They're great.

They are good.

Same experiences most the time. Treat everyone they don't know personally like they know nothing.

Also, it's sad when I ask about a pretty typical part on a bike they have in stock and they look at me like I'm talking in russian.

Majority of bike shops cater to the recreational crowd. It's tough to find a shop that has a racer or more advanced rider.

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_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

nah it is easy.
look at the yelp reviews
go to the shops with the worst yelp reviews

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Second comment....Triathlon Lab!! It's hilarious. I commented on this when Dan made the "top triathlon stores" list. They might stock tri gear but they don't know what it is.

As for bike sizing.. yes, same EXACT story everywhere I go. I think most stores only know what a 90mm stem is.

Oh and because I do long course tri, the bike will be too low for me.... love that one

I'm in colorado so we have some great ones. Although I called one store and they said they don't like to sell P5s because they have too many problems..... Uh huh

The right bike for you is the one that is in stock right now!

Though if 4 out of 4 told you the same thing, maybe you really ARE off-base in your research, or maybe you missed something.

I guess my local shops are OK, though there is one that I visited two years apart where I thought the guy was jerking me around. I brought in my softride solo to have the headset redone, a winter of sweating into it had totally roached it. while there the mechanic told me I might not want to spend that much money on a bike that old. Admittedly, the softride solo is an old bike, but I think a lot of folks might consider it a classic.

Then, about 2 years later I am there with a titanflex, similar thing; this time I think I was asking about building a powertap wheel. Same guy tells me I might not want to spend that kind of money on a bike that old. It was less than a year old titanflex.

I was confused more than anything, I thought I was in the twilight zone. I literally had not set foot in the shop in two years and he told me the exact same thing about a totally different bike. Strange.

Every bike is too old if it isn't the current model!

A lot of shops don't cater to racers because it's tough to make money with that as your core business. The freds and commuters are where it is at for making money.

Where do you live and how far did you have to go to find the same bike at 4 different places? I'd have to go beyond what I consider LBS to do the same. I could do 2 for most popular brands but that's about it.

I actually have 2 high end bike stores around me but I haven't purchased a brand new bike locally since 2009. Those two shops will measure you and calculate the right bike.

Come to think of it, there is another smaller high end shop around but I really don't know how they stay in business with their limited sales.

I recommend those shops to friends and they've bought many bikes.

Most bikes shops I have gone to do this also.. even for some of the ones that sell tri bikes ;( Standover height on a tri bike fitting, awesome.

Where are you situated?

Here in Toronto area we seem to be blessed with several great shops including some dedicated to Triathletes and /or Road Racers.

I laughed because it is true.

I was working at shops pre yelp but the one I did work at we had 2 locations. One was in an affluent town on a main highway in front of a mall, we moved 200-300 buck mountain bikes all day long and put skinny slick tires on them because people wanted the look but never go off road. Our other store had half the staff because they didn't move the volume but catered to more high end custom builds. We'd get people in all the time that didn't realize we were the same shop complaining that the smaller store was rude to them stuff like that. Wasn't right necessarily but they just weren't used to dealing with give me the cheapest you have crowd.

Did you consider the possibility that your "research' was wrong? Maybe you, in fact, do need a larger frame.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

In my experience the guys that know the most are generally in the basement working on bikes not at point of sale. Which is unfortunate. The best shops realize this and make sure that they have educated people in front. Unfortunately, bike shops don't pay enough to expect too much knowledge off of the kids that are the only ones who can afford to work there. Most bike store employees blow most of their money on bike parts. Totally not speaking from experience here. :>

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NCCP certified Comp coach

Good point. It's the people that buy the P5s that are the problem.

worthless, the are nice, and when i need to buy a tool in a pinch they usually have it, way overprice. when i first got into Tri's i took my bike there twice, both times they convinced me to replace instead of repair and they parts they put on were never on right.

I see what you did there!!!!

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

This. Our little business has a product on every bike shop in town, so I know them very well. Not a single one knows what stack or reach is. What I hear most often (and they're talking to me as a supplier, not a customer) is, "We can make any bike fit any body." And yes, they start off by asking folks' inseam and pick a bike that they can easily stand over. That's about it..

let me make this easy for you. do you know what your fit coordinates are? and by fit coordinates, specifically i want to know the following:

saddle height: BB to saddle top, midway between tip and tail
saddle type: standard saddle or split rail?
nose to hood trough: nose of the saddle, just a straight shot to the low point of the hood, right before the upturn in the hood. make sure the front wheel's straight.
saddle top to handlebar top, just the elevation, the vertical drop, to the top of the 31.8mm section, right next to the handlebar clamp.

tell me also your:

overall height
wingspan (fingertip to fingertip, vitruvian man style).

finally, are you confident that these fit coordinates are what you want on your road bike? are you going to buy the bike and transfer or emulate these fit coordinates? i ask because i'll faithfully find your your bike(s). i just want to make sure i don't precisely identify your perfect bike, perfect being a precise solution to your shitty position. you are confident in your position, yes?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

WINNER!

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Good if I'm speaking to the owner. Terrible if I'm speaking to their weekend staff

okay, so, does anyone else want to play? those questions i asked the OP, if any of you want to know what road bike(s) are perfect for you, you just need to answer these questions:

go out to your existing road race bike and measure:

saddle height: BB to saddle top, midway between tip and tail
saddle setback: vertical distance from the saddle nose to the BB.
saddle type: standard saddle or split rail?
nose to hood trough: nose of the saddle, just a straight shot to the low point of the hood, right before the upturn in the hood. make sure the front wheel's straight.
saddle top to handlebar top, just the elevation, the vertical drop, to the top of the 31.8mm section, right next to the handlebar clamp.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Went to a shop in Scottsdale last week and the road bike "guru" didn't know the different between the BMC TMR01 and 02, of which they had the TMR02 on the floor.

I have two bike shops in my immediate area. They're average at best.

One carries Specialized and Trek, but refuses to order any high level bike for fear of losing money. They hesitate with Ultegra level, and typically order 105 level at best. Oddly enough, they carry the Specialized mountain range too and have no problems getting a top notch stumpy or enduro.

The other one carries Raleigh and Giant. I'm partial to them as this is where my father got me my first road bike when I was 10. They also hesitate with ordering high level bikes.

Anytime I need anything other than tubes, tires, etc, I go to one of three other shops, each 45min-1hr away. Worth the drive, both are awesome and know what they're talking about.

Like someone mentioned above, it's hard to find shops catered to a serious roadie or triathlete. They're typically geared (puns) toward the casual rider looking for exercise or a bike for the kid. Not a bad thing! Just means sometimes you have to shove your allegiances aside in order to get what you really need/want.

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"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"

That is too funny

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

saddle height: 609mm
saddle setback: +19mm
saddle type: Standard (fizik arione road)
nose to hood trough: 590.5mm
saddle top to handlebar top, 76mm

Please find me a bike small enough

Overall height 1619mm
Wingspan 1664mm

jaretj

I'll play as I'm currently looking for a new road bike anyway, now maybe I can find something used instead of new.

saddle height: 27" (almost perfectly inline with the seat tube)
saddle setback: -1 1\2" (horizontal distance from BB centerline))
saddle type: Adamo Century
nose to hood trough: 25"
saddle top to handlebar top, 1 7\8"

Height = 5'-8"
wingspan = 5'-11 1\4"

I've never had a fit done and this is my first road bike.

so, you're 5' 3 1/2", is that right? and you kind of have gorilla arms? did you wrestle? i bet the wrestling coach wanted you, with your weight class and that wingspan.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Nick B, we know what you mean. On the other hand, I am not worthy of my LBS.

http://wrenchedbicycles.com/about/staff/

It is a mile from my house and they have always treated me well. If they told me to stand on my head in the corner and wait for my bike, I would. I am not worthy.

If anyone is in the Gainesville, GA area, I highly recommend this shop.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

saddle set back is plumb line. it's going to be 60mm. or 70mm. something like that. assuming we measure in metric, which most of us do in cycling ;-)

just to be sure, that's not a ton of handlebar drop. you're happy with that? i'm going to just find you your bike, to fit your position. just making sure you're happy with that position.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

That's all accurate, they wanted me but my mother wouldn't let me wrestle with my gorilla arms

All my bike measurements are in my profile too (except my Felt F5)

I really like that Cannondale R800 I have, I really feel that fit is perfect.

jaretj

I know, but I don't have a metric tape and I'm a civil engineer so I normally deal in tenths and hundredth of a foot. ten years ago or so we went metric, but the old guard could not figure it out so we went back to feets and metric became a dirty word. I could convert but its the same as you doing it and doesn't make it any more precise :)

I feel my current bike is too big and I was stretched out pretty far so not happy with my fit. The actual distance nose to hood is 26-3\4" but I measured from where I typically hold on the curve of the top bar so the drop could be a little more without a problem. My seat is also slide forward on the rails as far as possible and I have a setback seatpost. FYI its a 2005 Felt F15 54cm

your gorilla arms are precisely why the coach wanted you to wrestle.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

A story from several years back to humorously illustrate that not all LBSeseses are created equal. I took a lovely but old steel Spectrum frame in to see if a shop with a very well-equipped mechanic's station would cold set/spread the rear to 130mm. The shop's tool wall had a frame alignment gauge hanging neatly in its place. Three different mechanics converged and told me with all sincerity that you cannot cold set steel...only aluminum or carbon.

I thanked them for their time and left.

http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

Scott

A lot of time its just insecurity. Go into a place where the employees are all ripped to shreds and young and you are fat or weak and if they make any kind of funny look you assume they are JUDGING YOU!!

They might be but prolly they are just hungry

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

first, let's make your fit coordinates all in millimeters:

saddle height: 686
saddle setback: -38mm
saddle type: Adamo Century
nose to hood trough: 635
saddle top to handlebar top: 48mm

i'm going to make some general comments. in my opinion, you have very suspect fit coordinates. i'm not saying you measured them wrong, i'm saying that they don't comport with how i would assume you would ride, being the dimensions you are. for example, if a saddle height of 686mm is a good saddle height for you, then for your height, and your saddle height, and your very long arms, i would assume the distance from the saddle nose to the hood trough to be more like 70cm or 71cm at least, as opposed to the 63.5 cm that you report, unless you sit waaaaay back in the saddle, which might be a proper assumption with your puny 38mm of saddle nose setback, but you're riding a saddle that doesn't typically lend itself well to that kind of sitting posture on the saddle.

still, let's stipulate to your fit coordinates.

when i look at the pic of your felt on your user profile, it looks like about a 90mm stem, in the +6° pitch, and about 40mm between the head tube top and the bottom of the stem (spacers, headset top cap, etc.) when i calc that out, using that front end that the pic appears to suggest, i get exactly the geometry of a 54cm Felt F series (bearing in mind that i don't know if the F geometry was exactly in 2005 what it is today, but let's assume it is).

if this is all correct, then you have a handlebar clamp that sits 620mm above the bottom bracket in the Y axis, and 454in the X axis, and that 454mm is exactly what i calc'd out when i took your fit coordinates and plopped them into my calculators. the 620mm is a little taller than a calc'd, but, in the ballpark.

in any case, here's what i would say. based on the fit coordinates you gave me, the exact wrong bike for you is the Felt F series. that's the longest, lowest geometry available in the world of road bikes and you are, based on your fit - based on how that bike is set up - what some folks call "gran fondo" geometry. you need a bike precisely on the opposite end of that spectrum, geometrically. something with a front end taller, and not as far out in front of you.

if we take that handlebar Y and X and we plop in a saner, more elegant front end, say, 90mm stem, in the -6° pitch instead of +6°, and only 20mm of total spacers + dust cover, etc., rather than 40mm, we need a bike that fits up under that front end that's got a stack and reach of 565mm and 377mm (instead of the 527mm and 389mm on the Felt F in 54cm).

here's a specialized roubaix in size 54cm: stack = 563mm, reach = 380mm. very very close.

this assumes a bar with the same bar reach you've got on your bike now. maybe that's 80mm. maybe 90mm. i'm guessing 80mm. if you move to a bar with a 70mm reach (very popular nowadays) then you compensate with a 100mm stem in pace of the 90mm stem.

do you like the litespeed C1R? that bike in ML has a stack and reach of 567mm/387mm. oops. it's exactly the right height, but 10mm too long. so, how about the handlebar with the 70mm reach but we stay with the 90mm stem. then it all works.

giant defy, size M: 566/376
felt Z series, size 54: 564/383 (a tad long, but very close, much better than the F series)
cervelo R series, size 54: 555/378 (so we slap one more 10mm spacer under the stem)
cannondale synapse, size 54: 566/374

all these bikes work great for you. but, that's IF the fit you currently have is the fit that works for you. if your fit is off, then the bikes i've given you will work great for your crappy position.

that's bike fitting today. the first part of the process is generating a good set of fit coordinates, and i'm not sure yours are optimized. we haven't tackled that today. part 2, which we tackled right here in this post, is just a big math problem. very solvable math problem. as i just solved for you. this is the reasonable expectation of a fit session. if this isn't what you're getting, you're not getting what's available. this is what we teach in F.I.S.T. workshops. it's also what they teach at retul and GURU. not that all the fitters are able to absorb this and reproduce it, but, this is the process. no alchemy here. no black art. just math.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

my cats name is mittens

ralph wiggums, if you read this, then this, i walk you thru it. it's not that hard. it's just a different language, hard on the ears until you start to become familiar with it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I can usually fit to 2 frame sizes even 3 I suppose in a model range.


The LBS might be right, in steering a customer to say a larger size frame. The seatpost will be shorter, more generous head tube, and more adjustment range fore and aft on the horizontal. Also with a longer wheelbase, the frame will be slightly more of a "GT" ride vs the smaller frame.

A smaller frame is, to me, a purpose or specialized situation fit. Smaller frames seem to flex, weigh less, more aggressive/lower bars, and tighter range reach wise before things get crazy. Things are more cramped, even with a longer stem, due to position on the bike and weight distribution.

Depends on intended use, how long to own the bike. If you are looking for years of use, then the "proper" size might be the best option due to range of adjustment.

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

I will jump in if you don't mind:

in mm.:
saddle height: 790
saddle setback: 56
saddle type: standard saddle
nose to hood trough: 695
saddle top to handlebar top: 50

i am 186cm tall and my wingspan is 197 cm. I currently ride a Felt F size 56, with a 90mm stem turned upwards. comfy, but I can feel my knees open when I grab the drops, and I can't hold it there for a long time.
This is my first bike, I bought it to give tri a try, and I am happily hooked, looking forward to my second season, and looking for both an upgrade in my road bike and a first TT bike. In this line, I have a question, is this information valuable to narrow my choices when looking at a TT bike, or do I need to start from scratch and get a fit?

Thanks Slowman!

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Sr. Salitre

That's not much setback for your saddle height. I'm guessing your bars are high because you get a sore back and/or tingly hands?

In any case, some options

Right, a slipped disc in my lower back, fortunately with a strong core I can run and ride without pain.

Thanks!

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Sr. Salitre

I'd love to play. Thank you for taking the time to do this.

saddle height: 620 mm
saddle setback: 10 mm
saddle type: Standard - Specialized Romin
nose to hood trough: 605 mm
saddle top to handlebar top: 25 mm

Height: 165 cm
Wingspan: 172 cm

This fit is probably not ideal, but generally comfortable in the hoods, hooks, and drops. I'd prefer to rotate my pelvis forward a bit more, but doing so generally causes saddle discomfort.

With my PD T1+ clip-ons, I tend to fidget and scoot forward on the saddle. I cannot tolerate more than a minute or two perched on the nose of the saddle in this position. Ideally, the saddle would come up and forward when using aerobars to effectively rotate my position around the BB.

(Edit: measurement corrections)

one more, if you don't mind: nose to handlebar clamp.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

That one is 540 mm.

Looking forward to your reply

Thanks,

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Sr. Salitre

you're saying that when you measure from the nose of the saddle to the point where the handlebar passes through the stem, the center of the handlebar, that measures 54cm? and, the nose of your saddle sits 1cm behind the BB in the vertical plane?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan I'll play if you don't mind :) Thanks

height: 2040mm
wingspan: 2050mm

saddle height: 880mm (I think I could get a little higher, but feels ok. leg length from floor to crotch is about 970mm)
saddle setback: 110mm
saddle type: normal older fizik model
nose to hood trough: 753mm (if it is of importance, the handlebar is the oddly shaped 3T Aeronova 42mm)
saddle top to handlebar top: 135mm
nose to handlebar clamp: 600mm

I think this is a decent fit for me. I am looking at aero bikes. I would love to be able to fit on an Felt AR, but any other frame suggestion is welcome of course (if they are available in Europe) and am probably at the edge of the biggest framesizes most manufacturers make, but I could be wrong. Flexibility is pretty good, can lay my palms flat on the ground in front of me (not sure if this is helpful in any way)

You are mixing my measures with superbike's

My saddle setback is more like 5,6cm.

i see a pattern here. only giants and small people. are you guys all in the cast of game of thrones?

height: 2040mm
wingspan: 2050mm

saddle height: 880mm (I think I could get a little higher, but feels ok. leg length from floor to crotch is about 970mm)
saddle setback: 110mm
saddle type: normal older fizik model
nose to hood trough: 753mm (if it is of importance, the handlebar is the oddly shaped 3T Aeronova 42mm)
saddle top to handlebar top: 135mm
nose to handlebar clamp: 600mm

first i'm going to calculate the X and Y values from BB to handlebar clamp center. HX = saddle to h'bar clamp minus saddle setback, yes? so:

HX = 490mm
HY = 685mm

how did i get that second number? saddle height x cosine of the saddle declination (maybe 17°). which is about .95. so, that 880mm has a vertical component of about 836mm. subtract handlebar elevation drop, and subtract another 16mm (half of 31.8mm) to get to HY.

now, if you have a DIRECT measure of HY, that's even better. we can see if my math yielded the right result. but in the off chance my indirect calcs yielded a good number, then let's figure your bike options. but i have a question before we continue: do you want to keep this bar? here's why i ask.

HX = 490mm
HY = 685mm

let's figure what for a front end? 130mm stem? -6° pitch? 15mm total spacers + top cap/dust cover? that would be a nice front end. so, you plug this in and here's what we're looking for for stack and reach in a frame:

627mm
373mm

that's not nearly enough length (reach). here's a Cervelo R3 in 61cm:

630mm
405mm

we need another 30mm of length. where do we get that? the aeronova handlebar has a bar reach of 104mm. if we replace that with a Zipper super short and shallow (70mm reach) we need a frame now of

627mm
407mm

the R series starts to look pretty good, eh? here's the dirty little secret of handlebar geometry: when you start to give pro tour teams the choice of geometry, year-1 about a quarter of the riders choose short reach. by year-2 the entire team, every rider, every size, has opted for short reach. the aeronova is a paradigm of the past, unless you need it. i had a shop owner in here for a bike fit workshop last week, saddle height 860mm, but he needed the opposite. he had a HX of something like 530mm or 540mm. we couldn't find bikes long enough. so we fit him on a sampson road bar that has a reach of 110mm. but that's not what you need. you need to "find" length, and not because your position is bad. 753mm of nose to trough is about right. okay, maybe a little short of anything, but not overly short. it's in the ballpark. the problem we have is that handlebar reach of the aeronova.

here's a cannondale supersix in 63cm

620mm
399mm

so, we need it to be a little taller (add a 5mm spacer) and a little longer. in this case, okay, maybe you need a h'bar with 80mm of reach instead of 70mm. i'll bet you never really thought of handlebar reach as an active component of bike fit, but obviously in my view it is.

so is stem length and pitch. let's look at 2 trek sizes in its H2 geometry:

62cm: 634mm 398mm
64cm: 654mm 401mm

with a slightly longer reach bar (80mm) or 140mm stem, that 62mm is a nice fit if you slam the stem (take out 5mm or 10mm of the 15mm total of spacer + dust cover). that's what i'd do. but let's say you were offered a screaming deal on the 64cm on the dealer's floor. here's what i'd do:

if we take an HX of 524mm (which we would need with a bar reach of 70mm), and an HY of 685, we keep that 130mm front end, 15mm spacers, but instead of the -6° stem we slot in a stem parallel to the ground (-17°). with that flatter front end we make room for more frame to fill up underneath. we are now looking for a frame with a stack of 652mm and a reach of 404mm. that frame will fit fine.

see how this works? now, this all depends on whether my HY calculation turned out correct for you. but if so, really, these are easy problems, and you know exactly what to look for in a replacement bike, but that's IF your position is good. this process described will faithfully determine, with precision, what complete bike solution works for the position you present to it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

oh, yeah, sorry about that. i couldn't make any sense of it. now i know why. give me awhile on this.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

2 more questions and the correct answer to your question is no, this won't have any effect on your tri bike choice. but i have an asterisk to this, which i hesitate to mention, but if you remind me when we're all done maybe i'll mention it anyway.

my 2 questions: do you know what handlebar you're riding? i ask because, like the last analysis i did in this thread, you have a big value for the difference between saddle nose to handlebar clamp and saddle nose to hood trough. this suggests a pretty long reach handlebar. you measure bar reach as the horizontal distance between the center of the bar's top and the center of the bar at its most forward protrusion.

second question. you have a small handlebar drop from the saddle considering your height and saddle height. why do you think that is?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

So no bikes for me?

Haha good one Dan! Maybe the giants and midgets just need the most help with fits? Luckily I am a little lighter than Hodor!

Anyway, thank you very much for your detailed response! And you openend my eyes to what an influence handlebars can have, you are right, I had no idea of the influence they can have. I am definitely not married to it, but I chose it as it had an aero profile with internal cable routing and had room for clamping aero bars which was a must for me. On a new bike I would definitely favor a well fitting bar over an aero profiled bar, if these two cannot be combined (if I am correct, Zipp bars do not allow aerobars, so that leaves ENVE) I guess stem length could also take up some of the reach though right? Right now I'm on a 120mm -6deg stem. Your enumeration of HY and HX makes alot of sense, and I can now adjudicate reach and stack on bikes better. I had always expected that I did not have alot of reach compared to my height and this confirms it. Just one question regarding HX. You determine the HY value by taking the cosine since the saddle height is at an angle. But then for HX you simply subtract the saddle setback from the nose to handlebar clamp measurement, which is also a measurement at an angle, correct? Just making sure all bases are covered there.

the problem with you and everyone who has commented to your post is that you are walking in this world with slowman and his magic floating inside your heads. in fact, that includes all of ST. we are about .0000000000000007869% of the world's population. surely even lesser.

the problem with the rest of the world not included in my first statement is --- well they have no idea what the hell is that magic floating in our heads.

there is no solution if those two groups communicate.

andrew

My replies to your questions:

1- reading your first one I realized I maybe measured nose to hood wrong. I went to the top of the hood, instead of the end of the lower surface where I rest my hand. Anyway, that is 25mm less(670 nose to hood) I am using the stock handlebar for my Felt. 44 cm wide, 120 mm drop and 7 cm reach.
2- this can be because of the slipped disc in my lower back I mentioned in an earlier post.

And no, you will not walk away without me reminding you about the asterisk on tri bikes, it is a main concern to me, mainly because of 2 :)

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Sr. Salitre

"So no bikes for me?"

just went running. now going swimming. i'll get to these eventually, but at some point i'm going to ask some of you smarty pantses to see what i keep doing for each of you (same process) and take this process out for a spin yourselves, here on this thread, one of you attempting to help the other.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"But then for HX you simply subtract the saddle setback from the nose to handlebar clamp measurement, which is also a measurement at an angle, correct?"

yes, but that's a pretty small angle. so i'm not that worried about it.

your next road handlebar might be a profile design cobra. short reach, aero road bar.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I was just being a smartxss :)

I'll second this. I know off hand of at least 3-4 high end speced shops who can cater to the whole gambit. The shop I use has a great mechanic who I've yet to get a "dazed and confused" look on his face when I'm being highly specific. I bounce ideas off him about everything from cables (Yokozuna, Dura-Ace, Nocon) to brake pads (Cryo-Blue Power, Salmon Swiss Stop, etc) and even things like K-Edge combo mount (GoPro/Garmin) and he always knows what I'm talking about. I think he's the rare cycling junkie who wrenches very well and loves his job. He's always asking when out next project is going to happen. I also regularly get him to tune things for me prior to a race and they don't charge me. I get "shop pro discount" which is basically just a customer appreciation discount of 10% on everything I buy. It's not alot but adds up!

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

In my second post I mentioned that the actual nose of seat to hood trough distance was 680mm but I rarely ride in the hoods. Typically I grab the top curved portion of the bars which is 635mm and didn't want another fit like I had so I entered the distance I normally ride with as something I can tolerate. This might be why you say my fit coordinates are suspect and I hope the actual measurement makes more sense to you.

I don't sit back very far on the saddle, but not on the nose rails either. Its more in the middle of the seat, but slightly forward. My seat is actually mounted as far forward as possible on the stock Felt carbon setback seat post.

Gorilla arms? I never thought of myself having long arms. I think my wingspan measurement is unusually long compared to my height due to my wide shoulders and not so much may arm length.

I think you did nail it though with the EXACT WRONG bike for me comment. I've always felt stretch way out in the hoods and the fact that the F series is one of the longest and lowest bikes out there only verifies my feeling of my fit.

So if you insert the actual seat nose to hood trough distance of 680mm, does that do anything to the stack and reach coordinates you recommend for me? I'm currently looking at a BMC GF01/02 (ironically this bike's name is the same as what you called my fit riding geometry) and with the stack of 565mm and a reach of 377mm that you calculate, a BMC GF01 54mm is also the right bike for me with a stack of 563mm and a reach of 375mm.

What would I need to do if I find a 51cm BMC GF01 that has a stack of 546mm and a reach of 365mm? I'm assuming I would need to raise my bars up 20mm and change to a stem that is 10mm longer or have a more aggressive fit and leave the stack alone but still lengthen the stem 10mm.

BTW, thanks for doing this, I really appreciate it.

one question, before i dive into this. your saddle nose, on your ROAD bike, is 2cm in front of the BB?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Yes, I've tried putting it behind the BB but it always feels like I'm pushing really far forward on the down stroke.

I also sit near the back of the saddle (fizik arione)

jaretj

saddle height: 609mm
saddle setback: +19mm
saddle type: Standard (fizik arione road)
nose to hood trough: 590.5mm
saddle top to handlebar top, 76mm

Please find me a bike small enough

Overall height 1619mm
Wingspan 1664mm

same as with the other analyses, i'm looking for the following, and here's what i calculate, more or less:

HY: 518
HX: 470

the typical problem with shorter riders is that you can't get the cockpit short enough. that's not your problem. your bars are out there quite far and i think that's due to 2 things: 1) you have long arms; 2) you have your saddle so far forward (even if you sit near the back of the saddle).

but what you do have is a height issue. with only a 61cm saddle height, but with a lot of handlebar drop for that height (7.6cm) you need a low, low, low bike.

so, we have one rider who's got a Felt F series further up in this thread and it's exactly wrong for him. this geometry is exactly right for you, and i know this before i even do the calcs.

because that 518mm HY is so low, i need to assume you're going to have a very flat front end, with the smallest amount of elevation above the frame possible. i'll also err on the longish side on stems. i'll go 100mm, only a 5mm headset dust cover, no spacers, and a -17° stem.

with that front end we're looking for a bike that has the following:

stack: 494mm
reach: 377mm

scott foil 47: 503/371
scott foil 49: 509/379

one of these fits you better lengthwise, the other heightwise. i guess i would err on the 47, because it's a little easier to mess around with the length, but you have a bike frame height dilemma created by the fact you probably want to stick with 700c wheels.

there are lots of bikes like this. felt's 48cm F series is 500/370. in these cases where you have this geometry, it's a slight bit taller than perfect, and a slight bit shorter, you fix it by going to a 110mm stem, or a handlebar with a 1cm longer reach than you're now riding, or you deal with a cockpit a few cms shorter, or you scoot your saddle back 5mm or 6mm (i think it's too far forward anyway).

the problem i'm having is trying to figure out how your cannondale can get as low as you have those bars. maybe i'm just not familiar with the geometry of that bike.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Realize it's a mtb part (Syntace has one too--Flatforce?) but surefire way to reduce stack at the handlebar (even with short stems): http://www.fullspeedahead.com/.../non-series-stem-20/

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The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock

I want to understand this trend of pro tour riders loving short reach bars. The way I picture it is you have a position you like and you put a short reach set of bars on, then you need to change to a longer stem in order to keep the hood trough hand position the same. I would propose that this is the most important position since the most time is spent in this position. Therefore switching from a standard reach bar to a short reach bar would have the effect of lengthening the position on the bar tops. Maybe the pro jocks want this because it can make their climbing position more aerodynamic? But for most people I would think that a shorter reach to the bar tops would be more comfortable for climbing. So I guess what I really want to know is: should we all be considering short reach bars because we all want to be pro?

You're missing an angular correction on the setback. This will lead to always calculating Hx a bit long.


Sl70 doesn't have much room in the drops though. If short reach required for big hands Deda RHM is a bit roomier and is 75mm reach.
Before I go further I submit that his saddle is on the high side. And Reach is a bit short for someone with a long torso.
Correcting the current hx,hy of 483,693 for an RHM shaped bar yields 512,693




But since the OP is looking at aero bikes we'll tweak the filters





R3 MKIII is a semi aero frame. But as the "Also Consider" field at the bottom shows - it shares geometry with a number of other Cervelos, including the 1st Generation S5. S3 not in there yet but shares the geometry. As shown by the Bar X and Bar Y fields - this setup within 2mm of target (search was done with 5mm tolerance).

The Cannondale is a 650 bike
Specifically it's a 2002 CAAD5 44cm. I found the frame on Ebay as New Old Stock.
Link to my geometry notes, it's the second bike from the left.
https://docs.google.com/...64_V7X-i0/edit#gid=0

I'm using a 110mm -17° stem on it right now
Very small headset cap below the stem.

I actually have a Felt F5 48 with 700C wheels, 110 -17° stem. I picked that bike because of the low stack and good front end geometry. I like the bike but there are two fit problems with it for me.
1. I cannot get the bars low enough to get my hip angle down nearer 100° unless I'm on the drops
2. If I do put the bars low enough with a -30 stem, the drops are below the top of the front tire which is not UCI legal and I cannot use that bike for draft legal events.

Handling wise it rides well, I like the way it turns but it's not nearly as nimble as my old Trek 2200 and Cannondale CAAD5. I spent last year riding it near home on flat roads as well as up and down some Mountains in Georgia and smaller foothills in Southern Ohio.

The bars I'm using are Bontrager Race VR-S 38cm. They are some of the shallowest drop bars I could find. I actually have the same bar on the Cannondale.

I think the only way to put me on 700C wheels is to have a bike with a higher BB so the saddle can be higher relative to the bars. I see that trend in some of the womens 29er mountain bikes, specifically the Trek Superfly.

Perhaps I could learn to bend my elbows more and conform to the bike since women like Barbra Riveros and Ai Ueda have bikes that work for them.

I really don't think there will be any new high end 650 road bikes introduced to the market any time soon so that option is not available.

Thanks for all of your help

jaretj

We have some good ones here in Vancouver, though I suspect it's only the fitters that even know the terms Stack and Reach.

I recall when I first got into cycling, walked into a real messy shop near my house as I knew nothing at all about cycling, the guy behind the counter looks at me and says, oh, you're a 56. No measurements, no testing. I'm actually on a 54. Needless to say, no bikes were purchased there.

It gets interesting when the only bike fitter you will use moves from your preferred store to another one.

Today, having purchased over 10 bikes in the past 7 years, my choice of an LBS is simple. Who's the fitter and who are the mechanics, I could care less who the salespeople are.

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Cervelo R3 and Cannondale Synapse, Argon18 Electron Track Bike

it sounds like my interpretation of your issues, and your own interpretation of and solution for your issues, pretty well match.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"You're missing an angular correction on the setback. This will lead to always calculating Hx a bit long."

i'm not following you. can you try this again? the only angular correction i can think of that i'm missing is handlebar elevation. is that what you're referring to, that i don't take that into consideration when determining HX?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I've even tried to stretch the Felt out by moving the saddle back to get my hip angle right. With my short femurs that puts me too far behind the BB to pedal effectively.

I know, unusual problems and thanks again for your help

Our local bike shop does the fitting for Sato Hydrosloth and Svein Tuft. Word out

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http://www.fitspeek.com the Fraser Valley's fitness, wellness, and endurance sports podcast

Before this gets lost in the post stack, I would like to have an answer to my case... I still can't figure this out myself.

Thanks!

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Sr. Salitre

It won't solve the handlebar-above-the-wheels thing, but a company that makes very, very low road bikes is Argon 18. My girlfriend is 155cm and more torso than leg, and we found a great deal for her on an older Krypton. The bare head tube measures something like 70-80mm and comes with a very thin headset cover.

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

Yes, La Bicicletta and Speedtheory are both set-up for proper fittings, Pacific Multsports is also run by an experienced knowledgeable staff.

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res, non verba

Thanks for the info on the Argon 18

jaretj

Who is the young lady who does fits at La Bicicletta? Just had an athlet go through there, great response and feed back. Ex phys background....the opinion was extremely knowledgable, but not imposing in her view points, methodolgy etc.

Retul fit IIRC, but no data yet as it was recent.

Maurice

http://labiciclettaproshop.com/...ike-fitting-pg56.htm
Noa Deutsch?

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res, non verba

Yes, I think thats her. She comes across as a person from a knowledge base but doesn't impose too much…just voices her opinion based on XYZ. Athlete feed back is excellent although I don't know her nor have I ever met her. Looking forward to seeing results etc,

Maurice