Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

CHP, 3 foot law bicycles
Quote | Reply
New california new law requiring 3 feet from car passing cyclist. On a two lane road with double yellow line [no passing], a SUV passed us, and went over double yellow. CHP officer wrote her a ticket [no on coming vehicle on this rural road]. After writing motorist ticket, CHP officer follow us. We pulled over and stopped, and he said he could not legally pass us. This was do to the width of our lane. He went on to say, we could receive a ticket for "Impending traffic." Ok, there is the the "Law," but to follow to the letter of the law and not to the practical purpose, defeats the intent of law. This law could result in more traffic accidents due to motorist afraid of CHP giving ticket for mildly going over double yellow. Is this a bad law?
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [tizdaday] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
CHP was one of the biggest opponents of the 3-foot law.
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [tizdaday] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tizdaday wrote:
New california new law requiring 3 feet from car passing cyclist. On a two lane road with double yellow line [no passing], a SUV passed us, and went over double yellow. CHP officer wrote her a ticket [no on coming vehicle on this rural road]. After writing motorist ticket, CHP officer follow us. We pulled over and stopped, and he said he could not legally pass us. This was do to the width of our lane. He went on to say, we could receive a ticket for "Impending traffic." Ok, there is the the "Law," but to follow to the letter of the law and not to the practical purpose, defeats the intent of law. This law could result in more traffic accidents due to motorist afraid of CHP giving ticket for mildly going over double yellow. Is this a bad law?

Law is good.....

If, as mentioned, some former opponents would pull their head out their dark crevasses, it would be even better.

If I were to be cited, I would fight it on grounds that the laws are contradictory as they stand, as no other amendments to the existing laws (obviously necessary) have been made.

The CVC is a contradictory patchwork.

Prime example:

Cars yield to pedestrians and cyclists.
VERSUS:
Cyclists operate a vehicle and are subject to all vehicular law (such as right of way rules).

Which is it? Do cyclists have a general right of way or are they equal among other vehicles (no automatic right of way)?

Mind-boggling confusion.
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [tizdaday] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Before the current version of the law was passed, there was a previous version that allowed cars to cross a double yellow to pass cyclists. It was vetoed due to potential liability of the state.

If cars can not legally pass you and you are travelling below the speed limit you must pull off the road when it is safe to do so. This applies to things like RVs and tractors and bicycles too.
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [torrey] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
California vehicle code does allow vehicles to cross left of center when passing another vehicle, subject to certain limitations. Is it possible the car was approaching a hill or curve, or the conditions were otherwise unsafe to pass, and they passed anyway?





Vehicle Code – VEH
DIVISION 11. RULES OF THE ROAD [21000 - 23336]
( Division 11 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )
CHAPTER 3. Driving, Overtaking, and Passing [21650 - 21759]
( Chapter 3 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )



ARTICLE 3. Overtaking and Passing [21750 - 21760]

( Article 3 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )




21751 On a two-lane highway, no vehicle shall be driven to the left side of the center of the roadway in overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction unless the left side is clearly visible and free of oncoming traffic for a sufficient distance ahead to permit such overtaking and passing to be completely made without interfering with the safe operation of any vehicle approaching from the opposite direction.



21752 No vehicle shall be driven to the left side of the roadway under the following conditions:
(a) When approaching or upon the crest of a grade or a curve in the highway where the driver’s view is obstructed within such distance as to create a hazard in the event another vehicle might approach from the opposite direction.
(b) When the view is obstructed upon approaching within 100 feet of any bridge, viaduct, or tunnel.
(c) When approaching within 100 feet of or when traversing any railroad grade crossing.
(d) When approaching within 100 feet of or when traversing any intersection.
This section shall not apply upon a one-way roadway.


Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [mcclelland] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
There's a thing called 'Spirit of the Law' which takes into consideration the intention of the Law, and not what is actually defined. If a car passes within 3 feet of a cyclist or crosses the double yellow and if they do it with consideration to the safety of both parties, then judges or police / CHP may let it slide.
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [tizdaday] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tizdaday wrote:
New california new law requiring 3 feet from car passing cyclist. On a two lane road with double yellow line [no passing], a SUV passed us, and went over double yellow. CHP officer wrote her a ticket [no on coming vehicle on this rural road]. After writing motorist ticket, CHP officer follow us. We pulled over and stopped, and he said he could not legally pass us. This was do to the width of our lane. He went on to say, we could receive a ticket for "Impending traffic." Ok, there is the the "Law," but to follow to the letter of the law and not to the practical purpose, defeats the intent of law. This law could result in more traffic accidents due to motorist afraid of CHP giving ticket for mildly going over double yellow. Is this a bad law?

The anti-bike people love this "impeding traffic" line. Totally wrong. If the lane was substandard width, you were doing exactly what you were supposed to do. In California, people riding bikes have all of the rights and are subject to all of the provisions of the Vehicle Code except those that, by their nature, do not apply. (CVC 21200(a).) On a "substandard width lane," defined as a lane that is too narrow to accommodate both a person riding a bicycle and a motor vehicle, it is both legal and recommended to "take the lane." (CVC 21202(a)(3).) While the Vehicle Code prohibits driving at such a slow speed as to impede or block the "normal and reasonable" movement of traffic (which I read to mean that you can't get a ticket for going the speed limit), it excludes instances where reduced speed is necessary for safe operation (like approaching a blind intersection or turn), due to a grade (like a truck going uphill), or in compliance with the law. This last clause is key, because people on bikes are not required to comply with sections of the Vehicle Code that, by their nature, do not not apply. (CVC 22400) Trotted v. Selz, an Ohio appellate court case (which means it is not controlling authority in California) that is often cited on this issue and interprets a statute very similar to CVC 22400, held that if a vehicle is moving as fast as it reasonably can it is not impeding traffic. To hold otherwise would effectively exclude a whole range vehicles that, by their nature are slow. This include farm equipment, animals, and other "vehicles," including bikes. When I lived in Chico I got stuck behind farm equipment a lot. Now, if if you were not in a substandard width lane and you were not riding as for to the right as practicable or if there were more than five vehicles lined up behind you and you did not pull off wherever there is sufficient space for a safe turnout, then you should have been ticketed. (CVC 21200, 21656.)





Ken Petruzzelli
My Blog - Opinionated Triathlete & Lawyer
Coached by TriMarni Coaching & Nutrition
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [tizdaday] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It always amazes me when law enforcement officers don't understand the laws they are charged with enforcing...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [tizdaday] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tizdaday wrote:
New california new law requiring 3 feet from car passing cyclist. ......... Is this a bad law?


It's a great law for cyclists because it allows bicycle riders to ride in greater safety by forcing drivers to respect the road space of cyclists. This law might suck for motorists, but I don't care. One big mistake that the USA has done is to prioritize automobile traffic above everything else and that "car first ideology" in urban planning must stop now.
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [Bull_Winkle] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bull_Winkle wrote:
tizdaday wrote:
New california new law requiring 3 feet from car passing cyclist. ......... Is this a bad law?


It's a great law for cyclists because it allows bicycle riders to ride in greater safety by forcing drivers to respect the road space of cyclists. This law might suck for motorists, but I don't care. One big mistake that the USA has done is to prioritize automobile traffic above everything else and that "car first ideology" in urban planning must stop now.

My only beef with it is that it appears to be more of an "after the fact" type of law (i.e. something a motorist is charged with typically only after actually hitting a cyclist - and obviously wasn't 3 ft. away)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [tizdaday] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tizdaday wrote:
... he said he could not legally pass us.

Well, that didn't stop two police cars last week from overtaking me with significantly less than 3 feet clearance on different occasions...
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [Bull_Winkle] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Has anyone actually seen anyone follow this law yet, besides the said CHP officer? Cars pass me as closely as ever, and regularly wander between the car lanes and bike lanes. I still see motorcycles in the bike lanes regularly. I get honked at in double-chevron (shared) lanes. There's no attempt to educate the public on this topic that I have seen.

I even spoke to a couple folks in a bar about the double chevron lanes, like those around CdM. We got into a discussion where they insisted bikes aren't allowed there. Seriously!

I'm pretty amazed the CHP officer actually did something. Hats off to him. Perhaps he's a little extreme.

(I'm in orange county. After living in several other regions, I can say here it's an unpredictable mix of very courteous and knowledgeable drivers, wandering zombie email-checking drivers, angry show off drivers, and highly confused drivers)
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [tizdaday] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
i don't imagine you have the ID of either of these parties, the SUV or the CHP?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tom A. wrote:
It always amazes me when law enforcement officers don't understand the laws they are charged with enforcing...

They don't get a lot of training. Probably the biggest problem is often confusing riding as far right as "practicable" with as far right as reasonable, practical, etc. "Practicable" is considered to have a different meaning, significantly a subjective component that is more deferential to the person on the bike.

Ken Petruzzelli
My Blog - Opinionated Triathlete & Lawyer
Coached by TriMarni Coaching & Nutrition
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [tizdaday] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That's BS. The next time the CHP pulls over someone in front of you and there is no way to get past without crossing the double yellow, you should just stop and wait until they write the person up? The CHP (and everyone behind you) would be wetting their pants if you did that.
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The idea is to make it easier for the person on the bike to recover in a civil case, but I agree, it's more after the fact. if we want to encourage safer driving behavior we need something with more teeth. Unfortunately, Brown vetoed the vulnerable road user bill, although that bill was pretty watered down by the time it reached his desk.

Ken Petruzzelli
My Blog - Opinionated Triathlete & Lawyer
Coached by TriMarni Coaching & Nutrition
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman, I don't have names..but I do have time at around 0830 am, Honey Springs Rd. San Diego Ca., Saturday the 25 Oct. 14. The SUV was a Mercedes with a female driver. If there a way to reserch with known parameters, I hope any legal eagles, should help this unfortunate Mercedes driver.
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [tizdaday] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
well, that's out there. pretty rural. i would not think it would be that hard to track down the officer, which tracks down the motorist. and you as a witness for the motorist, if you're so willing.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [mcclelland] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
We were climbing a slight grade. We were far right, riding white line. We are sesoned triathletes/bicyclist [ more than 20 yrs. each ]. There was no curve or degraded visability at the time [fog]. No approaching intersections.
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm on board, we have to protect our lives, and live in harmony with motorist. This maybe a case of poorly informed CHP.
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [kenpetruzzelli] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
kenpetruzzelli wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
It always amazes me when law enforcement officers don't understand the laws they are charged with enforcing...

They don't get a lot of training. Probably the biggest problem is often confusing riding as far right as "practicable" with as far right as reasonable, practical, etc. "Practicable" is considered to have a different meaning, significantly a subjective component that is more deferential to the person on the bike.

Ha! Yeah, the last thing one would expect a LAW ENFORCEMENT officer to be trained on would be...umm...laws? :-/

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [tizdaday] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
i'm interviewing the CHP about this tomorrow morning. officially. i'm asking for a statement that can be relied upon statewide and hoping that i can either get that, or at least request it, so that it might hopefully be forthcoming. i'm going to memorialize this interview in writing, here on slowtwitch, evermore to be found by anybody searching this topic. so, we'll see. stay tuned. i'm as interested as you are.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [tizdaday] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"Impeding", not "Impending" ???

As I see it, the law is not contradictory.

The (slow) cyclist is (presumably) following the law, keeping to the side of the lane, as they are legal road users. The car that catches up does not have the 'right' to pass, but has the privilege of passing, but only when it is safe to do so. The double yellow lines indicate that it's not safe to pass at that location. Therefore, the motorist has to wait.

It's just like if you're driving up a canyon road and come up behind say a cement truck making a delivery to a place at the top of the hill. He'd be going about the same speed as a cyclist. Does the motorist have the right to pass? No. According to the law the motorist has to wait until it's safe to pass (ie no double yellow lines).

Following a cyclist in such situation is annoying, I agree. I hate it when I'm in that situation. I also hate when I get stuck behind a cement truck going slowly. Still, I'm not going to endanger my life, the life of the cyclist or cement truck driver, let alone potential oncoming drivers, by passing in an unsafe situation. What I hate more is when some self centred jerk puts my life in danger by passing in an unsafe situation, just to save a few seconds or minutes. As a motorist, if getting to your destination on time means that much to you, the solution is easy. Leave earlier to allow for potential slowdowns. We leave for work early for the known slowdown of rush hour traffic. Surely it's simple enough as a grown up to allow for potential slowdowns like cyclists or cement trucks?

I think the confusion in some peoples minds comes from people too often being ego centric. The road rules are generally centred around the well being of the public in general, not the individual in the car, catching up to slower traffic.

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [tizdaday] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This law was put into place as yet another excuse for generating revenue. It was passed in the guise of cyclist safety. It's intent is revenue generation.

The California Highway Patrol does not care about cyclists at all. Cyclists are a poor source of revenue for the CHP.

Btw (not CHP but) our local police, upon hearing that our city ranked near the top for cyclist/automobile collisions responded by increasing tickets given to…….


….cyclists!

Yay.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [tizdaday] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I ride with a GoPro. (I'm about to get a second one, so I will have one front and one rear)
We don't have the 3 foot 'law' here in New Zealand. We do have a guideline in the road code of 1.5 metre (about 5 feet!)however. Our roads are waaaaaay narrower than American roads so 1.5m is a fantasy like a winning lottery ticket. Since the 1.5m, I have noticed a general improvement in the space given to me by motorists so, like my old school report cards "improvement noted"
About 1-2 times a year the police get sent a segment of my bicycle video's of infractions. I don't get silly and send every infraction, just the bad ones. So far I've been advised by the cops that two of the people have been ticketed (one for $400 for technically a hit and run when a wing mirror hit my elbow) and several have received written warnings. I know they send the warning letters because my daughters ex-boyfriend used to get them and a young colleague gets them all the time. Likewise, companies get sent videos of their company vehicles being driven badly, as do the bus companies. Generally that gets me a polite email saying their employee has been warned.

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [tizdaday] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Do you think the location had anything to do with CHPs decision to ticket? (I guess I should start with: is the controversial sign on Honey Springs saying to run over cyclists rather than cross the yellow lines still up?)

I'm pretty sure I saw someone get pulled over for violating the 3 ft rule last weekend. CHP flashed the car right after it crossed the yellow lines to get around a group of cyclists. It was on the crest of the bridge right next to the CHP station off of Sea World Drive. The driver probably deserved to get a ticket, given the hill/bridge/curve situation at the point he passed.
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
i'm interviewing the CHP about this tomorrow morning. officially. i'm asking for a statement that can be relied upon statewide and hoping that i can either get that, or at least request it, so that it might hopefully be forthcoming. i'm going to memorialize this interview in writing, here on slowtwitch, evermore to be found by anybody searching this topic. so, we'll see. stay tuned. i'm as interested as you are.

Thank you!
Quote Reply
Re: CHP, 3 foot law bicycles [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
GreatScott wrote:
Slowman wrote:
i'm interviewing the CHP about this tomorrow morning. officially. i'm asking for a statement that can be relied upon statewide and hoping that i can either get that, or at least request it, so that it might hopefully be forthcoming. i'm going to memorialize this interview in writing, here on slowtwitch, evermore to be found by anybody searching this topic. so, we'll see. stay tuned. i'm as interested as you are.


Thank you!

Curious if there is an update?

************************
#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012
Quote Reply