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Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes
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http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/...e3-b586-d4ae528ed502
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [vancity] [ In reply to ]
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16:45 cutoff for age groupers in 2015. WTC sometimes just doesn't know when to lwave things alone.

And there should be equal Kona slots for female pros at Kona and the 70.3 IMO. Personally I far prefer following the women pros here than the men. Just my two bits worth.


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The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [vancity] [ In reply to ]
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rules for usage of social media.

rules for mandatory "volunteering"

these better be paid assignments

Eric Reid
AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio Coaching and Bike Fitting
Chapel Hill, NC
Aerodynamic Optimized Bike Fitting, Retul Pre-Purchase Bike Fitting, USAT Level 1 Triathlon Coaching, Nutrition
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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So they want all the athletes to stfu and fall in line? 10-4 WTC!

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I mean, that's the message that's coming across, but I'm sure that's not the message they want us to receive. their communications department is SO cocked up.

Eric Reid
AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio Coaching and Bike Fitting
Chapel Hill, NC
Aerodynamic Optimized Bike Fitting, Retul Pre-Purchase Bike Fitting, USAT Level 1 Triathlon Coaching, Nutrition
Ask me: Scody Optimized Speed Suits | CeramicSpeed Oversized Pulley Systems | HUUB Skinsuits and Wetsuits | Bombshell Aerodynamic BMX Wheels
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
So they want all the athletes to stfu and fall in line? 10-4 WTC!




Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | Strava
Classifieds FS | WTB
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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We are prepared to engage in a vibrant dialog about professional racing with you and your fellow professional athletes, but the dialog cannot take place publicly. = you may file your concerns directly in the circular file folder or send us a written copy and Jordan will do it on your behalf
Last edited by: npage148: Sep 25, 14 19:51
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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I really like them trying to help the pros, I just kinda had to shrug at the idea of them censoring what the pros will say on twitter.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [vancity] [ In reply to ]
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Best line- "I want to mention the absence of live online coverage for the Subaru IRONMAN 70.3 World Championship -- our lack of a hosted live show was a mistake, one for which I accept responsibility."
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [vancity] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure why he didn't address it "Dear Minions".
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [vancity] [ In reply to ]
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So how exactly do they expect their pro athletes to "volunteer"? Most are barely getting by as it is- are they going to pay them for their travel expenses and time (not likely as they are independent contractors). And increasing the separation at Kona by cutting down the time AGs have to finish- that will go over well... And the media blackout- the pros do have friends and those friends will find out what's going on behind the scenes and then make a much bigger deal of things. WTC is just clueless as usual- can we please go back to the days when that eye doctor owned it??
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [vancity] [ In reply to ]
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So much for not making the discussions public!
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [vancity] [ In reply to ]
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As such, we are implementing a revised code of conduct for professional athletes that particularly relates to social media. Our revised social media policy is designed to increase the professionalism of our public discourse on matters relating to our sport.

You mean like this?

Also, congrats on putting the 70.3 World Champs on a platform available to 78 million Americans. Wanna know a platform that is available to 268 million Americans? The Internet.

Good luck to all the pro triathletes out there. I feel you're going to need it.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [OkotoksLawyer] [ In reply to ]
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Saw lots of stuff on twitter by pros about how shit the coverage of IM70.3 Worlds was. Why are they so scared about people speaking their mind?

Ironman really needs to take some lessons from the ITU on good coverage.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Censorship is no good. Part of what I enjoy about triathlon, from the pros at least, is that they say what they want. Aside from a few at the top that are pretty much walking billboards, who I'm convinced pay people to do their social media, triathletes are just average joes on twitter. Censoring them like "major sports" (NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA) is going to make the professional triathlete boring and not worth following.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [OkotoksLawyer] [ In reply to ]
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OkotoksLawyer wrote:
Quote:
As such, we are implementing a revised code of conduct for professional athletes that particularly relates to social media. Our revised social media policy is designed to increase the professionalism of our public discourse on matters relating to our sport.


You mean like this?

Also, congrats on putting the 70.3 World Champs on a platform available to 78 million Americans. Wanna know a platform that is available to 268 million Americans? The Internet.

Good luck to all the pro triathletes out there. I feel you're going to need it.

Also, in case no one noticed, it actually says WORLD Champs. It may be an American race held in the 51st state of America but, ironically for a World Champs, there are other people around the world interested in watching. Hell, we may even have family and friends racing in it.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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fulla wrote:
Saw lots of stuff on twitter by pros about how shit the coverage of IM70.3 Worlds was. Why are they so scared about people speaking their mind?

Ironman really needs to take some lessons from the ITU on good coverage.

They've been taking notes from ESPN, evidently. #FreeSimmons

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [rjrankin83] [ In reply to ]
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rjrankin83 wrote:
Censorship is no good. Part of what I enjoy about triathlon, from the pros at least, is that they say what they want. Aside from a few at the top that are pretty much walking billboards, who I'm convinced pay people to do their social media, triathletes are just average joes on twitter. Censoring them like "major sports" (NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA) is going to make the professional triathlete boring and not worth following.

I don't like censoring and I don't want boring athletes to follow. But let's look at another angle. WTC is the customer of many pro athletes. They provide a service by racing and then they get paid with prize money. It's not that indifferent than an actor in a movie. WTC produces the show. In our professional lives many of us get revenue from customer organizations. At times our customers and their organizations act totally in their self interest and may not seem to treat us like partners in their success. But given that my lifeline is tied to my customer's success and what I can get out of them, there is an unwritten professional code of conduct that goes along the line of not biting the hand that feeds me. I have to find other ways of getting my customer to change business models or behaviors towards me/my team without publicly berating the customer organization and throwing it under the bus. It is not really that tough. A lot of young people in all walks of life figure it out. There are ways to get change done, and it has been done for ages before social media existed where one can trip over themselves firing out grievances in haste over social media. My only guidance to pros is to use a formal channel, and do it directly with real time 2 way communication with Andrew. I can say that he/WTC will listen and collaborate if you work constructively. If they listen to a nobody age grouper like myself off whom they make not that much money other than the entry fees I give them, surely they would be incented to collaborate with star pros whose services they package up and multiply for a ton more revenue.

As for the 16:45 cut off in Kona, I think the integrity of the women's race is more important than the whether some of us age groupers can finish in 17 or 16:45. I think this affects 5-10 older athletes versus the pro women's competition. Perhaps a provision could be made for athletes over 70 to start right after pro women and each of them can have a kayak escort BEHIND them so that it is impossible to swim over them. Then it is win win for all!
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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What's funny about all of this, I wonder just how real all the drama/media that TRS/twitter created over WTC's prize purse policies, went into all of this.
ETA: Dev, you cant talk out of both sides of your mouth. If you want the pros to go through the proper channels, than be ok with "boring" athletes and essentially censorship. What you say is pretty damn accurate, but by doing as you suggest, yes you saying censorship is the way to go.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Sep 25, 14 22:09
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [vancity] [ In reply to ]
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I thought WTC was just out to destroy Ironman as a pro sport. But with changing the age-group cutoff to 16:45, I realized that they're just dumb.

Roger Godell is the most competent CEO in America when compared with this guy.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
What's funny about all of this, I wonder just how real all the drama/media that TRS/twitter created over WTC's prize purse policies, went into all of this.
ETA: Dev, you cant talk out of both sides of your mouth. If you want the pros to go through the proper channels, than be ok with "boring" athletes and essentially censorship. What you say is pretty damn accurate, but by doing as you suggest, yes you saying censorship is the way to go.

It is censorship only if you are forced to live under a regime (like Soviet government or Chinese government). No one is forcing anyone to do WTC's races, but if you want to play with them, then you have to pick and choose your battles.

For example no one is forcing me to say nice things about my customers, but no one is forcing me to do business with them either. If I don't like how they operate, I can stop taking their money, but if I want to take their money and if I say something publicly they don't like and they ask me to keep that between us, I can chose to comply and keep taking their money, or speak my mind and move on. It is a free and open market. No one is forcing anyone to do business with anyone, but if you don't like the terms of engagements, you can be as vocal as you want and speak publicly and move on, or if you think there is upside in the engagement, you keep working together and the things you don't like you work to influence person to person.

It is only censorship if you have no other choice and are locked in. There are plenty of choices outside WTC...Challenge obviously comes to mind.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Trirunner] [ In reply to ]
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Trirunner wrote:
So much for not making the discussions public!

Yeah....I probably would have removed my name from the bottom of that document before posting also.




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Searching for the bliss of ultimate exertion.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:

As for the 16:45 cut off in Kona, I think the integrity of the women's race is more important than the whether some of us age groupers can finish in 17 or 16:45. I think this affects 5-10 older athletes versus the pro women's competition. Perhaps a provision could be made for athletes over 70 to start right after pro women and each of them can have a kayak escort BEHIND them so that it is impossible to swim over them. Then it is win win for all!

How about if WTC just take their race and leave town instead.


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The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"
Last edited by: KonaCoffee: Sep 25, 14 23:33
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Jordan45] [ In reply to ]
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There are already races that have cut offs less than 17 hours (16:30 at Mallorca for instance).
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:

As for the 16:45 cut off in Kona, I think the integrity of the women's race is more important than the whether some of us age groupers can finish in 17 or 16:45. I think this affects 5-10 older athletes versus the pro women's competition. Perhaps a provision could be made for athletes over 70 to start right after pro women and each of them can have a kayak escort BEHIND them so that it is impossible to swim over them. Then it is win win for all!

This has nothing to do with "the integrity of the women's race." The pro women had a 25-minute start on the age groupers for years, and it never affected the cut-off times. This is a result of splitting the male and female AG starts, which as we've already discussed was done so WTC could stuff more age groupers into the race and make more money. Make it a mass AG start again, and the cut-off could still be 17:00.

As for the rest of that email, it was one of the most tone deaf communications I've ever read.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
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KonaCoffee wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:


As for the 16:45 cut off in Kona, I think the integrity of the women's race is more important than the whether some of us age groupers can finish in 17 or 16:45. I think this affects 5-10 older athletes versus the pro women's competition. Perhaps a provision could be made for athletes over 70 to start right after pro women and each of them can have a kayak escort BEHIND them so that it is impossible to swim over them. Then it is win win for all!


How about if WTC just take their race and leave town instead.

Well they did that to Oahu, 30 years ago and moved to Kona, , so I guess now you could kick them out of town and go elsewhere, and bring Challenge in to run the show. That might actually be a greater test of what athletes care about. I think in this case, most would do the Challenge race in Kona vs say the WTC Ironman race in Maui or back in Oahu.

Seriously though are you more bothered by the 17 hour cut off at Kona becoming 16:45 (they just said cut off at Kona, not at every IM), or would you like to see the pro women get a fair race. Personally I care more about the pro women's race than the race to beat the cut off, but I guess that is just me. I'd rather that the women's race not be diluted just to accommodate 5-10 people at the end of the race. I think they can be accommodated another way (as I suggested) without messing up the pro women's race. That's my 2 cents as a fan, who will be among the couple of 100,000 tuning into the pro race in 2 weeks, but will be fast asleep for the cut off.

I don't really get the animosity towards going from that position to wanting to kick them out of town, but i am not local and like most local locations, we the athletes tend to only see and care about what happens on race week. I am sure there are many frustrations outside of that week that you need to contend with that we don't see, so perhaps providing visibility into how WTC and us are screwing all that up, might be enlightening and make us all behave better when we are around.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [craigj532] [ In reply to ]
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OK, if it is about splitting the men and women and ACTUALLY HAVING MORE KONA SLOTS EVERY YEAR SO MORE OF US GET TO RACE THERE, no please make the race smaller. Less people should race Kona, WTC should make less money and it should stay more exclusive for the cool ultra fast genetically blessed people only. We definitely don't want MORE people to have a chance to race Kona...HELL NO. Let's shrink the kona race back down to 900 people or so like 1988 so less people per year have greater bragging rights

Pink font for the above entirely optional.

I should be one of the people wanting less people to race Kona because I have had the chance to race there multiple times, but I actually want more people to have a chance to race there and realize that lifetime goal. If WTC makes more money in the process and more people are happy because they have a chance to race Kona (or a better shot at the road to Kona because a race has 50 KQ slots instead of 30) that is not an entirely bad thing.

The split starts are just two mass starts and each exceeds the mass starts of the past, so you still have the full mass start feel anyway.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [vancity] [ In reply to ]
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You want a sport that will become watchable and palatable to the masses you will have to provide a unified front. You want to be able to do what ever you want (social media, sponsors, races, etc) do not expect to get paid. WTC has to put together some kind of marketing campaign to build a TV/internet presence that is sustainable with marketing that will bring revenue for the athletes. The money that the AG athletes pay furthers the Ironman Machine and builds the events and locations but I dont believe it is sustainable to pay big money to athletes for all races.

I cant think of many profitable sports that don't have some sort of code of conduct for the use of social media and messaging. I think that is the intent of this message regarding social media posting.

If you are a NFL player and post some comments that are not inline with the NFL way of thinking, or openly criticize the NFL, be prepared to pay. NFL players are restricted from using social media 90 minutes before a game until after their post game media obligations. This is to ensure that people will watch ESPN and other programs to get the information, which in turn broadcasts commercials bringing in money that trickles down to players.

NBA fines players for their comments whether on social media or not if it is detrimental to the league. Does WTC fine athletes for talking about drafting or lack of refs?
Shoot, Nascar fines their drivers for social media comments.

I am sure there are some examples of sports that have no social media restrictions but generally if you are trying to get advertising and TV time there will be an agreement to give some exclusiveness to the networks in order to get $$$.

If the professional athletes make disparaging comments regarding the lead company it may cause others to have a lack of interest in it. "Well if Pro XXX thinks that WTC is messed up and event XX was trash, why am I going to do it? Why would I watch it on TV?"

Will full distance races ever become a weekly TV show... probably not.
Could you set up a series of 70.3 races that are more competitive (enticing locations) and broadcast them... probably.
If you have a series of 4-8 races that build to a WC, it could build enough interest in 2-3 years that live coverage (TV) could be tolerable.... people watch cars drive in a circle for 3+ hours... why not triathlon?
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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The 16:45 change actually is nothing more than a stupid solution to a non-existent problem which has beome rather typical of WTC under its current management.

But since you asked here you ho:

They've over stayed their welcome by many years. They take resources from our community and expect to be thanked.

They get special priveleges in conducting their for profit business on our state owned pier and state owned ocean. Guess what? That's not allowed! No other organization charging any fee for any reason whatsoever is allowed to use our pier or state beach access to the ocean unless they're boating related businesses with a permit. That includes all the tri camps, all the swim clinics, local triathlon clubs, and other for profit but smaller races -- all of them. Only WTC Gets away with this. It's been enforced against everyone except WTC. Enforce it against them as well. Or ate they just special and entitled like their athletes of late?

They seriously restrict travel over a large swath of our island on race day. In some places for well over 24 hours.

Their customers have become increasingly rude to locals over the last 5 years in particular.. They run red lights on their bycycles, they don't bother to stop at stop signs, they do more than encroach on the traffic lanes -- they flat out ride in large groups well inside traffic lanes. Somebody is s going to get killed and my sympathy is almost certainly going to be with the hapless driver.

And it's not just bikers. Every year I see numerous instances of runners stopping traffic during rush hour so they don't have to stop and wait for the walk sign during their runs. It's beyond ignorance, it intentional. Never ever see that outside of this time of the year.

WTC pays lip service to the safety issues. And it gets worse every year.

And then there's the travesty of how locals can't even race in the only long course triathlon here without going into the lottery. Big Island residents used to at least be able to compete for our slots. That was taken away as well. Now we get to put our names in a hat instead.

And every year the locals have to put up with way too many of the 1800+ athletes telling us how we ought to do things in Hawaii. And almost none of them have the slightest respect for the host culture.

Then there's the way you could say WTC treated a nice little 70.3 race out here by not just eliminating any pro purse for a June race but eliminating all 70.3 Championship points for the pros.

WTC behaves as if this is their company town. It's not, it's ours. The people that live here own it. I used to say that the town was split in 3s regarding this race. 1/3 wanted it in town, 1/3 wanted it to leave and 1/3 doesn't care. Only that last third hasn't changed. I know few people, including triathletes, who want it to stay now. Most now would send Itonman packing given the chance.


That's the short list.


---------------------------------------------------------
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [grindmonkey] [ In reply to ]
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You really don't understand the WTC/athlete relationship. Your comparisons to other sports leagues are flat out wrong.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Ellsworth53T] [ In reply to ]
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Well thought out response.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Ellsworth53T] [ In reply to ]
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Ellsworth53T wrote:
You really don't understand the WTC/athlete relationship. Your comparisons to other sports leagues are flat out wrong.

It is quite different indeed. Those leagues and their respective teams have cleardefined paths of paying the athletes. Contracts. Players unions. Not perfect, but even the neopro NBA pointguard is paid well by any standard.

It would be similar if NFL linebackers would play AFL/European league games to get paid enough to support their family. I think we would see much more critical quarterbacks on twitter if that were so.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [grindmonkey] [ In reply to ]
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The athletes are under contract in those leagues and the leagues provide a living wage for the athlete. The triathletes, as far as im aware, are not under any sort of contract with WTC, and WTC certainly doesn't provide a guaranteed wage.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [grindmonkey] [ In reply to ]
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My school district has a code of conduct for how it's staff can/ can't behave on social media. Violations can results in termination. My guess is that most professional positions have similar stipulations in their terms for employment. I'm not sure why anyone expects pro triathletes to have a free pass.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
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Not to make less of the frustration you and the community feel, but it seems as if a lot of the issues you have - probably 45% to 65% are with people being assholes, and not WTC, some are valid, and I won't claim to understand some of them, others are just part and parcel of being a destination - How do you think folks in Cancun or Riviera Maya feel about "American" tourists on the inside? Other statements aren't just "you" - like your statement about the 70.3 - how do you feel a community like Madison feels about having IMWI stripped of points and prize money? Lake Placid? Panama City?

Quote:
Their customers have become increasingly rude to locals over the last 5 years in particular.. They run red lights on their bycycles, they don't bother to stop at stop signs, they do more than encroach on the traffic lanes -- they flat out ride in large groups well inside traffic lanes. Somebody is s going to get killed and my sympathy is almost certainly going to be with the hapless driver.

Work the political process to get the police to enforce rules of the road on shitty bicyclists more heavily.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
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KonaCoffee wrote:
The 16:45 change actually is nothing more than a stupid solution to a non-existent problem which has beome rather typical of WTC under its current management.

But since you asked here you ho:

They've over stayed their welcome by many years. They take resources from our community and expect to be thanked.

They get special priveleges in conducting their for profit business on our state owned pier and state owned ocean. Guess what? That's not allowed! No other organization charging any fee for any reason whatsoever is allowed to use our pier or state beach access to the ocean unless they're boating related businesses with a permit. That includes all the tri camps, all the swim clinics, local triathlon clubs, and other for profit but smaller races -- all of them. Only WTC Gets away with this. It's been enforced against everyone except WTC. Enforce it against them as well. Or ate they just special and entitled like their athletes of late?

They seriously restrict travel over a large swath of our island on race day. In some places for well over 24 hours.

Their customers have become increasingly rude to locals over the last 5 years in particular.. They run red lights on their bycycles, they don't bother to stop at stop signs, they do more than encroach on the traffic lanes -- they flat out ride in large groups well inside traffic lanes. Somebody is s going to get killed and my sympathy is almost certainly going to be with the hapless driver.

And it's not just bikers. Every year I see numerous instances of runners stopping traffic during rush hour so they don't have to stop and wait for the walk sign during their runs. It's beyond ignorance, it intentional. Never ever see that outside of this time of the year.

WTC pays lip service to the safety issues. And it gets worse every year.

And then there's the travesty of how locals can't even race in the only long course triathlon here without going into the lottery. Big Island residents used to at least be able to compete for our slots. That was taken away as well. Now we get to put our names in a hat instead.

And every year the locals have to put up with way too many of the 1800+ athletes telling us how we ought to do things in Hawaii. And almost none of them have the slightest respect for the host culture.

Then there's the way you could say WTC treated a nice little 70.3 race out here by not just eliminating any pro purse for a June race but eliminating all 70.3 Championship points for the pros.

WTC behaves as if this is their company town. It's not, it's ours. The people that live here own it. I used to say that the town was split in 3s regarding this race. 1/3 wanted it in town, 1/3 wanted it to leave and 1/3 doesn't care. Only that last third hasn't changed. I know few people, including triathletes, who want it to stay now. Most now would send Itonman packing given the chance.


That's the short list.


Thanks for your response. I have no doubt it's heartfelt. My question is that this seems quite similar to what I have heard from lake placid locals... Almost to the tee. Yet, they keep re-upping. The impact on the lake placid economy for the ironman is pretty big, and not just on the race week, but the training months before and after as well. It sounds like Kona has a better economy in place and is less reliant on the race income, correct?

Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Last edited by: Fred D: Sep 26, 14 3:58
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
My school district has a code of conduct for how it's staff can/ can't behave on social media. Violations can results in termination. My guess is that most professional positions have similar stipulations in their terms for employment. I'm not sure why anyone expects pro triathletes to have a free pass.

I think we have differing definitions of what entails "employement".
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [lostinT2] [ In reply to ]
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"There are already races that have cut offs less than 17 hours (16:30 at Mallorca for instance). "
--------------------
15 in Roth, and they seem to be doing OK.

On the other hand, as I now go into 55-59 and I feel the precipitous slide, at some point I may lobby for 19!

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
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"And almost none of them have the slightest respect for the host culture. "
-----------------

You certainly have a different perspective than most of us and we appreciate your insight. However, I think you are lumping everyone in with the bad apples. I have raced there a number of times over the past 24 years, and while some things have changed, in many ways it is still the same.

The folks I have been with and around have HUGE respect for the locals, their culture, and the community. I feel I give back to them and try hard to let them know we appreciate them hosting the event. And, they in return treat us wonderfully. I have always had a good experience and can't even think of a bad experience/conversation I have had with any locals there.


Anyway, thanks for the local insight. I will always try to be a good ambassador when I visit.

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [JV99] [ In reply to ]
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JV99 wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
My school district has a code of conduct for how it's staff can/ can't behave on social media. Violations can results in termination. My guess is that most professional positions have similar stipulations in their terms for employment. I'm not sure why anyone expects pro triathletes to have a free pass.


I think we have differing definitions of what entails "employement".

Possibly. However, if I'm racing as a pro and expect that the organization is going to give me money, I should probably do my best to build up the organization. Even if I don't get any money right now but hope to get money in the future. It's in my best interest to publicly help the organization be as good as possible. If there are problems, it won't do me any good to bash the organization on social media.






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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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i think those professions also provide a lot more benefits to their members/ employees than WTC does for their professional triathletes. Minimum wage? Working conditions? Equality? I think it's more like WTC getting a free pass to do what they want don't you think?
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Just wait until you get older. These 5 to 10 impacted folks might be you.

.

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Just wait until you get older. These 5 to 10 impacted folks might be you. .


That's a fair point to make - those most directly affected by the time shift will be older folks who got in via lottery. We can debate the merits as to whether or not it is fair to this select group of people or not (vs the M25-29 KQ crowd, or whatever), but at the end of the day WTC is free to make these sorts of policy decisions for the betterment of their race. Is changing the start times so that 35 FPro's can have an unimpeded start going to offset 10 AG's worth it? I suspect it might be. But it's a localized time change at a WC event - not an across the board change.

Sometimes these types of changes work the other way. A good analogue would be the new Boston Marathon Qualifying times. How many of us got upset because they dropped the times by 5 minutes across the board? Thus benefiting the older crowd and women, for whom the BQ decreased as a lower % of overall time. As an M30-34 I need to be faster by 2.7%, whereas the time for F60-65 its only 1.8%. Meh. If being a 'Kona finisher' means I now have to complete the course in 16:45 so be it.

Us young folk can also make the argument that the way Kona slots are allocated unfairly benefits older athletes and women, so I don't think its that big a deal...
Last edited by: timbasile: Sep 26, 14 5:05
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the perspective from the local community. I personally promise to respect the sacrifices the local community makes to host the race. I'm truly grateful for the opportunity to participate in your race (WTC owns the rights to the race, but Hawaii owns the spirit of the race.)

But let's not forget the $$$$ we bring. Man it ain't cheap! (Ofcourse a big chunk is going to a house owner who lives in California, not Hawaii....)
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Just wait until you get older. These 5 to 10 impacted folks might be you.


.


The 80+ mens group in 2011 may have been the most exciting and close age-group race in Kona. These guys were racing neck and neck until the very end.

Men 80 & Over Awards
Place Bla Time Numb Lname Fname Cnt Rep Swim Tr1 Bike Tr2 Run
===== === ======== ==== ========================== === === ======= ======= ======== ======= ========
1 16:45:55 181 Hollander, Lew USA USA 1:57:44 8:59 7:36:31 6:00 6:56:43
2 16:50:43 156 Cokan, France USA SLO 2:08:16 8:56 7:42:22 10:24 6:40:47
3 16:51:30 155 Roberts, Lyle USA USA 1:57:28 6:34 8:03:18 7:03 6:37:10
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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Everyone wants everything. Have WTC pony up larger purses, provide TV/Internet coverage, and allow athletes to say whatever they want about the company that would be providing them a paycheck. He has a point.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kcb203] [ In reply to ]
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wow, none of them would officially finish under the 16:45 rule. i didnt realize that. this makes that 15 minutes a bigger deal to me when previously i had shrugged it off. thats effectively eliminating that age group and presumable the women's as well.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for sharing those thoughts, Albert.

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
JV99 wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
My school district has a code of conduct for how it's staff can/ can't behave on social media. Violations can results in termination. My guess is that most professional positions have similar stipulations in their terms for employment. I'm not sure why anyone expects pro triathletes to have a free pass.


I think we have differing definitions of what entails "employement".


Possibly. However, if I'm racing as a pro and expect that the organization is going to give me money, I should probably do my best to build up the organization. Even if I don't get any money right now but hope to get money in the future. It's in my best interest to publicly help the organization be as good as possible. If there are problems, it won't do me any good to bash the organization on social media.


All WTC offers pros is a prize purse at it's events. They may be the biggest and largest, but that's all they have to offer. Unlike NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB, and virtually all other professional sports, WTC does not own the pros. They are not under contract. WTC does not pay them a salary. WTC does nothing more than pay a prize purse to those who happen to win, just like many other triathlon events around the globe. WTC's use of "our professional athletes" throughout that communication is embarrassing, as if WTC somehow controls these independent contractors. The sense of entitlement mind-blowing. If WTC wants to own the pros, they should pay them a salary rather than do the opposite: charge the pros an annual fee to participate in their events with the chance of winning cash awards.
Last edited by: kny: Sep 26, 14 5:41
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kny] [ In reply to ]
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I hear what you are saying and I'm not a big fan of the amounts of prize money and the depth as to who gets paid (I think both should be significantly higher).

Now, let's imagine that everyone on the prize podium at Savageman, those that took home the cash, went on social media the very next day and started complaining about the race. Savageman sucks. It's not safe. People like jonahsdad almost died because of the negligence of the race director. Thank goodness Alyssa was there since the race did nothing to help him. Etc. Etc.

How motivated would Savageman be to continue to offer prize purses?

Now, I'm not for a moment trying to defend the WTC. I simply don't think this is purely a WTC issue. I'm of the opinion that professionals should behave as such, which includes not biting the hand that feeds (or could potentially feed) them. The biggest shame isn't the fact that the WTC is trying to raise the standards for professional behavior from the professional athletes, it's that the pros aren't doing it themselves. If you want the WTC to give out more cash, to have a minimum wage, to pay deeper, offer benefits, etc., you really need to set up a culture and environment that motivates them to do so. Bring sponsors to the race, not just yourself. Griping about the race and the organization isn't going to get you there.

The other question is: Why is this the WTC's responsibility to even broach the topic in the first place? OR, if the WTC shouldn't set such policies, such as social media behavior, then who should (and why haven't they)?






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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I think in this case, most would do the Challenge race in Kona vs say the WTC Ironman race in Maui or back in Oahu.

I'd bet everything I own on the opposite. Did you not learn anything from Penticton? People will follow the Ironman name. Don't be foolish.

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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I don't disagree. What strikes me is the sense of entitlement that WTC exudes over the pros, while simultaneously treating them like shit. The majority of pros who participate in a WTC event actually pay for the privilege as they recoup less than their annual fee.

Pros should behave professionally. They should have a more common front. It is certainly not WTC's responsibility to get them organized and establish codes of conduct. Frankly, the pros should create a player's union, like other professional sports have, that has this responsibility.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Ellsworth53T] [ In reply to ]
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Ellsworth53T wrote:
The athletes are under contract in those leagues and the leagues provide a living wage for the athlete. The triathletes, as far as im aware, are not under any sort of contract with WTC, and WTC certainly doesn't provide a guaranteed wage.

Bingo.

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
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KonaCoffee wrote:
WTC behaves as if this is their company town. It's not, it's ours. The people that live here own it. I used to say that the town was split in 3s regarding this race. 1/3 wanted it in town, 1/3 wanted it to leave and 1/3 doesn't care. Only that last third hasn't changed. I know few people, including triathletes, who want it to stay now. Most now would send Itonman packing given the chance.

I don't know the contractual arrangement WTC has made with your city govt, but, ya gotta wonder, what would be the impact on the IM brand if they had to hold their championship race somewhere else? What if Kona did indeed send WTC packing? Any idea why this hasn't happened yet?

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Jordan45] [ In reply to ]
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That's a bit harsh. Remember, WTC has essentially created this brand after its initial birth by others and is forging a new path. They are learning and will make mistakes, but for the most part they have done a superb job. They have made Ironman races a place a lot of folks want to be. The quality is generally very high. Kona and Mont-Tremblant are certainly two of the most professionally run sports events on the planet. (How about World Cup soccer in Dubai? Who came up with that brilliant idea?) They do listen, and this letter is a response. But, we should always expect these races to be evolving.

Personally, I think the pros are wage slaves to the system and only a handful make any money to speak of. And the work is EXTREME. I'd much rather watch Carfrae than some overweight footballer with a drug habit. Anyway, the pros need to be paid something commensurate with the work and training involved. I give the pros great credit for doing their part to build the sport. The sport is much better known today than 30 years ago and most of that is due to the Ironman brand. By way of example, I was in DC at a race and afterwards was walking through some of the monuments (WWII) and met a New Zealander. He knew all about the NZ triathletes! He spent 10 minutes filling me in, though I knew most of it. Incredible.

Although I have said my piece about water quality, wave separations and several other issues here, generally I give WTC very high marks.

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
Last edited by: Robert: Sep 26, 14 7:57
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [vancity] [ In reply to ]
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We also intend to do more with our live broadcasts of championship races in 2015 and are working to create a more compelling online product that will showcase our athletes and our championship races in a more meaningful way. I want to mention the absence of live online coverage for the Subaru IRONMAN 70.3 World Championship -- our lack of a hosted live show was a mistake, one for which I accept responsibility.

I want to hear more about this part. The lack of live coverage was obviously a calculated move--it's not something he "just forgot about." Along with the twitter censorship, it all seems like an attempt to limit the exposure of individual pros.

In other words, no one can express their own personal image, and everything must be filtered through the carefully groomed image of ironman. Filtered through the rebroadcast editing, filtered through the corporate twitter, etc. WTC is attempting to get all sponsorship dollars directed to the ironman brand, and then wtc can dole out "rewards" to the boys and girls who play along nicely with corporate.

It's another attempt to monopolize the market. Before it was sucking up all competing races. Now it's trying to take all sponsorship dollars from individual athletes.




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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [grindmonkey] [ In reply to ]
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grindmonkey wrote:
... people watch cars drive in a circle for 3+ hours... why not triathlon?

in Nascar you have crashes and then safety laps that brings everyone back together again, which creates excitement. That's not to say you couldn't still have an interesting series of 70.3 races and package each race into a 30 min show. Would the world champion be the one who wins the most points in that series, or do you still have a stand alone WC race? ITU, F1 etc have shown that the former is probably better/fairer.

In general I'm excited they are looking to get more TV coverage. I'm not sure it will ever get massive viewing numbers, but if the UK Super Series (just 4 races) can be packaged up nicely and put on Universal as it has been this year, then surely there is a case for a 70.3 series.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Brilliant riposte!

Parks are there to be used by the public and this is a public use. Bikers and runners should have the use of the streets and sidewalks during Kona week at a minimum and certainly all year, IMHO. Cars are not what Kona is about, as far as I know. Yes, we can be a pain in the ass some times. But drivers are a pain in the ass all the time.

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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I would be willing to venture that 10% of the tourists in Kona every year are related to the IMWC. When you factor in fixed vs. variable expenses for a business. That's pretty huge. I think if you compare proportionally the development in Oahu, Kauai and Maui to normalize increases in tourism overall, to Kona over the same period starting when the raced moved there.... I suspect you'll see a clear step shift somewhere in there then a trend that otherwise follows a similar curve. I'd be willing to bet that the net impact from overall worldwide name recognition and marketing value, is probably a 20% bump in the overall economy. I think it's that large. But I'm not a economics or marketing expert.

However, I'm not saying that is necessarily a good thing. Sometimes remaining small is good. Living in a smaller community, I know that if our population for some reason, ever grew over about 20k again, I probably wouldn't want to live here. It would lose a lot of its character and charm and add a lot of traffic and congestion, that another nearby city of 30k+ lacks.


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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [JV99] [ In reply to ]
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JV99 wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
My school district has a code of conduct for how it's staff can/ can't behave on social media. Violations can results in termination. My guess is that most professional positions have similar stipulations in their terms for employment. I'm not sure why anyone expects pro triathletes to have a free pass.


I think we have differing definitions of what entails "employement".

What is employement? Sorry - just had to bust chops a bit.

You are correct. These people are not "employed" by WTC. WTC is a corporation that puts on events that people (pro or not) CHOOSE to participate in. If you want to be a Pro triathlete then WTC races are one of the few OPTIONS they have to earn their wage. If WTC puts in place social media guidelines for people who want to race as a pro under their code of conduct, then so be it. If you want to speak out on social media about WTC, fine. You aren't being censored. You have every right to do it. And WTC has every right to decide whether or not that person should continue to compete as a pro in their events. The Pro's apply for membership, are accepted in under this code of conduct, and if they misstep, then they are accountable for their actions (copied a section of the code of conduct below and bolded the relevant sections). Its similar to the people who work as independent contractors for me. I'll assign you to a project, but if you blasted my company on Facebook, twitter, etc you would never be contracted to another project for me again. Ever.

Also - they are providing an outlet for Pros to dissent with WTC. Contact Rappstar, or one of the other representatives (similar to having a union rep). If I recall correctly, there was a recent outburst on the twitters where a Female Pro called out Messick for an issue that the Pro reps had already been in contact with him with and they had resolved. The reality is, WTC is something the Pro triathletes need. And WTC needs the Pros to continue to build its brand. Its not that much to ask that they keep their comments in check and try to work it internally before taking it to social media. All of us AG'ers can continue to blast away about how screwed up the organization is.

http://www.ironman.com/...t.aspx#axzz3EMLOQI7B

The following are examples of unacceptable behavior by current IRONMAN Professional Members that will result in penalties.

I. Audible and visible displays of obscenity and anger.

  • Heated public disagreements with officials, negative comments to or about volunteers or any other event personnel during the staging of an event.
  • Displays of anger and displeasure for reasons personal or race related where members of the public (including athletes, spectators and the media) are present in any capacity.
  • Publicly questioning or criticizing a race official or official decision, ruling or penalty except through the accepted procedure in an official hearing or inquiry.



II. Abuse (physical, verbal, threatening or slanderous) of Race Officials, volunteers, fellow competitors and any event personnel.

  • Any intentional obstruction of a fellow athlete.
  • Improper contact or arguments with volunteers.
  • Improper or insulting personal communication with officials outside accepted channels of procedure.



III. Unprofessional public communications in person or via any media dialogue.

  • Slanderous comments with racial, cultural or sexual overtones regarding event officials, event personnel or fellow athletes.
  • Damaging and false commentary of an event and any related personnel.
  • Any public comment or discussion regarding a specific drafting or blocking penalty is a violation. Included are comments or discussion at the race venue or to the media.



IV. Blatant and repeated violations of event procedures.

  • Consistent untimely requests for event entries beyond posted deadlines.
  • Failure to attend pre- race mandatory briefing without notifying Pro Registration Department of inability to attend.
  • Failure to notify event or relevant departments of withdrawal from an event.



Sanctions
Athletes whose conduct is considered contrary to this Code is subject to penalties, including but not limited to one or more of the following:

  • Letter of reprimand.
  • Disqualification from event.
  • Loss of 500 earned qualifying points from any points ranking in which the Athlete is ranked.
  • Temporary suspension from WTC events—three months.
  • Permanent suspension from WTC events.


Originally from: http://www.ironman.com/...t.aspx#ixzz3EQcDK55P
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
GMAN19030 wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
I think in this case, most would do the Challenge race in Kona vs say the WTC Ironman race in Maui or back in Oahu.


I'd bet everything I own on the opposite. Did you not learn anything from Penticton? People will follow the Ironman name. Don't be foolish.


The argument could be made that you did not learn anything from Roth. If Kona wants to hold the race without WTC, Kona can, and could still call it the world championship, and could invite winners from IM races and Challenge/Rev races, and Hits races, and anyone from any races, and probably make a lot more money. Then, WTC would really be SOL because the allure of Ironman would be gone. In many ways Kona has a poison pill that could tremendously damage the IM brand.

Edit to add:
TBT, triathlon is a tiny, tiny business, just scraping by, so while Kona could, in theory get further into the triathlon business, and could in theory put the hurt on the WTC, the relationship as it stands is probably the best way forward. It doesn't seem hugely broken.
Last edited by: DamonHenry: Sep 26, 14 6:57
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
GMAN19030 wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
I think in this case, most would do the Challenge race in Kona vs say the WTC Ironman race in Maui or back in Oahu.


I'd bet everything I own on the opposite. Did you not learn anything from Penticton? People will follow the Ironman name. Don't be foolish.

We're reaching a tipping point, especially in North America.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
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This is an article on the economic effect that IM- Kona has on the local economy.

http://www.kpua.net/focus10132003.php

A Department of Business Economic Development and Tourism study concluded that $14.9 million is pumped in to the island economy over Ironman race dates. Utilizing known multiplier effects, that number mushrooms to more than $26 million in total sales resulting in $2.5 million in tax revenues alone...

--------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by: bhc: Sep 26, 14 6:53
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [bhc] [ In reply to ]
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Those numbers are 10 years old, so it's either gotten bigger or smaller, but it's unlikely still the same number.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
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Fred, the big difference between Kona and IMLP is that Lake Placid actually would suffer financially as they are a small "Winter" town that thrives during ski season. Summer was not a huge season for them before Ironman came into town and turned it into THE place to be for summertime fitness.

Kona is a tourist attraction even without Ironman and will survive just fine. That's a guess as the worl economy has changed a lot over the years and Ironman has been a factor for a lot of it, but I think Kona would do VERY well without Ironman. I don't think Lake Placid would do as well and would gradually be less of a summer town over the years. Yes, LP has other events, mostly with the major horse show in June/July and rowing, but the amount of athletes that go there to bike and run from May to July is staggering. If there is no IMLP, then Lake George NY becomes a better summer town to train in.

I will likely never make it to Kona to race IM, I would have liked to, but I am equally fascinated to go there for a family vacation, maybe even more so than racing there.

As for this new turn of corporate events, Dev is right, censorship sucks, but this isn't really censorship. This is the same as an employer asking that no one speaks out against the company without talking to the company rep first. If they still want to speak out against the company, go ahead, but you might not be working for the company anymore. There are other companies to go work for.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kcb203] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
kcb203 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Just wait until you get older. These 5 to 10 impacted folks might be you.


.


The 80+ mens group in 2011 may have been the most exciting and close age-group race in Kona. These guys were racing neck and neck until the very end.

Men 80 & Over Awards
Place Bla Time Numb Lname Fname Cnt Rep Swim Tr1 Bike Tr2 Run
===== === ======== ==== ========================== === === ======= ======= ======== ======= ========
1 16:45:55 181 Hollander, Lew USA USA 1:57:44 8:59 7:36:31 6:00 6:56:43
2 16:50:43 156 Cokan, France USA SLO 2:08:16 8:56 7:42:22 10:24 6:40:47
3 16:51:30 155 Roberts, Lyle USA USA 1:57:28 6:34 8:03:18 7:03 6:37:10

She has finished the last 2 years over 16:45 in the female.

So yep, some older AG's would just go bye bye


Anderson, Harriet USA 1 525 1887 02:10:18 07:37:50 06:49:36 16:59:19 5000

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [craigj532] [ In reply to ]
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craigj532 wrote:
This has nothing to do with "the integrity of the women's race." The pro women had a 25-minute start on the age groupers for years, and it never affected the cut-off times. This is a result of splitting the male and female AG starts, which as we've already discussed was done so WTC could stuff more age groupers into the race and make more money. Make it a mass AG start again, and the cut-off could still be 17:00.

This may have been commented on before my post. But, 2013 was the first year that there was a 25 minute separation between the women pros and age groupers. This year it is at 20 minutes. Depending on how you look at it (I am married to a female pro who has raced Kona) the "integrity of the women's race" changes with the proximity to the male pros and age groupers. It changes because the faster women swimmers get mixed in with the 2nd pro male pack OR the slower women get mixed up with the faster age grouper swimmers. I 'think' that the thought would be that greater separation between women/male pros and pro women and age group men will make the women pro race more fair.


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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [bhc] [ In reply to ]
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bhc wrote:
This is an article on the economic effect that IM- Kona has on the local economy.

http://www.kpua.net/focus10132003.php

A Department of Business Economic Development and Tourism study concluded that $14.9 million is pumped in to the island economy over Ironman race dates. Utilizing known multiplier effects, that number mushrooms to more than $26 million in total sales resulting in $2.5 million in tax revenues alone...

I have no doubt that Kona has a huge, local economic impact, and that the Chamber, city council, and all powers-that-be locally are hugely supportive of WTC and keeping the event in town.

With that said, these economic impact studies are always hugely exaggerated, and the "multiplier effect" often used to make the numbers sound enormous are a farce. Frankly, $14.9m for Kona does not strike me as unreasonable considering the huge volume of non-athlete vendors and support that come for this prestigious event, so this particular study may have some grounding in reality, but these studies generally need to be drilled into to reveal the overly optimistic assumptions. I remember for IMNYC the economic impact pitched locally worked out to $14,000 per athlete, a number very hard to justify by any optimistic projections of affluent athlete spending or using "multiplier effect".
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Robert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Robert wrote:
That's a bit harsh. Remember, WTC has essentially created this brand after its initial birth by others and is forging a new path. They are learning and will make mistakes, but for the most part they have done a superb job. They have made Ironman races a place a lot of folks want to be. The quality is generally very high. Kona and Mont-Tremblant are certainly two of the most professionally run sports events on the planet. (How about World Cup soccer in Dubai? Who came up with that brilliant idea?) They do listen, and this letter is a response. But, we should always expect these races to be evolving.

Personally, I think the pros are wage slaves to the system and only a handful make any money to speak of. And the work is EXTREME. I'd much rather watch Carfrae than some overweight footballer with a drug habit. Anyway, the pros need to be paid something commensurate with the work and training involved. I give the pros great credit for doing their part to build the sport. The sport is much better known today than 30 years ago and most of that is due to the Ironman brand. By way of example, I was in DC at a race and afterwards was walking through some of the monuments (WWII) and met a New Zealander. He new all about the NZ triathletes! He spent 10 minutes filling me in, though I knew most of it. Incredible.

Although I have said my piece about water quality, wave separations and several other issues here, generally I give WTC very high marks.

-Robert

I disagree with the statement I have bolded. Just because they are doing something difficult doesn't mean they should be compensated for it. They need to show they bring value & money to an organization to get paid.

I keep reading about people bitching about WTC, yet they seem to continue to sign up for and race their events. Now that Challenge & Rev3 have merged there seems to be a legitimate opportunity for the pros to unify and increase their value, but I haven't seen much discussion about that. The merger seems like it creates the perfect opportunity for the pros to work with Challenge to create some sort of pro series and pro purse. They should be working together to figure out how to drive attention and publicity to it. As for the excuse about the sponsors balking about no WTC events, show them the value of this venture and race series.

Money Talks and the pros have not shown what they contribute to the bottom line.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
KonaCoffee wrote:
The 16:45 change actually is nothing more than a stupid solution to a non-existent problem which has beome rather typical of WTC under its current management.

But since you asked here you ho:

They've over stayed their welcome by many years. They take resources from our community and expect to be thanked.

They get special priveleges in conducting their for profit business on our state owned pier and state owned ocean. Guess what? That's not allowed! No other organization charging any fee for any reason whatsoever is allowed to use our pier or state beach access to the ocean unless they're boating related businesses with a permit. That includes all the tri camps, all the swim clinics, local triathlon clubs, and other for profit but smaller races -- all of them. Only WTC Gets away with this. It's been enforced against everyone except WTC. Enforce it against them as well. Or ate they just special and entitled like their athletes of late?

They seriously restrict travel over a large swath of our island on race day. In some places for well over 24 hours.

Their customers have become increasingly rude to locals over the last 5 years in particular.. They run red lights on their bycycles, they don't bother to stop at stop signs, they do more than encroach on the traffic lanes -- they flat out ride in large groups well inside traffic lanes. Somebody is s going to get killed and my sympathy is almost certainly going to be with the hapless driver.

And it's not just bikers. Every year I see numerous instances of runners stopping traffic during rush hour so they don't have to stop and wait for the walk sign during their runs. It's beyond ignorance, it intentional. Never ever see that outside of this time of the year.

WTC pays lip service to the safety issues. And it gets worse every year.

And then there's the travesty of how locals can't even race in the only long course triathlon here without going into the lottery. Big Island residents used to at least be able to compete for our slots. That was taken away as well. Now we get to put our names in a hat instead.

And every year the locals have to put up with way too many of the 1800+ athletes telling us how we ought to do things in Hawaii. And almost none of them have the slightest respect for the host culture.

Then there's the way you could say WTC treated a nice little 70.3 race out here by not just eliminating any pro purse for a June race but eliminating all 70.3 Championship points for the pros.

WTC behaves as if this is their company town. It's not, it's ours. The people that live here own it. I used to say that the town was split in 3s regarding this race. 1/3 wanted it in town, 1/3 wanted it to leave and 1/3 doesn't care. Only that last third hasn't changed. I know few people, including triathletes, who want it to stay now. Most now would send Itonman packing given the chance.


That's the short list.

To the special privileges beef. I suspect the special privileges that WTC gets has much more to do with the economic benefit of the race to the town and state than it does to any sort of bowing down to WTC. None of the other organizations (tri-clubs, swim clinics, not for profits, etc) likely bring much financial benefit to the community and as such are not given special dispensation. It would be nice if the state owned pier would increase access to the other, smaller, organizations because it is the right thing to do, not decrease access for WTC.

Restrict travel on the island. Can't argue there. every place that holds a major marathon, triathlon, bike race, etc has to do the same to its citizenry. It is up to the citizens (and their leaders) to decide whether the benefit of the event outweighs the negative for the community.

Rude customers. I won't argue this. I would implore triathletes to respect the island, its residents and its culture. If we want the island to continue to be our host, we need to be good guests. I will say that in my one trip to Kona (2011) I was so happy to be there that I could barely contain my enthusiasm. I attempted to be happy, gracious and polite to everyone and believe that I achieved my goal. During my ten days in Kona I had two interactions with locals who spontaneously, unprovoked, (at least by me-I hope) told me that I, and all of the other triathletes, were not welcome there. It was shocking and certainly left a bad taste in my mouth. Kona is the one race that I have travelled to that I really felt unwelcomed by the locals. Contrast that with Mont Tremblant, where nearly everyone is enthusiastically embracing the triathlon in their community. Perhaps they are too early in the WTC cycle to have tired of the race, or perhaps they just recognize what an economic boon the race is to the area.

I am sorry if we don't respect the host culture. This is an individual and corporate issue. I am constantly amazed at how badly many people treat others so I am not surprised that there is a problem with courtesy. Maybe WTC needs make this a focus and spend a significant amount of time in prerace emails and communications to educate the athletes about respecting the culture. It is unfortunate that grown people need to be told how to behave respectfully and appropriately.

As far as Kona goes, as a stand alone destination, it really isn't that great of a place to visit. Without the IM there, I would never go there to visit (please don't get all upset, people don't come to visit my hometown either). Maybe the people of Kona and the surrounding area would be fine with that but without the race in October I suspect the community would lose a significant source of its annual revenue. Again, maybe the people would rather have it that way. There are other towns on the island that are existing OK with out a major race. Perhaps Kona would prefer that but be careful what you wish for.

----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [prattzc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
prattzc wrote:
As for this new turn of corporate events, Dev is right, censorship sucks, but this isn't really censorship. This is the same as an employer asking that no one speaks out against the company without talking to the company rep first. If they still want to speak out against the company, go ahead, but you might not be working for the company anymore. There are other companies to go work for.

I think you and Dev have it backwards. WTC is not the employer of pros; pros are customers of wtc. Pros pay to race, just like you and I; ~1000 of them pay $800/year to race ironmans and be eligible for prize purses. I'd guess fewer than a 100 make back their $800/year in prizes. Which means if the other 900 choose to not be customers, wtc is out $700k/year, or a decent chunk of their annual prize purse.

Would you as a customer enter a race and sign a consent agreement saying you wouldn't twitter bad things about wtc? Or what if that stipulation was only imposed on a certain subset of customers--say people in the 25-29 age group? Would you stand up for them out of principles of fairness against a monopolistic corporation trying to hush dissent? Or would you say, "the free market rules, they can choose to race or not"?




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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Ellsworth53T] [ In reply to ]
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Ellsworth53T wrote:
wow, none of them would officially finish under the 16:45 rule. I didn't realize that. this makes that 15 minutes a bigger deal to me when previously i had shrugged it off. thats effectively eliminating that age group and presumable the women's as well.

I also think those 5-10 men & women will find a way to find 5 minutes and all finish in 16:40-16:45. I think namely, they will bike a little faster, as that's where they have to largest margin of performance. I think they have more fundamental limits on the swim and run. If you can work on their bike positions a little (assuming their shoulders can tolerate more weight on them)... make sure they have a very deliberate power plan (I bet the VI of all those guys is over 1.10 because they spend so much time at 0 watts), then light a fire under their ass in transition... they can find 5 minutes pretty easy.... because quite frankly...they will do what they have to to finish, and win. Not criticizing at all, just pointing out where they have time to gain, in the same place most AG athletes can gain time. Same way I know I can still gain time looking at my own performance.

Look at 75-79 males, Transition times ranged from about 16-30 minutes. the 2nd place guy nearly won the race in transition despite being about 50 minutes behind out of the water. Harriet Anderson only spend 20 minutes in transition, so that's not too bad. She could find 5 minutes there looking at the male times. I'd guess that a relatively quick change just walking the whole thing takes 12-15 minutes if you limit how long you stay seated.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [prattzc] [ In reply to ]
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prattzc wrote:
Fred, the big difference between Kona and IMLP is that Lake Placid actually would suffer financially as they are a small "Winter" town that thrives during ski season. Summer was not a huge season for them before Ironman came into town and turned it into THE place to be for summertime fitness.

Kona is a tourist attraction even without Ironman and will survive just fine. That's a guess as the worl economy has changed a lot over the years and Ironman has been a factor for a lot of it, but I think Kona would do VERY well without Ironman. I don't think Lake Placid would do as well and would gradually be less of a summer town over the years. Yes, LP has other events, mostly with the major horse show in June/July and rowing, but the amount of athletes that go there to bike and run from May to July is staggering. If there is no IMLP, then Lake George NY becomes a better summer town to train in.

I will likely never make it to Kona to race IM, I would have liked to, but I am equally fascinated to go there for a family vacation, maybe even more so than racing there.

As for this new turn of corporate events, Dev is right, censorship sucks, but this isn't really censorship. This is the same as an employer asking that no one speaks out against the company without talking to the company rep first. If they still want to speak out against the company, go ahead, but you might not be working for the company anymore. There are other companies to go work for.

I'm not so sure. There are literally hundreds, probably thousands of beach destinations that are nicer than Kona. Kona proper just isn't that nice. Some of the resort areas outside of Kona are pretty fantastic but without the IM as its source of free marketing it is unlikely that many folks would be rushing to vacation in Kona. Likely most would have never even heard of it.

Again. Loved my time there. I would never plan a vacation there unless it involved some important race in October.

----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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But the pro's are being paid by WTC, if they place. Pro's are being used like an ad and marketing, to bring in customers (age groupers).
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
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You don't think the pros bring value to WTC and/ triathlon?

Having pros race says: "This sport is the real deal; it's very hard; it's something you might be able to do. We will show you what the best humans can do." Triathlon has democratic appeal, traditional roots in three sports, and an over-all healthy lifestyle appeal. That's why Carfrae and chocolate milk are so great together. (I drink soy, but, never mind....)

I started in triathlon because it was the sort of off-beat thing in the early '80's I would do, and not because of the pros. But now, it is very interesting to watch the pros, see what they do and how they do it, and to compare performances (purely as a entertainment, and not because I think I can get close to their performances). It's a lot like bike racing without the drugs, IMHO. Those pros get millions.... Why shouldn't Jordan Rapp be making millions?

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [prattzc] [ In reply to ]
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prattzc wrote:
But the pro's are being paid by WTC, if they place. Pro's are being used like an ad and marketing, to bring in customers (age groupers).

A pro winning a monetary prize at a wtc race is fundamentally no different than you winning $100, or a pair of sunglasses, for a podium at a local running race or bike race. You both paid to enter the race, and you may or may not recoup your entry fee.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Jordan45] [ In reply to ]
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Jordan45 wrote:
I thought WTC was just out to destroy Ironman as a pro sport. But with changing the age-group cutoff to 16:45, I realized that they're just dumb.

Roger Godell is the most competent CEO in America when compared with this guy.

I actually take serious offence to that comment. Shrugging domestic abuse under the rug is a fucking long way up the "should be fired" chain than having 10 athletes miss a cutoff. Give your head a shake.

Second, more general comment to thread.....all companies and sport leagues have code of conduct. And their employees and players share a lot more of the profits. Or put another way, if I owned a company that my employees went to twitter to slam do you think they'd still be employed? Or to lesser extent, do you think I would give them a bonus or raise? Pros need to get pro and "in bed" with the monopoly, or they need to walk with their wallets and PR to race Challenge. But they can't have both. Right or wrong, it's just not how it works and there are options to race elsewhere. this nonsense that twitter is their vehicle for change shows how amateur we are as a sport.

@rhyspencer
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
GMAN19030 wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
I think in this case, most would do the Challenge race in Kona vs say the WTC Ironman race in Maui or back in Oahu.


I'd bet everything I own on the opposite. Did you not learn anything from Penticton? People will follow the Ironman name. Don't be foolish.

We're reaching a tipping point, especially in North America.

No we are not. Signed: Penticton taxpayer!

@rhyspencer
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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I think there is a difference between winning a pair of socks at a local tri versus your only salary as a professional triathlete. Thankfully neither I nor my family needs the socks to survive.

And maybe I used the wrong terminology, they are contracted, not employees. I still have clauses in place for our contractors.

While the letter seems to come off as an angry response to recent social media venting of the pro's, it does have a valid point. Probably could have been worded better though.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Robert] [ In reply to ]
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Robert wrote:
You don't think the pros bring value to WTC and/ triathlon?

Having pros race says: "This sport is the real deal; it's very hard; it's something you might be able to do. We will show you what the best humans can do." Triathlon has democratic appeal, traditional roots in three sports, and an over-all healthy lifestyle appeal. That's why Carfrae and chocolate milk are so great together. (I drink soy, but, never mind....)

I started in triathlon because it was the sort of off-beat thing in the early '80's I would do, and not because of the pros. But now, it is very interesting to watch the pros, see what they do and how they do it, and to compare performances (purely as a entertainment, and not because I think I can get close to their performances). It's a lot like bike racing without the drugs, IMHO. Those pros get millions.... Why shouldn't Jordan Rapp be making millions?

-Robert

Again, I fail to see where the pros bring value to an organization. Is what they do and are able to accomplish difficult and amazing, absolutely. However watching in amazement at their achievements, admiring their lifestyle and using their performances as a benchmark does not in it's current state generate monetary value. You have failed to provide any examples of pros causing people to spend money because of them. Jordan Rapp should be making millions when he can show to an organization/company that he generates even more millions for them.

I still don't understand why the pros haven't come together for THEIR greater good and potentially work with Challenge to build something together and market themselves heavily. All I continue to hear is WTC should pay pros more because they are doing something difficult. Nobody is going to give you anything, in triathlon or life-you have to work for it and create value.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
bhc wrote:
This is an article on the economic effect that IM- Kona has on the local economy.

http://www.kpua.net/focus10132003.php

A Department of Business Economic Development and Tourism study concluded that $14.9 million is pumped in to the island economy over Ironman race dates. Utilizing known multiplier effects, that number mushrooms to more than $26 million in total sales resulting in $2.5 million in tax revenues alone...


I have no doubt that Kona has a huge, local economic impact, and that the Chamber, city council, and all powers-that-be locally are hugely supportive of WTC and keeping the event in town.

With that said, these economic impact studies are always hugely exaggerated, and the "multiplier effect" often used to make the numbers sound enormous are a farce. Frankly, $14.9m for Kona does not strike me as unreasonable considering the huge volume of non-athlete vendors and support that come for this prestigious event, so this particular study may have some grounding in reality, but these studies generally need to be drilled into to reveal the overly optimistic assumptions. I remember for IMNYC the economic impact pitched locally worked out to $14,000 per athlete, a number very hard to justify by any optimistic projections of affluent athlete spending or using "multiplier effect".

FWIM.... for Kona next year, here's my rough budget....

Entry fee - $850
Airfare - $6500 = 4 adults, 1 child.... not that they charge you less for a 40lb 6 year old...which is total BS... but I guess he ticket subsidizes the fat adults... maybe they should weight passengers and their luggage and a use an initial or minimum fee + a per lb price... that's how other cargo gets charged.
House rental ~$2200 with fees & taxes)? (1/4 mi from ocean, we know the sister of the owners, then have branch of their business in our town)
Car rental - $500?
Food & gifts, sights - $2500-3500 (could be very optimistic).
Total = around $12,000-13,000

Our cheaper accommodations skew the results a little I think.

We're also probably going to spend 3 days in Oahu afterwards, so that not included. The whole state gets a little bump from the event since a lot of folks often stay on another island after the event... not just Kona, but state taxes, not just local property taxes, pay for roads, schools, etc. If your paying $6000+ for airfare, might as well stick around a few more days. Could be 10-15 years before I visit there again.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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Entry fee and airfare are not local economic benefits, so lop $7500 off your total when considering how many of your dollars are local economic impact.

I also agree that Kona has an exceptionally large local economic benefit. Folks bring entire families for a vacation. Everyone travels to get there, so everyone stays in local lodging. Huge numbers of non-participants come because it's Kona. Everyone stays a full week or more, much longer than other events.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
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Replace "Kona" with "Penticton". That's exactly what happened here to a T.

So the $15MM question is: Is Kona prepared to do a Penticton?

@rhyspencer
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
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Well, we will have to disagree on that. Why do you think WTC pays the pros? Because they look good? Have you seen Jordan Rapp? ;)

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
My school district has a code of conduct for how it's staff can/ can't behave on social media. Violations can results in termination. My guess is that most professional positions have similar stipulations in their terms for employment. I'm not sure why anyone expects pro triathletes to have a free pass.

Because the pro triathletes are not in a contract with WTC.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
I don't disagree. What strikes me is the sense of entitlement that WTC exudes over the pros, while simultaneously treating them like shit. The majority of pros who participate in a WTC event actually pay for the privilege as they recoup less than their annual fee.

Pros should behave professionally. They should have a more common front. It is certainly not WTC's responsibility to get them organized and establish codes of conduct. Frankly, the pros should create a player's union, like other professional sports have, that has this responsibility.

Nicely said. As I read through the message, I really felt what you're saying here.

The part I find the most frustrating is the "Building the Sport of Triathlon" section. They repeatedly use the phrase "our sport", but I think it would be more accurate to substitute "our business". I don't care for the "Ironman = triathlon" attitude. As a community, we need to drop that.

I think the forced corporate-approved volunteering is wrong. There are some relatively local pros that help out here in central Indiana with events put on by local organizations. These might not necessarily be volunteer efforts, but they're doing what they can do to grow "our sport." Instead, WTC wants to force him to do something of which they approve? What if he volunteered at a local tri, or a race put on by Challenge, Toughman, Setup Events, America Multisport or any of the many quality events around the world that aren't "name brand"? Would the WTC approve that? I doubt it. The WTC is forcing grassroots efforts to themselves. I don't like where this seems to be going. I really hope I am wrong.

To grow "our sport", we can all do that and should be able to help out how we choose - whether we convince a friend to try a local sprint, volunteer at a local race, take our kids out for a run/bike ride/swim, raise money for a charity, race local races, promote our favorite races - whatever we think might benefit triathlon. Triathlon is a community before it is a business. We all have the ability to be evangelists and ambassadors for "our sport". I have been fortunate to meet a lot of people in this community that are passionate about it, and no corporation should tell us what we can and can't do.

This has been a bad year for the pros. They have lost a lot of leverage and the WTC is exploiting them.

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kny] [ In reply to ]
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Indirectly they do. The airlines pay for use of the airports that get you to Kona. If volume of flights to Kona goes down by X% then the revenues paid to the local airport are going to go down Y%. Then less local resources are needed to staff the airport, resulting in Z% less tax revenue. Also, your entry fee is used to pay for the race (as well as WTC's overhead and profits). So a portion of the entry fee is utilized to secure permits, local support resources, etc. Its not 100% of that, but it does contribute to the overall revenues.


kny wrote:
Entry fee and airfare are not local economic benefits, so lop $7500 off your total when considering how many of your dollars are local economic impact.

I also agree that Kona has an exceptionally large local economic benefit. Folks bring entire families for a vacation. Everyone travels to get there, so everyone stays in local lodging. Huge numbers of non-participants come because it's Kona. Everyone stays a full week or more, much longer than other events.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
Entry fee and airfare are not local economic benefits, so lop $7500 off your total when considering how many of your dollars are local economic impact.

I also agree that Kona has an exceptionally large local economic benefit. Folks bring entire families for a vacation. Everyone travels to get there, so everyone stays in local lodging. Huge numbers of non-participants come because it's Kona. Everyone stays a full week or more, much longer than other events.

You can't cut them 100%. At least 25% of the entry fee is spend locally and a portion of the airfare will impact the local economy. Fuel purchase, gate fees, airport employees, taxes, in flight meal.

My presence draws a fractional increase in the presence of vendors.

But yes, it's hard to quantify clearly. Most of my house rental goes to a person that lives in Alaska that's paying a mortgage to a bank located who knows where. My rental car fee goes to a corporation and the vehicle was purchased elsewhere.

So a dollar spent locally for one thing, is different than another. But there's still an impact.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Furious D] [ In reply to ]
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I don't disagree that if WTC wants to impose gag orders on its participants, it can try to do so. That said, it makes them look heavy handed and defensive. Given how little money pros make from the sport, WTC has pretty much no leverage to scare most pros into submission. What are they going to do - take away a pro's "right" to pay an overpriced entry fee to do a race in which they won't win any money?
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Robert] [ In reply to ]
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Robert wrote:
Well, we will have to disagree on that. Why do you think WTC pays the pros? Because they look good? Have you seen Jordan Rapp? ;)

-Robert

Pays the pros what, a prize for winning? My local sprint tri & 5k pay out to the winner too. What about Jordan Rapp? He's fast, awesome! Why does that mean he should get paid?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just tired of reading about people bitching about WTC and saying that pros should get paid because they are fast & do something difficult. If you don't like what WTC is doing, than do something about it, don't just complain. Don't sign up for their races, don't buy their branded merchandise, etc. As for paying the pros, they have to show value they bring. WTC or anybody else isn't going to give them money just because they compete in a difficult sport. Andrew Messick doesn't answer to the pros, he answers to Providence Equity. If the pros want him to listen more to them they need to do something and generate monetary value. Ironman races continue to sell out to the average AGer.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [vancity] [ In reply to ]
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hmmm... sticking the fork in the 1st amendment.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [vancity] [ In reply to ]
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Good luck trying to enforce it. WTC is going to police then entire world's professional triathletes who compete in their events?
Did they sign a deal with the NSA?

#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
Not sure why he didn't address it "Dear Minions".

Fucking perfect! I spit a little bit of milk out when I read that.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [tlc13] [ In reply to ]
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Don't start this crap. The first amendment does not guarantee you the right to say whatever you want WITHOUT repercussion. In this case it guarantees the pros that they are not going to be prosecuted by the GOVERNMENT for saying they don't like things about the WTC.

WTC is well within their rights to put in place code of conduct guidelines and enforce those as a corporation. Same as ESPN can suspend Bill Simmons for 3 weeks for voicing his opinion on their radio station (yes, I know this doesn't relate to WTC and the Pros not being employees, but that is the same principle).



tlc13 wrote:
hmmm... sticking the fork in the 1st amendment.
Last edited by: Furious D: Sep 26, 14 8:30
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
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Having prize money is what makes it a competitive sport. Without it, it's not a sport. It's a participation event. Like a charity walk. Except the charity in this case is a private company.

Prize money indirectly drives the growth of the sport by legitimizing the competition. You need look no further than the banter on this forum, ironman's website, or local coverage event to see that competition in our sport matters. As stewards of the term ironman (at this point is ubiquitous with triathlon), they have an obligation to the sport - beyond their own coffers - to grow and showcase that competition.

___________________
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [grindmonkey] [ In reply to ]
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NFL, NBA, and NASCAR are all contracted, salaried employees.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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The Guardian wrote:
I don't disagree that if WTC wants to impose gag orders on its participants, it can try to do so. That said, it makes them look heavy handed and defensive. Given how little money pros make from the sport, WTC has pretty much no leverage to scare most pros into submission. What are they going to do - take away a pro's "right" to pay an overpriced entry fee to do a race in which they won't win any money?

But at the same time the WTC has come to them basically saying - 'hey things between us have sucked and we are admitting that. Here's what we are trying to do to improve things for you. So instead of getting in social media pissing matches, lets work it out internally. If you disagree with what we are doing to make things better, or have other concerns, please go through these people or come to me, the CEO directly. Just please don't go out and fight this battle on social media'.

So that may come across as heavy handed, but to me its kind of reasonable. I imagine its in the best interest of WTC to keep their highest profile participants from bashing the brand in public. And its probably in the best interest of the pros who want to make money off of WTC to publicly promote the brand, rather than break it down.

Then what is the response to this request of a pro? I'm going to go ahead and disseminate this information so it gets out on social media instead of voicing my concerns through the channels outlined. I've been very critical of WTC in some cases, but actions like this also makes the pros look bad.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [tlc13] [ In reply to ]
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tlc13 wrote:
hmmm... sticking the fork in the 1st amendment.

Why does everyone go there. I may not be a lawyer or constitutional scholar, but my educated understanding of it is that it's not an all inclusive right. It is illegal for example to yell "fire" in a crowed place. Slander, Libel, plagiarism, terrorism, harassment, copyrights are other forms of public communication that are illegal and go against a simplistic interpretation of the 1st amendment. You are not free to say or write whatever you want, if it negatively impacts the rights of someone else.

Not really. A professional athlete is essentially an entertainer. The promoter of a private event can have control over it's "performers". They I assume, sign an agreement when they pay their annual registration fee and are essentially being paid to perform since they are receiving a discount on normal entry fees, receive some amount of marketing, promotion from the event without additional fees. Just having their own swim wave start, special color race bibs, etc. though minor, is a form of promotion.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [david] [ In reply to ]
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david wrote:
"There are already races that have cut offs less than 17 hours (16:30 at Mallorca for instance). "
--------------------
15 in Roth, and they seem to be doing OK.

On the other hand, as I now go into 55-59 and I feel the precipitous slide, at some point I may lobby for 19!

True. Switzerland is 16 hrs. I think most of the European IM races are as well.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [snackchair] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I disagree that prize money is what legitimizes something as a sport. By that logic Crossfit is a sport too since they offer prize money. I'm not saying that it's not in WTC's own best interest to grow the sport, but I am asking what have the pros done to cause WTC to pay them more? I am also making the point that WTC is not the only show in town and their are other options available. Rev3 stopped having a pro purse because they couldn't put a competitive field together to justify the expense even though they were paying more than WTC many times.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kcb203] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
+1


The cutoff should remain 17 hours, these guys are EVERY bit a part of the Ironman race, just as much as Crowie, and Macca and Chrissie and Rinnie and everyone else at the front of the field is. That is what makes Ironman racing so great, the inspirational stories like Lew Hollander and Sister Madonna Buder. Bring back the 17 hour cutoff.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
motoguy128 wrote:
tlc13 wrote:
hmmm... sticking the fork in the 1st amendment.


Why does everyone go there. I may not be a lawyer or constitutional scholar, but my educated understanding of it is that it's not an all inclusive right. It is illegal for example to yell "fire" in a crowed place. Slander, Libel, plagiarism, terrorism, harassment, copyrights are other forms of public communication that are illegal and go against a simplistic interpretation of the 1st amendment. You are not free to say or write whatever you want, if it negatively impacts the rights of someone else.

Not really. A professional athlete is essentially an entertainer. The promoter of a private event can have control over it's "performers". They I assume, sign an agreement when they pay their annual registration fee and are essentially being paid to perform since they are receiving a discount on normal entry fees, receive some amount of marketing, promotion from the event without additional fees. Just having their own swim wave start, special color race bibs, etc. though minor, is a form of promotion.

Correct - Much like the second amendment provides you the right to bear arms. It doesn't say that you have the right to bear arms without regulation.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [snackchair] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Competitive sports do not, in any way, need to have money associated with winning.

For some, the act of winning is what drives their competition.

As it should.

By this definition, high school sports would be "participation events" and not "competitive sport." Heck, same with NCAA college football.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [vancity] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ironman telling pros how to behave on social media will make things worse rather than better. They are asking people to not be people. A totalitarian utopian rule environment will drive people away to more freedom. WTC will drive pros away to Challenge where they don't feel imprisoned.

The wise governing body allows a moderate amount of freedom. Just like you want to know who the jerk or idiot is in the room by letting people talk, you can find out who are your quality athletes you want to invest your time in by letting them use social media however they want and then you'll know who's a quality person.

Overly tight control works for a short while, but when a crack shows, the unhappy masses use it to leverage a strong revolt and a violent overthrow. Arab Spring, Thirteen colonies revolution... historic examples abound.

----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [CementBottle] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
CementBottle wrote:
+1


The cutoff should remain 17 hours, these guys are EVERY bit a part of the Ironman race, just as much as Crowie, and Macca and Chrissie and Rinnie and everyone else at the front of the field is. That is what makes Ironman racing so great, the inspirational stories like Lew Hollander and Sister Madonna Buder. Bring back the 17 hour cutoff.

+2


.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [snackchair] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
snackchair wrote:
Having prize money is what makes it a competitive sport. Without it, it's not a sport. It's a participation event. Like a charity walk.

Side note, but I had to disagree with this. High school track for example is a competitive sport - no prize money.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"You damn kids get off my lawn."

/

Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [cjbruin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So, I guess this is one of many reasons why Macca no longer associates himself with Ironman, huh?
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Furious D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Furious D wrote:
[
But at the same time the WTC has come to them basically saying - 'hey things between us have sucked and we are admitting that. Here's what we are trying to do to improve things for you. So instead of getting in social media pissing matches, lets work it out internally. If you disagree with what we are doing to make things better, or have other concerns, please go through these people or come to me, the CEO directly. Just please don't go out and fight this battle on social media'.

Yeah but WTC didn't say that. They said, "We are prepared to engage in a vibrant dialog about professional racing with you and your fellow professional athletes, but the dialog cannot take place publicly." [emphasis added] Which is pretty imperious if you ask me.

I don't disagree that public sniping isn't always the way to go, but the tone of this is wrong.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
[/quote]

Yeah but WTC didn't say that. They said, "We are prepared to engage in a vibrant dialog about professional racing with you and your fellow professional athletes, but the dialog cannot take place publicly." [emphasis added] Which is pretty imperious if you ask me.

I don't disagree that public sniping isn't always the way to go, but the tone of this is wrong.[/quote]



You're right. It's poorly worded ( as are many of his communications IMO). Should have said "we prefer to keep this communication in house. If you choose to take to social media, please be reminded we have a personal conduct policy and will enforce it."
Last edited by: Furious D: Sep 26, 14 9:10
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You are completely right. If the Pros would STOP chasing Kona and WTC's trumped up World Championship then that would make a real statement. No pros, no championship event. Instead they whine like a bunch of little kids about not being able to have their cake and eat it too.

If you agree to participate then you agree to follow the rules of the event. If you don't like it, go somewhere else.

Ready or not here I come!
Coaching NY's Southern Tier
Swift^3
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
>>]Having prize money is what makes it a competitive sport. Without it, it's not a sport. It's a participation event. Like a charity walk.

>Side note, but I had to disagree with this. High school track for example is a competitive sport - no prize money.

Or any number of Olympic sports with no professional league to speak of...swimming, rowing, gymnastics, etc.
Last edited by: trail: Sep 26, 14 9:07
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [texafornia] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The unfortunate part is that pros have the need/desire to bitch about how things are done. If WTC did a better job supporting pros, you wouldn't see any complaining about it.

How often do pros complain about Challenge or did they complain about Rev3 (before the prize purse was lost?). I never heard a single bad thing come from a Pro about Lifetime, either.

Granted, I am a back of the back of the pack pro, but it seems strange that WTC is making some of these moves. If a good portion of the pro field is complaining or seems unhappy, something is seriously wrong.

speedySTATES
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 
>Again, I fail to see where the pros bring value to an organization.

I fail to see where the pros don't bring value to the organization. That's just the problem. It's difficult to quantify. The only way to measure the value would be for them to go away. Everything else is just opinion.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
andrewnova wrote:
Robert wrote:
You don't think the pros bring value to WTC and/ triathlon?

Having pros race says: "This sport is the real deal; it's very hard; it's something you might be able to do. We will show you what the best humans can do." Triathlon has democratic appeal, traditional roots in three sports, and an over-all healthy lifestyle appeal. That's why Carfrae and chocolate milk are so great together. (I drink soy, but, never mind....)

I started in triathlon because it was the sort of off-beat thing in the early '80's I would do, and not because of the pros. But now, it is very interesting to watch the pros, see what they do and how they do it, and to compare performances (purely as a entertainment, and not because I think I can get close to their performances). It's a lot like bike racing without the drugs, IMHO. Those pros get millions.... Why shouldn't Jordan Rapp be making millions?

-Robert


Again, I fail to see where the pros bring value to an organization. Is what they do and are able to accomplish difficult and amazing, absolutely. However watching in amazement at their achievements, admiring their lifestyle and using their performances as a benchmark does not in it's current state generate monetary value. You have failed to provide any examples of pros causing people to spend money because of them. Jordan Rapp should be making millions when he can show to an organization/company that he generates even more millions for them.

I still don't understand why the pros haven't come together for THEIR greater good and potentially work with Challenge to build something together and market themselves heavily. All I continue to hear is WTC should pay pros more because they are doing something difficult. Nobody is going to give you anything, in triathlon or life-you have to work for it and create value.


What kind of bike do you ride? Did you test lots of them before buying? What helmet do you use? What about your tri kit? It seems to me that a lot of the things triathletes buy and use are influenced by what they see professionals using. When did sleeved tri tops become popular? After Marino wore one in Kona a couple years ago. I bet if you counted how many people wore them that year and compare it to how many you'll see this year, it's a very different number. I remember the message boards being abuzz about what he was wearing and where can people get one.

Whether you admit it or not, our consumerism is absolutely impacted by the products professionals use. And seeing professionals on the course is pretty cool if you ask me. I remember seeing Rinny at IMFL last year and, even though she completely sandbagged it to validate, having a World Champion there brings an allure to a race. And judging by the amount of people lined up to get autographs and pictures with her and TO the day before, I'd say those people got some value out of it too. I'll never kick a soccer ball with Wayne Rooney or Messi, but I can share a road and a lake with Kienle and Crowie. That's a pretty unique aspect to the sport.

____________________________________________________

Instagram | Team Kiwami North America | Nuun
Last edited by: Sbradley11: Sep 26, 14 9:19
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [grindmonkey] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
>You want a sport that will become watchable and palatable to the masses you will have to provide a unified front.

I disagree with the premise. For a sport to be watchable and platable it merely needs to be...watchable and palatable. Long course triathlon just isn't, except to (some) other triathletes and their families who pretend to be interested after being dragged to some race venue.

All this social media policy talk is just a marginal stuff around the edges of core entertainment value. What's the most entertaining stuff recently? - TRS who turned the irreverent speech dial to '11'. Far more interesting than the canned corporate-speak spewed by most pro triathletes. (Satirized pretty well by another fake twitter account.)
Last edited by: trail: Sep 26, 14 9:20
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Sbradley11] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sbradley11 wrote:
andrewnova wrote:
Robert wrote:
You don't think the pros bring value to WTC and/ triathlon?

Having pros race says: "This sport is the real deal; it's very hard; it's something you might be able to do. We will show you what the best humans can do." Triathlon has democratic appeal, traditional roots in three sports, and an over-all healthy lifestyle appeal. That's why Carfrae and chocolate milk are so great together. (I drink soy, but, never mind....)

I started in triathlon because it was the sort of off-beat thing in the early '80's I would do, and not because of the pros. But now, it is very interesting to watch the pros, see what they do and how they do it, and to compare performances (purely as a entertainment, and not because I think I can get close to their performances). It's a lot like bike racing without the drugs, IMHO. Those pros get millions.... Why shouldn't Jordan Rapp be making millions?

-Robert


Again, I fail to see where the pros bring value to an organization. Is what they do and are able to accomplish difficult and amazing, absolutely. However watching in amazement at their achievements, admiring their lifestyle and using their performances as a benchmark does not in it's current state generate monetary value. You have failed to provide any examples of pros causing people to spend money because of them. Jordan Rapp should be making millions when he can show to an organization/company that he generates even more millions for them.

I still don't understand why the pros haven't come together for THEIR greater good and potentially work with Challenge to build something together and market themselves heavily. All I continue to hear is WTC should pay pros more because they are doing something difficult. Nobody is going to give you anything, in triathlon or life-you have to work for it and create value.


What kind of bike do you ride? Did you test lots of them before buying? What helmet do you use? What about your tri kit? It seems to me that a lot of the things triathletes buy and use are influenced by what they see professionals using. When did sleeved tri tops become popular? After Marino wore one in Kona a couple years ago. I bet if you counted how many people wore them that year and compare it to how many you'll see this year, it's a very different number. I remember the message boards being abuzz about what he was wearing and where can people get one.

Whether you admit it or not, our consumerism is absolutely impacted by the products professionals use. And seeing professionals on the course is pretty cool if you ask me. I remember seeing Rinny at IMFL last year and, even though she completely sandbagged it to validate, having a World Champion there brings an allure to a race. And judging by the amount of people lined up to get autographs and pictures with her and TO the day before, I'd say those people got some value out of it too. I'll never kick a soccer ball with Wayne Rooney or Messi, but I can share a road and a lake with Kienle and Crowie. That's a pretty unique aspect to the sport.

My bike, helmet, tri kit, and everything else tri based I have purchased has been 0% influenced by professionals. I bought what I thought was a decent product at a good price. I know Starky rides an Orbea but that is the only bike and product for that matter that I could match up with what a pro uses. Even knowing he is a great rider & what he rides, I would get another bike if I got a better deal on it. Let's also realize message boards, especially triathlon message boards are a very small part not only the general population but also the triathlon community.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This smells just like the companies that have threatened to "fine" customers for leaving bad reviews on social media in places like Yelp. It doesn't work, and usually blows up in their faces.

Q: What would YOU do if your Ironman race-entry had a clause that "Thou shalt not criticize WTC or the Ironman event in social media"?

I expect we will see more parody accounts like TheRealStarky in response to this WTC "muzzling" of the pros. At least we can hope they will be half as entertaining as TRS...
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The Guardian wrote:
Furious D wrote:
[
But at the same time the WTC has come to them basically saying - 'hey things between us have sucked and we are admitting that. Here's what we are trying to do to improve things for you. So instead of getting in social media pissing matches, lets work it out internally. If you disagree with what we are doing to make things better, or have other concerns, please go through these people or come to me, the CEO directly. Just please don't go out and fight this battle on social media'.


Yeah but WTC didn't say that. They said, "We are prepared to engage in a vibrant dialog about professional racing with you and your fellow professional athletes, but the dialog cannot take place publicly." [emphasis added] Which is pretty imperious if you ask me.

I don't disagree that public sniping isn't always the way to go, but the tone of this is wrong.

Guardian, Are you willing to have all of your personal business, your salary negotiations, your taxes, your will, your disagreements with your family discussed in a public forum? Or are there some things that better handled privately? If you owned a business would you expect that the people you do business with refrain from making negative statements about you in a public forum? Expecting people we work with to behave professionally is not being imperious.

/

Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Gary Mc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It is worth noting that no where in #5 is there any specific threat of retaliation against pro's. There is a request to not use social media to air grievances.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, Canyon, Garmin, Gatorade Smith Optics, SpeedFil, OttoLock, ORR Cycling Wheels, BASE Nutrition
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [markg] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
markg wrote:
This smells just like the companies that have threatened to "fine" customers for leaving bad reviews on social media in places like Yelp. It doesn't work, and usually blows up in their faces.

Q: What would YOU do if your Ironman race-entry had a clause that "Thou shalt not criticize WTC or the Ironman event in social media"?

I expect we will see more parody accounts like TheRealStarky in response to this WTC "muzzling" of the pros. At least we can hope they will be half as entertaining as TRS...

Huge difference between the pros and the age groupers. Your comparison of a bad Yelp review is not valid. If I own a restaurant I can only control what the customers say by providing great service. But if an employee or business partner goes on to a public forum and slams my business I will find a new employee or business partner.

/

Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Perhaps you don't know what they ride, but I'd venture many people could name quite a few.

Let me ask it this way: Do you think Specialized had any value added when their bike went 1, 2, and 3 in Tremblant a couple weeks ago? I would guess there were some happy people in those offices that day.

____________________________________________________

Instagram | Team Kiwami North America | Nuun
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [fartleker] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
fartleker wrote:
The unfortunate part is that pros have the need/desire to bitch about how things are done. If WTC did a better job supporting pros, you wouldn't see any complaining about it.

How often do pros complain about Challenge or did they complain about Rev3 (before the prize purse was lost?). I never heard a single bad thing come from a Pro about Lifetime, either.

Granted, I am a back of the back of the pack pro, but it seems strange that WTC is making some of these moves. If a good portion of the pro field is complaining or seems unhappy, something is seriously wrong.

Right. Censoring pros is like WTC punishing pros for WTC's own bad behavior. Like getting mad at your boss for getting mad at you that you keep coming in late to work. This comes from running a company based on fear - fear of disappointing shareholders. If the company was run based on celebrating the sport and the amazing people and performances within, there would be a totally different attitude coming from top down.

----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Gary Mc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Gary Mc wrote:
markg wrote:
This smells just like the companies that have threatened to "fine" customers for leaving bad reviews on social media in places like Yelp. It doesn't work, and usually blows up in their faces.

Q: What would YOU do if your Ironman race-entry had a clause that "Thou shalt not criticize WTC or the Ironman event in social media"?

I expect we will see more parody accounts like TheRealStarky in response to this WTC "muzzling" of the pros. At least we can hope they will be half as entertaining as TRS...


Huge difference between the pros and the age groupers. Your comparison of a bad Yelp review is not valid. If I own a restaurant I can only control what the customers say by providing great service. But if an employee or business partner goes on to a public forum and slams my business I will find a new employee or business partner.

/

It's entirely valid. You haven't heard of the gag orders doctors are putting into patient/doctor agreements?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...IQA2KQhYQ_story.html


Fuming about a billing dispute with his dentist, Robert Allen Lee posted his complaints on two consumer review Web sites, triggering a legal battle over a technique designed to snuff out negative online commentary.

In late August, a day after Lee posted his comments on Yelp and DoctorBase, he received a letter from the dental practice threatening to sue him for at least $100,000 for “defamation, slander and libel.” The letter reminded him that he’d signed an agreement with his dentist that barred him from publishing a critique of her or her office.



This is exactly what wtc is trying to do with pros, who are in fact paying customers (paying $800/year to race ironman races). While the pros may have the option of taking their business elsewhere, I also have the option to loudly complain about this abhorrent business tactic. Trying to censor criticism is cowardly and an admission that wtc knows it's doing a terrible job. An organization confident and proud of its customer service is happy to have public conversations about it.




The Age Group Home on Facebook
Twitter jokes
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
CementBottle wrote:
+1


The cutoff should remain 17 hours, these guys are EVERY bit a part of the Ironman race, just as much as Crowie, and Macca and Chrissie and Rinnie and everyone else at the front of the field is. That is what makes Ironman racing so great, the inspirational stories like Lew Hollander and Sister Madonna Buder. Bring back the 17 hour cutoff.


+2


.

But it is not Ironman's fault it is the women pro's demanding more time difference. They pretty much threw the WPro field under the bus over that change.

------------------------
Cornwall (Ontario) Triathlon
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fred, to be honest I have no clue just what the deal, if any, the County of Hawaii has with WTC to provide the venue. Looking at it logically, it might actually be a deal with the State and may not involve the county at all. The venue they use for transition (the pier, which is done enough for the race this year btw), is state owned. The land around Hake Halewai is state controlled too, there was a minor snafu last year with a state bureaucrat over that.

If WTC is dealing only with the state, that would explain an awful lot as DLNR is not anyone's friend including the governor.

In reality, and after a very good nights sleep, I think that the real problem isn't the athletes per se or the vendor hawking their wares in town. It's people. We have the same issue with our regular tourists as well. Ironman simply concentrates lots of people in town instead of spreading them out as happens during tourist season. And instead of jay walking to trinket shops they're advertising themselves by wearing all that odd clothing and swarming the Queen K. It just magnifies things.

As for the impact in the local economy, it is big as you suggest. I really have no desire to put people out of work. But I'm quite annoyed by the preferences given WTC in their venue choice when organizations that put on swim and triathlon camps with far less negative impact (restricted access to the ocean during the event for example) are refused access at threat of criminal charges. Yes, people have been criminally charged for using our ocean. They bring business to our town as well and are, sadly, all abandoning Kona now. It takes two parties to allow the event but only one to chase an event away.

Edit: FYI there are only two levels of government in Hawaii. State and county. There are no incorporated cities as there are elsewhere in the country.


---------------------------------------------------------
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"
Last edited by: KonaCoffee: Sep 26, 14 10:19
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Givingchase] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Keep in mind it's not just the pros chasing Kona. It's the sponsoring pushing them in the direction of IM events. Place at X WTC event, get bonus. Place at Y non-IM event, maybe/maybe not a bonus. So it's really more complicated than you make it out to be on the pros. It's really an industry that pushes IM over any other events.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
>>]Having prize money is what makes it a competitive sport. Without it, it's not a sport. It's a participation event. Like a charity walk.

>Side note, but I had to disagree with this. High school track for example is a competitive sport - no prize money.

Or any number of Olympic sports with no professional league to speak of...swimming, rowing, gymnastics, etc.

You can make good money doing what you Americans call "Olympic" sports. Maybe just not in the USA. But sports are global.

Just read that a female endurance athlete in an "Olympic" sport got a sponsorship agreement with one of her many sponsors valued at USD300,000 a year as long as she is competing.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [tlc13] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tlc13 wrote:
hmmm... sticking the fork in the 1st amendment.

It's not a first amendment issue. The first amendment only applies to government. It might still be heavy handed and be wrong, but it's not a.free speech issue.

Somehow I don't think the lawyers at WTC looked at it as a censorship issue. I think they might be needing to get a pr spin on this quickly. They do read Slowtwitch you know.


---------------------------------------------------------
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
>>Having prize money is what makes it a competitive sport. Without it, it's not a sport. It's a participation event. Like a charity walk.



>You can make good money doing what you Americans call "Olympic" sports. Maybe just not in the USA. But sports are global.

Right, but I was responding to the specific term "prize money" above. There is no prize money in most swimming, for example. (afaik). Phelps makes his money on endorsements.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm not in favor of any cutoff unless there is a logistical need for one. Usually the run is mostly non-impact logistical element for the community, though not for volunteers. Something could be worked out. Anyway, the volunteers often stay way past the 17 hour cutoff to cheer on those hardy souls who wish to complete an Ironman, regardless of time cutoffs.

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AlwaysCurious wrote:
Gary Mc wrote:
markg wrote:
This smells just like the companies that have threatened to "fine" customers for leaving bad reviews on social media in places like Yelp. It doesn't work, and usually blows up in their faces.

Q: What would YOU do if your Ironman race-entry had a clause that "Thou shalt not criticize WTC or the Ironman event in social media"?

I expect we will see more parody accounts like TheRealStarky in response to this WTC "muzzling" of the pros. At least we can hope they will be half as entertaining as TRS...


Huge difference between the pros and the age groupers. Your comparison of a bad Yelp review is not valid. If I own a restaurant I can only control what the customers say by providing great service. But if an employee or business partner goes on to a public forum and slams my business I will find a new employee or business partner.

/


It's entirely valid. You haven't heard of the gag orders doctors are putting into patient/doctor agreements?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...IQA2KQhYQ_story.html



Fuming about a billing dispute with his dentist, Robert Allen Lee posted his complaints on two consumer review Web sites, triggering a legal battle over a technique designed to snuff out negative online commentary.

In late August, a day after Lee posted his comments on Yelp and DoctorBase, he received a letter from the dental practice threatening to sue him for at least $100,000 for “defamation, slander and libel.” The letter reminded him that he’d signed an agreement with his dentist that barred him from publishing a critique of her or her office.



This is exactly what wtc is trying to do with pros, who are in fact paying customers (paying $800/year to race ironman races). While the pros may have the option of taking their business elsewhere, I also have the option to loudly complain about this abhorrent business tactic. Trying to censor criticism is cowardly and an admission that wtc knows it's doing a terrible job. An organization confident and proud of its customer service is happy to have public conversations about it.

I disagree that pros who pay a fee as part of a professional organization are the same as age groupers who pay for a service as a customer. As I said the pros are more like business partners. Nearly all businesses and sporting organizations have a code of conduct. Expecting professional triathletes to abide by reasonable professional standards is not censorship. The pros can say anything they want, but they can't say anything they want without consequences.

/

Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Gary Mc] [ In reply to ]
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As I said the pros are more like business partners.

________

The only issue I have with this. They seem to be business partners when only WTC wants them to be. I never would have qualified this relationship as a business partner 6 months ago. That's the issue I have with this. But that's WTC for you, and they can do it, because they are the big badass company in triathlon. I guess the tone of their approach came off to rough/strict for my taste.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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As for the 16:45 cut off in Kona, I think the integrity of the women's race is more important than the whether some of us age groupers can finish in 17 or 16:45. I think this affects 5-10 older athletes versus the pro women's competition. Perhaps a provision could be made for athletes over 70 to start right after pro women and each of them can have a kayak escort BEHIND them so that it is impossible to swim over them. Then it is win win for all!

Can't it be both? Or does it get darker between 12:00 AM and 12:15 AM?

I think the increased gap is a good thing. But that doesn't mean everyone can't get 17 hours.


We are so fucked.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Gary Mc] [ In reply to ]
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Being business partners assumes equitable exchange between the parties. The problem is that the current perception is the WTC-Pro "partnership" is anything BUT equitable.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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Bryancd wrote:
It is worth noting that no where in #5 is there any specific threat of retaliation against pro's. There is a request to not use social media to air grievances.

Per the currently existing code of conduct. Minimal, but I also wonder how many pros are aware:

Sanctions
Athletes whose conduct is considered contrary to this Code is subject to penalties, including but not limited to one or more of the following:

  • Letter of reprimand.
  • Disqualification from event.
  • Loss of 500 earned qualifying points from any points ranking in which the Athlete is ranked.
  • Temporary suspension from WTC events—three months.
  • Permanent suspension from WTC events.


Originally from: http://www.ironman.com/...t.aspx#ixzz3ERZSJBNg


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [markg] [ In reply to ]
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markg wrote:
Being business partners assumes equitable exchange between the parties. The problem is that the current perception is the WTC-Pro "partnership" is anything BUT equitable.

Very few business arrangements are 50/50 in terms of equity, even when they are mutually beneficial.

/

Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [snackchair] [ In reply to ]
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snackchair wrote:
Having prize money is what makes it a competitive sport. Without it, it's not a sport. It's a participation event. Like a charity walk. Except the charity in this case is a private company.

Really? So the Olympics are participation events?

How about college or high school sports?
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Hmm so more dialogue but no public griping ?

At least he put his hands up and admitted they blew it with WC 70.3 TV coverage.

So any young up and coming triathletes have to race in stacked fields to earn some corn or go to Challenge/ Rev 3 ?
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Gary Mc] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I guess from an pro side of it, I need to see what they will actually be getting. How will acting as a unified front, get them more money in their pockets.

FYI, I also don't even think this is that big of an issue. If they are worried so much over the whole TRS pay issue, then that's something they need to really look at themselves in the mirror. I don't think many pros actually degrade WTC often. Many raise issues, and if that's what is trying to be censored, ok fine.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the insight.

The pressure on Professional Triathletes must be very intense and I am sure that a lot influences their decisions. A couple of questions...

Why have they not formed an organization to represent them as a group?

Should they not have a better relationship with their sponsors with open discourse about what is better for the sport and ultimately everyone's bottom line?

Why not have approach other race organizations about setting up an alternative world championship?

If all of this is already in the works then great! I can't wait to see the sport grow from such endeavors.

Ready or not here I come!
Coaching NY's Southern Tier
Swift^3
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Givingchase] [ In reply to ]
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Givingchase wrote:
You are completely right. If the Pros would STOP chasing Kona and WTC's trumped up World Championship then that would make a real statement. No pros, no championship event. Instead they whine like a bunch of little kids about not being able to have their cake and eat it too.

If you agree to participate then you agree to follow the rules of the event. If you don't like it, go somewhere else.

The A list pro's can't stop chasing Kona because that's where the money is. And other organizations won't have an easy time with launching a competing product because Kona is where the corporate sponsors are and WTC has a pretty good lock on that. When you're the market equivalent of the 900 pound gorilla you have a responsibility to exercise that power in a reasonable and responsible manner. I do not think. however, that WTC intended to promote any action that would kill their goose. But I also feed my cat too many treats because I love it and that's not good for the cat either. Unintended consequences and this letter is going to expose a lot of those.


---------------------------------------------------------
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"
Last edited by: KonaCoffee: Sep 26, 14 10:50
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Gary Mc] [ In reply to ]
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Gary Mc wrote:
[

Guardian, Are you willing to have all of your personal business, your salary negotiations, your taxes, your will, your disagreements with your family discussed in a public forum? Or are there some things that better handled privately? If you owned a business would you expect that the people you do business with refrain from making negative statements about you in a public forum? Expecting people we work with to behave professionally is not being imperious.

/

I can ask the people in my life to act in a certain way, but unless I am their boss, I can't tell them to act in a certain way. WTC is not an employer of the pros, it is more of a partner. If I had a partner telling me what I can and can't do, there would have to be a large benefit to me to suck it up.

Now, I may be putting too much weight on the exact wording of the communication: perhaps WTC has no intention of trying to order people around, but given the general history of communication from WTC, I doubt it.

For context, I am not a WTC hater. I don't do IM, so I don't think about them very often - negatively or otherwise.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Furious D] [ In reply to ]
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Furious D wrote:
motoguy128 wrote:
tlc13 wrote:
hmmm... sticking the fork in the 1st amendment.


Why does everyone go there. I may not be a lawyer or constitutional scholar, but my educated understanding of it is that it's not an all inclusive right. It is illegal for example to yell "fire" in a crowed place. Slander, Libel, plagiarism, terrorism, harassment, copyrights are other forms of public communication that are illegal and go against a simplistic interpretation of the 1st amendment. You are not free to say or write whatever you want, if it negatively impacts the rights of someone else.

Not really. A professional athlete is essentially an entertainer. The promoter of a private event can have control over it's "performers". They I assume, sign an agreement when they pay their annual registration fee and are essentially being paid to perform since they are receiving a discount on normal entry fees, receive some amount of marketing, promotion from the event without additional fees. Just having their own swim wave start, special color race bibs, etc. though minor, is a form of promotion.

Correct - Much like the second amendment provides you the right to bear arms. It doesn't say that you have the right to bear arms without regulation.

Actually there is that part of the 2nd admendment that mentions that it shall not be infringed... but whatever.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Ellsworth53T] [ In reply to ]
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I am not aware of any contract or agreement that professional triathletes are under with either WTC or any other bodies (USAT, UCI, etc).

I am sure that back when the other leagues were formed, before they started receiving money from TV deals they were paying living wages for all of their athletes too.
I guess NFL players were always paid real well.... even in the 20s-50s. Man those guys signed their NFL contracts and just began living the high life......

As late as the 50s (30+ years after some guys began creating this Football league thing) the average player was getting $6000 a season, if he was playing a whole season.... multiple games instead of 2-4 races. It wasn't until the 70s that players received a minimum salary $9-$10k per season. That took 50 years from the inception of the league, multiple reorganizations, dealing with competing leagues, and some major TV deals.

NASCAR doesn't outright pay a salary to its racers (AFAIK). The drivers are contractors that are paid by their racing team. They are generally paid salary by their sponsors/ race team and receive bonuses by winning races. Why are we not cursing Specialized (which happens all the time anyway) for not paying pro triathletes enough?

Maybe I am off base, but until WTC or another company identifies how to market the event to a TV audience there will not be much of an incentive to pay a salary to athletes.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Givingchase] [ In reply to ]
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Why have they not formed an organization to represent them as a group?

I'm not really sure what a organized group really helps within triathlon. There are no "leagues" where you get paid regardless of how good/bad you race. Triathlon really is independent contractors, so I mean it kinda sounds cool to have a "pro union", but then what's really the benefit? How does it actually get implemented. WTC isn't paying pros to be part of their organization (maybe a few here and there get an appearance fee), but 98% of pros are really on their own. Now it seems like WTC wants to have "their" pros when they want to push them around, but then a month earlier, they'll rip them in public, just like WTC doesn't want them to do.

Should they not have a better relationship with their sponsors with open discourse about what is better for the sport and ultimately everyone's bottom line?

Sponsors will really act no differently than how WTC does, as businesses. So if a sponsor thinks IM race is more valued than HITS or Rev3, then they'll urge the athlete to do that race. This idea that WTC is the only bad guy is false, there are lots of companies out there looking out for themselves instead of the "better for the sport". That mindset needs to go out the window when talking business. So that's the issue. Sponsors and AG'ers are clearly saying IM events are "THE" events in the sport, so the industry as a whole is saying it's IM or nothing.

Why not have approach other race organizations about setting up an alternative world championship?

Good question, but it has a complicated answer. Some don't feel the need to do it right now.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Bootlegger Ben] [ In reply to ]
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Bootlegger Ben wrote:
Furious D wrote:
motoguy128 wrote:
tlc13 wrote:
hmmm... sticking the fork in the 1st amendment.


Why does everyone go there. I may not be a lawyer or constitutional scholar, but my educated understanding of it is that it's not an all inclusive right. It is illegal for example to yell "fire" in a crowed place. Slander, Libel, plagiarism, terrorism, harassment, copyrights are other forms of public communication that are illegal and go against a simplistic interpretation of the 1st amendment. You are not free to say or write whatever you want, if it negatively impacts the rights of someone else.

Not really. A professional athlete is essentially an entertainer. The promoter of a private event can have control over it's "performers". They I assume, sign an agreement when they pay their annual registration fee and are essentially being paid to perform since they are receiving a discount on normal entry fees, receive some amount of marketing, promotion from the event without additional fees. Just having their own swim wave start, special color race bibs, etc. though minor, is a form of promotion.


Correct - Much like the second amendment provides you the right to bear arms. It doesn't say that you have the right to bear arms without regulation.


Actually there is that part of the 2nd admendment that mentions that it shall not be infringed... but whatever.


Infringe: to do something that does not obey or follow (a rule, law, etc); to wrongly limit or restrict (merriam webster)

The second amendments rights have not been wrongly limited or restricted, except perhaps in DC v. Heller (and a couple others) where the Supreme Court ruled that DC could not ban handguns from individuals. They did however note that the right to own a handgun did not come without limits seeing as its probably a bad idea to say anyone can have a gun without infringement, like you know, felons, mentally ill people, 3 year olds, etc.

But similarly to this situation, the WTC has every right to say that you cannot bring a gun to a race. Just like they have the right to say that if you want to participate in our races, you need to follow the code of conduct we set forth.

If you want to bring a gun to a race, find a race that allows them. If you want to be a pro in triathlon and badmouth the race organizers, find a supporting organization that will pay you for performance and not care what you say about them on social media.

But silly me for bringing facts and not slinging random amendments.
Last edited by: Furious D: Sep 26, 14 11:12
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [grindmonkey] [ In reply to ]
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No one is suggesting that triathletes be paid the same as the average annual salary in the nfl ($2 million), mlb ($3 million), or nba ($5 million). But many of us think the sport would be better off if there were higher prize purses.

WTC has obviously had little incentive to pay more or find a television audience. And this is where we as fans can play a role; we can provide that pressure and incentive to do so. And as long as they ignore us, I'll continue to support people like realstarky who will mock and shame them, with the hopes of degrading the ironman brand enough so that age groupers do start to notice and do start to take their business elsewhere.

Fanciful thinking? Not really. WTC is small potatoes in the realm of organizations that have been upended overnight by public outcry.




The Age Group Home on Facebook
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Bootlegger Ben] [ In reply to ]
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And you're both forgetting the first part of that amendment about a 'well regulated militia'. Interpretations abound, but it's mainly the 2nd 1/2 that people cite.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Givingchase] [ In reply to ]
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I am a first-year pro. My season this year did not go very well due to a variety of factors, so I don't have the pull of a stellar palmares, BUT that also puts me in a totally free position.

Even on a local level, it is very difficult to find sponsors or even generate interest in organizations/people who could support athletes. Long course triathlon has an advantage in that the athletes are free-agents – not tied by the bureaucracy of national federations – but that is also a pitfall, as there is no common ground for athletes to meet. ITU short course athletes have a great, proven set up that is used by many other sports, so the support system is there.

Talking with some fellow new pros, a common theme is the desire to work hard and create some value for potential sponsors. No one just wants free swag; we are all looking to build a partnership. But we are all essentially "freelancers", and it's a matter of shooting blindly when trying to build up support. There is no platform for the athletes. This is something that has to change. I know that in the early days, there were a couple attempts at rallying the pros, but it didn't reach very far as a consensus could not be reached. That is really too bad.

It's interesting to note that the race that should actually be the true world championship gets very little attention and a small field: ITU Long Course. ITU is a non profit organization. It handles Olympic qualification and athletes enter the races through their national federation, representing their country. This makes sense. Yet the field at the world's race, year after year, is not very stacked, and the media does not give it the same kind of attention.

Since I am starting out and have nothing to lose, I will be leading an Ironman boycott. I will be racing Challenge/Rev3 and targeting the real World Championships.
The current top professionals are in a tough spot. They can't simply switch; their contracts, sponsors and fans are tied up in Ironman. It's up to the new pros to make changes.

As for value of professional athletes to the sport...that is a very difficult question to answer. I have thought a lot about it this year. What do pros in other sports have to offer? This is the issue with triathlon: other sports are pro only. Triathlon is amateurs + pros on the same day. When you watch a football game, you are watching only the pros. There are local, amateur games/matches/races, but the marketed, televised and otherwise promoted events are pro. Pro triathletes don't have that same pull. I was talking to a local sponsor (with international reach), and he said to me that, "you [pros] don't do much for us; you provide a great story and excitement, but sales and business growth don't come from you." Luckily, I have other, non-sport related, marketable skills that allow me to offer something beyond athleticism, but it is still proving difficult to leverage that and use it to my advantage.

This definitely requires a lot more thought before a good solution can be found. It's frustrating to see other sports pull in millions upon millions, while triathlon is just scraping by.

Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / mikael.racing / @mstaer
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Here's my issue and where I think TRS and I disagree. The higher prizes cant simply come from the race organizers. That's silly to think WTC should just pay out more because they are making money. WTC will pay out more when/if they get a media/tv agreement and more advertising dollars come in. WTC can't even support a full fledged pro circuit on their own, neither could Rev3, Challenge, etc. There is no race organizations that will pay pros more because it should occur. That will only ever happen when/if more media adverstising dollars come into the sport.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
bhc wrote:
This is an article on the economic effect that IM- Kona has on the local economy.

http://www.kpua.net/focus10132003.php

A Department of Business Economic Development and Tourism study concluded that $14.9 million is pumped in to the island economy over Ironman race dates. Utilizing known multiplier effects, that number mushrooms to more than $26 million in total sales resulting in $2.5 million in tax revenues alone...


I have no doubt that Kona has a huge, local economic impact, and that the Chamber, city council, and all powers-that-be locally are hugely supportive of WTC and keeping the event in town.

With that said, these economic impact studies are always hugely exaggerated, and the "multiplier effect" often used to make the numbers sound enormous are a farce. Frankly, $14.9m for Kona does not strike me as unreasonable considering the huge volume of non-athlete vendors and support that come for this prestigious event, so this particular study may have some grounding in reality, but these studies generally need to be drilled into to reveal the overly optimistic assumptions. I remember for IMNYC the economic impact pitched locally worked out to $14,000 per athlete, a number very hard to justify by any optimistic projections of affluent athlete spending or using "multiplier effect".


If anything, I think the numbers stated above in the econ study are undervalued. They only represent the impact during race week. KonaCoffee pointed out in the earlier post about the training groups and athletes that come to Kona to train during weeks the race isn't happening. Add in the tourism generated by the Kona name recognition via the race, I think that the impact of the race could greatly exceed the number quoted.

My question to KonaCoffee is can you really afford to have WTC leave?
Based on this article from 2010, I'm not quite sure you are seeing the big picture. No where in your post did you mention the amount of $ that has been donated to local charities, nor did you consider the economic impact:
According to HI tourism statistics - For the past two years, Kona has averaged ~91k airline visitors in the month of Oct - Ranking it the 8th most popular month of the year to visit Kona. Take away an average of ~10,000 people that attend the race (athletes, family, sponsors, etc) and Oct suddenly loses 11% of it's visitors and becomes the least most visited month of the year.

Additionally, due to the seasonality of the the tourism (Sept - 12th most popular, Oct 8th, Nov 10th), it is logical that hotels and businesses would need to hire temporary help to accommodate the influx of people for the Ironman. Do you care that you are taking jobs away from locals? What about telling local businesses that because you don't like WTC, you are going to make Sept and Oct the least most popular months to visit and remove ~$20 - $25M from the area.

I'm sorry, but you all are in the tourism business...you don't bite the hand that feeds you. I get that you are frustrated with the actions of few, but that frustration is not worth losing that much money. If you aren't happy about the "infractions" of bikers, runners, etc - tell your local police to do a better job of upholding the current laws. Word will get around quickly. Finally, I do think that you have a valid point with your frustration on visitors not respecting the local culture. However, that is not unique to Kona...every tourism center goes through this. The best way to correct the behavior is to educate and hope for the best...not chastise.

**Edit - I saw your other post the previous page and I think that you did end up addressing some of what I wrote above. Additionally, it seems like you did cool down a bit from your original post. My post wasn't mean to start a shoving match, but to someone who grew up on an island that is heavily reliant on tourism, it gets under my skin to hear things in the vain of "Tourists Suck"**
Last edited by: Twotter: Sep 26, 14 11:39
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
And you're both forgetting the first part of that amendment about a 'well regulated militia'. Interpretations abound, but it's mainly the 2nd 1/2 that people cite.

I think the whole "militia" thing has been hashed out with Heller and McDonald.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
craigj532 wrote:

This has nothing to do with "the integrity of the women's race." The pro women had a 25-minute start on the age groupers for years, and it never affected the cut-off times. This is a result of splitting the male and female AG starts, which as we've already discussed was done so WTC could stuff more age groupers into the race and make more money. Make it a mass AG start again, and the cut-off could still be 17:00.


This may have been commented on before my post. But, 2013 was the first year that there was a 25 minute separation between the women pros and age groupers. This year it is at 20 minutes. Depending on how you look at it (I am married to a female pro who has raced Kona) the "integrity of the women's race" changes with the proximity to the male pros and age groupers. It changes because the faster women swimmers get mixed in with the 2nd pro male pack OR the slower women get mixed up with the faster age grouper swimmers. I 'think' that the thought would be that greater separation between women/male pros and pro women and age group men will make the women pro race more fair.

No, that's not what I'm saying. There's been the 25-minute separation between the pro females and the AG race before, and it never necessitated dropping the AG cut-off to 16:45. The only reason the female/AG separation was reduced to 20 minutes this year was because WTC decided to split the AG start into two male/female AG waves. They could keep the 17:00 cut-off, even with a 25-minute female pro/AG gap, if they just eliminated the split AG start. A split start, by the way, that nobody was really asking for and which was done only so that they could eventually cram more people into the race.

What WTC is doing is messing with the race of the 1800+ age group athletes that pay their bills to fix an non-existent problem that, at most, affects 35 female pros.

Start the male pros at 6:30, the female pros at 6:35, and all the age group athletes at 7:00. Just like last year. Done. I just fixed the "problem" and restored integrity to the race.

I'm sorry, I just read this as a giant "f-you" to people like Lew Hollander, Madonna Buder, Harriet Anderson, Karen Aydelot, Rick and Dick Hoyt, etc. Ironman has been happy to use these people as marketing fodder for years in their coverage of the race, and now they're basically eliminating them from contention.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Here's my issue and where I think TRS and I disagree. The higher prizes cant simply come from the race organizers. That's silly to think WTC should just pay out more because they are making money. WTC will pay out more when/if they get a media/tv agreement and more advertising dollars come in. WTC can't even support a full fledged pro circuit on their own, neither could Rev3, Challenge, etc. There is no race organizations that will pay pros more because it should occur. That will only ever happen when/if more media adverstising dollars come into the sport.

I'm not arguing that the extra money should simply come out of wtc's existing coffers. But they are ones best positioned to raise the money from sponsors/television/media. If fans pressure for more pay, wtc can figure out how to get the funds to pay for it.




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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [oceanswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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oceanswimmer wrote:
So how exactly do they expect their pro athletes to "volunteer"?

WTC will provide both financial and logistical support for the volunteer efforts. Things like travel, getting posters printed, etc. WTC is willing to help with that and also to help find opportunities where the event organizer would also help in this regard. Athletes will not be expected to "foot the bill" for volunteer efforts; they are expected to give their time.

A lot has been made about how WTC needs to do more "athlete development." I agree. But I don't think that it should be racing-type development. It should be "how to be more professional" development. That's what this is.

I think it's a huge win for pros. This is exactly the sort of thing that is a very clear value add to sponsors. Much more clear than a race result...


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
oceanswimmer wrote:
So how exactly do they expect their pro athletes to "volunteer"?


WTC will provide both financial and logistical support for the volunteer efforts. Things like travel, getting posters printed, etc. WTC is willing to help with that and also to help find opportunities where the event organizer would also help in this regard. Athletes will not be expected to "foot the bill" for volunteer efforts; they are expected to give their time.

A lot has been made about how WTC needs to do more "athlete development." I agree. But I don't think that it should be racing-type development. It should be "how to be more professional" development. That's what this is.

I think it's a huge win for pros. This is exactly the sort of thing that is a very clear value add to sponsors. Much more clear than a race result...

I agree this can be a good for athlete development, and I've suggested similar things myself. But the devil is in the details. My concern is that wtc will try to get all sponsorship dollars flowing into this program, and away from sponsors working with individual athletes. Then wtc can distribute those dollars as it sees fit to the pros it most favors.

Is that a far stretch from current reality and stated intent? Maybe. But wtc has exhibited its monopolistic tendencies with races. I have every reason to think it will try the same with sponsor dollars.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kny] [ In reply to ]
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The year I was in Hawaii to do the race ( I ended up not racing ), I had no less than 6 people come to Hawaii to watch, they stayed for 10 days to two weeks and went on all sorts of excursions, restaurants, bars, had to find places to stay. Personally I spent close to $3500 for the entire trip, and that was in 2006, before flights, so I don't think you can underestimate the economic impact the race brings to Kona.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Ellsworth53T] [ In reply to ]
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Ellsworth53T wrote:
The athletes are under contract in those leagues and the leagues provide a living wage for the athlete. The triathletes, as far as im aware, are not under any sort of contract with WTC, and WTC certainly doesn't provide a guaranteed wage.

Any pro athlete who holds a WTC pro membership license is under contract. In exchange for a fixed yearly fee, each athlete is free to race as many WTC events as they wish, earn prize money, etc. In exchange, they agree to abide by a code of conduct, be available for drug testing, and some other pretty basic things you'd expect.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev,
Would this be a crazy idea for WTC to consider?

Why not have WTC extend 1 year contracts to the top 25 male & female finishing pro's who in Kona. The contract would run from October 2014-2015 for example.

The contract would offer each pro a $50,000 salary paid in 24 payments over the course of the year (pay check twice a month). Total cost to WTC if they offered that to 50 pro's would be $2.5 Million.

The contract signing would be optional for the pro, because I am sure WTC would only want these athletes racing WTC events. The athlete would still be able to seek out their own sponsorship to help add to their personal income and they would still be eligible to win prize money at WTC races.

The $50,000 dollars would provide these pro's with a stable salary for one year that most should be able to live on and it would be enough to get them to their races. I actually think a lot of these athletes would be making more money than the $50,000, but it might give some of the lower end pro's a little more stability to either help them develop more or make it another year as a pro.

WTC would be able to do several things to strengthen their brand.

1. Lock up the best 25 male and 25 female athletes to only race their events for one year.
2. In the contract the athlete signs, they could require these athletes promote the IM Brand through different options such as charity work, post race events with pros, etc.
3. Better control public communication on social media (facebook, twitter, etc)
4. Use this stable to athletes to have better racing the pro events that pay. For example in his e-mail he mentions 6 races counting for KPR points, imagine only having to do 6 races a year at most with it being a mix of 5150's, 70.3's & 140.6. Longer term (several years from now) I could see there being 4-6 races that are at least similar to 70.3 World Championship followings in terms of competition or even better competition such as what takes place at Kona. This would create a better marketing opportunity for WTC, the possibility of having some 70.3's televised.
5. Under this situation, these athletes could represent the pro's to be "one voice" that WTC interacts with to get feedback, etc.
6. WTC could set a code of conduct for what it expects from "their paid pro's". I read a lot of commentary on here about pro's not acting like professionals, etc. WTC could establish and set standards. This would over time strengthen WTC's brand.
7. Improve competition even more, pro's on the outside of the 25 could become very motivated to make it to Kona and to get their shot at having a $50,000 salary and potentially quit their job for one year and see how they could really do living as a full time pro.

This would require an upfront investment by WTC, but I think in the long term. If they could develop a professional racing event that draws more attention/excitement due better competition there should be value added to the brand. I guess the real question is how long is the payback period and what kind of return on investment will WTC get?

Just curious what you or some others might think of this idea Dev?

I know there would also be some downside, which I am sure I am about to hear about.

1 possible upside for the pro's is that they might be able to use this as an opportunity to create a professional triathlete's association much like the NFL's player association. To an extent they could unionize to negotiate better terms for the pro's.

Anyway just an idea.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I like that they are offering this to the pros, but I'll be curious how much "athlete development" comes from this. With the new structure of money, it's already going to be structured for the better athletes to race and win money, so will it simply be those same athletes getting most of the "volunteer" perks? If a young pro I used to coach, who just did a 70.3 with Rapp applies and goes against Andy Potts, who's IM going to pick? Or are they going to give money out to every pro that applies to volunteer? Of course they'll want to make posters of Rapp, Crowie, Potts vs the 737th ranked pro. So is this just going to be another revenue where the rich get richer, or will this be free for any and every pro to truly take advantage of.

ETA: I guess the response will be, any pro will be given the opportunity to directly network sponsor(s), and that should be payment enough in exchange for the volunteer services they will provide. I think it's great what they are doing with many of these points. I just hope they actually respect the pros enough to make it a good working relationship. I think WTC is great for getting lots of people into the sport, and helps a lot of people, but I also know they are out to make money first and foremost. So, there are some things I'm still skeptical about. With the "censorship", does that mean they are going to actually care to listen to the pros and for a good working relationship? All I envision is the discussions I've had about drafting, is more of a lip service. I hope this really does work for both parties.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Sep 26, 14 12:20
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [cam2win] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
A few questions.

IF WTC spent $2.5mil on those 50 athletes, then I assume all prize money would go away at races. No way they would spend $2.5mil on those 50 pros and then add in another $1.6mil in prize money. So does the points structure just stay the same minus the prize money at each event? It would make for one hell of a race to make the top 25 in Kona each year, that's for sure.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:
oceanswimmer wrote:
So how exactly do they expect their pro athletes to "volunteer"?


WTC will provide both financial and logistical support for the volunteer efforts. Things like travel, getting posters printed, etc. WTC is willing to help with that and also to help find opportunities where the event organizer would also help in this regard. Athletes will not be expected to "foot the bill" for volunteer efforts; they are expected to give their time.

A lot has been made about how WTC needs to do more "athlete development." I agree. But I don't think that it should be racing-type development. It should be "how to be more professional" development. That's what this is.

I think it's a huge win for pros. This is exactly the sort of thing that is a very clear value add to sponsors. Much more clear than a race result...

Clear value add to who's sponsors? WTC's?

BTW, it's not volunteering if it's forced.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Bootlegger Ben] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
And in Heller, Justice Scalia said this (citations removed):

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment , nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.
We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time.” We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.”

So even Scalia (not exactly a squishy liberal) acknowledges that the right set forth in the Second Amendment can be significantly "infringed."
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Furious D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Furious D wrote:
But at the same time the WTC has come to them basically saying - 'hey things between us have sucked and we are admitting that. Here's what we are trying to do to improve things for you. So instead of getting in social media pissing matches, lets work it out internally. If you disagree with what we are doing to make things better, or have other concerns, please go through these people or come to me, the CEO directly. Just please don't go out and fight this battle on social media'.

Except that they (WTC) have not done anything to engender trust. Not many feel they can talk directly to them. And really not many at all in the pro field like Jordan or Crowie as ambassadors. Neither are approachable and both have sycophantic tendencies to WTC. Some of us are trying to get PROTA going again and to have a real outside representation body. On the con call in August Andrew pleaded for an outside group that they could work with.

________________________
34 kona qualifiers 2006-'18 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Foras Maps: Race Discovery made easy | Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
After reading the letter I was pretty shocked that the total prize money was only $1.6mm for the year. I'm not sure what WTC costs look like, but it looks like AZ 2014 participant list was about 1200 people each paying say $700. So that's $840,000 of revenue for Arizona and there's 80 races each year.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [cam2win] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
cam2win wrote:
Dev,
Would this be a crazy idea for WTC to consider?

Why not have WTC extend 1 year contracts to the top 25 male & female finishing pro's who in Kona. The contract would run from October 2014-2015 for example.

The contract would offer each pro a $50,000 salary paid in 24 payments over the course of the year (pay check twice a month). Total cost to WTC if they offered that to 50 pro's would be $2.5 Million.

The contract signing would be optional for the pro, because I am sure WTC would only want these athletes racing WTC events. The athlete would still be able to seek out their own sponsorship to help add to their personal income and they would still be eligible to win prize money at WTC races.

The $50,000 dollars would provide these pro's with a stable salary for one year that most should be able to live on and it would be enough to get them to their races. I actually think a lot of these athletes would be making more money than the $50,000, but it might give some of the lower end pro's a little more stability to either help them develop more or make it another year as a pro.

WTC would be able to do several things to strengthen their brand.

1. Lock up the best 25 male and 25 female athletes to only race their events for one year.
2. In the contract the athlete signs, they could require these athletes promote the IM Brand through different options such as charity work, post race events with pros, etc.
3. Better control public communication on social media (facebook, twitter, etc)
4. Use this stable to athletes to have better racing the pro events that pay. For example in his e-mail he mentions 6 races counting for KPR points, imagine only having to do 6 races a year at most with it being a mix of 5150's, 70.3's & 140.6. Longer term (several years from now) I could see there being 4-6 races that are at least similar to 70.3 World Championship followings in terms of competition or even better competition such as what takes place at Kona. This would create a better marketing opportunity for WTC, the possibility of having some 70.3's televised.
5. Under this situation, these athletes could represent the pro's to be "one voice" that WTC interacts with to get feedback, etc.
6. WTC could set a code of conduct for what it expects from "their paid pro's". I read a lot of commentary on here about pro's not acting like professionals, etc. WTC could establish and set standards. This would over time strengthen WTC's brand.
7. Improve competition even more, pro's on the outside of the 25 could become very motivated to make it to Kona and to get their shot at having a $50,000 salary and potentially quit their job for one year and see how they could really do living as a full time pro.

This would require an upfront investment by WTC, but I think in the long term. If they could develop a professional racing event that draws more attention/excitement due better competition there should be value added to the brand. I guess the real question is how long is the payback period and what kind of return on investment will WTC get?

Just curious what you or some others might think of this idea Dev?

I know there would also be some downside, which I am sure I am about to hear about.

1 possible upside for the pro's is that they might be able to use this as an opportunity to create a professional triathlete's association much like the NFL's player association. To an extent they could unionize to negotiate better terms for the pro's.

Anyway just an idea.

Re-read each of your 7 bullets and after each ask yourself, "How does this benefit WTC?"

Last I checked WTC doesn't have a problem with its brand. After all, they are so entrenched in the culture they can sell us "Home Decor".

The sooner people come to terms with the fact that triathlon is not about the pros, it's about the age groupers, the sooner these people will live happier lives.

I'd encourage anyone who disagrees with this last statement to come to the MOP/BOP where we live and talk to us or race in our world. At the swim start, we are not talking about the pros, we are encouraging each other that we can handle to choppy water. On the bike, we are not wondering how many watts Macca pushed, we're trying to not ride our bike off the road. On the run, we're not thinking about Rinny's IM marathon split, we're doing the math to decide how fast we have to walk to finish in 17 hours.

The fact is WTC is a gigantic entity that serves a massive triathlete population, of which pros and elite AGers is the smallest part. The rest of us are just a squirrel trying to get our own nut and what the pros do does not matter and will never matter to us. We don't care what races pros attend. We race the one that fits our location and work schedule. We don't care how competitive the field is because we start 10 minutes behind the "race" and will finish hours after.

Again, before you respond, schedule a race and come to the BOP. Ask us a few questions. It won't take long before you understand why WTC operates the way it does.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
My theory above is that the total out of pocket cost would then be $3.6 Million.

I feel you would need to pay at the races because there would be other pro's that are not part of the top 25 male and females that need to be able to earn prize money or a paycheck.

This program would let WTC lock in the best athletes and most likely hold them to a higher level as a professional athlete.

Other ideas could be what if WTC held lotteries for their paid pro's regarding which races they might have to attend. While in the past if you were a pro and you knew you didn't want to race Macca you just didn't go to that race, now it was all a matter of a drawing of some kind. Maybe this might be something for like half of the required races. This might also let WTC market to cities that we will have 5 of our top 25 male and 5 of our top 25 female pro's racing at your event. While maybe not earth shattering right now, over time (think long-term) it could be good selling point to host WTC events.

My thought here is, if WTC could get more money through these types of avenues that it recoups the cost to pay these 50 athletes. $3.6 Million is a $300,000 monthly spend with it being broken out over 12 months. This is not earth shattering expensive for WTC. They would however have to develop a plan that would boost their revenues to make something like this worth their while.


I also think in the long run WTC would better position the Ironman Brand as the NFL of Triathlon. I know that it's already there, but this would solidify it. Chalenge/Rev 3 could never match it. Challenge would become the Canadian Football League of Professional Triathlon Racing at the long course distance. Before anyone jumps on the hate wagon, this would only be at the professional level and say nothing about the age group racing events.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [CaptainJeff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
CaptainJeff wrote:
Competitive sports do not, in any way, need to have money associated with winning.

For some, the act of winning is what drives their competition.

As it should.

By this definition, high school sports would be "participation events" and not "competitive sport." Heck, same with NCAA college football.

You meant for that to be in pink right? So basically the only people that can excel at being awesome in a sport are those that can afford to not work and just fuck around. Kinda like the Olympics 100 years ago. Yeah, that'll really give us the true best in a sport.

________________________
34 kona qualifiers 2006-'18 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Foras Maps: Race Discovery made easy | Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Mark,

I'm trying to understand how a pro union would work. I guess it's good to say "we as a pro sport feel XYZ", but don't unions work when they actually have a say in things? People always seem to say the pros need to do more together, but I'm trying to figure out how that actually can be of any real world significance. I guess what I'm asking, what backing would an pro union have? I think it can help, but I don't think it can really help all that much, if that makes sense. Seems more of a cute "in name only" stance, so to speak. And maybe that's enough, just curious how affective an pro union is, when the sport is as fractured as it in with race companies.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
MarkyV wrote:
Furious D wrote:

But at the same time the WTC has come to them basically saying - 'hey things between us have sucked and we are admitting that. Here's what we are trying to do to improve things for you. So instead of getting in social media pissing matches, lets work it out internally. If you disagree with what we are doing to make things better, or have other concerns, please go through these people or come to me, the CEO directly. Just please don't go out and fight this battle on social media'.


Except that they (WTC) have not done anything to engender trust. Not many feel they can talk directly to them. And really not many at all in the pro field like Jordan or Crowie as ambassadors. Neither are approachable and both have sycophantic tendencies to WTC. Some of us are trying to get PROTA going again and to have a real outside representation body. On the con call in August Andrew pleaded for an outside group that they could work with.

Ok - but devil's advocate, what have the pros done to foster a better relationship? Serious question. I'm not that wrapped up in pros so I don't know the history. Seems like a couple who do try to have that positive relationship with WTC are being hailed as turning their back on the fellow pros.

Your own signature promotes that you have qualified 26 people for Kona, so obviously the brand is important to you and to grow your business. So what good comes from a social media rebellion against WTC?
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [quid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
quid wrote:
After reading the letter I was pretty shocked that the total prize money was only $1.6mm for the year. I'm not sure what WTC costs look like, but it looks like AZ 2014 participant list was about 1200 people each paying say $700. So that's $840,000 of revenue for Arizona and there's 80 races each year.

1200? Arizona has around 3000 entrants. 2644 finishers in 2013.

------------------------
Cornwall (Ontario) Triathlon
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [quid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
quid wrote:
After reading the letter I was pretty shocked that the total prize money was only $1.6mm for the year. I'm not sure what WTC costs look like, but it looks like AZ 2014 participant list was about 1200 people each paying say $700. So that's $840,000 of revenue for Arizona and there's 80 races each year.

1200 people? Try double that. Or more.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Furious D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
what have the pros done to foster a better relationship?
_________

They caused one of IM's biggest competitors (Rev3) to give up on trying to get pros to race their races. IM says jump, the pros respond with "how high"? So what if a few every now and then jump back at them on social media. They already dictate a lot.
ETA: The pros are just like AGers in that they will follow IM to the end of the earth (industry is pushing for that).

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Sep 26, 14 12:49
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 
No.
"Competitive sport" does not equal "can make a living doing this."
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kny] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sorry sorry... it's 2,550 on this pdf. Had a brain fart.

http://www.ironman.com/~/media/bd49d7ebd59d4f97bc1424e77a1e22ac/arizona%20participant%20list%203.pdf




So 2550 * 700 is $1.78mm in entry fees. That's the total professional purse for the year in revenue from one race...
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bryancd wrote:
It is worth noting that no where in #5 is there any specific threat of retaliation against pro's. There is a request to not use social media to air grievances.


It is implied. There stands a policy of retaliation for going against big brothers wishes.



(ETA: have been slowly working my thru the thread and noticed Brandon updated you)

________________________
34 kona qualifiers 2006-'18 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Foras Maps: Race Discovery made easy | Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
Last edited by: MarkyV: Sep 26, 14 13:30
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
What I am talking about requires you to take a look at how can WTC grow it's revenues?

Professional racing is no where near it's potential

If WTC can grow the Professional racing line of it's business (the growth would be very profitable to them). Most likely this growth will require TV or more media coverage of some type. To get to that point they need to develop that line of their business and that will require investment. Like in many businesses this is a risk and it might not pay off. However in professional racing's current state it is not good enough to get additional TV coverage outside of Kona and from reading that letter 70.3 WC.

WTC is in the business of making money and currently it makes a lot of money from us age group athletes, which it has earned. My question is how much more can the age group revenue grow? For example there are a lot of 140.6 Ironman races in North America that have open registration right now and that are not sold out. I don't by any means think age group racing is at capacity, I think as Messick has stated their opportunity over seas looks really good.

However, all that being said, the real big money to be made is if WTC can get more races on TV and bring in those ad dollars. It all works in a cycle, people see the race on TV (a lot of us have been inspired by the NBC broadcast and now want to go to Kona) they then somehow find their way to triathlon, then find their way to Ironman. While to a certain degree the pro race isn't "pretty", those people are out there suffering a ton, but to the guy on the couch at home they don't know that. They also don't know that when they do their first Ironman there is a good chance they spend a good portion of their race on the run just shuffling along, looking nothing like the pro's they see on TV. These Pro's are marketing that look of the Ironman that a lot of age groupers in some way admire or aspire to be. Andreas Ralert, Crowie or Mirinda running in Kona are examples that come to mind.

Anyway WTC is about making money and growing their business. If they can grow the professional racing area that would be a big deal for the sport in general and could be very lucrative to their bottom line which is what they are all about.

Remember many other businesses we all love would grow, bike shops are an example and all the companies that sell us products. As they say, a rising tide lifts all boats. Ironman is that tide.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:
oceanswimmer wrote:
So how exactly do they expect their pro athletes to "volunteer"?


WTC will provide both financial and logistical support for the volunteer efforts. Things like travel, getting posters printed, etc. WTC is willing to help with that and also to help find opportunities where the event organizer would also help in this regard. Athletes will not be expected to "foot the bill" for volunteer efforts; they are expected to give their time.

A lot has been made about how WTC needs to do more "athlete development." I agree. But I don't think that it should be racing-type development. It should be "how to be more professional" development. That's what this is.

I think it's a huge win for pros. This is exactly the sort of thing that is a very clear value add to sponsors. Much more clear than a race result...

But what about other race organizations that could benefit from pros volunteering at their events? For example, WTC Pro A is asked by the triathlon club in his hometown to do a swim clinic for beginners. Since it's old friends, Pro A is doing it for basically nothing - they cover Pro A's expenses. WTC suggests that Pro A does an appearance at an WTC-approved event the same day, a couple of states away, and they'll comp travel expenses. Which does Pro A do?

If Pro A chooses to stick with the locals, does he piss off the WTC? Do they need to approve his volunteering?

If Pro A does the WTC event, the locals will be disappointed. Does that really do anything to help the health of "our sport" as Mr. Messick seems to like to describe it? I don't think so.

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I know I have said it many times but will say it again. Anyone who wants to get more "something", needs to get more visible and market themselves. I know a lot of the pros just feel that somehow by just showing
up to a race they have done their part. Sorry, does nothing for me.

As I continue to say, my wife and I volunteer at maybe 20 to 30 races a season. We are visible. Folks talk with us all the time. For Challenge Rancho Cordova, we both will help in the morning at T1.
Then we drive over to T2 where she helps the rest of the day and I will be doing the run portion of a relay team. Will this be the best for my race? Nope. But races need help.

I never would enter a race because of a Pro. (Now, if it were Lance, yep. If it were some of the ITU studs like I saw race at Edmonton, yes). But I still believe that anyone who wants to be able
to say they can add value for a sponsor, get out there and be visible. Help before the race. Help after the race. Man a booth. Be an Official. Try things rather than all the excuses of why nothing would work!

Oh well, nothing is going to change in this sports. Folks just do not get it.

The folks who make the most in society get it from their brain, not brawn.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DJRed wrote:
Re-read each of your 7 bullets and after each ask yourself, "How does this benefit WTC?"

Last I checked WTC doesn't have a problem with its brand. After all, they are so entrenched in the culture they can sell us "Home Decor".

The sooner people come to terms with the fact that triathlon is not about the pros, it's about the age groupers, the sooner these people will live happier lives.

I'd encourage anyone who disagrees with this last statement to come to the MOP/BOP where we live and talk to us or race in our world. At the swim start, we are not talking about the pros, we are encouraging each other that we can handle to choppy water. On the bike, we are not wondering how many watts Macca pushed, we're trying to not ride our bike off the road. On the run, we're not thinking about Rinny's IM marathon split, we're doing the math to decide how fast we have to walk to finish in 17 hours.

The fact is WTC is a gigantic entity that serves a massive triathlete population, of which pros and elite AGers is the smallest part. The rest of us are just a squirrel trying to get our own nut and what the pros do does not matter and will never matter to us. We don't care what races pros attend. We race the one that fits our location and work schedule. We don't care how competitive the field is because we start 10 minutes behind the "race" and will finish hours after.

Again, before you respond, schedule a race and come to the BOP. Ask us a few questions. It won't take long before you understand why WTC operates the way it does.

I understand your perspective; I've been there. And I understand why wtc operates the way it does--because it's focused only on the short term money provided by BOP/MOP racers.

And this is precisely why neither you nor wtc can be trusted to look out for the best interests of the sport. You have an admittedly selfish focus--you don't care about anyone other than yourself and others of your abilities. Likewise, wtc doesn't care about anything other than getting you and the rest of the BOP/MOP to sign up for more races next year.

But if you stick around the sport long enough, you may gain a longer term perspective, and realize that it's in the best interest of the sport to care about more than the BOP/MOP, even though those people are a minority. Or you might realize that the tyranny of the majority (ie: doing things without regard to others, simply because you can) is not a really great way to go through life.




The Age Group Home on Facebook
Twitter jokes
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
So they want all the athletes to stfu and fall in line? 10-4 WTC!

I wonder if in the small print they are forbidden to have any contact or communication with #TheRealStarky ?

************************
#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It is implied. There stands a policy of retaliation for going against big brothers wishes.
_______________________________________________________
Blog - @MarkyV - Currently Accepting New Athletes : 26 kona qualifiers 2010-'14

But you don't mind making money off of WTC's back. Weaksauce.

/


Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
KonaCoffee wrote:
The 16:45 change actually is nothing more than a stupid solution to a non-existent problem which has beome rather typical of WTC under its current management.

But since you asked here you ho:

They've over stayed their welcome by many years. They take resources from our community and expect to be thanked.

They get special priveleges in conducting their for profit business on our state owned pier and state owned ocean. Guess what? That's not allowed! No other organization charging any fee for any reason whatsoever is allowed to use our pier or state beach access to the ocean unless they're boating related businesses with a permit. That includes all the tri camps, all the swim clinics, local triathlon clubs, and other for profit but smaller races -- all of them. Only WTC Gets away with this. It's been enforced against everyone except WTC. Enforce it against them as well. Or ate they just special and entitled like their athletes of late?

They seriously restrict travel over a large swath of our island on race day. In some places for well over 24 hours.

Their customers have become increasingly rude to locals over the last 5 years in particular.. They run red lights on their bycycles, they don't bother to stop at stop signs, they do more than encroach on the traffic lanes -- they flat out ride in large groups well inside traffic lanes. Somebody is s going to get killed and my sympathy is almost certainly going to be with the hapless driver.

And it's not just bikers. Every year I see numerous instances of runners stopping traffic during rush hour so they don't have to stop and wait for the walk sign during their runs. It's beyond ignorance, it intentional. Never ever see that outside of this time of the year.

WTC pays lip service to the safety issues. And it gets worse every year.

And then there's the travesty of how locals can't even race in the only long course triathlon here without going into the lottery. Big Island residents used to at least be able to compete for our slots. That was taken away as well. Now we get to put our names in a hat instead.

And every year the locals have to put up with way too many of the 1800+ athletes telling us how we ought to do things in Hawaii. And almost none of them have the slightest respect for the host culture.

Then there's the way you could say WTC treated a nice little 70.3 race out here by not just eliminating any pro purse for a June race but eliminating all 70.3 Championship points for the pros.

WTC behaves as if this is their company town. It's not, it's ours. The people that live here own it. I used to say that the town was split in 3s regarding this race. 1/3 wanted it in town, 1/3 wanted it to leave and 1/3 doesn't care. Only that last third hasn't changed. I know few people, including triathletes, who want it to stay now. Most now would send Itonman packing given the chance.


That's the short list.

Great points, especially how racers have no respect for the rules of the road and respect for others. I saw the same thing by way too many when the 70.3 WC was in Henderson/Vegas

************************
#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AlwaysCurious wrote:
DJRed wrote:

Re-read each of your 7 bullets and after each ask yourself, "How does this benefit WTC?"

Last I checked WTC doesn't have a problem with its brand. After all, they are so entrenched in the culture they can sell us "Home Decor".

The sooner people come to terms with the fact that triathlon is not about the pros, it's about the age groupers, the sooner these people will live happier lives.

I'd encourage anyone who disagrees with this last statement to come to the MOP/BOP where we live and talk to us or race in our world. At the swim start, we are not talking about the pros, we are encouraging each other that we can handle to choppy water. On the bike, we are not wondering how many watts Macca pushed, we're trying to not ride our bike off the road. On the run, we're not thinking about Rinny's IM marathon split, we're doing the math to decide how fast we have to walk to finish in 17 hours.

The fact is WTC is a gigantic entity that serves a massive triathlete population, of which pros and elite AGers is the smallest part. The rest of us are just a squirrel trying to get our own nut and what the pros do does not matter and will never matter to us. We don't care what races pros attend. We race the one that fits our location and work schedule. We don't care how competitive the field is because we start 10 minutes behind the "race" and will finish hours after.

Again, before you respond, schedule a race and come to the BOP. Ask us a few questions. It won't take long before you understand why WTC operates the way it does.


I understand your perspective; I've been there. And I understand why wtc operates the way it does--because it's focused only on the short term money provided by BOP/MOP racers.

And this is precisely why neither you nor wtc can be trusted to look out for the best interests of the sport. You have an admittedly selfish focus--you don't care about anyone other than yourself and others of your abilities. Likewise, wtc doesn't care about anything other than getting you and the rest of the BOP/MOP to sign up for more races next year.

But if you stick around the sport long enough, you may gain a longer term perspective, and realize that it's in the best interest of the sport to care about more than the BOP/MOP, even though those people are a minority. Or you might realize that the tyranny of the majority (ie: doing things without regard to others, simply because you can) is not a really great way to go through life.

I just raced IMMD. There were no pros. The race was just fine. My day was great. I have no less than 100 Facebook likes on pictures. I have told my training and raceday stories to no less than 100 people. I spent almost $300 on IM gear to remember the day and I've yet to order any of my course pictures. I'll continue to talk to anyone who will listen about what a great day and accomplishment this was for me and my family. I suspect there are 1500 or so other finishers from IMMD who are in the same boat with the same story.

Explain to me again the selfishness and tyranny of all this? Explain to me again about how my sharing of this amazing experience is not good for the sport?

By the way, I've been asked a lot of questions about the race by friends and family. Everything from "Was I scared" to "Did I pee on the bike" to "Was the water cold". You know what nobody has asked me either after the race or during my months of training: "Which pros were at the race?" Hell, I don't even think people realize there's a winner in IM races.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
Mark,

I'm trying to understand how a pro union would work. I guess it's good to say "we as a pro sport feel XYZ", but don't unions work when they actually have a say in things? People always seem to say the pros need to do more together, but I'm trying to figure out how that actually can be of any real world significance. I guess what I'm asking, what backing would an pro union have? I think it can help, but I don't think it can really help all that much, if that makes sense. Seems more of a cute "in name only" stance, so to speak. And maybe that's enough, just curious how affective an pro union is, when the sport is as fractured as it in with race companies.

Andrew wants there to be a group. As much as I would love for the group to be able to grow on its own, the fact that it might be anointed such position by WTC to be the catalyst that gets it to grow is fine by me. Through this group negotiations on best case scenarios governing professional field would transpire.

________________________
34 kona qualifiers 2006-'18 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Foras Maps: Race Discovery made easy | Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Furious D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Furious D wrote:
Ok - but devil's advocate, what have the pros done to foster a better relationship? Serious question. I'm not that wrapped up in pros so I don't know the history. Seems like a couple who do try to have that positive relationship with WTC are being hailed as turning their back on the fellow pros.
Most? Largely nothing. I'm not of the opinion that those ambassadors that work with WTC have altruism at heart. Thus the desire for a more independent collaborative body to work and negotiate on the various topics.

Furious D wrote:
Your own signature promotes that you have qualified 26 people for Kona, so obviously the brand is important to you and to grow your business. So what good comes from a social media rebellion against WTC?
I think it more the heavy handiness and wording. Ala, it's more a symptom of them doing things wrong than really asking for an outpouring of grievances. Challenge and Rev and Lifetime don't have issues with dissent.... so why might WTC need to implement a stated program against it?

________________________
34 kona qualifiers 2006-'18 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Foras Maps: Race Discovery made easy | Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [CaptainJeff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
CaptainJeff wrote:

No.
"Competitive sport" does not equal "can make a living doing this."

then explain to me how some poor ass jamaican is going to be able to compete against rich white boy in the 100m in the olympics if no money is involved.

ETA: now the title will be.... "fastest dude in the world that can afford free time to train" Which is really bull shit. The human race loves their champions and especially when they know that the very best are the ones winning.

________________________
34 kona qualifiers 2006-'18 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Foras Maps: Race Discovery made easy | Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
Last edited by: MarkyV: Sep 26, 14 13:29
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Gary Mc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes, because the world is simply black and white. /pink


When was the last time you saw Challenge or Rev or Lifetime institute draconian measures? I don't think I'm asking for much here. Transparency is kind of a nice thing ya know.

________________________
34 kona qualifiers 2006-'18 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Foras Maps: Race Discovery made easy | Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
> I know a lot of the pros just feel that somehow by just showing up to a race they have done their part. Sorry, does nothing for me.

I'm the opposite. I care about the performance and almost nothing else. I don't care what equipment they use what charity they support or their marketing blather. Marginal fluff. Sorry, does nothing for me.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
KonaCoffee wrote:
The 16:45 change actually is nothing more than a stupid solution to a non-existent problem which has beome rather typical of WTC under its current management.


But since you asked here you ho:

They've over stayed their welcome by many years. They take resources from our community and expect to be thanked.

They get special priveleges in conducting their for profit business on our state owned pier and state owned ocean. Guess what? That's not allowed! No other organization charging any fee for any reason whatsoever is allowed to use our pier or state beach access to the ocean unless they're boating related businesses with a permit. That includes all the tri camps, all the swim clinics, local triathlon clubs, and other for profit but smaller races -- all of them. Only WTC Gets away with this. It's been enforced against everyone except WTC. Enforce it against them as well. Or ate they just special and entitled like their athletes of late?

They seriously restrict travel over a large swath of our island on race day. In some places for well over 24 hours.

Their customers have become increasingly rude to locals over the last 5 years in particular.. They run red lights on their bycycles, they don't bother to stop at stop signs, they do more than encroach on the traffic lanes -- they flat out ride in large groups well inside traffic lanes. Somebody is s going to get killed and my sympathy is almost certainly going to be with the hapless driver.

And it's not just bikers. Every year I see numerous instances of runners stopping traffic during rush hour so they don't have to stop and wait for the walk sign during their runs. It's beyond ignorance, it intentional. Never ever see that outside of this time of the year.

WTC pays lip service to the safety issues. And it gets worse every year.

And then there's the travesty of how locals can't even race in the only long course triathlon here without going into the lottery. Big Island residents used to at least be able to compete for our slots. That was taken away as well. Now we get to put our names in a hat instead.

And every year the locals have to put up with way too many of the 1800+ athletes telling us how we ought to do things in Hawaii. And almost none of them have the slightest respect for the host culture.

Then there's the way you could say WTC treated a nice little 70.3 race out here by not just eliminating any pro purse for a June race but eliminating all 70.3 Championship points for the pros.

WTC behaves as if this is their company town. It's not, it's ours. The people that live here own it. I used to say that the town was split in 3s regarding this race. 1/3 wanted it in town, 1/3 wanted it to leave and 1/3 doesn't care. Only that last third hasn't changed. I know few people, including triathletes, who want it to stay now. Most now would send Itonman packing given the chance.


That's the short list.

I was in Oahu this past Christmas break a few days before Obama regime arrived. Talking with some locals, they despised this, for some of the reasons you mentioned. Oahu being such a small island and having Obama there causes a huge economic disruption. Logistics on Oahu are already a nightmare, add in a Presidential visit and it turns the island into gridlock. The bar we were at lays off a few people while Obama is in town and pays for a hotel for others. Just so they can get to work.

I can't imagine how bad Kona gets with 1800 type-a personalities running around in such a small island. I can definitely understand why some would be happy to see it go.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DJRed wrote:

I just raced IMMD. There were no pros. The race was just fine. My day was great. I have no less than 100 Facebook likes on pictures. I have told my training and raceday stories to no less than 100 people. I spent almost $300 on IM gear to remember the day and I've yet to order any of my course pictures. I'll continue to talk to anyone who will listen about what a great day and accomplishment this was for me and my family. I suspect there are 1500 or so other finishers from IMMD who are in the same boat with the same story.

Explain to me again the selfishness and tyranny of all this? Explain to me again about how my sharing of this amazing experience is not good for the sport?

By the way, I've been asked a lot of questions about the race by friends and family. Everything from "Was I scared" to "Did I pee on the bike" to "Was the water cold". You know what nobody has asked me either after the race or during my months of training: "Which pros were at the race?" Hell, I don't even think people realize there's a winner in IM races.


It sounds like you had a great day, and you've engaged a lot of friends and family. You've probably even inspired some to start triathlon. That's all good for the sport.

The selfish part is that you don't care about anyone other than beginners and/or MOP racers. The tyrannical part is your open disdain for those who don't fit in your "category" of participants. You not only don't care about pros & FOP amateurs, you seem to wish that they didn't even exist.

And the reason it's tyrannical is that when the mass majority doesn't care about one segment of a population, it has the power to drive that segment out. I've seen it happen in countless running races when a competitive no-frills race becomes popular with beginners. First it's all good, but then the race becomes more and more focused on the beginners (because that's where the money is), and forgets about the minority of people who race competitively (and actually crowds them out). Soon, there's nothing of the race left for the competitive people. Over, and over and over this has happened in the past 15 years.

Look, there's room enough in triathlon for all "categories" of racers. I've welcomed and encouraged more beginners to the sport than you have "likes" on your facebook IM finisher photo. All I ask is that you respect that there needs to be a place for all levels of competitors. You don't have to care about them. But respect the fact that others do care.

For when you come on a forum and repeatedly advocate that triathlon has no need for pros, you are being selfish, exclusionary, and tyrannical. And that pisses me off, and makes me sometimes wonder why I'm so eager to welcome beginners to sport. Because while overall triathlete numbers continue to grow, that vast majority is crowding out some crucial segments of the population.




The Age Group Home on Facebook
Twitter jokes
Last edited by: AlwaysCurious: Sep 26, 14 13:40
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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The whole issue I have with all of this, is to me WTC doesn't have a lot to stand on. Meaning, I wish they would show me more in how they are going to directly give back in addition to implementing all these scare tactics. Rapp talked about a few of the things with the volunteer services, but to me it's not in WTC's DNA to "give back", especially with the pros. Or maybe I'm just very skeptical with how this will all play out. I like what some of the things they are saying, I kinda shrug at other things, but if it really does help WTC/pros get more exposure, that's going to be a huge benefit for everyone. Am I drinking the IM Kool-Aid just yet? Not yet.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
MarkyV wrote:
Yes, because the world is simply black and white. /pink


When was the last time you saw Challenge or Rev or Lifetime institute draconian measures? I don't think I'm asking for much here. Transparency is kind of a nice thing ya know.

Please, draconian? Transparency is nice and so is professionalism. All sports have professional codes of conduct. No where did Andrew say there could not be dissent. No where did he say pros can't use social media. What he said was that the internal issues between WTC and the pros should not be hashed out in a public forum. It's reasonable and professional.

/

Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [TheGupster] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
One of my freshman geography professors and I would go kayaking when I went to App State. One day we were talking about some kayak magazine deciding the cover. It was either going to be one of the spots we used frequently or someone else in the country. I was stoked we were about go go "big time" with the area, and he was hoping like hell it didn't make the cover. He mentioned how popular it would become, etc., so the moral of story, be careful what you wish for. Grass isn't always greener on other side. Lots of +/- with tourism.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Gary Mc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Gary Mc wrote:
What he said was that the internal issues between WTC and the pros should not be hashed out in a public forum.

/

What he says and how he acts are two different things. While he espouses such openness does he in fact listen to input???? (only sorta)

________________________
34 kona qualifiers 2006-'18 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Foras Maps: Race Discovery made easy | Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [vancity] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I love the censorship part. Much like the rest of corporate America, WTC makes communist look like amateurs.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AlwaysCurious wrote:
DJRed wrote:

I just raced IMMD. There were no pros. The race was just fine. My day was great. I have no less than 100 Facebook likes on pictures. I have told my training and raceday stories to no less than 100 people. I spent almost $300 on IM gear to remember the day and I've yet to order any of my course pictures. I'll continue to talk to anyone who will listen about what a great day and accomplishment this was for me and my family. I suspect there are 1500 or so other finishers from IMMD who are in the same boat with the same story.

Explain to me again the selfishness and tyranny of all this? Explain to me again about how my sharing of this amazing experience is not good for the sport?

By the way, I've been asked a lot of questions about the race by friends and family. Everything from "Was I scared" to "Did I pee on the bike" to "Was the water cold". You know what nobody has asked me either after the race or during my months of training: "Which pros were at the race?" Hell, I don't even think people realize there's a winner in IM races.


It sounds like you had a great day, and you've engaged a lot of friends and family. You've probably even inspired some to start triathlon. That's all good for the sport.

The selfish part is that you don't care about anyone other than beginners and/or MOP racers. The tyrannical part is your open disdain for those who don't fit in your "category" of participants. You not only don't care about pros & FOP amateurs, you seem to wish that they didn't even exist.

And the reason it's tyrannical is that when the mass majority doesn't care about one segment of a population, it has the power to drive that segment out. I've seen it happen in countless running races when a competitive no-frills race becomes popular with beginners. First it's all good, but then the race becomes more and more focused on the beginners (because that's where the money is), and forgets about the minority of people who race competitively (and actually crowds them out). Soon, there's nothing of the race left for the competitive people. Over, and over and over this has happened in the past 15 years.

Look, there's room enough in triathlon for all "categories" of racers. I've welcomed and encouraged more beginners to the sport than you have "likes" on your facebook IM finisher photo. All I ask is that you respect that there needs to be a place for all levels of competitors. You don't have to care about them. But respect the fact that others do care.

For when you come on a forum and repeatedly advocate that triathlon has no need for pros, you are being selfish, exclusionary, and tyrannical. And that pisses me off, and makes me sometimes wonder why I'm so eager to welcome beginners to sport. Because while overall triathlete numbers continue to grow, that vast majority is crowding out some crucial segments of the population.

...and the above is exactly where you are wrong.

I do not have disdain for pros and I am not trying to drive them out in any way. What I do have disdain for is people who tell me I need to support the pros becuase they are the lifeblood of the sport. They are not. This is easily proven by realizing that if for the next 10 years only the pros raced IM, IM would fold. Conversely, what would happen if only AGers raced IM for the next 10 years? I know you get that.

Additionally, just becuase they can do it faster than I can doesn't somehow make them more entitled to do it in AMERICA.

So let's agree there's room for all of us. However, the concept that one group needs to be subsidized because they have decided to do this for a living is outrageous. That concept, I have disdain for.
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Post deleted by sportstats [ In reply to ]
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [craigj532] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Craig, KONA numbers have been exactly the same the last 3 years....the 2 waves have nothing to do with increasing numbers...
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AlwaysCurious wrote:
DJRed wrote:

I just raced IMMD. There were no pros. The race was just fine. My day was great. I have no less than 100 Facebook likes on pictures. I have told my training and raceday stories to no less than 100 people. I spent almost $300 on IM gear to remember the day and I've yet to order any of my course pictures. I'll continue to talk to anyone who will listen about what a great day and accomplishment this was for me and my family. I suspect there are 1500 or so other finishers from IMMD who are in the same boat with the same story.

Explain to me again the selfishness and tyranny of all this? Explain to me again about how my sharing of this amazing experience is not good for the sport?

By the way, I've been asked a lot of questions about the race by friends and family. Everything from "Was I scared" to "Did I pee on the bike" to "Was the water cold". You know what nobody has asked me either after the race or during my months of training: "Which pros were at the race?" Hell, I don't even think people realize there's a winner in IM races.


It sounds like you had a great day, and you've engaged a lot of friends and family. You've probably even inspired some to start triathlon. That's all good for the sport.

The selfish part is that you don't care about anyone other than beginners and/or MOP racers. The tyrannical part is your open disdain for those who don't fit in your "category" of participants. You not only don't care about pros & FOP amateurs, you seem to wish that they didn't even exist.

And the reason it's tyrannical is that when the mass majority doesn't care about one segment of a population, it has the power to drive that segment out. I've seen it happen in countless running races when a competitive no-frills race becomes popular with beginners. First it's all good, but then the race becomes more and more focused on the beginners (because that's where the money is), and forgets about the minority of people who race competitively (and actually crowds them out). Soon, there's nothing of the race left for the competitive people. Over, and over and over this has happened in the past 15 years.

Look, there's room enough in triathlon for all "categories" of racers. I've welcomed and encouraged more beginners to the sport than you have "likes" on your facebook IM finisher photo. All I ask is that you respect that there needs to be a place for all levels of competitors. You don't have to care about them. But respect the fact that others do care.

For when you come on a forum and repeatedly advocate that triathlon has no need for pros, you are being selfish, exclusionary, and tyrannical. And that pisses me off, and makes me sometimes wonder why I'm so eager to welcome beginners to sport. Because while overall triathlete numbers continue to grow, that vast majority is crowding out some crucial segments of the population.

I don't think he ever stated that triathlon has no need for pros, just instead that they play a much smaller role in people's decisions regarding events than people on here are giving them credit for. WTC has seemed to identify their business driver as the mop/bop AGer which I would define as the vast majority of those competing. I find it interesting that I keep reading on here about how the pros should be compensated more from the same people who seem to have a problem with new triathletes and get upset about some of the crowded races.

I fail to understand how pros are a crucial segment of the population when no one can articulate a value they bring to the table other than what they do is difficult and maybe generates an article about a race that only other triathletes would read anyway.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sportstats wrote:
How is that dumb, 6 athletes finished after 11:45pm in 2013, yes 6! HTFU people

So, what are you trying to say? What if one of those 6 were you? Or one of your family members or friends?

Why do we not cut if off at 15 hours? It might only be 100?

Why even have a cutoff at all?

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sure most triathletes didn't know that. Do you have a releaseable copy of the contract? That would be very interesting....

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I am saying participants can spend 20 minutes in transition instead of 35 and make the cut-off.
You make it 16:45 and they will dial in their performance to finish within that time. I would not be opposed of starting a 70+ wave at 6:45am as well.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DJRed wrote:

...and the above is exactly where you are wrong.

I do not have disdain for pros and I am not trying to drive them out in any way. What I do have disdain for is people who tell me I need to support the pros becuase they are the lifeblood of the sport. They are not. This is easily proven by realizing that if for the next 10 years only the pros raced IM, IM would fold. Conversely, what would happen if only AGers raced IM for the next 10 years? I know you get that.

Additionally, just becuase they can do it faster than I can doesn't somehow make them more entitled to do it in AMERICA.

So let's agree there's room for all of us. However, the concept that one group needs to be subsidized because they have decided to do this for a living is outrageous. That concept, I have disdain for.

I hope you stick around long enough, with an open mind, to gain a perspective larger than your own.

FWIW, I'd rather my entry fee be weighted toward the pro prize purse, rather than paying for a gazillion lifeguards, road closures on the bike for 11 hours, and aid stations every mile of the marathon. But you know what? I don't lobby for that because I accept there's a place for people finishing slower than 16 hours, even though they're a small percentage and their race eats up a disproportianate share of the costs. So be careful about whining about the outrageousness of subsidizing small groups of racers. That finger might be pointing at you and your buddies.




The Age Group Home on Facebook
Twitter jokes
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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sportstats wrote:
How is that dumb, 6 athletes finished after 11:45pm in 2013, yes 6! HTFU people

Why not just move the damn cutoff to 12:15 and let those in the 80+ AG finish sub 17 without telling them to HTFU or get more aero (as someone earlier suggested to save a few minutes)
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
sportstats wrote:
How is that dumb, 6 athletes finished after 11:45pm in 2013, yes 6! HTFU people

So, what are you trying to say? What if one of those 6 were you? Or one of your family members or friends?

Why do we not cut if off at 15 hours? It might only be 100?

Why even have a cutoff at all?

.

Kona cutoff time is now 16:45? What are folks even still doing at that time besides walking?
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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sportstats wrote:
Craig, KONA numbers have been exactly the same the last 3 years....the 2 waves have nothing to do with increasing numbers...

Here it is from the CEO of WTC himself:

Julia Polloreno: With this week’s announcements of two new Ironman events—in Barcelona and Taiwan—it begs the question: How do you grow the international Ironman event roster, while the number of Kona slots must remain the same?

Andrew Messick: The big challenge that we have in Kona is not in fact the size of the pier, which is what most people think, but rather the extreme concentration of gifted athletes in that particular race. It creates problems unique to Kona. Last year we had 1,100 athletes get out of the water in a 15-minute period, between 55 minutes and 1:10. That concentration of really strong swimmers, all of whom can ride a bike, is our operational limiter. What we’re most mindful of when we think about how we manage Kona, and we’re really focused on, is how can you have a world championship event with the best athletes in the world and yet still create a race that’s going to be fair for everybody. So we’re very thoughtful about that, and our ability to solve some of those operational problems is really what is going to govern the size of the race at Kona, and by extension, any slots we have at different races around the world. We are virtually certain to have a separate age-group men and age-group women start in Kona this year. That is largely designed to manage and reduce swim density. Swim density of course creates conditions where bike density happens because the rate at which people get out of the water and onto the bike course determines the extent to which we’re able to have a clean bike. The more direct answer is: we expect the size of Kona to increase.

Read more at http://triathlon.competitor.com/...#YyTpzd8xlLSOoWt7.99

So, yes, the split AG start has everything to do with increasing the number of participants at Kona and, by extension, the number of IM branded races around the globe.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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sportstats wrote:
How is that dumb, 6 athletes finished after 11:45pm in 2013, yes 6! HTFU people

No, those 6 finishers are more important than the integrity of the professional women's race.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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sportstats wrote:
I am saying participants can spend 20 minutes in transition instead of 35 and make the cut-off.
You make it 16:45 and they will dial in their performance to finish within that time. I would not be opposed of starting a 70+ wave at 6:45am as well.

Why judge others? Maybe they had a flat tire. Or maybe that had a cramp. It just gets SO old so many are basically saying get rid of the old folks since they are "slow".
They pay their equal entry fee. In this case, they signed up for a race with 17 hours to finish, and now saying is it only 16:45?

Us old folks already get shafted since we have to start at the end of races. So we have to wait longer. We have to race usually in hotter weather. At times race
support folks or food is gone. After the race food at times can be gone. Etc., Etc.

For these few folks that are still able to race, compared to all the others who blew their bodies apart, they are my idols.

There are so few folks older around me that can race at all, let alone fast. So everytime I see the posts that judge older racers, I just say, your time will come.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Run For Money] [ In reply to ]
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Run For Money wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
sportstats wrote:
How is that dumb, 6 athletes finished after 11:45pm in 2013, yes 6! HTFU people


So, what are you trying to say? What if one of those 6 were you? Or one of your family members or friends?

Why do we not cut if off at 15 hours? It might only be 100?

Why even have a cutoff at all?

.


Kona cutoff time is now 16:45? What are folks even still doing at that time besides walking?

Who cares and what right do any of use have to judge them? They paid their entry fee for a 17 hour cutoff race. And to now have some say it is only a few folks older folk so who cares?
I wonder if this is a blind racer if this matters? Or Dick Hoyt? Or a firefighter racing in full gear. Or, or, or.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
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andrewnova wrote:
I don't think he ever stated that triathlon has no need for pros, just instead that they play a much smaller role in people's decisions regarding events than people on here are giving them credit for. WTC has seemed to identify their business driver as the mop/bop AGer which I would define as the vast majority of those competing. I find it interesting that I keep reading on here about how the pros should be compensated more from the same people who seem to have a problem with new triathletes and get upset about some of the crowded races.

I fail to understand how pros are a crucial segment of the population when no one can articulate a value they bring to the table other than what they do is difficult and maybe generates an article about a race that only other triathletes would read anyway.

We get that you fail to understand who pros are a crucial segment of the population. But please understand that your failure to understand is different than them not actually having importance. Their value has been articulated on this forum over, and over and over. You choose to not understand the argument. I'm fine if you don't agree with it. But if you don't understand it, it's 100% your own lack of reading comprehension.

And even if you do understand it and still disagree: how would better compensated pros hurt you or your race experience? And if you say "higher entrance fees" I'll ask you why I should pay for the bike course roads to be closed for 10 hours. Because we're all in this together, and each segment brings something unique to the sport. Just because you don't see the value, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.




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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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They pay their equal entry fee. In this case, they signed up for a race with 17 hours to finish, and now saying is it only 16:45?

___________

My guess is that before this year's Kona or atleast soon after, they will announce that you have 16:45 to finish. So ~95% of the athletes who will be racing in 2015 Kona will sign up under the knowledge that the race will be a 16:45 race.

------------------
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
They pay their equal entry fee. In this case, they signed up for a race with 17 hours to finish, and now saying is it only 16:45?

___________

My guess is that before this year's Kona or atleast soon after, they will announce that you have 16:45 to finish. So ~95% of the athletes who will be racing in 2015 Kona will sign up under the knowledge that the race will be a 16:45 race.

I thought this new cutoff was for 2014. Was I wrong?

Now if it is 2015, and folks sign up knowing that, well, ....

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [sportstats] [ In reply to ]
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sportstats wrote:
I am saying participants can spend 20 minutes in transition instead of 35 and make the cut-off.
You make it 16:45 and they will dial in their performance to finish within that time. I would not be opposed of starting a 70+ wave at 6:45am as well.

I guess the same thing could be said for the female pros, who are all young and able-bodied.

Perhaps if they would HTFU, they could cut five minutes off their combined swim and bike times and not have to worry about age group men catching them before T2 if they only have a twenty-minute head start.

The most ham-handed thing about this letter from WTC is the timing. Couldn't they have waited until after Kona, or had some sort of pro meeting at Kona to hash out some of these issues?

Why decide they have to go back to a 25-minute head start for the female pros (which didn't even exist until last year) before they see whether the 20-minute gap they're getting this year is sufficient?

Frankly, this seems like a consolation prize that WTC doled out to try to get the females to forget about the fact that they're still going to be getting screwed by not having the same number of slots as the male pros. Oh, and by the way, that decision seems to have been precipitated by the male pros, who were overwhelmingly against the women getting 50 slots. Yeah, I expect that there will be some awkward moments in Kona this year. I'm sure it's not their intention, but WTC seems to be driving a wedge between the male pros, female pros, and AG athletes. Clumsy.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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For the 2015 IRONMAN World Championship, we will reinstitute a 25-minute gap between the female professional athletes and the age group men. Given operational constraints, this change will affect the other 2,000+ athletes competing for a world championship in the age groups whose race will be shortened to 16:45.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
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http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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because you are a guest of the community that you are racing in. LOL, my opinion...cut off should be 12 or 13 hours. If people want to challenge themselves with swim / bike / run they can do it on their own, unorganized anytime they want. I'd be interested in seeing exactly how the spoils of the ironman crowd are actually dispersed throughout the community. Maybe 1 out of 10 , or 1 out of 15 people actually sees the money? Maybe that's why there is the backlash in these communities that there is?


"one eye doubles my eyesight, so things don't look half bad" John Hiatt
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
For the 2015 IRONMAN World Championship, we will reinstitute a 25-minute gap between the female professional athletes and the age group men. Given operational constraints, this change will affect the other 2,000+ athletes competing for a world championship in the age groups whose race will be shortened to 16:45.

My mistake.

Still seems like WTC is screwing the older folks, but sounds like some feel everyone is getting screwed.

Sure glad I no longer have Kona as any goal I am worried about, let alone an IM ever again.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
andrewnova wrote:

I don't think he ever stated that triathlon has no need for pros, just instead that they play a much smaller role in people's decisions regarding events than people on here are giving them credit for. WTC has seemed to identify their business driver as the mop/bop AGer which I would define as the vast majority of those competing. I find it interesting that I keep reading on here about how the pros should be compensated more from the same people who seem to have a problem with new triathletes and get upset about some of the crowded races.

I fail to understand how pros are a crucial segment of the population when no one can articulate a value they bring to the table other than what they do is difficult and maybe generates an article about a race that only other triathletes would read anyway.


We get that you fail to understand who pros are a crucial segment of the population. But please understand that your failure to understand is different than them not actually having importance. Their value has been articulated on this forum over, and over and over. You choose to not understand the argument. I'm fine if you don't agree with it. But if you don't understand it, it's 100% your own lack of reading comprehension.

And even if you do understand it and still disagree: how would better compensated pros hurt you or your race experience? And if you say "higher entrance fees" I'll ask you why I should pay for the bike course roads to be closed for 10 hours. Because we're all in this together, and each segment brings something unique to the sport. Just because you don't see the value, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Thank you for proving my point about the welcoming elders of triathlon. Your responses couldn't have proven my point any better about the butthurt concerning those new to the sport. As someone who just started in triathlon I am honestly asking for examples and facts about how pros bring value to the overall race. Talking about reading comprehension, I never said better compensated pros would hurt my race experience, please read all my posts. What I have been stating is that WTC doesn't owe the professionals any additional money than what they are offering them. If the pros feel entitled to more, they need to do something about it, yet they continue to race WTC. All I keep reading is that pros are important without any supporting, documented facts.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
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This may come off as an "easy" out, but to answer your question. There is no direct monetary value that the pros bring to the sport. But I will bring you some examples.

Rev3 when they came into the sport, made a conscious effort to treat the pros like rock stars, and they certainly did. Issue became not enough high level pros jumped to Rev3, but yet Rev3 apparently had the most media coverage than even IM (that was a claim that Rev3 made, not sure how it can be verified). A company called HITS came into the sport in a similar time period, and they just haven't taken off like Rev3 has. Maybe it's because Rev3 put more money into their events, maybe a combination of things. One race company added pros to their series and marketed them up, other did no such thing.

Pros just add value to a race that make it go from an A to a A+. Maybe some at the back of the race don't even recognize the advantages, maybe you do. Getting the race recognized in media is important for races and RD's. It's how you can grow a brand just like having world class service.

Look at this past weekends IM Maryland. Apparently the race company itself isn't even willing to call the 1st placed athlete the "IM Winner", because it wasn't won by an pro (or didn't have an professional field). AGers ARE what supports all forms of racing, but turning an blind eye to the pros because you don't see direct monetary involvement isn't the answer either. The sport is supported by AG'ers, that pros and others (coaches, manufactors, clothing) all live on. You can have all groups come together and some pull more than others, but both are parts that are needed for a well oiled machine to work the most effectively.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
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http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
This may come off as an "easy" out, but to answer your question. There is no direct monetary value that the pros bring to the sport. But I will bring you some examples.

Rev3 when they came into the sport, made a conscious effort to treat the pros like rock stars, and they certainly did. Issue became not enough high level pros jumped to Rev3, but yet Rev3 apparently had the most media coverage than even IM (that was a claim that Rev3 made, not sure how it can be verified). A company called HITS came into the sport in a similar time period, and they just haven't taken off like Rev3 has. Maybe it's because Rev3 put more money into
their events, maybe a combination of things. One race company added pros to their series and marketed them up, other did no such thing.

Pros just add value to a race that make it go from an A to a A+. Maybe some at the back of the race don't even recognize the advantages, maybe you do. Getting the race recognized in media is important for races and RD's. It's how you can grow a brand just like having world class service.

Look at this past weekends IM Maryland. Apparently the race company itself isn't even willing to call the 1st placed athlete the "IM Winner", because it wasn't won by an pro (or didn't have an professional field). AGers ARE what supports all forms of racing, but turning an blind eye to the pros because you don't see direct monetary involvement isn't the answer either. The sport is supported by AG'ers, that pros and others (coaches, manufactors, clothing) all live on. You can have all groups come together and some pull more than others, but both are parts that are needed for a well oiled machine to work the most effectively.

Thank you for your response. I appreciate you breaking down some facts. My argument has not been that the pros don't deserve more but instead that they can't expect etc to just give it to them, they need to prove their worth. The fact that rev3 catered to they and paid more money in some instances and the majority of pros ignored it shows me that wtc knows what they can get away with
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
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I genuinely welcome you to the sport, and apologize if my post came across otherwise. I simply ask this:

Before you start publicly rallying to change a part of the sport that has existed for nearly 40 years, go back and do some reading about the history of pros in triathlon. The supporting, documented facts are all there on this forum. Maybe not quantified in an economic study, but if that's what you need you might be in the wrong place.

And, in the meantime, if you don't think better-compensated pros would hurt your race experience: Why is the issue so important to you? Can't you simply accept that for many of us fans, the lack of pro field would hurt our race experience? And the demise of the pro field would decrease our enjoyment of the sport as a whole?

Is it okay for us to enjoy something that you yourself don't enjoy, without you feeling the need to rail against it? Is it okay for me to drink Glenlivet and you to drink Glenfiddich without you trying to put Glenlivet out of business because you don't understand what value they bring to the scotch market?




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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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No hurt feelings, it's the interwebs! I think we both want the same result with is for the sport of triathlon to grow and thrive. I want people to make a good living and it would be great if the pros made millions of dollars. The point I have been trying to make is that the pros can't just expect to be compensated but instead have to show their worth. My other point is that I question if the people who rail against wtc continue to keep paying for their races

I'll buy you a drink at a challenge race and we can discuss more in person
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:

My mistake.

.

Never let the facts get in the way of an anti WTC rant.

/

Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
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andrewnova wrote:
I'll buy you a drink at a challenge race and we can discuss more in person

This I agree with!! :-)




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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
DJRed wrote:


...and the above is exactly where you are wrong.

I do not have disdain for pros and I am not trying to drive them out in any way. What I do have disdain for is people who tell me I need to support the pros becuase they are the lifeblood of the sport. They are not. This is easily proven by realizing that if for the next 10 years only the pros raced IM, IM would fold. Conversely, what would happen if only AGers raced IM for the next 10 years? I know you get that.

Additionally, just becuase they can do it faster than I can doesn't somehow make them more entitled to do it in AMERICA.

So let's agree there's room for all of us. However, the concept that one group needs to be subsidized because they have decided to do this for a living is outrageous. That concept, I have disdain for.


I hope you stick around long enough, with an open mind, to gain a perspective larger than your own.

FWIW, I'd rather my entry fee be weighted toward the pro prize purse, rather than paying for a gazillion lifeguards, road closures on the bike for 11 hours, and aid stations every mile of the marathon. But you know what? I don't lobby for that because I accept there's a place for people finishing slower than 16 hours, even though they're a small percentage and their race eats up a disproportianate share of the costs. So be careful about whining about the outrageousness of subsidizing small groups of racers. That finger might be pointing at you and your buddies.

Fair point about the lifeguards, road closures, and aid stations using additional resources.

I guess what I'm saying is if we broke the race in two, you can take the pros, I'll take the AGers and we'll see who has the more profitable business over time. To me, that's the easiest way to quantify who is bringing dollars to the table.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
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andrewnova wrote:
My other point is that I question if the people who rail against wtc continue to keep paying for their races

Yes. Guaranteed.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [craigj532] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting that the male pros lobbied against increasing the female pro field. That's just sad. And WTCs excuse about participation numbers smacks of the UCI mindset. Create the carrot and they will come. They will not come for no reason. In the early days of our sport, forward thinking people made a conscious decision about prize purse parity. This is one of the reasons that female participation in the sport has blossomed, as opposed to that in cycling. I have to give credit to the media as well, for giving female pro triathletes excellent media coverage. Female pros are an important part of my interest in the sport.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kny] [ In reply to ]
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>Yes. Guaranteed.

n=1, the last WTC race I did was in 2010, about the time I first railed against them.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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if they "expect" it's not volunteering. If they "would like" then it's volunteering.


Rappstar wrote:
oceanswimmer wrote:
So how exactly do they expect their pro athletes to "volunteer"?


WTC will provide both financial and logistical support for the volunteer efforts. Things like travel, getting posters printed, etc. WTC is willing to help with that and also to help find opportunities where the event organizer would also help in this regard. Athletes will not be expected to "foot the bill" for volunteer efforts; they are expected to give their time.

A lot has been made about how WTC needs to do more "athlete development." I agree. But I don't think that it should be racing-type development. It should be "how to be more professional" development. That's what this is.

I think it's a huge win for pros. This is exactly the sort of thing that is a very clear value add to sponsors. Much more clear than a race result...

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Ironma'am] [ In reply to ]
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I used to think that pros in advertisements didn't affect me. Then I noticed my reaction when I saw ads with an unknown looking all serious "racing" in an ad, and I thought "well, who are you?" Then I realized that for an ad to bear any weight, they had to have a recognizable athlete, and if it is one of my favorites (often female), I definitely give a second look at the product.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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MarkyV wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
It is worth noting that no where in #5 is there any specific threat of retaliation against pro's. There is a request to not use social media to air grievances.


It is implied. There stands a policy of retaliation for going against big brothers wishes.



(ETA: have been slowly working my thru the thread and noticed Brandon updated you)

Curious then that a pro that received this letter posted it for all to see. Be interesting to see if there are ramifications. Otherwise you are engaging in a supposition.

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Ironma'am] [ In reply to ]
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Ironma'am wrote:
I used to think that pros in advertisements didn't affect me. Then I noticed my reaction when I saw ads with an unknown looking all serious "racing" in an ad, and I thought "well, who are you?" Then I realized that for an ad to bear any weight, they had to have a recognizable athlete, and if it is one of my favorites (often female), I definitely give a second look at the product.

Agreed! But you are talking about "product", presumably a bike, a tri kit, nutrition, etc.

If you had no intention of racing IMLP but you saw a pro advertising it, would that make a difference and would you then give that race a second look? Or are you doing IMLP for a hundred other reasons?
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Ironma'am] [ In reply to ]
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Ironma'am wrote:
Interesting that the male pros lobbied against increasing the female pro field. That's just sad. And WTCs excuse about participation numbers smacks of the UCI mindset. Create the carrot and they will come. They will not come for no reason. In the early days of our sport, forward thinking people made a conscious decision about prize purse parity. This is one of the reasons that female participation in the sport has blossomed, as opposed to that in cycling. I have to give credit to the media as well, for giving female pro triathletes excellent media coverage. Female pros are an important part of my interest in the sport.

From what I've read on Twitter, it seems that the issue was presented to the male pros as "in order to give the women an equal number of slots, we'll have to reduce the number of male pro slots." If it was presented that way, I can see why the men were against it. Of course, there's no reason that WTC couldn't find 15 more slots for female pros without reducing the men's slots at all. I mean, really, they just somehow came up with 100 slots for active duty military.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:
For the 2015 IRONMAN World Championship, we will reinstitute a 25-minute gap between the female professional athletes and the age group men. Given operational constraints, this change will affect the other 2,000+ athletes competing for a world championship in the age groups whose race will be shortened to 16:45.

My mistake.

Still seems like WTC is screwing the older folks, but sounds like some feel everyone is getting screwed.

Sure glad I no longer have Kona as any goal I am worried about, let alone an IM ever again.

How are they screwing the old folks? They can make the cutoff any time they wish. Old folks don't have any right to an event specifically catered to them. Everyone has the choice to enter or not enter, if you can't make the cutoff, tough shit.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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I also thought the policy was already on the books with the pros, just that it's never been an issue, so likely been soft stance. Now it just seems they are saying they'll adhere to the policy. I thought I remember hearing they did have a policy already.

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@brooksdoughtie
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Ironma'am] [ In reply to ]
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Ironma'am wrote:
Interesting that the male pros lobbied against increasing the female pro field. That's just sad. And WTCs excuse about participation numbers smacks of the UCI mindset. Create the carrot and they will come. They will not come for no reason. In the early days of our sport, forward thinking people made a conscious decision about prize purse parity. This is one of the reasons that female participation in the sport has blossomed, as opposed to that in cycling. I have to give credit to the media as well, for giving female pro triathletes excellent media coverage. Female pros are an important part of my interest in the sport.

What carrot do they need to provide? Prize purses are already equal. Wasn't it just IM Wales where only 2 female pros bothered to show up? There just aren't as many female pros. Males make up the vast majority of IM athletes both AG and pro. AG field isn't even so why should the pro field? And what female pro has been disenfranchised that could have an impact on the race in Kona? Here she is:
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devrock] [ In reply to ]
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devrock wrote:
So, I guess this is one of many reasons why Macca no longer associates himself with Ironman, huh?

I'm not sure how your comment applies to mine (that European IMs have 16-hr cutoffs). Can you please explain?
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [cjbruin] [ In reply to ]
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cjbruin wrote:
devrock wrote:
So, I guess this is one of many reasons why Macca no longer associates himself with Ironman, huh?


I'm not sure how your comment applies to mine (that European IMs have 16-hr cutoffs). Can you please explain?

With Europe using the metric system, isn't 16 hours there the equivalent of 17 hours here?
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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I am talking about product. But for pros to develop a recognizable name, they need to race.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
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Carrots come not only as prize purses, but as sponsorship deals. To get those, they must race, especially in Kona. Fewer slots equals fewer opportunities.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Ironma'am] [ In reply to ]
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16:45 is still soft. its 15 hours for challenge roth (which should be challenge's championship) and no one is crying about it.


http://www.coupleofathletes.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Ellsworth53T wrote:
The athletes are under contract in those leagues and the leagues provide a living wage for the athlete. The triathletes, as far as im aware, are not under any sort of contract with WTC, and WTC certainly doesn't provide a guaranteed wage.


Bingo.

This. I think the more fair comparison (instead of full time employee/employer that is often being used) is that of a contract sales rep. In those cases these reps sell (or in this example "race") for different brands, and they tend to gravitate to where the biggest commission/incentives etc are. If they do not care for whatever companies brand/management etc they are free to focus elsewhere.

My read on this move by WTC is they are making somewhat of a gamble. I think they smell a split in the ranks of pro triathletes and are making a move to move them all in through potential compensation under their pushes to bring in more sponsors etc. I mean it's got to be somewhat scary being a pro with all of the uncertaintly around income as is (have to win/place etc) so moving to other race brands and hoping that works out is even more uncertainty..which is why I have somewhat of a low opinion of how the WTC handles themselves. IMO they come off much more like an overconfident bully than a solid desirable business to be affiliated with.

Now granted the closest I've ever been to Kona is through my boy Magnum (and if that counts I've been there way more than you knuckleheads) but the business side of this is very interesting to me..
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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I agree - there are people that are doing the race for a bucket list reason - to lose weight, to reclaim their lives, to raise money for a cause,. none of these were my motivation. Mine was to go as fast as i could given my talent and desire and heart. I worshiped the guys that kick my ass and i memorized their names and looked to see them in results and imagined that i could be as fast as them. If WTC doesnt get prize money into the realm of reasonableness - the fast talented guys will do other things or certainly no one will do it more than once. They will cross it off their lists and move on - which is what WTC wants. Look at the winners list from years past - people dedicated themselves for close to decades to chase the IM prize - now only a fool would bother - the prizes are peanuts and most AGers suggest they dont care about the overall winners. Despite being a competitive AGer- i still say how i did with an asterisk relative to the fastest people. i was young once and had my chance - now its time to give the accolades to the young guns of tomorrow to take down past champions. That is where the drama is. WTC is shortsighted and simply minimizing balance sheet expenses. For a company that still charges athletes entry for the opportunity to win a paltry prize - they should welcome any social media attention they get - even if negative - cause most of the world pays little to no attention to IM racing, which will continue to be the case until the stakes are higher. This company is simply minimizing expense in the short term and cares nothing about long term growth. My guess is a sale of WTC is in the works and the CEO is out to smooth waters so that potential buyers dont start reading the social media and get scared away. I have drunk the kool aid for years - but man these days I am hoping for an underdog to come in and change up the direction of our sport. Go Challenge !! Bring out your best - good competitions always make things interesting!

Michael Hay - helped on the journey by the great folks at Rudy Project, Blue Seventy, Xterra, Kestrel and GURU (for the custom fit), Brooks, and Bialkowlski's TRYSPORT
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for replying, rapp.
I've been busy working and travelling since this morning. Lots to catch up on in this thread.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [tri4balance] [ In reply to ]
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OK, so I have been in transit for the last 24 hours or so. Did the following happen yet?

  • WTC increased Kona field size to 5000 people ?
  • Did the town of Kailua get pissed off with the threat of more visitors to the island and kick WTC out yet because the world is always better with less revenue. We don't want triathlon to bring in more revenue than Kona coffee?
  • Did Challenge sign a deal with the locals yet?
  • Did all the Challenge series events worldwide sell out instantly because they now have the key to the road to Kona?
  • Did Challenge reduce the Kona cut off to 15 hours, or are they starting the 60+ folks with floodlights at 6 am and giving them all an 18 hour cutoff and big head start while forcing the young guys to suck it up and go faster like they do in Roth?
  • Did all the pros tweet to Messick that WTC sucks and they are all racing for the Challenge World Championships in Kona?
  • Did the Kailua provide the peer to Challenge for free or did they ask Felix for 20% of Roth proceeds to use the peer?
  • Did the princes over in Bahrain call Andrew and say, "OK, we'll host the WTC Ironman World's in Bahrain on the first weekend of October and post $10M prize purse".
  • While all this was going on, did Mauna Kea just erupt out of frustration covering the QueenK in Lava, forcing Challenge to take the race course up Palani to Hawaii belt road to saddle road to the new turnaround 10K up the side of Mauna Loa?



Anything else happen around here. I feel like Murphy's Law coming off winter hiatus.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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the money is going the wrong way for that to be true.

the WTC is under contract to the athlete. for the $800, the WTC is responsible to provide races to race in, prize money, and fair racing through drug testing.

Rappstar wrote:
Ellsworth53T wrote:
The athletes are under contract in those leagues and the leagues provide a living wage for the athlete. The triathletes, as far as im aware, are not under any sort of contract with WTC, and WTC certainly doesn't provide a guaranteed wage.


Any pro athlete who holds a WTC pro membership license is under contract. In exchange for a fixed yearly fee, each athlete is free to race as many WTC events as they wish, earn prize money, etc. In exchange, they agree to abide by a code of conduct, be available for drug testing, and some other pretty basic things you'd expect.

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
DJRed wrote:

I just raced IMMD. There were no pros. The race was just fine. My day was great. I have no less than 100 Facebook likes on pictures. I have told my training and raceday stories to no less than 100 people. I spent almost $300 on IM gear to remember the day and I've yet to order any of my course pictures. I'll continue to talk to anyone who will listen about what a great day and accomplishment this was for me and my family. I suspect there are 1500 or so other finishers from IMMD who are in the same boat with the same story.

Explain to me again the selfishness and tyranny of all this? Explain to me again about how my sharing of this amazing experience is not good for the sport?

By the way, I've been asked a lot of questions about the race by friends and family. Everything from "Was I scared" to "Did I pee on the bike" to "Was the water cold". You know what nobody has asked me either after the race or during my months of training: "Which pros were at the race?" Hell, I don't even think people realize there's a winner in IM races.


It sounds like you had a great day, and you've engaged a lot of friends and family. You've probably even inspired some to start triathlon. That's all good for the sport.

The selfish part is that you don't care about anyone other than beginners and/or MOP racers. The tyrannical part is your open disdain for those who don't fit in your "category" of participants. You not only don't care about pros & FOP amateurs, you seem to wish that they didn't even exist.

And the reason it's tyrannical is that when the mass majority doesn't care about one segment of a population, it has the power to drive that segment out. I've seen it happen in countless running races when a competitive no-frills race becomes popular with beginners. First it's all good, but then the race becomes more and more focused on the beginners (because that's where the money is), and forgets about the minority of people who race competitively (and actually crowds them out). Soon, there's nothing of the race left for the competitive people. Over, and over and over this has happened in the past 15 years.

Look, there's room enough in triathlon for all "categories" of racers. I've welcomed and encouraged more beginners to the sport than you have "likes" on your facebook IM finisher photo. All I ask is that you respect that there needs to be a place for all levels of competitors. You don't have to care about them. But respect the fact that others do care.

For when you come on a forum and repeatedly advocate that triathlon has no need for pros, you are being selfish, exclusionary, and tyrannical. And that pisses me off, and makes me sometimes wonder why I'm so eager to welcome beginners to sport. Because while overall triathlete numbers continue to grow, that vast majority is crowding out some crucial segments of the population.

I don't disagree with your central pint (room enough for all "categories"), but the attitude of which you protest are equally evident from the opposite POV.

Beginners and BOP competitors are routinely chastised and dismissed as "bucket listers", "participants" and "completists" by many here.

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
the money is going the wrong way for that to be true.

the WTC is under contract to the athlete. for the $800, the WTC is responsible to provide races to race in, prize money, and fair racing through drug testing.

Rappstar wrote:
Ellsworth53T wrote:
The athletes are under contract in those leagues and the leagues provide a living wage for the athlete. The triathletes, as far as im aware, are not under any sort of contract with WTC, and WTC certainly doesn't provide a guaranteed wage.


Any pro athlete who holds a WTC pro membership license is under contract. In exchange for a fixed yearly fee, each athlete is free to race as many WTC events as they wish, earn prize money, etc. In exchange, they agree to abide by a code of conduct, be available for drug testing, and some other pretty basic things you'd expect.

Lots of us pay professional dues for various industry associations. We pay some $$$ to practice our professions in our country or internationally. I know it seems backwards, but by paying in, we help subsidize a framework that allows us to practice our professions under certain rules and obligations. I don't see this being that different. Rapp is correct, that the some of the stuff is pretty basic and is not that indifferent from every other industry in terms of how professionals have to behave.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I started in the last wave at almost every race this year with exception of tremblant and I am in 18-24 so I could say that us young guys get shafted ....

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
OK, so I have been in transit for the last 24 hours or so. Did the following happen yet?

  • WTC increased Kona field size to 5000 people ?
  • Did the town of Kailua get pissed off with the threat of more visitors to the island and kick WTC out yet because the world is always better with less revenue. We don't want triathlon to bring in more revenue than Kona coffee?
  • Did Challenge sign a deal with the locals yet?
  • Did all the Challenge series events worldwide sell out instantly because they now have the key to the road to Kona?
  • Did Challenge reduce the Kona cut off to 15 hours, or are they starting the 60+ folks with floodlights at 6 am and giving them all an 18 hour cutoff and big head start while forcing the young guys to suck it up and go faster like they do in Roth?
  • Did all the pros tweet to Messick that WTC sucks and they are all racing for the Challenge World Championships in Kona?
  • Did the Kailua provide the peer to Challenge for free or did they ask Felix for 20% of Roth proceeds to use the peer?
  • Did the princes over in Bahrain call Andrew and say, "OK, we'll host the WTC Ironman World's in Bahrain on the first weekend of October and post $10M prize purse".
  • While all this was going on, did Mauna Kea just erupt out of frustration covering the QueenK in Lava, forcing Challenge to take the race course up Palani to Hawaii belt road to saddle road to the new turnaround 10K up the side of Mauna Loa?



Anything else happen around here. I feel like Murphy's Law coming off winter hiatus.

Nah, we were just discussing the word "sycophant".
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [ In reply to ]
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As for the shortened cutoff time for 2015 in Kona. Our opinions are going to be based upon what we perceive as sacrosanct. Is it the midnight cutoff or the 17 hours? Honestly, the race used to be be finished whenever though.

Yes, there are WTC races either less than 17 hours. And the one shot deal, IMNYC, had a short cutoff as well as I recall. But how often was the shorter time acknowledged as being at the expense of one group of athletes so that pros could have greater distance on the age group men instead of local neighborhoods etc? There are solutions as long as the race is here: go back to a 6:30 pro start. Men and women. Start everyone else later. Or just go retro and return to a mass swim start for everyone, pros and age groupers alike. Don't like getting passed by elite age group men or women? Swim faster. Or just move the finish time to 12:15 am. Let the media have their 17 hour end game shots.

As for a sacrosanct midnight time. It's not midnight thus year for age group men. They're pumpkinized at 23:50 HST. Ali'i drive doesn't swallow people starting at 12:01 am either. I'm fairly certain you can still run, walk, skip, hop and dance but not crawl on it at 12:15. So why have the midnight cutoff?

Btw, Kailua town doesn't get a penny of money from the race, the participants or their family members. There is no town government here, there are no city governments either. And the race utilizes state property, three state highways, and a couple of county roads. Any revenue goes to the state and the local businesses that people choose to patronize. There is mandatory overtime for the county police paid for by WTC but little else has a direct interaction at the county level.

Mauna Kea is extinct Dev. Mauna Loa would be covering the Queen K :p It's active too. Seriously.

On a serious note, the June 27 lava breakout is threatening the town of Pahoa. This is not an insignificant village, it's a fair sized town with even more population in the vicinity of it. On a triathlon level, Ultraman Hawaii has the day 2 bike course through much of that area. 2014's race could be "different'.


---------------------------------------------------------
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"
Last edited by: KonaCoffee: Sep 26, 14 22:31
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Bryan0721] [ In reply to ]
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Bryan0721 wrote:
Best line- "I want to mention the absence of live online coverage for the Subaru IRONMAN 70.3 World Championship -- our lack of a hosted live show was a mistake, one for which I accept responsibility."

He should have also said "I want to apologize to Pete Jacobs for calling him unprofessional since he did follow the rules that I put in place. Yes, doing this in a public forum was not appropriate.".

Pissing matches in public forums is bad for both sides. Yet both sides seem willing to use them.

I believe WTC is doing things for the better. No doubt about it. But the way the message is delivered sometimes has a lot of room for improvement.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Lots of us pay professional dues for various industry associations. We pay some $$$ to practice our professions in our country or internationally. I know it seems backwards, but by paying in, we help subsidize a framework that allows us to practice our professions under certain rules and obligations. I don't see this being that different. Rapp is correct, that the some of the stuff is pretty basic and is not that indifferent from every other industry in terms of how professionals have to behave.

Pro's pay a licensing fee to their NGB to race as a pro. The NGB is tasked by the ITU to set the standards for the industry. WTC then makes them pay another pro licensing fee to race as a WTC pro. WTC is acting more like a NGB than a race production business with some of their terms/practices/requirements.

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Quote:
Lots of us pay professional dues for various industry associations. We pay some $$$ to practice our professions in our country or internationally. I know it seems backwards, but by paying in, we help subsidize a framework that allows us to practice our professions under certain rules and obligations. I don't see this being that different. Rapp is correct, that the some of the stuff is pretty basic and is not that indifferent from every other industry in terms of how professionals have to behave.


Pro's pay a licensing fee to their NGB to race as a pro. The NGB is tasked by the ITU to set the standards for the industry. WTC then makes them pay another pro licensing fee to race as a WTC pro. WTC is acting more like a NGB than a race production business with some of their terms/practices/requirements.


I agree with you that they are acting like a quasi international governing body which they are for their own races. Definitely an overlap between what WTC and the ITU/NGBs do. In any case, it is neither here nor there. As people tell us age groupers all the time, if you don't like how WTC runs their races, there are other choices and they are a private company can do what they want. I don't really buy into the "they are a private company and can do what they want" BECAUSE they have chosen to act like an NGB in many cases. And because they do so, there should be two way accountability with pros and age groupers.

I view them more similar to the NHL who run their own game under their own rules, setting their own championships and run in parallel to the International Ice Hockey Federation which runs its own championship and is the link for Ice Hockey into the Olympics. Every other aspect of hockey outside of the NHL is run by the IIHF. The two co exist, but the NHL pretty well does whatever the heck it wants, with some minor "collaboration" so that both can make money off each other's existence. Technically, some out of competition WADA guy should be able to walk over to the home of any NHLer, and test them, but from what I recall, none of the NHL guys are in a testing pool until they are named to a national team for the Olympics or IIHF championship and shockingly no one ever tests positive anyway. At least no one from the NHL does...usually they will token nail some tier 3 minor league guy.

All this to say, yes the pros pay to play at the WTC house, but once inside the house, like any league there are some formal and informal house rules. We all have that in our companies, and we have that in our interactions with our customers and partners. We don't need to be rocket scientists to figure this out.

Also one more thing in terms of how Ironman CEO is communicating, related to Marcel's post about doing all this in public not being productive (which I agree with). Unlike cycling, football or hockey pros that are under contract to teams, WTC IM pros are really more like freelance guys who happen to pay a small fee to play in the WTC house. If you get paid $250K to ride for Saxo Tinkhoff, or $5M to play for the New York Giants, you're going to keep you mouth shut and not complain too much (publicly) about the organization. Andrew, coming from the bike racing world is used to this type of "professional response" from players. Triathlon pro situation is different. They pay $800 (or whatever the number is) to enter the WTC casino with a chance to make some up side coin, but they could just as easily leave the casino with zero. Pros in other sports are certain to make their base pay and will act publicly in unison with the organization from which they get guaranteed pay. The WTC casino house does not guarantee pay, just the chance of it, so asking for pro behavior in public will be a harder challenge than in other sports, especially if many pros don't see the casino odds being that great".

But coming back to what Slowman said many years ago....race wins are not about how much prize money, its about WTC giving athletes a platform from which they can leverage further revenue from business opportunities and sponsorships. I actually wish that Andrew comes back to this point rather than defending the prize purse total payout, which by all accounts from the "rolled up view" is half decent ($4M is like running a cycling team of 20 members with $100K salary for each and $2M equipment/travel etc). From what I recall, rolled up prize money for the Tour de France is in the range of 2M Euros.

I think Andrew needs to emphasize that he is giving pros the opportunity to win races and market themselves. Why should WTC pay the pros more, when arguably, companies like Cervelo, Specialized, Saucony etc etc etc, don't have to lift a finger to create the race series/production, while they benefit so much from the work that WTC does. Look at transition in any race....how much money is there in hardware versus how much money WTC gets in entry fees ($5000 per bike vs $800 entry fee) ? Bike companies are making a lot more revenue than WTC, so are running shoe companies, so Andrew needs to turn it around on all these "partners" getting a free ride on WTC. WTC gives the pros the platform and $4M of payout. The rest, the industry can step up and deliver on. "Pros and companies, you guys go figure it out, but without our races, you have no racing going on to leverage, so we're all in it together. We give pros the platform and we give all the suppliers a market (age groupers) to sell into".

Rather than telling pros how to behave, I'd personally focus on the upside that they are offering pros. No one likes to be told how to behave, but everyone likes to hear about an opportunity. He should focus on the opportunity. It is no different than cyclists in the Tour de France...no one is talking about the prize money for a stage win, about the money for the Green or Polka dot Jersey or the payout on the Champs for the Yellow. All of this gives the riders and team a platform to negotiate with future sponsors or team management (whose revenues come from sponsors). Very few are critical of the TdF for their $2M Euro payout, which is paltry compared to the revenue that ASO rakes in.

WTC/Ironman is like the Tour de France of cycling in that respect. Heck even age groupers market themselves as Ironman podium winners all the time. This is the angle that WTC needs to push. Jordan Rapp got it a long time ago...he said something along the lines of, "I get more about being IM Canada or IM Arizona champion than 24th at Kona, so until I can contend in Kona I am not going". See, he got it that the platform was worth the most. Oh, and he also figured out how to comport himself in the market but does so with credibility. He's is transparent and can be highly critical, but does it with meat and substance behind his thoughts. Not 1 line tweets with zero context that can be taken out of hand. Same thing with Brandon Marsh. So these guys automatically get credibility, far beyond their stature that comes exclusively with speed.
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Sep 27, 14 7:07
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I'm just curious as to the differences between the WTC pro license and the NBG license. For example, can someone hold a WTC pro license and not a NGB? Further, I'm assuming that the WTC license gets you into any WTC race in the world, not just in one country, for no additional race fee (travel and lodging not part of the deal). Is that the case with a NGB pro card?

Honest, not challenging, questions.






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http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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USAT pro license is a must and about $35 for the year. WTC pro license is totally optional and about $800ish per year.

WTC license only necessary if you want to do their particular events of course. Someone could certainly just do Lifetime/Challenge/Rev without a WTC license. WTC is the only race org that really charges pros to race, and the only one that requires pros to hold a "license" for their races.

Not complaining just stating
Last edited by: USPro Tri: Sep 27, 14 8:10
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:

He should have also said "I want to apologize to Pete Jacobs for calling him unprofessional since he did follow the rules that I put in place. Yes, doing this in a public forum was not appropriate.".

Pissing matches in public forums is bad for both sides. Yet both sides seem willing to use them.

I believe WTC is doing things for the better. No doubt about it. But the way the message is delivered sometimes has a lot of room for improvement.

qft


---------------------------------------------------------
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
But coming back to what Slowman said many years ago....race wins are not about how much prize money, its about WTC giving athletes a platform from which they can leverage further revenue from business opportunities and sponsorships. I actually wish that Andrew comes back to this point rather than defending the prize purse total payout, which by all accounts from the "rolled up view" is half decent ($4M is like running a cycling team of 20 members with $100K salary for each and $2M equipment/travel etc).



I'll just change your example a little bit. Catch the difference?


But coming back to what Slowman said many years ago....race wins are not about how much prize money, its about WTC giving athletes a platform from which they can leverage further revenue from business opportunities and sponsorships. I actually wish that Andrew comes back to this point rather than defending the prize purse total payout, which by all accounts from the "rolled up view" is half decent ($4M is like running a triathlon team of 1000 members with $2K salary for each and $2M equipment/travel etc. which is subsidized with the $1 Million collected from those 1000 members).

------------------------
Cornwall (Ontario) Triathlon
Last edited by: RobAllen: Sep 27, 14 9:58
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
I'm just curious as to the differences between the WTC pro license and the NBG license. For example, can someone hold a WTC pro license and not a NGB? Further, I'm assuming that the WTC license gets you into any WTC race in the world, not just in one country, for no additional race fee (travel and lodging not part of the deal). Is that the case with a NGB pro card?

Honest, not challenging, questions.

Athletes are supposed to have a NGB pro/elite license in order to be a WTC pro member. Yes, the WTC pro membership fee allows you to race any WTC race that you chose.

I don't know what a Great Britain elite license costs, as an example. For USAT it's $49/annually. WTC was $800 in 2014. That was an increase of $50 over 2013 and previous. An increase that was intended to go towards increase drug testing since several NGBs pulled long course athletes out of their drug testing pool.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
I'm just curious as to the differences between the WTC pro license and the NBG license. For example, can someone hold a WTC pro license and not a NGB? Further, I'm assuming that the WTC license gets you into any WTC race in the world, not just in one country, for no additional race fee (travel and lodging not part of the deal). Is that the case with a NGB pro card?

Honest, not challenging, questions.


Athletes are supposed to have a NGB pro/elite license in order to be a WTC pro member. Yes, the WTC pro membership fee allows you to race any WTC race that you chose.

I don't know what a Great Britain elite license costs, as an example. For USAT it's $49/annually. WTC was $800 in 2014. That was an increase of $50 over 2013 and previous. An increase that was intended to go towards increase drug testing since several NGBs pulled long course athletes out of their drug testing pool.

In other endurance sports the event organizer has to provide hotel, food and transportation at the race location (not to the location). I know that in cross country skiing the organizer has to provide room with three meals at a rate of USD 100 per day, also the top 30 get their room for free. Same with Swix Ski Classics.

What do you get of support from WTC?
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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What do you get of support from WTC?

___________

Let's be fair. You don't get anything you just described even at ITU events unless your one of the NGB athletes who's getting travel paid for (they likely have to pay and get reimbursed). Of course the top 30 athletes very likely all are being funded for X event by their federation, so that's a bit different than LC athletes.

And in LC, WTC/Rev3 non of them provide the standard that you prescribe. Rev3 did a really good job of finding homestays for almost all their pros from what I remember, and it seems like WTC pros have to do it more on their own.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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So where is the platform the WTC is talking about?
No support, no streaming and hardly any media coverage. Where is the platform?

The CEO was talking about building the sport. I just do not see that not stream a so called world championship is building the sport.

But then again, my experience is from other sports and not LD triathlon so I maybe miss something.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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The platform is that every IM race has been covered by ST, probably Lava, triathlon competitor, and *usually* some type of online/sketchy feed. May not be much media, but every WTC event has gotten covered by ST I'm guessing since it's inception.

Yes it's hardly any media but there is hardly any sponsors other than in sport sponsors, so what do you expect.

They stream every Kona, and even the past 70.3's to some degree, but wasn't sure why MT 70.3 wasn't shown (especially with the class of athletes they had show up).

WTC can and should do better, but there have been platforms for athletes to show their brand, WTC can't be expected to do everything. (And I'm anti WTC, I just don't think it's on WTC to put in $10mil in prize purse when no other advertising/sponsors are jumping to help).

Until media advertising improves, the pro side of the sport is up shit creek.

------------------
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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Halvard wrote:
In other endurance sports the event organizer has to provide hotel, food and transportation at the race location (not to the location). I know that in cross country skiing the organizer has to provide room with three meals at a rate of USD 100 per day, also the top 30 get their room for free. Same with Swix Ski Classics.

What do you get of support from WTC?

I'm glad Brooks chimed in as I had a post about my short ITU career and support. Basically none from USAT outside of a uniform for a World Cup. And maybe some hotel help from ITU at 2 of the World Cups I races. That was 8 years ago, my memory is fuzzy. When Amy and I raced Long Course worlds in 2007, a small travel stipend was offered by USAT. For non-draft ITU World championship events now the only USAT funding is performance (podium) based...Long course, winter tri, cross tri, etc.

With WTC and support, Amy and I ask. It is that simple. Whether you call it support or compensation we ask for it when we register and if we are asked to participate in a non-mandatory WTC race weekend event. Hotel/travel support, there isn't really any official policy to my knowledge. At one time there was some support for the top-10 ranked athletes racing in Kona. I don't know if it was a set amount per athlete or if it was graduated based on ranking. If there is a policy it is 'case by case' or rather 'race by race' basis. The short answer to your question is that there is no support for the largest majority of the pro field.

Rev3 was kind of the same. You have to ask.

Per Jordan's post way up in this thread relating to the 'volunteer' requirement of pros. I haven't yet developed my opinion on the additional requirements placed on 'World Championship' athletes. On one hand, I believe that the opportunity for combined marketing by the professionals and WTC is a good step in the right direction...something that maybe should have been done long ago. On the other hand, I think that if these are truly the 'World Championship' athletes then the athletes 'time' should be compensated.


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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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Per Jordan's post way up in this thread relating to the 'volunteer' requirement of pros. I haven't yet developed my opinion on the additional requirements placed on 'World Championship' athletes. On one hand, I believe that the opportunity for combined marketing by the professionals and WTC is a good step in the right direction...something that maybe should have been done long ago. On the other hand, I think that if these are truly the 'World Championship' athletes then the athletes 'time' should be compensated.

___________

Per Jordan's post "WTC will provide both financial and logistical support for the volunteer efforts. Things like travel, getting posters printed, etc. WTC is willing to help with that and also to help find opportunities where the event organizer would also help in this regard. Athletes will not be expected to "foot the bill" for volunteer efforts; they are expected to give their time. "


I hope it truly will be true that they provide money and networking for the pros who "volunteer" and not just tell them the chance to network is fair trade.

------------------
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [RobAllen] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RobAllen wrote:
Quote:
But coming back to what Slowman said many years ago....race wins are not about how much prize money, its about WTC giving athletes a platform from which they can leverage further revenue from business opportunities and sponsorships. I actually wish that Andrew comes back to this point rather than defending the prize purse total payout, which by all accounts from the "rolled up view" is half decent ($4M is like running a cycling team of 20 members with $100K salary for each and $2M equipment/travel etc).



I'll just change your example a little bit. Catch the difference?


But coming back to what Slowman said many years ago....race wins are not about how much prize money, its about WTC giving athletes a platform from which they can leverage further revenue from business opportunities and sponsorships. I actually wish that Andrew comes back to this point rather than defending the prize purse total payout, which by all accounts from the "rolled up view" is half decent ($4M is like running a triathlon team of 1000 members with $2K salary for each and $2M equipment/travel etc. which is subsidized with the $1 Million collected from those 1000 members).

Not really Rob. There is $4M. In an ideal world, probably $2-3M goes to the top 10 athletes on each side. The other $1-2M gets spread over the next 40 because they don't have that much marketing appeal for your show but you need them around so the top guys have some people to actually beat. If not, there is no competition. Regardless, $4M rolled up is not insignificant, but as Brooks said, it's not up to WTC to increase this to $10M or for that matter $20M. The platform is there for both pros and sponsors to leverage. Sponsors are likely getting more slave labour out of pros than WTC is. Without pros wining events on their gear, the differentiation for the equipment is fairly limited. All the equipment is good and companies need associations with athletes to help differentiate their gear.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
I hope it truly will be true that they provide money and networking for the pros who "volunteer" and not just tell them the chance to network is fair trade.

If by money you mean something more than a travel/poster reimbursement, then I agree with you 100%.


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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
the money is going the wrong way for that to be true.

the WTC is under contract to the athlete. for the $800, the WTC is responsible to provide races to race in, prize money, and fair racing through drug testing.

Rappstar wrote:
Ellsworth53T wrote:
The athletes are under contract in those leagues and the leagues provide a living wage for the athlete. The triathletes, as far as im aware, are not under any sort of contract with WTC, and WTC certainly doesn't provide a guaranteed wage.


Any pro athlete who holds a WTC pro membership license is under contract. In exchange for a fixed yearly fee, each athlete is free to race as many WTC events as they wish, earn prize money, etc. In exchange, they agree to abide by a code of conduct, be available for drug testing, and some other pretty basic things you'd expect.

Not at all. You're just showing your ignorance of contract law here. There are a great many contracts where the payer agrees to a contract outlined by the payee. Club membership - like belonging to a golf club or tennis club or social club - is a prime example. You pay a fee, and you enter into a contract abiding by the club rules. HOAs are another example. There are others that don't involve membership that are also plentiful - e.g. a ski lift ticket is a contract you enter into with the resort operator. By purchasing it, you agree to certain things.

Yes, WTC is also bound by certain aspects of the contract as well - payment of prize money according to an established timeline, etc. But WTC is the membership organization here. It is more accurate to say that the athletes are under contract with WTC, rather than vice versa. Though, of course, given that it's a contract, it goes both ways.


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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Quote:
Lots of us pay professional dues for various industry associations. We pay some $$$ to practice our professions in our country or internationally. I know it seems backwards, but by paying in, we help subsidize a framework that allows us to practice our professions under certain rules and obligations. I don't see this being that different. Rapp is correct, that the some of the stuff is pretty basic and is not that indifferent from every other industry in terms of how professionals have to behave.


Pro's pay a licensing fee to their NGB to race as a pro. The NGB is tasked by the ITU to set the standards for the industry. WTC then makes them pay another pro licensing fee to race as a WTC pro. WTC is acting more like a NGB than a race production business with some of their terms/practices/requirements.

Desert dude is right. Professional dues are paid to governing bodies that certify competence in the field. Engineers, doctors, lawyers, architects, etc. American athletes pay usat to certify that they are fast enough to obtain an elite license, and that's a minor fee.

WTC's pro membership deal is nothing at all like a licensing fee. It's simply an annual race entry fee for a select group of people, which puts it maybe one step below the Ironman Access program. They've somehow convinced 1000 people to pay $800/year to enter an unlimited number of races, when only 100 of them will get their $800 back in prize money. Pretty darned clever marketing, and I must say I'm a little envious.




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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, wtc is nothing at all like the nhl.

The nhl pays athletes an annual salary to play games. The athletes get paid whether they score goals or not.

The wtc charges athletes an annual fee to race ironmans. The athletes get paid only if they finish fast enough. The vast majority don't.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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They've somehow convinced 1000 people to pay $800/year to enter an unlimited number of races, when only 100 of them will get their $800 back in prize money. Pretty darned clever marketing, and I must say I'm a little envious
____________________

Or WTC can implement the old system where pros paid to enter races currently at $700/per race. Given they need 3-5 races to qualify for Kona assuming they are any good, that is now $2100-$3500/yr in entry fees to race Kona. With that at hand, $800 is a great deal.

If I could get a pro card I would happily pay the $800 and race two ironmans per year for $800 vs. $1400 without the card.

Numbers. You cut them to tell the yarn you want.




@rhyspencer
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I'm clear on contract law. you're showing your ignorance on how WTC's heavy handedness is perceived (hint: heavy). It is currently NOT going both ways, hence my somewhat sarcastic/satirical comment.




Rappstar wrote:
ericM40-44 wrote:
the money is going the wrong way for that to be true.

the WTC is under contract to the athlete. for the $800, the WTC is responsible to provide races to race in, prize money, and fair racing through drug testing.

Rappstar wrote:
Ellsworth53T wrote:
The athletes are under contract in those leagues and the leagues provide a living wage for the athlete. The triathletes, as far as im aware, are not under any sort of contract with WTC, and WTC certainly doesn't provide a guaranteed wage.


Any pro athlete who holds a WTC pro membership license is under contract. In exchange for a fixed yearly fee, each athlete is free to race as many WTC events as they wish, earn prize money, etc. In exchange, they agree to abide by a code of conduct, be available for drug testing, and some other pretty basic things you'd expect.


Not at all. You're just showing your ignorance of contract law here. There are a great many contracts where the payer agrees to a contract outlined by the payee. Club membership - like belonging to a golf club or tennis club or social club - is a prime example. You pay a fee, and you enter into a contract abiding by the club rules. HOAs are another example. There are others that don't involve membership that are also plentiful - e.g. a ski lift ticket is a contract you enter into with the resort operator. By purchasing it, you agree to certain things.

Yes, WTC is also bound by certain aspects of the contract as well - payment of prize money according to an established timeline, etc. But WTC is the membership organization here. It is more accurate to say that the athletes are under contract with WTC, rather than vice versa. Though, of course, given that it's a contract, it goes both ways.

Eric Reid
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Jordan since you're closer to this than anyone else, let me ask a few questions that need to be answered imo. Since this sounds like it's going to make it into a contract of some sort with athletes, contracts are binding in both directions. With that in mind:

If WTC doesn't increase visibility like that stated in section 4 and can't/doesn't come through with some of the things stated in 3 and 5 shouldn't their be a clawback provision in the contract for the pro's?

After all they are now paying for certain enhancements.

What if WTC f*cks up again with their online video coverage like at 70.3 worlds. Shouldn't there be another clawback clause for the pro's that raced there?

What if Lava print sales decrease, again that's less exposure shouldn't there should be a clawback option for that?

My next questions revolves around measurement.

How is WTC going to measure this? With lava sales it's easy, subscriptions either go up or down, but some of the other things are not as concrete.

How are they going to measure growing the sport?

Is it growth with WTC participants, which could easily be achieved by adding races or is it growth within each countries NGB membership?

What if a NGB's memnbership decreases? That's growth failure. Clawback?

These are the tough questions that need to be asked but more importantly need to be answered. I think if pro's really think about this, your inbox could get flooded.

You guys may want to come out with a FAQ or have a global conf call addressing some things to avoid the email flood.

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Last edited by: desert dude: Sep 27, 14 13:06
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ericM40-44 wrote:
I'm clear on contract law. you're showing your ignorance on how WTC's heavy handedness is perceived (hint: heavy). It is currently NOT going both ways, hence my somewhat sarcastic/satirical comment.




Rappstar wrote:
ericM40-44 wrote:
the money is going the wrong way for that to be true.

the WTC is under contract to the athlete. for the $800, the WTC is responsible to provide races to race in, prize money, and fair racing through drug testing.

Rappstar wrote:
Ellsworth53T wrote:
The athletes are under contract in those leagues and the leagues provide a living wage for the athlete. The triathletes, as far as im aware, are not under any sort of contract with WTC, and WTC certainly doesn't provide a guaranteed wage.


Any pro athlete who holds a WTC pro membership license is under contract. In exchange for a fixed yearly fee, each athlete is free to race as many WTC events as they wish, earn prize money, etc. In exchange, they agree to abide by a code of conduct, be available for drug testing, and some other pretty basic things you'd expect.


Not at all. You're just showing your ignorance of contract law here. There are a great many contracts where the payer agrees to a contract outlined by the payee. Club membership - like belonging to a golf club or tennis club or social club - is a prime example. You pay a fee, and you enter into a contract abiding by the club rules. HOAs are another example. There are others that don't involve membership that are also plentiful - e.g. a ski lift ticket is a contract you enter into with the resort operator. By purchasing it, you agree to certain things.

Yes, WTC is also bound by certain aspects of the contract as well - payment of prize money according to an established timeline, etc. But WTC is the membership organization here. It is more accurate to say that the athletes are under contract with WTC, rather than vice versa. Though, of course, given that it's a contract, it goes both ways.

I'm well aware of how it seems to be perceived, at least by some. But - as others in this thread have said, WTC puts on the races, pays out $5M in prize money, organized the first ever private-organization WADA-certfied drug testing program, etc. They organize the series.

While the differences between organized leagues - where players are employees and are paid a salary - and Ironman is obvious, the idea of a code of conduct - that also covers public discourse - is the norm in other sports much more similar to the Ironman - like golf. Ironman is, in many ways, surprisingly open as compared with the PGA: http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/...ions-arise-from.html

Anyway, per your comment on twitter, my "purpose" as an ambassador is:
- to make sure ANY athlete's concerns are raised
- to make sure ANY athlete's opinions are voiced
- to communicate the decision making process to athletes to the best of my ability.

I'm sure there are those who will see me as nothing more than a shill or a mouthpiece. I can't help that. But I think I've got pretty good moral checks both internally and externally. I guess I can live with that. I'm sorry if you don't agree.

I think this thread makes it pretty clear why WTC instituted the social media policy they have. I don't think my contributions here have made any difference at all. Unfortunately.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [rhys] [ In reply to ]
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It wasnt that long ago that pro athletes rec'd complimentary entry fees to races. Rev 3 did that early on to entice pros to come to their races. If I recall correctly it was a bit ad-hoc with the IM branded races- where some race directors did comp pro athletes and others didnt. I thought the $800 fee was a clever way to make the pros feel special - but I always thought that pros should be comp'd because I was looking to see them at the races! Whether as a spectator or racer. They were a simple loss leader.

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [tri4balance] [ In reply to ]
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Not true. SOME pro athletes got complimentary registration, not all.

Graham would never have compd a race for me if I took a pro card in 2004 or 2007 the 2 yrs I met the rediculously easy (at the time not sure in present) 10hr threshold. Yes, he compd Lisa Bentley but she won his races.

So for 90% of the pros (those who have no shot of winning Hawaii) the new system is better. So in fact, WTC does have a bridge for up & comers. $800 annual reg fee. Race all u want!

Again. Can explain numbers to suit the debate.

I think people are laying into WTC here unnecessarily. They are onto a path how to promote their business via pros while offering them a bridge to exposure in doing so. No one is entitled to make a living. You gotta earn a living. Sure WTC can do better but they could do way worse. And it's a free market with Challenge expanding all the time. Lots of opportunity.

I think we agree room for improvement but I see at least good steps being taken. I'm probably in minority on ST though with this opinion

@rhyspencer
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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For me the question is how to get more price money for the pros?

************************
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [CruseVegas] [ In reply to ]
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WTC is answering that question by trying to improve the media/professionalism of it's product.

------------------
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http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
WTC is answering that question by trying to improve the media/professionalism of it's product.

A lot of the pro's are just a mess in regards to developing a business model for their profession.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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See my response: WTC is TRYING to help with that.

------------------
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [rhys] [ In reply to ]
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I agree that how the $800/year fee is perceived is all about spin and individual perceptions of value. I have no doubt that some pros join the club simply to get what amounts to a 50% discount on their 3 ironman races per year. Others pay to join the club because, well, it's kinda cool to be part of an exclusive club.

And that allure of joining an exclusive club is a huge value to wtc. It's some of what inspires the top 10% of age groupers to race--maybe one day they too can join the club. Sometimes I think that allure is an even bigger value to wtc than what the top pros do.

I used to live near a ski hill that sold a season pass discounted for locals. In addition to unlimited skiing, it also gave perks beyond the normal season pass. Locals LOVED that pass because it was cool to be in the LOCALS club. A lot of non locals thought it was all kind of silly, because they thought the ski hill was way overrated. But it didn't matter because the locals were happy and the ski hill made money.

That's sort of what the wtc pro membership is.




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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Halvard wrote:

In other endurance sports the event organizer has to provide hotel, food and transportation at the race location (not to the location). I know that in cross country skiing the organizer has to provide room with three meals at a rate of USD 100 per day, also the top 30 get their room for free. Same with Swix Ski Classics.

What do you get of support from WTC?


I'm glad Brooks chimed in as I had a post about my short ITU career and support. Basically none from USAT outside of a uniform for a World Cup. And maybe some hotel help from ITU at 2 of the World Cups I races. That was 8 years ago, my memory is fuzzy. When Amy and I raced Long Course worlds in 2007, a small travel stipend was offered by USAT. For non-draft ITU World championship events now the only USAT funding is performance (podium) based...Long course, winter tri, cross tri, etc.

With WTC and support, Amy and I ask. It is that simple. Whether you call it support or compensation we ask for it when we register and if we are asked to participate in a non-mandatory WTC race weekend event. Hotel/travel support, there isn't really any official policy to my knowledge. At one time there was some support for the top-10 ranked athletes racing in Kona. I don't know if it was a set amount per athlete or if it was graduated based on ranking. If there is a policy it is 'case by case' or rather 'race by race' basis. The short answer to your question is that there is no support for the largest majority of the pro field.

Rev3 was kind of the same. You have to ask.

Per Jordan's post way up in this thread relating to the 'volunteer' requirement of pros. I haven't yet developed my opinion on the additional requirements placed on 'World Championship' athletes. On one hand, I believe that the opportunity for combined marketing by the professionals and WTC is a good step in the right direction...something that maybe should have been done long ago. On the other hand, I think that if these are truly the 'World Championship' athletes then the athletes 'time' should be compensated.

Thanks for answer.
I know founding to endurance sports are quite differently in different countries, but triathlon as all other sports are global so we have to look at more than the USA.
What I struggle to see in long distance triathlon, that I see in other endurance sports are an attempt to bring the sport up to date.
Other sports have world cups started in the early 80s. They have a media present. But most of all a structure, a platform making it easy to build a sport around.

This is a problem for long distance triathlon. But I also think this is a result of what long distance triathlon and people around it have wanted. They always wanted to be different and they are. Now you have a sport that has not developed on the top level when it come to structure and media. While all other endurance sports have.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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Best thing a young 20ish pro can do is to swim their ass off and try and make one of the French GP or German domestique itu teams and race draft legal every weekend in the summer.

------------------
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Best thing a young 20ish pro can do is to swim their ass off and try and make one of the French GP or German domestique itu teams and race draft legal every weekend in the summer.

QFT! But instead we get AG'ers who win their AG a few times, and maybe finish top 5 OA amateur at age 30 and they are so PRO baby!

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Halvard wrote:
-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Halvard wrote:

In other endurance sports the event organizer has to provide hotel, food and transportation at the race location (not to the location). I know that in cross country skiing the organizer has to provide room with three meals at a rate of USD 100 per day, also the top 30 get their room for free. Same with Swix Ski Classics.

What do you get of support from WTC?


I'm glad Brooks chimed in as I had a post about my short ITU career and support. Basically none from USAT outside of a uniform for a World Cup. And maybe some hotel help from ITU at 2 of the World Cups I races. That was 8 years ago, my memory is fuzzy. When Amy and I raced Long Course worlds in 2007, a small travel stipend was offered by USAT. For non-draft ITU World championship events now the only USAT funding is performance (podium) based...Long course, winter tri, cross tri, etc.

With WTC and support, Amy and I ask. It is that simple. Whether you call it support or compensation we ask for it when we register and if we are asked to participate in a non-mandatory WTC race weekend event. Hotel/travel support, there isn't really any official policy to my knowledge. At one time there was some support for the top-10 ranked athletes racing in Kona. I don't know if it was a set amount per athlete or if it was graduated based on ranking. If there is a policy it is 'case by case' or rather 'race by race' basis. The short answer to your question is that there is no support for the largest majority of the pro field.

Rev3 was kind of the same. You have to ask.

Per Jordan's post way up in this thread relating to the 'volunteer' requirement of pros. I haven't yet developed my opinion on the additional requirements placed on 'World Championship' athletes. On one hand, I believe that the opportunity for combined marketing by the professionals and WTC is a good step in the right direction...something that maybe should have been done long ago. On the other hand, I think that if these are truly the 'World Championship' athletes then the athletes 'time' should be compensated.


Thanks for answer.
I know founding to endurance sports are quite differently in different countries, but triathlon as all other sports are global so we have to look at more than the USA.
What I struggle to see in long distance triathlon, that I see in other endurance sports are an attempt to bring the sport up to date.
Other sports have world cups started in the early 80s. They have a media present. But most of all a structure, a platform making it easy to build a sport around.

This is a problem for long distance triathlon. But I also think this is a result of what long distance triathlon and people around it have wanted. They always wanted to be different and they are. Now you have a sport that has not developed on the top level when it come to structure and media. While all other endurance sports have.

Halvard, you keep trying to lump in long distance triathlon with XC skiing and keep saying how awesome a job they do in XC skiing. What I will say is that there are a lot more athletes able to make a living worldwide off long distance triathlon than XC skiing. And imagine if there was a worldwide XC ski series that was 75K skate followed by 75K classic. That should be around 8 hours for the top guys, maybe 9 hours. Now go ahead and package that up under the FIS umbrella and let's see how much TV interest that garners. No one would watch that race, because somwhere into the the classic leg, the final results will be firmed up 2-3 hours before he finish line. Then it will be a race of attrition. Sound famliar? Well, that's pretty well what happens in an Ironman...somewhere between 6-7 hours in, we pretty well know the final results. In rare cases the podium materialized early in the 8th hour.

Other sports are more easily able to package up their story for live media. For now, the "audience" for long distance triathlon are age groupers that are in the race. The "tickets" for the stadium are our entry fees. The live coverage is only watched by eyeballs who can't be in the race today, but will be in another race tomorrow, but overall the general sporting audience does not care to follow these live. I "THINK" the angle is packaging up the entire story in snippets for the media, showcasing the superhuman feats and the awesomeness of the pros...and that every man can be a part of the show, and aspire to be like the pros. How do we convert this into getting Credit Suisse, Goldman Sach's, Apple or Mercedes Benz to hope into our game? There are very deep pockets outside of the tri world that we collectively need to access to grow this sport. 100 pros chasing sponsorship from Cervelo or Specialized is just a bunch of guys fighting over the crumbs of a tiny pie. How do our pros get access to the large pie if we bring Apple, or Vodaphone into this game. Our sport is performance, oriented. We're about as PerformancexEndurance as you can get. In the electronics field, we're always trying for better endurance and superior performance. Triathlon delivers on that. So how do we get access to Lenovo or Reliance's marketing budgets?

Long course triathlon has all the attributes that performance oriented corporations want for their products and their employees. There has to be a better way to align our sport to the missions of these big companies. The pros are a key part of that packaging. Age groupers are in lots of positions of power to help open budgets. How do we connect the dotted lines. I THINK this is the nut that both WTC and Pros would benefit by cracking. Bless the guys at GoPro for being title sponsor of Kona, But I'd rather have Intel sponsoring Kona.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
Halvard wrote:
-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Halvard wrote:

In other endurance sports the event organizer has to provide hotel, food and transportation at the race location (not to the location). I know that in cross country skiing the organizer has to provide room with three meals at a rate of USD 100 per day, also the top 30 get their room for free. Same with Swix Ski Classics.

What do you get of support from WTC?


I'm glad Brooks chimed in as I had a post about my short ITU career and support. Basically none from USAT outside of a uniform for a World Cup. And maybe some hotel help from ITU at 2 of the World Cups I races. That was 8 years ago, my memory is fuzzy. When Amy and I raced Long Course worlds in 2007, a small travel stipend was offered by USAT. For non-draft ITU World championship events now the only USAT funding is performance (podium) based...Long course, winter tri, cross tri, etc.

With WTC and support, Amy and I ask. It is that simple. Whether you call it support or compensation we ask for it when we register and if we are asked to participate in a non-mandatory WTC race weekend event. Hotel/travel support, there isn't really any official policy to my knowledge. At one time there was some support for the top-10 ranked athletes racing in Kona. I don't know if it was a set amount per athlete or if it was graduated based on ranking. If there is a policy it is 'case by case' or rather 'race by race' basis. The short answer to your question is that there is no support for the largest majority of the pro field.

Rev3 was kind of the same. You have to ask.

Per Jordan's post way up in this thread relating to the 'volunteer' requirement of pros. I haven't yet developed my opinion on the additional requirements placed on 'World Championship' athletes. On one hand, I believe that the opportunity for combined marketing by the professionals and WTC is a good step in the right direction...something that maybe should have been done long ago. On the other hand, I think that if these are truly the 'World Championship' athletes then the athletes 'time' should be compensated.


Thanks for answer.
I know founding to endurance sports are quite differently in different countries, but triathlon as all other sports are global so we have to look at more than the USA.
What I struggle to see in long distance triathlon, that I see in other endurance sports are an attempt to bring the sport up to date.
Other sports have world cups started in the early 80s. They have a media present. But most of all a structure, a platform making it easy to build a sport around.

This is a problem for long distance triathlon. But I also think this is a result of what long distance triathlon and people around it have wanted. They always wanted to be different and they are. Now you have a sport that has not developed on the top level when it come to structure and media. While all other endurance sports have.


Halvard, you keep trying to lump in long distance triathlon with XC skiing and keep saying how awesome a job they do in XC skiing. What I will say is that there are a lot more athletes able to make a living worldwide off long distance triathlon than XC skiing. And imagine if there was a worldwide XC ski series that was 75K skate followed by 75K classic. That should be around 8 hours for the top guys, maybe 9 hours. Now go ahead and package that up under the FIS umbrella and let's see how much TV interest that garners. No one would watch that race, because somwhere into the the classic leg, the final results will be firmed up 2-3 hours before he finish line. Then it will be a race of attrition. Sound famliar? Well, that's pretty well what happens in an Ironman...somewhere between 6-7 hours in, we pretty well know the final results. In rare cases the podium materialized early in the 8th hour.

Other sports are more easily able to package up their story for live media. For now, the "audience" for long distance triathlon are age groupers that are in the race. The "tickets" for the stadium are our entry fees. The live coverage is only watched by eyeballs who can't be in the race today, but will be in another race tomorrow, but overall the general sporting audience does not care to follow these live. I "THINK" the angle is packaging up the entire story in snippets for the media, showcasing the superhuman feats and the awesomeness of the pros...and that every man can be a part of the show, and aspire to be like the pros. How do we convert this into getting Credit Suisse, Goldman Sach's, Apple or Mercedes Benz to hope into our game? There are very deep pockets outside of the tri world that we collectively need to access to grow this sport. 100 pros chasing sponsorship from Cervelo or Specialized is just a bunch of guys fighting over the crumbs of a tiny pie. How do our pros get access to the large pie if we bring Apple, or Vodaphone into this game. Our sport is performance, oriented. We're about as PerformancexEndurance as you can get. In the electronics field, we're always trying for better endurance and superior performance. Triathlon delivers on that. So how do we get access to Lenovo or Reliance's marketing budgets?

Long course triathlon has all the attributes that performance oriented corporations want for their products and their employees. There has to be a better way to align our sport to the missions of these big companies. The pros are a key part of that packaging. Age groupers are in lots of positions of power to help open budgets. How do we connect the dotted lines. I THINK this is the nut that both WTC and Pros would benefit by cracking. Bless the guys at GoPro for being title sponsor of Kona, But I'd rather have Intel sponsoring Kona.


Why do I use biathlon and cross country skiing as example because they have a system that works. And you also have long distance cross country skiing. And guess what, all events are on TV and/or streamed live. What a concept.

I want to see a world cup system in long distance triathlon. But of course not over the full distance. Only people that do not respect the health of athletes want them to race a full distance race more than once or maximum twice a year.

But again I do not think anything will happen in long distance triathlon. When you can have a world championship in 2014 without streaming the sport is where other endurance sports were in the 70s. Oh wait, those races were live on TV.

I am a happy buyer of the ITU pass. I can enjoy high quality racing with the best in the world live several time a year. And for a great price.
I am still searching for a video from the 70.3 world championship.

But my dad told me that the world championship in xc-skiing in Falun in 1974, that is 40 years ago was live.....................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpilKqr3890


Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So just so I can get some understanding.

Your talking about XC skiing in the Nordic countries right? I'm assuming that's one of the "bigger" sports for those countries? Triathlon in N. America is like 21st in ranking of importance tv/media coverage behind awesome sports like competitive eating and poker. So when you talk about XC skiing being "live" in your country, there has never been even an inkling of care for XC sking here in the States from an media standpoint.

ETA: Here in the US, we have nearly 8 hours of live coverage on the weekend for the roughly the top 5ish sports in the US (football, baseball, basketball, college fball, college bball).

So good for you that XC skiing is live in potential a few European countries, they certainly aren't live here in the States. So it's kinda tic for tac.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Sep 27, 14 18:32
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I wonder if the opportunity pros' to leverage off the "platform" WTC is talking about will be limited. It makes good business sense for WTC to sew up all the sponsorship dollars direct to WTC rather than build up the profile of the pros in their own right. The pros need to decide if they believe that any significant amount of the sponsorship dollars funnelled to WTC will filter down to the pros. If not, good luck to pros (other than perhaps half a dozen or so) making a living out of prize money from WTC races. Rather than bitching about WTC and then going back for more disrespect, vote with your feet. If enough of you do this, the sponsors (or at least the ones that you will want to work with anyway) will follow.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Halvard wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Halvard wrote:
-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Halvard wrote:

In other endurance sports the event organizer has to provide hotel, food and transportation at the race location (not to the location). I know that in cross country skiing the organizer has to provide room with three meals at a rate of USD 100 per day, also the top 30 get their room for free. Same with Swix Ski Classics.

What do you get of support from WTC?


I'm glad Brooks chimed in as I had a post about my short ITU career and support. Basically none from USAT outside of a uniform for a World Cup. And maybe some hotel help from ITU at 2 of the World Cups I races. That was 8 years ago, my memory is fuzzy. When Amy and I raced Long Course worlds in 2007, a small travel stipend was offered by USAT. For non-draft ITU World championship events now the only USAT funding is performance (podium) based...Long course, winter tri, cross tri, etc.

With WTC and support, Amy and I ask. It is that simple. Whether you call it support or compensation we ask for it when we register and if we are asked to participate in a non-mandatory WTC race weekend event. Hotel/travel support, there isn't really any official policy to my knowledge. At one time there was some support for the top-10 ranked athletes racing in Kona. I don't know if it was a set amount per athlete or if it was graduated based on ranking. If there is a policy it is 'case by case' or rather 'race by race' basis. The short answer to your question is that there is no support for the largest majority of the pro field.

Rev3 was kind of the same. You have to ask.

Per Jordan's post way up in this thread relating to the 'volunteer' requirement of pros. I haven't yet developed my opinion on the additional requirements placed on 'World Championship' athletes. On one hand, I believe that the opportunity for combined marketing by the professionals and WTC is a good step in the right direction...something that maybe should have been done long ago. On the other hand, I think that if these are truly the 'World Championship' athletes then the athletes 'time' should be compensated.


Thanks for answer.
I know founding to endurance sports are quite differently in different countries, but triathlon as all other sports are global so we have to look at more than the USA.
What I struggle to see in long distance triathlon, that I see in other endurance sports are an attempt to bring the sport up to date.
Other sports have world cups started in the early 80s. They have a media present. But most of all a structure, a platform making it easy to build a sport around.

This is a problem for long distance triathlon. But I also think this is a result of what long distance triathlon and people around it have wanted. They always wanted to be different and they are. Now you have a sport that has not developed on the top level when it come to structure and media. While all other endurance sports have.


Halvard, you keep trying to lump in long distance triathlon with XC skiing and keep saying how awesome a job they do in XC skiing. What I will say is that there are a lot more athletes able to make a living worldwide off long distance triathlon than XC skiing. And imagine if there was a worldwide XC ski series that was 75K skate followed by 75K classic. That should be around 8 hours for the top guys, maybe 9 hours. Now go ahead and package that up under the FIS umbrella and let's see how much TV interest that garners. No one would watch that race, because somwhere into the the classic leg, the final results will be firmed up 2-3 hours before he finish line. Then it will be a race of attrition. Sound famliar? Well, that's pretty well what happens in an Ironman...somewhere between 6-7 hours in, we pretty well know the final results. In rare cases the podium materialized early in the 8th hour.

Other sports are more easily able to package up their story for live media. For now, the "audience" for long distance triathlon are age groupers that are in the race. The "tickets" for the stadium are our entry fees. The live coverage is only watched by eyeballs who can't be in the race today, but will be in another race tomorrow, but overall the general sporting audience does not care to follow these live. I "THINK" the angle is packaging up the entire story in snippets for the media, showcasing the superhuman feats and the awesomeness of the pros...and that every man can be a part of the show, and aspire to be like the pros. How do we convert this into getting Credit Suisse, Goldman Sach's, Apple or Mercedes Benz to hope into our game? There are very deep pockets outside of the tri world that we collectively need to access to grow this sport. 100 pros chasing sponsorship from Cervelo or Specialized is just a bunch of guys fighting over the crumbs of a tiny pie. How do our pros get access to the large pie if we bring Apple, or Vodaphone into this game. Our sport is performance, oriented. We're about as PerformancexEndurance as you can get. In the electronics field, we're always trying for better endurance and superior performance. Triathlon delivers on that. So how do we get access to Lenovo or Reliance's marketing budgets?

Long course triathlon has all the attributes that performance oriented corporations want for their products and their employees. There has to be a better way to align our sport to the missions of these big companies. The pros are a key part of that packaging. Age groupers are in lots of positions of power to help open budgets. How do we connect the dotted lines. I THINK this is the nut that both WTC and Pros would benefit by cracking. Bless the guys at GoPro for being title sponsor of Kona, But I'd rather have Intel sponsoring Kona.


Why do I use biathlon and cross country skiing as example because they have a system that works. And you also have long distance cross country skiing. And guess what, all events are on TV and/or streamed live. What a concept.

I want to see a world cup system in long distance triathlon. But of course not over the full distance. Only people that do not respect the health of athletes want them to race a full distance race more than once or maximum twice a year.

But again I do not think anything will happen in long distance triathlon. When you can have a world championship in 2014 without streaming the sport is where other endurance sports were in the 70s. Oh wait, those races were live on TV.

I am a happy buyer of the ITU pass. I can enjoy high quality racing with the best in the world live several time a year. And for a great price.
I am still searching for a video from the 70.3 world championship.

But my dad told me that the world championship in xc-skiing in Falun in 1974, that is 40 years ago was live.....................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpilKqr3890



By purchasing the ITU pass you are agreeing with me exactly why XC skiing also works as a spectator sport at the elite level. Tight loops, multiple times, exciting head to head action. We both agree that adding a super sprint version to triathlon (like 200-400m swim, 2-4K bike, 500-1000m run with multiple rounds) would be perfect for TV. There are no long distance XC ski races that last for 8 hours. Exactly zero. In triathlon we have a worldwide series of >60 events that last 8 hours or more between WTC, Challenge and Independent events.

8 hours cannot be interesting to anyone but the most die hard like ourselves on this forum. Even a 4 hour half IM distance is ridiculous in terms of attention span. So saying that coverage works for XC skiing totally disregards 2 things:

  1. In more than 1 country in Northern Europe, XC skiing is the number 1 sport. In Canada, it is something like number 15. In the US, probably number 50
  2. 8 hours of any sport is not something that is going to fly on main stream live TV. There is a reason why the IPL went to 20/20 format (if you don't know what it is, read up and follow the money) vs 50/50 format....league was valued at $3.03B in only its 6th season: http://en.wikipedia.org/...ndian_Premier_League
  3. 2 hours is about the max you can package up live....3 hours is the stretch. Les MacDonald got that when he got triathlon into the Olympics (or if I recall correctly he was told to make sure the format did not exceed the marathon which was already too long for TV).



So saying that XC skiing is successful and Long Course triathlon is not is somewhat wrong. If you look at worldwide participation of in Long Course triathlon it covers more countries and participation than the ultra niche sport of XC skiing done my barely 15-20 countries (and its big in around 5-6 of those countries only). And if XC skiing had an 8 hour event, then you could come over here and tell us how everyone is totally pumped about the 8 hour XC ski events and its getting all day live coverage and people are shutting down at work to watch it. But you're comparing apples and oranges.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
So just so I can get some understanding.

Your talking about XC skiing in the Nordic countries right? I'm assuming that's one of the "bigger" sports for those countries? Triathlon in N. America is like 21st in ranking of importance tv/media coverage behind awesome sports like competitive eating and poker. So when you talk about XC skiing being "live" in your country, there has never been even an inkling of care for XC sking here in the States from an media standpoint.

ETA: Here in the US, we have nearly 8 hours of live coverage on the weekend for the roughly the top 5ish sports in the US (football, baseball, basketball, college fball, college bball).

So good for you that XC skiing is live in potential a few European countries, they certainly aren't live here in the States. So it's kinda tic for tac.

You will find cross country skiing and biathlon on Eurosport all over Europe both in English and in local lanuage. Then several countries also broadcast the same events.
The largest market for biathlon is Germany. I think a country with 80 millions is quite a big market. They even have show biathlon races indoor with 50,000 spectators.

Since long distance triathlon is a summer sport the market should be a lot larger. Still the 70.3 world championship was text only. And this is 2014.

I find it interesting that small sports like biathlon and cross country skiing can be live all over Europe every weekend all winter long. But you cannot even stream a 70.3 world championship.

But again, people seams happy with today's situation in long distance triathlon. I guess it is more fun for many people to follow text updates than live pictures.......
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So your essentially saying xc skiing is a very popular sport in Europe during the winter?


Here in the states triathlon ranks about 21st in media popularity for sports. So the solution I suggest is get your Eurosport guys to show up and do the races and broadcast them to Europe and maybe us markets buy the feed as well.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
Halvard wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Halvard wrote:
-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Halvard wrote:

In other endurance sports the event organizer has to provide hotel, food and transportation at the race location (not to the location). I know that in cross country skiing the organizer has to provide room with three meals at a rate of USD 100 per day, also the top 30 get their room for free. Same with Swix Ski Classics.

What do you get of support from WTC?


I'm glad Brooks chimed in as I had a post about my short ITU career and support. Basically none from USAT outside of a uniform for a World Cup. And maybe some hotel help from ITU at 2 of the World Cups I races. That was 8 years ago, my memory is fuzzy. When Amy and I raced Long Course worlds in 2007, a small travel stipend was offered by USAT. For non-draft ITU World championship events now the only USAT funding is performance (podium) based...Long course, winter tri, cross tri, etc.

With WTC and support, Amy and I ask. It is that simple. Whether you call it support or compensation we ask for it when we register and if we are asked to participate in a non-mandatory WTC race weekend event. Hotel/travel support, there isn't really any official policy to my knowledge. At one time there was some support for the top-10 ranked athletes racing in Kona. I don't know if it was a set amount per athlete or if it was graduated based on ranking. If there is a policy it is 'case by case' or rather 'race by race' basis. The short answer to your question is that there is no support for the largest majority of the pro field.

Rev3 was kind of the same. You have to ask.

Per Jordan's post way up in this thread relating to the 'volunteer' requirement of pros. I haven't yet developed my opinion on the additional requirements placed on 'World Championship' athletes. On one hand, I believe that the opportunity for combined marketing by the professionals and WTC is a good step in the right direction...something that maybe should have been done long ago. On the other hand, I think that if these are truly the 'World Championship' athletes then the athletes 'time' should be compensated.


Thanks for answer.
I know founding to endurance sports are quite differently in different countries, but triathlon as all other sports are global so we have to look at more than the USA.
What I struggle to see in long distance triathlon, that I see in other endurance sports are an attempt to bring the sport up to date.
Other sports have world cups started in the early 80s. They have a media present. But most of all a structure, a platform making it easy to build a sport around.

This is a problem for long distance triathlon. But I also think this is a result of what long distance triathlon and people around it have wanted. They always wanted to be different and they are. Now you have a sport that has not developed on the top level when it come to structure and media. While all other endurance sports have.


Halvard, you keep trying to lump in long distance triathlon with XC skiing and keep saying how awesome a job they do in XC skiing. What I will say is that there are a lot more athletes able to make a living worldwide off long distance triathlon than XC skiing. And imagine if there was a worldwide XC ski series that was 75K skate followed by 75K classic. That should be around 8 hours for the top guys, maybe 9 hours. Now go ahead and package that up under the FIS umbrella and let's see how much TV interest that garners. No one would watch that race, because somwhere into the the classic leg, the final results will be firmed up 2-3 hours before he finish line. Then it will be a race of attrition. Sound famliar? Well, that's pretty well what happens in an Ironman...somewhere between 6-7 hours in, we pretty well know the final results. In rare cases the podium materialized early in the 8th hour.

Other sports are more easily able to package up their story for live media. For now, the "audience" for long distance triathlon are age groupers that are in the race. The "tickets" for the stadium are our entry fees. The live coverage is only watched by eyeballs who can't be in the race today, but will be in another race tomorrow, but overall the general sporting audience does not care to follow these live. I "THINK" the angle is packaging up the entire story in snippets for the media, showcasing the superhuman feats and the awesomeness of the pros...and that every man can be a part of the show, and aspire to be like the pros. How do we convert this into getting Credit Suisse, Goldman Sach's, Apple or Mercedes Benz to hope into our game? There are very deep pockets outside of the tri world that we collectively need to access to grow this sport. 100 pros chasing sponsorship from Cervelo or Specialized is just a bunch of guys fighting over the crumbs of a tiny pie. How do our pros get access to the large pie if we bring Apple, or Vodaphone into this game. Our sport is performance, oriented. We're about as PerformancexEndurance as you can get. In the electronics field, we're always trying for better endurance and superior performance. Triathlon delivers on that. So how do we get access to Lenovo or Reliance's marketing budgets?

Long course triathlon has all the attributes that performance oriented corporations want for their products and their employees. There has to be a better way to align our sport to the missions of these big companies. The pros are a key part of that packaging. Age groupers are in lots of positions of power to help open budgets. How do we connect the dotted lines. I THINK this is the nut that both WTC and Pros would benefit by cracking. Bless the guys at GoPro for being title sponsor of Kona, But I'd rather have Intel sponsoring Kona.


Why do I use biathlon and cross country skiing as example because they have a system that works. And you also have long distance cross country skiing. And guess what, all events are on TV and/or streamed live. What a concept.

I want to see a world cup system in long distance triathlon. But of course not over the full distance. Only people that do not respect the health of athletes want them to race a full distance race more than once or maximum twice a year.

But again I do not think anything will happen in long distance triathlon. When you can have a world championship in 2014 without streaming the sport is where other endurance sports were in the 70s. Oh wait, those races were live on TV.

I am a happy buyer of the ITU pass. I can enjoy high quality racing with the best in the world live several time a year. And for a great price.
I am still searching for a video from the 70.3 world championship.

But my dad told me that the world championship in xc-skiing in Falun in 1974, that is 40 years ago was live.....................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpilKqr3890



By purchasing the ITU pass you are agreeing with me exactly why XC skiing also works as a spectator sport at the elite level. Tight loops, multiple times, exciting head to head action. We both agree that adding a super sprint version to triathlon (like 200-400m swim, 2-4K bike, 500-1000m run with multiple rounds) would be perfect for TV. There are no long distance XC ski races that last for 8 hours. Exactly zero. In triathlon we have a worldwide series of >60 events that last 8 hours or more between WTC, Challenge and Independent events.

8 hours cannot be interesting to anyone but the most die hard like ourselves on this forum. Even a 4 hour half IM distance is ridiculous in terms of attention span. So saying that coverage works for XC skiing totally disregards 2 things:


  1. In more than 1 country in Northern Europe, XC skiing is the number 1 sport. In Canada, it is something like number 15. In the US, probably number 50
  2. 8 hours of any sport is not something that is going to fly on main stream live TV. There is a reason why the IPL went to 20/20 format (if you don't know what it is, read up and follow the money) vs 50/50 format....league was valued at $3.03B in only its 6th season: http://en.wikipedia.org/...ndian_Premier_League
  3. 2 hours is about the max you can package up live....3 hours is the stretch. Les MacDonald got that when he got triathlon into the Olympics (or if I recall correctly he was told to make sure the format did not exceed the marathon which was already too long for TV).



So saying that XC skiing is successful and Long Course triathlon is not is somewhat wrong. If you look at worldwide participation of in Long Course triathlon it covers more countries and participation than the ultra niche sport of XC skiing done my barely 15-20 countries (and its big in around 5-6 of those countries only). And if XC skiing had an 8 hour event, then you could come over here and tell us how everyone is totally pumped about the 8 hour XC ski events and its getting all day live coverage and people are shutting down at work to watch it. But you're comparing apples and oranges.


Of course triathlon has more participants. It is a summer sport and most countries have no snow. But why are winter sports live on Eurosport while long distance triathlon has text updates. Since the market is bigger, why is the coverage lagging small sports. That does not make any sense.

The winner of Vasaloppet used 4.14. The race was broadcast live in several countries and of course live over the Internet.
The WTC/Ironman 70.3 world championship had text updates, even though the competition had never seen better athletes.

Why are you jumping to full distance? 70.3 takes as long as cycling or long distance xc-skiing.

But after what I understand you think today's situation is perfect for the pros. Well I disagree.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
But why are winter sports live on Eurosport while long distance triathlon has text updates.

----------

Because the governing company of the world championship is an American based company and in America, triathlon has zero media appeal. So your essentially talking about NBA basketball for comparison to your European counterpart. So since you keep pushing this international brand, go talk to eurosport about broadcasting these events. WTC already admitted their mistake about the text only updates and in the past at Vegas, they had live video feed updates.

So I suggest you get behind your European friends to push for it to be broadcast in Europe only at this current time, unless you want to wait 6 weeks after the race and see the recap that will be shown soon.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Sep 27, 14 20:15
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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First, can we stop quoting the entire thread in every post.

Second, you are looking at apples and oranges. You have been given numerous reasons why skiing is televised and triathlon isn't. Triathlon has no real market to sustain live tv coverage in North America. If advertisers wanted to pay for it, we would see it on TV.

You have a hard time looking outside your cultural upbringing. Don't forget that many people on this forum have diverse backgrounds and understand what other sports are doing. I've spent close to 20 yrs in xc skiing, worked at Olympic Games, world cups, world juniors, etc. I know what goes into a FIS race and the money that changes hands. I know what athletes are making in different countries. Skiing isn't anywhere near as plush as you make it seem. A significant number of World Cup skiers make a living because of government programs that pay them as police or military.

But, if you think Europe is the prime market, get it started and reap the benefits. Must be lots if money for the taking.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Whilst what you say is true - no one is tuning in for a 8 hours race - though people tune in for the 2 weeks of Paris Dakar....

The issue here is that in almost any other sport, it is the governing body that puts on the world championship, here it is a for profit corporation.

there's nothing wrong with being for profit or a corporation, but in general, most sporting governing bodies are interested, not matter in how twisted away, the development of their sport first, profit second, here we have the reverse, any drivers WTC implement, are not for the betterment of the sport, but the betterment of their bottom line and that is a fundamental difference.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Except I don't think who actually owns the race is the reason why it's lacking media coverage. I think the fact that it's a freaking 8 hour long boring race and has zero appeal. Go look at the ITU World Champs that happened last weekend, they had zero live coverage other than the same type of live texting.

Whether it's WTC or ITU who runs the world championship, neither are getting the race on bigger media forums.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [atasic] [ In reply to ]
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atasic wrote:
I love the censorship part. Much like the rest of corporate America, WTC makes communist look like amateurs.

It's so interesting how many American's have such disdain for corporate America, yet love receiving a paycheck. But, I'm also viewing this thru the lens of an economist, where corporate America is the engine to our great country. Also your comparison to communism is off target. Communist don't have choices. Employees, including pro triathletes, do have choices.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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