Interesting...I like all the new competition for PMs...it will make the entire market better - consumers win.

Looks like the love child of Vectors and Stages.

hope its a quality product, then consumers will win

Looks great and too good to be true all at the same time. I hope it really is as good as it looks.

https://www.facebook.com/...eamPowerBeat?fref=ts

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Ditch the carbage - Go keto!

Looks like this is a very recent development. Wonder what the release date is. Certainly glad to see another power meter (and with a relatively cheap cost).

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Dtyrrell

Let's hope. Remember that the vector was also supposed to be a price-point game changer (sub $1000) and available back in 2009!

If you can put two sensors and two computers that each have to communicate wirlessly for $500

imagine what you could do if you put one sensor in the spider, with one computer?

$250? =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Looks like crap that wouldn't last a season, but if they actually bring it to market it could help lower prices on other meters. While I have nothing concrete to base this on, I suspect there are several meters that could come down 40-50% and still have a reasonable profit margin.

Thanks for posting. I want to get a powermeter this fall and use it to train up over the winter. I an thinking powertap, but I may consider this one.

x2 on this...


but it does look good!!!!

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

That is one of the most innovative looking power meters I have ever seen. Very interesting

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

This would be fantastic...I hope it works and they're right about the price point.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

WOW, has my attention. I wonder if its able to be swapped easily

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"Base training is bull shit" - desertdude

Well, at least we know it will actually increase power output, since they use "accelerators" ;-)

Hmmm...looks like that sort of system is going to REQUIRE a user torque slope calibration...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Yeah, but then it wouldn't be the "GOLD" standard anymore . . . .

Is this just Stages without the preassembled crank arm (and 2 sensors) or is it measuring power in a fundamentally different way?

If it is consistent and measuring something close to real power, $500 is starting to get into the range where "good enough" might be acceptable.

Well the sensor is in a different spot, so the extent to which it is the same as stages is sorta the same extent to which all power meters are the same. Slap a strain gauge somewhere in the drivetrain!


In other words, if it works good enough, it will be good enough?

I agree!

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Is it just me or does it look like the drive-side sensor/unit wouldn't survive a dropped chain very well?

Overall, way too much marketing stench with this thing ranging from "accelerators" to this choice quote:


Worldwide patent! Millisecond torque measurement! Wow!

Maybe the website is some kind of performance art.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I'm just wondering if the "Starting at $499" version is just for one side of the crank. Their ad text does seem to imply both sides but I'm left wondering what the fancier versions would provide beyond the base unit. Perhaps cranks with the units already installed?

What ever the case, competition in the market place is almost always a good thing.

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

They should eliminate those wires and have the sensor mounted inside the unit.

No, it doesn't look like an external Stages clone. That sensor stack is very unique. ...and REALLY interesting. It still looks reliant on the flex of the crank arm, but in a geometrically different way. From what you can gather from the quick clip in the video, that patented algorithm they mention is likely doing some serious massaging of the signals they're getting.

I don't think you could do that without gluing/taping the entire box to your crank arm. And the wire likely provides some strain relief so the sensor isn't influenced by anything other than the crank arm flex.

But, yeah, it's asking to get snagged on something...the dropped chain scenario could be pretty bad.

Hey man, chill out... Looking at the website, the guys are all Israeli. Not sure you want to poke that bear unless you want a serious taste of Krav Maga.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Agree sounds too good to be true. How would the device be calibrated for the various cranks that would have different flex properties?

Not an engineer but not sure how this would be even possible?

Best,
GS

Apply a series of torques in the range human cyclists create in increments, measure the strain output, build a database of various cranks and how they response. Send the appropriate mapping table to the customer based on their crank.

I made this up, but seems legit.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I would rather have the user calibrate it the first time- that way you're not susceptible to slight differences in mounting position, or different model years of cranks and other variations.

You would have to put a series of weights hanging from the pedals that are in the range of typical forces, tell the unit what that weight is, and they'd get a strain profile from that.

The wire is the first thing I noticed. I think the metal bracket for the unit is good & looks solid, but the wire & sensor (which I only assume sticks on with double sided tape) makes me wary.

According to the video, the strain gauge sensor is the little thing that gets glued to the crank arm. I assume to keep that sensor small and keep the whole thing cheap, they need the wire to connect it to the pod hanging off the pedal for power from the battery and to get the data to the computer/ANT + transmitter in the pod (I think there are some other sensors in there too but again, once you hang a pod off the pedal, you don't have to buy/build super small sensors which surely shaves off costs too).

If I understand correctly how this thing must work, you could easily make it a one piece package glued to the crankarm. But, then it would cost more and just be another Stages ;-)

I don't know why you couldn't just put a layer of tape over it to smooth it out and protect the wire. Might look a bit unsightly, but w black crank arms, electrical tape should fit in nicely. Only risk there is if the tape gets a bit loose, it's flying close to your cranks.

100 MPH tape?

My initial thought is that the comp unit is in a location that will receive a lot of abuse... at least the end of my cranks seem to get a lot of chips. And I bet they have a tough time achieving good accuracy.

Watteam PowerBeat uses the most advanced strain gauge technology, along with an optimized processor, accelerators and gyros to accurately detect your power output.


Built from rods and springs, our worldwide patented mechanical sensor attaches easily to both of your crank arms. It senses your pedal stroke up to the millisecond, recording the direct and immediate torque that you apply.

Our sensor then feeds the data to our patented algorithm, located inside the comp unit, where it is translated into accurate power data.

For the tech geeks....here's a link to their US patent

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20130333489.pdf

What's a "worldwide patent?"

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

According to what I found "on the 'net" it won't be available "this fall", but next year.

Uh yeah. Which quarter? Before or after brim brothers I wonder.

It's a marketing term for a set of patents or patent applications in various countries. There is no such thing as a single patent that protects IP around the world, but you can file with the various patent offices around the world. I'd assume that they filed in the US, European Union (which has a single patent office for the entire EU), Australia, Canada and maybe Japan.

Not sure you're aware but Brim Brothers is being released at the bike show in Vegas this year.. September 10th... this from their news page.....??

I had to ditch them after following for over a year last year when I realised their platform doesn't allow for the speedplay adaptor plate (rearward cleat position).. shame... but a stages had done everything I need.... apart form the 2 failed units.. v3 seems OK tho..


Barry says:
August 5, 2014 at 08:20
Paul, don’t fret, it’s coming! Launching at Interbike in Las Vegas on 10th September! You’re on our pre-order list so you will get information as soon as we release it. I see you’re close to the top of the list (thanks for your patience) which means that you will be among the first to have an opportunity to get your hands on a Zone power meter.

  
DC Rainmaker ...

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/...their-powerbeat.html

I am an engineer and I was thinking along those lines. Seems like the easiest and likeliest of several things that they could do.

which ones? And a reasonable profit margin at which point in the sales stream? And what's a "reasonable" profit margin?


just curious

Lava magazine said it's not going to be released until Spring 2015 so if you want one for the Fall you'll have to go another route.

So Ray says you get the pair (2) for $500. Does either one work alone independently? It would be an interesting business/social experiment if 1 works just fine, and see if people start pairing up to split the cost, or if individual units go on sale second hand/aftermarket?

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Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.

SRM have publicly said they do not feel any need to adjust pricing due to others in the market. That is one, not several, though.

I would have to presume that one unit talks to the other, and that unit talks to the computer, just like the Vectors do. I don't think your typical ANT+ cycling computer is capable of taking in data from two power meter sources at the same time.

I am WOW'ed that they intend to have end users bond the sensor module to the crank arm. Obviously this helps them to reduce manufacturing costs and produce a universal power meter but I can't believe that a lot of people won't fuck the installation up. Just look at all the other power meters which are affected by installation issues (polar, ergomo, LOOK, Vector). I consider myself pretty handy and would be very wary of doing this.

That makes sense. Suppose the Brim Brothers Zone work that way too? One still wonders if it would make sense for them to sell a single (the one that talks to the head unit also) for lets say $300 for the budget conscious athlete?

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Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.

Thank you for the link -this thread is a nice illustration of why it's often best to "leave it to the professionals" (ie the
rainmaker) and side step a lot of bluster and speculation.

All of them today are requiring both pods. Technically though, most of these companies manufacture both pods identically (Garmin, Polar, Brim, Rotor) from a hardware standpoint and simply assign them a unique value/side upon leaving factory. In the case of Vector, that actually happens dynamically each installation based on the pedal utilized.

That said, all of these companies have also said that if market conditions demand they could go single-sided. We've seen that with ROTOR recently (albeit with dorked up pricing), and I think we'll likely see it with others.

For companies just entering the market though it doesn't really make much business sense. So taking PowerBeat, they'll sell a gazillion units at $499 (assuming it's accurate, etc...). It would make good business sense for them to meet demand, then once they can do that they can look at halfies. Same goes for Brim, etc... Since the actual cost of goods on some of these is relatively low (for a second pod), that allows them to recoup much of their long-tail initial costs.

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My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com

I work with strain gauges for a living. Let me tell everyone here that bonding strain gauges to a surface is not the most straightforward as it sounds.

1) clean surface- I bond strain gauges to human bone and it is extremely difficult to get a clean surface here. Engineering materials are easier but you have to sand, clean with acetone, and make sure you dont touch the gauge surface. AT ALL. If your glue layer is too thick, your readings will be out as well. I use dental tools and a magnifier to help me here- I realise their sensor unit is actually bigger, but still tells you the level of precision and cleanliness you need.

2) Im skeptical about their claims of being compatible with every crank. Their sensor looks like it needs a flat surface to bond, so cranks with curved edges-ala campy- may be out.

3) surface properties- what a strain gauge essentially measures is the deformation of the surface layer. Which means that if your crank has a chip in the lacquer layer and you mount it there you'd get slightly different readings than if you mounted it on the lacquer. What this also means that the sensor is 'one use only'- I highly doubt you could transfer it from crank to crank. Any damage from riding/transport and you'd need a new sensor- given the location and type of manufacture, this is probably going to be reasonably often. How much would a replacemnt sensor cost? 60usd? A strain rosette costs about 20usd from my suppliers, so you do the math. Add in the man hour cost of any repairs and re-mounting you need to do.

4) misalignment errors- this is one where I dont know how they're going to get around. It is incredibly easy to misalign a strain gauge. I highly suspect. They'd be using rosettes, rather than uniaxial gauges because theres no way an average Joe will stick on a uniaxial gauge with any degree of accuracy on their first try. To mount rosettes I actually very lightly score the location with a scalpel blade - thats the degree that I need to get it to. Even with a rosette, the chances of misalignment are still quite high, especially if you're not used to precision work. I dont know how robust their algorithm is to misalignment, bur my guess is going to be: not enough for the mass market.

5) damage- strain gauges are pretty sensitive to getting damaged- they are tiny things with connecting wires about 0.5mm thick. Even protected, there are chances things can go wrong. Especially for such an exposed unit.

My opinion? I'd be curious to try it, simply because ive done similar things so it wouldnt be that difficult. But you'd have to pull the cranks and chainrings, and have a reasonably clean environment to do this properly. Ideally you'd want to have a good to pro level bike shop help you with this- similar in concept to how pioneer is doing this. I really hope it works, and maybe they're working with better equipment than i'm used to, but I'm skeptical. Could it be 'good enough'? Probably. But for all that trouble, good enough won't cut it. Pay the slight extra for a stages and save yourself alot if trouble.

From reading their material, I don't think they'll be asking the user to do the actual strain gauge bonding as you describe. Instead, that is already done to a flexible member (don't know the exact configuration of that, but it will be interesting to see) which is then in turn attached to the crankarm. It will be interesting to see what, if any, user calibration is required and how stable that mounting is over time.

You know...at that price point, PT hubs sure look pretty darned nice still...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

jut curious where you read/heard this statement from SRM?

Chuckle chuckle. Ok enough juvenile humor, carry on carry on...

I've heard similar from them at Interbike...along with the statement that their true focus is on the pro riders, and if you want to be like a pro rider, then that's going to cost you (or words to that effect)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Is this essentially the flo of PM's? For the "budget" athlete, great alternative?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

No. The "Flo of PMs" would be a Flo PM ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'm up for anything that gives me an affordable way to out a PM on Helium. Chorus group and Ksyrium SLR wheels don't give me many options.

Vector and Power2max are both too expensive. Used quarq would work, but putting that crank on the campy group seems wrong.

Though this does look a bit delicate to me.

I'll admit I didn't read the whole thread. DCRainmaker reviewed a $500 power meter here http://www.dcrainmaker.com/...their-powerbeat.html , Is that the same one?

Yes that's the same one, but it's not really a review, it's more like a preview.

Be patient fellow cyclists. Jon and Chris(Flo Cycling) are developing a power meter for the rest of us. There is speculation that a prototype is nearing completion. I don't expect to have one in hand until next year, however. Maybe they will have it ready for Interbike.
Joe

> Maybe they will have it ready for Interbike.

And we all know that once you show a working power meter at Interbike, it's all smooth sailing from there!

I expect that Stages should be able to easily produce a L-R version of their PM pretty easily. They should jump in this game as they have a product that is much more proven than Vector, or other unknown products.

I agree with you. A bluetooth capable, left/right power meter from Stages would be fantastic!

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Where would Stages fit their sensor on the drive side?

Exactly.

Meanwhile, some of us have been benefitting from power data since before the turn of the millennium...

The inaccuracies that would introduce into your power data could possibly be very big. you're trying to measure the the strain at the crank through 4 surface layers 1) crank to glue boundary 2) glue to member boundary 3) member to cyanocryolate/epoxy boundary 4) cyanocryolate/epoxy boundary to strain rosette. I know from my work that a layer of cyanocryolate between rosettes and the surfaces I work with introduce +/- 2% error into strain readings, which is still acceptable. over 4 different surface layers? how big would your error be? maybe 10%?

Could you make it work? with ALOT of testing, I'm sure as heck you could implement an algorithm to take that into account. I shudder to think about the poor sod who's got to take viscoelasticities of any glue/epoxy you're working with and different stress transmissions across those layers. At least pioneer has slightly better, potentially workable system for a custom installed power meter. I don't really see how this is going to work.

like I said, it may be POSSIBLY 'good enough', just like stages is with NDS power only. for many people. but I'm skeptical and I honestly think at that price point and the level of accuracy you'd get, coupled with all the possbilities of things going wrong, a powertap or stages would be slightly more expensive but still be way superior in the long run.

All for the price of a Quarq, or more than a Power2Max...nah I'm good

is srm giggling somewhere

http://www.behindthebarriers.tv/...-meter-factory-tour/

If you look at what stages has to do to get accurate calibration, slope, etc for each individual unit. I find it hard to believe that a unit bonded by the user will be accurate enough to train effectively with. But the whole industry has a tendency to cause skepticism based on its track record.

Their Patent has a leaf spring to whcih the strain gauges are attached to. so they are not measuring DIRECT strain. I'm very interested to see how this works or what their algorithm is doing.

Quote:

bluetooth capable

I'm genuinely curious. Why is bluetooth a primary requirement? Are you using an iPhone or something like that as a head unit?