It's the best tri toy I have bought. If I swim only on the vasa without going to the pool, my times in races are generally the same as if I go to the pool a lot (around 25-27 minutes for 1500). If I combine vasa with somewhat consistent pool swims, I have my fastest times (around 25 minutes for 1500). I have had my vasa ergometer for about 9 years, so in different years I have had different motivation levels. It is easier cardiovascularly than swimming in the pool, but harder muscularly - feels a lot like swimming with a wetsuit. My vasa workout are generally much shorter than pool swims - I very rarely do more than 20 minutes on the vasa.

+1. You got to like indoor training. If you do its a game changer for improving your swim especially if your time crunched.

I love indoor training. Right now I'm doing all indoor bike training (6 hrs per week), and half my runs on the treadmill.

Any caveats with buying the Vasa? Or any regrets? Sounds like it's almost too good to be true for someone like me who finds it hard to get pool access - either the pool hours don't match mine, and the limited times I can actually get there, it's almost invariably circle swimming with some beginner swimmers who have no idea how to properly share a lane which ends up ruining half my workout.

I just got my info packet in the mail about the Vasa Trainer. I plan on ordering one in January. I'll be getting the Ergometer version. The Vasa trainer is the only thing missing in my exercise room (have weights, trainer, treadmill) It would be great to be able to do some brick workouts all indoors.

Its the treadmill / trainer for the swim. But It does not completely replace the theatre of the real. Use it to compliment / supplement time in the water.

I use it 2x per week doing anywhere btw 2-3k on it. Shorter intervals focusing on strngth and power saving my endurance work for the pool.

Good luck!

I want to get a VASA so bad, I'm stuck 60 miles from a pool most of the year. It sucks, my swim fitness (best sport) is dying and the weather sucks, I could have skated to the pool today.. :( Wish I had a grand to spend on the cheap one.

Does yours have the ergometer? If not, is it able to be added to your model?

I would echo what Jon says -

I LOVE my vasa ergometer. Easier aerobically/harder muscularly.

Translates very well to wetsuit swims

Still need some pool time too

My fastest swim splits were vasa 2 x week and pool 1-2 x week.

It is a great piece of training equipment.

Curious what you find not appealing about it - I know you now have a masters group to attend, but is not the convenience worth it? Or is it too mind-numbingly boring?

(As a off-topic aside, you mentioned 100hrs if that on the Vasa, but 5x that on the trainer. I looked at my Friel Annual training plan, and it's for 500 hours TOTAL for the year - works out to 10hrs/week with peaks at 15hrs, so you're putting in a good amt of hours on both!)

I use the VASA swim erg on 7, the highest setting, 3x/wk after swims in Endless Pool. Total about 2 hours/week on VASA. (Never go to a public lap pool and rarely do open water swims.) For me, it replaces upper-body training with weights.

I have one - not had it for very long so I can't comment on the results, but I can tell you that's it's very time efficient. I can swim hard for 1.5 hours in a pool but after 20 mins on the vasa I'm toasted (in my opinion the distance swum on the vasa feels about double that of the pool). It's basically like a very specific weights/resistance workout for swimming. It's awesome to not have to leave the house if I want to get in a quick "swim". Literally in 20 mins I can work so hard that I'm unable to brush my teeth after

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Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |

What workouts do you do? I just picked up a used Vasa trainer.

That's sounds exactly what I'm looking for - my arm strength in the pool is terrible! (I go slower with paddles by a fair amount.)

Length of machine is allegedly 10 feet per the website. Do you need more room than that since your legs stick off the back? Trying to figure out the space for it.

Nice job at kona BTW!

Hi runner 66 have a question for you since you have used one. How does the Vasa account for body rotation in the stroke? It seems to me one would be ingraining a totally flat body by practicing the catch/pull on a level body surface? That or one is forced to internally rotate the humerus to accommodate the lack of rotation? I guess my question is: do you swim with some amount of body rotation in the water and if so, how did you adapt to the Vasa in that event given that you are laying on a flat surface? Curious to know how/if you were able to rectify this if it was an issue. Were you able to get from the Vasa to water and have the stroke feel the same? I'm sure there is a trick to it, but I would feel lost trying to swim flat as weight shift provides a good deal of my propulsive power when timed with the recovering arm accelerating down into the catch.

Yes you'd need a few extra feet, for your feet... I'd day 13ft total is plenty. You could probably even get away with a bit less than that

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Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |

I'll toss myself into the conversation - I've been a Vasa user since around 2007. Thing is freaking awesome. But, it does come with a few things to know, kind of related to what you're talking about above. It doesn't account for body rotation; I do tend to roll SLIGHTLY on the board, but it's not close to the water. I think the thing to remember with the Vasa Erg is that it's not a machine to perfectly replicate your stroke, but a machine designed to perfect the catch/pull arm movement - essentially, it's a "pulling machine". When I use it, I'm only focusing on the catch and early vertical forearm portion of the stroke, as well as full effort through the stroke. I don't even do a proper recovery portion of the stroke, because THAT is very uncomfortable on a flat surface - I just swing my arms forward under the machine.

That being said, I think you'd find you don't miss much of the rest of your stroke - despite not having a good way to replicate the roll, kick, etc., I found I didn't lose any of it going into the water. When I got my Erg, it was when I was just out of college, fairly broke and living in Boston - I couldn't afford a membership to any of the pools there. I got the erg via some barter with my coach, and for a year and a half only used only the Erg for training (with a few open water swims at Walden Pond on the weekends). While I wasn't a good swimmer before, and I'm not now, I actually improved a lot over that 1.5 years - went from a 38 min half IM swim to a 30 min, which isn't bad for a year's work.

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Your speed matters a lot, sometimes you need to be very fast, where sometimes you need to breakdown your speed.

I think between your review and Rob's usage as a KQ guy, I'm definitely going to buy one. I'm willing to work hard, even if it means doing it in my garage (I do hours and hours of that already no problem on a bike trainer setup with Trainerroad) - it's that darn pool access that's killing my swim. If I could get even half the results you got with a Vasa, I'd consider it well worth it.

Just curious - how would you or other say it compares to swimming with paddles?

My VASA erg is 8'6" long. I have it tucked in a 9'0" space. No problem fully extending my legs... I am 5'10".
Did I say it doubles as a pulley weight-machine?

Actually, you are losing a huge part of your stroke since you aren't able to recover properly. I've only used the Vasa once for a few minutes but, the idea that swinging your arms forward under the machine is not an issue is not valid. This is the same problem you have with using stretch cords (e.g., surgical tubing), in that to keep a continuous motion you can't recover properly over your shoulder. I've used the stretch cords with paddles religiously when deployed to AFG and IRQ and could not swim at all, and what I found when I came back was that sure, my pulling strength was great but my deltoids just ached big-time after 2000-3000 yds because they were just not used to that motion. Every time I've come back from my 5 deployments w/o swimming, it has been getting the delts back in shape that has been the main issue, and it seems like you would be missing this crucial part of the swim stroke with the Vasa trainer.

Also, what tigerpaws said about rotation is key also, since no way do you pull in a completely flat motion in the water, so really you are not training exactly the same motion. Close but not exactly the same; really, there is no real substitute for swimming in the water but I would spend $30 to buy the stretch cords with paddles before I'd spend $500 or more on the Vasa. (I have no financial interest in the stretch cords.)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

The VASA swim erg does simulate a normal feeling arm recovery over the shoulder. You must be thinking of some other swim trainer that requires dog paddling.

That's great it worked for you....hard to argue with the results. I jumped on one about 3 years ago at an expo briefly and it struck me immediately how it disrupted any and all feel in *my* stroke. Most notably b/c whatever kind of recovery I could manage on the Vasa was incredibly restricted due to my flatness on the trainer(thus my comment on forced internal rotation beyond my normal range). When I want to go faster I don't think about pulling harder or faster, but rather increasing the rate of my rotations. Was curious how others made it work for them, thanks for explaining....enjoy your swimming!

I used one this year because I live about an hour from the nearest pool. I got a great deal on the erg model, but haven't really used the power function. I can tell my improvement because my stroke rate increasing on the different tension settings so I never bothered to figure out the power readings etc.

It was great for me. I used it 2-3 times a week and made it to the pool 1x a week and tried to do an open water swim 1x a week training for an IM. After about 8 weeks of using it I could tell a difference in my swimming. I wasn't able to swim in open water as much as I wanted to and the 1x a week in the pool w/ the vasa got me back to great swimming shape. the last month or so of IM training I made it to a pool 2-3 times because I wanted to feel comfortable in the water (I've had a few panic attacks during swim portion of races).

I was responding to the specific statement by IKnowEverything that he/she did not recover his/her arms but rather just moved them back and forth.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

The weirdness of the feeling of pulling on the Vasa is the primary memory I can recall from my 5 min on a Vasa at a university I trained for 2 days about 4 yrs ago. I think the more real, in-the-water, swimming a person has done, the harder it is to see the Vasa or other tools such as the stretch cords as anything but a supplement to your regular swim workouts. Top swimmers will swim around 16-20 hr/wk and do dryland training maybe 4 hr/wk, so at most a 4:1 ratio between dryland and in-water training. Obv the Vasa trainer, stretch cords, free weights, etc, are better than nothing if you have very limited access, or no access, to a pool.

Also, when you say "rate of rotations" you mean turnover rate, e.g. strokes/min, right???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Actually no I mean quite a different thing. My core is the motor, not spinning my arms faster. So yes in a way, depends on how you view it. When I want to go faster I think about rotating my core through it's rotational cycle faster, this in turn will result in a faster stroke rate. As opposed to telling myself 'just stroke faster'. It was a very difficult thing for me to overcome with over 20 years of thinking about spinning my arms faster and it used to be so exhausting. It took me a solid year to figure it out completely, but when I figured out how to use my core as my motor swimming became a lot of fun, faster, mo funner. I never 'got it' until I had a coach though...it was mystical unicorns stuff until someone dumbed it down for me with eyes on deck.

It's a total shift in thinking or it was for me at least. It all starts with the kick, kick creates torque which is transmitted to and through the core, the shoulders and upper arms are the transmission and the forearm/hand is where the rubber meets the road. Creating contra-lateral torque across the body timed with the kick. Hope that makes sense I'm terrible at describing things like this.

Descriptions are hard but it sounds like you're describing what Gary Hall Sr calls "hip-driven freestyle"??? Which is a bit diff from "shoulder-driven freestyle". I'm more of a shoulder-driven guy myself, due to lack of a strong kick:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I love my Vasa Ergometer; I started using it last January and have seen my triathlon swim times improve through the season. I kept a training log through last winter: http://www.cortthesport.com/p/vasa-training.html That includes links to a series I wrote about "When the Pool is Not an Option". I just don't have time to get to the pool 4 or 5 times a week so for me it's invaluable and extremely time efficient. There are far more impediments to me getting to the pool than outside on the bike or road to run.

As for questions of rotation, my core still engages, and my opposing hip drives into the bench. It's not a problem. In fact, I really didn't understand the importance of the core, and the connection of the pull to the hip, until I started using the Erg and getting that kinesthetic feedback from the bench. The Erg also helped me to develop a better feel for the water. With the resistance of the Vasa power paddles, I was able to figure out that resistance I need to seek in the water. It's not about just sliding your forearm for through the water!

There are many times I am in the pool and thinking of the sensations I get on the Erg and translating those back to the pool.

It's a great training tool - effective, efficient, well made, and smoothly operating!

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Cort the Sport | http://www.CortTheSport.com

For those that are interested the Vasa Ergometer is VERY close to being released with ANT+ capability.

I've been in touch with them over the last few months and received an email yesterday that stated the following. "We are very close to launching the new Wireless Power Meter, but don't have all the marketing, documentation, etc. finalized."

Just a heads up for those who are curious.....

I've had mine since 2008 and its main drawback is that it is worse than a treadmill for boredom, if that is possible. I used to read books or watch movies to keep from losing my mind, but eventually I just snapped from a max of about 50000 meters a months now I dread starting up swimming each year. I bought it because there were no reliable pools and I could not get away anyway with a 2-year old at home so I was able to race off and on without ever going to a pool. In my second year of using it, I had my best non-wetsuit swim ever after like three actual water swims in the pool. I suspect it would have been even better with the wetsuit.
It's a great tool because if you are not using it, it just sits there, unlike maintaining an endless pool or paying for a membership. My experience with it leads me to believe that it is really a fitness tool. If you can't get to the pool and your swim is suffering then it will help. If your form is good from years of swimming, you can likely be a FOP swimmer without ever going to pool. I'm a bad swimmer so my best swim was a 27 min non-wetsuit 1500 after never going to the pool all year.
Chad

What kind of work-outs are people doing on them?

Mine is not a VASA, I built my own using a bench and the arm unit from a Nordic track.
I typically try to get 10 to 15 minutes on it on the days that I don't swim. Wondering what else I can do with it.

Thx for the reply, appreciated!

I do a lot of indoor bike (and run) training already, and am ready to combat boredom during longer yardage endurance sessions with a combo of podcasts and/or movies set to the breathing side of the Vasa.

I just ordered one. I'm really hoping to use it to nearly double my swim 'volume' by adding on top of my current measly 8k/wk pool yardage. I don't swim enough not because of lack of desire, but as most folks, it's due to the painful logistics of pool access which makes it nearly impossible.

I'll be swimming today for 40 minutes (in water) during my lunch break at the local YMCA - sharing the 'FAST' lane (yes, it's clearly marked) with 2 other swimmers who swim slower than 2:00/100 (I'll be at 1:30-5/100) and are nearly clueless when it comes to yielding at the wall to a faster swimmer. Yeah, it's going to be a quality workout, not.

That VASA can't get here soon enough for me!

In terms of workouts, mine are every bit as diverse as what I do in the pool, and more. What's nice is having that feedback on stroke rate, power (Left and Right balance), lap splits, etc.

What do I do: long swims, intervals, build sets, time trials, power pulls, drills, one-arm swimming, "fartleks". I did a pilot training program on the Erg with Coach Eric Neilsen and a week's worth of workouts took two pages. I enjoy that level of detail. It's never boring, and always a challenge. No, I'm not watching Netflix while I'm doing it, but I'm mopping up the floor when I'm done and confident that I got the most out of my time on it!

Cortney

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Cort the Sport | http://www.CortTheSport.com

Thought I would chime in here. The VASA Erg is definitely the best swim-specific strength/fitness workout you can get without water. I have been a big fan for years...starting with the VASA swim bench. I am also currently working with VASA to try to make the ERG even better. We have added four features to the current ERG model: 1) head rest to insure proper body position 2) rotating bench to help teach the proper motion while swimming 3) hand/wrist pads on posts to help teach/strengthen high elbow (EVF) pulling motion with additional resistance available and 4) leg shock cords to work the kick motions along with the upper body.

You can see a youtube video of this prototype and we are building these on a custom order basis through The Race Club.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE0QpSeKYrQ


Gary Sr.

Ok, I SERIOUSLY hope they are paying you commission for making that post. Biased or unbiased, I don't think anyone on the planet is going to argue about the validity of swim training with Vasa if it's coming from Gary Sr!

(This post is permanently bookmarked in my triathlon links now.)

Also, you better not be coming out with that new model in the next year. I'll be pissed if I just spent $2k for a swim erg that's going to be obsolete in <1yr! =+)

Wow Gary thanks for chiming in, long time follower of the Hall clan. Grew up just north of Bloomington near the Morgan Monroe State Forest and have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours at the IUOP as a little tyke.

This project you are undertaking is huge and if you can get the rotating bench aspect of the Vasa worked out I'd be inclined to buy one simply b/c I'm a cold weather wimp. Yea I live in Florida, but with no heaters during the winter it still gets cold darnit! Is there any kind of email update or something you might be putting up on TRC with new mods/tweaks as the Vasa progresses? I have always felt the Vasa could be fantastic for me during the winter months, but could never get past the board flat posture enough to where I felt I'd want to spend that much money on one.

I'm no longer into multi-sport and have gone back to the pool full time so the fly application was especially of interest. Very few coaches teach kicking up and down with fly, just two down kicks. My coach brought this to my attention about 2 years ago and it's been huge for my fly. I can clearly see the Vasa demands some sort of upkick with the fly application and this could be a great adjunct to my dryland classes. Exciting!

Go IU! Looks to be a bit of a rough season for bball with the new youngsters, but I know Tom will get them together.

As a coach, it is great for teaching some of the basics to the beginner and reinforcing things with the more experienced swimmer. Athletes who have early season races, but live in cold climates can benefit greatly as it allows you to simulate open water training conditions aka... no walls to push off of.
The power meter allows the swimmer to do some functional threshold testing to determine proper training paces. It is a great time saver for those that live far from a pool, don't have a pool to train in at all or just trying to fit in your training around all the other things life has to offer. Plus, if you can not get in the water due to injury, you can maintain a high level of fitness by doing some modified pool sets on the Vasa Erg.

Thanks for the reply coacheric and Gary Sr.

Quick question for coacheric (or Gary if still around) - do you find that beginner swimmers almost invariably have wimpy arm power on the powermeter? Or do you frequently see 2:00+/100yd pool swimmers who can somehow crank out much faster 'virtual paces' on the Vasa? (Like the Vasa reading 1:35/100yds for that same 2:00+/100 swimmer, or that slow swimmer throwing up watts in the range of a competitive fast swimmer.)

Just asking as it seems logical that if you're a slower swimmer, but your Vasa power is matching up near your slow pace, it would suggest that a significant limiter to your ability to swim fast is not necessarily technique, but just as importantly, the inability to even generate enough power to go that fast, even if you had perfect technique. (My arm power really sucks for sure - paddles are rough for me.)

Yes, very common for the beginner swimmer to lack the ability to generate swim specific power. One of the benefits to training on the Erg is the swimmer can learn what it is like to feel power in the pull phase of the stroke. Combine that with learning to accelerate hand speed through the pull and swim times will start coming down for sure.

Can anyone comment on using the Halo Swim Trainer as a less expensive alternative to the Vasa trainer?

I currently own a bench that I can add the Halo conversion kit to for $125 as opposed to $1600 for the Vasa ERG.

http://lanegainer.com/...HALO-swim-bench.html

Thanks......

Saw this thread and wanted to add my thoughts. I've had an erg for about two years now and the simple fact is IT WORKS. It is an amazingly effective training resource. I'm not a big numbers guy so I don't have the empirical data. But we all know swimming is a sport that when you're improving and swimming well, you feel it. You feel better moving through the water, you feel the efficiency of your stroke and you make your intervals faster.

This is exactly how I felt after just a couple of weeks mixing in the erg to my pool workouts. And it's not just a "time saving device." I truly feel better using the erg than if I just put in pool volume. I know because I've gone through spurts of just doing pool work. During these spurts I feel slower and weaker. As soon as I get back on the erg a few times I feel power and stamina coming back. Of course, it is very important to pay attention to form on the erg (they have some great video on their site).

Ever had your local pool go out of service? You know that anxiety-filled calculation you make as to how many swim workouts you're going to miss? Well, that's happened a few times this year. Knowing I've had the erg is like mental Valium. There were three, two week stretches in which my pool was being worked on. I did three erg workouts per week during this down time. When I got back in the water, I felt like I had lost nothing (my flip turn was off a bit).

Anyway, love Vasa's erg!

OP here.
My local YMCA pools just closed for 2+ weeks. Last year, the Y closest to my workplace where I do 90% of my swimming was closed for unexplained reasons for 3 MONTHS and a lost nearly all of my swim ability and took another 2 months to even get back to near where I was before it closed.

Anyway, appreciate the post - my Vasa is scheduled to arrive this Friday via FedEx and it can't get here soon enough. I've just been so maddeningly frustrated with pool access here between the circle swim folks who have no clue what they're doing (I have to circle swim almost every time I go with 2+min/100 swimmers) and limited access hours, not to include the inevitable winter shutdowns.

Good luck! I know you'll love it.

FWIW my "pace" on the vasa is a lot slower than in the pool. eg it's pretty tough for me to hit 1:35/100m on the vasa, about the same effort that I use to hit 1:25/100m in the pool. I have no idea what that means, either I am weak on the vasa or streamlined in the water! I'd be interested if you have the same experience once yours arrives.

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Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |

I'll be certain to report back. Thx again for chiming in here. Between you (you've kicked my behind several times in Norcal races in the past few years, not that I'm even ever in visual range ha!), Gary Sr, and the others, I'm really encouraged that this may be at least a decent partial solution to my lack of pool time and access.

I'm close to pulling the trigger on a Vasa ERG and am curious which sized bench is best? I'm 5'10" and know that they offer a standard (35") as well as XL (45"). I was told the longer bench is recommended for longer workouts am curious if anyone can attest to this.

Thanks!

My pace per 100 m on the VASA is also a LOT slower than in the water for the same effort, probably 10-15 s/100 when working hard, and more like 20 s/100 when going easy. Oh, and I have found that the VASA does not penalize for swimming with a dropped elbow. In fact it is possible to have a much faster pace on the VASA by swimming with almost straight arms - swimming this way in the water increases drag and requires higher effort for the same speed.

 I'm 6ft with the normal bench

Scott - These are very interesting observations, and clearly you must have spent a lot of time on the Vasa trainer. Your comments are why you don't hear top swimmers saying that they won their gold due to all the time they spent on the Vasa, or in the weight room for that matter. To be a better, faster swimmer, you have to swim harder, longer, etc. The Vasa may be an aid to swimming faster, but still the majority of your swim training time should be in the pool:)

JOOC, if you do the Vasa with almost straight arms, or with some other "cheating", can you go faster on the trainer than in the pool???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Hi, well after several months of thinking about it I pulled the trigger last week. First thing was the speed at which Vasa got the Erg out the door and to me. I'm in the UK and ordered on-line on the Monday and had it set up in my home gym on Thursday!

So Im not the strongest swimmer (30 min 1500) so bought it to really work on technique and strength. My first attempt lasted all of 4 minutes and I was blown! Following the video and instructions for the early catch and high elbow really showed my lack of technique. I tend to swim with a straight arm pull so getting used to a high elbow will take some time. What is interesting is the difference in watts that different strokes produce and the high elbow being the most powerful.

Early days for me so I'm building by a few minutes a couple of times a day and I couldn't do that if I was only going to the pool. There is no way I could slow down my stoke where I can ingrain new technique so easily in the pool. I agree with others its no substitute and true you don't get the roll you get in the pool. As for the recovery stroke I agree you don't get a true like for like but I have found that you can get close. I have done a few timed sessions in the pool and so will see what the effect of a month or two on the Vasa makes. My shoulders tell me that something is happening!!

Good luck

I'm still awaiting mine (dang - should arrive imminently!) but this is the reality for my pool training:

I realistically need 5 days per week of swimming at least a minimum of 45 min per session to improve. preferably 1hr each session average. I think that's probably not atypical. It's not much swimming at all in terms of volume.

However, also reality for me that total driving and prep time for a round trip to the pool is 45 minutes for the pool with 3 measly lanes with inevitable crappy circle swim with beginners, or 60 minutes total round trip for the better pool that still has at least a 50% chance of a crappy circle swim.

So if I want to get a decent 5 days of working out, that's 4-5 HOURS of travel/prep time total just for swimming. Add on the 4-5 hours of swimming pool time and that's 8-10 hours of total time. I train 12-15hrs per week, which I feel is a pretty respectable amount, so the swimming alone would consume nearly 75% of my training time, and I'm not even counting logistics, which are nearly impossible as the times available for lap swim are limited at the 3 different YMCAs I can go to. And the saddest part, is that that would be for SMALL improvement - I know from experience that I should be spending 9-10 hrs of SWIM time and not travel time, to get significant (not even that much, talking 5-10sec/100 over 1000) improvement. I know this is the same lame-sounding argument that Endurance Nation has put up that gets inevitable flamewars here, but as much as I've tried to deny it for the past 3 years, it's absolutely true for me as a multisport athlete. I've spent the past 3 years trying to 'disprove' it for myself by swimming harder/shorter in the pool, going at lunch to minimize out-of-work hours, trying literally every single lap swim hour to find the one with least people, but my conclusion - there is NO substitute for training volume at my low level of swimming. It's been true for me on the run/bike and I'm fooling myself to think it's different on the swim. We'll see if this Vasa experiment works or not, but I'm betting it will, just because I anticipate at least a 50% volume increase in total swim training time with it, and a 100% increase on swim-heavier weeks.

I honestly don't know how you swim buffs find the time to run and bike while putting up 5-7 days of serious poolwork per week without training for 20 hours per week. Either that or you guys have amazingly good pool access with ample lap lanes where you never need to circle with other swimmers and great hours that happen to match up with yours.

You are going to love the VASA Erg. If I take a significant amount of time off from using the Erg, I become slower in the pool. A few weeks of training 3-4 times a week for 20-30 minutes per session on the Erg while focusing on strength (I do most of my Erg with a high damper setting) is enough to bring my swim times back to my norm.

I've always been able to live within a 15 min drive of the pool and I actually like circle swimming regardless of the other swimmers' speeds, just sprint to pass them:) Also, I tend to do most of my training in one big workout, e.g. start swimming after work at 5 pm, then ride spin bike, then run, then stretch and shower and go home around 9:30 pm. On weekends, same except start around 10 am, e.g. allowing some extra sleep. It helps that I'm single with no dependents except my dogs:)

In any case, I applaud your decision to use the Vasa as a supplement and I sincerely hope that it helps you improve your swimming. Be sure to report back on your experience with it!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Thx for the input & encouragement, ericmulk. Will report back.

I wish I could do those mega compacted training days again. Alas, wife & kids do really put a cramp on the training lifestyle =)

Getting the swim after work is a good timesaver. Alas, that's when all the swim lessons and kids swim teams practice round here. I even tried combining the swim with the to-work AM swim, but the circle swim is really bad then. I still do it now, but it's killing my improvement as I'm constantly waiting up for people who don't yield at the wall. (I'm a real nice guy in the pool, but I just wanna strangle those rookie breast-strokers who somehow thinks its a good idea to jump into a 5-person in 25yd lap circle swim when they're going 2:30/100....argh.)

I also wish you could get on one and report how much wattage you could put up. I saw on the 'stretchcordz' thread that you had no problems with the heaviest cord. While I haven't used that particular brand, I have other similar bands, and I know that I'd probably only be able to barely do 5 reps of any heavy stretch cord in that swim motion -it's friggin' hard! (Ironically, I'm pretty strong at the normal weight training motions including lat pulldowns from my days lifting a lot of weights.)

Runner 66,
Sent u a pm in the 24 hrs. You have an buyer in me for your vasa

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age is just a number after your name

I bought a Vasa in the late 90's, then moved to the Erg around 2005. My decision was based on the same issues you discuss; actual training time versus the total time spent getting to/from the pool, not to mention issues with pool hours/closures.

I have found that I always swim faster after using the Vasa, compared to training in the pool. That was true using the original Vasa and the pulley attachment, and it has also been true using the Erg.

I now only swim when I race. I prefer to get in 3-5 pool swims in the 1-2 weeks prior to a race, just to "get the feel for the water", but it is optional.

If I had unlimited time, I would prefer to swim in open water. Given the time constraints, my measured results show I swim faster in the water when training on the Vasa, as opposed to (less actual workout time) training in the pool.

I think too many people here get hung up on "its is not actually swimming in water" to realize that more volume, on something that is a close simulation to swimming in water, can actually be more beneficial than actual in water swimming.

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2015 USAT Long Course National Champion (M50-54)

Since you've got the weight training background, your swimming may come along very fast if you can just get the proper feel for it. Several people on this thread swear by the Vasa so hopefully you'll have the same results with it. I wish I had access to a Vasa now myself as this thread has gotten my curiosity up. I'm sure at some point in the future I'll swim at a pool when I'm out of town that has a Vasa.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

OP here - I got my erg and finally set it up!

First impressions from only 20 minutes of VERY discontinuous use:

1. Wow it's hard. Like others posted above, I couldn't even go 4 minutes on nearly the lowest damper setting before my arms tired out. However, I will add that I suspect a big reason why it's so weirdly hard at first is likely because of the lack of water holding up your arms in the reach position. In the water, you barely have to use any muscles to hold your arms straight out in the water. However, on the Vasa, you are literally holding your extended arm unsupported in the air during tge extend phase of the stroke throughout the entire workout. So that part will take getting use to compared to the pull motion, which for me, was much more fatigue resistant. I think it's going to take me at least 2-3 weeks to get my delts strong enough so I can go full strength on the pulls without them fatiguing first.

2. I now know that a big reason why I suck so badly at swimming is that I'm just weak, weak, weak. My pace on the Vasa erg on that 4-minute interval was 2:10/100m per the Vasa and a measly 30-37 watts (!!). I was going so slowly that I could barely even get the sliding bench to slide forward off the back.

3. At least for now, my sprint (<45 sec hard) pace on the Vasa is pretty similar to my pool pace, if nearly identical. (I can get it down to around 1:20/100m but my form starts falling apart quick and then I die.) Right now, my endurance paces are much, much slower, but I think a lot of that is due to the deltoid issue I described in #1, and suspect it'll get a lot closer in the upcoming 2 weeks once that's acclimated.

4. Not much rotation right now on the bench. Not sure how it'll affect swimming in water, but I'm going to trust in Gary Hall and the others above that I'll maintain rotation in the water. On the bright side, it really does emphasize EVF. I have a mirror to check against the video demos to make sure I'm doing it right. The cables for the paddles are attached high, and if you don't keep the EVF, you'll see the cable really dip low. You could still cheat for sure, but it's pretty easy to eyeball the cable path (straight) and feel the straight paddle pull to check you're doing it mostly right.

5. It was pretty easy to setup, took about 20 minutes but mainly because I was careful. It also takes up about 9 feet of space so it's not compact, but it does roll extremely easily and isn't too heavy so you can very realsitically move it around a room - I stash mine in the side of the garage when not in use and roll it out to the middle when I use it. I still really believe Vasa could make a huge improvement here by somehow making the long middle gliderail collapsible and thus make the storage miniscule since the bench and head unit are pretty light and not that large, but for now, it's pretty good. (I could realistically envision a next-gen Vasa that could break down into pieces in <1minute and be stored in 3 feet of space just by having a collapsible gliderail.)


Again, this is definitely a premature impression, after only 1 measly 20 min workout - I'll post back after I make some progress in the upcoming weeks, but it'll probably take awhile, as right now 15 minutes on the thing pretty much wipes out my shoulders. I like it a lot already, but will reserve judgment until more use.

Well, I'm glad you've gotten it finally, and it will be interesting to hear an update in 3-4 wks on its impact on your swimming.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Curious, did you look into getting a halo for it too?

I haven't, although it probably would be a helpful addition since I'm not a FOP swimmer.

I am the same height as you and I feel the Standard one works great!

To Piggy back on this discussion, does anyone have any inroads or contacts with Crossfit Endurance (i.e. Brian mackenzie)? I simply do not have the time to put in the super long hours and the constant banging is really beating down on me. That said, i've adopted the CFE model with my crossfit coaches and I actually tested out my swim times using the CFE methodds on my VASA trainer last year when I lived in Vermont (where I met and got to know VASA and their CEO Rob Sleamaker). i really want to drop my times more after getting my ergometer, and I wanted to talk with someone who has used the erg either in lieu of expanded pool time or with the same interval focus. Let me know!

1-week reflection on my new Vasa:

- The time savings with this thing is incredible. I put in 5 hrs of Vasa training so far this week and I feel like I'm slacking hourwise this week (despite being at 14hrs thus far of SBR.)

Typically, I'd spend 5hrs of driving/prep to get in 5 hrs of swimming in a week. With the Vasa, I suddenly have ALL that time available for training. It's shocking to really get all those extra hours - it's literally like God saying "here you go, 5 extra hours per week to train, enjoy." That's how it feels to me - I don't even know what to do with all that time right now since all those driving hours are gone if I use the Vasa.

The only drawback with this time-savings is that my brain is already trying to find any/all ways to avoid going to the pool (and I actually ENJOY swimming in pools a lot!) just because it's constantly doing the math of whether 1 hr in a pool would be as high yield as 2hrs of Vasa or 1hr Vasa + 1hr run/bike.


- The VASA is really, really great for EVF training. I wish all beginners/intermediate swimmers could try this thing for a full session just to feel it.

I can barely go 4 minutes even on low-moderate intensity while holding good EVF form before my shoulders/arms burn out from fatigue. I don't think this is because the vasa is artificially harder than water - I'm pretty sure it's because I'm just so weak at a good EVF motion, and I have to just work at it. The Vasa allows you to really isolate that EVF motion and refine it, as well as get objective numbers on how strong (weak in my case) you are at it. Very eye opening for me.

- Already feeling stronger in the pool as a result of the Vasa, although it is somewhat tricky to tell this early as my arms are so rocked from the Vasa training and accentuated EVF. For sure though, the Vasa feels to me almost identical to swimming with paddles in water.


Will update further in the next few weeks, but so far, it's been really great - a lot better than I expected.

did you get it with or without power?
and i wonder how much that matters?
did you ask if there was truth to the ANT+ rumor?

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Fruit snacks are for winners

I got the powermeter one.

Right now, I'm not even strong enough to use the power function meaningfully as I can't even go 1000 yards straight on the thing without dying. (I go about 1:35/100pace in the pool though.)

This early though, I think the computer is essential - even though I'm not going by power, I do use the pace/100m which it gives you per stroke. You can really see how your pace starts high, and then starts to fade as time goes on, even when you feel like you're cranking with all you've got (fatigue). Also good to keep yourself from slacking. I def wouldn't enjoy it anywhere as much without the objective feedback - I think it's crucial for this machine.

The ANT+ rumor sounds true but right now I don't have an application for it, so not really important to me.

Glad your VASA is working out so well for you. Prob do need to swim with water at least once per week though, just to keep your feel for the "real thing":)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Just curious how the Vasa users log their workout time. Do you categorize time on the Vasa trainer as swim time or strength time when logging your workouts?

I'm sure opinions vary and I've never used the VASA, but I have done a lot of stretch cord work when deployed on USAF duty in AFG and IRQ, with no pool access. I've always counted the stretch cord work as swimming in my personal log book, just estimating the number of yards I'd have swum if I were actually in the pool based on time and level of effort. I would also do push-ups, sit-ups, pull-ups, free weights, etc, which I counted as strength work.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

4-wk update on the Vasa:

- Am swimming my historical fastest times (for a dead MOP adult-onset tri swimmer which isn't even remotely fast.) I haven't improved on my swim times yet, but I've only begun doing 'real' workouts on the Vasa due to a 2-3 week acclimation phase.

- I think it's totally legit. The pull feels identical to swimming with paddles to me, and uses the exact same muscles used in the pool stroke and encourages a correct high EVF.

- My paddle pull times have significantly improved, even more than my nonpaddle times. Prevasa, I was 7sec/100 slower with paddles in water, where post-vasa, I'm now 1-2sec/100 faster with small paddles. We'll see how this translates to water in the future.

- My rt shoulder always has had persistent pain issues with the recovery, to the point I switched breathing left to avoid it, despite being 7sec/100 slower on that side. The Vasa is nice in that it hasn't aggravated my rt shoulder since the recovery can be low.

- My 'pool access' stress levels went from high to zero. I used to stress all winter as to how much swim fitness I'd lose - that's no longer an issue at all. Have still been doing 1-2 lunch swims/wk to maintain water feel, which does help connect the power to the water. This has been the greatest benefit of owning a Vasa. Takes the most difficult logistical aspect of triathlon and turns it into a nonissue. Takes the limiter of my swim training from limited access, to training volume+intensity. Love it.

- The Vasa is still no magic bullet. Swimming faster is HARD work, and requires painful sets, whether you're in or out of the water. I was hoping to hit 15k of Vasa meters per week, but it's pretty hard for me to even get 12k, with good B/R volume. I'm going to need a swim-focus block in the future to really amp up swim volume.

- I still really enjoy going to the pool. In fact, I miss it if I'm not there at least once per week. I train entirely solo on run+bike, so the pool is really the only place I workout with other athletes, and even if they're lowly YMCA nonracing swimmers, it's nice to have someone else around when you're suffering through sets. Having the Vasa helps with this though - I no longer have the pressure to do a super high quality interval workout every time I hit the pool since I can hammer on the Vasa, so I'm enjoying the pool time more.

I am a new Vasa owner and am curious what you mean by "real" workouts? Would you mind sharing an example of one? Thanks!

I only mean 'real' in that I'm able to actually work hard, as opposed to just barely surviving doing laps on the thing.

Here are two really good workout links, Al Lymans' workouts are pretty good, esp if you make them longer/harder.
http://vasatrainer.com/...ticle_Lyman_full.pdf
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...rum.cgi?post=2659074

Runner 66,
are you still wishing to sell your ergo? perhaps you can PM me

 Now that you mentioned it, it's entirely possible that the Vasa is improving my regular and paddle strokes similarly, its just that my paddle PR times are soft targets not measured during my true PR period which was about 6 months ago (when I didn't use paddles - I just started the paddle work about 2 months prior to the Vasa.) So I guess I should refine my prior statement in that light. Although it is true that I'm now a hair faster with paddles in the water that nonpaddles, which is a weird flipflop in speed for me since paddles normally slow me down. (I use the small ones.)

Well, ya, you should be faster with the pads; I'm about 6 sec/100yd faster but mine are fairly big, the yellow "Strokemaker" model, which is their 2nd biggest. Do you use the pull buoy with your pads??? That's the most common combo for pad use, although lots use the PB by itself, sans pads. I don't usually see just paddles w/o PB, though I'm sure some do that too. You just have to watch shoulder injuries which are more likely with heavy pad use.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I've been both with and without pull buoy. Doesn't seem to make any difference for me - I kick less than my already wimpy minimal kick when pulling though.

Interestingly, the Vasa on high resistance doesn't seem to aggravate my shoulder at all, even when pulling all-out hard. It's the high elbow recovery that really does a number on my right shoulder, to the point it's the limiter in my workouts if I swim all-breath right. With the Vasa since the elbow recovery is low (it's like freestyle in reverse no lifting of elbow if you want), I haven't had any problems with my rt shoulder even though I'm going all-out on the pull. I worried about straining my shoulder due to the paddle warnings, but it doesn't seem to be playing out that way for me.

I know it sounds weird, but I truly was slower with those small paddles prior to the Vasa, like 6sec/100 slower. My stroke rate immediately dropped and I couldn't pull hard enough to make up for it. Just proves further how lousy my muscular endurance was, even at 1:35/100yd pace for distance. I'm hoping I've got some low-hanging fruit to pick off for swim time in the near future.

Sounds like you're on your way!!! Regarding your shoulder hurting, is it your deltoid??? Both of my "delts" are always the muscles that take the longest to re-adapt to swimming after any long period off. My only long periods off have been due to my 6 USAF deployments to AFG and IRQ. In 2 of the 6, I was gone for a full year with little or no swimming. When I came home on leave, I swam 12 out of the 16 days I was home. Would've swum every day but delts were just too sore!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Unfortunately, for me, the pain isn't the deltoid muscle - my rt shoulder pain is IN the joint, and not at all the muscle, and is a really nasty sharp pain. When it gets bad it's so bad that I can barely lift my arm over my head due to the stinging pain, but it's not the muscle itself. It's forced me to switch to breathing on my weak side since if I swim over 3000/session it gets worse and worse if I stay on my strong side. Most people immediately scream 'technique flaw!' when they hear this, but I've had good coaches look at it and they say my breath-right stroke is better than my left, with better pull & recovery so it's likely due less to a stroke flaw and more to a prior injury (?labral tear in there).

For me, I'd have to say that when I'm out of swim form and come back to it, EVERYTHING gets tired! Delts, lats, rotator cuff, trapezius. It's like my entire arms/back turn to mud. Again, that may be a function of my weak muscular endurance - I wouldn't be surprised that a strong swimmer like yourself would have much more resistance to fatigue in the swim-specific muscles, and thus have deltoid issues (less of a crucial power muscle in freestyle) when you come back since the lats/rotator cuff in you is stronger from your prior experience. Just a hunch.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that your pain is actually in the joint but hopefully if you keep working on the VASA and swimming, eventually it will go away. I think my deltoid pain after time off is mainly due to the fact that it's the one muscle that's hard to reproduce the strain of swimming on w/o actually swimming, e.g. as you've said, the recovery on your VASA is straight back rather than over your shoulder. The same is true when I use my stretch cords rather than actual swimming. I suppose I could do some sort of simulation with a 5-lb weight, i.e. lean over a bench and simulate the freestyle stroke for about an hour or so. If I deploy again, maybe I'll give that one a try, although it might be a tad boring:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Detailed 7 month update from this dedicated Vasa user for anybody interested:

- SUMMARY: Vasa is the real deal. In my experience, they're not overhyping it at all. It works, and works well. Not surprised at all now that it's used and owned by many top swim programs.

- I made real progress with the increased 'swim' volume - 2 mins dropped off my HIM time (and much less fatigue out of water), first time finishing in the upper third of my AG at Vineman 70.3. Was actually weird for me to get into T1 and see most of the bikes still there!

- New PRs on all pool distances. Have dropped a true 5-7sec per 100 off my T-pace since Jan, now below 1:30/100 since using vasa. This is a big deal for me - I was pretty stagnant in the year before getting my Vasa, due to limited pool access and quality of pool time. I've been doing about 4-5hrs/week of pool+vasa, am curious to see what a swim block of 7-9 hrs might do.

- My vasa experience is really making clear the importance of swim fitness on top of technique. You really need both, but I think the fitness is consistently understated by good swimmers who advise MOP or BOPers. The added power and endurance in my arms is really, really obvious to me, and that's just for 7-10sec/100 gained. There is no way in hell that any 2:00/100 swimmer in the pools I swim at would be able to match my arm fitness - they're not slow just because of their suboptimal technique - they have a huge fitness gap. It's so big that I could swim head out of water and still readily beat these slowsters just from swim fitness.

- I feel that Vasa yards = pool yards in terms of efficacy for me. 3000 on the Vasa is as good as 3000 in the pool at same intensity for me. I will admit it's easier to go all-out in a masters swim group with people to push you.

- I still swim about 30-90 mins per week in the pool, in 30 min lunch sessions, averaging about 2 x 30 min sessions per week. I actually don't go aerobically hard in the pool, since it's usually a crappy circle swim. I do it for 'feel ' of the water, and do mainly short 100s on plenty of rest at faster than T-pace. I know from experience this sort of limited training on its own = bad results for me, as I lose swim fitness quickly without hammering short rest sets, but since I'm getting my swim fitness on the Vasa, I've gotten significantly faster. I don't think I need any more than 30mins of pool per week with the Vasa training to maintain my level of swim feel as a MOPer.


- One key workout that I'm finding at my MOP level of swimming as a surpisingly effective workout is a long 90 minute steady state near-continuous Vasa swim. In the pool, I would never do this workout, but it's pretty easy to do on the Vasa, and definitely gives you a big kick to your arm endurance. It makes a huge difference in anything longer, really noticeable in a masters swim I did a few weeks ago that was 60 mins long - in the last 10 mins of the workout, with hard 200s, I was almost lapping people that had kept up with me in my lane earlier because they had faded. I had literally no dropoff in speed at the 60 minute mark and felt great even after blowing it out in the end.

- On the converse, a key workout for my power is all-out 50s on the Vasa. I'll do 2000 or even 3000m, with 50m all-out, 50m rest. Really good with the powermeter to keep you honest.

(continued)


- Any drawbacks/negatives to Vasa? Not many. The cost and size of the machine is the big one. $2k is a lot (not compared to race wheels though!) and it does take up about 10-12 feet of space. Your chest can also get a little sore if you don't move around from time to time, but it's really minor. Also, if you hate being indoors like on a bike trainer, you will probably hate this thing just as much, if not more, so don't buy it if you can't stand your bike trainer or treadmill. (I like indoor training with video entertainment and numeric feedback; without it, it's awful!)

- Any surprising benefits? Actually, a really big one for me - my Vasa doesn't aggravate my shoulders at all. In the pool, whenever I'm over 8k/week, I start getting shoulder pain. At 10+k/wk, it actually becomes the big limiter for me, and it's really frustrating. On the Vasa, I have zero pain at all, even if doing repeat all-out sprint sets. I think the pain is due to the high elbow recovery, which is omitted on the Vasa. I've since switched almost all my hard and long sets to Vasa for this reason, and have been pain-free on it. (I still get the shoulder pain if I crank up pool volume.) One of the Vasa info .pdfs actually says other users experience the same, so apparently I'm not alone. Avoiding this shoulder pain alone is worth the cost of the machine to me, as it opens up a whole new world of swim volume progress to me. Not saying it'll solve everyone's shoulder pain (it won't!) but it's been a godsend for me.

- Would I buy it again? Hell yes. If it broke, I would immediately order another one, and I wish I had bought it years ago. (No, I don't get any commission from Vasa.) I've said it before, but at least for me at my level of swimming, I wouldn't accept an endless pool or in-ground pool even if offered it, as the maintenance-free Vasa is so easy to use and has so much of a smaller footprint, and seems to work for me every bit as well as pool swimming.

I agree with your feedback lightheir, and nice of you to post a lengthy feedback too. Perhaps compare notes and swim efforts. I would like to learn more how our vasa swim training will correlate to pool/race times.

As for myself I am stuck inland with no pool. As I did with my running started a blog I started one for the Vasa blog http://vasaergotraining.blogspot.com.au/ to record my efforts. Like you to document the pros and cons. I am in my 4th week now, and how time flies. Since getting it it has been all about conditioning and building strength in the upper body. I know my aerobic capacity has improved as I know have a good lung capacity and its is great to know every morning my 2000m comes in <40mins swimming which is perfect before work then having that alternate evening for either the run or bike. Physically I feel like a bull....super fit. Using my garmin 910 in other' mode I capture HR and then use the vasa ergo watts, so know I have a good data score in the training peaks/wko using hrTSS scoring in the PMC . The ATL is climbing like the profile of Mt Everest.

My detailed 4 weeks can be seen on the blog

Summary: each week the door setting was increased by one starting at one ad now on 4, it is amazing that I can finish sub 40mins as the setting grows by one. Initially in the week it is hard but on average the week ending on Friday I have no problem completing that 2000m. So much so now that the time when I did start on week one the time was 45.xx now its 35.xx. This weekend and every weekend I will do an indoor triathlon SBR, 2100m swim, 2hr ride then 40-60min run at MP or HMP depending on the build phase using the vasa, computrainer and treadmill.

Times are definitely coming down. My goal is sub 27 by the end of 3 months.
Stroke rate: anything sub 47 is slow, mostly 49-50.
Distance; 2000m every time it is the best use of my time, and like my running and biking I am working on SS or sub85% HIT efforts building endurance. Speed can come in another 2 months. Weekends I will do race like efforts then onto the bike for a brick session finishing before breakfast.
Real swim: None..not yet anyway and haven't done any for more than 2 yrs. yes being thinking of this once this australian winter comes to an end. No fun being suck in a drafty garage at altitude. So the day I go out for a real swim will be a nice sunny day where I can SBR in one session is going to be a treat/reward for the 3.5-4 hrs of swimming each week. And perhaps I might just go the distance this australian summer ad not touch a pool just to prove a point or two

Cost: I bought mine on craigslist $600 plus shipping/boxing and shipping/taxes was nearly $1100. And all worth the cost and 6 moths of trolling CL. I was close to biting the bullet on new. Even thought that buying the trainer version would be the next best thing to the ergo.

Because of the cold a beanie helps the soften the head rest n the mono rail. though lately the beanie is getting to moist, so a towel on the rail takes up the sweat. I have added an old tube loop around my ankles to hold the feet togther enabling more stability in the core and resemble a race like swim.

Ergo. I use the tempo mode almost daily to ensure spm is keeping me honest, then at the conclusion of the WO record the wattage. Over time a matrix will emerge to facilitate better training further down the road....er pool.

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age is just a number after your name

Geez, you guys are making me want to tap the credit line....... :)


Ah man, forget it. Just went through the checkout for fun to see about shipping. $450 US to ship to Canada!
$2000US, 15% import tax + ship = 2750, then about 10% exchange......over $3k delivered.
Guess its gonna be a set of $60 Stretchcordz for now...

Yes, that's pretty pricey.

I'd see if you can get a bench to lie down on while using the stretch cords. I did it without a bench pretty seriously, and honestly, it didn't help one bit - I suspect with a bench it would be significantly more effective, at least from what I'm experiencing with the Vasa.

I bought one last December and have been using it almost exclusively. I swam once in the pool maybe 2 weeks before eagleman just to be sure that I wouldn't drown.
I swam a little slower at eagleman this year than I did last year, but it wasn't wetsuit legal this year.
my swim at challenge new albany was right about with the others coming out of the water and wasn't bad for me. **I've been in the water 3x this year**
it makes my life way easier. I can hop on before work or after, etc. easier than driving to the pool at 530am and rushing to get to work on time.
I can sit at home and have some coffee then hop on it while watching some espn on the ipod.

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Fruit snacks are for winners

the timing of these posts is awesome... I just pulled the trigger and ordered the Ergo last week, should be delivered tomorrow....

I have a longer running background, so do relatively well there... I have learned to embrace and really make myself suffer on the indoor trainer with TrainerRoad, and have been quite pleased with my bike splits in my two IM's... however, like many triathletes I just struggle with the swim... I've only swam for the last two years, and so am not good by any means (IM splits of 1:31 and 1:27)... because swimming is so technical, I find I pay too much attention to trying to refine my stroke... because of this, I really feel my swim strength/fitness takes a big hit... I just find it so hard to make myself suffer in the pool...

I know the Ergo is not a replacement for actual swimming, but I'm so excited to be able to use the power meter and get in some "structured" swim fitness workouts, without the struggle of breathing...

I paid full price, but had been thinking of buying one for awhile... If it leads to the improvements that you guys allude to, then it will be worth it for me... the ability to train at home is a huge draw too...

thanks to other for posting your reviews!! really enjoy reading them...

Would anyone mind sharing how they are using the power data?

Although I've been capturing it with my Garmin 910xt I'm not 100% sure I understand exactly what I should be looking at.

Also, for those who are capturing their power data are you doing your workouts at one long interval or breaking everything (each set) down individually.

Would love to hear what you folks are doing!!!

Why do you not just monitor your pace??? Speed is the bottom line, no???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

My question was about the power data that's captured. Not pace and speed.

Again, I'm not an expert by any stretch, but just relaying what I'm doing.

For just monitoring effort, pace or power work on the Vasa - I strongly suspect the power is just mathematically calculated from the pace or vice-versa, not some whole separate powermeter measurement.

I think the only reason to go specifically with power is if, for example you were going to do bikelike workouts like "80% of FTP effort" or similar, where you go at a percent of a tested power number. (I, however, have not done this.)

I switched to power from pace at one point also because you can set the Vasa to give you dedicated power for each arm pull, whereas you can't do that for pace. I wanted to make sure my left arm wasn't lagging my right in the pull, and thus I made sure their power numbers were comparable if not identical. After doing that, I've stuck with power, but as long as I'm not checking the per arm power, pace would be just as good.

I'm actually trying not to get too caught up in micromanaging the numbers, though. The PM is a bit jumpy, so it's hard to target a specific number as opposed to a range. I just try to increase the load progressively, and use the PM to make sure I don't slack off on intervals or long efforts.

There is a new swimming ergometer coming soon - SwimFast: http://kayakpro.com/swimfast/

I'd like to see a comparison.

So, I take it you can't see both power and pace at the same time??? IIRC, the Concept 2 rowing erg is similar in that you can see pace or watts or calories, but not all three at same time. Being a "pace guy", I've always gone with pace on the rowing erg. If you monitor power during the workout, can you get your overall avg pace at the end??? I would think that you could as you can on the C2.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

It defaults to showing both pace and watts simultaneously. It wil also show avg pace or lap pace if you program it to show it.

If you switch to the mode where it shows watts for each arm separately, then it cannot show both pace/watts for each arm simultaneously. I used that mode for awhile to make sure I wasn't getting asymmetric, but now I'm back to the default display.

Just put my 4 year old to bed, and hopped on the Vasa for 90 minutes (watched the Walking Dead and House of Cards, good shows!). It really feels like cheating to be able to get in swimming so painlessly and conveniently. If I'm lucky, I may be able to hit 10 hrs of swim training this week, and my arms/lats are feeling it - if I can keep this up for a few weeks, I'm certain I'll make a jump in swim performance.

how do you capture the power data with your 910XT??

I've read online that they are working on ANT integration, and when i talked to the staff last week they said they were still working on it and didn't know when it would be released...

It defaults to showing both pace and watts simultaneously. It wil also show avg pace or lap pace if you program it to show it. If you switch to the mode where it shows watts for each arm separately, then it cannot show both pace/watts for each arm simultaneously. I used that mode for awhile to make sure I wasn't getting asymmetric, but now I'm back to the default display.

Just put my 4 year old to bed, and hopped on the Vasa for 90 minutes (watched the Walking Dead and House of Cards, good shows!). It really feels like cheating to be able to get in swimming so painlessly and conveniently. If I'm lucky, I may be able to hit 10 hrs of swim training this week, and my arms/lats are feeling it - if I can keep this up for a few weeks, I'm certain I'll make a jump in swim performance

Ah, I see...thanks for the info. So, "how far" do you typically go in your 90 min sessions??? If you could ever get a lane for 90 min where you were just splitting with one other swimmer, it would be interesting to see how your yardage compares in the pool vs on the Vasa. In any case, 10 hrs of all freestyle is quite a bit, prob 25,000 to 30,000 yds or so. That's pretty huge compared to the avg tri guy. You are absolutely correct in your judgment about swim volume being huge. Eventually, you should get to the point where you consider 1500 m as just a warm-up. I will often swim around 5000 yds of freestyle, along with maybe 2000 of other strokes, kicking, etc, and I'm always fastest during the last 1000 free, because I'm good and warmed up. I generally swim the whole 1500 m course as my swim warm-up in an oly dist race, and in a half iron, I'll swim at least 1500 of the 1900 m. In the single iron race I've done, I swam 1000 m for warm-up.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

On the Vasa, it says I go 4200 meters of freestyle for 90 minutes. In the pool, I average about 3000yards per hour when I have the lane to myself, which pretty much only occurs if I'm off work for some reason and can get to the pool at some strange hour where it's empty (like 10:30AM on a weekday) so I rarely get to do that.

I know swimmers do a lot of volume and 1500m can be a literal warmup for them, but I think I've got a long way before that occurs; right now, 1500 is def a legit training stimulus for me and can be done in 30mins, either on the Vasa or pool - I'm too time crunched for otherwise, so I'll typically just drop right into a set of 15 x 100 or 8 x 200 on the Vasa, or pool on the rare day where there's no circle swim. (Happens during winter, but in summer season like now, it's always a crappy circle lunch swim, so it's usually a near-random set of 25s to 200s depending on who I'm waiting for and/or trying to swim around, done at a pretty high intensity when I'm actually swimming and not waiting.)

Well, it sounds like you're on your way though. When you get to where you feel better during the last 20 min than your first 20 of the 90 min workout, then you'll know you're really in swim shape. This reminds me of a short interview I read somewhere fairly recently (within last 2 yrs or so) with one of the top 1/2-mary guys; his daily, e.g. 7 days/wk, training mostly consisted of a 12-16 mile run with a steady pace for first 10-14 mi, then running the last 2-3 mi as hard as he could. This is all he did, no intervals, no "tempo" run, fartlek, "long run", etc, etc. This has always been the way I've liked to do all my workouts also, be they sw, bk, or run, and it was quite interesting to see that a very fast (around 1:02-ish IIRC) half mary guy trained similarly. Since I know you're a runner by background, figured you would appreciate this anecdote also:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Yes, I agree with you. I sort of use that unofficial feeling as my fitness guide as well, adjusting to length. I used to be a marathon runner, and I knew I was getting near race shape when in my 22 mile training run, miles 19-22 were by far the fastest and most exciting.

I get that feeling now in the pool if I go easy that week in volume, but since I'm ramping up the swim volume a lot, I'm getting toasted on the long stuff the whole way, but that's a good sign of impending progress!

I'm on the fence about ordering one at the moment. If there is ANT integration coming down the pipe, I might just wait. That would be awesome and think they world sell more units.

Know exactly what you mean by "toasted" on the long stuff, but indeed it is a good sign of impending progress:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I found pics of the Swimfast Ergometer

There's isn't any details and can't find anything else online.

Looks interesting. Anyone have any info or know when this will hit the market?

Looks interesting

The Swimfast ergometer does look interesting but judging by the other machines the company is marketing....it does not seem to be a budget friendly competitor.

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"WHEW...I really regret that workout!"..............Noone

Was thinking the same. In fact, it may be more expensive than the vasa..

If a company could do a Vasalike swim machine for $1000, it' would make a killing.

I know that is what I had to go through. But then craiglist always has the trainer for sale. Me picking up the ergo on CL was just dogged perseverance, I was going to settle on the trainer and over time slowly add the parts to build it into a ergo. By using a garmin 910 you would still get the same benefit in feedback just no wattage. If you google vasa videos there was one vid at an expo where the coach got the swimmers on the trainer to pull up and release down the rail very slowly. Over several months they PR'd and won their NCAA meet. So it can be done another way

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age is just a number after your name

Good luck.

I would not be surprised to see your IM swim down to 1:15. giving it several months. Just to give you a perspective. in a little over 4 weeks my 2000m has dropped 5 mins. !! Of course there will be a platuea effect

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age is just a number after your name

I am using Garmin 910 in the 'other' mode so i have HR data then training peaks -TP, can do a hrTSS score. I will record the ergo average watts recording this in TP workout summary in the post workout description so i can in the calendar view see the summary and the matrix. Over time think the watts like power data on a bike or running pace. You are looking for a gradual growth in the watts and an even slower growth in the HR or perceived effect-PE. So the effect is similar to wattage on the bike. You will be able to hold a higher wattage for a given HR over a longer time.

good luck

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age is just a number after your name

I agree. Over time workouts will become like running. You just know by feel how a run feels easy, moderate, tempo or hard. By monitoring watts one can do just that as you say workout will become one of the other as a % of HR or watts. I know in my duathlon training my coach will interchnage between % of HR or % of 5k pacing.

Good luck

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age is just a number after your name

Pace per/100 and watts is visable.

By pacing it can work but will not in the long term, consider this. Over time fitness improves then the pace will become easier, HR will drop therefore the workout effort -perceived effort-PE also becomes an easier PE and you are not developing your engine aerobically. In an ideal training workout it should be consistent and taxing. By developing the PE, the heart is being worked and therefore aerobic engine and the neuromuscular/ nervous system capacity your pace times will slowly fall or climb depending on the sport. Think of it like running. Over time running becomes easier at a pace but your are not working that engine then you must increase the pace/HR/PE to keep growing/improving.

Hopefully I have made sense.
M

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age is just a number after your name

Nice to compare times....

My everyday session is 2000m in around 37.xx. using door settings #4. what door setting are you using?
I guess when I have the time I'll try an hour of vasa swimming. I would imagine my hour would be 3000 and 80mins would be 4000 on settings #4

M

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age is just a number after your name

There is. I spoke with vasa admin the other month. They are working with Training peaks for obvious reasons. But I would say the current ergo would be update able.

M

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age is just a number after your name

No mono rail which means that the effort pulling on the paddles once does not get the resistance for the band. I find this a benefit pulling against the resistance band. I see a limiter on this
M

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age is just a number after your name

x2

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age is just a number after your name

Pace per/100 and watts is visible. By pacing it can work but will not in the long term, consider this. Over time fitness improves then the pace will become easier, HR will drop therefore the workout effort -perceived effort-PE also becomes an easier PE and you are not developing your engine aerobically. In an ideal training workout it should be consistent and taxing. By developing the PE, the heart is being worked and therefore aerobic engine and the neuromuscular/ nervous system capacity your pace times will slowly fall or climb depending on the sport. Think of it like running. Over time running becomes easier at a pace but your are not working that engine then you must increase the pace/HR/PE to keep growing/improving. Hopefully I have made sense.

You have certainly made sense; my point is simply that using pace is using the bottom line. I guess power is nice to have but who really cares about power in the swim; it's not like the bike where there are established correlations between power and speed. Certainly you could develop these for swimming but why bother, since your pace/100 m is your bottom line. You don't have hills on the swim, which I think is where power really earns its keep, but rather simply increases or decreases in pace. In any given swim workout, I keep my effort pretty much the same, which is as much effort as I can put out given my existing fatigue from previous workouts.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Whew! My arms are pretty tired now!

Last 3 weeks of pool+vasa were:
-6hrs
-9hrs
-9.5hrs target this week, have done 8.5 with one day left

My arms feel pretty toasted for the first time in a long time. Like that deep fatigue you get when you're really increasing volume. It's all freestyle, as well, with minimal drills and zero kicking drills. (I barely kick when I swim intentionally, so for now, going to go all pull.)

It seems to be working though - despite the big arm beatdown, I'm both feeling and seeing real improvement and all new PR paces for my MOPish level of swimming. Did a set of about 18 x100yds in the pool 2 days ago with <15sec rest between each, all from 1:25-1:27. Still far from fast, but that's already a 2-3 sec drop at least from 3 weeks ago, and that wasn't even close to an all out effort.

I'll also add that due to the arm beatdown, my training is looking more like a marathon runner workout than a pool swimmer, mainly due to fatigue. Id love to say I can go hard day in day out at that 1:25-7 pace for all of it, but I only save those harder efforts for the short 30min pool sessions. On the vasa, I'm probably going mediocre to easy in effort, but going longer, up to 1hr40mins, so more like a run workout. I used to do even harder stuff on vasa, but at least for now, my arms are simply too tired to keep it up at this volume. I'm optimistic though that if I give it another few weeks, it'll respond like my run legs do to volume, and after adapting, I can start keeping overall high speeds.

To reiterate, the convenience of the Vasa is crazy. I was planning on doing all swimming for 6-8wks, but it turns out that because it's so convenient to do Vasa, I put up 6 hrs of running last week, and will probably put up 6-7 this week. (No biking for now.) So 15-16hrs/week of swim+run training for now, and it actually doesn't feel like a monster time commitment since I just do the Vasa for 60-90 min before bedtime - do that 6 days a week + 2x30min pool and you're at 8-9hrs/week of legit swim training. I can say for sure there is no way I could even do 9 hrs of swim training in a pool logistically with zero bike/run, but it seems so easy that it's like cheating with this machine.

Am looking forward to revisiting a local masters group that I rarely go to, and usually see the same guys in my speed lane - it'll be fun to see if I can significantly outpace them all the next go around.

I ordered a Vasa ergometer a couple days ago. It will be here on Tuesday.

How long does the assembly take? Easy?

I can't wait to start training with it.

The assembly is easy, but because the two pieces (rail and the head unit) don't stand up alone on their own, it's a bit unwieldly. I spent an hour doing it carefully with instructions, but if I did it now, it would take me <10 minutes. Don't worry about it at all - it goes together like a piece of cake.

You'll love it - keep in mind your shoulder will take few weeks to get used to the effect of gravity, at least that's what happened to me. I don't notice gravity at all anymore, even over 90 mins, but it was really noticeable for me when I started since pool water reduces gravity to hold your shoulders up.

Great work LH!!! You will be the envy of your Masters lane when you're leading the lane and leaving them in your wake!!! Maybe even move up a lane??? Your Masters friends may all go out and buy Vasa trainers now, in which case you should get a commission:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Heh heh. I'm actually sure some of those guys/gals that I see every time I go (which is only a few times per year) will be shocked to see how much faster I've gotten, which is even more motivation to train! Too bad there are no splash n dashes around here - all the water in Norcal is all dried up and they canceled most of them =(

The only problem for one of the two masters groups I go to - one of them is a general (not triathlete) masters group. Which means I get SLAUGHTERED on everything except freeestyle. I'm literally the slowest of 20 or so swimmers the moment we do breast, back, and kicking. But the moment we hit freestyle, I'm like in upper 25-30% of the group. Makes it hard to place me in a lane there - I often seed myself low for the IM stuff, but if we go to all-freestyle, I push myself up 2 lanes over, causing a bit of confusion in the process.

The triathlon group is much better since it's all freestyle, but yes, I still get slaughtered on the kick sets. I don't go backwards or anything crazy like that, but my all-out pace for a 100yd kickset is 1:48, and if you ask me to do that twice, that'll drop to 2:00+/100yds. And I have no plans on improving that any time soon, not because I think it's worthless, but because you obviously need water to work on that and I'm rarely in the water anymore!

Now that you've had it for a while, how well do you think it would work as a complete substitute for swimming in the water?

Obviously it would be idea to be spending as much time in the pool, but I'm facing a move that would make that impossible. It looks like in a couple of months I'll moving to the Caucasus region for 3 years and I don't expect to have access to a pool. I'm considering buying a VASA to help maintain swim fitness and maybe even allow me to train for some European races. I'm an okay swimmer (~1:20/100yds) with decent form (for a triathlete), so hopefully I'd have some muscle memory when I finaly do get a chance to get back into the water.

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-Andrew

I suspect it would work - if I only had a Vasa, I am 100% certain I could complete a race swim of even IM distance without difficulty with zero pool time, but without any pool time, I definitely would not bet on getting a PR or "A" result.

I suspect that I'd lose significant feel for the water with zero pool time, and that would cost me, even if my pull power and cadence were better; I unfortunately don't have any hard evidence though whether the gains on a Vasa would offset the loss of water feel, but it's hard to deny how important water training is, even if it's only a sprinkling.


As well, a large factor will depend on how good a swimmer you were before starting and how ingrained your pool technique is before the Vasa. On the bright side, I would consider my swim technique 'subpar' at best, being an adult-onset swimmer self-taught with no talent and almost no coaching, and if my technique is good enough to make gains with the Vasa, it's likely that it'll work for the majority of triathletes who aren't total water noobs.

Judging from what I'm doing now, even 30 minutes of pool time every 2 weeks would be enough for me to continue having the gains I'm making now on the Vasa.

However, if you literally have zero pool access, I can't think of anything remotely close to working compared to the Vasa. There is not a single person on any forum of any sort who has posted about successfully using swim cords alone and then with zero pool swim, had better results than if they had simply done nothing at all, and definitely no person who has commented about any sort of working swim cord program with minimal pool time who has actually improved their swim. I'll also report that for me at least, my big fear about losing water feel and thus speed, was definitely overblown judging from my results so far - I'm finding you really need only minimal pool time to reap the gains of the Vasa training, and the gains are real both in pool and OWS. (I did zero OWS prior to Vineman, still legit PR'd the swim by 2 minutes, which for me is huge.)

I can't believe an all-triathlete masters group where they all can kick an all-out 100 yd faster than 1:48??? A 1:48/100 yd kick is excellent by tri standards, way, way above average, since most tri people can't go much faster than 1:30 for swimming 100 yd all out.

Awhile back you made some comments about having a scissor kick when swimming freestyle; do you have a scissor when just kicking with the board??? Or have you managed to banish the scissor???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Hah - maybe I'm decent at "1" kick set all out, but as said, get me on 2+, and I'm dying at 2:00+/100yds, so you likely hold my kicking in too high regard!

I unfortunately still have a small scissor kick on normal swimming (not with the board at all). I can't seem to banish the thing. Interestingly, I can also swim with a tight ankle band and I go straight no problem (about 20sec slower per 100 though), and I can also swim fairly normally while tightly banded with a buoy zero kick, so I'm not completely reliant on that small scissor kick to keep cadence and propulsion.

I actually think my scissor has to do with breathing rotation - I def look like I'm still overrotating on my breaths on my homebrewed video despite me keeping only one goggle out of the water. Am still trying to fix it, but it's not easy! Part of it also may have to do with my speed or lack thereof - the scissor decreases a lot if I go all out like 1:20 or just under per 100, and worsens the easier I go.

Of course, I'd probably benefit even more from kick sets in the pool to correct it, but alas, that's low priority for me now given my limited pool time.

Actually, since you do not scissor with the board, prob your scissor would go away if you were just able to do more in-the-water swimming to work the kinks out of your stroke, but it doesn't sound like it is holding you back that much. Eventually you'll get to where you don't need to scissor at all to breathe. In any case, you're making excellent progress, much better than I would have predicted. You've made me a believer in the Vasa:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Yes, thanks.

I actually spend 4 weeks in the pool doing nothing but trying to eliminate that scissor kick completely a year ago. I don't think I'll ever get rid of it, but I do think part of it is that I use a slow 2-beat kick and that tends to accentuate the kick appearance - when I actively kick hard, it seems to look pretty normal on my homebrewed video, so I think part of it is just my 2-beater. (But it's still nothing as nice as that Shinji guy on Total immersion video so I clearly have progress to make.)

You should never, ever, under any circumstances, watch TI videos. You have violated the strict aspiring fish protocol:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

LOL! I'm totally not a TI fan myself (I actually blame TI for some real problems - in the book I had, it literally said to rotate so far for the breath that you were nearly on your back. It said the sweet spot for breath balance is literally almost on your back! I think they might have changed it, but wow that really killed my swimming for over a year), but that Shinji Takeuchi video is pretty nice, irregardless of TI.

What door setting are you using.
Are you monitoring your watts and spm?

I ask as it it was an interesting comparison between us. Then to see how it will be transferred for me when I get to the pool. I have just put move up yo door # 5 setting and now have noticed that there is an place of needing adaption to the greater resistance. This week for me was a an easy week for FTP testing on Swim bike run. Next week is the start of another three week build and if anything like last 4-5 weeks I will need to take a day off during the week or just skip the Friday before the weekend indoors triathlon SBR I do.
Like you I have observed too have found the swimming is useful to the whole overall fitness being off the feet.
I'm swimming 2000m a day with easy on every other day, then Saturdays I'd races day simulation in SBR.

What's rewarding is the increased in door setting by the end o the week I am swimming in about the same time/spm but the watt numbers are growing. Now up to 62 watts on #5 door for 40 mins.

All of this though is having to be super careful monitoring fatigue. And like you and others so nice to roll out of bed and not waste time driving to the pool :-))

Well I'm off to my race simulation now being 70.3 all before breakfast!

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age is just a number after your name

I honestly don't have much wattage difference between doors. I can even pull door 7 for the whole workout, but my cadence drops for the given effort.

I typically hold 60-70watts for moderate effort, anywhere from 45-90 minutes. 50-60 if I'm going easier, <50 is recovery pace.

Max sprints for me are like 120watts peak but more like 100-120watts for 100m sprint. My pool sprint works out to 1:20-1/100m for around max type 100, so pretty much what the vasa pace is pegging me at.

Just out of interest, are times/paces/distances pretty realistic compared to real swimming?

I'd say for mine, it's almost spot-on my pool paces per 100m. But I'm sure it'll differ for some - I probably just happen to be near the average of whatever they used to calculate it. (Obviously if I put on a drag suit in the pool, I'd be way slower in the water compared to the Vasa.)

As a result, the distances for me are pretty much 1:1, which is convenient for me but YMMV.

I contacted the owner back in the winter and he said the price should be ~ $2,000 (about the same as vasa).

He said it will be convertible to paddle-board, SUP and kayak.

Well done of the workload and the feedback from the workout. I'm no guru but from my workout out if you were in the 45-50 AG that would put you at the FOP.

You must have some really good strength in those shoulders/arms and those pecs must be bulging by now. I now mine have got firmer in only two weeksn and after four weeks my upper body has never been like this since 2 yrs ago from pool swimming. Mind you every day on the vasa from nothing is a not a great example. Then I suspect in 4 weeks I too should be able to pull on door settings 7.

Thanks for the feedback on your times. Nice to know those in front of me using the vasa are getting the desired results that I can look forward too. I guess I can relax, not fret about getting to the pool, though makes me wonder about my swim technique.. Another story for later.

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age is just a number after your name

Almost on your back, OMG, this TI stuff is worse than I had imagined possible!!! Did it take you over a year before you figured out that actually the reverse is true, i.e. that you want to turn your head as little as possible??? Wow, that is possibly the worst swim guidance I have ever heard of. I'm just glad you've gotten well past that:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I thought you were swimming in a 25-yd (scy) pool and going 1:20-ish for a 100 yds all-out, which is a bit shorter than 100 meters. You could say I'm splitting hairs but really the diff is about 10% which is quite significant, e.g. 1:20/100 scm = about 1:12/100 scy. I'm very conscious of this because my swim club has an indoor 25-yd pool and an outdoor 25-m pool and, in the summer T-storm season, often times the lifeguards will run us out of the outdoor, 25-m pool due to T&L, and we have to move inside to the 25-yd pool, so I have to reset my expectations time-wise for any given 100, 200, or whatever. This happened today as a matter of fact:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Woops, yes you're right. The Vasa in meters and all the pools I swim in are yards, so no, I don't sprint at 1:20/100m, more like 1:20/100yds, so probably like 1:27ish/100m. I've had rude awakenings a few years ago when I got into a 25m pool and saw some slow times!

I just did my first workout on my new Vasa............ Rude awakening on how weak I am in swimming. I did a 50 minute workout today and it was TOUGH. I'm an adult onset swimmer and have been swimming for 11 months. I'm hoping to improve on my 2:00+min/100m for 1500m. I probably averaged about 15-20 watts for the whole workout. It felt a lot harder on my muscles than swimming without the breathing issues. It said I only did 1800m but my muscles felt like I swam 3000m. I'm hoping to see improvements before my first 70.3 in 4 weeks. I'll still be going to the pool at least 3x per week too. I'll give some progress reports later on. I hope to see some of the results lightheir has had!

Great that you're on the Vasa road to improvement. Good to have buddies - it felt lonely on these forums for awhile with so few folks with it.

Expect to feel that muscular beatdown for quite awhile, weeks, if not 2 months, but keep at it - it gets a lot easier after 2-3 weeks. My first 2 weeks on the machine were averaging 25-30watts for 2000m, and then my arms were DEAD. You'll get up to 50 watts in a matter of weeks, but getting over that, at least for me, has taken more steady work.

For me, a 10 watt jump was a significant effect on pool swim - you don't even need a watch since you'll feel so much stronger for distance. A 20 watt jump is a like a whole different category of swimmer, like 10sec/100.

Keep us updated - good to have other folks for motivation.

Last tip - after you get a bit used to the machine, try and video your pool stroke and make it look like the machine stroke (or those Karly pipes videos). I was a bit horrified to see how errant the tail end of my pull was in the pool, and turns out I was so focused on 'high elbow' on the pull that I was distorting my stroke. I had to actually dip my arm and elbow a fair amount (it actually feels like a dropped elbow to me, but it's not on my own video) to get it to where it's supposed to be, and once I did that same drop on the Vasa I was putting out even more watts. I do feel like once I did this, I got even more concordance between Vasa training and pool training - before this adjustment I'll guesstimate I felt Vasa was about 80% as effective as pool yards, but once I made that small fix, it feels like a 1:1 concordance, meaning Vasa time = pool time in effectiveness for me.

Love getting on the Erg for a quick warm up before a ride or heading to pool for session. Mixing up the combination of SPM and Watts depending on what the body needs for the day. Short on time, but want some big bang... Try a 3 minute warm up mixing pull patterns. then 4 x 30 second build ups to a moderately hard effort. Then go 5 rounds of 10 pulls max effort then a minute of active recovery. Helpful to hook up both of the resistance bands the bench for these and I prefer Damper Door #2 for maximum ability to accelerate hand speed through pull. I will typically see peaks watts at 240-260 during this set. Sport specific power for sure. Cool down with another 3 minutes with good technique focus.

Another good session on the Erg is once you have determined your endurance SPM, start at Damper Door #2 (DD#2) and go for 15 seconds, then adjust to DD#3 and go for 15 more seconds holding the same SPM. Adjust 2 more times up to DD#5 and that will give you 1 minute of total work in 15 sec intervals.
If you can continue to hold SPM, you will see a nice increase in Watts on each subsequent interval. Repeat the sequence 2-4 more time depending on your ability.

Let me make sure I understand: Lets divide the stroke into 4 parts. Part 1, recovery while hand is over water. Part 2, initial catch, Part 3 Middle of Stroke, Part 4 end sweep.

Are you specifically referring to the end sweep?

I can't even max out 140watts on the Vasa if doing more than 20 yards and def cannot get remotely near 240 even for a max single pull - that's strong!

Wow! Your pulls are what my FTP is on the bike.

I just got my VASA last month. I've only been on it average 1-2x per week but I'm only doing avg of 20 watts on a 45 minute workout. Looks like I've got a lot of ceiling left.

I was actually pulling ineffectively before I video'd it, because I was so fixated on trying to hold a 'high elbow" (keep elbow near top of water) that I changed the angles of my pull and my forearm got all sorts of crazy in the process. So my 'high elbow' wasn't a real high elbow - it was a fake high elbow, only allowed because I would compromise the rest of my stroke at the cost of keeping the elbow up. Lost a lot of power with that.

My elbow is a lot lower in the water now after videoing it, but the stroke looks more natural and has significantly more power. I've come to accept that it's futile for a MOP swimmer like me to try and force my arm into emulating Sun Yang when I clearly lack the Musc. Endurance and flexibility to even get close - I end up breaking my stroke if I try and fake my way to that high elbow at my ability level.

Stick with it. The power will come up. Keep focussing on the technique. Sport specific strength is a great limiter for triathletes especially those adult learned. You may want to incorporate more frequency and shorter sessions (some of which have a higher intensity) to continue refining technique. Good Luck

wow I feel really weak now. I have been using the vasa 4-5 times a week for the past couple of weeks and cannot imagine pulling that hard. I start out around 40-50 watts but for anything longer than 500m its usually down to lower 30's

I am still confused on what Light is describing however I can tell you that the swim pull is an inefficient movement and the single aim should not be to create the strongest possible pull.

I think those differences you're talking about re: technique of not creating the strongest possible pull are more relevant to FFOP swimmers.

For a MOPer like myself, it's like night and day with a more powerful pull with faster turnover with best power. Sure, I don't pull all bent-armed like a row on the Vasa, but I've found that as long as I try and emulate an EVF (or sad semblance of it), I get faster.

I'm up to 70 watts for 3000m, but done in short sets of 200-400m with about 10-15sec rest in between. My pool swimming has continued to improve as well, but more on the endurance component - I can hold that 1:25/100 for 3000 worth of intervals between 100-400 with short rest, possibly more now if I push it hard, as opposed to doing it for half that distance about 6 weeks ago. But it's hard for me to do all that swim volume even on the Vasa - I've fallen a bit off the swim-core wagon and need to get back on; although right now, 4.5 hrs per week of serious swim training = falling off the wagon, whereas pre-vasa, zero swim training = falling off the wagon!

You can do recovery stroke on the vasa. Turn your body 180, so your facing the back, secure the platform to the front of the machine instead of the back, use handles instead of paddles, then work the recovery part only. Overwater style, no pull. It's very effective, I'm sure they have something on their website.

It's a great machine. I've been using the ergo meter for years.

"Then go 5 rounds of 10 pulls max effort then a minute of active recovery. Helpful to hook up both of the resistance bands the bench for these and I prefer Damper Door #2 for maximum ability to accelerate hand speed through pull. I will typically see peaks watts at 240-260 during this set."

So, JOOC, how fast are you in the pool if you're hitting 260 watts on the Vasa??? Are you a former Oly Trials guy, or sub-50 for 100 scy??? I've never been on the Vasa (use stretch cords instead) so I have no idea how watts translate to 50/100 yd times, but I have been swimming competitively most of my life.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

3 months later I am now my 4th week on setting 7 having slowly worked my way from the bottom door setting #1, for the past 3 months it has been just pulling 2000m HIM efforts then up the ladder on the door setting each week or other week. In my last 4 weeks of build my mid week 3 times a week in training is at 1:40-1:50, then I go race pace on the Saturday where I do my own triathlon s/b/r in the garage. Prior to this for the first two months it was swim every day for 40 mins, study the watts and HR, I have the date in training peaks. Today I pulled 2000m in 32:55, 50spm and 95 watts. During the week my TT 1000 was sub 1:30. For the readers I started at 2000m in about 41 mins, now I'm at pulling 2k at 34 without break a sweat. For me now its about pulling thru to the end of the stroke, engaging lats, tri's and all those other shoulder engaging muscle not normally focused on. I'm very impressed now. My upper body, arms are super strong even though feel like Ian Thorpe shoulders but in reality they not... They just feel tight. My first test is coming up in 4 weeks time Olympic distance. Having not touch the pool in 2 yrs this will be interesting as for the breathing and leg kick... Oh and with wetsuit wow this will be an interesting test as for speed.

I am now going into 100 repeats with 20s rest and slowly bring this down to 5 s rests in the final week.

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age is just a number after your name

UPDATE:
4 months since getting the vasa, just had two races in the last two weeks
One being OD distance, fresh water lake, and a bit choppy. Went 25:xx
Following week sprint distance, beach start started wide keeping out of the swimmer chop (maybe 15-20s slower including stopping to adjust the new goggles) 10:12 or ~ 1:21/100m

this IS a big difference to swim sub 1:30. I have not trained in a pool for 2 seasons. Last year nothing only for races. And then the year before I was in the pool every other day. My last pool training was May 2014. In fact my fastest sprint swim in a salt water waterway was 11:44 on the back of proper training.in feb 2012. Now mind you I just swam in a HUUB wetsuit this sprint race, but the week before was just a basic 2xu wetsuit. There you go. the proof is in the pudding. The only thing i would need now is better sighting, keep to the inside of the course and perhaps see another 20s off my time. In another couple weeks will be a another OD race and then the following week to this a HIM race. Perhaps a sub 30, but lets add another 10s/100m that's 1:32/100m, and sub 30.

Not bad in my books.

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age is just a number after your name

Very cool to hear good things. I scored a Vasa Erg on Craigslist and am excited to give it a go (actually mostly excited to not have to get up at 3a.m. to go to the pool quite as often)

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Interesting.
I have been very fortunate and just bought a 2nd hand Erg for a very good price.
In comparison to many posters on here my swimming is "poor" in fact I believe I am a typical AG triathlete (IM PB 11:40:xx) average biker, average runner- below average swimmer with a 1:58/100m IM pace.
A change of job meant I wasnt getting enough pool time so I'm going to try to nail the swim using the Erg and this thread.

Plan is very loose at the mo but 2 or 3 30 min sessions per week with pool swimming once a week. This will be additional to the usual bike and run training I've been doing.

Like I said I'm just playing at this really and I've tended to spend more time on the life side of the life/training balance.

The first go resulted in very similar times for my pool swims 400m - 08:00 so we'll see.

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Dont complain about the results you did n't get from the training you did n't do.

I got the ANT+ power meter upgrade last month. Anyone have any experience with this? I haven't gotten around to downloading any workouts, but it looks promising. It will be nice to look at workouts and see progress.

What's is required to get the upgrade

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age is just a number after your name

Actually I use my garmin 910 in other mode , wear the hr strap and I then get the hr tss score plus I just display spm and watts at the end of a workout, all this becomes data for training peaks. I guess ant+ does this wirelessly for me

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age is just a number after your name

how did you get the ANT+ upgrade PM?? I've been waiting for this since I bought my ERG, but I don't see anything on their website...

Here's a link they emailed me before I ordered it, VASA. I can't find the direct link to it on their website , so may not be "fully" released yet. I spoke with Karen and their customer service was great.

I'm sure everyone can go back and forth on how much strength is involved in swimming. I'm curious to know how much power one of these young kids that swims 1:15/100yds. I have a hard time believing that some 10-11 year old kid can out pull me on a VASA. I also may be totally wrong. I'm only pulling 30-50W now on a set of 500m.

If the kid is truly swimming 1:15/100yds, it's going to be a lot of watts, like 90+, I'll bet.

While I haven't gotten a kid onto a Vasa, as posted before, I've seen girl 12yr old swimmers in a competitive local club do pull sets with paddles much larger than their hands at sub 1:20 pace, while banded and using a pull buoy. Their turnover is very impressive - it's very clear from seeing that, that these fast swimmers have a lot of power. (I cannot pull that fast with the exact same paddles, even all out!)

A big male slow swimmer might be able to outmuscle them on a Vasa for 10 strokes, but for the 50-100 strokes of a typical short set, forget about it. It's power, not strength.

Some swimmers though def get a lot of propulsion from their kick, and will need less arm power - I swam next to a girl competitive swimmer today at the Y who had a stroke rate nearly half of mine, but kept equal pace with me. Then I saw how fast she was with kick sets - yowzas! Her breaststroke with a board, head out of water, was like 1:40 pace! (Those little girls I saw were banded + buoy, so no kick contribution.)

I would love to get some kid on a VASA to test the theory of swimming and power. In the meanwhile.....I'll plug away on my VASA this winter.

I would too!

But just to be clear - I can guarantee you 100% that those 12-13 yr old girls in the pool were NOT pulling at a measly 30-40 watts equivalent. Just by looking at how fast that paddle was moving, I'd say at least 80 watts, minimum, and I wouldnt be at all surprised to see them 100+watts on those fast sets. There's no mystery there - they are absolutely NOT pulling at wimpy power levels, no friggin' way.


An adult male like me would probably be able to outmuscle them in watts for maybe 5, 10 pulls,which is like a 25yds/m length. But for 50m and above distances, forget about it.

Would the kids physical size be a major contributing factor here?
Smaller frontal area and a good position is going to cut through the water better?

Less power but more efficient?

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Dont complain about the results you did n't get from the training you did n't do.

I'm sure they do have less frontal area, and yes, that will require less power. But as said above, even with that as a main consideration, there is no way they are pulling the equivalent of a 30watt Vasa and swimming like sub 1:20 pace. 30 watts is a very gentle pull, you don't pull with good turnover with paddles at that wattage in the water.

Again, this also makes sense from a training standpoint. Everyone likes to say these 12 year old fast competitive swimmers have no power, but then ask these every last one of these girl swimmers how long and how much they train. It's like years of team swimming, and currently 5x/wk, minimum 1 hr of coached club swims with tons of intervals. If they didn't do that, well, they swim as fast as a typical 12 year old, which is like very slow, even compared to a middling AG triathlete. It's not just technique that they're gaining from those years and hours of HARD sets, it's a lot of power.

From my Vasa perspective, and yes, it seems to me mostly my sole opinion as of now, but i would definitely wager that even for these 12 year old girls, their power is by far the bigger factor as to why they are so fast compared to an middling triathlete, and NOT their technique or small frontal area. You could destroy their frontal area with a drag suit, destroy their technique with having them swim one-arm tied to their waist, and they would STILL beat well over 70% of triathletes at any distance in swimming. (Heck, a lot of them breastroke kick set at sub 1:40 pace, and that's with arms contributing zero since they're holding the board and head out of water, which is already faster than over half of triathletes.)

I really think this "more efficient" thing for faster swimmers is massively overstated and overhyped as a reason for why competitive swimmers and ex-competitive swimmers are so much faster than middling triathletes. When comparing competitive swimmers, all of whom have high power, yes, it can make or break with the tiny gaps required to win/lose. But when comparing a middling AG triathlete to them, no way.

This recently posted video also shows that even with a ridiculous drag suit and a freaking HELMET, a competitive swimmer can still beat a swimmer (reporter in this case) who swims 42 for 50m. Sorry, but these competitive swimmers have power, power, and more power, so much so it overwhelms even huge drag and technique penalties compared to even a decent swimmer. (42 for 50m is pretty decent, at least way faster than even an above avg triathlete.)
http://www.nrk.no/sport/ramm-vs.-henrik-christiansen-1.12078009

have been using my vasa pretty regularly this winter. Got into a real pool last night for a 800y time trial. 1:43 pace for me which is quite an improvement. Last July swam oly distance in 35 minutes. Still not able to generate much power compared to you guys though. I have been doing 3x a week 100m repeats and can hold 40 ish watts for the repeats and I am spent when done. Rest of the time just moderate pulling. Spending around 3 hours a week. Not sure how you guys generate so much power for so long.

The power will come in time, If you look at my previous posts. This is backed up with this week where I'm off to my Challenge Melbourne, my first 2k swim since using Vasa, during the past week my 3x week called for main set of 12 x 50 on the 1:00. I was pulling 112 watts for 50% then the last 4 or 5 I still managed 90+ watts.
Last weekend my OD swim have dropped some 4 mins without touching water.
What you will find if you really really focus on technique and engage those muscles, when you do touch the water you will be pleasantly surprised. I'm now at the FOP.

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age is just a number after your name

Oh and my 2k swim trials race pace on the vasa I pull around 84 watts for 33 mins.

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age is just a number after your name

Your power/pace on the Vasa sounds about right to me. 40 watts for 1:43ish pace if you're going all-out in a 800y time trial, sounds about right , although I'm sure there's a range of watts/speed depending on technique, but that's pretty what I'd expect if I were pulling at that sort of power on the Vasa.

I'm now off my heavy swim block, and back to 2-3hrs of pool-Vasa per week (compared to 7-9). My speed has still been maintained - what I am noticing though is that my endurance for 3000+yd workouts has diminished - I used to be able to power through 3000 easily, even getting faster in the final 20 minutes, but now with the reduced volume, I'm definitely feeling the back end and my pace slows on the later sets. I'm still overall substantially faster than I was pre-Vasa.

Definitely stick with it - I went through probably 2 months where my Vasa power didn't go anywhere, but I just kept increasing the volume on it, and then later on after acclimating to that volume increase, if I pulled back the volume, I was stronger and faster.

I still think it's the best thing for triathlete swimming for me - I can't think of a single negative about it except for the $2k price (it's built very well though, worth the 2k.)

I picked up a Vasa erg a couple weeks ago because of threads like these. Thanks for the testimonials, lightheir.

I'm currently reteaching my muscles how to burn after a 6 month layoff from swimming. I can comfortably hold a 2:00/100m pace for 30 minutes and 100s at 1:40 (on 2:00) start to hurt after 6-8. I swam a 36:20 (1:52/100m) at Buffalo Springs last summer so these paces feel about right. I had to cheat and put a book under the rear feet of the bench so that I wasn't bouncing at the base of the slope. Apparently 40-50 watts doesn't get you up the slope and that bouncing is pretty annoying.

I've got an oly in March that I'm looking forward to. I won't be able to get in the pool before then so it'll be interesting to see what happens.

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I think you have the Vasa trainer? The erg doesn't have an incline, but the trainer is the one where you pull on the incline against your body weight.

Honestly, I think both of them would work great (I have the erg.)

The erg has a slight slope as well, though not as steep as the trainer. It's a very small slope. Embarrassingly small.

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I know what you mean by the bouncing of the bump stop.
I *think* its due to our poor technique ie not maintaining a contant pull between strokes (glide?) so we slide backwards until the next pull...which is weak and doesnt move us up the rail very far....then we slide back...
ho hum......... :(
I might never would have realised this without using the trainer.

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Dont complain about the results you did n't get from the training you did n't do.

I'm considering purchasing a vasa erg because I just can't make it to the pool more than 3x a week. I'm hoping to do 3 vasa workouts in the comforts of my home due to time crunch. I'm already using stretch cords, but would like to have something more sturdy without having to stand up and hunch over. Are there any specific vasa workouts you recommend (continous, intervals, ...)? Does the vasa come with paddles or just cable grips?

It comes with recommended workouts. Although to be honest, you will likely find that for a good 2 months, all you will probably do if is do some continuous moderate effort intervals on it while your arms get toasted - you won't be able to handle much more than that for awhile. Again, I focused less on the workouts themselves than the volume, and tossed in intensity when I felt recovered enough to crank it up. Not complicated at all, but you gotta work hard enough to feel the arm beatdown.

Thanks! I'm actually looking forward to the arm beatdown because it will help with my strength and muscle endurance, so I can get more efficient and feel fresher coming out of the water.

$2000?!??!! Even $1000 for the cheap version. WOW.

I find it funny that she wears her swim suit while on the machine. It makes sense why, especially if you have mirror to watch elbow and form. Still found it funny.

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_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

It's the computrainer for swimming! Gadgets cost money. I'm looking at getting a used one.

Yeah, it's expensive. But it's rock solid, and maintenance-free.

As expensive as it is, it's downright cheap compared to carbon race wheels, and not even comparable compared to indoor water-based swimming options like and endless pool.

Who knows - if they get popular (doubt it), the price might come down like powertaps.

As is, I think this is a potentially huge market for some enterprising individual who could develop a more compact but effective training version for $500-700 range. I know folks will start talking about the resistance cord route, but honestly, I've tried it, and it's not a good long-term solution for swimming replacement, although I'll also admit I've never had a dedicated bench + cord setup to compare with the Vasa.

Whoa!!! I need a lot of help on the swim but I think I'll try to get to the pool and use cords instead. Now maybe $500-$700 I could be interested...

The Halo Swim Bench is highly recommended by Sheila T, w/ the complete bench priced at $444.00 and the "converts any bench" system at $149.00. See: http://lanegainer.com/...o-Swim-Training.html

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

The Vasa Trainer now can be purchased with ANT+ capabilities. Makes moving your workout to your on-line training site easier.

Don't know if any slowtwitchers have tried the new Swimfast Erg but you can purchased a Halo Swim Trainer Template for $95. Their ergometer costs about the same as the Vasa $2,000. http://www.kayakpro.com/...st/index.php#explore

I really want to hear from folks that have used both.

I haven't used either the Vasa or the Kayakpro Swimfast erg or the Halo Swim Bench that I mentioned, but I have heard great things about them, espec from lightheir who has improved his swimming dramatically by using the Vasa. Personally, I really enjoy the actual in-the-water experience of swimming itself so I prob won't buy any of these:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

 
If you look for my posts on this subject you will see I have been pleased with my results.
It is now since July 2014 I received my vasa erg, placed next to my CT, and TM. My results speak for themselves. I have not been in a pool for 9 months and don't see any need to now. In the past 5 weeks I have competed in hard in sprint and OD events. My swim placing before vasa would put me asa MOP, now I am In the front pack. Now not as good as school or college swimmer, but then I am a runner and I I need to do is be close on the swim , closer on the bike as I do anyway moving up the field and then I just move up again in the run. By the end on a local level and state level I podium and national level I'm in the 10%. Not higher because I was hit by a car on the bike that has affected my run by as much as 10-20% and so too on the bike.
But back to vasa. Over the past months using vasa I have followed the same training I use successfully for running. 2xcv pace/ css swimming sessions always followed by easy. The Saturday is a SBR brick session at race pace, sunday day off when not a race weekend. All sessions sre 30 mins. And everyday.
Yes the technique is a compromise and so is my running now. It works.
Fyi pre vasa 70.3 swim 37 now 31
Pre vasa OD swim 29 now 25
Pre vasa sprint 15 now 11:xx
My finish times now for 70.3 are ~ 4:30, OD ~ 2:03, sprint ~ 63 mins.

Some love going to the pool, some can't get to a pool. I'm the later. I love running and cycling too outdoors but to get faster requires consistency. Being in the garage brings consistency and results. I won. My local sprint series, I lead the points of the state series only to lose on a count back for best performance, and on a national level I'm third on points. I have a ticket to the world duathlons and worlds AG Olympic diet in Chicago. And I hope in the next 6 months I qualify for world 70.3. All in one year of being hit by a bloody careless driver who doesn't know it but empowered me to stand up and get back on my feet to go just as fast before the accident.

As for training on the vasa, I found swim smooth training program adapting it to the vasa works well. Rather like my CT you get to a level by watching the numbers. HR, Watts, stroke, time, etc. I do the same for e Nike for being on the vasa. Having the power meter on the vasa is my way just like for the bike to check my progress and be keep in check not over doing it. I then log this into training peaks.

AussiemikeinSD

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age is just a number after your name

Right Mike, I know you are an enthusiastic Vasa devotee also!!! Actually, you and lightheir have me half-way thinking about getting one myself, just to see if it would help as supplemental swim-specific strength training. OTOH, as I've said many times, I just love the physical sensation of being in the water, so not sure if i can justify the expense. But keep up the great work, it is obv that you've improved a lot via the Vasa!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I bought my ERG at the end of last season, but was then sidelined (until this last week) so haven't had much chance to use it. I'm in the boat of "love to swim, but nearest pool can be a 2hr commute all told at rush hour times, which just kills compared to "walk into my garage and go."

That said, I did 10 minutes yesterday (first time) and can barely move my arms today. I can't see how I'll ever be doing 30+ minutes ;)

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

I pulled the trigger on the Vasa Erg. Looking forward to using it the days I don't swim in the pool. Plan to swim 3x/wk in the pool and 3x on the Vasa. It's great to have all I need in the house: TM, indoor trainer w/PT & TR, and a Vasa. No excuses to miss a workout.

If you need any excuses to miss a workout let me know. I seem to be very very good at them lately. :/

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_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

I picked up a Vasa in mid-January after not doing any form of swimming for 4 months. I still have yet to get in the water but for the past three months I've been swimming on the Vasa 3x/week for roughly 2500m/session. I'll pick up the training in two weeks after I take a licensing exam I've been studying for.

Vasa's website says door 1 is like swimming with a current and door 7 is like swimming against one. I was never a swim stud but perhaps my swim layoff has hurt me more than I anticipated. I just switched my main sets to door 2 and I feel like I'm wearing paddles. I'd be curious to get others' opinions on this - on what door do you feel like Vasa swimming equals pool/OW times? Do your stroke rates line up as well? I realize that a 1:30 pace on the Vasa (any door) will yield different swim times for different swimmers because of a change in drag from person to person. I'm just trying to get a rough feel.

Right or wrong I've done a 500m test in door 1 every few weeks since getting the Vasa. I'll have to move to door 2 as I'm reaching the limits of my turnover. Here's my progression thus far.
Feb 04: 8:58 (1:48/100)
Feb 20: 8:15 (1:39/100)
Mar 10: 8:02 (1:36/100)
Mar 25: 7:45 (1:33/100)

I've got an olympic next weekend. I'll report back on how it goes.

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Ya, keep us updated on your progress!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Yeah, please do let us know. Very interested also!

Also interested to hear how this goes for you. Hopefully well :)

Results are in from yesterday's race. Unfortunately it's not as cut and dry as I had hoped but I think I can draw some meaningful conclusions. By all accounts the swim was long thanks to what felt like a last minute course change. A friend who consistently swims 30 minutes in a HIM expected to swim ~23 yesterday but swam 27:20; his watch read 1760m. The male 25-44 podiums had swimmers at a 1:50 to 2:10 pace versus last year where they were 1:30 to 1:50 per 100m. The waters were calmer this year compared to last.

Those are all my excuses for why I was about 2:30 slower this year (30:35 versus 33:07). Also I swallowed a bit of seawater.

Some notes. My navigation felt about as mediocre as usual. Stroke mechanics and form felt awkward, like I had no feel for the water. Unsurprising after staying dry for 7 months. Recalculating my pace using 1760m gives me a 1:53 pace which is not too far off what I realistically expected. After my exam this Friday I'll ramp up to 4x Vasa and one OWS/pool session a week and see how that goes.

Not that anyone cares but even with that swim I managed to snag 3rd place in my AG with a 1:05 bike on chip seal and a 40:50 run.

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I picked up a Vasa Trainer last November. Prior to getting the Vasa Trainer my 100m times in the pool were 1:45/100m at a max effort pace. Now that I have been using the Vasa Trainer I am swimming 1:24 - 1:28/100m in the pool for my entire workout and my goal this season is to improve to 1:20 - 1:22/100m.

Two things I did in addition to using the Vasa was I still hit the pool once a week to truely practice swim form and second was I watch swim training videos to make sure I have good freestyle technique.

What was the overall fastest swimmer's split??? I've found the speed of the very fastest guy/girl to be a pretty good indicator of swim length. I always evaluate my splits for all 3 legs relative to what the very fastest person did.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

ericmulk wrote:

What was the overall fastest swimmer's split??? I've found the speed of the very fastest guy/girl to be a pretty good indicator of swim length. I always evaluate my splits for all 3 legs relative to what the very fastest person did.

Very true, it's all relative. Local pro Balazs Csoke swam 21:14 (1:25 pace) in the invitational wave.

https://www.nolimitstiming.com/...ult.aspx?event=32726

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The 3rd overall male, Aaron Thomas, posts on ST as ajthomas. IIRC, he swims around 19:30 for 1500 scm in the pool, or about 20:30 to 21:00 for a full 1500m in OW, i.e. you're always slower in OW due to the loss of those 60 turns. AJ went 22:37 in your race, so the swim was definitely long, maybe by around 100-125 m. Indeed, looking at those swim results, this was one of the longest oly dist swims i've ever seen. Where is this race??? I might have to try to do it next year:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I have been trying to fix my pull, and I think on the ST forums I saw something about EVF, which led me over here to this. Read a lot of this thread, watched Sun Yang swim, went to eBay and bought a used Vasa Erg.

Cant wait til I get back from the Boston Marathon to start destroying/rebuilding my shoulders into pulling machines so I get get off being a 2:00/100scy swimmer.

I will definitely share my experiences, as reading through this thread helped me pull the trigger (well that and the very low cost).

Congrats on your results, even if the swim wasn't as good as you'd hoped.

Honestly, it'll probably take everyone (including me) SOME pool or OWS time, even if it's only a few sessions before race day, just to reacclimate. I'd view your results as pretty darn good for someone who literally hasn't been in the water for months before the race!

I can confidently say that I would get just as good results in racing/training as my current ones if I only swam in the pool once for 30 minutes every 3 weeks with Vasa training, but I'm not sure how well it would go if I went any less than that.

I suspect you'll get excellent results with 4x Vasa + 1 pool per week - I'm actually right now doing 3x Vasa and 1-2 pool (30 mins max) per week since I'm back to balanced biking/run training and not swim focus, and it's working well. I'm not as fast as I was compared to my peak of swim-focus training, but I'm still much faster than I was pre-Vasa - it seems that once you make gains, it takes much less to maintain it than to gain it (probably true for bike/run as well.)

Also, just a reminder as well - it's gotta be hard at some point to improve - I can't always pull hard on the Vasa, but I made my gains during a swim block where I was pushing the volume, and then intensity on the vasa. No surprise here, but it's def true that it's a tool that requires hard work for the payoff (same as the pool.)

Good to have another reliable data point, thanks for that.

The race is in Kemah, TX. They ship you out into the bay and you jump off and swim back to shore. It's been a straight shot in the past but for some reason this year we had to swim maybe 100-200 meters to the first buoy before turning right to shore. I didn't know about this until 30 seconds before jumping off the boat so I don't know if it was originally planned. The water is brackish with zero visibility so I don't think it qualifies as a destination race. However, come on out if you love some quality chip seal on the bike.

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Kemah makes sense since AJ lives in the Houston area:) It's just very rare IME to have the fastest swim time at 21 min; out of the roughly 60 or 70 oly dist races i've done, maybe 3 had a swim that long or longer, but in the vast majority the fastest swimmer will come out around 16-17 min, which IMO means the course was prob 100-200 m short. Being a swimmer, i tend to like the longer swims:)

JOOC, at this time of year and in the bay/ocean, was it wetsuit legal or no???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

You want a long Olympic swim? Here's one for you: http://www.altavistasports.com/...lLONGtri05172014.htm

It's an admittedly small race, but the fastest swim time that day for "1500 meters" was 35:02 from a guy that has a history of 22-23 minute Olympic swims and a sub 1 hour IM swim. The distance was probably roughly accurate, but it was an ocean swim and that day there was adverse wind and a longshore current pushing down from the swim finish to start which made a ton of chop and rough waves. Sounds like your kind of race :)

Ya, it does sound like my kind of race. I did one similar to that down in Jacksonville, FL, a few yrs back and I was first out of the water in 30:XX. Had the police escort for the first 15 mi of the bike, and ended up 2nd overall. Only time in 110 races where I was first out of the water. One of my fav tri memories:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

E I am faster than 19:30 in a 1500m in a pool! I swam a 3000 straight with a descend and was like 19:20 over the last 1500. I have gone under 19 in a pool in practice twice in the last 4 years.

That swim was long because we were being sent out to seas by the current. The boat dropped anchor and we floated back for 10 minutes until it caught. It was not by design! Funny enough, I thought about you, Eric, on the bike because I had it at 1.06 miles (1700 meters or so ) and I thought, man this is ericmulks kind of race.

Wow, sorry that i under-estimated your 1500!!! I am honored that you thought of me when you were on the bike:) Have you done that race before??? Does it usually have a long-ish swim???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Wetsuit legal. Water temperature was reported to be 72 degrees.



I did it last year and I don't remember distances being long though I don't own a gps watch. Times were definitely a fair bit faster though I don't know if the currents in that bay flip with tides or if it has a consistent current.



So you're saying we had a longer swim against current? Good to hear. Congrats on your race.

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I just received my Erg yesterday. I'll be putting it together today and give it a try. I swim in the pool 3x/week and will be using the Erg 3x/week. I found these videos helpful for learning EVF and why.

Vasa videos
https://www.youtube.com/...t=PL9A2987B8115A939E


Race Club
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9oEj8nOffk

The swim has typically been long because the captain always drops anchor at 1500M. It was particularly long this year. I didn't wear a wetsuit last year and went 21:22. With a wetsuit this year I went a 22:36. Sub 20 has only been achieved once and plenty of sub 17 1500 swimmers have given it a shot.

Wow, now that's a long oly swim, cool:)

JOOC, since this is actually a Vasa thread, I've never heard you opine on these trainers. Ever use one much??? I've never used one myself.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Put together the Erg yesterday. It is a bit longer than I thought it would be, so it takes up about a 10ft x 4ft area. Gave it a try this morning just to see how it felt. I did a 400m on door 2 and my lats were screaming by the end. Hitting the pool tomorrow, alternating vasa and pool days.

I just got mine in the house and assembled yesterday. The prior user must have only used it to store clothes, it is brand new.

Now to set baselines and get to work. Any suggestions on what I could use for my baseline testing on this tank, let me know :)

I'm primarily using the VASA for strength work and recovery/easy sessions. It's great to be able to knock out a workout in 10-20min without having to change and leave the house. No problem squeezing in a workout. Endurance work is in the pool.

mine will supplement swim workouts too, probably twice a week in water (pool & open water) and then as much as I can on the vasa

Use the same protocol for running and swimming

Do a swim smooth css swim test

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age is just a number after your name

Thought this was interesting myself and to share to those newbies.
History: starting using the vasa ergo at july working on building up to door setting 7. Prior to this no swimming in a pool for 18mth. In the past 10 mths no pool swimming only time I touch the water was in a race. Now nearly a year later back to the vasa to build for the next 70.3 season, so I will have some residue base from my just gone season with the first race in Sept. This time I am aiming for the 70.3 world qualifier on a podium, not on a roll down slot. No training plan purchased or the build phase which is currently 1 week old and 4 weeks since my last OD race during which it has been run/bike. Now serious AeT zone 2 work for 3 weeks till I get to 16 weeks out from A race, then I will buy into Dave Scotts training peaks plan for the build peak taper advance 15hr week. All my vasa AeT work will be accordingly to race distance in this case 2187y, the bike 2.5hrs, the run 90mins all in AeT zone 2 for another 2weeks.


Today: 2187y 36:55mins 1:41/100m Pw:Hr 63.7% 58watts 91aveHr (max108) 42spm... compared to Monday's 1st session
.....2187y 40:16........1:45/100y........... 65% 54w 83Hr


The reason in sharing this is for those newbies starting out is will take several months to build up to door setting 7. Through my reading with Maffatone, Joe Friel, Alan Couzans, et al lots of qulaity consistent AeT will pay off when it come to the peak period in the plan.


Anyway I though it was interesting.

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age is just a number after your name

Just a quick update. So I've been using the Vasa Erg fairly consistently for the past 3 weeks. 3 days(Mon, Wed, Fri) in the pool for 2-3k. and 3 days on the Vasa(Tue, Thur, Sat) for about 1k(5min warmup & cooldown with 1-2min strength intervals on Door#4). I'm a slow swimmer and usually swim HIM in 35 min and IM in 130 min. In the pool I am 1:50-1:55/100m. I've seen some noticeable improvement in the past few weeks. I can now swim 1:40-1:45/100m. I do notice that my left side gets more fatigued than my right on the Vasa, so I have a muscle imbalance I need to work on. So far it has been great. If I miss a pool session, then I just do intervals on the Vasa.

I got my Vasa in, and am working on getting it into my routine (just brought a coach into the mix). Setting all my baselines now, have gotten some time on the Vasa on door 1.5 (I was messing around with it, left it in that position, havent moved it). It is friggin hard, mostly because I am lacking the strength needed to properly do an EVF. Baseline 500 in the pool today, so I will have a starting point.

I also realize how good of a deal I got on this, I got it off ebay for $500, did have to ship it, but still way way less than the cost of a new one, and this thing is pretty much brand new.

I got a new ANT+ Vasa recently. It appears to be significantly harder to "propel" oneself on this device than in the water. I do notice the lack of body rotation while using the VASA but is this important compared to strengthening? I keep the work intervals short.

I am curious about the ANT+ part, how does that work?

The ANT+ is installed in the headunit. This means you can use your ANT+ monitor (Garmin or other) to record the data and upload it to your training log.

Does it give splits etc? Can I see a link of what data is uploaded? I am interested, but its not free to upgrade, so want to make sure I spend wisely!

You have to put your Garmin in bike mode and attach the erg as an ANT+ power meter. If you wear a HR strap, you'll also get HR data. The only manual thing you have to do is edit the file in Garmin Connect (or TP/Strava) to change the activity type from bike to swim. Note: in Strava, this renders you unable to see power data, so it's not as useful a tool for this purpose.

Here's my session from last night: https://connect.garmin.com/...n/activity/768156719

Note that I really need to work on my L/R power imbalance. Some of it is mobility related, but some I can address with single-arm work. This is partly what makes the Vasa such a great training tool - I'm really glad I upgraded to the ANT+ computer.

Ian