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NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks?
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Hey guys,

I want to integrate theses metrics in MaximumTrainer (cycling software), but I heard they are registered to Peaksware LLC.
I was wondering if it is really true, because the terms seem quite generic to be registered.

Anyone had problem using theses metrics? are you forced to link it with Peaksware every time you use the words?
If I need to, I was thinking of adding this on my website:
Normalized Power(NP), Training Stress Score(TSS) and Intensity Factor(IF) are registered trademarks of Peaksware LLC. [Link to Peaksware website]


Thanks in advance!


Free Indoor Cycling Software - https://maximumtrainer.com
Last edited by: MaximumTrainer: Oct 28, 14 18:19
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [MaximumTrainer] [ In reply to ]
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MaximumTrainer wrote:
Hey guys,

I want to integrate theses metrics in MaximumTrainer (cycling software), but I heard they are registered to Peaksware LLC.
I was wondering if it is really true, because the terms seem quite generic to be registered.

Anyone had problem using theses metrics? are you forced to link it with Peaksware every time you use the words?
If I need to, I was thinking of adding this on my website:
Normalized Power(NP), Training Stress Score(TSS) and Intensity Factor(IF) are registered trademarks of Peaksware LLC. [Link to Peaksware website]


Thanks in advance!

Yes, TraininigPeaks (as Peaksware, I believe) holds the trademarks to those terms. As for their legal use, this document would presumably answer any questions you might have:

http://www.uspto.gov/...emarks/law/tmlaw.pdf
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Mr Coggan! I will make sure to put a link to Peaksware in that case.


Free Indoor Cycling Software - https://maximumtrainer.com
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [MaximumTrainer] [ In reply to ]
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MaximumTrainer wrote:
Thanks Mr Coggan! I will make sure to put a link to Peaksware in that case.

You should probably check w/ an attorney to see whether that is sufficient. My understatinding is that TP has gotten far more pro-active in defending their IP rights.
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
MaximumTrainer wrote:
Thanks Mr Coggan! I will make sure to put a link to Peaksware in that case.


You should probably check w/ an attorney to see whether that is sufficient. My understatinding is that TP has gotten far more pro-active in defending their IP rights.

Good to see they are doing something - cause its not development :)
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [MaximumTrainer] [ In reply to ]
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That depends on each country...

Is your company US based? Otherwise you should check if those are registered in your (website/company) country
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [ddave] [ In reply to ]
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Can't trademark the formula, only the term. I strongly encourage everyone to purchase "Training With Power" to support those that devised it though.
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [MaximumTrainer] [ In reply to ]
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My guess is you can pay to use the terms.

"Base training is bull shit" - desertdude
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
TraininigPeaks (as Peaksware, I believe) holds the trademarks to those terms.

http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/...PARA1=&p_tagrepl~%3A=PARA1%24LD&expr=PARA1+AND+PARA2&p_s_PARA2=peaksware&p_tagrepl~%3A=PARA2%24OW&p_op_ALL=AND&a_default=search&a_search=Submit+Query&a_search=Submit+Query
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Oct 29, 14 6:48
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the comments all,

The company is Canada (Québec) based.
I already had the terms in the beta version, I used the formula there, I thought it was open to everyone :
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Normalized_Power_Formula_or_Calculator..._P3097774/
But anyway, I did put a reference on the website and software to Peaksware


Free Indoor Cycling Software - https://maximumtrainer.com
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [MaximumTrainer] [ In reply to ]
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you would think that they wouldn't have a problem with maximumtrainer using their formulas considering that maximumtrainer is free software that promotes cycling and accessibility to all. Also, I never knew it was possible to trademark a name for a mathematical formula. someone should trademark the pythagorean theorem.
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [fruity] [ In reply to ]
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From another thread... Let me know if you would like an introduction :)

gear_fisher wrote:
We do claim trademark for TSS, IF, NP (and others), and they are currently registered internationally. We are actively pursuing US registration. Meanwhile, Garmin, Saris, Trainer Road and several others have publicly acknowledged us as the trademark owner for those terms. We are happy to discuss the use of the terms with anyone, we claim no royalty, simply attribution. Even the next version of Golden Cheetah is using them with permission. The formula for TSS based on power is public knowledge, but it is held as trade secret on how we handle data-gaps and other specific circumstances when applying the formula. We also keep as trade secret the calculations of TSS based on other methods like heart-rate and pace.


-Gear
CEO, Peaksware
http://www.TrainingPeaks.com


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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rbuike wrote:
From another thread... Let me know if you would like an introduction :)

gear_fisher wrote:
We do claim trademark for TSS, IF, NP (and others), and they are currently registered internationally. We are actively pursuing US registration. Meanwhile, Garmin, Saris, Trainer Road and several others have publicly acknowledged us as the trademark owner for those terms. We are happy to discuss the use of the terms with anyone, we claim no royalty, simply attribution. Even the next version of Golden Cheetah is using them with permission. The formula for TSS based on power is public knowledge, but it is held as trade secret on how we handle data-gaps and other specific circumstances when applying the formula. We also keep as trade secret the calculations of TSS based on other methods like heart-rate and pace.

-Gear
CEO, Peaksware
http://www.TrainingPeaks.com

Ah I knew that I've seen somewhere that attribution was enough, thanks for sharing!
Let me know if the guys at Peaksware need to contact me for information or anything "max@maximumtrainer.com"


Free Indoor Cycling Software - https://maximumtrainer.com
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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If all Peaksware wants is attribution why didn't Strava use them? Strava made up their own metrics and it's totally annoying.
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [writhe] [ In reply to ]
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writhe wrote:
If all Peaksware wants is attribution why didn't Strava use them? Strava made up their own metrics and it's totally annoying.

Pure speculation (I am not a lawyer or a Strava or Peaksware employee) but...

- Strava maybe using a modified formula
- They are a direct competitor with a for fee product (GC, Garmin and others are free)
- They don't know, don't care to license
- Strava may have decided to use new terms as a differentiator (i.e. everyone uses TSS/NP/IF but ours is better)


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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rbuike wrote:
Pure speculation (I am not a lawyer or a Strava or Peaksware employee) but...

- Strava maybe using a modified formula
- They are a direct competitor with a for fee product (GC, Garmin and others are free)
- They don't know, don't care to license
- Strava may have decided to use new terms as a differentiator (i.e. everyone uses TSS/NP/IF but ours is better)

You may be right but it's still annoying!
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [writhe] [ In reply to ]
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writhe wrote:
rbuike wrote:
Pure speculation (I am not a lawyer or a Strava or Peaksware employee) but...

- Strava maybe using a modified formula
- They are a direct competitor with a for fee product (GC, Garmin and others are free)
- They don't know, don't care to license
- Strava may have decided to use new terms as a differentiator (i.e. everyone uses TSS/NP/IF but ours is better)


You may be right but it's still annoying!

So use TrainingPeaks ;)


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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rbuike wrote:
So use TrainingPeaks ;)

I do. But I also upload to Strava. I use TrainingPeaks for realz and Strava is just for fun. One thing that is cool about Strava is I can see how my time and/or power compares over time against a segment.
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [writhe] [ In reply to ]
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writhe wrote:
If all Peaksware wants is attribution why didn't Strava use them? Strava made up their own metrics and it's totally annoying.

Imitation is the sincerest form of thievery.
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
writhe wrote:
If all Peaksware wants is attribution why didn't Strava use them? Strava made up their own metrics and it's totally annoying.


Imitation is the sincerest form of thievery.

Not flattery?


Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | Strava
Classifieds FS | WTB
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [Jamaican] [ In reply to ]
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Jamaican wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
writhe wrote:
If all Peaksware wants is attribution why didn't Strava use them? Strava made up their own metrics and it's totally annoying.


Imitation is the sincerest form of thievery.


Not flattery?





Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | Strava
Classifieds FS | WTB
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [fruity] [ In reply to ]
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fruity wrote:
you would think that they wouldn't have a problem with maximumtrainer using their formulas considering that maximumtrainer is free software that promotes cycling and accessibility to all. Also, I never knew it was possible to trademark a name for a mathematical formula. someone should trademark the pythagorean theorem.


It's not possible to trademark or patent math, there's quite a bit of legal history on that.

Fwiw, I was introduced to and had a brief email exchange with Peaksware, and was greeted cordially about the usage of the terms, right up until I mentioned I intended to use them in a commercial context. I fully disclosed the project I was working on and the extent to which I planned to use the terms. I never heard back after that. I had the same experience with PhysFarm.

If you use Newton's law of universal gravitation, you could very well it 'GraviSmash!', and the consumer of your term can be informed that in fact, it's the same formula as used behind the law. I'd REALLY like it if Peaksware or Physfarm could jump in here and clear this all up. As fruity points out, attributing the terms to Peaksware or PhysFarm, etc does nothing to hurt their brand whatsoever, it does quite the opposite. Usage of trademark with attribution is advertising. Ideally I'd like to give the credit back to Coggan and Allen and encourage people to renumerate *them* through purchasing their book where TSS, IB, et al are introduced and discussed. That's putting the money where it belongs.
Last edited by: fisherman76: Oct 29, 14 11:01
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [fisherman76] [ In reply to ]
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The math isn't (and can't be) trademarked. The application of it can be. Abstract concept vs. practical application.

Quote:
"while an abstract idea, law of nature, or mathematical formula could not be patented, ‘an application of a law of nature or mathematical formula to a known structure or process may well be deserving of patent protection.’

Section II - B http://www.uspto.gov/.../pac/mpep/s2106.html


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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rbuike wrote:
The math isn't (and can't be) trademarked. The application of it can be. Abstract concept vs. practical application.

Quote:
"while an abstract idea, law of nature, or mathematical formula could not be patented, ‘an application of a law of nature or mathematical formula to a known structure or process may well be deserving of patent protection.’

Section II - B http://www.uspto.gov/.../pac/mpep/s2106.html

But it isn't patented. The terms are trademarked. The application of the math it is not patented either, and good luck trying to patent a computer program, it's pretty tough sledding.
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [fisherman76] [ In reply to ]
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Everyday I come across a situation or a conversation that has me thinking I should have been a lawyer :)


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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rbuike wrote:
Everyday I come across a situation or a conversation that has me thinking I should have been a lawyer :)

you and i both, Rodney.
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [fisherman76] [ In reply to ]
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All right, fair warning, I am an IP attorney and work with patents and trademarks for a living.

In a prior firm, I worked with a health care client that was very active in protecting their R&D work by patent and trademark. In doing so, they were not trying to keep everyone from using the methodologies or the terminology. They, like TP it sounds like, wanted to make sure that everyone used them consistently, so that data derived from one facility might be compared directly to data from another facility. By increasing the number of people using the methods and terms, the base of results that might be used for analysis and further improvement to the health care industry.

I am speculating here but TP might be doing the same thing here. The more people use the methods of computation and the terms that refer to these methods, the greater the mass of data available that is generally consistent so that we can then use this mass of data to refine and improve the measurements and the quality of the analysis that we do based on these measurements to predict future performance and refine training methodologies.

For TP, the more people who use the terms and formulas, the greater the level of education in the pool of potential customers for their services. They do not have to convince these potential customers that these are the right formulas, only that TP offers the best pay service and the best tools for compiling and analyzing the data. TP was already noted as having proprietary data polling and harmonization tools and I would guess the argument is that TO is able to more accurately determine the work done because our tools are better, even if others are applying the same formulas. And since TP offers the best tools for gathering computing, that TP may also be the best pay service to go to for training advice.

Anyhow, long way of saying this is not an unheardof approach and it is one that makes a lot of sense from a strategic marketing point of view.

Alan Stewart
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [WIAlan] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the well informed view. Question then, what recourse would your client have should someone use a trademarked term
1) without expressed permission but,
2) with proper attribution and,
3) using the proper underlying methods.

In other words, is doing what the original posted proposed sufficient, or could it be the target of some sort of legal action?

I recognize I am not securing legal advice per se, and I would hope others would understand this would just be your opinion and not to be confused with anything else.
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [fisherman76] [ In reply to ]
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fisherman76 wrote:
Thanks for the well informed view. Question then, what recourse would your client have should someone use a trademarked term
1) without expressed permission but,
2) with proper attribution and,
3) using the proper underlying methods.

In other words, is doing what the original posted proposed sufficient, or could it be the target of some sort of legal action?

I recognize I am not securing legal advice per se, and I would hope others would understand this would just be your opinion and not to be confused with anything else.

So you got Gear's reply this morning? Here's another way of thinking; Strava (who just acquired $18.5 million in VC funding) and Garmin thought it best to create their own terms. In other words is it worth the headache?

I am not a lawyer, I am not speaking for TP or Strava or Garmin or anyone. I am batting .500 when it comes to helping people get permission though ;) I wish I could have helped more.


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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Garmin created their own terms? Is this new?
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
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I should clarify. They use TSS/NP/IF for cycling but they don't use the run, swim, HR based versions (rTSS, hrTSS, sTSS).


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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Ah got you. Thanks.
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [ In reply to ]
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thank goodness i've found a way to make my training, simplified.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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rbuike wrote:

So you got Gear's reply this morning? Here's another way of thinking; Strava (who just acquired $18.5 million in VC funding) and Garmin thought it best to create their own terms. In other words is it worth the headache?

I am not a lawyer, I am not speaking for TP or Strava or Garmin or anyone. I am batting .500 when it comes to helping people get permission though ;) I wish I could have helped more.


Wow, very Renfield of you. Actually, I wrote what I did above *before* you ran off and asked Gear to respond, as I was assuming I wouldn't hear from him. Yes, he did respond yesterday, but it's very much irrelevant, I'm just curious at this point. If you think Strava secured extra funding to go to battle with Peaksware so they could use their terms, that's...unfortunate. Again, the math isn't legally protected and can't be. I do appreciate your time in connecting me with Peaksware in the first place.
Strava calls NP Weighted Average Power (which makes more sense anyway), TSS Training Load (again, easy to understand) and IF Intensity. There's no reason anyone else ought not to do the same. If they were my trademarks, I'd *demand* that NP, TSS, and IF were used - I'd get free advertising on my competitor's product. As a friend pointed out recently, these terms are not science, they are merely ways to try (TRY! It's NOT SCIENCE) and approximate how much work is being done cycling and gauge recovery/progress. By using those terms, one endorses them as being more reliable than any alternative. By not using them, one inadvertently casts aspersions on them.
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [rbuike] [ In reply to ]
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rbuike wrote:
I should clarify. They use TSS/NP/IF for cycling but they don't use the run, swim, HR based versions (rTSS, hrTSS, sTSS).

Is that because they are meaningless metrics? much more so that TSS even.
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [fisherman76] [ In reply to ]
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No we were chatting about another thing earlier in the day and he said he forgot to get back to you, I assumed at that point he did.


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [ddave] [ In reply to ]
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That's a conversation between you and people much smarter than I am :)


Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [ddave] [ In reply to ]
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ddave wrote:
rbuike wrote:
I should clarify. They use TSS/NP/IF for cycling but they don't use the run, swim, HR based versions (rTSS, hrTSS, sTSS).


Is that because they are meaningless metrics? much more so that TSS even.

winner winner chicken dinner
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Re: NP, IF, TSS - registered trademarks? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
MaximumTrainer wrote:
Thanks Mr Coggan! I will make sure to put a link to Peaksware in that case.


You should probably check w/ an attorney to see whether that is sufficient. My understatinding is that TP has gotten far more pro-active in defending their IP rights.
I'm not an attorney and will say that people can sue or object to anything.


That said, the purpose of trademark law is to avoid confusion in the marketplace. If you're writing about something and the consumer/reader could be confused about the source of the terms, or where to obtain the products/services those terms describe -- and particularly thinks you might be the place to go - then there is a problem.


If you're using the terms in a way that is clear that were consumers/readers can go to get the products/services those terms describe, then there is no real problem. Though again, TP could object anyway.


http://www.jt10000.com/
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