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Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater
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First chapter from a serie that me and my team mates are going to do.



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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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It's a nice video and it does a great job in explaining most of the important stuff!
Minor detail but the only thing I don't agree with is the focus on the pulling with the palm of the hand and that bend in the wrist. I find that focusing too much on that introduces unnecessary tension in the entire arm and it's energy wasted. I prefer to keep the hand relaxed and one way of achieving that is to avoid cupping the hand and to keep those fingers slightly separated in their natural configuration. You won't lose any power in the pull and you'll save energy which is otherwise lost because it does not contribute to forward propulsion. As an experiment, try rotating your arm with a clenched fist and notice how that feels compared to when you keep your hand relaxed. Tension in the hand usually extends all the way up and your entire arm becomes stiff.

One of my coaches used to make this weird analogy to swimming like an amputee ;) i.e. basically ignore everything below the elbow.
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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Gary Hall Sr does a better job explaining this stuff (albeit in english).

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Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [realAlbertan] [ In reply to ]
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realAlbertan wrote:
Gary Hall Sr does a better job explaining this stuff (albeit in english).


X2.

DFL > DNF > DNS
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [SallyShortyPnts] [ In reply to ]
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SallyShortyPnts wrote:
realAlbertan wrote:
Gary Hall Sr does a better job explaining this stuff (albeit in english).


X2.

Of course, Gary Hall Sr. is one of the greatest trainers and his son was a reference for me.
I don't pretend to get compared with them, I just want to help beginners to swim better, that's my goal.

Thanks for comments.

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [SallyShortyPnts] [ In reply to ]
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He is a great host. Been to his old place twice.

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry - deleeeeeted.

:)

Ps that pool stroke sucks in OW.

XX
Last edited by: Salmon Steve: Nov 13, 13 1:14
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [Salmon Steve] [ In reply to ]
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Salmon Steve wrote:

Sorry - deleeeeeted.

:)

Ps that pool stroke sucks in OW.

XX

Excuse me, which is your best time in... i.e. 1500m ?

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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JuanjoNTP wrote:
Salmon Steve wrote:


Sorry - deleeeeeted.

:)

Ps that pool stroke sucks in OW.

XX


Excuse me, which is your best time in... i.e. 1500m ?

I kind of agree though I might have put it more delicately. Front quadrant with a glide doesn't translate well in a more turbulent (than a pool) environment.

Steve's wife is a 3 x Olympian since you asked.
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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ajthomas wrote:
JuanjoNTP wrote:
Salmon Steve wrote:


Sorry - deleeeeeted.

:)

Ps that pool stroke sucks in OW.

XX


Excuse me, which is your best time in... i.e. 1500m ?


I kind of agree though I might have put it more delicately. Front quadrant with a glide doesn't translate well in a more turbulent (than a pool) environment.

Steve's wife is a 3 x Olympian since you asked.




I liked the video and think that the key concepts make for an easy transition to open water swimming where you can just rotate a touch less and turnover a little faster...my key take away if I am looking at this is the timing of the shoulder rotation...

I see a lot of people fall behind at least on one side of there stoke (ususally the side they don't breath to as well)...The shoulder isn't getting up and foward far enough in the recovery before they start there catch/pull with the lead arm...

It is pretty tough to catch and get into a high elbow pull if you recovery arm shoulder is back behind the stroke...leaves you 2 options...push down or or pull into a negative/stretched shoulder angle....neither of which are good...

as stated above though I am not a big fan of the cupped catch...I try to focus on feeling water and using the timing and rhythm of my stroke to catch the water and move into a high elbow pull....


I feel like I natually rotate a little less and ride that front/lead arm less with the shoulder down (lead arm out) when I pick up the tempo and turnover a little...

I can naturally just let my shoulders move toghether instead of hanging onto that catch-up feel...
Last edited by: Big: Nov 13, 13 9:34
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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JuanjoNTP wrote:
Salmon Steve wrote:


Sorry - deleeeeeted.

:)

Ps that pool stroke sucks in OW.

XX


Excuse me, which is your best time in... i.e. 1500m ?

He is qualified to make that assessment. Unfortunately he's kinda right, and I say this as someone with a pool-stroke---I end up being slower in OW (relative to my competitors) than I am in the pool . A higher SR (which may result in a somewhat choppy-looking stroke) ends up being faster in open-water. It's like gearing down in a car, or easing the sheet out a bit on the sailboat when going through a rough patch of water/air. It's just a bit "torque'ier" and lets you reaccelerate faster after having been slowed down by a wave than when you're tuned for high-end speed. I have a sneaking suspicion the same approach applies to bicycling as well on rough roads, but I don't have enough evidence to confirm it.

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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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ajthomas wrote:
JuanjoNTP wrote:
Salmon Steve wrote:


Sorry - deleeeeeted.

:)

Ps that pool stroke sucks in OW.

XX


Excuse me, which is your best time in... i.e. 1500m ?

I kind of agree though I might have put it more delicately. Front quadrant with a glide doesn't translate well in a more turbulent (than a pool) environment.

Steve's wife is a 3 x Olympian since you asked.

Good to know... :-)
I have friends with Olympics and world championship medals and just being olimpic as Steve's wife is a great honor.

That don't allows him to say that my stroke sucks. Respect.

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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JuanjoNTP wrote:

That don't allows him to say that my stroke sucks. Respect.

Your reading comprehension is as bad as your temper. He said your stroke sucks in open water, and there is quite a bit of agreement. It may be great in the pool, not so much in open water.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone want to point to a video of a good OW stroke?
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com


Is this the 'real' Ironman-Finisher? Holdy smoke pleased to be making your acquaintance fine sire! An real irondman finisher! I think your stroking is amazing and I totally have respects. Keep it real dawg, stay true to da streets yo.
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [dogmile] [ In reply to ]
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dogmile wrote:
Anyone want to point to a video of a good OW stroke?

I'd love to see a video also. I'm a really bad swimmer and I've decided I'm going to work really hard on my technique in hopes of a massive improvement in the next 12 months.
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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I apologise if you mis-read my post...I was commenting about your stroke not you. Just so we're quite clear.

To add a little more to what I posted, I've seen so many people with beautiful pool strokes just like yours (you do have lovely glide, rotation...list goes on) but a lot of those same people struggle in open water as they're unable to deconstruct their stroke and put it back together to suit the conditions on the day which aren't following a black line up and down in a pool. As some have mentioned, the most obvious is that lingering glide & slow turnover, you'd get knocked all over the show in chop.

I don't have a video here at work of what a good OW stroke looks like, lots at home but not back there until the weekend now.

Try searching Gerry Rodrigues out on the interweb - he has some of the best knowledge there is on OW. If you can find footage of Cory Hutchings from down these parts he was pretty spectacular too.

Again apologies for offending you.
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [Salmon Steve] [ In reply to ]
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Salmon Steve wrote:
I apologise if you mis-read my post...I was commenting about your stroke not you. Just so we're quite clear.

To add a little more to what I posted, I've seen so many people with beautiful pool strokes just like yours (you do have lovely glide, rotation...list goes on) but a lot of those same people struggle in open water as they're unable to deconstruct their stroke and put it back together to suit the conditions on the day which aren't following a black line up and down in a pool. As some have mentioned, the most obvious is that lingering glide & slow turnover, you'd get knocked all over the show in chop.

I don't have a video here at work of what a good OW stroke looks like, lots at home but not back there until the weekend now.

Try searching Gerry Rodrigues out on the interweb - he has some of the best knowledge there is on OW. If you can find footage of Cory Hutchings from down these parts he was pretty spectacular too.

Again apologies for offending you.

I'm sorry Steve, it is understood.
It's been a miss understanding by my side, I know my English is so and so... I'm still improving it.

You have to know that I've been swimming all my live, now I'm 37.
I'm from Spain, and I've been also at my national team (not Olympic) many times, so I think that I know swimming and its tips a bit.

Knowadays I swim OW and I do triathlons, IM, etc.
I know by hart how to adapt swimming stroke in OW.

By the other hand I did this video because know I have friends from many different places, and they are beginners (ages from 30-40) so the need clear messages to begin to have a certain safety while swimming, so I just want to help them with some simple topics to make them feel more confortable.( first in the pool, and later in OW)
This is the goal of my video, and I put it here because if anybody else can take any profit from it, I'd be happy.

Thanks you all for comments .

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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We will do a special chapter in OW.

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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I wish i could help one beginner at least.
That would be great for me.

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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Perseus wrote:
dogmile wrote:
Anyone want to point to a video of a good OW stroke?

I'd love to see a video also. I'm a really bad swimmer and I've decided I'm going to work really hard on my technique in hopes of a massive improvement in the next 12 months.

Go for it!!
The time you invest in technique is better than just swimming a big amount of miles.

You'll get better result and you will improve your speed and your breath as well to begin bike sector in better conditions.

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [dogmile] [ In reply to ]
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That would be great also!

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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The video is great, thanks for the tips.......keep them coming!

Don't get suck into the slowtwitch snobby "I'm the best" bs....thanks again.
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [Beachboy] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for your comments!! :-)

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [Salmon Steve] [ In reply to ]
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Salmon Steve wrote:

I apologise if you mis-read my post...I was commenting about your stroke not you. Just so we're quite clear.

To add a little more to what I posted, I've seen so many people with beautiful pool strokes just like yours (you do have lovely glide, rotation...list goes on) but a lot of those same people struggle in open water as they're unable to deconstruct their stroke and put it back together to suit the conditions on the day which aren't following a black line up and down in a pool. As some have mentioned, the most obvious is that lingering glide & slow turnover, you'd get knocked all over the show in chop.


Again apologies for offending you.

I think that's the key clarification. There isn't a "open water stroke" vs a "pool stroke", but better swimmers do adjust there stroke to match the conditions they swim in. If the water is smooth, the stroke in the video is just fine, but if there is chop or current or waves then it helps to change your stroke and tempo to match the conditions.

Badig| Strava


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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [tjfry] [ In reply to ]
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Ky Hurst has a 'pretty' stroke and he's not bad at open water swimming. Some top ow swimmers seem to 'get away' with their 'pretty' 'pool' strokes in open water.
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [tjfry] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with you.

I've been swimming all my live, nowadays I prefer OW swimming, and I have many friends that are beginning to do some triathlon and they've never swam before, so I thought I can help them with these sort of videos with little tips.

Of course you have to adapt your stroke depending on the conditions of the water.
We will do many other videos with technique exercises (mainly to be done in winter time) and we'll also do some in OW at the beach of Barcelona. In fact, I have some done already, but we thought that it should be better to fix the main issues before going out to open sea.

What do think about this? Could this help them?
Thanks for your comments, and please forget my missunderstanding. :-)

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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The second chapter's coming soon...

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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I think it's an excellent video, explaining the basics of proper freestyle swimming which is very well illustrated by this video footage!
Since most people learn to swim in a pool, it's quite obvious to demonstrate the technical aspects the way you did. Wether this style of swimming is suitable for open water swims, I don't know. That might depend of the type of ows (ocean vs lakes, whatever). But it's annoying that some people apparently feel the urge to give some totally irrelevant comments upon your video and probably like to show their superiority by 'name dropping'.
Anyway...I 'll put the link to the dutch triathlon forum, because to my opinion it answers a lot of the questions among those members about freestyle swimming.
So keep up the good work and I 'm looking forward to see the next video!
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [Ynsnits] [ In reply to ]
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Ynsnits wrote:
I think it's an excellent video, explaining the basics of proper freestyle swimming which is very well illustrated by this video footage!
Since most people learn to swim in a pool, it's quite obvious to demonstrate the technical aspects the way you did. Wether this style of swimming is suitable for open water swims, I don't know. That might depend of the type of ows (ocean vs lakes, whatever). But it's annoying that some people apparently feel the urge to give some totally irrelevant comments upon your video and probably like to show their superiority by 'name dropping'.
Anyway...I 'll put the link to the dutch triathlon forum, because to my opinion it answers a lot of the questions among those members about freestyle swimming.
So keep up the good work and I 'm looking forward to see the next video!

Thank you very much for your comments!!
:-)
Thank you so much for linking it to the Dutch forum!! Awesome!!

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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Perseus wrote:
dogmile wrote:
Anyone want to point to a video of a good OW stroke?

I'd love to see a video also. I'm a really bad swimmer and I've decided I'm going to work really hard on my technique in hopes of a massive improvement in the next 12 months.


We will do at least 2 videos for OW swimming. ;-)

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [tjfry] [ In reply to ]
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It is true... We just want to point out some little Key Points for beginners.

Soon we'll have the second video!!

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [sp1ke] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for your comments.
We will do a video explaining what your coach suggests. ;-)
This was just a little chapter.

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [dogmile] [ In reply to ]
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dogmile wrote:
Anyone want to point to a video of a good OW stroke?


Chris Lieto has a pretty "pool" stroke that works well in pool or OW, and he adapts it well. I've had a chance to see him race in person (Keauhou Lavaman last november) and his stroke was the prettiest of all, and he came out of the water 5 feet behind the leader, only because he overswam the last buoy over a course rope getting tangled up in it. I could watch Chris swim all day!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF-861eqego


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDBQWbPlkrk

Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Steel City Endurance Coaching


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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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I think they "get away with it" because they also tend to have stronger kicks. For instance, if you watch ITU swims, a lot of the top male swimmers do swim with a front-quadrant stroke and a SR closer to what you'd expect out of a pool swimmer, but they also tend to kick 6bt and HARD. There has really been a shift in the last few years away from saving the legs during the swim, and using a strong kick. Rather than looking at WTS draft-legal racing as a waiting game wherein the swim is pass/fail, the bike is pass/fail and the run is where the grade is given, the swim is now looking more and more like an investment. Burning an extra match or two there in turn offers a faster bike pack, and the opportunity to start the run ahead.

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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [ZackCapets] [ In reply to ]
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Jodie Swallow has a wonderful open water-specific stroke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiNkAMU8syI

Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [Big] [ In reply to ]
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Of course to feel the water is also important for swimming.
This video just wanted to point out some concepts for beginners. It is quite a bit like driving, when you start driving at 16 you focus on the gas, brake and so one, and then you interiorize it and many months later you are able to drive without thinking.

Thank you so much for your comments.

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you!!
Next's coming soon!!

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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JuanjoNTP wrote:

Excuse me, which is your best time in... i.e. 1500m ?

Just curious about you your own swimming background since brought it up.
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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I just put the high elbow technique to use this morning. I've always swum crawl like I was climbing a rope, hands close to the centerline with a cupping motion to grab the water during my catch. With my corrected stroke I shaved 7-10 seconds per 100m bringing my pace down to 1:50-53. My heart rate remained the same at about 118 bpm. It felt really awkward, but I'm sure that will pass with practice. Thanks for the vid!
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [Beachboy] [ In reply to ]
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Beachboy wrote:
The video is great, thanks for the tips.......keep them coming!

Don't get suck into the slowtwitch snobby "I'm the best" bs....thanks again.

One week for the second chapter!!

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [Ynsnits] [ In reply to ]
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Next video's coming this week!!

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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fulla wrote:
Ky Hurst has a 'pretty' stroke and he's not bad at open water swimming. Some top ow swimmers seem to 'get away' with their 'pretty' 'pool' strokes in open water.

My friend Damián Blaum (OW World Champion 2013) has a nice stroke also. I'm lucky because I swam with him and his wife Esther Nuñez (OW World Champion 2012) many times.

These people seem to fly!!

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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In very few weeks we'll post many other videos about swimming tips...

Subscrive to our channel: NOTEPARES TV

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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based on the first 30 seconds it looks like a slow catch-up stroke?
I had major issues with the opposite- my breathing was late, thus when i turned to the right to breathe, my left arm was pushing water down and i would over-rotate. Since then i have learned to sort of 3/4 catch up which has removed my straight left arm pointing to the bottom of the pool. When i breathe to my right i now sort of follow my right arm moving back while leaving my left hand extended out front.
In the video it looks sort of similar but the swimmer tends to leave their opposite arm out for longer than i do. Again, more 'catch-up' than i do. Im guessing this is what is called front quadrant?
my pool times were 1:47 per 100 at best with my old stroke with the over-rotation, scissor kick, one arm pushing water down etc. With a sort of 3/4 catch up type of stroke (less 'vicious' than the swimmer in the video though) my times have gone down to low 1:40's with ease, less effort and 4 fewer strokes per pool length. I havent tested this in the ocean yet though!
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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Massive elbow drop
Catch up stroke

Get rid of both of those.
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [Salmon Steve] [ In reply to ]
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I'll chime in to disagree with your statement. There isn't a one size fits all stroke for open water. The winner of the 10k open water at the London Olympics, Ous Melloui, has what you would say is pool stroke that sucks for open water. He also won a bronze in the 1500m at the same Olympics and a gold in 2008 in the 1500m. The silver medal winner, Thomas Lutz, had a higher turnover, front quadrant stroke and does not compete in the pool. It takes an experienced coach to figure out which works best for each swimmer. Just a little FYI...

Best regards,

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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Great reference re: Mellouli. The stroke here is pretty darn solid, and better than what 90 percent of all triathletes bring to the water. This is clearly not race pace swimming/tempo, as is true of the demo swimming in nearly all instructional videos. As this swimmer picks up the tempo there will be a loss in the amount of overlap/catch up quality in the stroke (pretty much inevitable.) In the stable pool environment, where we can truly verify the effectiveness of stroke mechanics, the windmill swimmer is a dying breed in all but the shortest of evens (50, maybe 100 meters.) I suspect the "fact" that some believe abandoning proven effective mechanics for windmilling is more a "feeling" than quantifiable fact. I would develop your best swimming skills in the pool, where you can control far more variables and truly arrive at what is best, then adjust that as little as possible to navigate open water conditions. I prefer to think of open water swimming as playing tennis on various surfaces. Yes, you adjust your game, and some performers will handle some conditions better than others. But you don't use a "totally different" skill set. You use a slightly modified one, when called for. Maybe Melllouli won the London 10K swim because the water conditions were about as pool-like as you could get for open water competition. Had it been in swells he may not have been as successful. I would be interested in knowing if Mellouli would have altered his mechanics/strategy under harsher conditions. Mellouli. Not Rodrigues, or Laughlin, or Newsome.
In terms of selecting the appropriate balance of stroke length and tempo, there is really an inescapably simple math equation: Velocity = Distance X Rate. "Turning it over" is no better a strategy than "long strokes" when considered in isolation. It is the combination of the two that creates velocity. What makes swimming challenging is that adding more tempo generally means sacrificing distance per stroke. The key is to optimize their relationship in a way that is sustainable for long swims. In a pool that might mean 40 strokes per 50 meter pool at a frequency of 65 strokes per minute. That would give the swimmer a pure surface swimming time (not counting push off) of 36.9 seconds. If you increase the tempo to 70 strokes per minute but end up taking 43 strokes, you're essentially swimming at the same speed (36.8 seconds), but likely at a higher level of exertion. Wast that .1 of a second worth the additional heart beats? I know several triathletes who have bought into the "tempo is everything" philosophy who take upwards of 60-75 strokes per 50 meter pool length. They are spinning in an absurdly small gear. And they have essentially maxed out of "even more tempo" as a strategy to get faster. Their "R" is about as high as it can go. The only realistic strategy to swim fasters is develop better mechanics that support improved distance per stroke without catastrophically lowering their tempo. It never ceases to amaze me how developing distance per stroke is mocked as "gliding" in this forum. There are tons of things that allow a swimmer to travel farther on each stroke: reduced drag, better catch/leveraging positions, fully integrated and harmonious stroking/body/kicking movements, appropriately timed management of force. Passively jutting your arm out front is not what creates functional stroke length.
I would like to see the swimmer in your video do a set of 25s at progressively faster tempos, up to and beyond his race pace for a specific triathlon distance. That would be pretty interesting, and a better indicator of whether his mechanics hold up under the stress of higher cadence.
Pool swimmers tend to be better in the pool in part because we are so much better getting in and out of the walls--flip turns vs open turns, great streamlining vs poor. I easily gain 1-2 seconds per length over a triathlon swimmer who doesn't have those skills. In open water I lose that advantage, which partially explains why the gap in our performance narrows. It's not that my mechanics are ineffective in open water; it's that my pool specific skills end-to-end don't come into play.
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [StrokeDoctor] [ In reply to ]
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Paragraphs are your friend.

It never ceases to amaze me how developing distance per stroke is mocked as "gliding" in this forum.

Not true. Gliding is mocked as gliding. DPS is good, none of the decent swimmers on here have ever said differently. But there are lots of people who think that gliding is synonymous with improving dps, and is somehow "free speed". It isn't.

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [StrokeDoctor] [ In reply to ]
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Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you but if you feel the stroke in the latest link is good and to be used as an example then we have different opinions on a high elbow and dropped elbow.
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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I was looking at the swimmer in the first video. Serviceable technique. I think there are some important things lost in the dry land demonstration (and I'm willing to cut people a little slack on that--it's difficult to simulate aquatic movement on land, one of the big weaknesses I see in the swim bench machines like Vasa and Halo.) I have filmed and coached easily 1000+ triathletes through clinics, private lessons, masters. Trust me, a very very small percentage of triathletes look anywhere near that skill level. It's not perfect and my intent here is not to analyze this particular swimmer. But the core underlying mechanics are pretty sound for effective swimming. People are welcome to their opinion about whether they would want that stroke in the open water. If you had a triathlon club with 100 athletes from novice to elite I suspect a small percentage would look as good. Less than 20 percent.
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [StrokeDoctor] [ In reply to ]
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Great explanation!!
I'm the swimmer of the video, and I will do what you suggest, pretty interesting!
Thanks for your comments!

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JuanjoNTP (@JuanjoNTP)
http://www.ironman-finisher.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [JuanjoNTP] [ In reply to ]
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Here are a couple of technique adjustments you might consider. I don't think any of them would translate into a huge jump in your performance, but small changes can have a cumulative effect. You might also save a little wear and tear on your deltoids.

1. Around the 10 second mark, you'll see your left elbow making contact with the water at about the same moment your forearm does (maybe a little earlier sometimes.) This could lead to a dropped elbow below the surface, although in your case it doesn't appear to. The same is true on the right if you observe around the 56-58 second mark. I think you salvage that okay and it doesn't really affect your transition into the catch phase. It does for the vast majority of swimmers who do this. It COULD, however, put some unnecessary stress on your deltoid muscles that might cause inflammation or tenderness.

2. Experiment with a more neutral head position. You look significantly forward after each breath, and this exerts a sinking pressure in the back end of the stroke. Swim a series of 25s with number 1 employing your normal head position, then on each length drop your eyes just a little bit. How does each slight adjustment in head position alter your sense of what's happening down the length of your body line? Do your hips/legs feel higher/lower/heavier/lighter? Is your perception of rotation easier/harder/forced/natural? Do you feel that you are increasing or reducing frontal resistance making one choice versus the other? I suspect you'll feel more stable, less resistance, a more natural sense of rotation and lighter/higher legs by dropping to neutral. Some swimmers simply kick more to compensate for this subtle downward pressure, but given the choice between an energy-spending solution and an energy-saving solution, I'd go with the latter. You have a steady, light kick that doesn't appear to be very taxing for you. Adjusting your head position would likely give you the option of using even less kick,which may save you a few heartbeats per minute without any loss in speed. For the less accomplished swimmers you are coaching--and particularly the horribly kick-challenged ones who will show up at your pool--this is a very significant consideration.

3. There are a couple of instances where your stroking arm slides wide during the initial catch / pull phase (51 second mark, left arm) and (2:01 mark, left arm, less exaggerated.) It's interesting that both of these occur as you are breathing, which leads me to believe they are a response to a slight loss of stability/balance as you breathe. That is nearly unavoidable but could probably be minimized by maintaining a lower head position through the breathing action. A common piece of advice is to 'hide one goggle lens' below the surface as you inhale. I try to observe below the surface while my mouth is taking in air above it. Doing that would probably improve stability, reduce the impulse of the stroking arm to compensate, and maybe create a more effective leveraging moment.

Since you are coaching athletes I think it's important that you tinker with these things so you understand them both intellectually and physically. I once worked on staff as part of a very large age group program and in the five years I worked there never once saw the head coaches get in the water. They didn't swim for fitness, or to work/interact with their athletes, or to experiment with new movement patterns. This is far too common in USA Swimming. I wouldn't take guitar lessons from someone who hasn't picked one up in 10 years, and I would't be too wild about taking swimming advice from someone whose pointers are based on old memories of swimming rather than current experiences. That's particularly true as our sport advances and new concepts and ideas replace old ones. If I were running my own team I would have a dedicated coach in the water with a camera every minute of practice, floating from lane to lane, snapping quick clips, having little 1 minute conversations with the athletes. That's exactly what I do when I teach privately and run group clinics.

I just finished a short document with support images/graphics that you may find useful. If you can share your email I'll send it to you.

Gary
gary@strokedocswim.com
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Re: Crawl technique (freestyle swimming) - Arms position underwater [dogmile] [ In reply to ]
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I suspect Laure Manaudou's stroke would work well in open water: http://www.youtube.com/...e81gjbAA&t=5m55s
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