Not sure what his reason might be (could be a million different things, honestly), but if you check @EnduranceCult on Twitter, they did have a funny picture about it. :)

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- John
"Have courage, and be kind."

I'd suspect he was playing at the level of intensity he is used to playing at...it's just that a level that high, under hotter conditions, is probably too high for him...thus cramps. Really no different than if a triathlete tried to race at the same intensity in 60 degree weather with 40% humidity as they would in 85 degree weather with 80% humidity.

Also keep in mind that LeBron is a big dude. 6'8" and 250ish pounds of muscle. So he likely suffers the same ill effects that bigger guys deal with in triathlon as well.

The mainstream sports media also do not think steroids have any big effect on athletes.
These guys are interested in rating, not facts and science.

But it can be good entertainment.

Maybe he drank too much Coke before the game?

But why is that? If its not dehydration or loss of electrolyte, why does the same level of intensity in a hotter environment lead to cramps?

Its not that I don't think hotter conditions impact performance, but are cramps really one of the impacts? And if so, what is the mechanism?

Occam's razor. Why would you discount the heat in the arena? He has played 1000's of games, this one no different except for the heat in the arena. I do not understand why so many just put their heads in the sand and ignore the obvious. Of course other things cause cramps, but of all the things that do, it seems apparent to anyone paying attention, that it happens more often in hot conditions. From there it is no great leap to figure out what happens to the body in hotter conditions.

It is very simple, but like global warming, just gonna be deniers no matter what the evidence and observations.

My guess is the same level of intensity in a hotter environment isn't actually the same intensity, it's much higher and Lebron must have not been endurance to compete at the same level with a more challenging environment.

This makes sense to me, thanks. And he may have been hit with it while others weren't because he's (1) genetically predisposed and (2) may have been playing harder than them in the situation.

sheesh, this topic took much longer to appear on this board than I thought it would

Clearly, the king needs salt tabs!

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The new Gatorade commercials should quit bothering showing Paul George, Bryce Harper, etc...and just show LeBron being carried to the bench due to cramps.

I heard on the radio this morning that Gatorade was tweeting during the game that LBJ wasn't drinking G but powerade......as if

I think i saw a tweet from gatorade on the news that said something like, sorry for his cramps, our athletes had no problems at all!! Apparently there was a falling out or non starter contract with gatorade awhile back, low blow..

He over biked!

Dwayne Wade should of given LeBron one of his blue Endura Cool Towels!

Wade is a spokesman for Endura Cool Towels and I did not see ANY on the Heat bench!

LJ sure could of used one or several last night! He looked half dead sitting on the bench!

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Hook Em' Horns

A lot of your body's energy goes to cooling itself under hot conditions. This makes the same movement speeds even more intense when performed in a heated environment. Lebron is also very massive. He is probably tougher to cool than skinnier guys. The extra effort and intensity somehow impacts cramping. I've definitely see cramping as an intensity issue vis-a-vis a certain muscle group along with nutritional and training factors. In other words, yes, Lebron probably could have eaten and drank better before and during the game. He also would have benefited from training in 90+ heat (had he known that would be the conditions he was going to play in).

And for a long time the trainers used the Occam's Razor approach to explain this: Cramps in heat, must be the sweating, loss of salt, dehydration. When really, its just extra effort to do the same thing under hotter conditions that is causing it. This actually makes a lot of sense not just for basketball but for what we do as well.

Interestingly, it shows the opposite of what many of his critics are saying today. He isn't soft, he was actually playing harder than everybody else.

This was Gatorade tweet
https://twitter.com/...360248586240/photo/1

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SmartBikeTrainers.com || YouTube || My Twitter

It's not really a falling out when Lebron is a spokesperson for Powerade (hence the coke comment above is technically is right since they own them).

He failed to consult ST on dealing with playing in warmer than normal conditions..... No speculation required.

Yes, I've got nothing bad to say about Lebron. A guy that plays so hard that his legs cramp up and simply stop? I'll take that guy on my team. I'm going for San Antonio this series, but I would gladly straight up trade any San Antonio player for Lebron.

>And for a long time the trainers used the Occam's Razor approach to explain this: Cramps in heat, must be the sweating, loss of salt, dehydration. When really, its just extra effort to do the same thing under hotter conditions that is causing it. This >actually makes a lot of sense not just for basketball but for what we do as well.

That's too simple of an explanation for me. Basketball players go hard. As hard as they can. NBA finals. Their bodies don't have "extra effort" to exert when it gets hotter. What happens when it gets hotter is they slow down. Just like triathletes slow down when it gets hot.

Hmmm... I would say there is not an "extra effort" they can give during a normal game, but a game played in 100 degree heat can be much more taxing -- both during the game and recovering afterwards -- than a game played a room temperature. Lebron said he felt like he had played a whole game by the third quarter. It's not just slowing down. Your system is also being taxed by having to cool itself.

Deadspin did a pretty good summary of it all:http://deadspin.com/...tm_medium=socialflow

Their last line was the best - "Gatorade has not yet apologized for perpetuating bad science by claiming cramps are due to dehydration and can be cured by ingesting electrolytes—claims that don't stand up to scrutiny."

(if that doesn't come through, there are 5 links to the electrolyte/cramping myth)

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When it's hot, your heart rate is higher and you expend a lot more energy and recover much slower tha nwhen it's cooler. SO look at it this way. If you on the trainer making 250W and that threshold. If it's a lot hotter, your threshold is closer to 240W and you body's "overhead" is higher. If you try and ride at 250, you will be at 104% and will fatigue faster. If it's a 1 hour race, you'll run the risk of cramping near the end.

Heat adds stress. Too much stress and your muscles reach a limit of being able to contract on command. A cramp is your muscles contracting uncontrollably.

Dehydration also adds stress. I won;t say that there's no relationship, but you basically barking up the wrong tree as I've been insanely well hydrated and "salted" and still have gotten cramps. I've also been fairly dehydrated at the end of long runs and not gotten them.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

 

>Hmmm... I would say there is not an "extra effort" they can give during a normal game, but a game played in 100 degree heat can be much more taxing -- both during the game and recovering afterwards -- than a game played a room temperature. >Lebron said he felt like he had played a whole game by the third quarter. It's not just slowing down. Your system is also being taxed by having to cool itself.

Right. Your body undergoes more stress from heat. But that's distinct from effort.

So the question is: why does the increased heat disproportionally affect some people more than others?

Body mass/surface area? Maybe. But at least from my anecdotal viewing of NFL games, the linemen don't seem to cramp any more than cornerbacks.

Training? Maybe. But LeBron is probably extremely well trained. And we've all seen elite triathletes cramp. Kona, etc. And some research has shown that elite athletes cramp at roughly the same rate as recreational athletes.

Genetics? Sure, but that's just a hand-waving answer. The question is: what's the specific mechanism that's triggered by different genetics?

I believe that dehydration and electrolytes should still be on the table. Some research has shown that very heavy sweaters are indeed prone to dehydration and electrolyte loss. Just not the general population as a whole,e g. not enough to explain most incidence of cramping. Maybe 'Bron 'Bron is a very heavy sweater.

Or maybe the Golgi-body thing, which I don't understand yet.

Training? Maybe. But LeBron is probably extremely well trained. And we've all seen elite triathletes cramp. Kona, etc. And some research has shown that elite athletes cramp at roughly the same rate as recreational athletes.


Training specifically in the heat has definite advantages over training under room temperature conditions. Those gains would be pretty specific to playing basketball in the heat.

  
>Training specifically in the heat has definite advantages over training under room temperature conditions. Those gains would be pretty specific to playing basketball in the heat.

But in our sample, presumably no one trains in the heat. Except maybe off-season streetball. But it's not offseason yet.


Also training in the heat only has advantages (I think?) for competing in the heat.

What about Lebron's core temperature? All the water and electrolytes in the world mean nothing if your body can't thermoregulate itself. As we all know damn well, the ice cups on the run are an absolute godsend. Obviously they weren't prepared for such an occasion, but if the trainers could have put ice packs on his major arteries during timeouts and bench time, he might have lasted the whole game.

>What about Lebron's core temperature? All the water and electrolytes in the world mean nothing if your body can't thermoregulate itself. As we all know damn well, the ice cups on the run are an absolute godsend. Obviously they weren't prepared for >such an occasion, but if the trainers could have put ice packs on his major arteries during timeouts and bench time, he might have lasted the whole game.

Actually "the research" indicates that ice packs are useless at reducing core temperature. But you go faster because they make you feel cooler. So they work, in a sense.

But, by the effort/stress theory, then 'Bron would have cramped earlier/more if he'd used ice because he'd have worked harder despite no reduction in core temperature. Unless cramps are also "mental."

It's really confusing.

many of the players were in fact putting bags of ice on the back of their necks last night

again.....this has nothing to do with Triathlon training.......not sure exactly what we have the Lavender room for, but for the love of God, can we please stop posting up threads that are completely irrelevant in here?

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"I would definitely smell her seat after a century ride"

THIS

Cramping doesn't have anything to do with triathlon training?

Unless cramps are also "mental."


Cramps are, without a doubt, mental. That doesn't mean they are willed, but they are mental. Have you ever had a side stitch and just tried to run through it? Your whole body will start to cramp to protect your breathing.

Or maybe Slowman could just no longer make it mandatory to read and post in every thread that appears...

Haha! You posted this in a thread about music AT a triathlon/transition area:


http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...rch_string=;#5113219

Does any research show that this dehydration or electrolyte loss in these heavy sweaters correlates to cramps?

I really need to reevaluate and lower my expectations about this place....it's true what everyone is saying at races and on training rides that ST is the new cesspool filled abyss where over the hill endurance athletes go after all else fails and their lives have reached the proverbial rock bottom! I was at my LBS last week and the mechanic overheard me mentioning something I read in here, and he rolled his eyes and walked away.....my LBS mechanic is the smartest man I know!

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"I would definitely smell her seat after a century ride"

Dude...you threw a fit because someone asked what type of music people like to hear at a triathlon in transition ON A TRIATHLON SITE!
Then threw another hissy fit because people are talking about another sport that had a top athlete have the same type of issue many triathletes have...CRAMPING IN HOT WEATHER!

If your LBS mechanic is the smartest man you know, you need to get out more...just sayin...

PS- Since you are posting now, does this mean you are now an "over the hill endurance athlete" whose life has "reached the proverbial rock bottom!"?

Look at his stats Matt. He joined less than two months ago and immediately started posting 10 times a day. Don't feed the troll. He thrives on attention.

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"Sweep the leg...Do you have a problem with that?" - John Kreese

10x a day? Really? Look out Jackmott... Then I guess he does have a say in where the "mods" should move threads... OK everyone, stop posting now! Let the thread roll off the 1st page... I'll start the umpteenth thread on how to defizz coke... See you there shivermetimbers... Those thread ARE triathlon. BOOM!

 
>Does any research show that this dehydration or electrolyte loss in these heavy sweaters correlates to cramps?

Here.

"...sweat sodium was two times higher in C versus NC (54.6 +/- 16.2 vs. 25.3 +/- 10.0 mmol/L)"

Where C=cramper, NC=non-cramper

There's at least one other study with a similar finding, but I can't find it at the moment.

Loss of sodium/electrolytes may not be the straight-up "cause," but may still be part of the story.

and when all else fails, and no one can engage in a cogent discussion to disprove or retort my assertions.......twitchers resort to the post count/join date rebuttal. Please tell me you have something else.....please tell me the reputation of life long twitchers everywhere haven't pinned their hopes to your trolling argument and lack of membership time?

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"I would definitely smell her seat after a century ride"

Ummm...what assertions? You mean the ones unrelated to either triathlon or this thread topic?? Just whining and bitching because you think you were on the verge of finding the Holy Grail of threads that would give you the magic bullet to get fast at tri sooper quick, but there is not enough room on the pages of threads because people are talking about music at triathlon races and the parallels and causes of cramping in hot weather?

Please. He can't even come up with with his own material.

"These two marines are on trial for their lives. Please don't tell me their lawyer has pinned their hopes to a phone bill."

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Another hockey one for you:



John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

It's okay if I laughed at this because he survived right?

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"That doesn't make any sense at all, you can be second, third, fourth... hell you can even be fifth." - Reese Bobby, Taladega nights

so you can't handle the truth?

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"I would definitely smell her seat after a century ride"