker.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know the rules but I did watch you and the other first few finishers come down the finisher's chute. I realize this isn't likely much consolation but it was really cool to see a name I see a lot on ST be the first person to cross the finish line regardless of how the formal results are posted on the internet. Great work!
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ssmith2] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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For those of us who didn't see the finish and were trying to follow on the athlete tracker - what did you "go"? Rudy Kahsar is shown on the results as competing in "MPRO". Did you beat him? http://www.ironman.com/...y=2015#axzz3ldm4TYyq

Not trying to pour salt in your wounds here, just trying to understand what happened.

Cheers

I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Melanie McQuaid raced Victoria 70.3 as a local pro despite the race being a non-pro race. She was allowed to start with the first wave, men's under 30, and celebrated as the overall female winner. She is listed in the results as FPRO.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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This is a bit of a touchy subject,

IE I think it was mentioned last year that it would only be a matter of time before this situation happened (eliminating pro purse at races but when would a pro win OA in a "non pro" race?)

Basically I would say there is a difference between "no pro purse" or "field" VS "AG only"

It appears WTC is using those terms interchangeably with out clarification. So…basically check your WTC pro e-mails in regards to this….am I correct in reading that you just paid the normal fee like everyone else?

Regarding Kona for next year I would say (my opinion) is no, you currently hold a pro licence so cannot get a KQ AG spot. Not sure what the rules are now but 12 years ago you used to have to race a year with out AG awards (no KQ) when transitioning from pro to AG.

In terms of OA win… if you paid the 800$ like everyone else my opinion is yes, this is sort of stupid…and a pretty predictable situation if you look at the threads from last year.

Congrats on the win and sorry that nobody has felt it immediate or proper to clarify the situation before hand.

Maurice
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Purely from the point of view as a pro, what incentive do you have to do the race? I feel like racing an ironman where there was no chance of prize money would not be in your best interests given that ironman races typically require a ton of recovery. Would your efforts be better spent at a race where you could make a living?
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [krez] [ In reply to ]
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krez wrote:
Purely from the point of view as a pro, what incentive do you have to do the race? I feel like racing an ironman where there was no chance of prize money would not be in your best interests given that ironman races typically require a ton of recovery. Would your efforts be better spent at a race where you could make a living?

In fairness to Thomas, there is a lot more to life than making money and certainly for most smart and intelligent people, choosing to be a pro triathlete is not really about the money so they already are doing this sport for other reasons. There are much better ways to win money than through race earnings, so Thomas likely had many intangible reasons for racing in his hometown that we can't convert into a business decision.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Updated results show Thomas winning in 8:59:59 and Rudy Kashar 2nd. Local media has reported Edward Schmitt (3rd) as the overall winner. Such a strange situation.

I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [tallswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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Well it looks like they finally made things right, way to go Thomas!

Owner of a few Speed Concepts since 2011.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
krez wrote:
Purely from the point of view as a pro, what incentive do you have to do the race? I feel like racing an ironman where there was no chance of prize money would not be in your best interests given that ironman races typically require a ton of recovery. Would your efforts be better spent at a race where you could make a living?


In fairness to Thomas, there is a lot more to life than making money and certainly for most smart and intelligent people, choosing to be a pro triathlete is not really about the money so they already are doing this sport for other reasons. There are much better ways to win money than through race earnings, so Thomas likely had many intangible reasons for racing in his hometown that we can't convert into a business decision.

I get that, and that's why I asked him what his motivation was. Clearly he did not act in the best interest of being a "pro," hence my curiosity. Recovering from an ironman that nets no professional gain whatsoever warrants some inquiry.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [krez] [ In reply to ]
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krez wrote:
Purely from the point of view as a pro, what incentive do you have to do the race? I feel like racing an ironman where there was no chance of prize money would not be in your best interests given that ironman races typically require a ton of recovery. Would your efforts be better spent at a race where you could make a living?

I am curious to his response- it is a likely a sponsor is located near by, sponsors could pay more than prize money. And as for recovery, I do remember in german fellow who did 3 IM events in a row with all 2:50 and under runs.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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so they didnt Comp your entry? they took your 800$? and they registered you as a pro in a race with no pro field? This is strange and comfusing? i would say the race organiser did something wrong here.....

if they registered you as a pro...i guess you won the race overall, and the pro category.....

i thought you race as a special local personality....comp and for support of your local race. if not...why did you race?

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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I don't understand why this wasn't clarified before the event if there were any concerns. What did the professionals who entered expect (I am not being flip just don't understand). It was understood there was a not pro race yet they took entry fees from them.

The pros can't compete as age grouper so basically they were not racing but just participants.
Last edited by: Pat0: Sep 13, 15 20:36
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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When did you register?
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [krez] [ In reply to ]
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Curious, I do finish in the money at races. But what percentage of pro do you think actually finish in the money? Then what percentage of pros make money after travel? I think the majority of the pros end in the red.

For me, as I said before.


- If I did compete and maybe win, I wanted to see what it would be like to compare and contrast pro field races versus non pro field races and the post race experience. I have finished Louisville 3, 3, and 2 so I feel I have good feeling about finishing on the podium as a pro. As a prior automation engineer, I always found it funny when customers just wanted to solve their problems without every experiencing problems. In order to truly solve problems you need to understand problems inside and out. At some point after my career, or maybe even during, I would like to continue to crusade for problems with pros or the sport and general and there is no better way to understand the problems. One at the forefront that comes up on here is the question of do we really need pros.

- I have had 30+ wins in my career and my dad and mom have never seen me once and this gave them an opportunity to do so.

- I live a block away from the race. So travel, logistics are a no issue.

- This race is very nostalgic to me. This was my first race way back in the day, and I have done it every year except for 2011 when I went for pro card at Rev3 Cedar Point which was the first day.

- There is always something to learn - experience is important in this sport.

- Every swim start is so important, every Ironman swim is so important as well in general and I am always working on my swim. Any time I have a chance to do an hour swim in field I try to take it.

- For the love of the game - unlike my peers, I started as age-grouper and worked my way up. Sometimes it is nice to go back and experience racing in a mass field with a mass swim start.

- I switched to a single speed setup and I like to test out race equipment in races where the risk reward is low.

- I have been tweaking my race nutrition incorporating some Base products into the line-up and again I like to test when risk reward is low

- I have had a knee injury since around Aug 2nd. I was not able to complete IMMT and only did 38 mins painfree on the bike. Outside of the knee injury I had been in the best shape of my life. Prior to the race the knee injury had been creeping up about 90-105 minutes into training rides so IMMT was quite a shock that I only lasted 38 mins. I took a few weeks off post IMMT. Yes I had only been biking for about 12 days. My first semi real ride (low Z2) was last Tuesday. I raced an Olympic - it was a non pro race - I race a lot of non-pro races - that was Saturday. I had no expectations on this race, I didn't think my knee would hold up for the whole ride but I wanted to at least start and I was planing to stop as soon as I had pain which never occurred.

The reason for doing the race are endless. I could write another ten reasons but it has gotten late, and it took a few emails and meetings just to get my name to show in the results and I want to make sure I answer a few more responses on here.


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Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: Sep 13, 15 21:46
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Pat0] [ In reply to ]
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Pros compete at regular races all the time. Regardless, pros can win the overall title. However, I am sure there are plenty of pros that are not even removed from the age-group awards for simply lack of awareness.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks. Those all sound like pretty good reasons to me. Congrats on the win.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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I just responded to a previous reply that answer the questions why. But yes the registration was paid for. I was ok with how things went down until about 30 minutes after the race. This is after Rudy Kahsar had already finished as well. He was racing as amateur, and from talking with him, he communicated that he no longer had an elite license and was competing as amateur. They still assigned him bib #1 and he finished second. However that is when the 3rd place guy came in. Mike Reilly, called him an "Ironman Champion and the winner of the 2015 Ironman Wisconsin race". They had the finisher banner, had him sign it, did the big post race hoopla and what not, but what kind of blew my mind is that apparently Mike Reilly said something to the affect, again, this was before I came in "~the first two athletes who are coming in a pro and they WILL NOT be listed in the results". This created a ton of confusion with people coming up after the race - I will leave it at confusion.

Through the run I had a lead biker that had a placard that read "1st place male". And again, I was going for the overall win and nothing less. Had I been told sure, you can race, but we will strip your results, and if you win we will ignore your win, and by the way please pay the entry fee then I would have said - thanks but no thanks.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Regardless of all the problems, it looks like you had a very good race. Was the 8:59:59 your best time at IM Moo??? Obv hard to compare one year to another due to varying weather conditions but just curious. Also, speaking of weather was it cold up there today??? It was around 52 here this AM with PM high around 70, with part sun, part clouds, so i would guess it must've been pretty chilly up there:)

Congrats on your excellent race!!!


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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From the start there should have been no issues if they let you register
* Racing for overall placement only
* Known to you that AG slots / prizes not available since you hold a pro card

Pretty straight forward ... simple

Happened at Vineman 70.3 (when it was Vineman Half Ironman) when they had a hiatus with no pro field racing (maybe 2005 or 6?) ... 2 pros raced, raced in the first wave, racing for overall only

-------------------------
Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't find it chilly but I was actually burning up on the swim - my core temp was thru the roof. I had to do the pull down on the suit at least ~60 thru the course of the swim. It isn't my best time but I definitely shut it down and just cruised the last 8 miles or so. On paper it wasn't my best race, but pro race tend to be faster if you can help each other out and also push one another. This was more getting back to my roots of an age-grouper and racing myself. I did like slipstreaming on the bike!!! I will mention that given my injury pre-IMMT and lack of training I was totally blown away by fitness. My last decent bike ride was Aug 2 or 3rd.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [stringcheese] [ In reply to ]
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Stringcheese,

I answered your questions in another reply to another person asking the same ?. I will add that why not race. I race non-pro races all the time. It may not be a pro race, it doesn't mean pros can compete. How many local pros out there do their local olympic or sprint - it just so happens that my local race is Ironman Wisconsin.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [tallswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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which is part of why I was confused. I knew Rudy wasn't actually a pro and so I figured they had just removed the results. It turns out there was some sort of glitch. It may have had a fact that I registered on Friday. Regardless, the results are in there now.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
I didn't find it chilly but I was actually burning up on the swim - my core temp was thru the roof. I had to do the pull down on the suit at least ~60 thru the course of the swim. It isn't my best time but I definitely shut it down and just cruised the last 8 miles or so. On paper it wasn't my best race, but pro race tend to be faster if you can help each other out and also push one another. This was more getting back to my roots of an age-grouper and racing myself. I did like slipstreaming on the bike!!! I will mention that given my injury pre-IMMT and lack of training I was totally blown away by fitness. My last decent bike ride was Aug 2 or 3rd.

Sounds like perhaps your body just needed some rest??? Anyway, congrats again on an excellent race, all things considered.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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the Clarification of pro/ age grouper is the problem.

I know age groupers that train more then pros and pros that have more going on then even busy age groupers.

The thing here is there are fast triathletes and slower triathletes every race should be pros can race and there just isn't any money at the finish line.

The race is a race and first one across is the winner no matter the title. if an age grouper won an Ironman against a pro field damn right they would announce him or her the winner, he just gets no money because he didn't check the box on registration.

I pro doing a local race can do a lot more of them then going to Wales this weekend and finishing top 5. It is better locally in the tri community ,with sponsors, and you come out with more $$$ then 5 th in wales after you put in travel $$$.

I know you want the win because before they removed the pro field it was a goal likely so you did it Thomas.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [tallswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
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Well said about all. Btw, I am in the results. Apparently I was told I was never showing in the tracker and there was a glitch with a late entry. But I agree with you, far too many pros traveling to far to gain little experience, suffer fatigue, financial setback and nothing to gain when they would be better off staying age-grouper or at least racing closing to home.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [krez] [ In reply to ]
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Yep Ironman are super tough on the body, but I knew wanted to swim hard and bike hard and just try to take it easy on the run. Rudy being his first Ironman I really expected him to explode a bit more than he did. If anything it was me exploding on the swim, I should have known better than wearing a full-sleeve. It will be interesting to see my recovery. Part of my knee issue was changing my cleats so maybe I am over the knee issue but I am crossing my fingers. If I can start at Chatt maybe I will.

-TG


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the info. There have been a variety of pros start non-pro races. Again, all a pro race means is there is a purse and special rules for the pro in regard to rules. I am in the results now, apparently there was some sort of glitch.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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just curious.....

your the local guy....finish first, and mike Reilley didn't come do a interview after your cross the line?

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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You were never on the tracker today and I got confused when Rudy was shown on the tracker listed as MPRO.

I completely understand your list of reasons to race, and if I were in your shoes I probably would've made the same choice, maybe someone is kicking themselves for not joining you at check-in Friday...

What was your registration process? Did you go through the same process as age-groupers on Friday? Was there any clarification with volunteers/officials that you race with an elite card?

So now I am curious, what is the difference of an elite (Pro) racing an age-group field versus an age-grouper who has qualified to race as an elite (Pro) in an age-group field? Thoughts? Several athletes at IMWI and various other IM's have qualified to race elite (pro) but choose not to.

Nice kit change in T2 ;)

For the record I see no fault in your decision today, its the same as every time you race local and no one has a problem with it.
Last edited by: bcagle25: Sep 13, 15 22:32
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin -" Removing Pros From The Race? [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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mauricemaher wrote:
This is a bit of a touchy subject,

IE I think it was mentioned last year that it would only be a matter of time before this situation happened (eliminating pro purse at races but when would a pro win OA in a "non pro" race?)

Basically I would say there is a difference between "no pro purse" or "field" VS "AG only"

It appears WTC is using those terms interchangeably with out clarification. So…basically check your WTC pro e-mails in regards to this….am I correct in reading that you just paid the normal fee like everyone else?

Regarding Kona for next year I would say (my opinion) is no, you currently hold a pro licence so cannot get a KQ AG spot. Not sure what the rules are now but 12 years ago you used to have to race a year with out AG awards (no KQ) when transitioning from pro to AG.

In terms of OA win… if you paid the 800$ like everyone else my opinion is yes, this is sort of stupid…and a pretty predictable situation if you look at the threads from last year.

Congrats on the win and sorry that nobody has felt it immediate or proper to clarify the situation before hand.

Maurice

I think it is exactly what you in terms of communication. For instance if you look on the Ironman Wisconsin "Live Blog" they use the phrase "Please note that the 2015 IRONMAN Wisconsin is an age group only race"

I think what they mean to say is that "we do not have a pro purse for this race and therefore we will not be doing a live blog following the pro race." A race is either a pro race and it has >5000 or more in the US in which case only pros can compete for the money. Or the race is a non pro race in which case anyone can compete, but age group awards can not go to the pros. If they want to bar pro racers from racing then fine, just communicate that, but that isn't what happened here. The race entry fee was paid.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
tallswimmer wrote:
Updated results show Thomas winning in 8:59:59 and Rudy Kashar 2nd. Local media has reported Edward Schmitt (3rd) as the overall winner. Such a strange situation.


Agreed, this is how an article reads:http://host.madison.com/...0d-c6364ad8bf5b.html[/quote[/url]]

Thomas:

I respect you and what you contribute to this site. I think in this case you are missing a bigger picture:

1) could everyone/anyone sign up on Friday as you did. Meaning, could any AGer sign up on Friday
2) bigger picture, while I have seen all your reasoning (including your "home town" event:)
a) there are Ager's who now sign up for AG only events, like this, Louisville etc. with the expectation they will be competing against only other Ager's and therefore have the opportunity to "break the tape". They train for months with this expectation.
b) IMWI is either AG only or include a PRO race. There are AG'ers who didn't participate this year because they couldn't "compete" against pros. I don't know Thomas Brunold at all (never met him). I watched him help a AGer this morning on the side of the road with a bike issue (and I was impressed/humbled). I do know at least one other AGer who didn't do WI this year, but would love to line up against you (and I believe would beat you) if they knew you were going to be there and if they were given the opportunity to sign up as late as Friday.

Sorry but you are a PRO and as such you should focus on the PRO races as designated.

I will say more importantly I don't think IM should have let you in in the first place. If they designate this an AG race it should be just that.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [bcagle25] [ In reply to ]
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bcagle25 wrote:
You were never on the tracker today and I got confused when Rudy was shown on the tracker listed as MPRO.

I completely understand your list of reasons to race, and if I were in your shoes I probably would've made the same choice, maybe someone is kicking themselves for not joining you at check-in Friday...

What was your registration process? Did you go through the same process as age-groupers on Friday? Was there any clarification with volunteers/officials that you race with an elite card?

So now I am curious, what is the difference of an elite (Pro) racing an age-group field versus an age-grouper who has qualified to race as an elite (Pro) in an age-group field? Thoughts? Several athletes at IMWI and various other IM's have qualified to race elite (pro) but choose not to.

Nice kit change in T2 ;)

For the record I see no fault in your decision today, its the same as every time you race local and no one has a problem with it.

Full kit change in T2 was certainly not helping with confusion that is for sure. I went thru a similar registration process on Friday as an age-Grouper, but because it was so last minute I had to go to the "solutions table" to get it done. It was handled by the Ironman staff that has checked me in at many races and everyone was informed and knew I was a pro and registering as a pro. That is why they gave me #2. In addition, I checked with Tom Z (Ironman Operations) on Friday before registering to make sure it was ok and also with the race director Ryan Richards. I first started with our pro liaison but I never heard back from before registration closed so went to Z and Ryan.

As to your last question this example comes up. Great examples include guys like Adam Zucco, Dan Stubelski, Ryan Guiliano (former pro), and others. It is there choice not to race pro. The downside is they can't race for prize purse at races with >5000 in the US. But they can go to Kona, AG Nats, etc and compete for world titles without having to go head-to-head with Jan Frodeno, Javier Gomez, and Sebastian Kienle.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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jonnyo wrote:
just curious.....

your the local guy....finish first, and mike Reilley didn't come do a interview after your cross the line?

Nope, funny thing is that I am by no means Jordan Rapp with a microphone but I am very comfortable for the most part speaking and I had a great story lined up about why I was racing. Instead there was absolute nothing - I mean crickets.

Btw, because I had such a comfortable lead, I started my hands slaps way early, like nearly a mile out, and slapped everyones hand I could. It was quite a bit of work by the finishing and prob lost a minute just in backward momentum. I do really try to smile, look people in the eye, and enjoy the moment. If I am not being realistic someone can castrate me on here and tell me otherwise. In addition, last year racing head to head with Big Sexy, the race came down to 16 seconds - that is two in sight of each other for the crowd. I don't think there was nearly the fan support at Louisville than on State Street - amazing support. And the finish too and then as soon as I crossed the line I was so blown away. Nothing. No media, no interview, absolutely nothing. And this race is NOT a rolling start. It is still a mass start so you know who the first one across the line is.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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It was nice seeing you out there today, even if it was somewhat of a surprise! (nice bib btw) Congrats on the win...

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
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ironmayb wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
tallswimmer wrote:
Updated results show Thomas winning in 8:59:59 and Rudy Kashar 2nd. Local media has reported Edward Schmitt (3rd) as the overall winner. Such a strange situation.


Agreed, this is how an article reads:http://host.madison.com/...0d-c6364ad8bf5b.html[/quote[/url]]

Thomas:

I respect you and what you contribute to this site. I think in this case you are missing a bigger picture:

1) could everyone/anyone sign up on Friday as you did. Meaning, could any AGer sign up on Friday
2) bigger picture, while I have seen all your reasoning (including your "home town" event:)
a) there are Ager's who now sign up for AG only events, like this, Louisville etc. with the expectation they will be competing against only other Ager's and therefore have the opportunity to "break the tape". They train for months with this expectation.
b) IMWI is either AG only or include a PRO race. There are AG'ers who didn't participate this year because they couldn't "compete" against pros. I don't know Thomas Brunold at all (never met him). I watched him help a AGer this morning on the side of the road with a bike issue (and I was impressed/humbled). I do know at least one other AGer who didn't do WI this year, but would love to line up against you (and I believe would beat you) if they knew you were going to be there and if they were given the opportunity to sign up as late as Friday.

Sorry but you are a PRO and as such you should focus on the PRO races as designated.

I will say more importantly I don't think IM should have let you in in the first place. If they designate this an AG race it should be just that.

Pros have always been able to do non-pro races - the majority of triathlons in the US are non-pro races. IMWI is not an AG only race. This is a branding thing to let people know there will be no "pro" coverage and is the point of confusion that is somewhat being discussed by a few others in this thread. It doesn't mean that pros won't be in the race - to the contrary there have been quite a few pros race these races already and I suspect we will so more in the future.

BTW, this is no different than strolling down to my local olympic or sprint and racing - it just so happens Ironman Wisconsin is my local race. And I can guarantee there are quite a few age groupers who have put in more training than me for the race, especially if you just count bike/run. In addition they are more focused and more tapered for the race. And Yes, AGers could sign up for the race.

But to get back to where you are going. The majority of pros do not even finish in the money at races so what you are going to have here in the near future is really good genetic athletes returning back to the age group. This will happen because a certain pool of IM Pros saw the WTC membership as a good deal. With race selection going down this year and seemingly next, I know more athletes will opt to forgo their WTC membership because there are not as many races with reasonable travel costs. In addition, a lot of pros saw Challenge as a way to survive still but with those races being cut as well the writing is on the wall. The pros are NOT needed and some athletes will go back to racing as amateur. They are likely just as talented. Will go faster because they won't have to deal with the same pro rules or tactics and will be able to race their own race. They will break tapes, take kona slots, and ultimately piss off a small % of top age-group athletes.

Funny you should mention Thomas. I love Thomas. I talk to him nearly day at the SERF where he and I swim. What makes you so passionate that you think he would one - are my previous results dismissed?

But this get to my points. I am injured, I have been injured. I gave every opportunity for an AG to step up to beat me today. I made a huge mistake going with a sleeved wetsuit swim today. I biked 4:43 straight from out of the top ten in the swim with a couple of days of riding which started 12 days ago. In those 12 days my long ride was about 30 miles. I was so out of shape that last week at an Olympic I biked so slow then could only manage 7:07 to run my slowest 10k ever because I was so short on bike fitness. I have gone faster at Wisconsin two weeks post a high-heat 3rd place Louisville. I could have gone faster today but I didn't need to. I think one thing people forget is that I am going for the opposite of a PR. I wanted a win with the slowest time possible - not the fastest. I am not in search of a PR. My motto is just get the job done with the least amount of damage and residual fatigue as possible.

I saw Thomas on the course today as well and I said to hello to him. I would be curious to know who the other age-grouper is. And I don't personally know any Ironman athletes who said
they wouldn't race because it wasn't a pro race. I think that is a great gesture, but life is too short. Live your life. If you want to race, race.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Uncle Phil] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Did you sign up via a community fund spot?
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
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I don't understand why some people (not many, but some) believe pros should only race other pros in pro races. In this sport, pros do not have access to anything (equipment, training, nutrition, coaching, etc.) that age groupers do not. In fact, there are many age groupers with tri budgets that exceed most of the pros' budgets. So, they don't really come to the race with any unfair advantage (unless you count genetics....but where do you draw the line there?) If it bruises egos that a 38 year pro wins 35-39, get over it. He was the fastest 35-39 year old.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hmmm.....Thomas, your results are up, but you're missing some run splits. Are you sure you didn't "lose" your chip for a while?
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [deh20] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Revised...


deh20 wrote:
I don't understand why some people (not many, but some) believe women should only race other women in female races. In this sport, women do not have access to anything (equipment, training, nutrition, coaching, etc.) that men do not. In fact, there are many women with tri budgets that exceed most of the mens' budgets. So, they don't really come to the race with any unfair advantage (unless you count genetics....but where do you draw the line there?) If it bruises egos that a 38 year female wins 35-39, get over it. She was the fastest 35-39 year old.

Does your logic still hold?

There is a reason there are some classifications.....

@ TG - IMWI has been sold out for nearly a year. how could an AG'er have signed up in Friday?

Solid win yesterday.....the kit change confused me. I wasn't tracking any results online and when I saw you on the run, it was only your number that clued me in!

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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I do believe there were IM fund spots open, hence my question.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [adambeston] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
adambeston wrote:
From WTC

PROFESSIONAL STATUS:
Any athlete holding elite/ professional status from their National Triathlon Federation or an Ironman Professional Membership (as verified by elite/ pro status of an athlete’s National Triathlon Federation) is prohibited from racing as an AGE GROUP athlete in ANY sanctioned triathlon events anywhere in the world, where there is an elite/ pro wave, within the same calendar year.
Disqualification and potential sanction from WTC events, and forfeiture of any AGE GROUP World Championship qualifying slots may result for any athlete that has not adhered to this policy.

Originally from: http://www.ironman.com/...p.aspx#ixzz3lfCF2Lne

I take that as. Pro cannot compete as an AG athlete if they have an elite license. So while there isn't prize money or a pro field, you can still race, but will remain exempt from the amateur results.

Thomas, you've uncovered a very interesting anomaly. For all purposes, you were there, you had a timing chip, you have a recorded time, but you cannot be included in the results.

I think the best solution is for a pro category to remain, but still no points or prize money and your finish result is "official".

I think ultimately, IM would rather have their "race horses" competing at paying events and would strongly discourage them from "wasting" their energy racing non-pro events.



You supposed to be a professional, this isn't; supposed to be fun. I guess you didn't get the memo. :)


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
ironmayb wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
tallswimmer wrote:
Updated results show Thomas winning in 8:59:59 and Rudy Kashar 2nd. Local media has reported Edward Schmitt (3rd) as the overall winner. Such a strange situation.


Agreed, this is how an article reads:http://host.madison.com/...0d-c6364ad8bf5b.html[/quote[/url]]

Thomas:

I respect you and what you contribute to this site. I think in this case you are missing a bigger picture:

1) could everyone/anyone sign up on Friday as you did. Meaning, could any AGer sign up on Friday
2) bigger picture, while I have seen all your reasoning (including your "home town" event:)
a) there are Ager's who now sign up for AG only events, like this, Louisville etc. with the expectation they will be competing against only other Ager's and therefore have the opportunity to "break the tape". They train for months with this expectation.
b) IMWI is either AG only or include a PRO race. There are AG'ers who didn't participate this year because they couldn't "compete" against pros. I don't know Thomas Brunold at all (never met him). I watched him help a AGer this morning on the side of the road with a bike issue (and I was impressed/humbled). I do know at least one other AGer who didn't do WI this year, but would love to line up against you (and I believe would beat you) if they knew you were going to be there and if they were given the opportunity to sign up as late as Friday.

Sorry but you are a PRO and as such you should focus on the PRO races as designated.

I will say more importantly I don't think IM should have let you in in the first place. If they designate this an AG race it should be just that.


Pros have always been able to do non-pro races - the majority of triathlons in the US are non-pro races. IMWI is not an AG only race. This is a branding thing to let people know there will be no "pro" coverage and is the point of confusion that is somewhat being discussed by a few others in this thread. It doesn't mean that pros won't be in the race - to the contrary there have been quite a few pros race these races already and I suspect we will so more in the future.

BTW, this is no different than strolling down to my local olympic or sprint and racing - it just so happens Ironman Wisconsin is my local race. And I can guarantee there are quite a few age groupers who have put in more training than me for the race, especially if you just count bike/run. In addition they are more focused and more tapered for the race. And Yes, AGers could sign up for the race.

But to get back to where you are going. The majority of pros do not even finish in the money at races so what you are going to have here in the near future is really good genetic athletes returning back to the age group. This will happen because a certain pool of IM Pros saw the WTC membership as a good deal. With race selection going down this year and seemingly next, I know more athletes will opt to forgo their WTC membership because there are not as many races with reasonable travel costs. In addition, a lot of pros saw Challenge as a way to survive still but with those races being cut as well the writing is on the wall. The pros are NOT needed and some athletes will go back to racing as amateur. They are likely just as talented. Will go faster because they won't have to deal with the same pro rules or tactics and will be able to race their own race. They will break tapes, take kona slots, and ultimately piss off a small % of top age-group athletes.

Funny you should mention Thomas. I love Thomas. I talk to him nearly day at the SERF where he and I swim. What makes you so passionate that you think he would one - are my previous results dismissed?

But this get to my points. I am injured, I have been injured. I gave every opportunity for an AG to step up to beat me today. I made a huge mistake going with a sleeved wetsuit swim today. I biked 4:43 straight from out of the top ten in the swim with a couple of days of riding which started 12 days ago. In those 12 days my long ride was about 30 miles. I was so out of shape that last week at an Olympic I biked so slow then could only manage 7:07 to run my slowest 10k ever because I was so short on bike fitness. I have gone faster at Wisconsin two weeks post a high-heat 3rd place Louisville. I could have gone faster today but I didn't need to. I think one thing people forget is that I am going for the opposite of a PR. I wanted a win with the slowest time possible - not the fastest. I am not in search of a PR. My motto is just get the job done with the least amount of damage and residual fatigue as possible.

I saw Thomas on the course today as well and I said to hello to him. I would be curious to know who the other age-grouper is. And I don't personally know any Ironman athletes who said
they wouldn't race because it wasn't a pro race. I think that is a great gesture, but life is too short. Live your life. If you want to race, race.

I thought I would give you a different perspective. You are the one who seems to feel passionate about this.

I brought up Thomas as an example. As I said, I do not know him. I am not going to bring up the other in order to get more names into your fight.

Again, I thought I would try to bring a different perspective to your long and passionate thread. If you think that being a professional racer and then jumping into a race like IMWI at the last minute and riding and running around the course as the first person that the 1000's of spectators see and cheer for is the same as jumping into a local sprint so be it.

My perspective is you took that attention away from a deserving AGer.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Doesn't the clarification that "where there is an elite/pro wave" mean that in this instance since there was no elite/pro wave Thomas was free to race in this event?

PROFESSIONAL STATUS:
Any athlete holding elite/ professional status from their National Triathlon Federation or an Ironman Professional Membership (as verified by elite/ pro status of an athlete’s National Triathlon Federation) is prohibited from racing as an AGE GROUP athlete in ANY sanctioned triathlon events anywhere in the world, where there is an elite/ pro wave, within the same calendar year.
Disqualification and potential sanction from WTC events, and forfeiture of any AGE GROUP World Championship qualifying slots may result for any athlete that has not adhered to this policy.

Originally from: http://www.ironman.com/...p.aspx#ixzz3lfCF2Lne
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Triathletetoth wrote:
the Clarification of pro/ age grouper is the problem.


I know age groupers that train more then pros and pros that have more going on then even busy age groupers.

The thing here is there are fast triathletes and slower triathletes every race should be pros can race and there just isn't any money at the finish line.

The race is a race and first one across is the winner no matter the title. if an age grouper won an Ironman against a pro field damn right they would announce him or her the winner, he just gets no money because he didn't check the box on registration.

I pro doing a local race can do a lot more of them then going to Wales this weekend and finishing top 5. It is better locally in the tri community ,with sponsors, and you come out with more $$$ then 5 th in wales after you put in travel $$$.

I know you want the win because before they removed the pro field it was a goal likely so you did it Thomas.



Actually, no they don't. There have been a couple of instances of Age Groupers finishing with faster times than the Pros - Drew Scott before he turned pro is the one that sticks in my mind, but there have been others - but everyone went to great pains (protesting a bit too much for my liking) to clarify how they hadn't really "won" because Pro vs AG is a different race, slightly different start-lines, weren't going head to head, etc, etc. Hell, they even refused to announce that the first finisher at the first IM without a Pro field was the winner!
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [HoustonTri(er)] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe a simpler way to put it. Without a purse, pros effectively become amateurs for that event. However because of their pro status, they are still ineligible for age group awards and WC qualifying slots.

However, it seems like they should be required to follow that same registration requirements and limitations. I'm curious is a foundation slot was used or a pro slot was used.

IM has really created an ugly situation with having non-pro races. I'm OK with tiered points and purses, but having an event that large and collecting $2MM+ in entry fees, seems to me like you ought to still have an elite field.

Maybe USAT needs to come up with a new rule. USAT sanctioned events with lets say 1500+ entrants must have a elite wave and a purse =< $5000.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
I do believe there were IM fund spots open, hence my question.

But IM Foundation slots aren't $800......

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
motoguy128 wrote:
Maybe a simpler way to put it. Without a purse, pros effectively become amateurs for that event. However because of their pro status, they are still ineligible for age group awards and WC qualifying slots.

However, it seems like they should be required to follow that same registration requirements and limitations. I'm curious is a foundation slot was used or a pro slot was used.

IM has really created an ugly situation with having non-pro races. I'm OK with tiered points and purses, but having an event that large and collecting $2MM+ in entry fees, seems to me like you ought to still have an elite field.

Maybe USAT needs to come up with a new rule. USAT sanctioned events with lets say 1500+ entrants must have a elite wave and a purse =< $5000.

WTC has grown races in past decade far faster than top-end talent has developed, so naturally it makes sense that they limit the races that they pay out for. That makes sense.

What does not make sense is to call an event an "AG only race". That's not the case. What is the case is that an event has no pro purse. So, a pro can enter and pay the $800 entry fee (on top of their annual WTC pro membership) and a pro can race. But, a pro cannot win money and a pro cannot win an AG. However, a pro certainly should exist in the results and the pro should certainly be considered the race winner. A pro, for whom WTC accepted into the race and collected an additional $800 entry fee from, should not be eliminated from the results as if they were a bandit or DQed for course cutting. It's pretty simple. The pro races for overall win only, and the absolutely zero money that comes with said victory.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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deh20 wrote:
I don't understand why some people (not many, but some) believe pros should only race other pros in pro races. In this sport, pros do not have access to anything (equipment, training, nutrition, coaching, etc.) that age groupers do not. In fact, there are many age groupers with tri budgets that exceed most of the pros' budgets. So, they don't really come to the race with any unfair advantage (unless you count genetics....but where do you draw the line there?) If it bruises egos that a 38 year pro wins 35-39, get over it. He was the fastest 35-39 year old.
I think pros should be able to race everyone and anyone they want.

And the reason the age groupers budget usually exceeds the pros is because they have a high paying job. The pros choose to have triathlon as their job and accept with it the pay, sponsors etc that they can eek out which admittedly is not that high for most.

On the other hand the pros also have a lot more time to train as this is their full time job (for most).

But certainly not an "unfair" advantage. We all make our choices and line up our priorities which hopefully are fulfilling to us or at least we can live with them.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
Revised...


deh20 wrote:
I don't understand why some people (not many, but some) believe women should only race other women in female races. In this sport, women do not have access to anything (equipment, training, nutrition, coaching, etc.) that men do not. In fact, there are many women with tri budgets that exceed most of the mens' budgets. So, they don't really come to the race with any unfair advantage (unless you count genetics....but where do you draw the line there?) If it bruises egos that a 38 year female wins 35-39, get over it. She was the fastest 35-39 year old.


Does your logic still hold?

There is a reason there are some classifications.....

@ TG - IMWI has been sold out for nearly a year. how could an AG'er have signed up in Friday?

Solid win yesterday.....the kit change confused me. I wasn't tracking any results online and when I saw you on the run, it was only your number that clued me in!

First, don't quote me and change what I wrote. Bad etiquette.

Second, I really don't understand what you're trying to say. Do women want to race against men? If you're trying to argue that the difference between a pro triathlete and an amateur triathlete is comparable to the difference between a man and a woman, then I just don't agree with your analogy.

This world is filled with people that are better than we are, and the scale is mostly continuous. Drawing a line at some arbitrary level and saying someone is too good to compete with average people makes no sense. The reality is, Keinle doesn't want to come out to my local race, but if he did, I'd gladly "race" him.

Again, I do see a distinction where the pro has access to different means than the average athlete. If Thomas indeed got an entry to a sold out race with no pro field because he was a pro, then I argue he had an unfair advantage. I'll wait for him to weigh in on that issue.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
WTC has grown races in past decade far faster than top-end talent has developed, so naturally it makes sense that they limit the races that they pay out for. That makes sense.


What does not make sense is to call an event an "AG only race". That's not the case. What is the case is that an event has no pro purse. So, a pro can enter and pay the $800 entry fee (on top of their annual WTC pro membership) and a pro can race. But, a pro cannot win money and a pro cannot win an AG. However, a pro certainly should exist in the results and the pro should certainly be considered the race winner. A pro, for whom WTC accepted into the race and collected an additional $800 entry fee from, should not be eliminated from the results as if they were a bandit or DQed for course cutting. It's pretty simple. The pro races for overall win only, and the absolutely zero money that comes with said victory.


I get that we want to say that Thomas won the event, but what happens if he wants to put "2015 IMWI Winner" on his resume or collect sponsorship incentives from the win? Obviously that's not what he did the race for, but if you open up the possibility, then some pros will try to race the "non pro" races for the win. Obviously sponsors will wisen up to the game if this kind of behavior becomes widespread (ie: payout now contingent on it being a pro race), but the big risk is that WTC will lose some of the value (however defined) it hopes to gain by consolidating the pro races.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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timbasile wrote:
kny wrote:
WTC has grown races in past decade far faster than top-end talent has developed, so naturally it makes sense that they limit the races that they pay out for. That makes sense.


What does not make sense is to call an event an "AG only race". That's not the case. What is the case is that an event has no pro purse. So, a pro can enter and pay the $800 entry fee (on top of their annual WTC pro membership) and a pro can race. But, a pro cannot win money and a pro cannot win an AG. However, a pro certainly should exist in the results and the pro should certainly be considered the race winner. A pro, for whom WTC accepted into the race and collected an additional $800 entry fee from, should not be eliminated from the results as if they were a bandit or DQed for course cutting. It's pretty simple. The pro races for overall win only, and the absolutely zero money that comes with said victory.


I get that we want to say that Thomas won the event, but what happens if he wants to put "2015 IMWI Winner" on his resume or collect sponsorship incentives from the win? Obviously that's not what he did the race for, but if you open up the possibility, then some pros will try to race the "non pro" races for the win. Obviously sponsors will wisen up to the game if this kind of behavior becomes widespread (ie: payout now contingent on it being a pro race), but the big risk is that WTC will lose some of the value (however defined) it hopes to gain by consolidating the pro races.

Honestly, I don't care about Thomas in the least. (no offense Thomas, but I don't know you and have no particular affinity for you vs any other pro)

WTC has to pick. Either forbid pros from racing and stop collecting their money. Or let them race and let them win. You can't have it both ways. As far as I'm concerned the guy won the damn race and can put IMWI winner on his resume. If WTC doesn't want him to claim IMWI winner, then don't let him race. You can't collect his money, let him race, and then effectively DQ him.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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deh20 wrote:
Hmmm.....Thomas, your results are up, but you're missing some run splits. Are you sure you didn't "lose" your chip for a while?

I know this comment is in jest, but I was actually volunteering at the Picnic Point turn around from 1-4pm. This is right where the 8.8 and 21.9 timing mat was located. It wasn't working at all to my knowledge. No "beeping" noises when the athletes would run over them. I don't remember the exact time, but it must have been after 3pm, two race officials came and changed the timing mat.

I can say that Thomas ran over them twice, and was looking very strong with a big smile on his face. Great job.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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deh20 wrote:
Power13 wrote:
Revised...


deh20 wrote:
I don't understand why some people (not many, but some) believe women should only race other women in female races. In this sport, women do not have access to anything (equipment, training, nutrition, coaching, etc.) that men do not. In fact, there are many women with tri budgets that exceed most of the mens' budgets. So, they don't really come to the race with any unfair advantage (unless you count genetics....but where do you draw the line there?) If it bruises egos that a 38 year female wins 35-39, get over it. She was the fastest 35-39 year old.


Does your logic still hold?

There is a reason there are some classifications.....

@ TG - IMWI has been sold out for nearly a year. how could an AG'er have signed up in Friday?

Solid win yesterday.....the kit change confused me. I wasn't tracking any results online and when I saw you on the run, it was only your number that clued me in!


First, don't quote me and change what I wrote. Bad etiquette.

Oh, please....I clearly note that it was revised.

Quote:
Second, I really don't understand what you're trying to say. Do women want to race against men? If you're trying to argue that the difference between a pro triathlete and an amateur triathlete is comparable to the difference between a man and a woman, then I just don't agree with your analogy.

Why not? As I clearly showed in my revision, it applies equally to women vs. men as Pros vs. AG. The only difference is the same, really....genetics. Why not just have an overall race, no age groups, classifications or divisions based on gender?

And the question is not "do women want to race against men" (although some do, I'm sure), or more accurately in this case "Do AG want to race against Pros:, the question should be "why would Pros (or men) want to race against AG'ers (or women)?

Quote:
This world is filled with people that are better than we are, and the scale is mostly continuous. Drawing a line at some arbitrary level and saying someone is too good to compete with average people makes no sense. The reality is, Keinle doesn't want to come out to my local race, but if he did, I'd gladly "race" him.

Again, I do see a distinction where the pro has access to different means than the average athlete. If Thomas indeed got an entry to a sold out race with no pro field because he was a pro, then I argue he had an unfair advantage. I'll wait for him to weigh in on that issue.

See above....why not have a single race devoid of any distinctions? Every classification is an "arbitrary" line, it would seem.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
WTC has to pick. Either forbid pros from racing and stop collecting their money. Or let them race and let them win. You can't have it both ways. As far as I'm concerned the guy won the damn race and can put IMWI winner on his resume. If WTC doesn't want him to claim IMWI winner, then don't let him race. You can't collect his money, let him race, and then effectively DQ him.


I agree. They kind of put him in a quandary in terms of his status as a racer and it is unfair both to him and to the other competitors taking part that this grey zone was allowed to exist. It couldn't have been fun or fair for the top AG either.





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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [alir] [ In reply to ]
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You can talk about the mass start vs waves debate for a long time. but I would say drew won the race but no money. He didn't get the card and check the box to also be able to compete for money that the only thing making some one pro a card then a box check or else we are all doing the same thing at different speeds.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
Why not? As I clearly showed in my revision, it applies equally to women vs. men as Pros vs. AG. The only difference is the same, really....genetics. Why not just have an overall race, no age groups, classifications or divisions based on gender?

And the question is not "do women want to race against men" (although some do, I'm sure), or more accurately in this case "Do AG want to race against Pros:, the question should be "why would Pros (or men) want to race against AG'ers (or women)?

Quote:
This world is filled with people that are better than we are, and the scale is mostly continuous. Drawing a line at some arbitrary level and saying someone is too good to compete with average people makes no sense. The reality is, Keinle doesn't want to come out to my local race, but if he did, I'd gladly "race" him.

Again, I do see a distinction where the pro has access to different means than the average athlete. If Thomas indeed got an entry to a sold out race with no pro field because he was a pro, then I argue he had an unfair advantage. I'll wait for him to weigh in on that issue.


See above....why not have a single race devoid of any distinctions? Every classification is an "arbitrary" line, it would seem.

The difference between a man and a woman is not arbitrary, it's specifically defined by the presence of a Y chromosome, different anatomy, and (perhaps most importantly for athletic performance), different sex hormones. Apples and oranges.

And as I said, if Thomas' pro status got him into a sold out race that had no pro field (that I could not have registered for last-minute as an amateur) then I do have an issue. Not an issue with Thomas, but with WTC / race director.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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deh20 wrote:
Power13 wrote:
Why not? As I clearly showed in my revision, it applies equally to women vs. men as Pros vs. AG. The only difference is the same, really....genetics. Why not just have an overall race, no age groups, classifications or divisions based on gender?

And the question is not "do women want to race against men" (although some do, I'm sure), or more accurately in this case "Do AG want to race against Pros:, the question should be "why would Pros (or men) want to race against AG'ers (or women)?

Quote:
This world is filled with people that are better than we are, and the scale is mostly continuous. Drawing a line at some arbitrary level and saying someone is too good to compete with average people makes no sense. The reality is, Keinle doesn't want to come out to my local race, but if he did, I'd gladly "race" him.

Again, I do see a distinction where the pro has access to different means than the average athlete. If Thomas indeed got an entry to a sold out race with no pro field because he was a pro, then I argue he had an unfair advantage. I'll wait for him to weigh in on that issue.


See above....why not have a single race devoid of any distinctions? Every classification is an "arbitrary" line, it would seem.


The difference between a man and a woman is not arbitrary, it's specifically defined by the presence of a Y chromosome, different anatomy, and (perhaps most importantly for athletic performance), different sex hormones. Apples and oranges.

And as I said, if Thomas' pro status got him into a sold out race that had no pro field (that I could not have registered for last-minute as an amateur) then I do have an issue. Not an issue with Thomas, but with WTC / race director.

Soooo....the difference is "genetics", then?

But fine, we'll leave the issue of gender aside for the moment....using your logic, we should remove all AG classification orders.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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deh20 wrote:
Power13 wrote:
Why not? As I clearly showed in my revision, it applies equally to women vs. men as Pros vs. AG. The only difference is the same, really....genetics. Why not just have an overall race, no age groups, classifications or divisions based on gender?

And the question is not "do women want to race against men" (although some do, I'm sure), or more accurately in this case "Do AG want to race against Pros:, the question should be "why would Pros (or men) want to race against AG'ers (or women)?

Quote:
This world is filled with people that are better than we are, and the scale is mostly continuous. Drawing a line at some arbitrary level and saying someone is too good to compete with average people makes no sense. The reality is, Keinle doesn't want to come out to my local race, but if he did, I'd gladly "race" him.

Again, I do see a distinction where the pro has access to different means than the average athlete. If Thomas indeed got an entry to a sold out race with no pro field because he was a pro, then I argue he had an unfair advantage. I'll wait for him to weigh in on that issue.


See above....why not have a single race devoid of any distinctions? Every classification is an "arbitrary" line, it would seem.


The difference between a man and a woman is not arbitrary, it's specifically defined by the presence of a Y chromosome, different anatomy, and (perhaps most importantly for athletic performance), different sex hormones. Apples and oranges.

And as I said, if Thomas' pro status got him into a sold out race that had no pro field (that I could not have registered for last-minute as an amateur) then I do have an issue. Not an issue with Thomas, but with WTC / race director.

There is a lot of reason that can get special individual in a sold out ironman race. The first thing you need to know is a WTC event is never ''sold out''. And it s like this in every aspect of life. I personally think a local pro that support a race is a good enough reason to give him a pass in. WTC as done that for years as it s good publicity etc. Well, in most case! seems like this one was a little controversial!

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ssmith2] [ In reply to ]
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ssmith2 wrote:
I realize this isn't likely much consolation but it was really cool to see a name I see a lot on ST be the first person to cross the finish line regardless of how the formal results are posted on the internet. Great work!

x2

IMO one of the best things about out sport is everyone is out there at the same time, same conditions, etc. as the top athletes. You can't run out on the court and shoot warm up with LeBron. It is also great for the sport that people can interact with the front of the field. Except for one and dones, most athletes want to improve their times, and finish position. For the most part, you can't just walk up to pro's in other sports to ask how they improve X or their opinion on Y. You, more than most, make yourself easily accessible on the internet and in person.

I watched you come off the bike with a huge lead and got to see you come around on your second lap of the run when I was volunteering at the run special needs. I was stoked to see you out there. Regardless, you raced very well on one of the tougher courses we have and should be proud of the result.

"Just don’t abandon everything you’ve ever learned because of something someone said on the internet." - Eric McGinnis
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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I have actually quite a bit of knowledge as to some details in this instance, as well as some conjecture and some opinion. I doubt that the slot was actually "paid" for as to money changing hands into the Ironman coffers. I was approached for a comp entry. To my knowledge it was not obtained before friday at the earliest. The fact that a trademark kit that has been worn for the past number of years in every race was swapped in T2 for a certain other vendor should give people a clue as to what most likely happened. I have not seen any actual admission in the thread of who actually "paid" for the slot.

My OPINION on what was done was that it caused a massive degradation of his and the "pro" field value. What if a few of the local pros decided they also wanted a shot at a local victory in front of the home crowd? Then their friends say "hey; great chance for a training day". Then we have a pro field with no money available and then why would IM offer a pro payday again? My firsthand experience with my business of professional photography is that I have no more "professional" work in the triathlon field, as many of the multitude of people give away their images which are 'good enough" for tri advertisers and pros. What if Venus Williams, Jordan Speith or another pro athlete decided to go back to their college and play a match? Fair? They would NEVER devalue their brand which they work so hard to build.

If a statement was to be made, the best and most appropriate thing would have been to step off the course at the Capitol Square and walk back home. Statement made, integrity intact. I thought it was a poor decision, and did little to enhance value, but that's simply MY opinion.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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Base Nutrition paid for his entry.

+++

As the longest standing hometown Pro in Madison, WI I choose not to race because:

#1 - Ironman races are too hard on my body to just go out and do one.

#2 - It felt like I would be stealing the AG thunder. OF COURSE the Pro's are going to beat the Age Grouper's in an Ironman. Duh!


TG raced because he wanted to win. He did. Is it the same? Of course not.

I disagree with the decision to race and believe those reading this are likely split 50/50 on whether it was a good decision to do so. However, it is too bad he wasn't allowed to celebrate what he technically should have been allowed to do according to the rules and on paper.

Rudy was screwed the most in this case though. He was a legit age grouper. It was over-looked because when he registered last year, he actually held a Pro license. This year he did not have one and has raced AG all year. He was the top amateur at Boulder 70.3. He got zero publicity or recognition for his accomplishment yesterday.

+++

My personal opinion is that an AG race should NOT allow Pro's to participate at all. Thus the name "Age Group race."

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Blakebecker] [ In reply to ]
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Blakebecker wrote:
Base Nutrition paid for his entry.

+++

As the longest standing hometown Pro in Madison, WI I choose not to race because:

#1 - Ironman races are too hard on my body to just go out and do one.

#2 - It felt like I would be stealing the AG thunder. OF COURSE the Pro's are going to beat the Age Grouper's in an Ironman. Duh!


TG raced because he wanted to win. He did. Is it the same? Of course not.

I disagree with the decision to race and believe those reading this are likely split 50/50 on whether it was a good decision to do so. However, it is too bad he wasn't allowed to celebrate what he technically should have been allowed to do according to the rules and on paper.

Rudy was screwed the most in this case though. He was a legit age grouper. It was over-looked because when he registered last year, he actually held a Pro license. This year he did not have one and has raced AG all year. He was the top amateur at Boulder 70.3. He got zero publicity or recognition for his accomplishment yesterday.

+++

My personal opinion is that an AG race should NOT allow Pro's to participate at all. Thus the name "Age Group race."


BINGO! ^^
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [krez] [ In reply to ]
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krez wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
krez wrote:
Purely from the point of view as a pro, what incentive do you have to do the race? I feel like racing an ironman where there was no chance of prize money would not be in your best interests given that ironman races typically require a ton of recovery. Would your efforts be better spent at a race where you could make a living?


In fairness to Thomas, there is a lot more to life than making money and certainly for most smart and intelligent people, choosing to be a pro triathlete is not really about the money so they already are doing this sport for other reasons. There are much better ways to win money than through race earnings, so Thomas likely had many intangible reasons for racing in his hometown that we can't convert into a business decision.


I get that, and that's why I asked him what his motivation was. Clearly he did not act in the best interest of being a "pro," hence my curiosity. Recovering from an ironman that nets no professional gain whatsoever warrants some inquiry.

There's more to racing than prize money, especially since the prize money in this sport is so negligible anyway. And winning an ironman - whether it's a JV race or a real one - still nets social media coverage. Look at the front page of this site - they treat winners of the age group ironmans as 'champions' and provide them with interview coverage, etc.

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [snackchair] [ In reply to ]
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snackchair wrote:
krez wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
krez wrote:

There's more to racing than prize money, especially since the prize money in this sport is so negligible anyway. And winning an ironman - whether it's a JV race or a real one - still nets social media coverage. Look at the front page of this site - they treat winners of the age group ironmans as 'champions' and provide them with interview coverage, etc.

I think there's QUITE a difference from an age grouper winning a race versus a pro winning an age group race. Social media may turn ugly too. USA beating Ghana in basketball os not much of a positive vibe.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
Soooo....the difference is "genetics", then?

But fine, we'll leave the issue of gender aside for the moment....using your logic, we should remove all AG classification orders.

Never made it past high school biology, but I'd wager that the genetic differences between a man and a woman are orders of magnitude greater than the difference between me and Keinle. But let's agree to disagree on that point.

The AG classification warrants debate. There is no denying that athletic potential globally follows some sort of curve. Key to our debate, though, is that pros suffer the same or similar decay with age as amateurs. Is anyone arguing that Ken Glah (now 51?) shouldn't be allowed to compete in 50-54 because he was once a pro? [That dude rocks....29 consecutive Kona finishes???]

Personally, I think that endurance sports, and especially triathlon have put too much emphasis on age, though. I'd rather see far fewer AGs, something like under 25, 25-39, 40-49, etc. I think that's unlikely, though.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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jonnyo wrote:
There is a lot of reason that can get special individual in a sold out ironman race. The first thing you need to know is a WTC event is never ''sold out''. And it s like this in every aspect of life. I personally think a local pro that support a race is a good enough reason to give him a pass in. WTC as done that for years as it s good publicity etc. Well, in most case! seems like this one was a little controversial!

That's where I have an issue, because it's no longer a level playing field. I know it's naive to think that it doesn't happen, but I always imagine that it's the celebrity or CEO that won't affect the results that gets special treatment. Then again, I'd much rather a real athlete get special treatment than a celebrity anyway.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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deh20 wrote:
Power13 wrote:
Soooo....the difference is "genetics", then?

But fine, we'll leave the issue of gender aside for the moment....using your logic, we should remove all AG classification orders.


Never made it past high school biology, but I'd wager that the genetic differences between a man and a woman are orders of magnitude greater than the difference between me and Keinle. But let's agree to disagree on that point.

The AG classification warrants debate. There is no denying that athletic potential globally follows some sort of curve. Key to our debate, though, is that pros suffer the same or similar decay with age as amateurs. Is anyone arguing that Ken Glah (now 51?) shouldn't be allowed to compete in 50-54 because he was once a pro? [That dude rocks....29 consecutive Kona finishes???]

Personally, I think that endurance sports, and especially triathlon have put too much emphasis on age, though. I'd rather see far fewer AGs, something like under 25, 25-39, 40-49, etc. I think that's unlikely, though.

OK, now your logic is really falling apart....you say you don't want 'arbitrary" lines defining classifications, but are ok with some 'arbitrary" lines, as long as they comprise larger age groups?

How is that any less 'arbitrary" then saying "meet these performance standards and you are a professional"?

the point of ANY race classification system is to roughly group competitors of (in theory) similar performance capabilities. Personally, I would prefer a Category system over a AG system for triathlon, but I understand and accept why they do it based on age (just like running races).

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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deh20 wrote:


Is anyone arguing that Ken Glah (now 51?) shouldn't be allowed to compete in 50-54 because he was once a pro? [That dude rocks....29 consecutive Kona finishes???]

I think he's gunning for Kona consecutive number 32 next month :)

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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ggeiger wrote:
I think there's QUITE a difference from an age grouper winning a race versus a pro winning an age group race.

Why? The distinction between pro and age group is nonsense anyway. Many pros are basically age groupers anyway - work full time jobs and race on the side. And many age groupers are basically pros - train full time and work on the side.

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
OK, now your logic is really falling apart....you say you don't want 'arbitrary" lines defining classifications, but are ok with some 'arbitrary" lines, as long as they comprise larger age groups?

How is that any less 'arbitrary" then saying "meet these performance standards and you are a professional"?

the point of ANY race classification system is to roughly group competitors of (in theory) similar performance capabilities. Personally, I would prefer a Category system over a AG system for triathlon, but I understand and accept why they do it based on age (just like running races).

No, I think AG is almost as arbitrary as pro vs. amateur, that was my point, and why I think there are too many AGs. The performance vs. age curve is pretty flat for long distance racing over the range of say ~25 - 45 years old, so why not remove that [arbitrary] distinction for those ages?

After ~55, though, it falls off pretty fast, so it again becomes apples and oranges (or men vs. women), and you really need a different category.

The category system works well in cycling because of the group dynamics. Think about this: if drafting didn't exist (imagine no air resistance), wouldn't bike races just be an individual time trial? And if that were the case, what would be the interest of categories (other than handing out more awards)? Cycling categories facilitate group tactics (groups of cyclists with similar abilities, so tactics become critical) and also make racing safer (similar skills and speeds). Neither of these are as important in triathlon.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Sucks you didn't get any recognition Thomas. They should have explained the ramifications of you racing ahead of time (if they had thought about them). At least you would have been able to make a clean decision whether to race or not.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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deh20 wrote:
Is anyone arguing that Ken Glah (now 51?) shouldn't be allowed to compete in 50-54 because he was once a pro? [That dude rocks....29 consecutive Kona finishes???]

I think the complaint is that he holds a current pro license, where a number have pros sat out a few years before they raced AG. I think a 3 or 4 year exodus would be more than sufficient to erase the argument. Ken is awesome!
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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So, if you go pro you must take a 3-4 year sabbatical from the sport before you can compete again? That sounds fair. What if someone is fast enough to go pro, acquires all the necessary credentials, but chooses to not accept his pro card. Must that person also not race against age groupers because he similarly is just too fast?

The whole pro vs non-pro distinction is stupid. If someone beats you, they beat you. Who cares about some arbitrary classification.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Blakebecker] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for sharing.

I tend to agree with just about everything you said. The only point where we really differ, and it's probably the result of the perspective we each have, given where we "reside" in the triathlon ranks, is that I really don't have a problem with TG, you, or anyone who can mop up the AGers racing on a day like yesterday, except that should you decide to race, you should be held to the same entry requirements that we are, so that everyone enters the starting gate on the same footing with regards to expectations, so to speak.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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motoguy128 wrote:
Maybe a simpler way to put it. Without a purse, pros effectively become amateurs for that event. However because of their pro status, they are still ineligible for age group awards and WC qualifying slots.

However, it seems like they should be required to follow that same registration requirements and limitations. I'm curious is a foundation slot was used or a pro slot was used.

IM has really created an ugly situation with having non-pro races. I'm OK with tiered points and purses, but having an event that large and collecting $2MM+ in entry fees, seems to me like you ought to still have an elite field.

Maybe USAT needs to come up with a new rule. USAT sanctioned events with lets say 1500+ entrants must have a elite wave and a purse =< $5000.


I think put more simply, & to Thomas's point (& other pros that have been discussing this), if WTC doesn't want Pro's in races that don't have pro fields, then don't let them register. Furthermore, if you are going to let them register, acknowledge their accomplishment rather than act like a 5 yo & ignore that they even raced.

I personally think they don't want pros in races that don't have pro fields but are happy to take anyone's money.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [dado0583] [ In reply to ]
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dado0583 wrote:
Sucks you didn't get any recognition Thomas. They should have explained the ramifications of you racing ahead of time (if they had thought about them). At least you would have been able to make a clean decision whether to race or not.

I raced (started but pulled out of) IM Boulder (my hometown race) last month. I signed up when I was an amateur, then got a pro card in May and wanted to "participate." The whole process was odd and I felt awkward. WTC allowed me to do the race but for no prize or award. They NEVER said that I wouldn't be counted in the final results. I was fine with that, but didn't feel like I should finish the race because I was going to get some crap for doing so.

I think that WTC just needs to say no pro athletes allowed if they have paid for the Ironman Pro Membership. If you have a Pro Membership with WTC, you can not race an "age group only" race.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [colinlaughery] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough. It seems like IM Boulder did it right. They let you race but not for award or prize. Which you understood.

Seems reasonable. Of course if you are a pro then you would not get an award for age group. It is understood when you turn pro correct?
I guess the only reason a pro would enter an age group only race would be for own internal gratification, or an expensive, supported training day, to have other people suffering along with you, or as in Thomas's case because it was his home town race.
Last edited by: Pat0: Sep 14, 15 11:16
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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Professional athletes may compete in events that are not identified as IRONMAN or IRONMAN 70.3 Professional Qualification and validation events. The policy and procedure is as follows:
1. Entry will be through the general entry process at the current entry price.
2. There is no official Pro/ Elite Division/Wave however, pro athletes must declare their professional status during the registration process.
3. Pro/ elite athletes will race with their respective age-group wave, or in the case of a rolling start, will stage themselves accordingly.
4. Athletes will be competing according to the age-group Rules of the event.
5. Pros are NOT eligible for Age Group awards or qualifying slots and are not included in age group results.
6. If overall awards are presented, they are eligible for these awards.


Here are the rules. It does say that pro athletes need to enter like anyone else.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [colinlaughery] [ In reply to ]
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Class. That what should have happened here. You made the right choice....respect!


colinlaughery wrote:
I raced (started but pulled out of) IM Boulder (my hometown race) last month. I signed up when I was an amateur, then got a pro card in May and wanted to "participate." The whole process was odd and I felt awkward. WTC allowed me to do the race but for no prize or award. They NEVER said that I wouldn't be counted in the final results. I was fine with that, but didn't feel like I should finish the race because I was going to get some crap for doing so.

I think that WTC just needs to say no pro athletes allowed if they have paid for the Ironman Pro Membership. If you have a Pro Membership with WTC, you can not race an "age group only" race.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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The real story here is about Rudy not getting the recognition he should have got, Whether he WAS a pro or not is irrelevant. He was an amatuer on race day.

As an AG who had the dream of winning IMWI overall, I was disappointed in the decision to have TG, both on his end and IRONMANs decision
Whether a sponsor paid for it or not, would they let an AG do that?

Winning an IRONMAN event is about seeing your name on a website or getting the chance shoot the shit in an interview after the race. Winning a IMWI is about all the energy and support you get from the crowds and other ahletes all day long. It's about putting in the time and energy for thebl last 12 months and thinking about that finish line each day. Who cares if you didn't get your 15 secs of fame. The day was about the amatuer races and should have been about Rudy. Edward had an amazing day as well, nothing against him. Rudy was the best on the day. He's gonna go places in the long distance racing scene.

I didn't have a good day out there. Yea I wanted to win so badly but it didn't happen. I was in 3rd (well 2nd) until mile 14 before the wheels fell off. I was honored to be up there with the leaders and was absolutely humbled by the crowd and Mike Reiley at the finish line.

For every 100 good people out there, there's always 1 asshole. Yesterday it was "capain america'. I take no shame in how my day ended but it's sad how others can try to tear you down while sitting on the sidelines. Thank you for the motivation.

Congrats to TG for a great training day, Rudy for the Win and the rest of all the AG on a great day in a great city. Wish things ended differently but I'll learn and come back stronger.

Dissappointment is finite. Hope is infinite.

Sorry for the typos - big thumbs

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [erengel23] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, talk about big fish in a little pond syndrome. Looking to "win" a race where the fast people are excluded. What kind of satisfaction is that? Whatever you do don't ever move to Boulder or San Diego. There are a lot of those fast people there who will beat you at little local rinky-dink events.

Pros have two legs, two arms, and two lungs just like you. Their pro status doesn't give them some advantage over you. If you can't beat them, you don't win. And winning where they are excluded is pretty hollow winning.

I was a big fish runner in a little pond in div 3 college. Then Henry Rono's kid appeared from Africa at a neighboring school. It was so unfair. I wasn't the biggest fish anymore. Our division was a little pond. Fast people shouldn't have been allowed.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Pat0] [ In reply to ]
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Pat0 wrote:
On the other hand the pros also have a lot more time to train as this is their full time job (for most).

But certainly not an "unfair" advantage. We all make our choices and line up our priorities which hopefully are fulfilling to us or at least we can live with them.

i think you would be surprised how FEW pros survive solely from prize winnings. i would suggest that MOST are with a full-time job.

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [snackchair] [ In reply to ]
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And many age groupers are basically pros - train full time and work on the side.

This.

Is this fair? Is it any more fair than TG winning an "AG" race? I think there should be Kona slots for those with real jobs. Maybe slots for those that work 20 hours, then 40, then 60? Is that fair?

I think the solution for those that didn't win yesterday that thought they could is simple. You must go faster. I'm sure that sounds like a dick statement and it's not intended as such, but racing is racing. There's always someone faster. I hope I'm healthy enough and lucky enough to mix it up with the big boys down there next year.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Pat0] [ In reply to ]
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Pat0 wrote:
On the other hand the pros also have a lot more time to train as this is their full time job (for most).

False.

And even if they did, arguing that pros have an unfair advantage due to training time makes no more sense than divvying up age group kona slots based on how much time a person has to train, how much they work, how many kids they have, their access to expensive equipment and resources, etc.

The more categories/distinctions/groupings we create the more it demeans and belittles the sport.

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:


Quote:
And many age groupers are basically pros - train full time and work on the side.

This.

Is this fair? Is it any more fair than TG winning an "AG" race? I think there should be Kona slots for those with real jobs. Maybe slots for those that work 20 hours, then 40, then 60? Is that fair?


By getting a pro card, Thomas chose to take himself out of the amateur ranks to compete as a pro so I don't think it's fair for him to drop down a category just to win an amateur race. It has nothing to do with training time.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas, we internally had discussed this very topic a few months ago to make it a story. And it looks like we have more reason to do it now.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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I've only been in this sport a few years and am really only obsessed with how I can get better and don't have a full grasp of all the politics involved here but if I boil this all down it sounds like a guy that is a professional athlete by the standards established within the sport used his status and clout as a pro to enter and win what is an amateur event and is upset or at least confused when he isn't technically the winner. I guess I'm confused as to why this is even a controversy.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
Thomas, we internally had discussed this very topic a few months ago to make it a story. And it looks like we have more reason to do it now.


Yes it certainly is a topic that needs more discussion in the future. It was a busy day and I hope to respond to more of the thread tomorrow, but I haven't had time to do so today. I did talk about some of the issues surrounding the confusion and ways to improve this process on an interview I did today that has been released.


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Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: Sep 14, 15 20:27
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Congrats on your race - all the chatter about what its like to be a pro vs amateur are interesting, and WTC will likely find a way to try to have it both ways where they sell out races without offering prize money, but I hope they are not successful at that and that every big IM race will have lots of pros duking it out for money and racing fast.

Again - great win out there. Wisconsin is a tough course.

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
What if Venus Williams, Jordan Speith or another pro athlete decided to go back to their college and play a match? Fair? They would NEVER devalue their brand which they work so hard to build.


As an example, NBA players play in summer leagues or in pickup games back at their colleges all the time...
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [tri4balance] [ In reply to ]
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tri4balance wrote:
Congrats on your race - all the chatter about what its like to be a pro vs amateur are interesting, and WTC will likely find a way to try to have it both ways where they sell out races without offering prize money, but I hope they are not successful at that and that every big IM race will have lots of pros duking it out for money and racing fast.

Not me. Adds nothing to my race and if anything is just a big distraction. Just make every IM a race, plain and simple. Whoever is fastest is the winner. If they want to have a prize purse, amateurs should be eligible. Forget the whole amateur-pro distinction. Just have an elite wave where anybody who wants to race for prize money can do so. But as others have said many times before, not sure what is in it for IM to have a prize purse (or pros) at all.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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Scott,

This is for you but is also for everybody else who asked. For those that are unaware there are many different avenues of registration, there is general registration, their is foundation slots, there are also sponsors slots. I am not going to get into the whole talk track as it clear based on here that a lot of that has been kept private for a reason and I don't want to risk getting my handed slapped unnecessary - as a pro I have previously received a written warning letter for conduct.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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deh20 wrote:
Hmmm.....Thomas, your results are up, but you're missing some run splits. Are you sure you didn't "lose" your chip for a while?

I am assuming that comment is in pink? If having a lead biker for the whole marathon is not enough, I am sure I could produce my gps file. Just have to find my watch buried in all my stuff here.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thom Thumb, think u are a good guy but I think a lot of this is bs. You posted on IG, FB, or Twitter last year that you knew IMWI would be the last year for the pros. Granted and I'll give you credit you have legit reasons for wanting to sign up and race. But bottom line, you are a pro and u wanted to do this race bc u wanted a legit win and knew you could do it and wanted some sort of validation for it. So you live in Madison now year round? Prob not. I'm sure u still go to Tucson in winter. Your parents never seeing a race? I'll let it slide even though u have capitol view and other road races in one of the best areas to run in the country. Would def like to get the opinions of the Herings and Eicher and I'll let it go at that. DM me if you want to hang out in Chitown with all the USA boys on Sat night. We'll get a bottle for victory ....
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [BigNes88] [ In reply to ]
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BigNes88 wrote:
Thom Thumb, think u are a good guy but I think a lot of this is bs. You posted on IG, FB, or Twitter last year that you knew IMWI would be the last year for the pros. Granted and I'll give you credit you have legit reasons for wanting to sign up and race. But bottom line, you are a pro and u wanted to do this race bc u wanted a legit win and knew you could do it and wanted some sort of validation for it. So you live in Madison now year round? Prob not. I'm sure u still go to Tucson in winter. Your parents never seeing a race? I'll let it slide even though u have capitol view and other road races in one of the best areas to run in the country. Would def like to get the opinions of the Herings and Eicher and I'll let it go at that. DM me if you want to hang out in Chitown with all the USA boys on Sat night. We'll get a bottle for victory ....

its not a race anymore if fast people would not be allowed to enter
end of story really.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [tri4balance] [ In reply to ]
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I much prefer races with pros. inspiring to see what they can accomplish. I hope WTC reverses its decision here and brings the pro purse back for more races. Never understood that decision in the first place.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
deh20 wrote:
Hmmm.....Thomas, your results are up, but you're missing some run splits. Are you sure you didn't "lose" your chip for a while?


I am assuming that comment is in pink? If having a lead biker for the whole marathon is not enough, I am sure I could produce my gps file. Just have to find my watch buried in all my stuff here.


Ofcourse that should be in pink. Couldn't resist a little Julie Miller reference when I saw one of the timing mats was apparently bad. Great race, and especially fantastic bike. I can't imagine 4:43 on that course.

For the record: I think anyone should be able to race anytime regardless of pro vs. amateur.

The only issue that I have is access to a sold out race. I appreciate that you can't comment, and it's not directed at you, but the "system".

Its personally frustrating for me because during several seasons (this year being one), I've found myself injured and unable to race the Ironman that I signed up for a year in advance, but in great condition 2 months later with no way into a sold out event. (This year, I'm screwed for Tahoe after taking the last 2 weeks off running for ITB, but would love to take a run at IMAZ.) I'm all for racing (and losing to) whoever shows up, but they should have to manage the same risks, logistical challenges, etc. that I do.
Last edited by: deh20: Sep 15, 15 4:49
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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cmscat50 wrote:
Quote:

And many age groupers are basically pros - train full time and work on the side.


This.

Is this fair? Is it any more fair than TG winning an "AG" race? I think there should be Kona slots for those with real jobs. Maybe slots for those that work 20 hours, then 40, then 60? Is that fair?

I think the solution for those that didn't win yesterday that thought they could is simple. You must go faster. I'm sure that sounds like a dick statement and it's not intended as such, but racing is racing. There's always someone faster. I hope I'm healthy enough and lucky enough to mix it up with the big boys down there next year.

Easier solution to all of it. Without a Open Elite (purse <$5k) or a Closed Pro Elite Wave (Purse >$5k) for a race with more than 1000 participants, you simply don't recognize a overall winner. Or more accurately, without a mass start, how can you fairly award an overall win. Hard enough on rolling starts and multi-wave starts with an AG to have a fair AG race.

They don't usually recognize overall amateur winners in 70.3 races without pro fields. So why the big deal for IM.

I was branded an complete asshole when I brought up the same point at IM Maryland last year.


I think we all have our own hurdles in life. No need to make special recognition of those that sacrifice more or less. We all have choices to make. Honestly, even person that trains more than 10-12 hours a week and has a family is being somewhat irresponsible and has selfish priorities. It's just a fact. I'm guilty myself. Some might argue your setting a good example for a healthy lifestyle and chasing you goals. But OTOH, your spending less quality time with your family. Less is less, just as training more is more. Years from now I'll be proud of my accomplishments but I'll also have some regrets for being a bit absent for almost 2 years to train more. Then I took on a little coaching on the side too.

I'd say most amateurs put in a lot more hours training, working and family time than pros. They mainly sacrifice sleep and general downtime and aren't spending as much time stretching, core work, gym time, massages, chiro visits, etc. But there's a price to pay on all sides as I've said. Pros usually have to scrape out a meager living.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Its WTC responsibility to clearly outline its policies BEFORE this shit happens...and set up processes to make it happen that way (registration)....

Personally, I also think pro/non pro distinctions are dumb....offer prize money or don't offer it.....fastest guy/women wins.....done

This is WTC responsibility to run their events with clear rules and they blew it....and then, as some one stated, they acted like 5 year olds....(no surprise there...)
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
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ironmayb wrote:
a) there are Ager's who now sign up for AG only events, like this, Louisville etc. with the expectation they will be competing against only other Ager's and therefore have the opportunity to "break the tape". They train for months with this expectation.

I will say more importantly I don't think IM should have let you in in the first place. If they designate this an AG race it should be just that.

Ironman did make a mistake taking Thomas's money, but I loved racing IM Muskoka without any pros. Had there been two pros on the course ahead of me I would have missed out on quite a bit of the AG only experience, that I really enjoyed. I visualized taking first place in an Ironman (unsuccessfully) for quite sometime prior to the race and it was part of the draw to me.

Ken


"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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Not directly responding to you but I like the way you put it with no "overall" winner like in 70.3s. But my real question is why do so many people care? Thomas raced a race that had no pro purse and he did it within the rules. I have raced many a Oly race with no prize purse but plenty of pros since it was a race close to them. So why all the outrage when it's an IM? Whoever posted earlier about how they were going for the overall win wasn't happy because a pro won it I say get a bit faster. Those of you, us, that aspire to win overall races can cherry pick a race to win and even though I have had some good results and won a race overall I still don't toe the line expecting to win. And if I get beat by a pro, former pro, age group pro, or age grouper it doesn't matter to me. It means I was not the best on the day. It seems as if we, as triathletes, are a very entitled bunch that think things should be given to them. Again, this post is to no one specific just been thinking about that result and I listened to his TRS radio interview this morning.

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Scott,

This is for you but is also for everybody else who asked. For those that are unaware there are many different avenues of registration, there is general registration, their is foundation slots, there are also sponsors slots. I am not going to get into the whole talk track as it clear based on here that a lot of that has been kept private for a reason and I don't want to risk getting my handed slapped unnecessary - as a pro I have previously received a written warning letter for conduct.

Reading the thread through I think I know what "happened." One or Two people who have some influence made the decision to remove you from the race results. They did so without consulting the rules and as it turns out they violated them. You should sue WTC. I am serious. You sustained an economic loss by not being declared the winner. The fact that you were declared the winner later is irrelevant, the opportunity for you to capitalize on your win was severely diminished the moment a few irresponsible people didn't pull the banner out for you. These irresponsible people were motivated by money. WTC wants to control every dollar that is generated by the race. Including your likeness. I bet it won't take much detective work to find that your changing of tops caused quite a flutter of text messages and emails from people who think that they, not you, should profit off your likeness.

I suppose a discussion on pros in age group fields is worth having, but a discussion on the rules as they are currently written is pointless. The rules are very clear: You were the overall winner and had every right to be there and race.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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You got a comped entry from a race sponsor. In what race do they ever allow ANY person to sign up 2 days before the race? Your actions were bush league and this forum post confirms that. if you want to carry a pro/elite card, act like one both on and off the course.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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deh20 wrote:
I don't understand why some people (not many, but some) believe pros should only race other pros in pro races. In this sport, pros do not have access to anything (equipment, training, nutrition, coaching, etc.) that age groupers do not. In fact, there are many age groupers with tri budgets that exceed most of the pros' budgets. So, they don't really come to the race with any unfair advantage (unless you count genetics....but where do you draw the line there?) If it bruises egos that a 38 year pro wins 35-39, get over it. He was the fastest 35-39 year old.

Nobody makes a pro become a pro. If they want to stay amateur and beat the crap out of fellow AGers then I have no problem with it. Once you go pro, stay there until you give up the pro card. Also, I don't believe that there would be that many "out of the money" pros who would dominate the AG ranks once they had all the responsibilities of full time employment, less recovery and career building. They might, but I don't think it would be the cake walk that is being described.

Ken


"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]
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redtdi wrote:
ironmayb wrote:

a) there are Ager's who now sign up for AG only events, like this, Louisville etc. with the expectation they will be competing against only other Ager's and therefore have the opportunity to "break the tape". They train for months with this expectation.

I will say more importantly I don't think IM should have let you in in the first place. If they designate this an AG race it should be just that.


Ironman did make a mistake taking Thomas's money, but I loved racing IM Muskoka without any pros. Had there been two pros on the course ahead of me I would have missed out on quite a bit of the AG only experience, that I really enjoyed. I visualized taking first place in an Ironman (unsuccessfully) for quite sometime prior to the race and it was part of the draw to me.

Ken
And that is a great dream/goal. But is that at the exclusion of any pro who might want to race? Should they not be able to so agers can realize their dream? Wouldn't it mean more if you beat all-comers?
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [solitude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
solitude wrote:
tri4balance wrote:
Congrats on your race - all the chatter about what its like to be a pro vs amateur are interesting, and WTC will likely find a way to try to have it both ways where they sell out races without offering prize money, but I hope they are not successful at that and that every big IM race will have lots of pros duking it out for money and racing fast.


Not me. Adds nothing to my race and if anything is just a big distraction. Just make every IM a race, plain and simple. Whoever is fastest is the winner. If they want to have a prize purse, amateurs should be eligible. Forget the whole amateur-pro distinction. Just have an elite wave where anybody who wants to race for prize money can do so. But as others have said many times before, not sure what is in it for IM to have a prize purse (or pros) at all.

^ This!! Thomas was the fastest on the day. He was the overall winner...case closed. What is the BFD? Some age groupers act as if having a "pro card" imbues the holder with some magical powers that makes it unfair for them to compete against mere age group mortals. Got news for you folks...when you get into your 50s you will find a sizable number who are able to retire early and basically train and recover like a pro. Some may have won the lottery, built and sold a successful business, went from a successful high pressure job to a part-time physical trainer, or had no kids and retired early, etc., etc. I'm in my late 50s and still working fulltime but I know of at least a half-dozen folks in this category...and most are KQ'rs. Life is not fair so just accept that now.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Pat0] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Pat0 wrote:
And that is a great dream/goal. But is that at the exclusion of any pro who might want to race? Should they not be able to so agers can realize their dream? Wouldn't it mean more if you beat all-comers?

I very (very) generally assume that when racing other AGers that I have similar access to time, money and other resources to make it a fair race. If pros show up then I assume that they have access to more time than I do, which when recovery and training are the critical elements of getting better make for a less even playing field. If I were beaten by someone going 8:59 at Muskoka who was in AG35-39 I would have had no problem with it at all, if that person had never had a pro card or had given it up. I would have been pissed if they had an active pro card and were just out for a training day.

Of course the above are sweeping generalizations, and just one guys opinion.


"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Blakebecker] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Blake,
Give your boy some credit! He did a race that he was allowed to do. He did not bend rules or have any evil motives going into this event. I talked to him the Friday before the race. From the short convo, he told me a few things: that it was going to be great to wake up in his own bed and race around his town. Secondly, he told me that he just got out of the water and had a great swim with a good pal. 2 things that have come to mind since the convo: 1- Why would anyone do an IM off the couch. 2- you are the great pal who he swam with the day before. Give your boy a bit of love back!!!!


As far as I can see, this whole ordeal is stupid. They let the man race....giving him a number and a chip. In 2015, he gets a called as the winner. For 2016, change the rules where pros can't race. Simple!

PT

ps When Lance, Levi and Co. raced Gila back in 2010, they were not separated out in the the results, as they technically should not have been race a non-world tour race; and I am glad they kept them in the race.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I guess that "deserving" AG'er should have raced faster. Thomas won. Now I do agree that Rudy got screwed in this situation. I wasn't aware that Rudy was an AG'er now as I raced against him a couple of times last year in pro fields so I just assumed he was still a pro.

I am 100% on TG's side. Pro's have had over 50% of their prize money races taken away in N. America and everyone still expects us to just race "pro only" races. I'm not traveling to Cali, Florida, Texas, Europe, etc. throughout the year to hopefully have the race of MY life and squeak into a $500 or $750 paycheck for finishing 10th. So we're just supposed to stop racing all together, or only race 2-3 times a year?

Are you also saying that Matt Stonie and Joey Chestnut should only be able to eat Nathan's hot dogs on the 4th of July?

@tonywhitetri
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [jjdaniels71] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If you have been around the sport for a long time and are a good ambassador the triathlon world is pretty
small. It is easy to get last minute entries into a race, and I have been comped entries many times.
For a race director by bringing in athletes it helps to improve competition, it can show others that it
is a fast course, and can also be about getting the race more exposure.

Even if there is no prize purse offered I would still want to see pros racing as the winner is a good benchmark
to compare myself to. I would welcome anyone who wants to show up to a race, even if it is a world champ
at a local olympic distance. Right now at IM distance we don't truly have races due to wave starts, as it is
hard to know how one compares to the competition until the end of the day. Go back to a mass start and
let the best individuals have their glory.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ggeiger wrote:
Blakebecker wrote:
Base Nutrition paid for his entry.

+++

As the longest standing hometown Pro in Madison, WI I choose not to race because:

#1 - Ironman races are too hard on my body to just go out and do one.

#2 - It felt like I would be stealing the AG thunder. OF COURSE the Pro's are going to beat the Age Grouper's in an Ironman. Duh!


TG raced because he wanted to win. He did. Is it the same? Of course not.

I disagree with the decision to race and believe those reading this are likely split 50/50 on whether it was a good decision to do so. However, it is too bad he wasn't allowed to celebrate what he technically should have been allowed to do according to the rules and on paper.

Rudy was screwed the most in this case though. He was a legit age grouper. It was over-looked because when he registered last year, he actually held a Pro license. This year he did not have one and has raced AG all year. He was the top amateur at Boulder 70.3. He got zero publicity or recognition for his accomplishment yesterday.

+++

My personal opinion is that an AG race should NOT allow Pro's to participate at all. Thus the name "Age Group race."



BINGO! ^^

DOUBLE BINGO! ^^
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [paulthomas] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
PT, this is stupid and actually a bit comical.

I don't know if anyone could have registered for the race on Friday evening, BUT I give Thomas credit for having his best race to date on that course. So that is great. I definitely believe he should have been given the banner, recognition, all the things that go with being first across the line. Those are the rules and that's what should have been awarded to him.

Perhaps Mike Reilly was having a hard time on the day, he fell off his tower and was unconscious for 3minutes. Apparently he is fine now.

Professional Triathlete
Owner of Blake Becker Multisport Coaching LLC / Team BBMC
blakebeck@gmail.com
http://www.teambbmc.com
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Twhite_4] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Twhite_4 wrote:
I guess that "deserving" AG'er should have raced faster. Thomas won. Now I do agree that Rudy got screwed in this situation. I wasn't aware that Rudy was an AG'er now as I raced against him a couple of times last year in pro fields so I just assumed he was still a pro.

I am 100% on TG's side. Pro's have had over 50% of their prize money races taken away in N. America and everyone still expects us to just race "pro only" races. I'm not traveling to Cali, Florida, Texas, Europe, etc. throughout the year to hopefully have the race of MY life and squeak into a $500 or $750 paycheck for finishing 10th. So we're just supposed to stop racing all together, or only race 2-3 times a year?

Are you also saying that Matt Stonie and Joey Chestnut should only be able to eat Nathan's hot dogs on the 4th of July?

The intent of my post was simply to raise Thomas' awareness of the other side of his argument. I posted shortly after returning to my hotel. I only heard about this after I had completed the race. The report I got came with some negative connotation toward Thomas and was made by some people who weren't racing Sunday but when they do they are at the pointy end of the field.

I logged onto ST half expecting to find a grumble thread about the whole situation (ie. why were pros racing). Instead I find TG's thread........ I found it a little tone deaf to the whole day and to some of the feelings about his choosing to race and thought I would try to point that out.

Let me say again, I think this is mostly an issue for WTC. But I don't know what was said between them and TG as part of this signing up process.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
redtdi wrote:
I very (very) generally assume that when racing other AGers that I have similar access to time, money and other resources to make it a fair race. If pros show up then I assume that they have access to more time than I do, which when recovery and training are the critical elements of getting better make for a less even playing field.

So basically you want a handicap for how much time people have to train? Many pros work full time and train on the side, just as many ager's train full time and work on the side.

Should we also create a handicap for how much money you have? If you can afford a P5 and zipps, you need to race in a different category than a guy racing a road bike with clip ons?

How about a handicap for height, or weight, or talent, or maybe experience? If you swam or ran in high school or college, you need to race in different category than folks who started endurance sports later in life, because you had access to coaches, resources, etc?

Creating stupid sub categories belittles the sport. First one across the finish line wins the race. It's that simple.

___________________
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [snackchair] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Very simple. If you want to race AG, don't take a pro card or let it expire. After that do what you want. I'm not sure why TG is getting a pass for wanting to be the champion of a race where no pro competition showed up. Seems he's just as vain as AGers who didn't want him there.

Ken


"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Incredibly bad assumption. Read my post #124 directly above yours.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
redtdi wrote:
Very simple. If you want to race AG, don't take a pro card or let it expire. After that do what you want. I'm not sure why TG is getting a pass for wanting to be the champion of a race where no pro competition showed up. Seems he's just as vain as AGers who didn't want him there.

Ken

What is your definition of pro competition? Those that are actively holding a USAT elite license? What about Rudy, just because he let his card expire doesn't mean he has let his talent and work ethic expire, he was a pro last year from my understanding. What about the AG'ers that raced that have qualified for their elite license but declined it? Are they not pro competition because of their choice to take a card or not?

Maybe triathlon or USAT should just drop the elite license and let the fastest times themselves sort out who is who.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
redtdi wrote:
Pat0 wrote:


I very (very) generally assume that when racing other AGers that I have similar access to time, money and other resources to make it a fair race. .

That's pretty funny. I suppose it averages out somewhat. But of the top finishers in Kona, you'll find many are almost "professional amateurs" that train 25-30 hours per week, still sleep 7+ hours every night. They have some sponsorship and often have the best equipment.

I personally have a twisted sense of pride lining up with a scratched up 8 year old aero helmet, 5 year old, non integrated 2nd tier aero bike, older zip 404 up front, and I don't even own a disc.

So how would you rate the top amateur finisher at Kona showing up to every long course race you enter that year, in your age group. He's finished "in the money" in a 70.3 several times. Could easily be racing pro. Did he somehow "steal" a win from me? No way. I love it! I get to race one of the best in the world. I embrace the opportunity. He's going to blow my doors off in the run, but I don;t care. I'll race my heart out and enjoy every minute of good competition.

I race all comers. If they show up and beat me, good for them. They are the better athlete. I race whoever I can race. I don't look for a weaker field just to pad my ego. I grade my performances on a curve in any race. Meaning I'm really racing myself, and judging my performance based on the best effort I know I'm capable of given any limitation (rest, training load, conditions, etc.).

Honestly, I'm sometimes a little disappointed to find myself out front, but having only an "average" day. Its' when you put in your best race you know you had in you, and still got beat, now that's a great day. I love to see how many card carrying pros I can beat at any race, especially the bike. Without a pro field at a major race, my performance almost seems a little hollow. Nothing to compare it against.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [bcagle25] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hopefully IM will straighten out their policies so that everything becomes clear. I'm in favour of not having "current" pros start. Rudy would have been very welcome by me.


"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I agree with the vanity statement, but this is a problem that WTC, the triathlon media (including this site), and sponsors have created.

If the people with the fastest times in the JV ironman parades without pro fields weren't being called ironman 'winners' and 'champs' it would be a different story. But the fact that the triathlon media and ironman calls them ironman champs necessitates that anyone should be able to show up and race for that title - as is the case with a local race that has no prize money.

If we prohibit pros from racing, we'll simply see less fast athletes taking their pro cards so they can 'win' an ironman (and accumulate the accolades, media attention, and sponsorship money and products associated with that victory). With kona and 70.3 qualification being virtually impossible at the pro level and considerably easier at the age group level, and prize money races dying out, there's already little incentive for athletes to take their pro card unless they're at the very, very top of the sport.

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Supersquid wrote:
Quote:




Quote:
And many age groupers are basically pros - train full time and work on the side.

This.

Is this fair? Is it any more fair than TG winning an "AG" race? I think there should be Kona slots for those with real jobs. Maybe slots for those that work 20 hours, then 40, then 60? Is that fair?



By getting a pro card, Thomas chose to take himself out of the amateur ranks to compete as a pro so I don't think it's fair for him to drop down a category just to win an amateur race. It has nothing to do with training time.

There is no such thing as amateur race, the only time I am aware that it becomes an issue is when there is a pro who doesn't do the pro race and competes as amateur. This was not a pro race. Just for the record, you are aware that Pros do no pro-races all the time don't you? I do a handful a year every year. Nobody ever seems to complain when I show up at those.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [BigNes88] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
For the record, my list of reasons goes on and on and I have more than just written. BTW, I ran 18 miles on Monday. People doing an Ironman don't run 18 miles on the Monday before. I starting thinking about racing on Thursday. And yes, I head back to Tucson soon. I don't think anyone really understands how much work is involved in moving all stuff back and forth, finding and apartment, setting everything up, the actual travel time etc. It is nice to get in a race before I go thru all that. This year I didn't have a chance with DNFing at IMMT.

And I said my parents have never seen me win a race. Chances are the closer the race the less seriously I am taking it. Often times when I show up at a local race I have a massive amount of fatigue already built up and I rarely if ever put in any sort of "race effort". But frankly I also tell my parents specifically not to come because it isn't worth the travel. There is no travel required in them for this. I have never done a triathlon in Madison outside of Ironman Wisconsin. This is my home race. If Capital View showed some interested in having me race I would have maybe come out, but in past years they never have.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [jjdaniels71] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jjdaniels71 wrote:
You got a comped entry from a race sponsor. In what race do they ever allow ANY person to sign up 2 days before the race? Your actions were bush league and this forum post confirms that. if you want to carry a pro/elite card, act like one both on and off the course.

Thank you for your thoughts. For the record they allow many people, even amateurs to sign up 2 days before the race. Please don't make me out to be unique because that is not correct and it seems that you might just be unaware of the inner workings of the organization. I went thru all the proper channels before hand, and it is NOT a comped entry. A comped entry implies the race is providing a free entry - this was not the case. I had to give up something to get something, it wasn't free for me.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
redtdi wrote:
Hopefully IM will straighten out their policies so that everything becomes clear. I'm in favour of not having "current" pros start. Rudy would have been very welcome by me.

Honest question. When Challenge cancelled a bunch of races - for instance Challenge Atlantic City, they still invited pros to come compete anyway. I realize that most pros are not going to put in a lot of travel to go race, but almost every pro I know races some local triathlon to them. Do you have the same view for those pros doing those local races? If not why the differing view here.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
redtdi wrote:
Very simple. If you want to race AG, don't take a pro card or let it expire. After that do what you want. I'm not sure why TG is getting a pass for wanting to be the champion of a race where no pro competition showed up. Seems he's just as vain as AGers who didn't want him there.

Ken

Ken, I can assure you that I didn't even know if I could finish this race. I went from 32 mins, to 45, to 54, to 90, to 150 to maybe my knee is going to hold up for the entire race. As I explained in my initial email to Heather requesting why I was entering, it gave me a chance to do a race situation and see how the knee was progressing. It does me know good to go spend $2,000 to travel to an IM to DNF again. Worse, I know that people always having differing views, however if I would have swam, bike, and ran 13.1 miles and then dropped out. I would be attacked for "not finishing, for DNFing when I was perfectly capable to finish". Sometimes you can't win.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Blakebecker] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Blakebecker wrote:
PT, this is stupid and actually a bit comical.

I don't know if anyone could have registered for the race on Friday evening, BUT I give Thomas credit for having his best race to date on that course. So that is great. I definitely believe he should have been given the banner, recognition, all the things that go with being first across the line. Those are the rules and that's what should have been awarded to him.

Perhaps Mike Reilly was having a hard time on the day, he fell off his tower and was unconscious for 3minutes. Apparently he is fine now.

MIke Reilly fell off his tower and was unconscious. Where and when did this happen?


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
redtdi wrote:
Very simple. If you want to race AG, don't take a pro card or let it expire. After that do what you want. I'm not sure why TG is getting a pass for wanting to be the champion of a race where no pro competition showed up. Seems he's just as vain as AGers who didn't want him there.

Ken

Ken, I can assure you that I didn't even know if I could finish this race. I went from 32 mins, to 45, to 54, to 90, to 150 to maybe my knee is going to hold up for the entire race. As I explained in my initial email to Heather requesting why I was entering, it gave me a chance to do a race situation and see how the knee was progressing. It does me know good to go spend $2,000 to travel to an IM to DNF again. Worse, I know that people always having differing views, however if I would have swam, bike, and ran 13.1 miles and then dropped out. I would be attacked for "not finishing, for DNFing when I was perfectly capable to finish". Sometimes you can't win.

Pro Colin Laughery raced IM Boulder and dropped out before the end and didn't receive any ill will. Few people even knew he was racing and those that did applauded him for not poaching a win. So, there's that precedent.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
redtdi wrote:
Very simple. If you want to race AG, don't take a pro card or let it expire. After that do what you want. I'm not sure why TG is getting a pass for wanting to be the champion of a race where no pro competition showed up. Seems he's just as vain as AGers who didn't want him there.

Ken

But he didn't race Age Group. He raced overall. No Age Group races were affected. If you want to make an argument that a current Pro should not be allowed in a non-Pro race then take that up with WTC to change the rule. From what I have read it clearly states TG was fine to race for the overall title but will not be included in the Age Group standings.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Before your finish...heard about it second hand from two people.

Professional Triathlete
Owner of Blake Becker Multisport Coaching LLC / Team BBMC
blakebeck@gmail.com
http://www.teambbmc.com
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The real questions.

Wisconsin State Journal said you are taking a break from triathlon- True or False?

Next year when this is a Women's Pro race, will you be competing?

You are leaving for Tucson? I thought you are staying here until Silverman and AZ?

Did you buy lottery tickets on Friday evening after seeing 777 on our swim?

+++

Let's just lighten up a little and move on.

WTC needs to clear up their language. They stated it's on Age Group Only race on their coverage page, yet they still allow active Pro's to compete, but don't acknowledge them on the day, but decide to the next day. All I can say is that we should expect that the rules will change and be clear next year!

Professional Triathlete
Owner of Blake Becker Multisport Coaching LLC / Team BBMC
blakebeck@gmail.com
http://www.teambbmc.com
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
To claim he would have won is a bit much. He came off the bike in second and he would have had to run with Clay Emge (also former pro last year) The sad part about this whole thing is that even gives precedent to Rudy's story here. WTC can figure it out in Boulder for Clay (former pro) but couldn't figure it out for Rudy.

TRS racing gave Thomas a forum to speak. Whether you like Thomas or not he is bringing up points that need to be addressed by the WTC. End of story.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Blakebecker] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Blakebecker wrote:
The real questions.

Wisconsin State Journal said you are taking a break from triathlon- True or False?

Next year when this is a Women's Pro race, will you be competing?

You are leaving for Tucson? I thought you are staying here until Silverman and AZ?

Did you buy lottery tickets on Friday evening after seeing 777 on our swim?

+++

Let's just lighten up a little and move on.

WTC needs to clear up their language. They stated it's on Age Group Only race on their coverage page, yet they still allow active Pro's to compete, but don't acknowledge them on the day, but decide to the next day. All I can say is that we should expect that the rules will change and be clear next year!


When they say "Age Group Only" race they mean it doesn't have a prize purse. It is poor wording at best. Regardless,

No lotto tickets. In the moment when the journal asked that it was kind of a punch to the gut because the reporter was talking about how they were removing my result from the results so I was disenchanted in that instant as anyone would be. That didn't last long, I swam 1K last night and got about 20,000 steps in yesterday. I am not holding my breath right now on WTC. Last year at this time we already had the year planned out. As of now we really don't have the race schedule at all. Personally, part of the decision to do this race again, yet another reason is that in two years time when this race comes back, if it comes back, I will hopefully be competing again in Kona and skipping on the pro race if there is one. I am not sure when I am leaving for Tucson. Right now I am entertaining the possibility of doing IMCHATT and skipping Silverman.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [McBoyler] [ In reply to ]
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Its' funny, I jokingly encouraged a certain local female pro to do the race just for fun and to sort of "screw with" WTC for pulling pro fields in these races and creating this ambiguity over what is or isn't an "ironman champion". She was for some reason more interested in doing races that pay money. Probably even more interested in not creating controversy that might hurt her image for sponsors (she's a class act, more than I am clearly).

She'll fortunately get to race next and will hopefully win it again.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Honest question. When Challenge cancelled a bunch of races - for instance Challenge Atlantic City, they still invited pros to come compete anyway. I realize that most pros are not going to put in a lot of travel to go race, but almost every pro I know races some local triathlon to them. Do you have the same view for those pros doing those local races? If not why the differing view here.

Are you really asking this or are you trying to be obtuse? Call me obtuse, but I think racing a WTC santioned Ironman is certainly different than racing a 'local' race. Are you submitting a podium finish performance bonus for this race?


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [McBoyler] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
McBoyler wrote:
To claim he would have won is a bit much. He came off the bike in second and he would have had to run with Clay Emge (also former pro last year) The sad part about this whole thing is that even gives precedent to Rudy's story here. WTC can figure it out in Boulder for Clay (former pro) but couldn't figure it out for Rudy.

TRS racing gave Thomas a forum to speak. Whether you like Thomas or not he is bringing up points that need to be addressed by the WTC. End of story.

You are right. I would not have been able to run down Clay. I did feel like pulling out was the right thing to do though.

What happened with Rudy is PROOF that WTC needs to fix the policies. Something needs to change if there is no pro field in WTC races.

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [colinlaughery] [ In reply to ]
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The rules my be muddled but I think the intent WTC has with these races has been clear since they were announced.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [colinlaughery] [ In reply to ]
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Colin - That was not a back handed comment to you by any means. I follow your blog regularly and really admire how you speak to the life and family balance with triathlon. You have massive talent and I am rooting for you in Chatt!

I just wanted to add to the perspective. Im just a massive fan of the sport. There are a lot of personalities in triathlon - regardless of which ones we like there are points being made on both sides that need to be addressed, thats all.

Lets not let ego drive the change we all want to see for long course racing....
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Just for the record, you are aware that Pros do no pro-races all the time don't you? I do a handful a year every year. Nobody ever seems to complain when I show up at those.

I guess the difference I see between this and a race like Lake Mills is that WTC has a pro series and you got a license to compete in that series. That's the category you chose for WTC races. Lake Mills is just a local triathlon open to anyone. Even if the rules technically allow you to enter, by not having a pro race IMWI wasn't really open to pros and you knew that.

I'm not saying you broke the rules, obviously you didn't, and I really don't care that you raced. It's not like I was going to win the overall. I just don't think it's fair for a current WTC pro to drop down and race an age group only race. Just like I don't think it would have been fair if Gwen Jorgensen would have raced AG Nationals this year and won her age group.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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While I agree about WTC's intent, and maybe I assumed their intent incorrectly, but then why did they let TG race in the first place?

Maybe those that were involved can shed light on why TG was granted entry when they knew exactly who he was.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bryancd wrote:
The rules my be muddled but I think the intent WTC has with these races has been clear since they were announced.

Yes, the intent is that WTC stops paying out money and giving out KPR points at some races. I'm not sure they thought it through much more than that and this is the result.

If I'm a pro I want to know why my $1000 annual pro membership fee that lets me race in all WTC races for "free" and on short notice no longer gets me "free" and late entry to races without KPR points and prize money. Where does it state this in the annual membership agreements?
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
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I could be wrong, but I think Thomas was not included in any AG awards. So he wasn't even taking anything away from anyone, especially considering how the finish line was handled when the 2nd place AG (3rd overall) came in. They completed their transaction for a spot, and acted like babies when he won.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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Bryancd wrote:
The rules my be muddled but I think the intent WTC has with these races has been clear since they were announced.

I think WTC's intent was to consolidate more Pro talent at a select few races, versus having the Pro talent diluted at many races.

I don't necessarily agree that there was an intent to have only amateurs at the events without a Pro race.

If that was indeed the intent, then TG should have been turned away on Friday.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [apbadger] [ In reply to ]
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apbadger wrote:
I could be wrong, but I think Thomas was not included in any AG awards. So he wasn't even taking anything away from anyone, especially considering how the finish line was handled when the 2nd place AG (3rd overall) came in. They completed their transaction for a spot, and acted like babies when he won.

It would be fascinating to me to know more about who "they" is. That is, who made the original call to exclude Thomas and Rudy. RD? Mike Reilly? Messick or someone else off-site?

My totally WAG is that Reilly took the initiative on this, and made the announcement of his own volition. Zero evidence, just a gut feeling.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [bcagle25] [ In reply to ]
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bcagle25 wrote:
While I agree about WTC's intent, and maybe I assumed their intent incorrectly, but then why did they let TG race in the first place?

Maybe those that were involved can shed light on why TG was granted entry when they knew exactly who he was.

They probably have no system in place to catch that as they never considered a pro would bother to show up and race.

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Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Love the removing of the posts in this thread, too.


LOL
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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It's baffling to me that this situation hasn't come up before now. There are a ton of IM branded events, most (I think) without Pro races/prize purses.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [davearm] [ In reply to ]
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davearm wrote:
It's baffling to me that this situation hasn't come up before now. There are a ton of IM branded events, most (I think) without Pro races/prize purses.

There are? I mean this year more then last but a ton?

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [davearm] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
davearm wrote:
It's baffling to me that this situation hasn't come up before now. There are a ton of IM branded events, most (I think) without Pro races/prize purses.

This year is the first year that races, like Wisconsin, that 'had' a pro field and prize purse were run as age group only races. On the order of 20 races in North America that 'had' prize money and official pro fields last year do not have them this year.

In the past, IM Maryland was the only WTC full-distance event without a pro field. IM Muskoka was announced and when it was announced, there was no pro field that was going to be contested. But this is officially the first year that so many of the North American events did not have professional fields or were essentially age grouper only races.


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Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bryancd wrote:
davearm wrote:
It's baffling to me that this situation hasn't come up before now. There are a ton of IM branded events, most (I think) without Pro races/prize purses.


There are? I mean this year more then last but a ton?


I count 41 full IM races and 90 70.3 races.

I have no clue how those break down in terms of having Pro purses. My assumption is that most do not, especially amongst all of those 70.3s. I could be incorrect.
Last edited by: davearm: Sep 15, 15 12:16
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [erengel23] [ In reply to ]
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You sure do have a lot of pages about yourself to not be a pro.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
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Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
Just for the record, you are aware that Pros do no pro-races all the time don't you? I do a handful a year every year. Nobody ever seems to complain when I show up at those.

I just don't think it's fair for a current WTC pro to drop down and race an age group only race. Just like I don't think it would have been fair if Gwen Jorgensen would have raced AG Nationals this year and won her age group.

It's not at all comparable to Gwen racing AG Nationals. You know why? Because AG Nationals IS an Age Group ONLY race. They DO NOT let pros race, period. Which is different than WTC who has races that happen to not have pro purses or a pro wave. Those are not "Age Group ONLY" races. Anyone can show up and compete overall (with the explicitly stated exception that pros can not get age group awards). The AGers that are sad they didn't win the overall need to go faster, not eliminate their competition because they feel they can't beat them. If that's not what WTC intended to happen, they need to change their rules. Now, whether it's classless for a pro to show up and beat down on a bunch of amateurs, sure, that's up for discussion. But should TG have been announced the winner? Per the current rules - definitely.

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Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [KellyNCollier] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
KellyNCollier wrote:
Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
Just for the record, you are aware that Pros do no pro-races all the time don't you? I do a handful a year every year. Nobody ever seems to complain when I show up at those.

I just don't think it's fair for a current WTC pro to drop down and race an age group only race. Just like I don't think it would have been fair if Gwen Jorgensen would have raced AG Nationals this year and won her age group.


It's not at all comparable to Gwen racing AG Nationals. You know why? Because AG Nationals IS an Age Group ONLY race. They DO NOT let pros race, period. Which is different than WTC who has races that happen to not have pro purses or a pro wave. Those are not "Age Group ONLY" races. Anyone can show up and compete overall (with the explicitly stated exception that pros can not get age group awards). The AGers that are sad they didn't win the overall need to go faster, not eliminate their competition because they feel they can't beat them. If that's not what WTC intended to happen, they need to change their rules. Now, whether it's classless for a pro to show up and beat down on a bunch of amateurs, sure, that's up for discussion. But should TG have been announced the winner? Per the current rules - definitely.

it absolutely is.....on this forum.....because the pro in question chose to come on here and make a big deal about the situation....more than once.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [KellyNCollier] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
Because AG Nationals IS an Age Group ONLY race.

From the athlete tracker:

Welcome to the 2015 IRONMAN Wisconsin

Please note that the 2015 IRONMAN Wisconsin is an age group only race.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Poor use of words for Ironman to explain that there is no pro race to follow. WTC nullified it being an "Age Group Only" race when they let TG enter.

http://trainingwheelsrequired.wordpress.com
@KellyNCollier
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Little more than my hometown. I went to school, I currently live about block a way from the finish. I regularly swim in the lake. I always run on the lakeshore path, and if I do ride my bike it is usually on the Ironman course. The run course goes by all 3 of my college residences.

racing age groupers as a pro WITH home field advantage...just wow

Im kidding haha that is funny though. Who cares about results - you got to race in your home town!
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
Because AG Nationals IS an Age Group ONLY race.


From the athlete tracker:

Welcome to the 2015 IRONMAN Wisconsin

Please note that the 2015 IRONMAN Wisconsin is an age group only race.

That is correct. There was no Pro race, only an AG race.

It's also separate and distinct from "only age group athletes allowed".

Obviously Pros were allowed. Or, at least one was.

The parallel to smaller races where local pros show up is perfect IMO.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [KellyNCollier] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
My guess is that WTC didn't want pro entering races without a pro field but they didn't write that into the rules so they can't really stop them from signing up. I think they need to decide and then make it clear in the rules.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
Because AG Nationals IS an Age Group ONLY race.


From the athlete tracker:

Welcome to the 2015 IRONMAN Wisconsin

Please note that the 2015 IRONMAN Wisconsin is an age group only race.

And just like local races where there is an elite field and it doesn't count towards age group divisions, it seems it was the same on Sunday.

TG shows up in overall, not in age group.

As I think we have all concluded here, there is a lot of confusing language that WTC is using. I am sure they didn't expect this to happen, but I am not surprised in the least bit. Just curious to see where this all goes. Are pros banned from racing these races? I think that would be very unfair, and look at TG's reasons for racing Sunday to see why.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bryancd wrote:
bcagle25 wrote:
While I agree about WTC's intent, and maybe I assumed their intent incorrectly, but then why did they let TG race in the first place?

Maybe those that were involved can shed light on why TG was granted entry when they knew exactly who he was.


They probably have no system in place to catch that as they never considered a pro would bother to show up and race.

See Jack Toland's post on the first page of this thread about Melanie McQuaid racing at her local WTC race earlier this season, Victoria 70.3. The only difference for that race and TG at IMW might be that she signed up for the race earlier.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:

Honest question. When Challenge cancelled a bunch of races - for instance Challenge Atlantic City, they still invited pros to come compete anyway. I realize that most pros are not going to put in a lot of travel to go race, but almost every pro I know races some local triathlon to them. Do you have the same view for those pros doing those local races? If not why the differing view here.


Are you really asking this or are you trying to be obtuse? Call me obtuse, but I think racing a WTC santioned Ironman is certainly different than racing a 'local' race. Are you submitting a podium finish performance bonus for this race?


I have not asked for any performance bonuses and I would not expect any. I didn't pump up the fact that I was going to race, nor did I ask for any special recognition post race. I was going to craft a social media message with the simple message, "occasionally as pros we get lost in the search of money and forget why we got into sport for the first place #ForTheLoveOfTheGame". But since there were no photographers there was no decent finish photo so I didn't bother.

And yes I asked if there was any special sanctioning from WTC in regards to this particular issue. There is not according to Heather. I am sure when/if Dan/Herbert do some reporting on this issue they will figure it out.


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Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: Sep 15, 15 18:06
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ironmayb wrote:
KellyNCollier wrote:
Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
Just for the record, you are aware that Pros do no pro-races all the time don't you? I do a handful a year every year. Nobody ever seems to complain when I show up at those.

I just don't think it's fair for a current WTC pro to drop down and race an age group only race. Just like I don't think it would have been fair if Gwen Jorgensen would have raced AG Nationals this year and won her age group.


It's not at all comparable to Gwen racing AG Nationals. You know why? Because AG Nationals IS an Age Group ONLY race. They DO NOT let pros race, period. Which is different than WTC who has races that happen to not have pro purses or a pro wave. Those are not "Age Group ONLY" races. Anyone can show up and compete overall (with the explicitly stated exception that pros can not get age group awards). The AGers that are sad they didn't win the overall need to go faster, not eliminate their competition because they feel they can't beat them. If that's not what WTC intended to happen, they need to change their rules. Now, whether it's classless for a pro to show up and beat down on a bunch of amateurs, sure, that's up for discussion. But should TG have been announced the winner? Per the current rules - definitely.


it absolutely is.....on this forum.....because the pro in question chose to come on here and make a big deal about the situation....more than once.

For the record, I couldn't go anywhere because my keys where in my bag and my bag was not available to retrieve so I grabbed a laptop from a vendor and got to work. In case you don't know, there are time limits in place for filing protests about stuff and I wanted to make it known right away publicly that there was an issue and protesting it. At the race sight it didn't seem that anyone from Ironman was to interested in getting to the bottom of this quickly.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [colinlaughery] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
colinlaughery wrote:
McBoyler wrote:
To claim he would have won is a bit much. He came off the bike in second and he would have had to run with Clay Emge (also former pro last year) The sad part about this whole thing is that even gives precedent to Rudy's story here. WTC can figure it out in Boulder for Clay (former pro) but couldn't figure it out for Rudy.

TRS racing gave Thomas a forum to speak. Whether you like Thomas or not he is bringing up points that need to be addressed by the WTC. End of story.


You are right. I would not have been able to run down Clay. I did feel like pulling out was the right thing to do though.

What happened with Rudy is PROOF that WTC needs to fix the policies. Something needs to change if there is no pro field in WTC races.

This is not a dig against you Colin at all. For those that don't know we actually had a nice discussion post IM Racine 70.3. But it is really easy to sit there and say you are going to pull out. Had you gotten off in first and the spotlight been on you then you may have done something different - like run. Had I stopped off the bike or stopped at 13.1 I would have had so many people ask why would you drop out when you had such a big lead. I would have received the same sort of hate - likely the hate would have come from other people but there would still be a ton of hate.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
ironmayb wrote:
KellyNCollier wrote:
Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
Just for the record, you are aware that Pros do no pro-races all the time don't you? I do a handful a year every year. Nobody ever seems to complain when I show up at those.

I just don't think it's fair for a current WTC pro to drop down and race an age group only race. Just like I don't think it would have been fair if Gwen Jorgensen would have raced AG Nationals this year and won her age group.


It's not at all comparable to Gwen racing AG Nationals. You know why? Because AG Nationals IS an Age Group ONLY race. They DO NOT let pros race, period. Which is different than WTC who has races that happen to not have pro purses or a pro wave. Those are not "Age Group ONLY" races. Anyone can show up and compete overall (with the explicitly stated exception that pros can not get age group awards). The AGers that are sad they didn't win the overall need to go faster, not eliminate their competition because they feel they can't beat them. If that's not what WTC intended to happen, they need to change their rules. Now, whether it's classless for a pro to show up and beat down on a bunch of amateurs, sure, that's up for discussion. But should TG have been announced the winner? Per the current rules - definitely.


it absolutely is.....on this forum.....because the pro in question chose to come on here and make a big deal about the situation....more than once.


For the record, I couldn't go anywhere because my keys where in my bag and my bag was not available to retrieve so I grabbed a laptop from a vendor and got to work. In case you don't know, there are time limits in place for filing protests about stuff and I wanted to make it known right away publicly that there was an issue and protesting it. At the race sight it didn't seem that anyone from Ironman was to interested in getting to the bottom of this quickly.

I cant figure out if you really don't get it or you really don't care or both.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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BTW, I ran 18 miles on Monday. People doing an Ironman don't run 18 miles on the Monday before.


And you are coming back from injury? You are crazy and that's why I love you...

Swimmer
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Post deleted by bmeer [ In reply to ]
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I have not read this whole thread, but Frederic Limousine, a French pro who raced in 70.3 worlds the other week, won the overall at 70.3 Hawaii this year, which did not have a pro field. He did not get age group awards but he was brought up on stage, announced as Ironman 70.3 champion and they put a huge wreath around his neck.

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Last edited by: RowToTri: Sep 15, 15 15:04
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
Just for the record, you are aware that Pros do no pro-races all the time don't you? I do a handful a year every year. Nobody ever seems to complain when I show up at those.


I guess the difference I see between this and a race like Lake Mills is that WTC has a pro series and you got a license to compete in that series. That's the category you chose for WTC races. Lake Mills is just a local triathlon open to anyone. Even if the rules technically allow you to enter, by not having a pro race IMWI wasn't really open to pros and you knew that.

I'm not saying you broke the rules, obviously you didn't, and I really don't care that you raced. It's not like I was going to win the overall. I just don't think it's fair for a current WTC pro to drop down and race an age group only race. Just like I don't think it would have been fair if Gwen Jorgensen would have raced AG Nationals this year and won her age group.

Fair has nothing to do with this. It is not fair that people are more attractive, have more talent, more money, more intelligence. Life is not fair.
Of course he didn't break any rules. He did not race age group. The only difference was that in this Ironman there was no pro payout. No elite.

He did not take anything away from you or any other athlete. He had every right to race. Just as much as you. Your Gwen analogy is not valid as you had to qualify for AG nationals.
Last edited by: Pat0: Sep 15, 15 15:08
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas --

Let me first say that I think you're totally in the right here. Once Ironman took your registration and handed you a bib and a chip, you were legit. If you cross first, you're the winner. I'd even have no problem saying they were right to let you in.

That said, there are a few things you need to own here.

One, getting into the race two days out is not something that just anyone could have pulled off. Regardless of whether anyone else got in at the last minute, if you and I had walked into Monona Terrace together on Friday, I would have been told "sorry charlie, sold out" at the solutions desk. So you need to acknowledge the "unlevel playing field" critique, at least as it pertains to registration.

Two, the "just seeing where my knee is at" rationale is awful. You could have done that any day last week or this week, on the IM course or on any of your (our) other local routes. You didn't need a race environment for this purpose.

Three, "I would have gotten a bunch of hate if I dropped out" is obfuscating. Fact is, with the day unfolding the way it did, you probably didn't want to drop out. Seems reasonable to assume once you were leading off the bike, you wanted to finish, and you wanted to win. That's hardly something to apologize for, so don't.

All you need to say is, "I wanted to race, they let me race, so I raced to win, and I did win."

Hope that didn't come across as overly harsh. If we ever cross paths running or biking, I'd love to chat for the 60 or so seconds I could hold your recovery pace.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
He dosn't get it! And around Dec 31st he'll be pounding he's chest, telling us about all the miles he's logged.......vanity is a funny thing.

100% BS
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Beachboy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Beachboy wrote:
He dosn't get it! And around Dec 31st he'll be pounding he's chest, telling us about all the miles he's logged.......vanity is a funny thing.

100% BS

Yeah but he really kicked some serious ass this weekend tho....pink
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Beachboy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Beachboy wrote:
He dosn't get it! And around Dec 31st he'll be pounding he's chest, telling us about all the miles he's logged.......vanity is a funny thing.

100% BS

Have u ever seen me show up to a group ride? I bring the wordt bike imaginable, almost to the point that people are embarrassed, I can assure you - vanity is not my thing.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Pat0] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
Fair has nothing to do with this. It is not fair that people are more attractive, have more talent, more money, more intelligence. Life is not fair.

I think fair has everything to do with this. He didn't break rules so this wasn't cheating, but was this fair play or not?

I don't think it's fair for someone who chooses to race the WTC pro series to drop down a category to race against amateurs. Yes, it's a grey area and I can see the other side of the argument since he didn't break rules. I also understand his motivation to race, and I'm not upset he did the race. I just don't think it's fair for pros to drop down.


Quote:
He did not take anything away from you or any other athlete.

Yes he did. He took the overall win away. It's a race and we race for position and he took a position away.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thomas, I think this was all very ill advised.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bryancd wrote:
Thomas, I think this was all very ill advised.

QOTD



---------------------------------------
Fruit snacks are for winners
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Why is Thomas getting so much crap for this when other pros have raced WTC races without pro fields this year and won? Is it just because he is a slowtwitch member?

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes I have......I was a Bucky (but moved) and Tucson is my second home also....

So yes, I know who you are...you only came whining on ST b/c you know there is always some one willing to take the anti-ironman position. You could have just walk over to the officials, got what you needed and taken your lumps like a PRO. But that's just me.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
Fair has nothing to do with this. It is not fair that people are more attractive, have more talent, more money, more intelligence. Life is not fair.


I think fair has everything to do with this. He didn't break rules so this wasn't cheating, but was this fair play or not?

I don't think it's fair for someone who chooses to race the WTC pro series to drop down a category to race against amateurs. Yes, it's a grey area and I can see the other side of the argument since he didn't break rules. I also understand his motivation to race, and I'm not upset he did the race. I just don't think it's fair for pros to drop down.


Quote:
He did not take anything away from you or any other athlete.


Yes he did. He took the overall win away. It's a race and we race for position and he took a position away.
Wrong. You can't "take any thing away" if you never had it. He earned the win. There was no pro purse or pro category but he was free to race. And win. End of story.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I must have missed those other pro's threads and podcast interview.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That's what I mean. There were no interviews or threads that I am aware of. No one seemed to care until this.

-------------
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RowToTri wrote:
I have not read this whole thread, but Frederic Limousine, a French pro who raced in 70.3 worlds the other week, won the overall at 70.3 Hawaii this year, which did not have a pro field. He did not get age group awards but he was brought up on stage, announced as Ironman 70.3 champion and they put a huge wreath around his neck.

Yep and as you said, you didn't read the whole thread, the same thing happened at Ironman Victoria 70.3 with Mel Mcquaid. She got the whole finish line experience.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [bmeer] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bmeer wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
Thomas, I think this was all very ill advised.


QOTD

Funny to click off this thread and find this article...

http://www.ironman.com/...d.aspx#axzz3lAozGx2h
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thomas,

Can you find the terms of your annual pro membership? Why did you have to purchase separately an entry to IMWI? Where in your pro membership agreement does it say that your membership allows you to race WTC events for free and on short notice, but only for races that have a pro purse and KPR points?
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
FWIW Kendra Lee had the fastest women's overall time at IMC in 2012 (9:44:58). She was an age grouper. She was not acknowledged as the overall women's champion...pro athlete Gillian Clayton (9:46:07) was. Kendra didn't get the "finish line experience" or the post race interviews, etc. Gillian did. So it seems that if an age grouper wins a race that has a professional field, they don't get to be the "champion", but if a pro wins an age group race, they DO get to be declared the winner? Pros - win/win...age groupers, lose/lose. You shouldn't be able to have it both ways.

Kendra was not even mentioned in the local paper the next day...
http://www.pentictonherald.ca/...48-81b27b0c4360.html
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Why? because as he put it " I grabbed a laptop from a vendor and got to work. In case you don't know, there are time limits in place for filing protests."
A protest for what??? That he didnt get to break the tape? What is Thomas even protesting about? This whole thing just reeks of why there are only 10-25 "pros" in the sport. TG clearly doesnt get it.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [glowstickgirl] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Different situation in that she didn't start at the same time as the pros and raced under AG rules, vs pro rules..
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bryancd wrote:
Thomas, I think this was all very ill advised.

I've been tilting at that windmill since sun night. Good luck. That god awful podcast was where I threw in the towel
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
funny, i bet if the top AG winner beat TG - that person and news outlets would be bragging all over they beat a pro. So pro's have a place. They set standards - x:xx time is likely the best one can do on Y course.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
synthetic wrote:
funny, i bet if the top AG winner beat TG - that person and news outlets would be bragging all over they beat a pro. So pro's have a place. They set standards - x:xx time is likely the best one can do on Y course.

Really...... Well let's take the current Pro as the subject and OP of this thread as an example. Why don't you look at the results of previous years of the same race and see if there weren't AGers who finished faster than he did. Then look to see if he has ever won an ironman in which other pros raced. Then do the math. You may find some of these pros aren't as super as you think. The difference is most that I have encounter at least act professionally in the process
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Beachboy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Beachboy wrote:
He dosn't get it! And around Dec 31st he'll be pounding he's chest, telling us about all the miles he's logged.......vanity is a funny thing.

100% BS

Dude - Way off here. Don't knock Thomas's character. That's not even close to who he is. One of the reasons I was inspired to go for a pro card was because of the openness and transparency of a blog that he has kept.

Keep the personal bashing sh** out of this. This has been a fairly productive conversation that needs to be had. Comments like this bring the quality of discussion down quickly.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Team_Doc28] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Team_Doc28 wrote:
Why? because as he put it " I grabbed a laptop from a vendor and got to work. In case you don't know, there are time limits in place for filing protests."
A protest for what??? That he didnt get to break the tape? What is Thomas even protesting about? This whole thing just reeks of why there are only 10-25 "pros" in the sport. TG clearly doesnt get it.

What exactly don't I get? At that time protesting why my results were removed from the official finishers list. You know even the top pros only earn a small amount of their paycheck thru prize money correct so would you really have a problem with me standing up for myself as the overall winner of the race for the sake of consistency?


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ironmayb wrote:
synthetic wrote:
funny, i bet if the top AG winner beat TG - that person and news outlets would be bragging all over they beat a pro. So pro's have a place. They set standards - x:xx time is likely the best one can do on Y course.


Really...... Well let's take the current Pro as the subject and OP of this thread as an example. Why don't you look at the results of previous years of the same race and see if there weren't AGers who finished faster than he did. Then look to see if he has ever won an ironman in which other pros raced. Then do the math. You may find some of these pros aren't as super as you think. The difference is most that I have encounter at least act professionally in the process

you know TG took it not 100% coming of injury and testing new things out. I propose you provide this research when making a point - because many abstract observations can be made.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [kny] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
kny wrote:
Thomas,

Can you find the terms of your annual pro membership? Why did you have to purchase separately an entry to IMWI? Where in your pro membership agreement does it say that your membership allows you to race WTC events for free and on short notice, but only for races that have a pro purse and KPR points?

I posted this earlier in the thread, but here are the rules straight from WTC:

Here are the details for PROS racing non pro races:

Professional athletes may compete in events that are not identified as IRONMAN or IRONMAN 70.3 Professional Qualification and validation events. The policy and procedure is as follows:
1. Entry will be through the general entry process at the current entry price.
2. There is no official Pro/ Elite Division/Wave however, pro athletes must declare their professional status during the registration process.
3. Pro/ elite athletes will race with their respective age-group wave, or in the case of a rolling start, will stage themselves accordingly.
4. Athletes will be competing according to the age-group Rules of the event.
5. Pros are NOT eligible for Age Group awards or qualifying slots and are not included in age group results.
6. If overall awards are presented, they are eligible for these awards.

I will provide the athlete services team with your name, so they can make note of your professional status.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Training/Racing Log - http://www.earthdaykid.com/blog --- Old Training/Racing Log - http://colinlaughery.blogspot.com
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ironmayb wrote:
synthetic wrote:
funny, i bet if the top AG winner beat TG - that person and news outlets would be bragging all over they beat a pro. So pro's have a place. They set standards - x:xx time is likely the best one can do on Y course.


Really...... Well let's take the current Pro as the subject and OP of this thread as an example. Why don't you look at the results of previous years of the same race and see if there weren't AGers who finished faster than he did. Then look to see if he has ever won an ironman in which other pros raced. Then do the math. You may find some of these pros aren't as super as you think. The difference is most that I have encounter at least act professionally in the process

Would be curious to know what your real name is? It seems like sitting behind a computer and slinging mud is just a SUPER professional thing to do.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
synthetic wrote:
ironmayb wrote:
synthetic wrote:
funny, i bet if the top AG winner beat TG - that person and news outlets would be bragging all over they beat a pro. So pro's have a place. They set standards - x:xx time is likely the best one can do on Y course.


Really...... Well let's take the current Pro as the subject and OP of this thread as an example. Why don't you look at the results of previous years of the same race and see if there weren't AGers who finished faster than he did. Then look to see if he has ever won an ironman in which other pros raced. Then do the math. You may find some of these pros aren't as super as you think. The difference is most that I have encounter at least act professionally in the process

you know TG took it not 100% coming of injury and testing new things out. I propose you provide this research when making a point - because many abstract observations can be made.

I have no idea what point your making. But I defintely agree that TG took it.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [colinlaughery] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
colinlaughery wrote:
kny wrote:
Thomas,

Can you find the terms of your annual pro membership? Why did you have to purchase separately an entry to IMWI? Where in your pro membership agreement does it say that your membership allows you to race WTC events for free and on short notice, but only for races that have a pro purse and KPR points?


I posted this earlier in the thread, but here are the rules straight from WTC:

Here are the details for PROS racing non pro races:

Professional athletes may compete in events that are not identified as IRONMAN or IRONMAN 70.3 Professional Qualification and validation events. The policy and procedure is as follows:
1. Entry will be through the general entry process at the current entry price.
2. There is no official Pro/ Elite Division/Wave however, pro athletes must declare their professional status during the registration process.
3. Pro/ elite athletes will race with their respective age-group wave, or in the case of a rolling start, will stage themselves accordingly.
4. Athletes will be competing according to the age-group Rules of the event.
5. Pros are NOT eligible for Age Group awards or qualifying slots and are not included in age group results.
6. If overall awards are presented, they are eligible for these awards.

I will provide the athlete services team with your name, so they can make note of your professional status.

Thanks. Contrary to what I and others have previously stated, it does seem like WTC has thought it through and certainly intended for pros to be allowed to race non scoring IMs. Which then makes me wonder why the heck they ignored his finish and pulled him from results. My guess is that one person on-site made a call, the wrong call, and that's the extent of it.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Keep digging Thomas you are doing a fantastic job for yourself and your sponsors
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't think any amateurs have gone faster than TG went on the day. Properly motivated, I do think that JB or DS could easily go that fast on IMWI at this point in time.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You dont get that a pro shouldnt give a rip if they are included or not included in a non pro or AG only (whatever you want to call it) race. I would guess that 95% of card carrying pros in your position would have thought that was weird/odd the way the whole finish line thing went down, but they would have gone on about their day. Not look for the closest computer available and start a rant on ST.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Team_Doc28] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Team_Doc28 wrote:
You dont get that a pro shouldnt give a rip if they are included or not included in a non pro or AG only (whatever you want to call it) race. I would guess that 95% of card carrying pros in your position would have thought that was weird/odd the way the whole finish line thing went down, but they would have gone on about their day. Not look for the closest computer available and start a rant on ST.


For the record 95% of my peers don't come on ST because frankly they can't handle criticism. In addition 95% of my peers wouldn't have realistically been in that position. it just isn't that easy to win an Ironman and when you race a race so unprepared against so many athletes that are you have a great chance of failure. The other 5% who would win wouldn't show IMO because it isn't worth their time to do so.


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Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: Sep 15, 15 22:36
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [kny] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
kny wrote:
colinlaughery wrote:
kny wrote:
Thomas,

Can you find the terms of your annual pro membership? Why did you have to purchase separately an entry to IMWI? Where in your pro membership agreement does it say that your membership allows you to race WTC events for free and on short notice, but only for races that have a pro purse and KPR points?


I posted this earlier in the thread, but here are the rules straight from WTC:

Here are the details for PROS racing non pro races:

Professional athletes may compete in events that are not identified as IRONMAN or IRONMAN 70.3 Professional Qualification and validation events. The policy and procedure is as follows:
1. Entry will be through the general entry process at the current entry price.
2. There is no official Pro/ Elite Division/Wave however, pro athletes must declare their professional status during the registration process.
3. Pro/ elite athletes will race with their respective age-group wave, or in the case of a rolling start, will stage themselves accordingly.
4. Athletes will be competing according to the age-group Rules of the event.
5. Pros are NOT eligible for Age Group awards or qualifying slots and are not included in age group results.
6. If overall awards are presented, they are eligible for these awards.

I will provide the athlete services team with your name, so they can make note of your professional status.

Thanks. Contrary to what I and others have previously stated, it does seem like WTC has thought it through and certainly intended for pros to be allowed to race non scoring IMs. Which then makes me wonder why the heck they ignored his finish and pulled him from results. My guess is that one person on-site made a call, the wrong call, and that's the extent of it.

All of this. The wording seems very clear and apparently precedent has been set at other races. Why someone chose to ignore the rules and ignore TG's finish is the real question. Very odd situation all around.

Formerly DrD
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ironmayb wrote:
Keep digging Thomas you are doing a fantastic job for yourself and your sponsors

Love one of your very first posts on here - not hypocritical at all:

"I try very hard not to feed the trolls.
As opposed to most of your generic posts in which you refer to "fatties" or "posers" etc. you have chosen to become specific about specific people here.

Heather Gollnick is my coach, my friend, and a person who believes in God.

I suspect if you were to speak to her she would tell you that some of the obstacles in her life were put there by God, some by other means and some by herself. For instance she chooses to put triathlons in front of her as an obstacle and God helps her overcome the most difficult times within a race .

I don't believe Heather (or the others you site) are "pitching" God; they are simply living their lives and stating what they believe. Whether you choose to listen or not is up to you.

I was speaking with Heather on Monday to put my taper together for IMOO. She was calling from the airport in Iowa where she just finished 2nd at Pigman. She's in the "triathlon business" too only when she waits for airplanes she chooses to do her job rather than posting boring drivel on a forum. Maybe that's why she wipes the floor with guys like me and you at events.

The other thing about Heather and the others you site is that when she is out speaking about God (or "pitching" God) she is out there as herself not hiding behind some alias. This opens her to critique from other people who can critique her by name while she states her beliefs. See this is called "courage". You may want to try it some time.

As to how I would feel about Faris is he sported an Allah bandana I would think he was a man of belief. Belief in God. In fact belief in the same God as I do. The God of Abraham. Now if Faris told me he wanted to cut my head off because some of our beliefs are different I would begin to think and act much differently............

Jeff May (see this is where you crawl out from behind the alias) "


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Broken Leg Guy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Broken Leg Guy wrote:
kny wrote:
colinlaughery wrote:
kny wrote:
Thomas,

Can you find the terms of your annual pro membership? Why did you have to purchase separately an entry to IMWI? Where in your pro membership agreement does it say that your membership allows you to race WTC events for free and on short notice, but only for races that have a pro purse and KPR points?


I posted this earlier in the thread, but here are the rules straight from WTC:

Here are the details for PROS racing non pro races:

Professional athletes may compete in events that are not identified as IRONMAN or IRONMAN 70.3 Professional Qualification and validation events. The policy and procedure is as follows:
1. Entry will be through the general entry process at the current entry price.
2. There is no official Pro/ Elite Division/Wave however, pro athletes must declare their professional status during the registration process.
3. Pro/ elite athletes will race with their respective age-group wave, or in the case of a rolling start, will stage themselves accordingly.
4. Athletes will be competing according to the age-group Rules of the event.
5. Pros are NOT eligible for Age Group awards or qualifying slots and are not included in age group results.
6. If overall awards are presented, they are eligible for these awards.

I will provide the athlete services team with your name, so they can make note of your professional status.


Thanks. Contrary to what I and others have previously stated, it does seem like WTC has thought it through and certainly intended for pros to be allowed to race non scoring IMs. Which then makes me wonder why the heck they ignored his finish and pulled him from results. My guess is that one person on-site made a call, the wrong call, and that's the extent of it.


All of this. The wording seems very clear and apparently precedent has been set at other races. Why someone chose to ignore the rules and ignore TG's finish is the real question. Very odd situation all around.

Which is what I am trying to get the bottom of. Why in this particular instance they blew it. Is it a Mike Reilly thing? From what I can tell all the other races where this happened did not have Mike Reilly. I highly doubt I will get something in writing clarifying why it occurred this way in this single instance.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [sentania] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sentania wrote:
I don't think any amateurs have gone faster than TG went on the day. Properly motivated, I do think that JB or DS could easily go that fast on IMWI at this point in time.

Burke is a monster, and publicly I said he was the most talented amateur at Kona last year, however he didn't win because of what I thought was poor execution. Dan is a monster amateur but I think his weakness would be his swim in the pro ranks. Swim is so critical in the pro ranks and biking with a group of guys is always easier than biking by yourself. I would have welcomed any amatuers out there including those two.


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Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Broken Leg Guy wrote:
kny wrote:
colinlaughery wrote:
kny wrote:
Thomas,

Can you find the terms of your annual pro membership? Why did you have to purchase separately an entry to IMWI? Where in your pro membership agreement does it say that your membership allows you to race WTC events for free and on short notice, but only for races that have a pro purse and KPR points?


I posted this earlier in the thread, but here are the rules straight from WTC:

Here are the details for PROS racing non pro races:

Professional athletes may compete in events that are not identified as IRONMAN or IRONMAN 70.3 Professional Qualification and validation events. The policy and procedure is as follows:
1. Entry will be through the general entry process at the current entry price.
2. There is no official Pro/ Elite Division/Wave however, pro athletes must declare their professional status during the registration process.
3. Pro/ elite athletes will race with their respective age-group wave, or in the case of a rolling start, will stage themselves accordingly.
4. Athletes will be competing according to the age-group Rules of the event.
5. Pros are NOT eligible for Age Group awards or qualifying slots and are not included in age group results.
6. If overall awards are presented, they are eligible for these awards.

I will provide the athlete services team with your name, so they can make note of your professional status.


Thanks. Contrary to what I and others have previously stated, it does seem like WTC has thought it through and certainly intended for pros to be allowed to race non scoring IMs. Which then makes me wonder why the heck they ignored his finish and pulled him from results. My guess is that one person on-site made a call, the wrong call, and that's the extent of it.


All of this. The wording seems very clear and apparently precedent has been set at other races. Why someone chose to ignore the rules and ignore TG's finish is the real question. Very odd situation all around.

Which is what I am trying to get the bottom of. Why in this particular instance they blew it. Is it a Mike Reilly thing? From what I can tell all the other races where this happened did not have Mike Reilly. I highly doubt I will get something in writing clarifying why it occurred this way in this single instance.

For the record I have no problem with you or any pros racing in these races. I think under the circumstances WTC owes you an explanation and an apology. If they didn't intend or want this scenario to occur they need to change their own policy.

Formerly DrD
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It's comments like that TG are why you're getting blasted over this. Not helping your cause.
Last edited by: Tricoastal: Sep 15, 15 20:43
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
ironmayb wrote:
Keep digging Thomas you are doing a fantastic job for yourself and your sponsors

Love one of your very first posts on here - not hypocritical at all:

"I try very hard not to feed the trolls.
As opposed to most of your generic posts in which you refer to "fatties" or "posers" etc. you have chosen to become specific about specific people here.

Heather Gollnick is my coach, my friend, and a person who believes in God.

I suspect if you were to speak to her she would tell you that some of the obstacles in her life were put there by God, some by other means and some by herself. For instance she chooses to put triathlons in front of her as an obstacle and God helps her overcome the most difficult times within a race .

I don't believe Heather (or the others you site) are "pitching" God; they are simply living their lives and stating what they believe. Whether you choose to listen or not is up to you.

I was speaking with Heather on Monday to put my taper together for IMOO. She was calling from the airport in Iowa where she just finished 2nd at Pigman. She's in the "triathlon business" too only when she waits for airplanes she chooses to do her job rather than posting boring drivel on a forum. Maybe that's why she wipes the floor with guys like me and you at events.

The other thing about Heather and the others you site is that when she is out speaking about God (or "pitching" God) she is out there as herself not hiding behind some alias. This opens her to critique from other people who can critique her by name while she states her beliefs. See this is called "courage". You may want to try it some time.

As to how I would feel about Faris is he sported an Allah bandana I would think he was a man of belief. Belief in God. In fact belief in the same God as I do. The God of Abraham. Now if Faris told me he wanted to cut my head off because some of our beliefs are different I would begin to think and act much differently............

Jeff May (see this is where you crawl out from behind the alias) "

Thomas

Do you really think I am trying to be anonymous. Clearly Scott knows who I am. So does James burke. I am sure we share many friends here in wisconsin.

You don't have to dig up posts from 10 years a go. At the beginning of this thread I told you I respected you and your contribution to this forum.

I just think in this case you are taking a real issue via WTC and making it all about yourself. And I think you are so wrapped up in crossing the line first on Sunday that you are missing how unprofessionally you are acting

You jumped into an amateur race at the last moment and crossed the line before every non-professional. Congratulations. You are the kick assiests triathlete who ever kicked ass.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [sentania] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sentania wrote:
I don't think any amateurs have gone faster than TG went on the day. Properly motivated, I do think that JB or DS could easily go that fast on IMWI at this point in time.

I am not questioning TG's abilities. I know that was faster than any ager time. I believe burke was 9:04.

In that case I was responding to someone who seemed to think no ager ever goes faster at the same race than a pro but I admit I may have read it wrong

There is no question that TG and BB are faster than the ager's in wisconsin. I have a great deal of respect for their abilities

I just no longer respect TG's choices or the way he has chosen to conduct himself over the last 24 hours. Including the real starky podcast he gave today

I really started here just trying to give him a different perspective from the ag ranks. Clearly I have failed as he doesn't get what I am saying. It happens

But now that he has "outed" me from my anonymous status I better proceed to scrub my hard drive etc. know any good IT guys...
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ironmayb wrote:

You jumped into an amateur race at the last moment and crossed the line before every non-professional.

I jump into a lot of races that are amateur races, I just don't see your point. I do this all the time as do nearly every pro I know. The difference is that some people seem to believe that Ironman is different, that it is special, and pros shouldn't race. And it wasn't about being anonymous, it was about standing up for myself - I think it takes some courage, maybe you do not. And this is applicable to this forum in general and is a reason why most pros don't bother. This is a valuable site to interact with people and maybe you think I am doing myself a disservice, and maybe I will lose some sponsorship, time will tell and I am willing to take a risk. I can assure you if I lose it all, I will keep going playing this game regardless of whether I am paid to do so or not.


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Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ironmayb wrote:
sentania wrote:
I don't think any amateurs have gone faster than TG went on the day. Properly motivated, I do think that JB or DS could easily go that fast on IMWI at this point in time.


I am not questioning TG's abilities. I know that was faster than any ager time. I believe burke was 9:04.

In that case I was responding to someone who seemed to think no ager ever goes faster at the same race than a pro but I admit I may have read it wrong

There is no question that TG and BB are faster than the ager's in wisconsin. I have a great deal of respect for their abilities

I just no longer respect TG's choices or the way he has chosen to conduct himself over the last 24 hours. Including the real starky podcast he gave today

I really started here just trying to give him a different perspective from the ag ranks. Clearly I have failed as he doesn't get what I am saying. It happens

But now that he has "outed" me from my anonymous status I better proceed to scrub my hard drive etc. know any good IT guys...

Again, I will say this. I think people forget that I did 10+ Ironmans as amateur and spent 6 years as an amateur. I was annihilated by the likes of Daniel Bretscher, Blake Becker,and David Thompson at local Midwest races. I had no problems with them showing up at those races so when you try to say you are showing me perspective I get it, I was an amateur for a long time - it wasn't instant success like many of my peers.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Tricoastal] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
X 2! Very ill advised. I hope Base made it right for him, because he severely devalued his small local brand by that act and many of these current postings. It's sad to me, as I like TG, but his ego seems to have won this battle to his detriment. It was a terribly self centered event that really took him a step back.


ironmayb wrote:
sentania wrote:
I don't think any amateurs have gone faster than TG went on the day. Properly motivated, I do think that JB or DS could easily go that fast on IMWI at this point in time.

I am not questioning TG's abilities. I know that was faster than any ager time. I believe burke was 9:04.

In that case I was responding to someone who seemed to think no ager ever goes faster at the same race than a pro but I admit I may have read it wrong

There is no question that TG and BB are faster than the ager's in wisconsin. I have a great deal of respect for their abilities

I just no longer respect TG's choices or the way he has chosen to conduct himself over the last 24 hours. Including the real starky podcast he gave today

I really started here just trying to give him a different perspective from the ag ranks. Clearly I have failed as he doesn't get what I am saying. It happens

But now that he has "outed" me from my anonymous status I better proceed to scrub my hard drive etc. know any good IT guys...
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [colinlaughery] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
He is the one making it personal, I'm not the one pissing on the Internet about not getting my ego stroked......it all about him not getting his back awesome end zone dance. Isn't it?
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Beachboy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I apologize if I am making it personal and if you think this is about an end-zone dance. It isn't - but I am going to leave it there and bow out of this thread as the stress levels created are affecting my ability to recover from the race and prepare for my next one. I am not the most talented athlete on the planet, but I will continue to work hard to achieve my own goals of some day winning an Ironman. Thank you for the comments and feedback and please say hi if you see me or my commuter around Tucson.


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Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: Sep 15, 15 22:33
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I was hoping to hear what happened at the awards ceremony. Did they actually give you the first place award? What happened to the age grouper who was originally to clear the champion?
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [wazzup] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ggeiger wrote:
X 2! Very ill advised. I hope Base made it right for him, because he severely devalued his small local brand by that act and many of these current postings. It's sad to me, as I like TG, but his ego seems to have won this battle to his detriment. It was a terribly self centered event that really took him a step back.


ironmayb wrote:
sentania wrote:
I don't think any amateurs have gone faster than TG went on the day. Properly motivated, I do think that JB or DS could easily go that fast on IMWI at this point in time.

I am not questioning TG's abilities. I know that was faster than any ager time. I believe burke was 9:04.

In that case I was responding to someone who seemed to think no ager ever goes faster at the same race than a pro but I admit I may have read it wrong

There is no question that TG and BB are faster than the ager's in wisconsin. I have a great deal of respect for their abilities

I just no longer respect TG's choices or the way he has chosen to conduct himself over the last 24 hours. Including the real starky podcast he gave today

I really started here just trying to give him a different perspective from the ag ranks. Clearly I have failed as he doesn't get what I am saying. It happens

But now that he has "outed" me from my anonymous status I better proceed to scrub my hard drive etc. know any good IT guys...

You and I see it the same way. He doesn't. It's unfortunate. On Sunday night I tried to intervene to give him that perspective. Don't feel like it ever got through

Sometimes there is more to life and triathlon than just the triathlon part
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [sentania] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sentania wrote:
I don't think any amateurs have gone faster than TG went on the day. Properly motivated, I do think that JB or DS could easily go that fast on IMWI at this point in time.

...and I'm not aware that DS recieved anything, no ceremony, no fanfair for winning Steelehead 70.3. Went sub 4 hours the day after racing AG nationals. Won by 10 minutes. In part because it was a wave start so you didn't know that he won. Some 25 year old male I suspect was the 1st across the line, but wasn't within 15 minutes of the eventual winner. No lead bike or motorcycle. That's find for AG racing, but doesn't work well racing for the overall win across multiple age groups. For this reason, I think non mass start races shouldn't recognize an overall winner and should be consistent about it. To make a TT start (rolling start) fair, you'd have to do random starting order... which might work better than people would expect. You would howerver need periodic leader board and some sort of accurate real time timing system.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
motoguy128 wrote:
You would howerver need periodic leader board and some sort of accurate real time timing system.

And that is no easy feat. Source: I do race timing on the side. I'm not nearly as competent as the guys timing IM type stuff, but I'm pretty capable timing road races and smaller local tris. Real time results would be extremely complicated given the amount of things that can throw results off.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ggeiger wrote:
X 2! Very ill advised. I hope Base made it right for him, because he severely devalued his small local brand by that act and many of these current postings. It's sad to me, as I like TG, but his ego seems to have won this battle to his detriment. It was a terribly self centered event that really took him a step back.


ironmayb wrote:
sentania wrote:
I don't think any amateurs have gone faster than TG went on the day. Properly motivated, I do think that JB or DS could easily go that fast on IMWI at this point in time.


I am not questioning TG's abilities. I know that was faster than any ager time. I believe burke was 9:04.

In that case I was responding to someone who seemed to think no ager ever goes faster at the same race than a pro but I admit I may have read it wrong

There is no question that TG and BB are faster than the ager's in wisconsin. I have a great deal of respect for their abilities

I just no longer respect TG's choices or the way he has chosen to conduct himself over the last 24 hours. Including the real starky podcast he gave today

I really started here just trying to give him a different perspective from the ag ranks. Clearly I have failed as he doesn't get what I am saying. It happens

But now that he has "outed" me from my anonymous status I better proceed to scrub my hard drive etc. know any good IT guys...

I will try to conclude my involvement in this thread on a positive note. The thread is about "removing pros from the race". I want to acknowledge some of the local pros around the race this weekend, who didn't need to be removed:

Blake Becker. I appreciate his input into this thread and his blog post re: the race. His contingent of athletes he coaches seems to grow every year. The signs of his athletes near picnic point was creative.

Jackie Hering(sp?): saw her all over the place this weekend. Most impressed at 7pm Sunday. I was heading home at Mile 23 and she was out past Camp Randall actively and individually inspiring one of her coached athletes. Definitely building her brand.

Paul Eicher and Will Smith working the Norma Tec booth and cheering on Mt. Horeb Hill

And as I mentioned earlier in this thread I saw Thomas Brunold assisting a biker with a mechanical within the first 10 miles of the bike ride. While it may have been close to the "outside assistance" line I don't care. I saw a freaked out participant get much needed help. I would like to believe it was a first timer (I bet it was) who was able to finish the race and has no idea they were helped by one of the best and most consistent AGer's at this race the last decade.

Clearly WTC has an issue they need to address on the Pro vs. AG nature of the races. In my view it will now need to be dealt with much like the finish line crossing with family/friends issue and for many of the same reasons.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Maybe this was previously posted, but according to madison.com this morning, WTC has officially declared Rudy the winner.

http://host.madison.com/...5e-d7831821b22a.html
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This is comical. I can't imagine anyone having the time to post 10 pages of comments on ST because he wants to be called an Ironman champ. If you're a pro earn it against other pros, the same way all the other pro IM champs earned it. If you want to be an Ironman champ as an amateur, drop your license! Are you doing this because of your ego or because you want sponsors to recognize you as an IM Champ? Crazy
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [highflyer] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
highflyer wrote:
Maybe this was previously posted, but according to madison.com this morning, WTC has officially declared Rudy the winner.

http://host.madison.com/...5e-d7831821b22a.html
\[/url]
The funniest part of the article was where it stated that Gerlach crossed the line first but he knew that he was not the winner!

What a riot.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [davearm] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
davearm wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
The rules my be muddled but I think the intent WTC has with these races has been clear since they were announced.


I think WTC's intent was to consolidate more Pro talent at a select few races, versus having the Pro talent diluted at many races.

I don't necessarily agree that there was an intent to have only amateurs at the events without a Pro race.

If that was indeed the intent, then TG should have been turned away on Friday.

x2
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [highflyer] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
highflyer wrote:
Maybe this was previously posted, but according to madison.com this morning, WTC has officially declared Rudy the winner.

http://host.madison.com/...5e-d7831821b22a.html

The real story here is that the women's overall winner is a mother of 5 teenage boys! What? The face she has time to train for an IM is pretty amazing. As a father of 3, I personally feel like HIM is my limit at the moment.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Could you sound any more jealous of TG's Ironman win?....WTC, Rielly, blew this one and did not treat TG as the overall winner he is. They did not follow their OWN rules. I would be embarrassed if I did not have my shit together any better than this.....

If you want to win a race....race!.....and let you results talk. Reading your post you come off as bitter and resentful of TG for winning.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Steve-oH! wrote:
Could you sound any more jealous of TG's Ironman win?....WTC, Rielly, blew this one and did not treat TG as the overall winner he is. They did not follow their OWN rules. I would be embarrassed if I did not have my shit together any better than this.....

If you want to win a race....race!.....and let you results talk. Reading your post you come off as bitter and resentful of TG for winning.

yes you have it completely right. I am bitter and resentful that TG won. I have it out for TG. I wasn't at all trying to help TG see that he was making a horses ass of himself.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ironmayb wrote:
Clearly WTC has an issue they need to address on the Pro vs. AG nature of the races. In my view it will now need to be dealt with much like the finish line crossing with family/friends issue and for many of the same reasons.

I don't think that's "clearly" the issue at all. As illustrated up the thread by Colin, WTC's rules for Pros in events without a Pro purse are quite clear.

Seems to me the issue here is that someone on-site took matters into their own hands on Sunday, and made a call to void two racers' results that was inconsistent with WTC's rules.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [davearm] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
davearm wrote:
ironmayb wrote:

Clearly WTC has an issue they need to address on the Pro vs. AG nature of the races. In my view it will now need to be dealt with much like the finish line crossing with family/friends issue and for many of the same reasons.


I don't think that's "clearly" the issue at all. As illustrated up the thread by Colin, WTC's rules for Pros in events without a Pro purse are quite clear.

Seems to me the issue here is that someone on-site took matters into their own hands on Sunday, and made a call to void two racers' results that was inconsistent with WTC's rules.

fair enough
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [davearm] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
davearm wrote:
ironmayb wrote:

Clearly WTC has an issue they need to address on the Pro vs. AG nature of the races. In my view it will now need to be dealt with much like the finish line crossing with family/friends issue and for many of the same reasons.


I don't think that's "clearly" the issue at all. As illustrated up the thread by Colin, WTC's rules for Pros in events without a Pro purse are quite clear.

Seems to me the issue here is that someone on-site took matters into their own hands on Sunday, and made a call to void two racers' results that was inconsistent with WTC's rules.

And then the athlete took it to social media for debate.
I thought WTC had published guidelines on how the pros would handle these situations outside of social media.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
the stress levels created are affecting my ability to recover from the race and prepare for my next one

Don't become an AGer then ;-)

29 years and counting
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Jorgan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jorgan wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
the stress levels created are affecting my ability to recover from the race and prepare for my next one


Don't become an AGer then ;-)

I don't think Thomas has tried the, 7:30-5:30PM job, wife, 1-2 kids all the while trying and be an elite amateur experience. I think this what frustrates some about the "use vs. them" part of the argument. The full time athlete vs. part time athlete. When the 2 worlds collide when it's unexpected, you have some animosity.

I ultimately throw this back and Ironman for not anticipating these issues and failing to create clear expectations for their professionals. As the have a reduced entry fee, Ironman is fully without their rights and should be expected to create very clear guidelines for professional participation in their events.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ironmayb wrote:
ggeiger wrote:
X 2! Very ill advised. I hope Base made it right for him, because he severely devalued his small local brand by that act and many of these current postings. It's sad to me, as I like TG, but his ego seems to have won this battle to his detriment. It was a terribly self centered event that really took him a step back.


ironmayb wrote:
sentania wrote:
I don't think any amateurs have gone faster than TG went on the day. Properly motivated, I do think that JB or DS could easily go that fast on IMWI at this point in time.


I am not questioning TG's abilities. I know that was faster than any ager time. I believe burke was 9:04.

In that case I was responding to someone who seemed to think no ager ever goes faster at the same race than a pro but I admit I may have read it wrong

There is no question that TG and BB are faster than the ager's in wisconsin. I have a great deal of respect for their abilities

I just no longer respect TG's choices or the way he has chosen to conduct himself over the last 24 hours. Including the real starky podcast he gave today

I really started here just trying to give him a different perspective from the ag ranks. Clearly I have failed as he doesn't get what I am saying. It happens

But now that he has "outed" me from my anonymous status I better proceed to scrub my hard drive etc. know any good IT guys...


I will try to conclude my involvement in this thread on a positive note. The thread is about "removing pros from the race". I want to acknowledge some of the local pros around the race this weekend, who didn't need to be removed:

Blake Becker. I appreciate his input into this thread and his blog post re: the race. His contingent of athletes he coaches seems to grow every year. The signs of his athletes near picnic point was creative.

Jackie Hering(sp?): saw her all over the place this weekend. Most impressed at 7pm Sunday. I was heading home at Mile 23 and she was out past Camp Randall actively and individually inspiring one of her coached athletes. Definitely building her brand.

Paul Eicher and Will Smith working the Norma Tec booth and cheering on Mt. Horeb Hill

And as I mentioned earlier in this thread I saw Thomas Brunold assisting a biker with a mechanical within the first 10 miles of the bike ride. While it may have been close to the "outside assistance" line I don't care. I saw a freaked out participant get much needed help. I would like to believe it was a first timer (I bet it was) who was able to finish the race and has no idea they were helped by one of the best and most consistent AGer's at this race the last decade.

Clearly WTC has an issue they need to address on the Pro vs. AG nature of the races. In my view it will now need to be dealt with much like the finish line crossing with family/friends issue and for many of the same reasons.

And as unfortunate as it was to see this race no longer support a professional field (at least for this year). It was great to see each of them on course giving back to their athletes all day, the community, and supporting the race. They all did a great job with what they could do not just for their athletes but everyone else as well. As hard as it was for some of them to not be able to do this race in the capacity they wanted to do, i know it was a bit bittersweet.

This is one of the downsides of a pro/elite athlete, your hometown local race, the one that many have done for several years, and in BB's case every year since it has come to town, that everyone comes out for has stripped away your division.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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You are right, I tried the on-call medical device rep job. The one that never sleeps, the one that gets up at 4:30am to drive to a hospital 90 miles away to check a patient in the morning at 5:30am. Then makes rounds with doctors, goes to clinic to see patients while his phone is buzzing that he has to be in surgery in 10 minutes in a city 75 miles away. He is the last one notified of the surgery but the first one expected to be there. After scrambling to find some one to come cover his patients in the clinic he drives dangerously fast to get to the case because he has the product. After the case he has lunch with the doctor for a few minutes before heading to another case, then back to clinic to finish up, before heading to another city another 75 miles away to take a different doctor to dinner. Dinner starts late because that doctor was doing a case as well that went late. At dinner, you get a page that a patient 120 miles away needs to be checked right away so you orchestrate one of your peers to go. Afterwards you go out on the town with the doctor. By the time you get home it is 2:30am. You go for a 50min run, you take a shower, and are in bed by 3:45am. Your alarm is set for 4:30. Groundhound day all over again.

I can assure you unlike many of my peers, I don't come from a SBR background. I worked insanely hard at my job so please don't try to assume that you know how my life is. The grass is always greener on the other side.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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But he said 7:30-5 job and kids, Your job was much different then that and you don't have kids...... ;)

I know you have a thick skin and this will all brush aside. You did bring an important hole in WTC's system to light and hopefully this helps get more consistency with WTC and their language, and maybe being back the pro division in Madison in full again, I know many others would appreciate it.

Have you talked to Rapp about this yet?

777!
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
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ironmayb wrote:
Keep digging Thomas you are doing a fantastic job for yourself and your sponsors

Actually, you sound like the whiniest bitch I have ever seen in my life. You should be racing Female Age group for sure.

And for the record, NO ONE who has posted in this thread comes off as a bigger ass than you!
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [TrekGeek] [ In reply to ]
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TrekGeek wrote:
ironmayb wrote:
Keep digging Thomas you are doing a fantastic job for yourself and your sponsors


Actually, you sound like the whiniest bitch I have ever seen in my life. You should be racing Female Age group for sure.

And for the record, NO ONE who has posted in this thread comes off as a bigger ass than you!

thanks. I appreciate it. Do I get sign a banner and give a speech.......
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
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No, you're not a positive person. You are all about you. Not the kind of speech anyone wants to hear.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [TrekGeek] [ In reply to ]
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TrekGeek wrote:
No, you're not a positive person. You are all about you. Not the kind of speech anyone wants to hear.

Wow I hope my sponsors don't see it the way you do. That would be bad for my professional triathlon career.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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Kathy,

You are absolutely right. I will add, I do think triathlon is unique and when I got to start Kona 2010 as an amateur I was stoked to race the pros on the same day on the same course. In 2013 when I went back and I was a pro and I got to line up with my own idols in the same wave - it was a dream come true. I have always enjoyed interacting with people on site at races much to my own detriment. And I do so on here as well. I really do believe that putting yourself out there is good mental training.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
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IF you have any, you shouldn't. You definitely haven't acted like one in this thread. I don't see any other Pro's throwing a fit like you either. THAT should tell you something.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [TrekGeek] [ In reply to ]
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TrekGeek wrote:
IF you have any, you shouldn't. You definitely haven't acted like one in this thread. I don't see any other Pro's throwing a fit like you either. THAT should tell you something.

I've only seen one PRO throw a fit recently
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
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Look in the mirror.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [TrekGeek] [ In reply to ]
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While I totally agree that ironmayb sounds like the whiniest bitch ever, please don't send him over to the female AGs. We enjoy our relatively whiny bitch-free age groups ;)

http://trainingwheelsrequired.wordpress.com
@KellyNCollier
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [KellyNCollier] [ In reply to ]
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KellyNCollier wrote:
While I totally agree that ironmayb sounds like the whiniest bitch ever, please don't send him over to the female AGs. We enjoy our relatively whiny bitch-free age groups ;)

my apologies to you and everyone for being the whiniest bitch ever. I will quit now.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [KellyNCollier] [ In reply to ]
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He would just get shunned anyway. :-) Notice I said the whiniest "ever?" So you all wouldn't put up with him either. ;-)
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas - been a twitter follower for a while and I guess you could say "fan" as well (as much as you can be a fan in a sport with very little media attention or actual race coverage) and may not completely agree with all your motives but as this thread spirals out of control with a lot false information I wanted to chime in with support. At this point it seems fruitless to address the detractors so just wanted to wish you luck in the future.

I think the only mistake you made was not realizing where this thread would eventually wind up, you've been here long enough!
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, Jeff May!
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [TrekGeek] [ In reply to ]
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TrekGeek wrote:
Thanks, Jeff May!

you are welcome LMBT_40-44 / Tri_Geek40-44 / TrekGeek
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [TrekGeek] [ In reply to ]
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TrekGeek wrote:
Look in the mirror.

Looking in the mirror in an Ironman thread will get you DQed.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Tom. No matter what weirdness has transpired over this, you are always going to be up there with Crowies, Wellingtons, Scotts, and Allens to my stepkids. I think I might have told you this before but when they saw your homemade packing tape disc cover (was it 4 years ago?), they thought you were awesome. If we aren't racing ourselves we work the run station by the bike path and the kids are always enthusiastic when you come through. I know it wasn't your intention, but you set a good example that day by being frugal and innovative and showing you don't have to spend big bucks on equipment to be fast.
Last edited by: nickwisconsin: Sep 16, 15 11:22
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
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ironmayb wrote:
KellyNCollier wrote:
While I totally agree that ironmayb sounds like the whiniest bitch ever, please don't send him over to the female AGs. We enjoy our relatively whiny bitch-free age groups ;)


my apologies to you and everyone for being the whiniest bitch ever. I will quit now.


I actually think you are trying to be reasonable. You make valid arguments.

I also think - in classic ST fashion - this has erupted a thread that is a much bigger deal with a small group of people in the thread... than it is/will be in real life.

How many Pros are really going to waste their time to "win" an AG race? Very very few in my opinion. There's very little return for them to do. Certainly any pros who are actually winning or placing in pro fields (no offense Thomas). Can't see a mad rush of low-level Pros trying to win AG fields. Who wants to burn matches like that for something that is clearly not a true professional win? Or God forbid... maybe they don't win... you want to talk about damaging your pro brand.

I would have to think this is a one-off for Thomas (sorry, don't know Thomas, making an assumption here). Why would he possibly come back...to beat another AG field?
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Dan Funk] [ In reply to ]
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Dan Funk wrote:
ironmayb wrote:
KellyNCollier wrote:
While I totally agree that ironmayb sounds like the whiniest bitch ever, please don't send him over to the female AGs. We enjoy our relatively whiny bitch-free age groups ;)


my apologies to you and everyone for being the whiniest bitch ever. I will quit now.
.

I also think - in classic ST fashion - this has erupted a thread that is a much bigger deal with a small group of people in the thread... than it is/will be in real life.

quote]

I agree but must admit I am guilty of erupting as part of that group and therefore taking focus off the subject. Why I started here and where this has gone are two different places, in part because of me.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [nickwisconsin] [ In reply to ]
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nickwisconsin wrote:
Tom. No matter what weirdness has transpired over this, you are always going to be up there with Crowies, Wellingtons, Scotts, and Allens to my stepkids. I think I might have told you this before but when they saw your homemade packing tape disc cover (was it 4 years ago?), they thought you were awesome. If we aren't racing ourselves we work the run station by the bike path and the kids are always enthusiastic when you come through. I know it wasn't your intention, but you set a good example that day by being frugal and innovative and showing you don't have to spend big bucks on equipment to be fast.

Thanks you those words mean a lot to me :)


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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A couple of quick thoughts:

TG your contribution to the forum is always awesome, it's great to have a PRO on here to give feedback/talk shop etc, much respect to you because like you said most PRO's can't take heat of this forum.

With that said not sure your "beef" you entered a Non-Pro Ironman Race, your a Pro you won the race which mainly consisted of AGer's and you didn't get the attention or the award that you feel you deserved? This just seems odd to me, like you did this in protest or somthing...

Anyways....move on to the next race good luck
Last edited by: Run For Money: Sep 16, 15 15:26
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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I think you didn nothing wrong or cheap and deserve the OA win despite the caterwauling otherwise. I also think you should go AG asap and take a Kona and 70.3 championship spot from some of that whiners.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [npage148] [ In reply to ]
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I may be mistaken, but i don't believe any of the people TG would be "racing" for a slot have ill will against TG.

I think what Thomas did was fine, provided if i had strolled into the expo I would have been able to secure an entry. That is on WTC, not TG. Even if I couldn't have signed up, I can't blame TG for utilizing his "privilege".

I do think WTC screwed the pooch when handling TG and Rudy's results.

I do think TG should have expected this thread to go the way it did.

I do think WTC can handle this type of situation better next time.

If i were a pro, i may feel differently about the situation.

I still want to race both TG and BB, along with James and Dan and merely get beat instead of destroyed.
Last edited by: sentania: Sep 17, 15 5:55
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
I may be mistaken, but i don't believe any of the people TG would be "racing" for a slot have ill will against TG.

I think what Thomas did was fine, provided if i had strolled into the expo I would have been able to secure an entry. That is on WTC, not TG. Even if I couldn't have signed up, I can't blame TG for utilizing his "privilege".

I do think WTC screwed the pooch when handling TG and Rudy's results.

I do think TG should have expected this thread to go the way it did.

I do think WTC can handle this type of situation better next time.

If i were a pro, i may feel differently about the situation.

I still want to race both TG and BB, along with James and Dan and merely get beat instead of destroyed.

Scott, very late to this thread, but I think it is perfectly fine if a pro shows up at any local tri, run, bike etc etc race and races under the same rules as age groupers and wins.

I actually find it ridiculous that top tier age groupers are running around claiming overall IM wins when better athletes are kind of "dissuaded from racing". If a pro like Thomas says, "fine I don't care about prize money, I want a race win, then more power to him".


AND I think it is perfectly OK if he uses goodwill he developed with people at WTC to gain late entry to a sold out race. That's a private thing between him and WTC for his "service" to the brand which arguably very little age groupers have done.

I would much rather see pros taking race wins at no prize money races than age groupers largely because age groupers end up over representing the "win" and I'd rather see that title go to a pro even if he/she chooses to race for no prize money.

On a related topic, we see a bit of the same by many sub 40 year old age groupers claiming titles in their age groups when we know that Frodo and Kienle are also in the same age group and are the real best...once you get over 40 (and even then you have guys like Crowie and Cam Brown) all the best are in the age group anyway. Anyway, a bit of a tangent, but it could be interesting if they nuked all age groups under 40 and have an open category that had say 250 men/150 women at Kona and then start the age groups above 40 only. But then the KPR woulld get complicated for those holding down full time jobs (of course many pros do also), but academically speaking there is merit in such a discussion. Once you get above 40 all the best are in the age group, not segregated away over in the pro division.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure what you are commenting on related to my comments.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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does that surprise you?



---------------------------------------
Fruit snacks are for winners
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [nickwisconsin] [ In reply to ]
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nickwisconsin wrote:
Tom. No matter what weirdness has transpired over this, you are always going to be up there with Crowies, Wellingtons, Scotts, and Allens to my stepkids. I think I might have told you this before but when they saw your homemade packing tape disc cover (was it 4 years ago?), they thought you were awesome. If we aren't racing ourselves we work the run station by the bike path and the kids are always enthusiastic when you come through. I know it wasn't your intention, but you set a good example that day by being frugal and innovative and showing you don't have to spend big bucks on equipment to be fast.

i totally fucked up my post on edit but thankfully thomas saw it first. i agree wholeheartedly. what a funny thread. :)

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
I'm not sure what you are commenting on related to my comments.

The two main points that I was really trying to bring up is that Thomas should be able to race in any race. If there is no prize money he just races age group rules, even though he can't get age group prizes (like Kona slots). The second point was related to access to the sold out race. Thomas brings more value to sold out race than most fast age groupers and since he's participated in the WTC Pro races offering up a form of unpaid labour, he probably earned a privilege with WTC that the fast age grouper never did.

On days he does not get prize money, he earns nothing, but has helped WTC put on a show.....you need to have a variety of pros from the fastest to the next tier to have a proper pro race. When guys finish out of the prize money, they basically offered themselves up as cannon fodder for the top guys to beat and that's part of WTC's show. So if they cut him a favour and let him enter the local race at the last moment, so be it. He's earned that, whereas most age groupers have not generally helped WTC to the same degree.

The others items are a bit unrelated to Thomas racing, but more relevant to the pro vs age group distinction. My 2 cents is under 40 it should just be a large open race since there is no real appreciable physiological decline before then and many pros have families and full time jobs too. But that would not work with the WTC model with KPR series based qual vs 1 race qual for age groupers.

Anyway I support Thomas. Age groupers wanting to break the tape first is an artificial accolade since WTC has dissuaded pros from entering races by removing prize money. But if a pro wants zero prize money and wants to break the tape first and kicks the butt of age groupers searching for the same glory, then tough luck for the age groupers....better train harder or blame parents for not good enough genetics.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
The second point was related to access to the sold out race. Thomas brings more value to sold out race than most fast age groupers and since he's participated in the WTC Pro races offering up a form of unpaid labour, he probably earned a privilege with WTC that the fast age grouper never did.

That may be true, but the rules someone posted earlier in the thread state that pros entering non-pro races must enter through general entry. Thomas didn't do that. I got sick two days before IMWI and had a horrible day. I'd love to go down to Louisville and give it another shot. I'm pretty sure I'd get laughed at if I strolled up to the expo the Friday before the race trying to register.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
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Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
The second point was related to access to the sold out race. Thomas brings more value to sold out race than most fast age groupers and since he's participated in the WTC Pro races offering up a form of unpaid labour, he probably earned a privilege with WTC that the fast age grouper never did.


That may be true, but the rules someone posted earlier in the thread state that pros entering non-pro races must enter through general entry. Thomas didn't do that. I got sick two days before IMWI and had a horrible day. I'd love to go down to Louisville and give it another shot. I'm pretty sure I'd get laughed at if I strolled up to the expo the Friday before the race trying to register.

+1 If you want to race with AG, you need to play by all the age group rules, including registering a year in advance. Special favors = not a level playing field.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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deh20 wrote:
Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
The second point was related to access to the sold out race. Thomas brings more value to sold out race than most fast age groupers and since he's participated in the WTC Pro races offering up a form of unpaid labour, he probably earned a privilege with WTC that the fast age grouper never did.


That may be true, but the rules someone posted earlier in the thread state that pros entering non-pro races must enter through general entry. Thomas didn't do that. I got sick two days before IMWI and had a horrible day. I'd love to go down to Louisville and give it another shot. I'm pretty sure I'd get laughed at if I strolled up to the expo the Friday before the race trying to register.


+1 If you want to race with AG, you need to play by all the age group rules, including registering a year in advance. Special favors = not a level playing field.

This has nothing to do with him being a pro. I know a couple AG guys that are able to show up to an IM weekend of and sign up for it. This sport has a small community and it's not that uncommon.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [habbywall] [ In reply to ]
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I need better friends, or perhaps I just need to leverage the friends I have better.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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What is the new Triathlon Pro Union's stance on this? If you are a 3rd tier pro and not making money to speak of, why not just go race the age group only Ironman races and be the winner?....Then stick that on your resume?

I've really got no opinion on it to speak of, but I am curious as the general opinion of the the fellow pros at a time when a new pro union is trying to gather momentum. Was that addressed here somewhere and I missed it?
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
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Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
The second point was related to access to the sold out race. Thomas brings more value to sold out race than most fast age groupers and since he's participated in the WTC Pro races offering up a form of unpaid labour, he probably earned a privilege with WTC that the fast age grouper never did.


That may be true, but the rules someone posted earlier in the thread state that pros entering non-pro races must enter through general entry. Thomas didn't do that. I got sick two days before IMWI and had a horrible day. I'd love to go down to Louisville and give it another shot. I'm pretty sure I'd get laughed at if I strolled up to the expo the Friday before the race trying to register.


I local AG'er did that last year in Louisville.

It's not because TG is a pro, its because he knows A LOT of people and he is very visible. Same goes for many AG'ers.
Last edited by: bcagle25: Sep 18, 15 7:30
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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deh20 wrote:
Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
The second point was related to access to the sold out race. Thomas brings more value to sold out race than most fast age groupers and since he's participated in the WTC Pro races offering up a form of unpaid labour, he probably earned a privilege with WTC that the fast age grouper never did.


That may be true, but the rules someone posted earlier in the thread state that pros entering non-pro races must enter through general entry. Thomas didn't do that. I got sick two days before IMWI and had a horrible day. I'd love to go down to Louisville and give it another shot. I'm pretty sure I'd get laughed at if I strolled up to the expo the Friday before the race trying to register.


+1 If you want to race with AG, you need to play by all the age group rules, including registering a year in advance. Special favors = not a level playing field.

Yawn... This pettiness bores me.

Sponsors, donors, patrons, friends, all have special advantages in the sports and entertainment world. The folks that fund the sport/entertainment have EARNED/PAYED FOR these advantages. You might feel butt hurt, but you really need to get over it.

You guys are't some of those "occupy wallstreet" types, are you?

Get over yourselves and find some better friends!

Congrats to Tom for the win, and for having friends! He is a fast and smart guy.

Austin Hardy -

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [bcagle25] [ In reply to ]
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bcagle25 wrote:
Supersquid wrote:
Quote:
The second point was related to access to the sold out race. Thomas brings more value to sold out race than most fast age groupers and since he's participated in the WTC Pro races offering up a form of unpaid labour, he probably earned a privilege with WTC that the fast age grouper never did.


That may be true, but the rules someone posted earlier in the thread state that pros entering non-pro races must enter through general entry. Thomas didn't do that. I got sick two days before IMWI and had a horrible day. I'd love to go down to Louisville and give it another shot. I'm pretty sure I'd get laughed at if I strolled up to the expo the Friday before the race trying to register.


I local AG'er did that last year in Louisville.

It's not because TG is a pro, its because he knows A LOT of people and he is very visible. Same goes for many AG'ers.

Louisville did not sell out last year.....I doubt a local AG'er could have walked up to the desk at Madison and register on the spot.

I don't begrudge TG for racing Madison and think the blame for the "controversy" rests solely on WTC's shoulders for their ham-fisted policies and inconsistencies. But comparing an on-site registration for IMLOU to IMWI is apples & oranges.

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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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Let's be honest, I don't really want to talk about myself and I am choosing to respond to you specifically Scott because you know me a little bit better than most on here. I realize that some pros are friendly, maybe you see me as similar to them, but I can say this. The reason pro porta-potties exists is in part because I kept harassing the operations guys about it. By harassing I mean kindly bringing it up everytime and at every race. At IMMT 70.3 and IMMT I talked to the VP of operations for a good couple of hours each trip about things and what my next goal is to crusade for pros - it was for better parking at that race if you new with some of the issues the pros faced. Do my fellow peers do this, well the ones I interact with at the races don't. Maybe someone else does that at a race I am not at, but I have spent a lot of time lobbying on issues that both benefit my peers and move pros forward. I have been told that pro potties is now written into the standard operating procedures for Ironman events. I don't think that would have happened if it wasn't for constant reinforcement - it may seem petty but sometimes that is what it takes.

To contrast this, I was at a Challenge race this year and I asked if we could have pro potties and I was laughed at by one of the old REV3 contenders. It seems that he had never raced Ironman events and was unaccustomed to some of the nicer things we now have at Ironman races. It is the old approach that if you never ask you will never receive. I work hard at both triathlon and on improving this sport in general. With that being said, although I got in last minute, I didn't do so by a channel that wasn't available to anyone else - including you. It just so happens that many of the poo-poers on here didn't realize that those channels exist. That is not my fault.


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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Let's be honest, I don't really want to talk about myself and I am choosing to respond to you specifically Scott because you know me a little bit better than most on here. I realize that some pros are friendly, maybe you see me as similar to them, but I can say this. The reason pro porta-potties exists is in part because I kept harassing the operations guys about it. By harassing I mean kindly bringing it up everytime and at every race. At IMMT 70.3 and IMMT I talked to the VP of operations for a good couple of hours each trip about things and what my next goal is to crusade for pros - it was for better parking at that race if you new with some of the issues the pros faced. Do my fellow peers do this, well the ones I interact with at the races don't. Maybe someone else does that at a race I am not at, but I have spent a lot of time lobbying on issues that both benefit my peers and move pros forward. I have been told that pro potties is now written into the standard operating procedures for Ironman events. I don't think that would have happened if it wasn't for constant reinforcement - it may seem petty but sometimes that is what it takes.

To contrast this, I was at a Challenge race this year and I asked if we could have pro potties and I was laughed at by one of the old REV3 contenders. It seems that he had never raced Ironman events and was unaccustomed to some of the nicer things we now have at Ironman races. It is the old approach that if you never ask you will never receive. I work hard at both triathlon and on improving this sport in general. With that being said, although I got in last minute, I didn't do so by a channel that wasn't available to anyone else - including you. It just so happens that many of the poo-poers on here didn't realize that those channels exist. That is not my fault.

I really think this needs to be emphasized. I think it is one big misconception rubbing a lot of people the wrong way.

My guess is there aren't too many people that decide on a whim they want to race an IM two days later so most people haven't explored this option.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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There are no keys to the Executive Washrooms in transition, so I presume some volunteer gets the title of "Pro porta-potty attendant" for an hour or two?
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [Peanut] [ In reply to ]
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They are generally right next to the pro bike racks, which at some races is a seperate area from the AG racks.

They also have clear signage.
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Re: Ironman Wisconsin - Removing Pros From The Race? [biglazybum] [ In reply to ]
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biglazybum wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Let's be honest, I don't really want to talk about myself and I am choosing to respond to you specifically Scott because you know me a little bit better than most on here. I realize that some pros are friendly, maybe you see me as similar to them, but I can say this. The reason pro porta-potties exists is in part because I kept harassing the operations guys about it. By harassing I mean kindly bringing it up everytime and at every race. At IMMT 70.3 and IMMT I talked to the VP of operations for a good couple of hours each trip about things and what my next goal is to crusade for pros - it was for better parking at that race if you new with some of the issues the pros faced. Do my fellow peers do this, well the ones I interact with at the races don't. Maybe someone else does that at a race I am not at, but I have spent a lot of time lobbying on issues that both benefit my peers and move pros forward. I have been told that pro potties is now written into the standard operating procedures for Ironman events. I don't think that would have happened if it wasn't for constant reinforcement - it may seem petty but sometimes that is what it takes.

To contrast this, I was at a Challenge race this year and I asked if we could have pro potties and I was laughed at by one of the old REV3 contenders. It seems that he had never raced Ironman events and was unaccustomed to some of the nicer things we now have at Ironman races. It is the old approach that if you never ask you will never receive. I work hard at both triathlon and on improving this sport in general. With that being said, although I got in last minute, I didn't do so by a channel that wasn't available to anyone else - including you. It just so happens that many of the poo-poers on here didn't realize that those channels exist. That is not my fault.


I really think this needs to be emphasized. I think it is one big misconception rubbing a lot of people the wrong way.

My guess is there aren't too many people that decide on a whim they want to race an IM two days later so most people haven't explored this option.

Agreed, most people don't just hop into an Ironman last minute although I know a few that have. I remember Mac Macneary doing way back in the day, he didn't train nor did he have any residual fitness. Can't remember the end result.


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