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Escape From Alcatraz death?
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I heard there was someone from pulled from the swim in Alcatraz today being rescusitated. Anyone have any info?

Mark M
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [MarkM] [ In reply to ]
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my best info: yes. another swim death.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Condolences to the friends and family.

Are you aware of any efforts (by USAT or others) to do molecular autopsies on these athletes who pass? I have to think that LQTS1 has already been considered as a culprit but I have not kept up on the status of the investigation into these swim related deaths. I have certainly considered genetic testing for myself if I am going to continue in this sport.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [MarkM] [ In reply to ]
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we have about as much as we can get as of this moment here. there are 1 or 2 things i haven't written yet, that i think are noteworthy and that i believe i'll take up at a later time. but for now, this is what we know.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Yknot] [ In reply to ]
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if you follow the links at the bottom of the page on the article on this death that's just published on the slowtwitch front page, you'll find a LOT we've written about this, including a lot on cardiac health. there is no common etiology. i have not yet heard that long QT was the proximate cause in any triathlon deaths. yes in HCM, yes on left ventricular hypertrophy, but i've still got a real question about how it is you tell, in an autopsy, pathological LVH versus exercise response LVH. to me, it's like saying that a common thread in all divorces is that the husband sometimes thought of other women. that's an easy out. i have a lot more to ask and learn about LVH. but long QT, no, i don't get the sense that this is a problem in our cohort.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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This swim was scary... I've never been nervous in the water my entire life... but the swim today was just different...

RIP to the family... such a sad thing.

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Tri-livin] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-livin wrote:
This swim was scary... I've never been nervous in the water my entire life... but the swim today was just different...

RIP to the family... such a sad thing.

Something about the conditions today (have you done the swim before)? Or just the swim in general? I've done it 3x and agree as a swim it can be stressful, including the jump. Just curious I the comment relates to the nature of the swim itself or something else going on

So sad. Condolences to the family
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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no.. haven't done the swim before.. But I've swam in very rough waters and in tough conditions... Maybe my idea of tough wasn't really all that bad.

I just found myself today in the water thinking... "oh my gosh... this is very real and very dangerous.. take it easy".. I've never had this thought before

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Such sad news. It just breaks my heart.

Condolences to the victim's family. Thoughts and prayers for our entire triathlon community.

Larry
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [lcreswell] [ In reply to ]
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Ive done this race the past three years and i completely agree, something was different with this one. I recall swimming in valleys of water where to my left i saw six feet if seas and water from my right pounding me over my head. It was rough, rough seas out there. At one point i heard someone yelling "help me, help me" and I pray it was not this gentleman who died. That would be hard to take.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for the response and your work keeping the triathlon community updated on this. I will explore the links from the article.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Tri-livin] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like from dans story and other posts the conditions were tough. Good job reigning it in
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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Condolences to the athletes family. Not a great way to start our season off.

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Bmanners] [ In reply to ]
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No way to know if it contributed, but maybe march is not an ideal time for this race given much colder temps
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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i don't think the temps were a lot colder. i think it's always cold. it's 55, pretty much, and i don't have any info that it was much if any colder. rougher, yes, but i don't know if that's typical for the season or not.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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Local news just reported that it was a 46yr old from Austin, TX. Possible heart attack at swim start.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [sfbadger] [ In reply to ]
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Did the organizers inform participants of the approx. 4 knots ebb tide? My friends who swim The Bay daily said The Escape triathletes would have to swim on a 90-degree course away from the exit point on shore in order to compensate for the tide today. We thought only strong swimmers could get across close enough to shore for the exit unless the ferries dropped off triathletes short of the island.
sfbadger wrote:
Ive done this race the past three years and i completely agree, something was different with this one. I recall swimming in valleys of water where to my left i saw six feet if seas and water from my right pounding me over my head. It was rough, rough seas out there. At one point i heard someone yelling "help me, help me" and I pray it was not this gentleman who died. That would be hard to take.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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[/quote Slowman]i don't think the temps were a lot colder. i think it's always cold. it's 55, pretty much, and i don't have any info that it was much if any colder. rougher, yes, but i don't know if that's typical for the season or not.[/quote]

Sea temp was 51F in the Aquatic Center yesterday.
Last edited by: Pedalhead: Mar 3, 13 17:25
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Tri-livin] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-livin wrote:
This swim was scary... I've never been nervous in the water my entire life... but the swim today was just different...

RIP to the family... such a sad thing.

I did Alcatraz today. The water was really cold and very choppy. But I wouldn't consider it dangerous by any stretch. Well, any more dangerous than swimming the bay any other time. I feel for the victims family, and hope they can find out exactly what happened. They supposedly had 100 support kayaks out there.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Pedalhead] [ In reply to ]
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"Sea temp was 51F in the Aquatic Center yesterday."

yeah, i saw that in the event's press release that i just got. that's very cold. i raced a half once in 51°, in fresh water, and that was very butt cold.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [nickwhite] [ In reply to ]
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I did the race today, I consider myself a strong swimmer and I put up a (imho) horrible time. This was my first time doing the race. I did not consider the temp to be an issue until getting out of the water, the issue was the wind blowing North, and the tide pulling hard out. The chop was really big and it really impared my normal stroke. Lot of missed breaths and drank a lot of water. Sighting was really confussing. I would not recommend this swim for a begginner and hope that the very well run race does a good job checking the qualifications of the participants. Even if you swim and race on a regular basis today was a whole other ball game. Just my opinion. I wish the best to the wife and family, cant imagine how difficult this is. RIP and God Bless.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [MarkM] [ In reply to ]
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I'm fairly certain I sat next to the gentleman during the boat ride to Alcatraz. He was a really nice guy, very fit looking and didn't seem overly worried about the swim. My heartfelt condolences to his family.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [LoDewey] [ In reply to ]
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This is just so tragic. News like this is heartbreaking. So sorry for the family's loss. I'm from Austin and did this race rather unprepared last year. This news feels like a punch in the stomach. Rest in peace.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [dwgrenle] [ In reply to ]
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dwgrenle wrote:
I did the race today, I consider myself a strong swimmer and I put up a (imho) horrible time. This was my first time doing the race. I did not consider the temp to be an issue until getting out of the water, the issue was the wind blowing North, and the tide pulling hard out. The chop was really big and it really impared my normal stroke. Lot of missed breaths and drank a lot of water. Sighting was really confussing. I would not recommend this swim for a begginner and hope that the very well run race does a good job checking the qualifications of the participants. Even if you swim and race on a regular basis today was a whole other ball game. Just my opinion. I wish the best to the wife and family, cant imagine how difficult this is. RIP and God Bless.

I agree 100% with all you said. Definitely not a swim for the inexperienced.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Pedalhead] [ In reply to ]
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Pedalhead wrote:
[/quote Slowman]i don't think the temps were a lot colder. i think it's always cold. it's 55, pretty much, and i don't have any info that it was much if any colder. rougher, yes, but i don't know if that's typical for the season or not.


Sea temp was 51F in the Aquatic Center yesterday.[/quote]
Most years the temp for the race is 52-53 (when it was held later in the year), so it's a bit colder than normal (even a few degrees makes a big difference). The Bay doesn't change much during the year (I think the warmest I've ever seen it for a race was 58).

Condolences to the family on their loss. Just heartbreaking.

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [dwgrenle] [ In reply to ]
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dwgrenle wrote:
I did the race today, I consider myself a strong swimmer and I put up a (imho) horrible time. This was my first time doing the race. I did not consider the temp to be an issue until getting out of the water, the issue was the wind blowing North, and the tide pulling hard out. The chop was really big and it really impared my normal stroke. Lot of missed breaths and drank a lot of water. Sighting was really confussing. I would not recommend this swim for a begginner and hope that the very well run race does a good job checking the qualifications of the participants. Even if you swim and race on a regular basis today was a whole other ball game. Just my opinion. I wish the best to the wife and family, cant imagine how difficult this is. RIP and God Bless.

This describes my experience as well. The chop was tough. I had a tough time sighting over the swell, just one wave to the face after another. Breathing to the right was nearly impossible.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Tri-livin] [ In reply to ]
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I am sorta glad I didn't get picked in the lottery this year. The water temps, conditions, etc seemed a really hard swim.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [MarkM] [ In reply to ]
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My condolences to the friends & family of the triathlete.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Pelotontopodium] [ In reply to ]
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Sad story for the Austin community...
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
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A Video of the swim from one of the support kayaks.

[video removed. was from last years race]
Last edited by: Atak Kat: Mar 4, 13 6:01
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Atak Kat] [ In reply to ]
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Atak Kat wrote:
A Video of the swim from one of the support kayaks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgxtM1ace8Q
that looks really rough and choppy

Sad, it happened.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Atak Kat] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting that video. The chop was pretty gnarly out there. Got slapped in the face with water over and over again. As a pro I was lucky to have the lead boat with a big, bright pink buoy on the back to follow. Sighting for anyone that jumped off the boat more than a few minutes behind us must have been very difficult.

Condolences to the family of the gentleman who passed. Very, very sad news.

Jason Pedersen
RunPd.com - Running as fast I can since '93
@jasonpedersen
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Atak Kat] [ In reply to ]
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Here's another video of swim start viewed from the boat.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Atak Kat] [ In reply to ]
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RIP and my tho are with his family...

The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Atak Kat] [ In reply to ]
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Atak Kat wrote:
A Video of the swim from one of the support kayaks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgxtM1ace8Q

If you follow the link in the description of this video it was originally posted in 9/12, so it is not footage of this year's race.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Rrr8400] [ In reply to ]
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yup. you're right. my bad.

-ak-
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Atak Kat] [ In reply to ]
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But I did it this year and it was at least as choppy as that video if not more so.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [dwgrenle] [ In reply to ]
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dwgrenle wrote:
I did the race today, I consider myself a strong swimmer and I put up a (imho) horrible time. This was my first time doing the race. I did not consider the temp to be an issue until getting out of the water, the issue was the wind blowing North, and the tide pulling hard out. The chop was really big and it really impared my normal stroke. Lot of missed breaths and drank a lot of water. Sighting was really confussing. I would not recommend this swim for a begginner and hope that the very well run race does a good job checking the qualifications of the participants. Even if you swim and race on a regular basis today was a whole other ball game. Just my opinion. I wish the best to the wife and family, cant imagine how difficult this is. RIP and God Bless.

I also agree with this... I'm not a strong swimmer. MOP normally, but I am confident in my swim ability (however slow). But this was definitely the toughest swim I've ever done. Cold aside (which sucked, but after a few minutes you were numb to it), the waves were a pain in the butt. I breathe to the right which just made my life worse.

I think the current was the biggest culprit. At no point was I getting a free ride... It was a struggle to get across the current before it swept you past the swim exit. A lot of people ended up west of the swim exit. A strong swimmer could have crossed the current better and had a decent swim... me, I just made it to the the swim exit, but spent a lot of energy swimming east. I could see how someone would freak out and panic that they are swimming hard, but just getting swept away.

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Rrr8400] [ In reply to ]
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Not going to post the name on the board, but just read an article where an anonymous source named the victim. Confirmed DNF in race results also. Did a Google search on his name and one of the first links is an article where he is defending the death of a UT Professor who was hit while cycling (he was an attorney), tragedy indeed for my ATX community.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Quant] [ In reply to ]
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If you googled athlinks after his name you would see he also had more then a few races under him.

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Bmanners] [ In reply to ]
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I'm an SF local and trained in the bay (to aclimate to the low water temps and the like) for a month before the race and the swim was the hardest that I've experienced. I can only imagine what it was like for folks coming in from out of town dealing with that.

The local paper here reported today that over 150 people were pulled from the water by kayaks and rescue boats yesterday. Crazy!
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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Here's a link to the story: http://www.sfgate.com/...riathlon-4326269.php
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [terje] [ In reply to ]
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I love how the race director is immediately claiming that it was a cardiac problem even before the body is dry. I guess it's an easy and currently popular way to deny liability.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Kenny Powers] [ In reply to ]
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Kenny Powers wrote:
Atak Kat wrote:
A Video of the swim from one of the support kayaks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgxtM1ace8Q

that looks really rough and choppy

Sad, it happened.

I heard the current was quite strong too and you were never swimming with it.

So sad to hear about this death. =(
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Bmanners] [ In reply to ]
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Bmanners wrote:
If you googled athlinks after his name you would see he also had more then a few races under him.

True, Athlinks has results of 11 races..... but you'll notice nothing recorded since 2006....and only four tri races (the rest are runs) in his history. I'm not familiar enough with Athlinks but I thought they are pretty accurate with race results..... are very accurate with having results of all my races over the past two years......since I started doing tri events. Just wondering if there is a possibility this was his first race in 6-7 years. Might explain the sudden cardiac arrest? Who knows.....just a thought......tough event to enter if it was. God bless him and his family.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [gphin305] [ In reply to ]
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gphin305 wrote:
Bmanners wrote:
If you googled athlinks after his name you would see he also had more then a few races under him.


True, Athlinks has results of 11 races..... but you'll notice nothing recorded since 2006....and only four tri races (the rest are runs) in his history. I'm not familiar enough with Athlinks but I thought they are pretty accurate with race results..... are very accurate with having results of all my races over the past two years......since I started doing tri events. Just wondering if there is a possibility this was his first race in 6-7 years. Might explain the sudden cardiac arrest? Who knows.....just a thought......tough event to enter if it was. God bless him and his family.

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [npage148] [ In reply to ]
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Right. "Cardiac arrest/problem" is the knee-jerk claim. Or, in South Africa it was "cardiac respiratory arrest." Well duh, isn't that how we all die sooner or later? But it's a push when they claim it was a "massive heart attack" because that implies underlying heart disease. If there is an autopsy, the findings may show 'athlete's heart,' another generalization that seems to blame the athlete or the sport.

npage148 wrote:
I love how the race director is immediately claiming that it was a cardiac problem even before the body is dry. I guess it's an easy and currently popular way to deny liability.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Kenny Powers] [ In reply to ]
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That video was last year, and last year was pretty tame by most accounts (I did the race). I think the temp was 52, 51 is average. I swam aquatic park the day before and it was 51. Cold. Choppy. Confusing.

It is a tough swim, but that jump is an adrenaline explosion. You've been waiting on a warm ship for an hour or more, you can barely see SF, you are told you have literally seconds to get in and get out of the way, you know it is going to be freezing and choppy, and if you've never done it before, you have this small inkling of doubt in the back of your mind. It is infamous for a reason.

They tell athletes at pre-race that the swim is the most mentally challenging swim you will ever do. That seems pretty correct. Swim starts are always stressful, but with Alcatraz, it is a massive mental hump to get over.

There are literally a million things that could have gone wrong for this guy. People jump in with little regard for athletes in front of them. Two or three people could have come in on top of him if he was already in distress.

Another issue with Alcatraz is that there are a LOT of inexperienced swimmers. People with little to no experience with anything at that distance or in that water.

Still, it is the single greatest race I've ever done.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Lou3000] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think jumping off a boat is the safest way for mass swim starts. Even if they are in smaller waves

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Bmanners] [ In reply to ]
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Bmanners wrote:
I don't think jumping off a boat is the safest way for mass swim starts. Even if they are in smaller waves

Some of the other Alcatraz tris and swims (ultimate escape, sharkfest, etc.) have you jump off the boat and swim ~50m to the deep water start. It gives you a chance to adjust to the water and entry shock before you have to go 100%. Probably safer, but they don't get the good visual of the pros all diving off the boat.

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Bmanners] [ In reply to ]
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I'm so sorry to hear this news and hope the best for the family/friends.

I brought up the subject in a previous thread about staggered swim starts and still consider it a safer way forward. While Alcatraz is semi-staggered, I would like to see IM branded races move towards testing the Challenge method. I've done 5 IM branded and 1 Challenge and had my best swim experience during the Challenge race.

As triathlon and IM's become like the new "marathon," more and more novices will just sign up w/out the proper education or training. I didn't even think about an IM until 5 years of consistent triathlon training and always tell people that the swim is the shortest part, but the most stressful, thus just tell newbies getting beat up during the swim to consider stopping mid swim just to look for open space which could be 2 meters to your right/left. Calm down and don't think you'll swim 1:30/100's during a race if you've been training at 1:45's. You'll just hyper ventilate and panic which doesn't bode well w/ 100's of people smashing you.

My previous thread on staggered starts: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Lou3000] [ In reply to ]
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Lou3000 wrote:
It is a tough swim, but that jump is an adrenaline explosion.

Adrenalin rush is often cited as a contributor to triathlon swim deaths. In other words, is the swim itself a secondary cause of death? The "fight-or-flight" response is supposed to be physiologically adaptive in times of acute mental stress. So, why are triathletes jumping off a ferry into cold water not protected by the stress response?
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [nickwhite] [ In reply to ]
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I raced yesterday too and it was the toughest conditions I have seen of the 3 times I have done the swim. First time was strong current and flat water - Beautiful. Second was slack tide with big swells - slow, but manageable.

Yesterday was really choppy and unpredictable. I think it just took a lot of patience and there wasn't really any way to get into a rhythm. I finished in 41 minutes, which put me around 500th out of the water (out of ~1500). I had to put in a charge the last 500 yards to not overshoot the beach.

Looks like you had a strong swim, but I would say anyone in the second half of the field would have struggled mightily in order to get across the current. I heard a lot of "swim across the river" and sighting landmarks, but no mention of the speed of the current or when you should change your sighting lines.

Love the bike and run course, but it's just really tough to predict the conditions of the bay. I wasn't scared of drowning, but there were a few moments I thought I might be climbing up the rocks and running back to the swim exit. Oh and 51 is a LOT colder than 58.

/kj

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Having done Alcatraz twice when it was in June, I think the first minute could be very disturbing as you jump into the cold water and realize you are in the middle of the bay so it is swim or swim, plus the rush of people swimming and jumping around you. I remember my HR always getting really high really quick and then after a minute or two everything will settle down and you will start thinking not reacting and executing your swim calmly.

I never felt unsafe and the jet-skies and safety personnel were always visible (thanks to one I shaved some time my first year as I was swimming the wrong angle but due to fog couldn't see the city very well)

Too sad to hear of another case

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [ivansie] [ In reply to ]
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very sad.

Do the studies show what heart rhythms victims have at the time of death? I'm curious if quicker defibrillation would make a difference. I guess using an AED on a boat could be problematic.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [avatar78] [ In reply to ]
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Thoughts go out to the family just down the road from me.

http://www.statesman.com/...hlon-remember/nWgZq/

American-Statesman Staff
A day after he died during a California triathlon, Austin attorney Ross Ehlinger was remembered by friends as a passionate advocate for youth sports who once appeared in court with a black eye after being hit by an errant baseball.
Ehlinger, 46, suffered an apparent heart attack Sunday, moments after the start of the Escape from Alcatraz triathlon, race officials said. The race began in the cold and choppy water of San Francisco Bay.
Friends said Ehlinger, who grew up in San Antonio and attended St. Mary’s University School of Law, loved adventure. He and his wife, Jena, had three children: Sam, 14; Jake 12; and Morgen, 10.
Family friend Steve Harren said Jena used to joke about her husband’s desire to do triathlons, calling him an overgrown kid. “In a loving way she’d say, ‘Look at my crazy husband doing a tri at age (almost) 50,” Harren said.
But Ehlinger prided himself on staying in shape, and he had recently returned to the sport of triathlon after taking a few years off to focus on coaching. He was director of the Westlake Pop Warner football league and had coached for the Western Hills baseball league.
“Every kid in Westlake knows Ross Ehlinger — there’s not one boy or girl whom he doesn’t know or hasn’t coached,” said Ehlinger’s training partner, Lance Thompson. The two competed in another California triathlon last August, and they prepared together for the Alcatraz event. They traveled to San Francisco with their wives together for Sunday’s race.
“There’s nobody like Ross. He’s a country boy living in a city town. He’s the type of person you hope your kids are like,” Thompson said. He noted that Ehlinger rarely spent money on himself and liked to post favorite quotes around his house for inspiration.
Ehlinger had tried a dozen cases in front of County Court at Law Judge David Phillips. “He was a spectacular human being. I never saw him lose a case, whether he was on the plaintiff or the defendant’s side,” Phillips said. “Juries loved him because he was so genuine, and they could tell he was not telling them anything he didn’t believe himself.”
The attorney, who specialized in insurance litigation, loved to talk about coaching and was teased for wearing short-sleeved shirts under his suit coats. “If he could have got away with a clip-on tie, he’d have worn it. He was uncomfortable in a lawyer-type uniform,” Phillips said.
Family friend Paige Alam said that for Ehlinger, “His family was his everything, his whole world. When we’d go paragliding with the kids and we were all nervous, he’d yell, ‘This is supposed to be fun!’ His heart was so big, he was such a gift for us all.”
Ehlinger had competed in triathlons — including the Escape From Alcatraz event — before. Because of a bad knee, he had planned to skip the run portion of the Alcatraz triathlon.
Water temperatures Sunday were 51 degrees. The race took place about three months earlier than in previous years, but even in June water temperatures typically hover between 52 and 56 degrees, said race director Bill Burke. Ehlinger was wearing a wetsuit, and Burke said he didn’t believe the cold water contributed to his death.
The death was the first at the Escape from Alcatraz Triathlon, which includes a 1.5-mile swim from the site of the former federal prison, an 18-mile bike ride and an eight-mile run. Triathlon support crew noticed someone in distress shortly after the 7:30 a.m. start of the race, Burke said. They performed CPR while pulling Ehlinger to shore and on land, but could not revive him, he said.
Burke directs several other triathlons, including the Aquaphor New York City Triathlon, which has recorded three deaths, all cardiac related, in recent years. Most deaths that occur during triathlons occur during the swim portion of the race, where there’s little time to react if anything goes wrong.
About 1,700 athletes started the Alcatraz race on Sunday, and about 25 dropped out after getting in the water, Burke said.
“My hearts and prayers are with the family and friends. It was just a sad day yesterday,” Burke said.
A 2012 study by USA Triathlon, the sport’s governing body, found a death rate of one per 76,000 participants in the sport. Most were attributed to sudden cardiac death.



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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Bmanners] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bmanners wrote:
I don't think jumping off a boat is the safest way for mass swim starts. Even if they are in smaller waves

I'll let you know my impressions after June 2.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
Bmanners wrote:
I don't think jumping off a boat is the safest way for mass swim starts. Even if they are in smaller waves


I'll let you know my impressions after June 2.

Steve did Alcatraz yesterday with the intention of picking up pointers for his race. I wonder if/how this will change things.

(You doing the Sprint or Olympic?)
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
Bmanners wrote:
I don't think jumping off a boat is the safest way for mass swim starts. Even if they are in smaller waves


I'll let you know my impressions after June 2.


Way back in 07 I think it was I saw my first video for the start of the Sharkfest, jumping off the boat, and my first thought was "I have to do that!" I've since done 2 more swims or swim/runs, and still think it's one of the most amazing starts in racing. Safest? Maybe not, as you are jumping into some pretty cold water. It's definitely a shock. And yes, couple years ago at the challenge as I was bobbing back up the girl behind me jumped, and landed on my kidney. That one hurt.

But there is no way to provide a warmup. Swimming in aquatic park (if that's where it is ending) is useless since you've got the whole walk to the pier/boat ride out time. I think it's up to racers to prepare themselves properly for the conditions, including practice swims, regular checkups, heart evals, etc.

Wildflower and Oceanside also allow very little warmup in cold water, but at least it is some, and there's probably ways to expand that. here, there is no way to get around the first jump, other than having the start 5 minutes after the jump (then you're waiting and drifting in cold water). I fear the Alcatraz races may be at risk with the (not unreasonable) push for warmups.
Last edited by: ChrisM: Mar 4, 13 12:38
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [WelshinPhilly] [ In reply to ]
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WelshinPhilly wrote:
klehner wrote:
Bmanners wrote:
I don't think jumping off a boat is the safest way for mass swim starts. Even if they are in smaller waves


I'll let you know my impressions after June 2.

Steve did Alcatraz yesterday with the intention of picking up pointers for his race. I wonder if/how this will change things.

(You doing the Sprint or Olympic?)

Go long or go home.

His web site refused to recognize the IFORGOT discout, and the web page for his season pass wasn't found, so that is one expensive race. You charge for a unique experience, you had better deliver a unique experience.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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I was thinking about that one to but figured the flys at Devilman were food enough before Eagleman. They kind of make you happy to go into the snake infested irrigation pond :0)

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Atak Kat] [ In reply to ]
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With the talk about videos, I swam next to a gentleman for a bit who backstroked the whole thing with a GoPro strapped to his chest. He appeared to be a very confident swimmer as he was backstroking as fast or faster than most mid-FOP freestylers. I would love to see that video for a variety of reasons.

Honestly, I didn't think the swim was that bad yesterday. I will admit I got a little freaked out at the amount of water I was swallowing, but I also sort of blamed myself. I was warned ahead of time that this is a race where it is advantageous to be able to breathe comfortably off your left side, but I still went into it only sticking to my default right side pattern, face facing the predominate swell direction.

All in all though, I can understand why people were uncomfortable in yesterday’s conditions. I swim regularly in the ocean in cold water and swell and I found the conditions yesterday challenging but not unreasonable. However, without that prior experience my perception would have likely been quite different.
Last edited by: tgarson: Mar 4, 13 15:40
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [MarkM] [ In reply to ]
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My thoughts are with this athlete's family today. My wife and I enjoyed breakfast in the city with our kids, and are now on our flight back to Seattle. I can't imagine sending them home next to an empty seat.


Sad to think that someone on that boat didn't come home. Hopefully he enjoyed the National Anthem before the gun went off. That was a good moment. That's what I would tell his wife if I could.

Scott
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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I saw a guy backstroking ahead of me... was he wearing gloves? likely just a bunch of video of sky...

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [kjmcawesome] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Looks like you had a strong swim

It certainly didn't feel like it. I had my Garmin in my swim cap, and swam for Fort Mason most of the swim. I started it after swimming for a few minutes:


Quote Reply
Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Lou3000] [ In reply to ]
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Firstly, my heart felt condolensces go out to the family of the man who passed away. Death is always a tragic event, but I think the family could take some comfort in knowing that at least he passed doing something he loved.

At least, thats what Ive told my family if anything were to ever happen to me while racing.


Im glad you expanded on whole experience, because that video posted of the year prior, while choppy isnt that bad at all and is not uncommon conditions for swims here in Australia BUT, we dont get the very cold water, nor do we have to jump off a boat and I think that distinction is huge.
Quote Reply
Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ChrisM wrote:
klehner wrote:
Bmanners wrote:
I don't think jumping off a boat is the safest way for mass swim starts. Even if they are in smaller waves


I'll let you know my impressions after June 2.


Way back in 07 I think it was I saw my first video for the start of the Sharkfest, jumping off the boat, and my first thought was "I have to do that!" I've since done 2 more swims or swim/runs, and still think it's one of the most amazing starts in racing. Safest? Maybe not, as you are jumping into some pretty cold water. It's definitely a shock. And yes, couple years ago at the challenge as I was bobbing back up the girl behind me jumped, and landed on my kidney. That one hurt.

But there is no way to provide a warmup. Swimming in aquatic park (if that's where it is ending) is useless since you've got the whole walk to the pier/boat ride out time. I think it's up to racers to prepare themselves properly for the conditions, including practice swims, regular checkups, heart evals, etc.

Wildflower and Oceanside also allow very little warmup in cold water, but at least it is some, and there's probably ways to expand that. here, there is no way to get around the first jump, other than having the start 5 minutes after the jump (then you're waiting and drifting in cold water). I fear the Alcatraz races may be at risk with the (not unreasonable) push for warmups.

I have not done this race, but would it not be possible to have athletes jump off the boat, then swim 100m to a buoy line / gate where the start happens 5 minutes later? That way there is 5 minutes of easy swimming and no "stampede" out of the gate. Or better yet, make 2 athletes jump off the boat every 2 second....that allows you to send off 3600 athletes in an hour. At least this way you have a long line of athletes (TT start) rather than a mass "jump off". You would need to put a timing wire on the boat, but the technology is there as it just works off a battery pack and GSM network communication to central timing station. I helped sportstats with a few timing stations last year. It could easily be done and everyone gets their time accurate without the crazy stampede.

Dev
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think they can have a bouy out there. The sharkfest swim had us jump and then swim to a line of kayaks. The invitational screwed up the start so it was jump and go, all on the same start time. The Alcatraz challenge had a timing strip, so it was jump and swim. Could do the jump and lineup as a compromise, I guess, but getting everyone lined up correctly and started at once could be difficult, but they do it at IMAZ etc
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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If it was unclear, I meant starting 2 athletes every 2 seconds in sequence (you could send them off by race number grouped by age groups). This was you can send off 1800 athletes in an hour. Don't know how many boats they use get everyone to the start location currently, but I don't think it would need to be any different, you'd just be sending off 2 swimmers at a time and that way no one feels pressure of a big mob of swimmers around them and can ease into their pace after the initial shock. Even in a wave start you can't really "ease in" if you happen to be in the front or middle of your wave because you will be "trampled" and that can lead to another layer of crazy panic.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Yknot] [ In reply to ]
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Yknot wrote:
Condolences to the friends and family.

Are you aware of any efforts (by USAT or others) to do molecular autopsies on these athletes who pass? I have to think that LQTS1 has already been considered as a culprit but I have not kept up on the status of the investigation into these swim related deaths. I have certainly considered genetic testing for myself if I am going to continue in this sport.

A genetic test cannot determine if you are susceptible to triathlon swim death.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [tri@thlete] [ In reply to ]
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tri@thlete wrote:

As triathlon and IM's become like the new "marathon," more and more novices will just sign up w/out the proper education or training. I didn't even think about an IM until 5 years of consistent triathlon training and always tell people that the swim is the shortest part, but the most stressful, thus just tell newbies getting beat up during the swim to consider stopping mid swim just to look for open space which could be 2 meters to your right/left. Calm down and don't think you'll swim 1:30/100's during a race if you've been training at 1:45's. You'll just hyper ventilate and panic which doesn't bode well w/ 100's of people smashing you.

My previous thread on staggered starts: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

you are incorrect on this. It has been a common trend with these swim deaths that the victim is always an experienced triathlete. We always find out later " "Bob" was always in the top of his age group "
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [cyclops] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.facebook.com/...ts/10151766979810410


"We'd been administering chest compressions in the boat for about 3 minutes by this time and I noticed that his ears were bleeding from the inside and the foam now flowed constantly from his nose and mouth."


Why is this guy bleeding from his ears? This would indicate tympanostomy tubes, eardrum rupture and/or skull fracture. Did he get hit by a boat? Do eardrums normally rupture during CPR?
Last edited by: RZ: Mar 4, 13 20:00
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [RZ] [ In reply to ]
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Foaming may indicate pulmonary edema or drowning.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [npage148] [ In reply to ]
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I understand the foaming. But why is he bleeding from his ears? It doesn't get through the eustachian tubes to the outside unless the eardrums are perforated. Can this happen when someone is bagged during CPR, or did this guy have eardrum tubes... or head trauma?
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Race I've done have used 2 ferries, but those races were smaller I think. Problem with the 2 x 2 would I guess be dealin with tides. I believe they schedule the swim to start just before slack, or the start of an ebb tide for marina green exits. Current will change quite a lot in an hour, perhaps making a finish impossible
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [RZ] [ In reply to ]
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My guess is negative pressure in middle ear cavity led to eardrum rupture and bleeding.

RZ wrote:
I understand the foaming. But why is he bleeding from his ears? It doesn't get through the eustachian tubes to the outside unless the eardrums are perforated. Can this happen when someone is bagged during CPR, or did this guy have eardrum tubes... or head trauma?
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Pedalhead] [ In reply to ]
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It was my first Alcatraz swim also. Pretty rough; the choppy waters were much more of a factor than the cold in my opinion. Apparently they pulled a lot more swimmers from the water than they normally do (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...death_n_2803792.html).


I heard some people call for help right after the swim started; I joined in to try and get the kayakers attention and continued on afterwards. I hope it wasn't the guy in question.

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Callin'] [ In reply to ]
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This has got to be the top comment from that article:

Excessive cardio activity - more than 3-4 minutes a day - is unhealthy and unnecessary.
We (our ancestors) only need to fight strongly or run to escape for a short period of time .

People should spend their time doing something productive or be idle.


/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [kjmcawesome] [ In reply to ]
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Man, you see man, it's like the chronic cardio and the corporations are like, totally holding us down man.

They want you to chronically train, they want you to buy their overly-designed shoes man, you're just a cog in the corporate machine man.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
Man, you see man, it's like the chronic cardio and the corporations are like, totally holding us down man.

They want you to chronically train, they want you to buy their overly-designed shoes man, you're just a cog in the corporate machine man.



/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [MarkM] [ In reply to ]
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My condolences to the family.

I'm not trying to imply that the extra-cold water this year contributed to this particular death. However, I think the race directors should have their heads examined for staging this race in MARCH!

I swim year-round at Aquatic Park, as do many of my fellow members at the South End Rowing Club. Not speaking for my club here, but I know a few things:

1. Feb. 9 is the median coldest swim-temp day of the year. This year's race was placed only 3 weeks after this date.
2. This year, the winter swimming temps have been just slightly colder than usual. If you got 51 degrees at the race, that was lucky. It's been 49-50.
3. WIND peaks in the spring, between early March and end of May. Big-sea conditions are what you get about every other day.
4. TIDES are the least predictable in the spring. Often they are stronger than usual. Timing can be off what the tide tables say, by more than an hour. There can be maddening eddies near the shoreline. This makes it challenging even for highly experienced swim directors to instruct swimmers as to what they should sight on.
5. This combination of difficult conditions - temps, wind, and tides - subside like clockwork every year, by June 1. The Escape is usually in June. Temps by then are between 57-62, and persist at 57-62 till late October.

In other words, Sunday's swim conditions were no anomaly. Entirely predictable.

Lifeguards I spoke to said they pulled more people from this swim than from any Escape in memory, and that the swimmers were terrified.

Summer water temps persist through October, and wind (and wind-driven waves) are minimal in the fall. The race directors moved the date to avoid conflicts with the summer America's Cup races. Why did they not move the Escape to October?

I have completed 10 swims from Alcatraz - the first was at the 2006 Escape, the other 9 have been with my swim club. I almost never do Alcatraz swims between January 1 and April 30; conditions are not to my liking. (That said, many people do - but they are no novices.)

My congratulations to everyone who jumped in that water on Sunday!

- Oleander
Last edited by: Oleander: Mar 5, 13 11:55
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Oleander] [ In reply to ]
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Classy organization. Check their home page

http://www.escapefromalcatraztriathlon.com/

Formely stef32
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [stef32] [ In reply to ]
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Good video showing swim conditions- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smX3YKyYvHw
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [stef32] [ In reply to ]
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Congratulations to you, stef32! However, too many others had to abandon the swim or needed to be pull out. I have to agree with Oleander that the Escape organization was negligent for not warning swimmers of the predictable difficult sea conditions.

stef32 wrote:
Classy organization. Check their home page

http://www.escapefromalcatraztriathlon.com/
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Pedalhead] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not a strong swimmer by any means and I was really scared during the swim. I knew it was going to be hard but it was crazy(for me anyway). I knew before signing in that the swim was going to be challenging. I don't think I'm ready to blame the organization. Maybe some people didn't do enough research on the race before signing in. By the way, I'm extremelly sad about the death. When I got home I gave my wife a big hug and told her I much I loved her and started crying.

Formely stef32
Last edited by: stef32: Mar 5, 13 20:45
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Oleander] [ In reply to ]
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Has the swim ever been cancelled at the Escape from Alcatraz?

If so, can anybody recall the details?

.

Larry Creswell
http://www.athletesheart.org, @athletesheart
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [lcreswell] [ In reply to ]
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My first time this year. Being from MI, all my training is in the warm pool. My last open water swim was September. My last big lake swim (Lake Michigan) was August. I've swam in some rough Lake MI waters and they are notorious for rip currents. I knew the Bay would be a challenge, but I did grossly under estimate just how hard the swim was.

Hitting the cold water was a huge shock. My head was dizzy and spinning. I just started swimming so nobody jumped on me. Once I got away from boat I stopped to get my sight line, but my head was still spinning. I came across some other swimmers all just bobbing up in down in the water. I immediately thought of the ending of Titanic. I asked a couple if they were okay and they were. I couldn't get my sight line due to dizzy head, so I just started swimming.

I couldn't get any grove going. My form sucked. No matter what side I breathed on, I was getting hit by a wave. I couldn't see shore very well with the waves and when I finally had my sights I knew I would over shoot the landing, which I did.

I did question my safety during the swim. I was so cold my whole body was shaking. It took me a long time to conquer the mental aspect of this swim. I just kept telling myself to trust my training. I eventually found a groove and the shore.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Oleander] [ In reply to ]
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I did completed the swim. Escape From Alcatraz was my first triathlon and first time in rough open water. I signed up for the race only a few months ago, on whim, through a charity bid, because I thought it would be a cool way to celebrate my 50th birthday. Plus gain some serious bragging rights to complete one of the world's most challenging triathlons where 80% of the participants are male and only 1% are in my age/gender group of females 50-54. But that kind of whimsical thinking may contribute to why triathlon deaths are on the rise...recreational athletes don't fully comprehend that this is not a staged thrill ride at an amusement park. It is something to seriously think through, research and more than sufficiently train for.

If I had known the valuable info in Oleander's post, I would have never put myself through the Escape's already challenging swim in these Winter conditions. After the race, I learned about the tragic death of a 46 year old participant. I haven't slept well since, as the brutal water conditions keep playing in my mind. I guess I'm allowing my fear to finally be released now. Somehow I kept from seriously panicking out there in the Bay. If I had known that someone died at the start of the swim, I would have never jumped off that boat. About 150 swimmers were plucked from the water and repositioned, 3 times the normal amount. 10 decided not to continue, whereas on a normal year only 3-4 make that call.

I'm not a strong swimmer, only having started Masters Swimming sessions a couple of months ago, and a month before that I couldn't even swim two pool laps without gasping for breath. If I was the race director, I wouldn't let someone like me get on the boat. But I figured that my mental and physical endurance training from marathon running would be sufficient to get away with only 3.5 months to learn how to ride a road racing bike with clipless pedals and swim in rough open water.

But swimming laps in a pool can not prepare you for being shoved around by the strong outgoing currents from the left and then slammed by the 6' swells formed by the 11 mph ocean winds coming in on your right. This information should be provided to the participants that morning so they were fully aware of what was out there and then make an informed decision about whether to continue or not. But the only thing we knew was that the water temperature was 51 and the air temp 52 (last year's race in June the water was 60 and air 70). I had no real idea what "rough" truly entailed under these unusually harsh conditions due to the race being held in winter instead of summer.

I'm sure that Ross Ehlinger initially thought the Escape was a fun and cool challenge, too. He probably planned to proudly show his finisher's medal to his three young boys. Instead, his wife had to witness his lifeless body on the dock while she cried "He said he could do it...", as first responders averted their eyes from the heart breaking scene. This could have been me and my family. Or yours.

So, can another tragedy like this be prevented? Perhaps requiring a signed certificate from your doctor saying that you have cleared a basic physical and appear to have the mental and physical ability to undergo such a demanding undertaking? Maybe a commitment from race organizers to not schedule races during the Winter's harsh swells and immobilizing cold? Proof that you've completed at least "x" amount of triathlons that involved open water swims? If this is your first tri, then a certificate from a swim program/workshop showing that you successfully engaged in an open water swim with currents and swells? The ability to clear a lottery and hand over $400 should not be the only firm requirement to engage in a potentially life threatening activity.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Elevation] [ In reply to ]
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thank you for your honesty, actually, that took a lot of courage.

I've been doing Tri's since '85 (some years off, but, still lots of experience). I enjoy ocean swimming - it's my favorite. I told my wife yesterday. there is no way I'd ever do a race that has me not able to do a warm up swim - especially in cold water. Not gonna happen - no way - never - it's not worth it. More important, not fun. I'm still learning about a proper warm up for a fast all out effort in a pool swim. Even in a warm pool I need nearly 1,000 yards to get ready for a hard 1,650.

Maybe I'm the only one. But, considering it's my life - that's all that matters to me.

Glad you made it. Perhaps you can truly enjoy a normal triathlon in waters that have few waves and decent temperatures. And, with an ability to do a warm up swim beforehand.

Cheers.

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Elevation] [ In reply to ]
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Those unprepared for adverse conditions in future races ought to think twice the more often harrowing experiences like yours are published. Triathlon swims shouldn't provoke near-death emotions and memories that disturb sleep!

Indeed, newbies to a race like The Escape should be more fully informed of the risks. But let's not leave out of the discussion of risk factors those who have gotten prepared. Triathlon swim deaths seem more common among those with a history of participation. What are experienced participants doing that increases their risk?

Elevation wrote:
I haven't slept well since, as the brutal water conditions keep playing in my mind. I guess I'm allowing my fear to finally be released now.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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JTolandTRI wrote:
Good video showing swim conditions-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smX3YKyYvHw[/quote[/url]]

----

Thiose conditions were indeed tough and the cold probrably made them worse but it just goes to show that people really need to start doing some research about just what can happen in a true open water swim.Apart from slower swim times and a little extra fatigue,conditions like those should not trouble experienced open water swimmers too much and races like Alcatraz should not be open to inexperienced swimmers.Period!

The swimmer that comes into shot at 15 secs into that video is a classic example of someone who really should not be out there.

I too agree that no warm up in cold water is an issue of many but that I guess is why so few sign up for events like Norseman.

--
Last edited by: Ultra-tri-guy: Mar 6, 13 7:17
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Elevation] [ In reply to ]
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Condolences to the family.

But all of you complaining about the conditions.... any of you done any research about air and water temp in San Fransisco before singing up or getting into the lottery?

I've always though that you have to "qualify" for this race and that it was very selective because of its difficulties, regardless if March, April, May...Unbelievable that for so many this was their first triathlon experience!

I am convinced that there is a demand for "hard, epic, difficult" races in triathlon. Such races should be labeled and marketed as such, with proper participants' qualification and experience. These races would still sell out.

It might be worth to consider to have a race difficulty label system (Beginner Friendly, Intermediate, Advanced, etc) and keep the sport appealing and challenging to a vast pool of participants. If every race has to be easy and accessible to everybody, this sport will lose its appeal, to me at least.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Michel08] [ In reply to ]
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Michel08 wrote:
Condolences to the family.

But all of you complaining about the conditions.... any of you done any research about air and water temp in San Fransisco before singing up or getting into the lottery?

I've always though that you have to "qualify" for this race and that it was very selective because of its difficulties, regardless if March, April, May...Unbelievable that for so many this was their first triathlon experience!

I am convinced that there is a demand for "hard, epic, difficult" races in triathlon. Such races should be labeled and marketed as such, with proper participants' qualification and experience. These races would still sell out.

It might be worth to consider to have a race difficulty label system (Beginner Friendly, Intermediate, Advanced, etc) and keep the sport appealing and challenging to a vast pool of participants. If every race has to be easy and accessible to everybody, this sport will lose its appeal, to me at least.

Interesting idea about the label. Don't know if it would "fly" but I like it. As a point of reference - Auburn Worlds Toughest half doesn't sell out. But, it's not the swim that's tough. The other two are plenty tough. So, the sell out part is not only about a label.

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Pedalhead] [ In reply to ]
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Pedalhead wrote:
Those unprepared for adverse conditions in future races ought to think twice the more often harrowing experiences like yours are published. Triathlon swims shouldn't provoke near-death emotions and memories that disturb sleep!


Indeed, newbies to a race like The Escape should be more fully informed of the risks. But let's not leave out of the discussion of risk factors those who have gotten prepared. Triathlon swim deaths seem more common among those with a history of participation. What are experienced participants doing that increases their risk?

Elevation wrote:
I haven't slept well since, as the brutal water conditions keep playing in my mind. I guess I'm allowing my fear to finally be released now.


That is the thing, participants of Escape to Alcatraz are informed of the risks. I distinctly recall multiple mentions during the registration process that this is not a beginner race, hence the qualifying system. For lottery entrants, you are required to include race results that are supposed to prove you are ready for an event like this.

In both the registration process and all over the site, first-time participants are warned against participating unless they at least complete the 'Escape Academy' training camp, which despite being another obvious money maker for the race, is also a pretty smart idea to actually get people prepared for this race.

Let's be realistic here on both fronts. The race attempts to prove people are prepared through qualification, prior results or training camps, but obviously does not fully enforce this.

I’m sure there is more the RDs could do, or could have done in this specific case to inform the participants of the likely conditions. But this is something I will stand by to my grave, the ultimate responsibility lies with the participants to make informed decisions over their own wellbeing.

Show me one place in any Escape materials where it says this is a beginner friendly race, otherwise quite frankly, anyone who came into this race unprepared needs to own up or shut up about where the blame lies.

Quote:
Is this a good race for first-timers?
A: This race is extremely challenging and we do not recommend for first-time triathletes unless you have experience in similar disciplines, are in excellent physical condition, or have been working out with an experienced trainer or coach. We recommend attending an Escape Academy Clinic if you are training for this as a first-time triathlon or even if you are experience but have never done this particular race before.

From the race FAQ.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Michel08] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Michel08 wrote:
Condolences to the family.

But all of you complaining about the conditions.... any of you done any research about air and water temp in San Fransisco before singing up or getting into the lottery?

I've always though that you have to "qualify" for this race and that it was very selective because of its difficulties, regardless if March, April, May...Unbelievable that for so many this was their first triathlon experience!

I am convinced that there is a demand for "hard, epic, difficult" races in triathlon. Such races should be labeled and marketed as such, with proper participants' qualification and experience. These races would still sell out.

It might be worth to consider to have a race difficulty label system (Beginner Friendly, Intermediate, Advanced, etc) and keep the sport appealing and challenging to a vast pool of participants. If every race has to be easy and accessible to everybody, this sport will lose its appeal, to me at least.

Not to get into a BT vs ST pissing match, but...

This was the biggest reason I gave up posting/lurking over there - someone would post about an upcoming race, saying they weren't sure if they were prepared enough for the swim, and instead of receiving the hard, factual advice they probably needed, it would turn into a group hug with people recommending strategies like hanging onto rescue kayaks/boards, backstroking it, etc.

I've even had people in real life (who do triathlons) ask me why I swim 2500+ yards in a workout when "most swims are only 400 or 800 yards". I really don't think a lot of people signing up to do these races appreciate what the swim requires, and what failure to prepare properly can result in.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Elevation] [ In reply to ]
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Elevation wrote:
I did completed the swim. Escape From Alcatraz was my first triathlon and first time in rough open water. I signed up for the race only a few months ago, on whim, through a charity bid, because I thought it would be a cool way to celebrate my 50th birthday. Plus gain some serious bragging rights to complete one of the world's most challenging triathlons where 80% of the participants are male and only 1% are in my age/gender group of females 50-54. But that kind of whimsical thinking may contribute to why triathlon deaths are on the rise...recreational athletes don't fully comprehend that this is not a staged thrill ride at an amusement park. It is something to seriously think through, research and more than sufficiently train for.

If I had known the valuable info in Oleander's post, I would have never put myself through the Escape's already challenging swim in these Winter conditions. After the race, I learned about the tragic death of a 46 year old participant. I haven't slept well since, as the brutal water conditions keep playing in my mind. I guess I'm allowing my fear to finally be released now. Somehow I kept from seriously panicking out there in the Bay. If I had known that someone died at the start of the swim, I would have never jumped off that boat. About 150 swimmers were plucked from the water and repositioned, 3 times the normal amount. 10 decided not to continue, whereas on a normal year only 3-4 make that call.

I'm not a strong swimmer, only having started Masters Swimming sessions a couple of months ago, and a month before that I couldn't even swim two pool laps without gasping for breath. If I was the race director, I wouldn't let someone like me get on the boat. But I figured that my mental and physical endurance training from marathon running would be sufficient to get away with only 3.5 months to learn how to ride a road racing bike with clipless pedals and swim in rough open water.

But swimming laps in a pool can not prepare you for being shoved around by the strong outgoing currents from the left and then slammed by the 6' swells formed by the 11 mph ocean winds coming in on your right. This information should be provided to the participants that morning so they were fully aware of what was out there and then make an informed decision about whether to continue or not. But the only thing we knew was that the water temperature was 51 and the air temp 52 (last year's race in June the water was 60 and air 70). I had no real idea what "rough" truly entailed under these unusually harsh conditions due to the race being held in winter instead of summer.

I'm sure that Ross Ehlinger initially thought the Escape was a fun and cool challenge, too. He probably planned to proudly show his finisher's medal to his three young boys. Instead, his wife had to witness his lifeless body on the dock while she cried "He said he could do it...", as first responders averted their eyes from the heart breaking scene. This could have been me and my family. Or yours.

So, can another tragedy like this be prevented? Perhaps requiring a signed certificate from your doctor saying that you have cleared a basic physical and appear to have the mental and physical ability to undergo such a demanding undertaking? Maybe a commitment from race organizers to not schedule races during the Winter's harsh swells and immobilizing cold? Proof that you've completed at least "x" amount of triathlons that involved open water swims? If this is your first tri, then a certificate from a swim program/workshop showing that you successfully engaged in an open water swim with currents and swells? The ability to clear a lottery and hand over $400 should not be the only firm requirement to engage in a potentially life threatening activity.

Just wanted to say thanks for sharing and glad you are here.

To Manofthewoods. I have been racing tris since 1985. I am not a beginner. My best IM swim times before shoulder and neck injuries were 54 and 56 minutes (56 minutes at IMC, so legit....54 in Roth). I'm not a novice nor "weak swimmer". Nevertheless, I am completely opposed to 2 things:

  • large mass starts
  • no swim warmup area

Like you, I need a long warmup. I prefer to ride my bike 20 minutes (if possible) from hotel to race venue to get my heart rate going in a benign environment....then ideally a swim warmup, but if I can't do a swim warmup a run warmup. A race like Alcatraz which I have no intention of over doing, I would not be able to do any of these.

I am yet to hear of anyone dying at the start of masters swim practice at the Y, but we always hear about guys dying at the start of triathlons. How come no one is dying at masters swim at the start of their morning swim? Why? I don't know, but no one starts masters swim in a full out sprint with 2000 people swimming over their back in cold water with a wetsuit on.

We can't get rid of the cold water part in racing, and we can't get rid of the "wetsuit part", but we can get rid of the 2000 people simultaneously and we can add warmup areas.

Is anyone aware of an athlete dying at the start of a swim in a no wetsuit race (maybe there are)? Personally I never have panic/hyperventilation without wetsuit, but I have had it with wetsuit.

Dev
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Ultra-tri-guy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks for posting this video that shows how “rough” rough can truly be on the SF Bay in the winter. Prior to the race, I searched endlessly for useful videos, but most footage was shot from far away and last year’s water conditions appeared much calmer. It'd be great if the race directors post this valuable video on their website to concretely illustrate what "rough" really is and give people a reality check on their mental and physical abilities.

I trusted that the race directors chose March 3 because, although chilly, it would be the ideal tide conditions outside of the Escape's regular June summer date. But the SF Bay’s winter conditions proved to be unpredictable and rougher than any of us could have imagined. Hopefully the Escape will never have to be scheduled outside of it’s June summer date again.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Elevation] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Elevation wrote:
The ability to clear a lottery and hand over $400 should not be the only firm requirement to engage in a potentially life threatening activity.


While my previous post in this thread was not directly in response to your post, it certainly was influenced by it. While I can sincerely appreciate both your honesty and your perspective on the topic, it's hard not to point out the immense difficulty in that closing statement.

There are countless potentially life threatening activities or situations I could engage or insert myself into in a daily basis. My commute to work is a potentially life threatening situation. Every single time I head out the door for a bike ride, I'm participating in a potentially life threatening activity.

Consider the waivers that you have to 'read' and sign before registering for races, consider the 4, or was it 5 separate waivers that you had to sign at packet pickup for this race? Consider the mandatory athlete briefings, the multiple, and I stress multiple newsletters that were sent out for weeks prior to this race explaining the course and challenges. How can anyone possible argue that the risks associated with triathlon are less communicated to you than the literally countless more statistically dangerous activities that we participate on a daily basis?

Could the sport as a whole do a better job to communicate risks? Certainly, and as these deaths continue to happen I'd think it inevitable that they eventually will.

However, I will never concede on the point of personal accountability. No amount of education or warning in the world will help if people simply ignore it. Sure, some form of compulsorily medical examination might help by removing the personal choice from the matter, but how is the absurdity of that statement not self-evident? We have to force people to look out for their own well-being? Is self-preservation not the most basic and universal of all instincts?

Any death is a tragedy, and this is no different. But life is full of measured risks, and it's my responsibility to decide which ones I'm willing to take or potentially suffer the consequences.
Last edited by: tgarson: Mar 6, 13 11:27
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
While my previous post in this thread was not directly in response to your post, it certainly was influenced by it. While I can sincerely appreciate both your honesty and your perspective on the topic, it's hard not to point out the immense difficulty in that closing statement.

There are countless potentially life threatening activities or situations I could engage or insert myself into in a daily basis. My commute to work is a potentially life threatening situation. Every single time I head out the door for a bike ride, I'm participating in a potentially life threatening activity.

Consider the waivers that you have to 'read' and sign before registering for races, consider the 4, or was it 5 separate waivers that you had to sign at packet pickup for this race? Consider the mandatory athlete briefings, the multiple, and I stress multiple newsletters that were sent out for weeks prior to this race explaining the course and challenges. How can anyone possible argue that the risks associated with triathlon are less communicated to you than the literally countless more statistically dangerous activities that we participate on a daily basis?

Could the sport as a whole do a better job to communicate risks? Certainly, and as these deaths continue to happen I'd think it inevitable that they eventually will.

However, I will never concede on the point of personal accountability. No amount of education or warning in the world will help if people simply ignore it. Sure, some form of compulsorily medical examination might help by removing the personal choice from the matter, but how is the absurdity of that statement not self-evident? We have to force people to look out for their own well-being? Is self-preservation not the most basic and universal of all instincts?

Any death is a tragedy, and this is no different. But life is full of measured risks, and it's my responsibility to decide which ones I'm willing to take or potentially suffer the consequences.

Must be nice living in that fantasy world of yours. The real world the rest of live in is filled with idiots too irresponsible to make sound judgements. Another feature of the real world is that the actions of idiots affect more than just the idiot.

It is bad for business to have people die. It affects insurance rates paid by races. It affects how much I have to pay to compete. It affects the willingness of communitites to host events.

While it does not appear to be the case here, there are too many one-and-doners leaping into events they do not the experience to do. I do not think it impinges on people's freedom to demand that they crawl before they walk. You want to do a certain event. Fine. Show that you have a minimum level of experience. Do a few half Irons before doing an Iron. Do a few Olympics before doing a half. Stack on some sort of extra qualification for known difficult swims.

It strengthens the sport to encourage a lifestyle and history of participation instead of doing the minimum to get a fucking tattoo to show off to your coworkers and neighbors.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Elevation] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"Prior to the race, I searched endlessly for useful videos, but most footage was shot from far away and last year’s water conditions appeared much calmer"

i would like to know the following, from you and anyone else who did the race. eric gilsenen has produced and narrated a fabulous set of videos over the years that show the alcatraz race. in those videos i see some pretty rough water. not appreciably less rough than the water from this past weekend. i'll concede that the water was rougher than in years past, however, the videos i have seen seem to me to display the difficulty of this race pretty well. except for the fact that 51 degrees is an expected, not anomalous, water temperature for this time of year and i don't see anywhere where this was mentioned on the website.

however, my question is this, for all who did the race: were you told in pre-race emails, or anywhere, about these excellent videos that do exist describing the race and its conditions?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
the race director and host of the videos (Eric?) repeatedly stressed watching these videos at the optional pre-race meeting Friday night at Sports Basement then again at the mandatory meeting on Saturday afternoon near transition

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
Last edited by: Callin': Mar 6, 13 12:22
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
We can't get rid of the cold water part in racing, and we can't get rid of the "wetsuit part", but we can get rid of the 2000 people simultaneously and we can add warmup areas.

Is anyone aware of an athlete dying at the start of a swim in a no wetsuit race (maybe there are)? Personally I never have panic/hyperventilation without wetsuit, but I have had it with wetsuit.

Same here, twice (several years apart)... Experienced swimmer (usually top 10-15% or so), including open water, river currents, bays, ocean, etc; done plenty of other mass starts w/ a wetsuit besides those 2 occasions, and after having experienced the first one I wouldn't have thought it could happen again since I had a better sense of what to expect, and yet even though I could feel it approaching the second time I was not able to suppress it. Had to flip over and do a little backstroke to catch my breath and settle down both times.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan, are the videos you referring to these ones? http://www.escapefromalcatraztriathlon.com/Race_Info/Race_Tips.htm

It's a legit question, youtube is blocked at work so I don't know who produced/narrated those.

If those are the ones you are talking about however, then the answer is a definitive yes. Weekly newsletters were sent in the build up the race, each one focusing on a different aspect of the race (swim, bike course, run) with the videos attached.

At the mandatory athletes briefing they asked the crowd, "Did you watch the videos?", and the response was a large majority yes. Between the athletes briefing, the announcements during the morning, and the repeated announcements over the PA on the boat itself, advice was continued to be offered about the swim, reiterating sighting and swimming guidance. We all sounded like zombies reciting back "Swim across the river" to the multiple prods from race organizers to drill it into our head.

The point of all of this is that despite all of the claims from participants of unpreparedness, this race has the greatest emphasis on pre-race education that I have personally witnessed. That's not necessarily saying a lot since most races have no emphasis on it, but I think it is truly unfair to pick out this race and this RD as a scapegoat.


Again, could they have done more? Sure, but are they already doing more than seemingly everyone else? I'd say yes again.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
"however, my question is this, for all who did the race: were you told in pre-race emails, or anywhere, about these excellent videos that do exist describing the race and its conditions?

Escape is by far the most proactive and communicative race I have participated in over 20 years of a variety of endurance events.

I have nine "newsletters" in my inbox from escape which were distributed on a pre-established schedule beginning immediately after registration. These newsletters each focus on one aspect of the race, including logistics and detailed descriptions of what to expect on the SWIM, bike and run course. The key points are reiterated in two follow up newsletters immediately prior to the event. You can view them here: http://www.escapefromalcatraztriathlon.com/...wsletter_Archive.htm

The swim newsletter states:

The water temperature will be approximately 52-54 degrees Fahrenheit and there should be minimal chop because the race will start at 7:30 AM prior to the winds picking up. The current on race morning will be pulling participants west (towards the Golden Gate Bridge). As a result, as participants 'swim across the river' left to right, they will be 'pulled' in the correct direction to end up right in front of the St Francis Yacht Club adjacent to the swim exit. Hot Tip: For information on sighting during the swim, please view all the instructional videos on the Official Event Website.

Participants are directed multiple times to a series of instructional videos, including several regarding the SWIM: http://www.escapefromalcatraztriathlon.com/Race_Info/Race_Tips.htm

The RD offers a clinic that gives you a day of instruction and a practice swim in the bay.
http://www.escapefromalcatraztriathlon.com/...r/Escape_Academy.htm

More than half of the discussion at the 1 hour athete's meeting focused on the swim. The RD asked for a show of hands regarding who had watched the swim video. He then told everyone to go back to their rooms and watch the videos (again).
Quote Reply
Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Elevation] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Elevation wrote:
Thanks for posting this video that shows how “rough” rough can truly be on the SF Bay in the winter. Prior to the race, I searched endlessly for useful videos, but most footage was shot from far away and last year’s water conditions appeared much calmer. It'd be great if the race directors post this valuable video on their website to concretely illustrate what "rough" really is and give people a reality check on their mental and physical abilities.

I trusted that the race directors chose March 3 because, although chilly, it would be the ideal tide conditions outside of the Escape's regular June summer date. But the SF Bay’s winter conditions proved to be unpredictable and rougher than any of us could have imagined. Hopefully the Escape will never have to be scheduled outside of it’s June summer date again.

Uh, no. The conditions were certainly rough in the extreme, even harsher than the norm for a notably tough race, but hardly unpredictable nor unimaginable to anyone who's done their homework. Winter/spring conditions on the north/central Pac coast (where the prevailing oceanic current is carrying colder water southward from the Gulf of Alaska along WA/OR/CA, unlike the warmer gulfstream flowing northward along the East Coast) is notoriously dicey more often than not. It's a sad outcome, but there's no way the risks should come as a surprise, just as when experienced climbers die at high altitude. Here, don't just take my word for it:

Oleander wrote:
I'm not trying to imply that the extra-cold water this year contributed to this particular death. However, I think the race directors should have their heads examined for staging this race in MARCH!

I swim year-round at Aquatic Park, as do many of my fellow members at the South End Rowing Club. Not speaking for my club here, but I know a few things:

1. Feb. 9 is the median coldest swim-temp day of the year. This year's race was placed only 3 weeks after this date.
2. This year, the winter swimming temps have been just slightly colder than usual. If you got 51 degrees at the race, that was lucky. It's been 49-50.
3. WIND peaks in the spring, between early March and end of May. Big-sea conditions are what you get about every other day.
4. TIDES are the least predictable in the spring. Often they are stronger than usual. Timing can be off what the tide tables say, by more than an hour. There can be maddening eddies near the shoreline. This makes it challenging even for highly experienced swim directors to instruct swimmers as to what they should sight on.
5. This combination of difficult conditions - temps, wind, and tides - subside like clockwork every year, by June 1. The Escape is usually in June. Temps by then are between 57-62, and persist at 57-62 till late October.

In other words, Sunday's swim conditions were no anomaly. Entirely predictable.

Lifeguards I spoke to said they pulled more people from this swim than from any Escape in memory, and that the swimmers were terrified.

Summer water temps persist through October, and wind (and wind-driven waves) are minimal in the fall. The race directors moved the date to avoid conflicts with the summer America's Cup races. Why did they not move the Escape to October?

I have completed 10 swims from Alcatraz - the first was at the 2006 Escape, the other 9 have been with my swim club. I almost never do Alcatraz swims between January 1 and April 30; conditions are not to my liking. (That said, many people do - but they are no novices.)
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
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Dan,
I did the race and yes the videos were stressed. Emails were sent on a weekly basis with a new video attached, plus, at the pre race meeting it was stressed that if we had not already watched the videos that we absolutely should. All that being said, here is my two cents, I am a strong swimmer and I did not swim well. I am not opposed to the mass start, I think it is part of our sport and if you take it away it changes our sport. The cold I don't think was a huge factor but I spent two days at aquatic park getting acclimated The chop and tide I was not prepared for, I never was scared or freaked out, but I could not swim the way I wanted to. I do not think the race directors here are to blame (first death in 33 years) and I think that we all need to step back and look at it from the outside. Swimming from Alcatraz is not something that should be done on a whim, and I bet that every swimmer that was pulled from the water if they are honest would admit that they had no business in that race. As far as the race director goes the only suggestions I would make would be to not allow first timers in the race, including first time open water swimmers. 2nd it should have been stressed to all participants to arrive in San Fran early enough to get acclimated to the cold water, that made a big difference for me. 3rd- It should be made clear that your normal smooth water stroke and breathing technique may not work if the wind is up and that is something even strong and seasoned swimmers need to prepare for. Finally, do the back ground checks on the applicants previous swims, it is not difficult and could keep people from lying to get a spot. If someone signs up for a marathon or a century ride and has no business doing it then they can just stop, no harm no foul. The water is different, it will not forgive the unprepared. Most of the blame is on ourselves. The cold, the chop, and the jump off the boat all add to what makes this race so special, and such a challenge. I don't think we should take away from that.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tgarson wrote:

However, I will never concede on the point of personal accountability. No amount of education or warning in the world will help if people simply ignore it. Sure, some form of compulsorily medical examination might help by removing the personal choice from the matter, but how is the absurdity of that statement not self-evident? We have to force people to look out for their own well-being? Is self-preservation not the most basic and universal of all instincts?

Any death is a tragedy, and this is no different. But life is full of measured risks, and it's my responsibility to decide which ones I'm willing to take or potentially suffer the consequences.

THIS x 1,000,000.

My 3rd triathlon, almost a year after almost 20 years of couch potatoing was an IM. I combed the internet for race reports, I swam in those same seas countless times before the IM (local one) and rode the same roads. I joined BT and ST and read and researched. I did not let the RD decide anything for me.

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit


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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
"Prior to the race, I searched endlessly for useful videos, but most footage was shot from far away and last year’s water conditions appeared much calmer"

i would like to know the following, from you and anyone else who did the race. eric gilsenen has produced and narrated a fabulous set of videos over the
years that show the alcatraz race. in those videos i see some pretty rough water. not appreciably less rough than the water from this past weekend. i'll concede that the water was rougher than in years past, however, the videos i have seen seem to me to display the difficulty of this race pretty well. except for the fact that 51 degrees is an expected, not anomalous, water temperature for this time of year and i don't see anywhere where this was mentioned on the website.

however, my question is this, for all who did the race: were you told in pre-race emails, or anywhere, about these excellent videos that do exist describing the race and its conditions?

As a first timer, I watched ALL the videos on the website and any I could find on YouTube. I was ready for cold rough waters. I knew I had to swim 'across the river'. Once I dove into the water, all that went out the door. The first 30 seconds of pain as my balls raced north to snuggle behind the heat of my heart. Swimming across the river would be great if I could have seen across the river. Again, all my training was in a pool (live in MI). I haven't been in open water since September. The challenging conditions I was prepared for turned out to be significantly more challenging than I was expecting. It was just more than physically challenging, it was a mental beat down. Stay calm, focus, sight, stroke, repeat. It was one hell of a mental challenge.

In hindsight, there are some things the videos don't teach/show: how spread out everybody is, what to expect when you hit the water, difficulty of sighting, etc. Much of that is explained in paper, but many things sound great on paper but not very close to real life. Another thing I wasn't prepared or under estimated was the wait on the boat. I wish they stressed nutrition during the wait better, but only because many people are new to this event. It's my own fault for not understanding it, but there were so many things going on. I sat on the boat for over 90 minutes with no nutrition. I accept responsibility for that, I was just focused on other aspects of the race.

Side note: WTF does this race have against GU gel? There was a GU booth but they didn't sell their own product. The ONLY vendor that sold GU sold the blocks, not actual gel. I didn't bring any GU from MI because every race I've ever done had GU available. I couldn't find GU gel anywhere. My Walgreens up the road in MI sells GU gel. Not the Walgreens in SF. I've been to smaller grass-roots races that have had more vendors than this race had. I could have brought stuff from my closet that I don't wear and have more products than the 'athlete village' had. I've never seen such a lack of nutrition from a race that had an international crowd. The website mentioned GU and other vendors so I figured I could buy most of my nutrition there. The GU vendor didn't sell their product. WTF? I think the website oversold the 'athlete village'. It was a joke.

Somebody above criticized those who were 'complaining'. There is a big difference between complaining and sharing feedback. Just because somebody says it was harder than expected, etc doesn't mean they are complaining. It has nothing to do with complaining, it's just sharing experience versus expectations. I have zero complaints about the swim, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to share how the swim kicked my ass. The only complaint I have was the 'athlete village'. Again, that was pretty pathetic.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
GreatScott wrote:
Slowman wrote:
"however, my question is this, for all who did the race: were you told in pre-race emails, or anywhere, about these excellent videos that do exist describing the race and its conditions?


Escape is by far the most proactive and communicative race I have participated in over 20 years of a variety of endurance events.

I have nine "newsletters" in my inbox from escape which were distributed on a pre-established schedule beginning immediately after registration. These newsletters each focus on one aspect of the race, including logistics and detailed descriptions of what to expect on the SWIM, bike and run course. The key points are reiterated in two follow up newsletters immediately prior to the event. You can view them here: http://www.escapefromalcatraztriathlon.com/...wsletter_Archive.htm

The swim newsletter states:

The water temperature will be approximately 52-54 degrees Fahrenheit and there should be minimal chop because the race will start at 7:30 AM prior to the winds picking up. The current on race morning will be pulling participants west (towards the Golden Gate Bridge). As a result, as participants 'swim across the river' left to right, they will be 'pulled' in the correct direction to end up right in front of the St Francis Yacht Club adjacent to the swim exit. Hot Tip: For information on sighting during the swim, please view all the instructional videos on the Official Event Website.

Participants are directed multiple times to a series of instructional videos, including several regarding the SWIM: http://www.escapefromalcatraztriathlon.com/Race_Info/Race_Tips.htm

The RD offers a clinic that gives you a day of instruction and a practice swim in the bay.
http://www.escapefromalcatraztriathlon.com/...r/Escape_Academy.htm

More than half of the discussion at the 1 hour athete's meeting focused on the swim. The RD asked for a show of hands regarding who had watched the swim video. He then told everyone to go back to their rooms and watch the videos (again).

I did a blog post very every newsletter, mainly for myself (force me to read an interpret each newsletter). It was extremely beneficial information. The practice swim is more for locals or others who arrive early. I believe most people arrived on Friday.

Anybody else impressed with how fast pictures were posted? Less than 24 hours, the photos are in my inbox. I've waited a month for photos from races have the size. Granted the photos are insanely expensive, but of course I bought them all.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Elevation wrote:
I did completed the swim. Escape From Alcatraz was my first triathlon and first time in rough open water. I signed up for the race only a few months ago, on whim, through a charity bid, because I thought it would be a cool way to celebrate my 50th birthday. Plus gain some serious bragging rights to complete one of the world's most challenging triathlons where 80% of the participants are male and only 1% are in my age/gender group of females 50-54. But that kind of whimsical thinking may contribute to why triathlon deaths are on the rise...recreational athletes don't fully comprehend that this is not a staged thrill ride at an amusement park. It is something to seriously think through, research and more than sufficiently train for.

If I had known the valuable info in Oleander's post, I would have never put myself through the Escape's already challenging swim in these Winter conditions. After the race, I learned about the tragic death of a 46 year old participant. I haven't slept well since, as the brutal water conditions keep playing in my mind. I guess I'm allowing my fear to finally be released now. Somehow I kept from seriously panicking out there in the Bay. If I had known that someone died at the start of the swim, I would have never jumped off that boat. About 150 swimmers were plucked from the water and repositioned, 3 times the normal amount. 10 decided not to continue, whereas on a normal year only 3-4 make that call.

I'm not a strong swimmer, only having started Masters Swimming sessions a couple of months ago, and a month before that I couldn't even swim two pool laps without gasping for breath. If I was the race director, I wouldn't let someone like me get on the boat. But I figured that my mental and physical endurance training from marathon running would be sufficient to get away with only 3.5 months to learn how to ride a road racing bike with clipless pedals and swim in rough open water.

But swimming laps in a pool can not prepare you for being shoved around by the strong outgoing currents from the left and then slammed by the 6' swells formed by the 11 mph ocean winds coming in on your right. This information should be provided to the participants that morning so they were fully aware of what was out there and then make an informed decision about whether to continue or not. But the only thing we knew was that the water temperature was 51 and the air temp 52 (last year's race in June the water was 60 and air 70). I had no real idea what "rough" truly entailed under these unusually harsh conditions due to the race being held in winter instead of summer.

I'm sure that Ross Ehlinger initially thought the Escape was a fun and cool challenge, too. He probably planned to proudly show his finisher's medal to his three young boys. Instead, his wife had to witness his lifeless body on the dock while she cried "He said he could do it...", as first responders averted their eyes from the heart breaking scene. This could have been me and my family. Or yours.

So, can another tragedy like this be prevented? Perhaps requiring a signed certificate from your doctor saying that you have cleared a basic physical and appear to have the mental and physical ability to undergo such a demanding undertaking? Maybe a commitment from race organizers to not schedule races during the Winter's harsh swells and immobilizing cold? Proof that you've completed at least "x" amount of triathlons that involved open water swims? If this is your first tri, then a certificate from a swim program/workshop showing that you successfully engaged in an open water swim with currents and swells? The ability to clear a lottery and hand over $400 should not be the only firm requirement to engage in a potentially life threatening activity.


Just wanted to say thanks for sharing and glad you are here.

To Manofthewoods. I have been racing tris since 1985. I am not a beginner. My best IM swim times before shoulder and neck injuries were 54 and 56 minutes (56 minutes at IMC, so legit....54 in Roth). I'm not a novice nor "weak swimmer". Nevertheless, I am completely opposed to 2 things:


  • large mass starts
  • no swim warmup area

Like you, I need a long warmup. I prefer to ride my bike 20 minutes (if possible) from hotel to race venue to get my heart rate going in a benign environment....then ideally a swim warmup, but if I can't do a swim warmup a run warmup. A race like Alcatraz which I have no intention of over doing, I would not be able to do any of these.

I am yet to hear of anyone dying at the start of masters swim practice at the Y, but we always hear about guys dying at the start of triathlons. How come no one is dying at masters swim at the start of their morning swim? Why? I don't know, but no one starts masters swim in a full out sprint with 2000 people swimming over their back in cold water with a wetsuit on.

We can't get rid of the cold water part in racing, and we can't get rid of the "wetsuit part", but we can get rid of the 2000 people simultaneously and we can add warmup areas.

Is anyone aware of an athlete dying at the start of a swim in a no wetsuit race (maybe there are)? Personally I never have panic/hyperventilation without wetsuit, but I have had it with wetsuit.

Dev

IM Louisville 2011.

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [japarker24] [ In reply to ]
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japarker24 wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:

Is anyone aware of an athlete dying at the start of a swim in a no wetsuit race (maybe there are)? Personally I never have panic/hyperventilation without wetsuit, but I have had it with wetsuit.

Dev


IM Louisville 2011.


Philly 2010 http://articles.philly.com/...e-bike-248-mile-bike
Last edited by: WelshinPhilly: Mar 6, 13 13:14
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Is anyone aware of an athlete dying at the start of a swim in a no wetsuit race (maybe there are)? Personally I never have panic/hyperventilation without wetsuit, but I have had it with wetsuit. Dev

Sorry, Dev, but someone with your knowledge and experience should offer and explanation as to how a wetsuit might increase the risk of panic/hyperventilation. I am on record of agreeing with you. A wetsuit that is too tight in the torso probably does increase the work of breathing. The wetsuit used for racing might be tighter than the training wetsuit. Or, the wetsuit used in training might be tighter on RACE DAY, especially if we follow the feeding and hydration advice of pros like Lauren Goss (on her Facebook page).
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
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okay, one more question. is it only in the newsletters that you really find out how hard this race is? or during the entry process, or anytime pre-entry, do you think it's obvious enough how nonstandard and hard and weird and cold this swim is?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure if anyone has an exact copy of the lottery registration form, but I am pretty sure there is mention of the race's difficulty in the form itself, and positive that it requests you to provide race results from recent races that indicate that you are qualified to participate.

If you read the Lottery FAQ on the race site, they explain that the lottery is not equal odds, entrants who have completed Escape a number of times before are given greater priority. This could be twofold, one to reward past participants, but has the added benefit of ensuring those people know what they are in for. Unclear how much, if at all, other races listed in the lottery form qualifications section matter.

Lastly, from the FAQ, plainly listed on the home page:


Quote:
Is this a good race for first-timers?
A: This race is extremely challenging and we do not recommend for first-time triathletes unless you have experience in similar disciplines, are in excellent physical condition, or have been working out with an experienced trainer or coach. We recommend attending an Escape Academy Clinic if you are training for this as a first-time triathlon or even if you are experience but have never done this particular race before.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
okay, one more question. is it only in the newsletters that you really find out how hard this race is? or during the entry process, or anytime pre-entry, do you think it's obvious enough how nonstandard and hard and weird and cold this swim is?

The entry process did have athletes enter in swim times from previous races. However, from my perspective this didn't really highlight any danger of the swim, just that the swim was difficult, which we all know, otherwise what fun is the race. We all know that the swim is different than a 'normal' tri swim. The newsletters highlight the differences but don't highlight the 'intensity' of these differences. I knew from the newsletters that there was a current. That the water was cold. I didn't really think about rough waters (waves) so I was surprised to see the whitecaps in the middle of the bay. Again, the newsletter doesn't prepare you for the shock of hitting 51 degree water with waves crashing over your head.

The newsletters could have added some information about how the body reacts to such a shock. For me that was dizziness and lost of equilibrium.

The actual jump in the water part was fine. The volunteer pushed me off the boat so I went in kinda sideways instead of feet first. I wasn't hesitating, I just stepped up, looked for a spot where no bodies were, but next thing I knew I was in the air.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [guppie58] [ In reply to ]
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"the newsletter doesn't prepare you for the shock of hitting 51 degree water with waves crashing over your head."

the newsletter tried to prepare you for the shock of
52 degree water with waves crashing over your head. to that end, it failed by 1 degree. otherwise, and i don't mean to be flippant, because i'm entirely serious: what would have prepared you? i ask because if there is text that folks like you can provide that would do a better job of describing what it really does feel like, maybe this could be a model for what this and other races write or say to describe to prospective entrants really what's in store for them.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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"This race is extremely challenging and we do not recommend for first-time triathletes unless you have experience in similar disciplines, are in excellent physical condition, or have been working out with an experienced trainer or coach"

So they are saying they recommend the race for first-time triathletes if you are in excellent physical condition. Personally, I disagree with that recommendation.

From pictures I've seen, that swim course is more than challenging - it's dangerous.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
okay, one more question. is it only in the newsletters that you really find out how hard this race is? or during the entry process, or anytime pre-entry, do you think it's obvious enough how nonstandard and hard and weird and cold this swim is?


My recollection is consistent with tgarson.

tgarson wrote:
Not sure if anyone has an exact copy of the lottery registration form, but I am pretty sure there is mention of the race's difficulty in the form itself, and positive that it requests you to provide race results from recent races that indicate that you are qualified to participate.


I recall that the lottery application requires each participant to acknowledge the difficulty of the swim. I remember listing prior race results and making a written statement regarding why I was capable of completing the swim.

There were also at least four waivers, each color coded with multiple pages specifying the risks of participating.

Edit: spell check
Last edited by: GreatScott: Mar 6, 13 14:07
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I may be biased because I live in SF, but I do think they go out of the way to inform those who sign up that the race is different. They also tell you about unloading 2000 people from the boat in 6 minutes. My wife and I have both done Alcatraz triathlons before (first Escape for both of us) and she almost bailed on the race BECAUSE she knew the risks and didn't think she was sufficiently prepared for swimming in the cold/open water.

We stocked up on neoprene swim socks and ear plugs and headed out to Aquatic Park a few extra times to make sure she was comfortable. We didn't even swim far, just paddled around for 1/2 hour to be used to the cold water. Once she felt comfortable in the bay, she decided to race. Didn't have the best swim and had to get towed up-stream, but she said at no point was she fearing for her life - just fearing an extra long run to T1 if she missed the beach.

I do have to agree with Travis that it is pretty irresponsible to attempt this race without even entering the bay. Aquatic Park was packed Saturday before the race and those people weren't training. They were practicing and preparing themselves for the water on Sunday.

One thing I will say is that on race morning, they may want to consider making it easier for people to back out if they feel unprepared/overwhelmed. I didn't see any area to go if you wanted to ride back to the pier or abandon the race. Instead the intercom was booming with "Now is not the time to be mentally weak! Get to the edge and jump. Now is not the time to be mentally weak!"

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [bmas] [ In reply to ]
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"So they are saying they recommend the race for first-time triathletes if you are in excellent physical condition."

yes, i caught that. it is breathtakingly bad text. my read, actually what they're saying is that they recommend the race even for first timers who are NOT in excellent physical condition as long as that unfit first timer is under an experienced trainer or coach. this is the one glaringly horrible phrase in what is otherwise a stellar set of preparatory videos and emails.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
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all of the fellow participants I talked to during/after the race said that it wasn't the cold that surprised them, but the choppy conditions.

The tone from the race meeting and everything I read online indicated it could be a tough/rough swim.

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Callin'] [ In reply to ]
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Callin' wrote:
all of the fellow participants I talked to during/after the race said that it wasn't the cold that surprised them, but the choppy conditions.

The tone from the race meeting and everything I read online indicated it could be a tough/rough swim.

I agree with both of those statements. I expected a tough (cold and potentially rough) swim, and that is what I got. And I found the chop to be a much larger factor than the cold.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
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Agree with this. I actually did the swim slower once with a slack tide and more swells. The chop was much more difficult to deal with mentally and physically. Being unsure if your breath was going to be water or air changes the way you swim/thrash.

I don't think the cold was a factor for those who were prepared. I'd take 50 degrees and calm over 75 degrees with the chop we had on Sunday.

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [guppie58] [ In reply to ]
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guppie58 wrote:
Slowman wrote:
"Prior to the race, I searched endlessly for useful videos, but most footage was shot from far away and last year’s water conditions appeared much calmer"

i would like to know the following, from you and anyone else who did the race. eric gilsenen has produced and narrated a fabulous set of videos over the
years that show the alcatraz race. in those videos i see some pretty rough water. not appreciably less rough than the water from this past weekend. i'll concede that the water was rougher than in years past, however, the videos i have seen seem to me to display the difficulty of this race pretty well. except for the fact that 51 degrees is an expected, not anomalous, water temperature for this time of year and i don't see anywhere where this was mentioned on the website.

however, my question is this, for all who did the race: were you told in pre-race emails, or anywhere, about these excellent videos that do exist describing the race and its conditions?


As a first timer, I watched ALL the videos on the website and any I could find on YouTube. I was ready for cold rough waters. I knew I had to swim 'across the river'. Once I dove into the water, all that went out the door. The first 30 seconds of pain as my balls raced north to snuggle behind the heat of my heart. Swimming across the river would be great if I could have seen across the river. Again, all my training was in a pool (live in MI). I haven't been in open water since September. The challenging conditions I was prepared for turned out to be significantly more challenging than I was expecting. It was just more than physically challenging, it was a mental beat down. Stay calm, focus, sight, stroke, repeat. It was one hell of a mental challenge.

In hindsight, there are some things the videos don't teach/show: how spread out everybody is, what to expect when you hit the water, difficulty of sighting, etc. Much of that is explained in paper, but many things sound great on paper but not very close to real life. Another thing I wasn't prepared or under estimated was the wait on the boat. I wish they stressed nutrition during the wait better, but only because many people are new to this event. It's my own fault for not understanding it, but there were so many things going on. I sat on the boat for over 90 minutes with no nutrition. I accept responsibility for that, I was just focused on other aspects of the race.

Side note: WTF does this race have against GU gel? There was a GU booth but they didn't sell their own product. The ONLY vendor that sold GU sold the blocks, not actual gel. I didn't bring any GU from MI because every race I've ever done had GU available. I couldn't find GU gel anywhere. My Walgreens up the road in MI sells GU gel. Not the Walgreens in SF. I've been to smaller grass-roots races that have had more vendors than this race had. I could have brought stuff from my closet that I don't wear and have more products than the 'athlete village' had. I've never seen such a lack of nutrition from a race that had an international crowd. The website mentioned GU and other vendors so I figured I could buy most of my nutrition there. The GU vendor didn't sell their product. WTF? I think the website oversold the 'athlete village'. It was a joke.

Somebody above criticized those who were 'complaining'. There is a big difference between complaining and sharing feedback. Just because somebody says it was harder than expected, etc doesn't mean they are complaining. It has nothing to do with complaining, it's just sharing experience versus expectations. I have zero complaints about the swim, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to share how the swim kicked my ass. The only complaint I have was the 'athlete village'. Again, that was pretty pathetic.

1. I'm glad you brought shoes, since the athlete village probably didn't have any.
2. I'm sorry that you couldn't find any GU gel in a city of 800k.
3. I'm surprised you didn't jump into the bay the day before the event like so many do. It would have prepared you for the shock.

Now to address the larger conversation...

I had 2 ironman events under my belt, yet I was scared to death of this swim when I did it last year. My training was almost entirely swim focused. My buddy in Seattle trained in 45 degree water to prepare himself. Everyone knows the difficulty of the swim. The race directors did more to warn, prepare and teach than any other event ever has, in my personal experience.

This is a terrible tragedy and I've felt extremely sad about it, probably because he's from ATX and I did the race last year. However, I must defend the race directors, and I'm put off by guppie58's whining about goo and lack of tee shirts. Go do a R-n-R half marathon, if you want a great show at registration; and shut up about what wasn't on the videos. They were terrific.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Pedalhead] [ In reply to ]
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Pedalhead wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Is anyone aware of an athlete dying at the start of a swim in a no wetsuit race (maybe there are)? Personally I never have panic/hyperventilation without wetsuit, but I have had it with wetsuit. Dev


Sorry, Dev, but someone with your knowledge and experience should offer and explanation as to how a wetsuit might increase the risk of panic/hyperventilation. I am on record of agreeing with you. A wetsuit that is too tight in the torso probably does increase the work of breathing. The wetsuit used for racing might be tighter than the training wetsuit. Or, the wetsuit used in training might be tighter on RACE DAY, especially if we follow the feeding and hydration advice of pros like Lauren Goss (on her Facebook page).

That's actually why I said, "personally". And I've done everything in my power to get suits that fit well with low necklines and so on. You're right, I have a lot more experience in triathlons than most. If I have my count correct, I'm over 300 tris over 27 years. The panic attacks have been rare but what is interesting is that they happen more often in my mid to late 40's than in my teens, 20's and 30's. I also note that most of the folks dying are middle age, where we probably still have the same urge to go hard as in our 20's but don't have the same physiology. It seems that the incidence of people dying in swims in their 50's, 60's, 70's is a lot lower, and I'm inclined to feel that these older gents just start easier, but it could be because there is just less of them there on race day.

Anyway, never had a panic attack in a no wetsuit race (nor come close to it). There is something about cold water, a wetsuit, and a crowded race start that create the perfect storm for the panic attacks to happen.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [japarker24] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks...I knew somewhere in the back of my mind this had sadly happened. My memory is usually pretty good, but there is a period from mid July 2011 to end of Aug 2011, where it is hard for me to retrieve events (I had a traumatic head injury in July in a bike crash and Louisville fell into that time frame where lots of things were a blur)
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"the newsletter doesn't prepare you for the shock of hitting 51 degree water with waves crashing over your head."

the newsletter tried to prepare you for the shock of
52 degree water with waves crashing over your head. to that end, it failed by 1 degree. otherwise, and i don't mean to be flippant, because i'm entirely serious: what would have prepared you? i ask because if there is text that folks like you can provide that would do a better job of describing what it really does feel like, maybe this could be a model for what this and other races write or say to describe to prospective entrants really what's in store for them.

I don't know how I would have prepared differently. It's a fair question. I knew going into the race the conditions. Like many participants, I am coming in from another state, thus there are a ton of other things going through my mind to prepare. This is my first time traveling this far for a race. The conditions of the swim were at the front of my mind, but I never really thought of the impact these conditions would have on my ability to swim (not sure that makes sense).

I didn't wear a heavy head cap since the newsletter said the neck strap and covering your ears is bad.
I did buy swim socks due to their recommendation.
I did 'try' to swim across the river.
I did look at satellite photos to see the best things to site.
I did stare at the shoreline while on boat looking for things to site.

I felt like I did everything the newsletter recommended. I took the newsletter very serious. But once I hit the water, the cold occupied my thoughts. My lack of equilibrium made things harder. I would have like to know if there was anything I could have done differently to prevent the dizzy and lack of equilibrium (nutrition, etc).

The newsletter could stress the reaction your body will have to the shock of cold water and how to deal with it. Meaning, pick a direction to swim and just swim for a bit until your body settles to the shock. I tried to get my bearings while fighting dizzy head. I eventually just swam in hopes it would go away and it did eventually.

The newsletter should stress that sighting is VERY difficult with the waves. Make sure you plan a site line that is high enough so you can see it.

The newsletter should mention that finding a support kayak is difficult with the waves. I didn't need one, but passed a few people who were yelling for help. I stopped, looked around with them and didn't see any. Eventually saw one but they were pretty far away. But they did come and help the swimmer eventually.

The newsletter should stress the isolation of the swim. I rarely saw another swimmer. Normally I'm use to having to craw over people.

The newsletter should stress nutrition while sitting on the boat.

In hindsight these are all items that I take responsibility for. However, many factors caused me to not think about or really consider the items: traveling to the race, time spent talking on boat, thinking about bike and run, etc. Other than the long boat ride, I went into my routine of thinking about swim bike run. However, there is nothing routine about this swim and I loss sight of that fact.

I also really wasn't expecting to ditch my swim bag prior to boarding the boat. They gave us the option to bring it on the boat but that it would be a long time before we'd get the bag back. I was extremely confused on what to do. I ditched my bag prior to boarding, but in hindsight would take it with me next time (packed with nutrition).

This is a swim where the only real prep is experience.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [kjmcawesome] [ In reply to ]
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kjmcawesome wrote:
I may be biased because I live in SF, but I do think they go out of the way to inform those who sign up that the race is different. They also tell you about unloading 2000 people from the boat in 6 minutes. My wife and I have both done Alcatraz triathlons before (first Escape for both of us) and she almost bailed on the race BECAUSE she knew the risks and didn't think she was sufficiently prepared for swimming in the cold/open water.

We stocked up on neoprene swim socks and ear plugs and headed out to Aquatic Park a few extra times to make sure she was comfortable. We didn't even swim far, just paddled around for 1/2 hour to be used to the cold water. Once she felt comfortable in the bay, she decided to race. Didn't have the best swim and had to get towed up-stream, but she said at no point was she fearing for her life - just fearing an extra long run to T1 if she missed the beach.

I do have to agree with Travis that it is pretty irresponsible to attempt this race without even entering the bay. Aquatic Park was packed Saturday before the race and those people weren't training. They were practicing and preparing themselves for the water on Sunday.

One thing I will say is that on race morning, they may want to consider making it easier for people to back out if they feel unprepared/overwhelmed. I didn't see any area to go if you wanted to ride back to the pier or abandon the race. Instead the intercom was booming with "Now is not the time to be mentally weak! Get to the edge and jump. Now is not the time to be mentally weak!"

I was there with my wife so it was a semi-vacation. She told me to go swim and I should have. I also should have done a short run on Saturday, however I felt guilty leaving her. I should have just woken up and gone to Marina Green and did a 30 minute swim. It would have almost zero impact on my time with her. She got on my case about it and she was right.

Probable something else the newsletter should really stress is getting your ass in the water on Saturday even if it's just to test your body's reaction. This should be a highly stressed item.

I will say I had a nice little bonus on Saturday. My wife and I were sitting on the bench watching the bay (waiting for 1pm meeting) when this girl walked by. My wife made the comment how she had a rock hard body. The girl then took out a wetsuit, stripped naked right in front of us and put the wetsuit on. She had a sport bra on but nothing downstairs. She then entered the water and swam around for a bit. She then got out, repeated the process, then walked back to athlete village. My wife and I both confirmed that she did in deed have a rock hard body. It was funny.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
Quote Reply
Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [guppie58] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
guppie58 wrote:
kjmcawesome wrote:
I may be biased because I live in SF, but I do think they go out of the way to inform those who sign up that the race is different. They also tell you about unloading 2000 people from the boat in 6 minutes. My wife and I have both done Alcatraz triathlons before (first Escape for both of us) and she almost bailed on the race BECAUSE she knew the risks and didn't think she was sufficiently prepared for swimming in the cold/open water.

We stocked up on neoprene swim socks and ear plugs and headed out to Aquatic Park a few extra times to make sure she was comfortable. We didn't even swim far, just paddled around for 1/2 hour to be used to the cold water. Once she felt comfortable in the bay, she decided to race. Didn't have the best swim and had to get towed up-stream, but she said at no point was she fearing for her life - just fearing an extra long run to T1 if she missed the beach.

I do have to agree with Travis that it is pretty irresponsible to attempt this race without even entering the bay. Aquatic Park was packed Saturday before the race and those people weren't training. They were practicing and preparing themselves for the water on Sunday.

One thing I will say is that on race morning, they may want to consider making it easier for people to back out if they feel unprepared/overwhelmed. I didn't see any area to go if you wanted to ride back to the pier or abandon the race. Instead the intercom was booming with "Now is not the time to be mentally weak! Get to the edge and jump. Now is not the time to be mentally weak!"




I was there with my wife so it was a semi-vacation. She told me to go swim and I should have. I also should have done a short run on Saturday, however I felt guilty leaving her. I should have just woken up and gone to Marina Green and did a 30 minute swim. It would have almost zero impact on my time with her. She got on my case about it and she was right.

Probable something else the newsletter should really stress is getting your ass in the water on Saturday even if it's just to test your body's reaction. This should be a highly stressed item.

I will say I had a nice little bonus on Saturday. My wife and I were sitting on the bench watching the bay (waiting for 1pm meeting) when this girl walked by. My wife made the comment how she had a rock hard body. The girl then took out a wetsuit, stripped naked right in front of us and put the wetsuit on. She had a sport bra on but nothing downstairs. She then entered the water and swam around for a bit. She then got out, repeated the process, then walked back to athlete village. My wife and I both confirmed that she did in deed have a rock hard body. It was funny.


pics or it didnt happen..

_________________________________________________
Last edited by: uncle_evan: Mar 6, 13 15:24
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [bhobbs] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bhobbs wrote:
guppie58 wrote:
Slowman wrote:
"Prior to the race, I searched endlessly for useful videos, but most footage was shot from far away and last year’s water conditions appeared much calmer"

i would like to know the following, from you and anyone else who did the race. eric gilsenen has produced and narrated a fabulous set of videos over the
years that show the alcatraz race. in those videos i see some pretty rough water. not appreciably less rough than the water from this past weekend. i'll concede that the water was rougher than in years past, however, the videos i have seen seem to me to display the difficulty of this race pretty well. except for the fact that 51 degrees is an expected, not anomalous, water temperature for this time of year and i don't see anywhere where this was mentioned on the website.

however, my question is this, for all who did the race: were you told in pre-race emails, or anywhere, about these excellent videos that do exist describing the race and its conditions?


As a first timer, I watched ALL the videos on the website and any I could find on YouTube. I was ready for cold rough waters. I knew I had to swim 'across the river'. Once I dove into the water, all that went out the door. The first 30 seconds of pain as my balls raced north to snuggle behind the heat of my heart. Swimming across the river would be great if I could have seen across the river. Again, all my training was in a pool (live in MI). I haven't been in open water since September. The challenging conditions I was prepared for turned out to be significantly more challenging than I was expecting. It was just more than physically challenging, it was a mental beat down. Stay calm, focus, sight, stroke, repeat. It was one hell of a mental challenge.

In hindsight, there are some things the videos don't teach/show: how spread out everybody is, what to expect when you hit the water, difficulty of sighting, etc. Much of that is explained in paper, but many things sound great on paper but not very close to real life. Another thing I wasn't prepared or under estimated was the wait on the boat. I wish they stressed nutrition during the wait better, but only because many people are new to this event. It's my own fault for not understanding it, but there were so many things going on. I sat on the boat for over 90 minutes with no nutrition. I accept responsibility for that, I was just focused on other aspects of the race.

Side note: WTF does this race have against GU gel? There was a GU booth but they didn't sell their own product. The ONLY vendor that sold GU sold the blocks, not actual gel. I didn't bring any GU from MI because every race I've ever done had GU available. I couldn't find GU gel anywhere. My Walgreens up the road in MI sells GU gel. Not the Walgreens in SF. I've been to smaller grass-roots races that have had more vendors than this race had. I could have brought stuff from my closet that I don't wear and have more products than the 'athlete village' had. I've never seen such a lack of nutrition from a race that had an international crowd. The website mentioned GU and other vendors so I figured I could buy most of my nutrition there. The GU vendor didn't sell their product. WTF? I think the website oversold the 'athlete village'. It was a joke.

Somebody above criticized those who were 'complaining'. There is a big difference between complaining and sharing feedback. Just because somebody says it was harder than expected, etc doesn't mean they are complaining. It has nothing to do with complaining, it's just sharing experience versus expectations. I have zero complaints about the swim, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to share how the swim kicked my ass. The only complaint I have was the 'athlete village'. Again, that was pretty pathetic.


1. I'm glad you brought shoes, since the athlete village probably didn't have any.
2. I'm sorry that you couldn't find any GU gel in a city of 800k.
3. I'm surprised you didn't jump into the bay the day before the event like so many do. It would have prepared you for the shock.

Now to address the larger conversation...

I had 2 ironman events under my belt, yet I was scared to death of this swim when I did it last year. My training was almost entirely swim focused. My buddy in Seattle trained in 45 degree water to prepare himself. Everyone knows the difficulty of the swim. The race directors did more to warn, prepare and teach than any other event ever has, in my personal experience.

This is a terrible tragedy and I've felt extremely sad about it, probably because he's from ATX and I did the race last year. However, I must defend the race directors, and I'm put off by guppie58's whining about goo and lack of tee shirts. Go do a R-n-R half marathon, if you want a great show at registration; and shut up about what wasn't on the videos. They were terrific.

Why do you have to respond like that? I'm not whining about anything. Multiple times I said I take responsibility for it. Did you not catch that part or were you so excited to get off a response like this that you over-looked it? Also, please point out where I whine about shoes or a t-shirt. While you're at it, point out where I said the videos were bad. I'll wait for your response to the shoes, t-shirts and videos.

You appear to be somebody who doesn't handle constructive criticism too well. That is a sign of a weak mind. Slowman is asking for feedback on what could be added to newsletters. I'm responding to that. If your weak mind cannot handle that type of dialog then I suggest you leave this thread instead of trying to derail it off subject.

Again, please point out where I make a comment about shoes or lack of t-shirts. Also point out where I say the videos were bad. Did I also put any blame on the RD of this race? I look forward to your response to these questions.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [guppie58] [ In reply to ]
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I'm an RD of a local race and I love all feedback. Good bad and ugly. It's the only way to improve or evolve with the race community. I would not want to participate in an event where an RD did not care about feedback from the racers.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [bhobbs] [ In reply to ]
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For those of you who did Kona and Alcatraz, can you compare the water conditions, in general? Txs

Formely stef32
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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It is still better than Outside magazine's recommending this for first-timers:
http://www.outsideonline.com/...p;utm_medium=xmlfeed

That article just makes me mad because of how dumb it is.

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Travis R] [ In reply to ]
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Travis R wrote:
It is still better than Outside magazine's recommending this for first-timers:
http://www.outsideonline.com/...p;utm_medium=xmlfeed

That article just makes me mad because of how dumb it is.

That's like the Warden telling the prisoners not to worry about the swim.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [guppie58] [ In reply to ]
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Are you whining now, professor?
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [bhobbs] [ In reply to ]
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bhobbs wrote:
Are you whining now, professor?

Nope, just waiting for you to substantiate your statements. You made the statements. I called you out on them. All you are doing now is avoiding it via trolling. Own up to it or sit this one out.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [guppie58] [ In reply to ]
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RE: GU
No gel (unless it was in a flask) was allowed because much of the bike and run course takes place on GG National Recreation Area and I believe that in order for the event to be staged there, the organizers had to ban gel packets because of the litter it leaves behind. Which, of course, doesn’t make sense because everything else from GU Chomps, Powerbars or Jelly Belly Sport Beans also come in little flyaway packaging and were allowed. All of these can produce litter as well. I don’t know if any race official would actually penalize a participant caught sucking a gel packet, but I saw plenty of people doing so anyway.

Re: “someone criticized those who were 'complaining'. There is a big difference between complaining and sharing feedback.

Thank you. I enjoy reading personal accounts from a variety of people and their diverse and unique experiences. I devoured every forum posting about the Escape that I could find prior to doing that race and it was helpful to get first person accounts. The person's posting who actually did the race is the most valuable to me, not the person sitting behind a computer who wasn’t even there, yet who feels the need to set everyone else straight.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Elevation] [ In reply to ]
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Elevation wrote:
RE: GU
No gel (unless it was in a flask) was allowed because much of the bike and run course takes place on GG National Recreation Area and I believe that in order for the event to be staged there, the organizers had to ban gel packets because of the litter it leaves behind. Which, of course, doesn’t make sense because everything else from GU Chomps, Powerbars or Jelly Belly Sport Beans also come in little flyaway packaging and were allowed. All of these can produce litter as well. I don’t know if any race official would actually penalize a participant caught sucking a gel packet, but I saw plenty of people doing so anyway.

Re: “someone criticized those who were 'complaining'. There is a big difference between complaining and sharing feedback.

Thank you. I enjoy reading personal accounts from a variety of people and their diverse and unique experiences. I devoured every forum posting about the Escape that I could find prior to doing that race and it was helpful to get first person accounts. The person's posting who actually did the race is the most valuable to me, not the person sitting behind a computer who wasn’t even there, yet who feels the need to set everyone else straight.

Interesting feedback on the Gel. It would make sense why there was no Gel there, although like you said, Chomps bag is actually bigger.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Elevation] [ In reply to ]
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Dan,
as now having done the race for the first time here are the few recommendations I would make. 1. Require everyone to be checked in at aquatic park on Friday or Saturday and get in the water for at least 15-20 minutes. I did 15 min Fri and Saturday and the cold on Sunday was not an issue. 2. Do not allow first timmers into this race, that is simple. 3. A video with a Go Pro on a boat/kayak/swimmer etc of the swim would be awesome. The provided videos were good but how your sighting progresses in real time would be amazing. Otherwise this race is extremely well done, but things can always be improved.

PS: Why do the best swimmers in the race (the pros) get a lead boat with a giant orange buoy on it to lead them in. They should have to sight off the shore like everyone else IMHO.

PPS: Are you sure that gels were not allowed. I was never told that Gels were not allowed, I had them tapped to my bike and used them. Littering gel packs or anything else except at aid stations is a penalty in any race so should not be different for this one.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [dwgrenle] [ In reply to ]
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dwgrenle wrote:
Are you sure that gels were not allowed. I was never told that Gels were not allowed

This was addressed in the Nutrition Newsletter.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [guppie58] [ In reply to ]
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guppie58 wrote:
bhobbs wrote:
Are you whining now, professor?


Nope, just waiting for you to substantiate your statements. You made the statements. I called you out on them. All you are doing now is avoiding it via trolling. Own up to it or sit this one out.


You're a very literal person, aren't you? I can tell that you need everything clearly explained in comprehensive detail, but I'm busy and I can't spend all week with you on this. This is my last attempt:

My quip about forgetting your shoes was related to your lack of preparedness (for the cold water, gels, nutrition on the boat). Had you forgotten shoes, would you have been upset because they weren't selling them at the athlete's village? The same athlete's village that was "a joke", probably lacked your style of tee shirt as well. I'm glad you didn't forget shoes, because we know you wouldn't have been able to find some if they weren't in that joke of a village. The idea of you trying to figure out how to put them on without a detailed video is more than I can bear to imagine.

You criticized the video for not showing the difficult sighting or what to expect when you jumped in. I think they were fully sufficient. I guess they could shoot videos in every possible weather scenario, but that still might not be enough for you. Would a full 90 minute feature directed by James Cameron do it?

Finally, you didn't literally blame the RD, but criticisms of the race are essentially criticisms of the RD. Just like my criticisms about your whining is a criticism of you as a person.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [bhobbs] [ In reply to ]
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bhobbs wrote:
guppie58 wrote:
bhobbs wrote:
Are you whining now, professor?


Nope, just waiting for you to substantiate your statements. You made the statements. I called you out on them. All you are doing now is avoiding it via trolling. Own up to it or sit this one out.


You're a very literal person, aren't you? I can tell that you need everything clearly explained in comprehensive detail, but I'm busy and I can't spend all week with you on this. This is my last attempt:

My quip about forgetting your shoes was related to your lack of preparedness (for the cold water, gels, nutrition on the boat). Had you forgotten shoes, would you have been upset because they weren't selling them at the athlete's village? The same athlete's village that was "a joke", probably lacked your style of tee shirt as well. I'm glad you didn't forget shoes, because we know you wouldn't have been able to find some if they weren't in that joke of a village. The idea of you trying to figure out how to put them on without a detailed video is more than I can bear to imagine.

You criticized the video for not showing the difficult sighting or what to expect when you jumped in. I think they were fully sufficient. I guess they could shoot videos in every possible weather scenario, but that still might not be enough for you. Would a full 90 minute feature directed by James Cameron do it?

Finally, you didn't literally blame the RD, but criticisms of the race are essentially criticisms of the RD. Just like my criticisms about your whining is a criticism of you as a person.

The writing style is easily 2nd grade at best. Does your mommy and daddy know your on the computer? Stop trolling.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
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GreatScott wrote:
dwgrenle wrote:
Are you sure that gels were not allowed. I was never told that Gels were not allowed


This was addressed in the Nutrition Newsletter.

I went back and looked and sure enough it is:

Quote:
A note about gels... We do NOT allow gels on course. This is due to strict rules in the local, State and National Parks where we swim, bike, and run. We do allow more solid items such as Energy Chomps and Energy Bars, but there is NO LITTERING on course and if you are caught, you are subject to a disqualification. Please help us keep San Francisco clean so they will continue to allow up to hold this race in their beautiful city.

It's right after their discussion of Muscle Milk. I skipped past the two advertisements since I don't use either product. Thus I skipped right over the mention of gels. Wonder if that's why the local Walgreens or the two bike shops I stopped at don't carry the gels. Granted the bike shops were more geared toward rental crowd. The GU vendor guy wasn't aware of it because he's the one who gave me the location of two bike shops to see if they carried it. I guess it all worked out in the end. Thanks for pointing that out.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [guppie58] [ In reply to ]
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Ha ha. It's actually "do your mommy and daddy know..."
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Elevation] [ In reply to ]
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Elevation wrote:
I did completed the swim. Escape From Alcatraz was my first triathlon and first time in rough open water. I signed up for the race only a few months ago, on whim, through a charity bid, because I thought it would be a cool way to celebrate my 50th birthday. Plus gain some serious bragging rights to complete one of the world's most challenging triathlons where 80% of the participants are male and only 1% are in my age/gender group of females 50-54. But that kind of whimsical thinking may contribute to why triathlon deaths are on the rise...recreational athletes don't fully comprehend that this is not a staged thrill ride at an amusement park. It is something to seriously think through, research and more than sufficiently train for.

If I had known the valuable info in Oleander's post, I would have never put myself through the Escape's already challenging swim in these Winter conditions. After the race, I learned about the tragic death of a 46 year old participant. I haven't slept well since, as the brutal water conditions keep playing in my mind. I guess I'm allowing my fear to finally be released now. Somehow I kept from seriously panicking out there in the Bay. If I had known that someone died at the start of the swim, I would have never jumped off that boat. About 150 swimmers were plucked from the water and repositioned, 3 times the normal amount. 10 decided not to continue, whereas on a normal year only 3-4 make that call.

I'm not a strong swimmer, only having started Masters Swimming sessions a couple of months ago, and a month before that I couldn't even swim two pool laps without gasping for breath. If I was the race director, I wouldn't let someone like me get on the boat. But I figured that my mental and physical endurance training from marathon running would be sufficient to get away with only 3.5 months to learn how to ride a road racing bike with clipless pedals and swim in rough open water.

But swimming laps in a pool can not prepare you for being shoved around by the strong outgoing currents from the left and then slammed by the 6' swells formed by the 11 mph ocean winds coming in on your right. This information should be provided to the participants that morning so they were fully aware of what was out there and then make an informed decision about whether to continue or not. But the only thing we knew was that the water temperature was 51 and the air temp 52 (last year's race in June the water was 60 and air 70). I had no real idea what "rough" truly entailed under these unusually harsh conditions due to the race being held in winter instead of summer.

I'm sure that Ross Ehlinger initially thought the Escape was a fun and cool challenge, too. He probably planned to proudly show his finisher's medal to his three young boys. Instead, his wife had to witness his lifeless body on the dock while she cried "He said he could do it...", as first responders averted their eyes from the heart breaking scene. This could have been me and my family. Or yours.

So, can another tragedy like this be prevented? Perhaps requiring a signed certificate from your doctor saying that you have cleared a basic physical and appear to have the mental and physical ability to undergo such a demanding undertaking? Maybe a commitment from race organizers to not schedule races during the Winter's harsh swells and immobilizing cold? Proof that you've completed at least "x" amount of triathlons that involved open water swims? If this is your first tri, then a certificate from a swim program/workshop showing that you successfully engaged in an open water swim with currents and swells? The ability to clear a lottery and hand over $400 should not be the only firm requirement to engage in a potentially life threatening activity.

While I appreciate you candor, I don't understand the end of your post. Are you implying someone else should keep you from this irresponsible act? I am speaking from the position of a person who lost a close loved-one (my BIL) from a sudden cardiac death (after a 10k race), so I am in deep sympathy with the family of the man who died. However, how far does a race director have to go to protect those who have blocked out all warnings of potential danger.

If you talked about your ambitions to do this race with anyone, based on your limited triathlon and OWS training, and they encouraged you, please tell them not to provide that advice for anyone again! They probably did advise against it, but just like the race directors warnings, your 'whimsical thinking' possibly blocked this out of consideration. I am glad you are still around to tell of your experience, but it should be a story of personal responsibility, not how someone else has to protect us from ourselves.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [stef32] [ In reply to ]
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stef32 wrote:
For those of you who did Kona and Alcatraz, can you compare the water conditions, in general? Txs

I did Kona in 2009 and Alcatraz on Saturday.
There is no comparison.
Kona just isn't very choppy and is certainly not cold.

Alcatraz was the first time I've panicked in a swim and I'm a 1hr ironman swimmer.
Certainly the risk of swim deaths was on my mind before we jumped off the boat as I've recently discussed this with Dan on the cardiologist thread.

As many others have said, we had expected the cold but the chop caught us off guard. I swallowed a lot of water in the first couple hundred meters and became nauseous so I decided to reset my expectations. I sat up, and breast stroked for a bit until things calmed down. Eventually I hit my stride and was able to swim to shore on my own in 37 mins.

If you weren't a strong swimmer you would have had a hell of a time making the beach.

As others have suggested there really should be several "sighting" boats with orange buoys, as the only one available was pacing the pros.

Otherwise I have to say I really enjoyed this race and would love to do it again.

As for Ross Ehlinger, my thoughts are with his family and certainly his death is devastating to the triathlon community at large.
However, as far as I know the cause of his death has not yet been identified. Certainly a heart attack is a possibility, but this is often the default explanation when someone dies suddenly and unexpectedly.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Larbot] [ In reply to ]
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Larbot wrote:
stef32 wrote:
For those of you who did Kona and Alcatraz, can you compare the water conditions, in general? Txs


I did Kona in 2009 and Alcatraz on Saturday.
There is no comparison.
Kona just isn't very choppy and is certainly not cold.

Alcatraz was the first time I've panicked in a swim and I'm a 1hr ironman swimmer.
Certainly the risk of swim deaths was on my mind before we jumped off the boat as I've recently discussed this with Dan on the cardiologist thread.

As many others have said, we had expected the cold but the chop caught us off guard. I swallowed a lot of water in the first couple hundred meters and became nauseous so I decided to reset my expectations. I sat up, and breast stroked for a bit until things calmed down. Eventually I hit my stride and was able to swim to shore on my own in 37 mins.

If you weren't a strong swimmer you would have had a hell of a time making the beach.

As others have suggested there really should be several "sighting" boats with orange buoys, as the only one available was pacing the pros.

Otherwise I have to say I really enjoyed this race and would love to do it again.

As for Ross Ehlinger, my thoughts are with his family and certainly his death is devastating to the triathlon community at large.
However, as far as I know the cause of his death has not yet been identified. Certainly a heart attack is a possibility, but this is often the default explanation when someone dies suddenly and unexpectedly.

No comparison. Kona is warm, fairly calm, you can see the bottom for almost the entire swim, and you are only a few hundred yards from shore. The tough part of Kona is the boxing match when the canon goes off.
Alcatraz is a lot more intimidating. There's no going back once you jump in, the water is shockingly cold, the currents can be tricky, and with the chop you often can't see any other swimmers.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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deaths in triathlon are always sad as is the case with most any death.

But I bet more people died sitting on their couch eating potato chips than did in races that day.

The one guarente in life is that nobody gets out alive.

I prefer to go in a triahtlon when I'm going to go.

The efforts to learn from these events and try to minimize them is a noble one. But they will continue to happen no matter what we do. If you aren't ready to take that risk, go sit on your couch and take that one.

FishHog
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Larbot] [ In reply to ]
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Larbot wrote:
stef32 wrote:

Alcatraz was the first time I've panicked in a swim and I'm a 1hr ironman swimmer.
Certainly the risk of swim deaths was on my mind before we jumped off the boat as I've recently discussed this with Dan on the cardiologist thread.

As many others have said, we had expected the cold but the chop caught us off guard. I swallowed a lot of water in the first couple hundred meters and became nauseous so I decided to reset my expectations. I sat up, and breast stroked for a bit until things calmed down. Eventually I hit my stride and was able to swim to shore on my own in 37 mins.

If you weren't a strong swimmer you would have had a hell of a time making the beach.

As others have suggested there really should be several "sighting" boats with orange buoys, as the only one available was pacing the pros.

Otherwise I have to say I really enjoyed this race and would love to do it again.

As for Ross Ehlinger, my thoughts are with his family and certainly his death is devastating to the triathlon community at large.
However, as far as I know the cause of his death has not yet been identified. Certainly a heart attack is a possibility, but this is often the default explanation when someone dies suddenly and unexpectedly.

I found the boat with the big orange ball on the back. It took me almost the entire swim to find it. However, I had to swim away from that boat because it was so far from swim exit. I missed the exit by 100 yards and that boat was probable another 50 yards to my right (toward the bridge, thus further from swim exit).

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [MarkM] [ In reply to ]
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It is not "either-or".

The race director has a responsibility to research swim conditions (esp. in winter) and to educate athletes; AND
Athletes are responsible for knowing exactly what they are getting into - and preparing fully. (Or not signing up.)

As for race director's responsibilities, here are some additional thoughts after reading some of the thoughtful comments in this thread, and talking to more people personally involved in swim monitoring/rescuing/pulling on that day:

1. Not yet mentioned: Expected ebb was a fast 4.1, according to tide table. Experienced swim clubs in San Francisco do NOT schedule Alcatraz crossings with strong ebbs like that - especially in the spring, when ebb can actually turn out much faster than indicated on tide table. The ebb swept more people than usual towards the Golden Gate, and also resulted in a strong eddy offshore, making it hard for swimmers to land. As a result (and also because of the big windchop and cold water), swim rescue staff had to pull 150 swimmers from the water - many just to reposition swimmers to jump back in farther east and make it to land. In a normal year, they pull an average of 50 swimmers.

2. The tide table, as well as average water temps on a given date, is information easily available to a race director well over a year in advance.

3. Having to pull 3x the normal number of swimmers made the swim rescuers (by their own accounts) frantically busy! This could create a difficulty in briskly reaching someone who is truly in medical trouble.

4. I'm fine with being accused of being a wimp here or splitting hairs, but: There is a BIG difference between "52-54" and 51 degrees. Under 55, each degree is noticeable and affects the length of time most of us are able to stay in the water. I swam at Aquatic Park on the day of the Escape, and was able to stay in 15 minutes longer because it had warmed ONE DEGREE from the weeks' prior average of 50. (Early March has 52-54 temps only in an uncommonly warm-water, heavily El Nino year - maybe one out of four years.) Jumping into 51-degree water is a real shock to the system.

5. I'm glad the race directorship sent out so many great videos and emphasized that people must watch them. As many here on ST have pointed out, a responsible athlete furthermore is going to scour the web for former race reports, including reports on swimming conditions, before even signing up for the race. Where the race director could have further assisted athletes here is by CLEARLY STATING THAT WHILE THE ESCAPE USUALLY TAKES PLACE IN SUMMER CONDITIONS, a first-week-in-March race placed this SQUARELY INTO THE CATEGORY OF A WINTER-CONDITIONS RACE. Therefore, scouring past-year (summer) race reports would not adequately capture what to expect. Responsible race director might have offered specifically that...

a. Race temp expected to be mean of ~51 degrees (48-54) based on prior year mean temps.
b. Ebb stronger than usual, 4.1, might mean even more likelihood than usual, of being swept out towards the Golden Gate, and fighting eddies while approaching shore.
c. Big winter swells as well as wind-driven waves are far bigger and more likely than in a summer race.

March was the worst possible month to schedule this race. Even in February, when the water is maybe one degree colder, the spring winds haven't picked up as much. The chop wouldn't have been as bad. At least on an average day.

I stand by my assertion that the race organization made a mistake to schedule this in March. If it is going to go ahead and do that anyway, then burden is on the race organization to explain, before people have registered, that this is not the usual summer Escape but a winter version of the Escape.

- Oleander
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Oleander] [ In reply to ]
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Oleander--

It sounds like you're very knowledgable about the Bay.

I did the race on Sunday and have been wondering since....

The St. Francis Yacht Club looks to be just over 1 mile west of the swim start.
As you've pointed out--and as the race officials pointed out on Sunday--the ebb tide was ~4 km per hour.

If the ebb current was uniform all the way across the shipping channel, you might expect a floating (non-swimming) participant to be carried westward....at about ~4 km per hour. So in something less than 30 minutes the participant would be west of the swim exit, regardless of how much swimming toward shore he/she did. In other words, only the <30-min finishers would have been able to reach shore by the swim exit. And clearly, that wasn't the case. I made it to shore in 35-36 minutes.

Is there just a large variation in the magnitude of the ebb current at different points in the shipping channel?


And another question: do you know anything about variability of temperatures in the portion of the Bay used for the race? Looking online for info, the archived temps are from monitoring stations at some distance from the actual race.

Thanks!

.

.

Larry Creswell
http://www.athletesheart.org, @athletesheart
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [guppie58] [ In reply to ]
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1st Time Alcatraz competitor this year. THE best decision I have ever made as a triathlete was getting in that water the day before, with neoprene cap and no booties. Going in w/no booties helped me determine that there was no way I was doing that swim without them, whatever the cost. I read the same comments as you as it relates to the cap and chin-strap. I tried both w/and w/out the cap on Sat at Aquatics Center. Again - it was a no-brainer. Going with the cap was the way to go. For anyone to come from somewhere not accustomed to those water temps (me from FLA),and not getting in the water the day before the race was just not a wise decision.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [dannytc] [ In reply to ]
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I really think swimming Aquatic Park the day before is essential. I almost wish they could require first time Alcatraz swimmers to at least get in the water.

Like you, I'm from MS and honestly the coldest water I had ever been in prior to Alcatraz was one day when the pool heater broke in the winter and I swam in just a Speedo with the temp around 68. The biggest thing is just to see how the reaction process goes. For me there was a huge initial shock, then a little pain, and then a numbness. However, following those feelings, there was an acclimation that ended with me being completely comfortable in the water. In fact, I spent more time swimming in Aquatic Park on Friday and Saturday because I found I really enjoyed swimming in the frigid waters.

Nothing can prepare you for the shock, but preparation can eliminate the fear of the shock. Knowing that you will get used to the cold at some point is critical.

Also, I wore a cap too, I experienced no "equilibrium" issues.
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