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Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why?
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Look at these two piece of shit lefties.

Unpaid leave huh?

Absolute fucking trash.

BOSTON (CBS) – Two women have been placed on unpaid leave from their jobs after their photo at Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia angered thousands of people on Facebook. — Lindsey Stone was visiting the Tomb of the Unknowns last month on a business trip when she posed for a picture next to a sign that reads “silence and respect.”



In the photo, Stone is pretending to yell and she’s showing her middle finger.



The photo, taken by co-worker Jamie Schuh, (seen at left), went viral and sparked thousands of angry comments.
Some of those comments were posted on the Facebook page of their employer, Living Independently Forever, Inc., (LIFE) a non-profit organization in Hyannis that helps adults with disabilities on Cape Cod. (read more)

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

Last edited by: chainpin: Nov 20, 12 16:44
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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so much for freedom of speech. why was the photographer suspended? was it her that posted it or did she simply take the photo?

who's smarter than you're? i'm!
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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veganerd wrote:
so much for freedom of speech. why was the photographer suspended? was it her that posted it or did she simply take the photo?

What does this have to do with freedom of speech?

She exercised her freedom of speech/expression in the photograph and by posting it to FB.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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How did you decide that they were lefties/moonbats? I don't see anything in that article that would suggest that.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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Where does it say, or why do you assume, they're Lefties? I personally don't know any honest-to-goodness Lefties who'd do anything like that. I do know a few people who would to something impulsively stupid like that, but they're not the sort who pay enough attention to much of anything to have a political affiliation. Somehow, that doesn't come across as a political protest statement as much as it does run-of-the-mill Spring Break-ish faux-rebel stupidity. If anything, I'd venture to guess if you gave them a typical cheat sheet of R vs D campaign sound bites, they'd more likely side w/ the ignorant Righties on a majority of issues (not those chicks necessarily, as the dumbasses I know who I could see doing that after a few beers are all dudes).
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
How did you decide that they were lefties/moonbats? I don't see anything in that article that would suggest that.

You guys don't know much about the world of non profits do you.

Either way, these two are idiots, period.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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>You guys don't know much about the world of non profits do you.

GPS Crossroads is a non-profit. And the Cato Institute.

Or is it just bad that this non-profit seeks to help people with disabilities live independently? Only moonbats would do that?

>Either way, these two are idiots, period.

This is true.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
How did you decide that they were lefties/moonbats? I don't see anything in that article that would suggest that.

I would say he was playing the odds. If you had to classify someone who is an employee at a non profit organization, is upset in some form or fashion at the idea of war, soldiers, defense, or something relating to the sacred ground she was mocking, you put your money on Leftie......

either way she's a moron.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Al5] [ In reply to ]
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I would say he was playing the odds. If you had to classify someone who is an employee at a non profit organization, is upset in some form or fashion at the idea of war, soldiers, defense, or something relating to the sacred ground she was mocking, you put your money on Leftie......

everyone knows how leftie those mormons are. with their general dislike of war. now that you made me think of it...damn anyone who gets upset in some fashion at the idea of war.


if you dont like slaughtering people or dropping atomic bombs then you are obviously a moonbat!

who's smarter than you're? i'm!
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
>You guys don't know much about the world of non profits do you.

GPS Crossroads is a non-profit. And the Cato Institute.

Or is it just bad that this non-profit seeks to help people with disabilities live independently? Only moonbats would do that?

>Either way, these two are idiots, period.

This is true.


Cape Cod
Massachusetts
Non Profit
Anti-Military

If you pressed me, I would say that there is an 85% chance these two are Obama moonbats.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

Last edited by: chainpin: Nov 20, 12 17:25
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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Moobat? Is that some kind of cow bat hybrid made by scientists in a lab? Presumably the same lab that made Christine O'Donnell's mice with human brains.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [link5485] [ In reply to ]
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link5485 wrote:
Moobat? Is that some kind of cow bat hybrid made by scientists in a lab? Presumably the same lab that made Christine O'Donnell's mice with human brains.

I love post like yours.

The best definition of a moonbat I ever heard is the following:

"They wear winter coats in the summer."

A few folks on here will get that most will not.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Al5] [ In reply to ]
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Similar to the father in the linked article, I imagine that idiot was reacting to the sign and not the Tomb of the Unknowns. My guess is she's too stupid to even know the significance of the Tomb and unlikely to have put much thought into being angry about war, soldiers, or defense.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Al5] [ In reply to ]
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Isolationist sentiments exist all over tge spectrum.

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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone else not care or see this as a big deal? IMO, people are wound up way too tight and go looking for reasons to be outraged.

Of course it is in poor taste. But disrespectful? Meh. She tried to be funny in front of the sign. If you are reading more into that then....well, you are reading more into it.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Trispoke] [ In reply to ]
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Trispoke wrote:
Anyone else not care or see this as a big deal? IMO, people are wound up way too tight and go looking for reasons to be outraged.

Of course it is in poor taste. But disrespectful? Meh. She tried to be funny in front of the sign. If you are reading more into that then....well, you are reading more into it.

True, but perhaps it is a lesson to other moonbats to keep their bullshit to themselves in this day of social media.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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veganerd wrote:
so much for freedom of speech. why was the photographer suspended? was it her that posted it or did she simply take the photo?

Freedom of speech only applies to government actors. I see nothing that indicates they were arrested, so, what is your beef?

Their employer has the right to terminate them for their conduct. They were on a business trip, on company time, and they did something that made the employer look bad. They have every right to fire these two and I hope they do so.

You have the right to act like an ass. Your employer has the right to fire you for it.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Trispoke] [ In reply to ]
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Trispoke wrote:
Anyone else not care or see this as a big deal? IMO, people are wound up way too tight and go looking for reasons to be outraged.

Of course it is in poor taste. But disrespectful? Meh. She tried to be funny in front of the sign. If you are reading more into that then....well, you are reading more into it.

Why am I not surprised that you would have no issue with this? Two things are painfully obvious: (1) you have never served and (2) you have no clue what selfless service means.

Thank God there are enough men and women who don't think like you to protect your right to think like you.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
veganerd wrote:
so much for freedom of speech. why was the photographer suspended? was it her that posted it or did she simply take the photo?


Freedom of speech only applies to government actors. I see nothing that indicates they were arrested, so, what is your beef?

Their employer has the right to terminate them for their conduct. They were on a business trip, on company time, and they did something that made the employer look bad. They have every right to fire these two and I hope they do so.

You have the right to act like an ass. Your employer has the right to fire you for it.

i guess my real qustion was about the photographer. ive taken many photos of things i dont agree with or like and have published them or posted them online. i would be pretty pissed off if i got punished for it. also, like others have said, i dont think they were saying or doing anything intentionally disrespectful to the military, just being goofy about the sign.

who's smarter than you're? i'm!
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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veganerd wrote:
JSA wrote:
veganerd wrote:
so much for freedom of speech. why was the photographer suspended? was it her that posted it or did she simply take the photo?


Freedom of speech only applies to government actors. I see nothing that indicates they were arrested, so, what is your beef?

Their employer has the right to terminate them for their conduct. They were on a business trip, on company time, and they did something that made the employer look bad. They have every right to fire these two and I hope they do so.

You have the right to act like an ass. Your employer has the right to fire you for it.


i guess my real qustion was about the photographer. ive taken many photos of things i dont agree with or like and have published them or posted them online. i would be pretty pissed off if i got punished for it. also, like others have said, i dont think they were saying or doing anything intentionally disrespectful to the military, just being goofy about the sign.

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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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veganerd wrote:
JSA wrote:
veganerd wrote:
so much for freedom of speech. why was the photographer suspended? was it her that posted it or did she simply take the photo?


Freedom of speech only applies to government actors. I see nothing that indicates they were arrested, so, what is your beef?

Their employer has the right to terminate them for their conduct. They were on a business trip, on company time, and they did something that made the employer look bad. They have every right to fire these two and I hope they do so.

You have the right to act like an ass. Your employer has the right to fire you for it.


i guess my real qustion was about the photographer. ive taken many photos of things i dont agree with or like and have published them or posted them online. i would be pretty pissed off if i got punished for it. also, like others have said, i dont think they were saying or doing anything intentionally disrespectful to the military, just being goofy about the sign.

The photographer took the picture and was a party to posting it (according to the story). She was an active participant in the series of events that got their asses in trouble. She was doing this on work time. She was not doing it for anything other than her own amusement. She was not hired to take the picture or requested to do so. She was a willing participant. So, she has to take the heat as well.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
The photographer took the picture and was a party to posting it (according to the story). She was an active participant in the series of events that got their asses in trouble. She was doing this on work time. She was not doing it for anything other than her own amusement. She was not hired to take the picture or requested to do so. She was a willing participant. So, she has to take the heat as well.

alright (i didnt read the story) but i still dont think they were trying to be offensive, just goofy about the sign. if that sign were in the bathroom of the library im sure they would have taken the same photo.

who's smarter than you're? i'm!
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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veganerd wrote:
JSA wrote:
veganerd wrote:
so much for freedom of speech. why was the photographer suspended? was it her that posted it or did she simply take the photo?


Freedom of speech only applies to government actors. I see nothing that indicates they were arrested, so, what is your beef?

Their employer has the right to terminate them for their conduct. They were on a business trip, on company time, and they did something that made the employer look bad. They have every right to fire these two and I hope they do so.

You have the right to act like an ass. Your employer has the right to fire you for it.


i guess my real qustion was about the photographer. ive taken many photos of things i dont agree with or like and have published them or posted them online. i would be pretty pissed off if i got punished for it. also, like others have said, i dont think they were saying or doing anything intentionally disrespectful to the military, just being goofy about the sign.

The thing I find odd about this story is that you have to go way out of your way to go to Arlington Cementary, and then you have to wait in lines to ride buses to a couple different points in the cementary including the Tomb of the Unknowns. And these 2 were not captive like kids in a school tour. So who does all of that and then thinks Hey lets make a disrespectful picture. Most people who visit are very subdued, perhaps thinking of people they know who who died in service. Its hard to imagine someone making such a joke like picture at such a place.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [patf] [ In reply to ]
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The thing I find odd about this story is that you have to go way out of your way to go to Arlington Cementary, and then you have to wait in lines to ride buses to a couple different points in the cementary including the Tomb of the Unknowns.

I am going to respond only to correct the impression that it is hard to get to Arlington Cemetary or the Tomb of the Unknown. It's actually very easy if you are willing/able to walk 15 minutes from the Metro station. You don't have to take a bus. It's an uphill walk once you are in the cemetary but it's not bad. I don't want someone to miss out on a visit because they think it's an effort to get there.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [too.tall] [ In reply to ]
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too.tall wrote:
The thing I find odd about this story is that you have to go way out of your way to go to Arlington Cementary, and then you have to wait in lines to ride buses to a couple different points in the cementary including the Tomb of the Unknowns.

I am going to respond only to correct the impression that it is hard to get to Arlington Cemetary or the Tomb of the Unknown. It's actually very easy if you are willing/able to walk 15 minutes from the Metro station. You don't have to take a bus. It's an uphill walk once you are in the cemetary but it's not bad. I don't want someone to miss out on a visit because they think it's an effort to get there.

I think you're right that we took the metro. But we did wait for the tours. Do they encourage people to walk around? I thought I recall them saying they provided guides for people who wanted to visit a loved one and perhaps you can't just walk anywhere? So it might not be hard to get to, but you do have to want to take a metro trip there, etc. It's not like you just walk in off the mall on a whim.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [patf] [ In reply to ]
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The last time I was there was pre 9/11 and I remember being able to walk around, but ive always been an ask forgiveness vs permission kind of guy ;-)

who's smarter than you're? i'm!
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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veganerd wrote:
Quote:

The photographer took the picture and was a party to posting it (according to the story). She was an active participant in the series of events that got their asses in trouble. She was doing this on work time. She was not doing it for anything other than her own amusement. She was not hired to take the picture or requested to do so. She was a willing participant. So, she has to take the heat as well.


alright (i didnt read the story) but i still dont think they were trying to be offensive, just goofy about the sign. if that sign were in the bathroom of the library im sure they would have taken the same photo.

I think this falls into the fallacy of mood affiliation. You love and trust moonbats -- of course they weren't trying to be offensive. This just in: middle fingers are our most offensive gesture. I hope that someday these girls regret their actions and not just the consequences.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
Trispoke wrote:
Anyone else not care or see this as a big deal? IMO, people are wound up way too tight and go looking for reasons to be outraged.

Of course it is in poor taste. But disrespectful? Meh. She tried to be funny in front of the sign. If you are reading more into that then....well, you are reading more into it.


Why am I not surprised that you would have no issue with this? Two things are painfully obvious: (1) you have never served and (2) you have no clue what selfless service means.

Thank God there are enough men and women who don't think like you to protect your right to think like you.


Maybe if you didn't have a stick shoved so far up your ass, you wouldn't let things like this bother you. But that's par for the course coming from you.

But your right....it has everything to do with whether I served or not (rolls eyes). Thank God only those who serve can only be outraged by this.

Keep living in your fantasy world. It's really telling when your position is more extreme than CP's. Your position as LR kook is almost complete.
Last edited by: Trispoke: Nov 21, 12 3:06
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Trispoke] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe he, like others, are sick of the left defending the actions of their own no matter how trivial, and no matter how serious.

It could be an offensive picture like above, or it could the rape of a girl (Roman Polanski) it does not matter, the left always gives their own a pass, ALWAYS.

You guys are truly fucking insane, hard wired like useful idiots, defending every action with one fucking lame ass excuse after excuse.

And finally if you have ever been to Arlington Cemetery you know that it IS NOT the type of place one fucks around in.

I took hundreds of photos when I was there, including this one:



"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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You are like the boy who called wolf. You get so outraged over everything that it has no meaning any more.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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chainpin wrote:
Maybe he, like others, are sick of the left defending the actions of their own no matter how trivial, and no matter how serious.

It could be an offensive picture like above, or it could the rape of a girl (Roman Polanski) it does not matter, the left always gives their own a pass, ALWAYS.

The fuck? Not only did you find some picture of someone being a disrespectful dumbass, you then assumed they were liberal, assumed that all liberals think the same, then brought up a guy who raped a 13 year old to show it happens all the time? Grow the fuck up, idiot.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Quel] [ In reply to ]
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Quel wrote:

The fuck? Not only did you find some picture of someone being a disrespectful dumbass, you then assumed they were liberal, assumed that all liberals think the same, then brought up a guy who raped a 13 year old to show it happens all the time? Grow the fuck up, idiot.

x2

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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Quel] [ In reply to ]
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Quel wrote:
You are like the boy who called wolf. You get so outraged over everything that it has no meaning any more.

x1000

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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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iron_mike wrote:
Quel wrote:
You are like the boy who called wolf. You get so outraged over everything that it has no meaning any more.


x1000

Agreed.

CP--Do you realize that YOU posted the picture and YOU started a thread. If it is so disrespectful than why are YOU continuing to post it and have it talked about? Maybe it's just me, but if I was outraged/offended by a photo, I would never put it up on facebook, slowtwitch or any forum. I would want it to go away so that it doesn't anger me or anyone else. And if I did, it would be to have a constructive conversation about it. Not point fingers or place blame.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Trispoke] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Maybe if you didn't have a stick shoved so far up your ass, you wouldn't let things like this bother you.

Yeah right, and when anyone says, "Retard, Faggot, N*&%$*&, Gay, Squaw", etc, the left just brushes it aside.

.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Trispoke] [ In reply to ]
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Trispoke wrote:
JSA wrote:
Trispoke wrote:
Anyone else not care or see this as a big deal? IMO, people are wound up way too tight and go looking for reasons to be outraged.

Of course it is in poor taste. But disrespectful? Meh. She tried to be funny in front of the sign. If you are reading more into that then....well, you are reading more into it.


Why am I not surprised that you would have no issue with this? Two things are painfully obvious: (1) you have never served and (2) you have no clue what selfless service means.

Thank God there are enough men and women who don't think like you to protect your right to think like you.


Maybe if you didn't have a stick shoved so far up your ass, you wouldn't let things like this bother you. But that's par for the course coming from you.

But your right....it has everything to do with whether I served or not (rolls eyes). Thank God only those who serve can only be outraged by this.

Keep living in your fantasy world. It's really telling when your position is more extreme than CP's. Your position as LR kook is almost complete.

You do not have to serve to have respect for those who have -- or even more so, for those who made the ultimate sacrifice. But, you have no respect. None. You are a little twit who takes what he has for granted w/o any consideration for who/what protects those rights.

Who said outrage? Go back and read my post and show me where I show any amount of outrage. I may have a stick up my ass, but, you have your head placed firmed up yours. It is simply incredible.

You are quickly surpassing YaHey as the LR Village Idiot. Congratulation. Well played, sir. Well played.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [efernand] [ In reply to ]
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efernand wrote:
Quote:
Maybe if you didn't have a stick shoved so far up your ass, you wouldn't let things like this bother you.


Yeah right, and when anyone says, "Retard, Faggot, N*&%$*&, Gay, Squaw", etc, the left just brushes it aside.

.

Well, according to Trispoke, if that person is just trying to be funny, then it is no big deal. If anyone reads more into it, well, that is their problem. What an asshat.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Trispoke] [ In reply to ]
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Trispoke wrote:
Anyone else not care or see this as a big deal? IMO, people are wound up way too tight and go looking for reasons to be outraged.

Of course it is in poor taste. But disrespectful? Meh. She tried to be funny in front of the sign. If you are reading more into that then....well, you are reading more into it.


Let's say you are at the funeral of a loved one, and somebody decides that this is a good time to make jokes or be funny. Would you find that disrespectful?

Spot

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Last edited by: spot: Nov 21, 12 6:39
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [spot] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Let's say you are at the funeral of a loved one, and somebody decides that this is a good time to make jokes or be funny. Would you find that disrespectful?

if people dont treat my funeral like a party and tell jokes then they are in fact being disrespectful. ;)

who's smarter than you're? i'm!
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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This Thanksgiving I am most thankful that none of you will be there.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Trispoke] [ In reply to ]
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Trispoke wrote:
Anyone else not care or see this as a big deal? IMO, people are wound up way too tight and go looking for reasons to be outraged.

Of course it is in poor taste. But disrespectful? Meh. She tried to be funny in front of the sign. If you are reading more into that then....well, you are reading more into it.

If you have visited the Tomb of the Unknown, you'd probably see this as a 'bigger deal'. You do have to hike up a hill for a reasonable distance past thousands of headstones. There is absolutely no doubt, as you make the trip, that you are going to a special part of the cemetery. When you get there, there is a guard pacing back and forth in front of the Tomb and you look out over the thousands of graves you just walked past. People don't talk, except in very low tones. Most just sit on the steps letting it all sink in. Many weep.

I escorted a group of over 200 fifth grade kids there two years ago and I was worried about their ability to respect the place and the symbolism. Not the slightest problem. Even they got it, including the ADD kid I was chaperoning. Now, I have never served, but both of my parents did. However, I couldn't stop some tears from falling when Taps was played at the changing of the guard. If you have just the slightest appreciation for loss of life, this place will make you feel it.

This isn't a place for liberals or conservatives to express personal agendas or opinions. It is a place that is intended to remind us of the sacrifices that have been made by all sorts of people in order for us to enjoy the rights that we have. The graves there contain liberals and conservatives.

I find it almost impossible to comprehend that people would hike all of the way up to the Tomb without a reason. 99.9% of the visitors want to pay their respects. It is clear that these two women went up there with the intention of disrespecting the place and they hiked all of the way up there to do it. Seems bizarre. You would have to be a pretty self centered and cold hearted person to pose for pictures like those after you got there. If I was their employer, I would give them a chance to explain their motives, but I doubt there is any way they could explain away the pics. I'd almost surely fire both of them whether I was a liberal or conservative.

FWIW,
Greg

If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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chainpin wrote:
Cape Cod
Massachusetts
Non Profit
Anti-Military

If you pressed me, I would say that there is an 85% chance these two are Obama moonbats.

White, female, and under 30, moves the chances closer to 95%.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Trispoke] [ In reply to ]
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Trispoke wrote:
iron_mike wrote:
Quel wrote:
You are like the boy who called wolf. You get so outraged over everything that it has no meaning any more.


x1000


Agreed.

CP--Do you realize that YOU posted the picture and YOU started a thread. If it is so disrespectful than why are YOU continuing to post it and have it talked about? Maybe it's just me, but if I was outraged/offended by a photo, I would never put it up on facebook, slowtwitch or any forum. I would want it to go away so that it doesn't anger me or anyone else. And if I did, it would be to have a constructive conversation about it. Not point fingers or place blame.

And you could have clicked on this thread then closed it never uttering a word., but here you are.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
Trispoke wrote:
JSA wrote:
Trispoke wrote:
Anyone else not care or see this as a big deal? IMO, people are wound up way too tight and go looking for reasons to be outraged.

Of course it is in poor taste. But disrespectful? Meh. She tried to be funny in front of the sign. If you are reading more into that then....well, you are reading more into it.


Why am I not surprised that you would have no issue with this? Two things are painfully obvious: (1) you have never served and (2) you have no clue what selfless service means.

Thank God there are enough men and women who don't think like you to protect your right to think like you.


Maybe if you didn't have a stick shoved so far up your ass, you wouldn't let things like this bother you. But that's par for the course coming from you.

But your right....it has everything to do with whether I served or not (rolls eyes). Thank God only those who serve can only be outraged by this.

Keep living in your fantasy world. It's really telling when your position is more extreme than CP's. Your position as LR kook is almost complete.


You do not have to serve to have respect for those who have -- or even more so, for those who made the ultimate sacrifice. But, you have no respect. None. You are a little twit who takes what he has for granted w/o any consideration for who/what protects those rights.

Who said outrage? Go back and read my post and show me where I show any amount of outrage. I may have a stick up my ass, but, you have your head placed firmed up yours. It is simply incredible.

You are quickly surpassing YaHey as the LR Village Idiot. Congratulation. Well played, sir. Well played.

you are so full of shit that it's funny. Yep, I have no respect. That's me...how in the world did the all-knowing JSA figure that out? I forgot that we are supposed to bow down to you and your infinite wisdom. You aren't worth wasting any energy on. I am done with you.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [spot] [ In reply to ]
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spot wrote:
Trispoke wrote:
Anyone else not care or see this as a big deal? IMO, people are wound up way too tight and go looking for reasons to be outraged.

Of course it is in poor taste. But disrespectful? Meh. She tried to be funny in front of the sign. If you are reading more into that then....well, you are reading more into it.


Let's say you are at the funeral of a loved one, and somebody decides that this is a good time to make jokes or be funny. Would you find that disrespectful?

Spot

Totally depends. You have never cracked a joke at a funeral? I have been to plenty of funerals where the crowd was rolling with laughter. I have an uncle that is always trying to get someone to pull his finger...funerals, weddings, etc. I don't see it as disrespectful. Sometimes it is ill timed.

In some instances, the joke could be in poor taste (as I believe the picture is). The point here is that, IMO, some people are reading way too much into it. I (you know, my personal beliefs....which according to some, I should thank others for being able to even have) believe 100% that she was trying to be funny in regards to the language on the sign. Had the sign been in a bathroom, church, side of the road, it would have gotten the same response out of her. But people are upset about WHERE it occurred. I get it. Not the place to do that (note, I never defended her). But to extrapolate it to mean that she has no respect for armed services, etc....is reading too much into it. She was trying to be funny....it failed big time. And now she is suffering the consequences, which I don't really have an issue with.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Trispoke] [ In reply to ]
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Well, admitting you are an ass-hat is half way towards recovery. Perhaps there is hope for you yet. But, I won't hold my breath ...

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Trispoke] [ In reply to ]
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"But to extrapolate it to mean that she has no respect for armed services, etc....is reading too much into it."

My guess is that the women didn't bother to put enough thought into what they were doing to make a conscious decision about respect or disrespect. To act so thoughtlessly is disrespectful in itself, especially given their location. It's not like they didn't know they were in a place where they ought to pay more attention to their actions.

I'm sure that if you had asked them they day before the shot was taken, they would say they had great respect for the armed services. However, respect is demonstrated through actions, not just words.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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True, but perhaps it is a lesson to other moonbats to keep their bullshit to themselves in this day of social media.[/quote]
Maybe you out to change the word moonbat to your name and take your own advice.

**********************
Harry: "I expected the Rocky Mountains to be a little rockier than this."
Loyd: "I was thinking the same thing. That John Denver's full of shit, man."
Quote Reply
Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Trispoke] [ In reply to ]
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"But to extrapolate it to mean that she has no respect for armed services, etc....is reading too much into it."

Well, she took the trouble to get herself to the most famous MILITARY graveyard in the world and then hiked about 3/4 to a mile up a hill to a specially designated area where the Tomb of the Unknown SOLDIER is located that is guarded 24/7/365 by a living SOLDIER in full dress UNIFORM with a rifle. It sure looks like she had a very clear agenda to me and it sure looks like it was very closely associated with expressing her feelings toward the armed services. I don't see how anyone could view this in any other way. Can I suggest you take a moment to read my earlier post about this?

If, as you said, she could have found "Quiet Please" signs in all sorts of other places, then why didn't she take this ridiculous picture at one of those places? Would have been a whole lot easier than the trouble of going to Arlington. I understand your giving her the benefit of doubt, but there just isn't much to doubt here.

Greg

If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [gregtryin] [ In reply to ]
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my narrative is they walked around and just got stupidly spunky at the top
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [gregtryin] [ In reply to ]
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gregtryin wrote:
I understand your giving her the benefit of doubt, but there just isn't much to doubt here.


The benefit of doubt I'm giving her is that she is just an idiot, not a military hating anti-American moonbat who would probably stab the old guard and defecate on the tomb if given the chance. That's all:). I don't think it's really letting her off easy, it's just not making her the anti christ.
Last edited by: Quel: Nov 21, 12 11:01
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Quel] [ In reply to ]
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Not actually replying to the last poster... just used to hit "reply' in general...

You guys rage much?????


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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [RockyMtnChic] [ In reply to ]
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RockyMtnChic wrote:

True, but perhaps it is a lesson to other moonbats to keep their bullshit to themselves in this day of social media.


Maybe you out to change the word moonbat to your name and take your own advice.[/quote]
Shouldn't you be busy getting your work at home porn business off the ground?

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Quel] [ In reply to ]
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Quel wrote:
gregtryin wrote:
I understand your giving her the benefit of doubt, but there just isn't much to doubt here.


The benefit of doubt I'm giving her is that she is just an idiot, not a military hating anti-American moonbat who would probably stab the old guard and defecate on the tomb if given the chance. That's all:). I don't think it's really letting her off easy, it's just not making her the anti christ.

x2. What they did was disrespectful. Labeling it as "..Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier" is a huge over reach.

Giggling and telling jokes in church is disrespectful, shitting on the altar is desecration.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/...on/english/desecrate

Definition of desecrate
verb [with object]
  • [/url]
    treat (a sacred place or thing) with violent disrespect: more than 300 graves were desecrated
  • [/url]
    spoil (something which is valued or respected): many lanes are desecrated with yellow lines


Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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Lefties? How about "White People Desecrate Tomb of the Unknown Soldier?"
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Giggling and telling jokes in church is disrespectful, shitting on the altar is defecation.

fify

who's smarter than you're? i'm!
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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This idiot absolutely desecrated this Tomb.

to violate the sanctity of : profane <desecrate a shrine>. 2. : to treat disrespectfully, irreverently, ...

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Freedom of speech only applies to government actors. I see nothing that indicates they were arrested, so, what is your beef?

I might have a beef with that.

You're saying that employers have a right to fire employees for exercising their freedom of speech?

Their employer has the right to terminate them for their conduct. They were on a business trip, on company time, and they did something that made the employer look bad.

It isn't clear to me from the story that they were on company time. They were in DC on a business trip. That doesn't mean their visit to the Tomb occurred on company time.










"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:

Freedom of speech only applies to government actors. I see nothing that indicates they were arrested, so, what is your beef?

I might have a beef with that.

You're saying that employers have a right to fire employees for exercising their freedom of speech?

Their employer has the right to terminate them for their conduct. They were on a business trip, on company time, and they did something that made the employer look bad.

It isn't clear to me from the story that they were on company time. They were in DC on a business trip. That doesn't mean their visit to the Tomb occurred on company time.


They were on a company trip and this chick was asked by many people repeatedly for over a month to take this photo off her facebook page.

She really sorry now though, and ashamed, since it went viral...loser.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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She really sorry now though, and ashamed, since it went viral...loser.

As she should be.

That doesn't address whether or not she was on company time, and it doesn't mean she should be fired for it.









"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Quote Reply
Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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chainpin wrote:
This idiot absolutely desecrated this Tomb.

to violate the sanctity of : profane <desecrate a shrine>. 2. : to treat disrespectfully, irreverently, ...

Well if you're going to use that definition you've been desecrating the Lavender Room for quite some time...

Though personally, I would just call it disrespectful.

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
Quote Reply
Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
True, but perhaps it is a lesson to other moonbats to keep their bullshit to themselves in this day of social media.

I disagree. This is one of the many valuable services instant access to social media provides; it tears down part of the barrier we've erected between stupidity and pain. Facebook and twitter are exceptionally good at letting people know, in real time, who and what you really are.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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nslckevin wrote:
chainpin wrote:
This idiot absolutely desecrated this Tomb.

to violate the sanctity of : profane <desecrate a shrine>. 2. : to treat disrespectfully, irreverently, ...


Well if you're going to use that definition you've been desecrating the Lavender Room for quite some time...

Though personally, I would just call it disrespectful.

Well, I guess you could call this place a tomb, as there are surely quite a few dead bodies buried here.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Freedom of speech only applies to government actors. I see nothing that indicates they were arrested, so, what is your beef?

I might have a beef with that.

You're saying that employers have a right to fire employees for exercising their freedom of speech?


That is exactly what I am saying and, yes, with very, very few exceptions, it is perfectly legal for them to do so. Employers do so all the time.



Quote:
Their employer has the right to terminate them for their conduct. They were on a business trip, on company time, and they did something that made the employer look bad.

It isn't clear to me from the story that they were on company time. They were in DC on a business trip. That doesn't mean their visit to the Tomb occurred on company time.


Yes, it does. When you are on a business trip, paid for by your employer, you employer has the right to discipline you for inappropriate conduct during that trip, even if it occurs outside of normal work hours.

This is what I do for a living and deal with cases like this frequently. I have handled a number of cases where employees were fired for drunken behavior (for example) while away for a business conference that occurred outside of normal work hours.


EDIT TO ADD: (Not directed specifically to you) It amazes me how many people think an employer must have "cause" or "just cause" to terminate an employee. This mentality is the reason why so many incompetent employees remain employed while their supervisors sit with their thumbs up their asses bitching about them. Most employees, in most states, are "at-will." At-will employees can be fired for any reason or no reason at all, so long as it is not an illegal reason. So, if you do something stupid and make an ass of yourself, your employer absolutely has the right to fire you (with exceedingly small exceptions).



If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
Last edited by: JSA: Nov 21, 12 15:21
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
Trispoke wrote:
JSA wrote:
Trispoke wrote:
Anyone else not care or see this as a big deal? IMO, people are wound up way too tight and go looking for reasons to be outraged.

Of course it is in poor taste. But disrespectful? Meh. She tried to be funny in front of the sign. If you are reading more into that then....well, you are reading more into it.


Why am I not surprised that you would have no issue with this? Two things are painfully obvious: (1) you have never served and (2) you have no clue what selfless service means.

Thank God there are enough men and women who don't think like you to protect your right to think like you.


Maybe if you didn't have a stick shoved so far up your ass, you wouldn't let things like this bother you. But that's par for the course coming from you.

But your right....it has everything to do with whether I served or not (rolls eyes). Thank God only those who serve can only be outraged by this.

Keep living in your fantasy world. It's really telling when your position is more extreme than CP's. Your position as LR kook is almost complete.


You do not have to serve to have respect for those who have -- or even more so, for those who made the ultimate sacrifice. But, you have no respect. None. You are a little twit who takes what he has for granted w/o any consideration for who/what protects those rights.

Who said outrage? Go back and read my post and show me where I show any amount of outrage. I may have a stick up my ass, but, you have your head placed firmed up yours. It is simply incredible.

You are quickly surpassing YaHey as the LR Village Idiot. Congratulation. Well played, sir. Well played.

Pssst.... I don't know Trispoke at all, but I actually did serve in the military (USN), as did my dad (USA), a brother (USA), 2 sisters-in-law (both USA, one still active), and a brother-in-law (USMC)... just so ignorant cunts like those pictured are free to make stupid disrespectful gestures which don't in fact actually injure anyone. So you're gonna tell me what now about guarding people's rights?

I've seen/heard nothing to change my original impression they simply thought they were performing a clever faux-rebel prank, not really so much different from thousands of drunken frat boys in poor taste every Spring Break; they're quite obviously not thoughtful enough to be doing it as a political protest. Sure, I'd be annoyed if I saw them doing it, but move on already. It's far more annoying to listen to the righties here constantly bag on the Govt for infringing on individual liberties in one post, and then actually believe their own BS when they try to act like the Respect Cop by telling someone else who didn't serve that he should essentially STFU because somehow he didn't 'earn' the right. Well, if Trispoke didn't serve, I earned it for him. So get over yourself, jackass.

How about the time I was in Italy at the Leaning Tower park and got to witness a group of jarheads from my troop transport step over the walkway railing and mug for the camera by doing a human pyramid on the grounds right next to a "Please Keep Off The Grass" sign? Is that more or less disrespectful being that we were guests in another country? Funny I noticed the sign was only in English despite it being an obvious tourist area with other signs and restaurant menus in all sorts of other languages, so I guess it must not have been the first time. But hey, they obviously served 'selflessly' as you like to say, so that must be cool.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
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So, you say this:


OneGoodLeg wrote:
Pssst.... I don't know Trispoke at all, but I actually did serve in the military (USN), as did my dad (USA), a brother (USA), 2 sisters-in-law (both USA, one still active), and a brother-in-law (USMC)... just so ignorant cunts like those pictured are free to make stupid disrespectful gestures which don't in fact actually injure anyone. So you're gonna tell me what now about guarding people's rights?
Which is harsher than anything I have said on this thread (which I did not start by the way). You actually used what is the most offense word you could possibly use regarding a woman. Obviously, their actions struck a cord with you (or, you hate women, but, I will give you the benefit of the doubt).

Then you say this:


OneGoodLeg wrote:
try to act like the Respect Cop by telling someone else who didn't serve that he should essentially STFU because somehow he didn't 'earn' the right. Well, if Trispoke didn't serve, I earned it for him. So get over yourself, jackass.
Interesting. Go back and read my posts and show me where I told him he should STFU b/c he did not "earn the right." What I chastised him for was saying that this was no big deal. Obviously, based on the first quote I pulled from your response, you do not feel the same way as our little buddy, Trispoke. Yet you tell me to "get over yourself, jackass." Good stuff!

You also took the time to quote my post, which is as follows:


JSA wrote:
You do not have to serve to have respect for those who have -- or even more so, for those who made the ultimate sacrifice. But, you have no respect. None. You are a little twit who takes what he has for granted w/o any consideration for who/what protects those rights.
(Emphasis added). Yet you want to berate me for allegedly claiming that those who did not serve need to STFU. Really?




If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:

She really sorry now though, and ashamed, since it went viral...loser.

As she should be.

That doesn't address whether or not she was on company time, and it doesn't mean she should be fired for it.

From reports I have heard here she was on company time.

People get fired for all kinds of lesser shit everyday, so I don't see why she shouldn't get the axe, if it was my company I would fire her.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Pssst.... I don't know Trispoke at all, but I actually did serve in the military (USN), as did my dad (USA), a brother (USA), 2 sisters-in-law (both USA, one still active), and a brother-in-law (USMC)... just so ignorant cunts like those pictured are free to make stupid disrespectful gestures which don't in fact actually injure anyone. So you're gonna tell me what now about guarding people's rights?


first off, what a jack ass thing to say.

second, you served in the military. awesome. seriously, thats good. but dont kid yourself into thinking that you were protecting her freedom of speech. you werent. there has not been any outside threat to our personal freedoms within most of our lifetimes. the only serious threats to our rights would come from our own politicians. what you were doing was protecting her and the rest of us from physical harm. which is obviously admiribal, but you didnt do anything to protect her right to take that photo unless you were supporting specific legislation to do so. but thats something any citizen can do, no military service required.

who's smarter than you're? i'm!
Last edited by: veganerd: Nov 21, 12 17:51
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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That is exactly what I am saying and, yes, with very, very few exceptions, it is perfectly legal for them to do so. Employers do so all the time.


It might very well be legal in most states. I don't believe it's right anywhere, and I find the idea of employers firing employees for exercising their right to speech (or any other right, for that matter) much more disturbing than a couple of morons flipping the bird at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

It amazes me how many people think an employer must have "cause" or "just cause" to terminate an employee. This mentality is the reason why so many incompetent employees remain employed while their supervisors sit with their thumbs up their asses bitching about them. Most employees, in most states, are "at-will." At-will employees can be fired for any reason or no reason at all, so long as it is not an illegal reason.


If employers are keeping incompetent employees on the payroll, I guess I can only say that the employer is just as incompetent- surely incompetence at one's job represents just cause to fire someone. As far as the legality of firing employees for behavior outside of work, I generally think laws and policies that allow it are bullshit, and corrosive to American ideals of freedom. It's not really any of my employers business what I do on my own time. (And yes, I think that ought to include time outside of working hours even if I'm on a business trip.)









"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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My expectations for this thread have been met and exceeded, well done LR sheep, well done.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Post deleted by spot [ In reply to ]
Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
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OneGoodLeg wrote:
JSA wrote:
Trispoke wrote:
JSA wrote:
Trispoke wrote:
Anyone else not care or see this as a big deal? IMO, people are wound up way too tight and go looking for reasons to be outraged.

Of course it is in poor taste. But disrespectful? Meh. She tried to be funny in front of the sign. If you are reading more into that then....well, you are reading more into it.


Why am I not surprised that you would have no issue with this? Two things are painfully obvious: (1) you have never served and (2) you have no clue what selfless service means.

Thank God there are enough men and women who don't think like you to protect your right to think like you.


Maybe if you didn't have a stick shoved so far up your ass, you wouldn't let things like this bother you. But that's par for the course coming from you.

But your right....it has everything to do with whether I served or not (rolls eyes). Thank God only those who serve can only be outraged by this.

Keep living in your fantasy world. It's really telling when your position is more extreme than CP's. Your position as LR kook is almost complete.


You do not have to serve to have respect for those who have -- or even more so, for those who made the ultimate sacrifice. But, you have no respect. None. You are a little twit who takes what he has for granted w/o any consideration for who/what protects those rights.

Who said outrage? Go back and read my post and show me where I show any amount of outrage. I may have a stick up my ass, but, you have your head placed firmed up yours. It is simply incredible.

You are quickly surpassing YaHey as the LR Village Idiot. Congratulation. Well played, sir. Well played.


Pssst.... I don't know Trispoke at all, but I actually did serve in the military (USN), as did my dad (USA), a brother (USA), 2 sisters-in-law (both USA, one still active), and a brother-in-law (USMC)... just so ignorant cunts like those pictured are free to make stupid disrespectful gestures which don't in fact actually injure anyone. So you're gonna tell me what now about guarding people's rights?

I've seen/heard nothing to change my original impression they simply thought they were performing a clever faux-rebel prank, not really so much different from thousands of drunken frat boys in poor taste every Spring Break; they're quite obviously not thoughtful enough to be doing it as a political protest. Sure, I'd be annoyed if I saw them doing it, but move on already. It's far more annoying to listen to the righties here constantly bag on the Govt for infringing on individual liberties in one post, and then actually believe their own BS when they try to act like the Respect Cop by telling someone else who didn't serve that he should essentially STFU because somehow he didn't 'earn' the right. Well, if Trispoke didn't serve, I earned it for him. So get over yourself, jackass.

How about the time I was in Italy at the Leaning Tower park and got to witness a group of jarheads from my troop transport step over the walkway railing and mug for the camera by doing a human pyramid on the grounds right next to a "Please Keep Off The Grass" sign? Is that more or less disrespectful being that we were guests in another country? Funny I noticed the sign was only in English despite it being an obvious tourist area with other signs and restaurant menus in all sorts of other languages, so I guess it must not have been the first time. But hey, they obviously served 'selflessly' as you like to say, so that must be cool.

From MSNBC:

"The Old Guard, the U.S. Army Infantry regiment that is charged with guarding the Tomb of the Unknowns and is famous for weathering literal storms, seems prepared to weather a social media storm as well. They told Gonzalez that Stone is entitled to her freedom of speech.
And as for Stone's photo, the Old Guard said, it deserves no futher comment."

Spot

___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [spot] [ In reply to ]
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Once again, the Old Guard has done our nation proud.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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That is exactly what I am saying and, yes, with very, very few exceptions, it is perfectly legal for them to do so. Employers do so all the time.

It might very well be legal in most states. I don't believe it's right anywhere, and I find the idea of employers firing employees for exercising their right to speech (or any other right, for that matter) much more disturbing than a couple of morons flipping the bird at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
It is legal in every state. Why is it an issue for you? Let's take another example. Employee is wearing a Company t-shirt during a KKK rally. Is hooting and hollering in front on a burning cross. Video makes it on Youtube and goes viral. Suddenly, Company is being boycotted. In your world, it would be wrong for Company to fire the employee?



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It amazes me how many people think an employer must have "cause" or "just cause" to terminate an employee. This mentality is the reason why so many incompetent employees remain employed while their supervisors sit with their thumbs up their asses bitching about them. Most employees, in most states, are "at-will." At-will employees can be fired for any reason or no reason at all, so long as it is not an illegal reason.

If employers are keeping incompetent employees on the payroll, I guess I can only say that the employer is just as incompetent- surely incompetence at one's job represents just cause to fire someone. As far as the legality of firing employees for behavior outside of work, I generally think laws and policies that allow it are bullshit, and corrosive to American ideals of freedom. It's not really any of my employers business what I do on my own time. (And yes, I think that ought to include time outside of working hours even if I'm on a business trip.)
Couple points here. First, incompetent employees are kept b/c companies does not know the law or are afraid to follow it. It is the reason why guys like me continue to be gainfully employed. Second, see my example above. In your world, the Company has no recourse? Really? Third, regarding the business trip -- the employer is paying for that trip. So, in your world, the employer has no control over anything that happens outside of working hours? Ok, let's take another example. Employee goes on business trip to win new customer for Company. Company pays for the travel, hotel, food, etc. The business meeting goes well and it looks like employee is going to land a major customer for Company. Employee goes out for drinks that night and runs into the Customer. Employee is drunk off his ass and makes a fool of himself. Next day, new customer drops the account. In your world, the Company has no recourse for that conduct?

BTW, I am not making up any of these examples.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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It is legal in every state. Why is it an issue for you?

You're a lawyer, and I'm not, and you specialize in this area of the law, while I certainly don't. But I'm not sure that the legality of firing an employee for something like this is as unquestionable as you've suggested. A very quick internet check ( I know. I know, OK?) says this:


Despite this relativity, most states agree that the following reasons for termination would violate public policy and would therefore be illegal:
  • terminating an employee for refusing to commit an illegal act (such as refusing to falsify insurance claims or lie to government auditors)
  • terminating an employee for complaining about an employer's illegal conduct (such as the employer's failure to pay minimum wage), and
  • terminating an employee for exercising a legal right (such as voting or taking family leave).



Regardless, I'm not arguing with you over the law. You might be perfectly correct about that, and if these two idiots get fired over their idiotic photo, they might very well lose the lawsuit they will almost certainly initiate. I don't know.

But I don't know why you think that if an activity- in this case, firing someone for exercising their right to speech- is legal, I should have no problem with it. There are lots of reprehensible activities that are nevertheless legal. In some such cases, I think the law should be changed. In other cases, I think the reprehensible behavior should remain legal- but the behavior is still reprehensible.

Employee is wearing a Company t-shirt during a KKK rally. Is hooting and hollering in front on a burning cross. Video makes it on Youtube and goes viral. Suddenly, Company is being boycotted. In your world, it would be wrong for Company to fire the employee?


I would say that it depends. Is it a t-shirt that anyone might wear, owned by the employee? Or is it part of an official uniform that employee wears at work? If the latter, I think the employer has legitimate cause to fire the employee, for the simple reason that by wearing the company uniform, the employee has effectively presented himself as a representative of the company. If the former, not so much.

In your world, the Company has no recourse? Really?


Yeah, very likely the company should have no recourse. Really. Why should it? Let's say the employee at the KKK rally is not wearing a uniform shirt, but just a plain old t-shirt with his employer's logo on it, like any other Joe Schmo might wear. Or let's say he isn't wearing a company shirt, or if he is, you can't see it under his Klan sheet. The company should be able to fire him for his personal beliefs, expressed in accordance with his Constitutional guarantee to be able to do so, outside of work?

regarding the business trip -- the employer is paying for that trip. So, in your world, the employer has no control over anything that happens outside of working hours?


Not really, no. The employer isn't paying to control anything outside of working hours, so I don't really see why an employee should hand over control of his free time for nothing- let alone give up the exercise of his American freedoms.

I'm an hourly employee. Occasionally my company sends me out of town, maybe for training, maybe to lend a hand in another market. They pay for the trip- the plane ticket, the hotel, and so on, because they need me to be there for some reason. They pay me my hourly rate while I'm in training to acquire the skills necessary to perform my job, or while I'm actually working. They don't continue to pay me while I'm out of town, away from my home and family, after the work day is done. That means I'm off the clock. I'm a private citizen. The company isn't paying me to be a company representative 24/7.

People are hired to do a job. They are paid to do that job. That is, they receive a paycheck in exchange for their labor. They don't sell themselves into indentured servitude, they are not generally hired to be spokesmen for their company every minute of their lives, they aren't paid to suspend their Constitutional rights. We are talking about persons and citizens who have jobs, not mindless labor units that function as company automatons for the duration of their employment.

What if my employer fires me because I oppose same sex marriage, and have contributed money to lobby against it? You're OK with that? What if my employer fires me because he discovers I legally own firearms? You're OK with that? What if my employer fires me because someone tells him I drink on the weekends, and my employer is a teetotaler. You're OK with that?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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It is legal in every state. Why is it an issue for you?

You're a lawyer, and I'm not, and you specialize in this area of the law, while I certainly don't. But I'm not sure that the legality of firing an employee for something like this is as unquestionable as you've suggested. A very quick internet check ( I know. I know, OK?) says this:


Despite this relativity, most states agree that the following reasons for termination would violate public policy and would therefore be illegal:
  • terminating an employee for refusing to commit an illegal act (such as refusing to falsify insurance claims or lie to government auditors)
  • terminating an employee for complaining about an employer's illegal conduct (such as the employer's failure to pay minimum wage), and
  • terminating an employee for exercising a legal right (such as voting or taking family leave).
Note what they are saying there. It is, in many cases, illegal to terminate an employee for exercising a legal right. That is not the same as exercising freedom of speech. Remember, freedom of speech ONLY applies to government actors. Period. There is no "freedom of speech" applicable to private actors (like private employers). So, we are talking about apples and oranges.



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Regardless, I'm not arguing with you over the law. You might be perfectly correct about that, and if these two idiots get fired over their idiotic photo, they might very well lose the lawsuit they will almost certainly initiate. I don't know.
They have zero -- and I mean ZERO -- chance of winning such a lawsuit.

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But I don't know why you think that if an activity- in this case, firing someone for exercising their right to speech- is legal, I should have no problem with it. There are lots of reprehensible activities that are nevertheless legal. In some such cases, I think the law should be changed. In other cases, I think the reprehensible behavior should remain legal- but the behavior is still reprehensible.
Why? They made their employer look bad. Why would termination be "reprehensible?"


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Employee is wearing a Company t-shirt during a KKK rally. Is hooting and hollering in front on a burning cross. Video makes it on Youtube and goes viral. Suddenly, Company is being boycotted. In your world, it would be wrong for Company to fire the employee?


I would say that it depends. Is it a t-shirt that anyone might wear, owned by the employee? Or is it part of an official uniform that employee wears at work? If the latter, I think the employer has legitimate cause to fire the employee, for the simple reason that by wearing the company uniform, the employee has effectively presented himself as a representative of the company. If the former, not so much.

Why? Why does it matter where he/she got the shirt? If it says COMPANY and they work for COMPANY, why does it matter where they got the shirt?



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In your world, the Company has no recourse? Really?

Yeah, very likely the company should have no recourse. Really. Why should it? Let's say the employee at the KKK rally is not wearing a uniform shirt, but just a plain old t-shirt with his employer's logo on it, like any other Joe Schmo might wear. Or let's say he isn't wearing a company shirt, or if he is, you can't see it under his Klan sheet. The company should be able to fire him for his personal beliefs, expressed in accordance with his Constitutional guarantee to be able to do so, outside of work?
Why? B/c you have NO RIGHT to your job. NONE. This is what kills me! A job is not a right, it is a privilege. You have zero right to employment. None. So, if you do something to make your employer look back, you damn well should lose the privilege to work for that employer. Amazing to me how many people think employment is a right.



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regarding the business trip -- the employer is paying for that trip. So, in your world, the employer has no control over anything that happens outside of working hours?

Not really, no. The employer isn't paying to control anything outside of working hours, so I don't really see why an employee should hand over control of his free time for nothing- let alone give up the exercise of his American freedoms.
Yeah, they really are. You are only on that trip b/c (a) you work for Employer and (b) employer is paying for you to be there.

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I'm an hourly employee. Occasionally my company sends me out of town, maybe for training, maybe to lend a hand in another market. They pay for the trip- the plane ticket, the hotel, and so on, because they need me to be there for some reason. They pay me my hourly rate while I'm in training to acquire the skills necessary to perform my job, or while I'm actually working. They don't continue to pay me while I'm out of town, away from my home and family, after the work day is done. That means I'm off the clock. I'm a private citizen. The company isn't paying me to be a company representative 24/7.
So what? Do you have an employment contract? What are the terms? If not, you have absolutely, positively, zero right or entitlement to that job.

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People are hired to do a job. They are paid to do that job. That is, they receive a paycheck in exchange for their labor. They don't sell themselves into indentured servitude, they are not generally hired to be spokesmen for their company every minute of their lives, they aren't paid to suspend their Constitutional rights. We are talking about persons and citizens who have jobs, not mindless labor units that function as company automatons for the duration of their employment.
I agree. But, if your off-duty misconduct brings disrepute to your employer, legally, the employer can fire you for it. Everyone on this webite, everyone with a twitter account, everyone with an on-line presence, better understand this. This is a new era. This is a new area of the law. Those of us in this practice area will "make" law. I have already done so in a couple different jurisdictions. If an employee does not think his/her off-duty misconduct can impact his/her job, then he/she better get up to date on this area of the law or be in for a nasty surprise.

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What if my employer fires me because I oppose same sex marriage, and have contributed money to lobby against it? You're OK with that? What if my employer fires me because he discovers I legally own firearms? You're OK with that? What if my employer fires me because someone tells him I drink on the weekends, and my employer is a teetotaler. You're OK with that?
The law (in most states) specifically prohibits discrimination on the basis of lawful use of a lawful product. So, one could not be fired for owning firearms, drinking, smoking, etc. But, if you work for a Catholic organization then, yes, you could be fired for supporting same sex marriage. The law requires that your off-duty conduct somehow relates to your job (usually, there are exceptions). So, your "slippery slope" has already been addressed by the court -- I promise you. I have handled, literally, dozens of these cases. It is pretty easy to tell when conduct (vs. misconduct) is in play.




If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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The law (in most states) specifically prohibits discrimination on the basis of lawful use of a lawful product. So, one could not be fired for owning firearms, drinking, smoking, etc.

Do you think that should be the case? Because you've been pretty clear in arguing that nobody has any right to their job. Why should the law make an exception to that principle in the case the use of a lawful product?


if you work for a Catholic organization then, yes, you could be fired for supporting same sex marriage.


What if I'm a waiter? (My hypothetical restaurant is non-sectarian.) I've donated money to lobby against same sex marriage in California. Gay rights activists have my name and $50 donation on a list, and picket the restaurant I work at. Can I be fired? I'm a little confused, because you seem to have said that I can't be fired in this situation- my off duty behavior doesn't relate to my job, right? And yet, it seems to have brought "disrepute" to my employer in the same way as the two idiots at the Tomb did.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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The law (in most states) specifically prohibits discrimination on the basis of lawful use of a lawful product. So, one could not be fired for owning firearms, drinking, smoking, etc.

Do you think that should be the case? Because you've been pretty clear in arguing that nobody has any right to their job. Why should the law make an exception to that principle in the case the use of a lawful product?

Yes, I do. My point is, and has been, that an "at-will" employee can be fired for any reason or no reason at all, as long as it is not an illegal reason. Well (in many/most states, but not all) it is illegal to fire someone for lawful use of a lawful product. You have a right to vote. You have a right to own firearms. You don't have a "right" to free speech without consequence. Your "right" is that government cannot stifle your free speech.

You cannot fire someone b/c of their religion, their race, their ethnicity, their gender. In many states, you cannot fire someone b/c of their sexual orientation, their marital status, their military status, or their lawful use of a lawful product. IMO, that's the way it should be.

You do not have a "right" to your job. But, that does not mean an employer can fire you for an illegal reason.


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if you work for a Catholic organization then, yes, you could be fired for supporting same sex marriage.

What if I'm a waiter? (My hypothetical restaurant is non-sectarian.) I've donated money to lobby against same sex marriage in California. Gay rights activists have my name and $50 donation on a list, and picket the restaurant I work at. Can I be fired? I'm a little confused, because you seem to have said that I can't be fired in this situation- my off duty behavior doesn't relate to my job, right? And yet, it seems to have brought "disrepute" to my employer in the same way as the two idiots at the Tomb did.
Possibly, but, likely not. Your hypo is not the same as that of the two idiots at the Tomb. Those two were on a business trip paid for by the employer. Had these two been on a personal trip, wholly unrelated to their job, the situation would be different. Had they identified themselves as employees of Company, even if on a personal trip, they could be in the same boat.

What makes this situation "easy" for me is the fact that they were on a business trip paid for by their employer. That makes it a no-brainer. Also (and I may have this wrong) but, their web post somehow identified then as part of this organization. Again, that makes it different.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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You are telling me what the law is, and again, I'm not really disputing your expertise in that area.

What I'm saying is that the law that allows a person to be fired in this type of situation is wrong, and an employer that actually does fire a person in this situation is wrong, and the reasoning behind the law as you've presented it erodes our rights.

What makes this situation "easy" for me is the fact that they were on a business trip paid for by their employer. That makes it a no-brainer.


It's a legal technicality that has no substantive impact on anything in the real world. Was the trip to the Tomb undertaken during working hours? Were the two idiots visiting the Tomb in some official company capacity? Not as far as we're aware. The fact that they were in DC on a business trips is meaningless. (Except as that all-important legal technicality. I get that.)

In other words, there is no real difference between the situation these two put themselves in and that my anti-same sex marriage waiter found himself in. You've pointed out that nobody is "entitled" to their job, and can legally be fired for any reason (except those that are illegal, of course.) Except it seems that the waiter IS entitled to his job, at least for the time being, and cannot be fired for lobbying against same sex marriage. These two idiots are similarly not "entitled" to their jobs, but they CAN be fired for their activity, even though it's equally unrelated to their job, simply because they undertook it during a business trip. The difference is mere geography.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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"The company should be able to fire him for his personal beliefs, expressed in accordance with his Constitutional guarantee to be able to do so, outside of work? "

The Constitution doesn't guarantee you the right to express your beliefs. It guarantees you the right to not have govt make a law abridging your ability to free speech. The Constitutionally guaranteed rights are not framed in absolute terms. They are framed in terms of what the govt can or can not do. Private citizens are not necessarily bound by the same restrictions. For instance, it is not illegal for you to punish your kids for use of foul language or for acting in a disrespectful manner to their parents, even though that is certainly an expression of their feelings and beliefs.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [Quel] [ In reply to ]
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"The fuck? Not only did you find some picture of someone being a disrespectful dumbass, you then assumed they were liberal, assumed that all liberals think the same, then brought up a guy who raped a 13 year old to show it happens all the time? Grow the fuck up, idiot."

THANK YOU!


customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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Looks like they are no longer employed

http://news.msn.com/...ng-photo-on-facebook
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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You are telling me what the law is, and again, I'm not really disputing your expertise in that area.

What I'm saying is that the law that allows a person to be fired in this type of situation is wrong, and an employer that actually does fire a person in this situation is wrong, and the reasoning behind the law as you've presented it erodes our rights.
Why is it wrong? You have no right to your job. Being employed is a privilege, not a right. To continue to enjoy that privilege, you must adhere to certain terms. One of those terms is that if you make the employer look bad, you lose the privilege. Why is that wrong? Go back to my KKK rally example where the employee is wearing COMPANY shirt and is on a video that goes viral. This results in boycotts against COMPANY. Why should COMPANY not be allowed to do anything to the employee who caused this in the first place.



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What makes this situation "easy" for me is the fact that they were on a business trip paid for by their employer. That makes it a no-brainer.

It's a legal technicality that has no substantive impact on anything in the real world. Was the trip to the Tomb undertaken during working hours? Were the two idiots visiting the Tomb in some official company capacity? Not as far as we're aware. The fact that they were in DC on a business trips is meaningless. (Except as that all-important legal technicality. I get that.)
According to a couple reports I have read, Lindsey Stone posted the picture on her FaceBook page, along with other pictures showing her business trip to D.C. She identified her employer and the fact that she was on a business trip. By her own actions, she brought her employer into the controversy. She caused the employer to have to take action. So, this is a no-brainer. You make the company look bad, you don't get to work for the company.


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In other words, there is no real difference between the situation these two put themselves in and that my anti-same sex marriage waiter found himself in. You've pointed out that nobody is "entitled" to their job, and can legally be fired for any reason (except those that are illegal, of course.) Except it seems that the waiter IS entitled to his job, at least for the time being, and cannot be fired for lobbying against same sex marriage. These two idiots are similarly not "entitled" to their jobs, but they CAN be fired for their activity, even though it's equally unrelated to their job, simply because they undertook it during a business trip. The difference is mere geography.
No, there are more distinctions. As I indicated above, these two chose to post the picture on a public forum and chose to identify the reason for their trip to D.C. So, they chose to bring the employer into a controversy. That is not the same as your example.








If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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The Constitution doesn't guarantee you the right to express your beliefs. It guarantees you the right to not have govt make a law abridging your ability to free speech.

I understand that, honest. That's why I didn't say these two idiots have had their First Amendment rights violated. I said that I don't think they should be fired for exercising their freedom of speech outside of work, on their own time, in a setting in which they acted as private citizens, not employees.

Freedom is pretty empty if people can't exercise without fear of losing their livelihoods. I think we really ought to examine the degree of control over our outside lives that we're willing to surrender to our employers, who, after all, only pay us to do a job. We might be protected from a totalitarian government, but that doesn't mean much if we're unprotected from a totalitarian employer.













"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:

The Constitution doesn't guarantee you the right to express your beliefs. It guarantees you the right to not have govt make a law abridging your ability to free speech.

I understand that, honest. That's why I didn't say these two idiots have had their First Amendment rights violated. I said that I don't think they should be fired for exercising their freedom of speech outside of work, on their own time, in a setting in which they acted as private citizens, not employees.

Freedom is pretty empty if people can't exercise without fear of losing their livelihoods. I think we really ought to examine the degree of control over our outside lives that we're willing to surrender to our employers, who, after all, only pay us to do a job. We might be protected from a totalitarian government, but that doesn't mean much if we're unprotected from a totalitarian employer.



Ok, so, let's take this example. EMPLOYEE works for COMPANY. During off-duty time, on EMPLOYEE's personal FaceBook page, EMPLOYEE makes racial comments, saying he "hates blacks" (but uses the n word). Employee then goes on to say COMPANY hates "n's" as well, which is why he loves working for COMPANY.

COMPANY has no right to fire EMPLOYEE?

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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"We might be protected from a totalitarian government, but that doesn't mean much if we're unprotected from a totalitarian employer. "


Totalitarian implies that the entity in question has total control. Am employer doesn't fit the bill, in this country. Employees can quit if they don't like the way the employer treats them. Employers likewise can fire employees if they act against the interest of that employer. That's not totalitarianism. That's just good business. In this case, if the women had taken the photo, and kept it to themselves, and somehow the employer found out, I doubt they'd have been fired. But since they posted it to a very public social media service, and included the name of their employers and that they were on a business trip, they crossed out of private personal speech and into speech that could harm their employers. They did so thoughtlessly, and without regard to the impact it could have.


Nobody is taking away these women's right to free speech. They have not "surrendered" that right to their employer. But they don't have a right to work for that employer. And the employer is under no obligation to employ them. These women retain their right to free speech, and the employer retains the right to employ people they choose.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Why is it wrong? You have no right to your job. Being employed is a privilege, not a right. To continue to enjoy that privilege, you must adhere to certain terms.

See, this seems to be the crux of our disagreement. I think that if one is hired to do a job, one has a right to expect to keep that job absent some job-related cause, or some economic reason. I don't think it's right to maintain that continuing to earn a living in a position that you're performing in is simply a privilege that can be revoked on a whim. (Which is somewhat of a legal fiction, anyway. We aren't talking about employees who were fired randomly, without cause, just because the employer can fire them. We are talking about people who were fired for a specific cause, and I don't think that cause has anything to do with their job, and I maintain that it's therefore none of the employer's business.)


One of those terms is that if you make the employer look bad, you lose the privilege.


Except that doesn't really seem to be the case. If so, I don't understand why my anti-same sex marriage waiter can't be fired. Isn't his job a privilege that can be revoked by his employer at any time, an entitlement to which he has no right? Further, hasn't his contribution to lobby for traditional marriage made his employer look bad? Tell me again why he can't be fired?

I understood your previous post on this to mean that he can't be fired because his cash contribution was not work related. And if so, I agree with that reasoning. His activity has nothing to do with his employer, and is none of his employer's business. I don't think the waiter should be fired because his expressed opinion is unpopular with some people, when that opinion has no connection to his job.

Likewise the two idiots at the Tomb, and likewise your KKK member, as long as he wasn't wearing a shirt that actually identifies him as an employer of his company during the rally. You've been tossing around a lot of justifications about how people can be fired for almost any reason or for no reason, but you seem to be hanging your case for justly firing these people on the grounds that their behavior actually was work related. And I reject that argument- the relation between their activity and their jobs is trivial, and no more significant than that of the waiter's.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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I think you are overly cavalier about the significance of a person's livelihood.

It is easy to say that the employee can just go get another job if he doesn't like his employer restricting his off the clock speech. But that's increasingly not the case, as more and more employers adopt this kind of mindset and seek to regulate the behavior of their employees while not at work.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Why is it wrong? You have no right to your job. Being employed is a privilege, not a right. To continue to enjoy that privilege, you must adhere to certain terms.

See, this seems to be the crux of our disagreement. I think that if one is hired to do a job, one has a right to expect to keep that job absent some job-related cause, or some economic reason. I don't think it's right to maintain that continuing to earn a living in a position that you're performing in is simply a privilege that can be revoked on a whim. (Which is somewhat of a legal fiction, anyway. We aren't talking about employees who were fired randomly, without cause, just because the employer can fire them. We are talking about people who were fired for a specific cause, and I don't think that cause has anything to do with their job, and I maintain that it's therefore none of the employer's business.)

Yes, this is the crux of our disagreement. You see a job as an entitlement. Legally, it is not. It is a privilege. From a practical standpoint, it is a privilege. Your employer owes you nothing more than payment for the actual work already performed.




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One of those terms is that if you make the employer look bad, you lose the privilege.

Except that doesn't really seem to be the case. If so, I don't understand why my anti-same sex marriage waiter can't be fired. Isn't his job a privilege that can be revoked by his employer at any time, an entitlement to which he has no right? Further, hasn't his contribution to lobby for traditional marriage made his employer look bad? Tell me again why he can't be fired?
In the case of these two women, they brought in the employer with the Facebook post. That is why the employer was bombarded by complaints.

Regarding the waiter - I never said he could not be fired. In theory, he could be fired for this. However, unless he did something to overtly draw negative attention to his employer, he likely would not be fired for such conduct. You seem to think there is some slippery slope here. However, in the real world, it doesn't happen that way.

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I understood your previous post on this to mean that he can't be fired because his cash contribution was not work related. And if so, I agree with that reasoning. His activity has nothing to do with his employer, and is none of his employer's business. I don't think the waiter should be fired because his expressed opinion is unpopular with some people, when that opinion has no connection to his job.
Not exactly. It isn't that he "couldn't" be fired b/c it was not work related. Rather, it is that he "wouldn't" be fired for doing so. In theory, he could be fired for any reason or no reason at all, so long as it was not an illegal reason. It is highly unlikely that a court would see the case contribution as "protected activity," so, he could be fired. However, in the real world, it doesn't work that way. Remember, employers do not want negative attention. Firing someone for something like your example would draw negative attention. So, they don't do it.

Just to clarify -- if you are a public employee, in general, you can only be fired if your off-duty misconduct is somehow connected to your on duty position. In the private sector, in general, there is no such requirement. Understand that some states have state laws that alter these general principles.

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Likewise the two idiots at the Tomb, and likewise your KKK member, as long as he wasn't wearing a shirt that actually identifies him as an employer of his company during the rally. You've been tossing around a lot of justifications about how people can be fired for almost any reason or for no reason, but you seem to be hanging your case for justly firing these people on the grounds that their behavior actually was work related. And I reject that argument- the relation between their activity and their jobs is trivial, and no more significant than that of the waiter's.
Nope. Again, like I said, it isn't that they "couldn't" be fired, it is that they "wouldn't" be fired if there was no connection. What I said in this particular case is that, under these facts, it is a complete no-brainer for me b/c they were on a work trip.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Not being cavalier, just putting it into perspective against a totalitarian regime in which a persons only choice is to try to take his family and flee to another country, usually under threat of violence or death. Being expected to not make your company look bad on Facebook kind of pales in comparison.

Like it or not, the proliferation of widespread social media, and the inclination of people to put everything in their lives on those media sites means that stuff you used to be able to do and no one would notice, now becomes a national (or international) story overnight. 20 years ago, these women might have done the same thing, and they would have had the picture in a scrapbook somewhere. Now it's attached to their online profile, along with their place of employment, and the information that they were on a work trip. People have to be smarter. More and more employers are seeking to regulate the speech of their employees because that speech is having wider and wider impact on businesses through online postings.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Regarding the waiter - I never said he could not be fired. In theory, he could be fired for this. However, unless he did something to overtly draw negative attention to his employer, he likely would not be fired for such conduct.

It wasn't entirely hypothetical. Several such cases did occur in the wake of California's Prop 8 campaign. (I don't know if anyone was technically fired. Several people were pressured to "resign.")

Your employer owes you nothing more than payment for the actual work already performed.


Again, this is nothing more than a semantic ruse to justify employers regulating the off-duty behavior of their employees. In the real world, nobody is fired for no reason. The question should not be "do you have a right to this job, or any job?" but rather "does your boss have the right to tell you what you can or cannot do while you're not at work?"



It isn't that he "couldn't" be fired b/c it was not work related. Rather, it is that he "wouldn't" be fired for doing so.

I appreciate the clarification. As noted above, though, it isn't the case that he "wouldn't" be fired for doing so.










"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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just putting it into perspective against a totalitarian regime in which a persons only choice is to try to take his family and flee to another country, usually under threat of violence or death. Being expected to not make your company look bad on Facebook kind of pales in comparison.

I grant that one is more dramatic than the other, but the end results are not entirely dissimilar. "Totalitarian" refers to the amount of control exercises over someone's life- it need not be enforced by outright violence. If virtually all of a person's behavior can be regulated by threatening his ability to earn a living, put a roof over his head, and feed his family, I'd say that person is living under at least a near totalitarian regime. The fact that it isn't run by the government at gunpoint might make it seem warmer and fuzzier, but he certainly is not free in any meaningful sense.

More and more employers are seeking to regulate the speech of their employees because that speech is having wider and wider impact on businesses through online postings.


I wonder, at that, how much of an impact this actually had on the idiots' employer. It got the employer some attention, but has its ability to conduct business actually been impacted?

What if their employer had simply issued a statement similar to that issued by the Old Guard? Seems pretty simple to me.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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The question should not be "do you have a right to this job, or any job?" but rather "does your boss have the right to tell you what you can or cannot do while you're not at work?"

When I began working for the county way back when (South Carolina, a Right To Work state), I was required to sign an agreement that included, among several items, clauses that obligated me to seek approval from our director before taking other jobs, be they full or part time, and to avoid engaging in behavior in my free time that would--I forget the specific language--reflect poorly on the county. I asked what type of activity this entailed, and was given the standard reply: working in a strip joint, public drunkenness, and such. The primary function of the secondary employment clause was to prevent scheduling conflicts, but the prohibition on working in a strip club clearly crossed over into exerting control over what we did off duty, regardless of legality and how it would or would not impact our ability to do our jobs effectively. They simply did not want patients identifying their healthcare provider as the girl from the champagne room, and understandably so. We were aware of these restrictions (among many others) and how our free time was not truly ours, or free, but it was what we agreed to as a trade-off for the benefits of the position. Social media was just reaching ubiquitous status at the time of my departure, but I've heard this policy has reached to social media as well, for the reasons slowguy articulated; there is no separating the personal from the professional in that forum--at least, there's no guarantee that people will, or even can, and so employers are paying close attention and drafting policy to account for it.

I think it's entirely reasonable that agencies, be they public or private, control their brand in this fashion. My only stipulation is that it be made known at the start of employment, so that people don't have disciplinary action taken without forewarning.


The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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I think it's entirely reasonable that agencies, be they public or private, control their brand in this fashion.

And the massive degree of control that this gives employers over employees lives does not concern you? You don't think that our current law, as explained by JSA, has already eroded our freedoms as citizens, and will continue to do so?

People (not you, but lots of people) get all hyped up over the most trivial issues of political correctness. Someone says "happy holidays" instead of "merry Christmas," and there's outrage all over. Which is ridiculous.

When the choice, though, is to stifle your freedoms or lose your job, political correctness has become truly dangerous.









"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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I'm certainly not unconcerned with it, but I think it's inevitable. No one is forcing people to use social media, or to post who they work for, or with, or photos of their coworkers, or every detail of their daily activity, in a way that is accessible to everyone on the planet, now and in perpetuity. Agencies are facing new threats from social media activity that did not exist previously, and I think a proportional response is reasonable--again, provided expectations are made clear in advance.

I disagree that this constitutes stifling one's freedoms. Freedoms have always been tied to consequence of action, and I don't see this much differently.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, freedom has always been tied consequence, but there is a difference between a proportional, appropriate consequence, and a punitive action taken by an actor who really has no business in the equation. One should not have to choose between supporting oneself and expressing one's opinion as a private citizen in a free society. That's no kind of freedom at all.

You're wrong to think that this is merely a result of someone's voluntary activity on social media, too. I don't believe any of the Prop 8 supporters who were targeted were identified by their activity on social media.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Regarding the waiter - I never said he could not be fired. In theory, he could be fired for this. However, unless he did something to overtly draw negative attention to his employer, he likely would not be fired for such conduct.

It wasn't entirely hypothetical. Several such cases did occur in the wake of California's Prop 8 campaign. (I don't know if anyone was technically fired. Several people were pressured to "resign.")
That could be, but, I bet those who were pressured to do so were quite vocal and there was some connection with their employer.


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Your employer owes you nothing more than payment for the actual work already performed.

Again, this is nothing more than a semantic ruse to justify employers regulating the off-duty behavior of their employees. In the real world, nobody is fired for no reason. The question should not be "do you have a right to this job, or any job?" but rather "does your boss have the right to tell you what you can or cannot do while you're not at work?"

Your employer does not have the right to tell you what to do (or not do) during your off duty hours. But, if that conduct becomes public and is an issue for the employer, the employer has the right to terminate the employee.



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It isn't that he "couldn't" be fired b/c it was not work related. Rather, it is that he "wouldn't" be fired for doing so.

I appreciate the clarification. As noted above, though, it isn't the case that he "wouldn't" be fired for doing so.
Perhaps, but, given that you do not have a right to the job, there really isn't an issue.




If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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I bet those who were pressured to do so were quite vocal and there was some connection with their employer.

No. Their contributions were public record. Same sex marriage proponents got a list of those who contributed to Prop 8, and targeted them.

Besides which, I say it doesn't matter. People have a right to be vocal about their political beliefs, whatever they are, on their own time. They should not face the prospect of losing their jobs for doing so, if we are going to continue to tell ourselves that we're a free society, composed of free people.


Your employer does not have the right to tell you what to do (or not do) during your off duty hours. But, if that conduct becomes public and is an issue for the employer, the employer has the right to terminate the employee.

Distinction without a difference. One might just as well say that your employer does not have the right to tell you what to do or not do
during your work hours, but if you don't do what your employer wants, you can be fired. Which is just as technically true, and just as meaningless.











"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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I bet those who were pressured to do so were quite vocal and there was some connection with their employer.

No. Their contributions were public record. Same sex marriage proponents got a list of those who contributed to Prop 8, and targeted them.

Besides which, I say it doesn't matter. People have a right to be vocal about their political beliefs, whatever they are, on their own time. They should not face the prospect of losing their jobs for doing so, if we are going to continue to tell ourselves that we're a free society, composed of free people.

You are going to have to provide a citation because I do not believe it.


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Your employer does not have the right to tell you what to do (or not do) during your off duty hours. But, if that conduct becomes public and is an issue for the employer, the employer has the right to terminate the employee.

Distinction without a difference. One might just as well say that your employer does not have the right to tell you what to do or not do
during your work hours, but if you don't do what your employer wants, you can be fired. Which is just as technically true, and just as meaningless.

It isn't the same at all either in theory or, more importantly, in practice.





If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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You're wrong to think that this is merely a result of someone's voluntary activity on social media, too. I don't believe any of the Prop 8 supporters who were targeted were identified by their activity on social media.


I was only focusing on social media as an example because of this case, and my personal experience with policy changes governing employees behavior on their own time. I understand that it reaches beyond this as well, but I also realize this isn't a new phenomenon; people have historically suffered consequences, both socially and economically, for their decisions to publicly engage in behavior that the Constitution protects. It's not always *right* that they do, but that doesn't make our society any less free. I'd say it makes our society less tolerant, and perhaps less ideal than if such actions never occurred, but I wouldn't call it less free, and, in fact, I'd say that to restrict the employers' ability to hire and fire at will would be to make our society less free.

The question is both practical and philosophical, and the answer depends on one's perspective. Did the Civil Rights Act, as it applies to private industry, make our society more free, or did it make it less free but more consistent with our values?

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One should not have to choose between supporting oneself and expressing one's opinion as a private citizen in a free society. That's no kind of freedom at all.


Apply the same reasoning to your voluntary association with the Church (I can hear your eyes rolling in your skull from here, but bear with me): to rephrase your earlier question, why should you have to choose between your Constitutionally protected right to fornicate and blaspheme, and your access to eternal salvation? The answer is, because that's the way it works. You can choose to associate with your Church/employer, and reap those benefits you desire, or you can terminate your association and find another Church/employer that suits your needs or desires more broadly. You are entirely free to do this, but of course you choose as you do, on the criteria of your preference, and you willingly accept the conditions it imposes on your life. You were highly critical of Sister Social Justice on a Bus, because she essentially wanted to bend Catholicism to her view of how things *should* be, rather than promote and live by the teachings of the Church. I think your criticism is justified and correct, by the way, and for the reasons, among others, I just described. If you don't like the conditions of your associations, you can either work internally to change them, or you can find alternative accommodations. Sister Social Justice (whatever her name is) needs to leave the Church and join a group that sees things her way--Unitarian Universalism would suit her worldview and ambitions very well, I suspect. Similarly, if you don't like working for a corporation that places severe restrictions on aspects of your public behavior, either work internally to change it, or find alternative accommodations.

This applies in all associations, universally--marriage, parenthood, civic group participation, etc. They all require that you modify your behavior in ways that limit your ability to do as you please so long as it's not in violation of law. You can complain that in a free society you should be free to associate with whichever women you choose, and to stay at the bar 'till 2 am every night, and that demands placed on you to meet their expectations are an infringement of freedom or liberty, but I don't think you'll garner much sympathy for your plight when those voluntary associations fall to ruin. I think the sticking point here is that you don't view employment in the same light--a voluntary, contractual association that benefits both parties. I'm hard pressed to see it any other way, ultimately (although I've said before and maintain today that the balance of power ultimately tilts toward the employer, although LIbertarians strenuously disagree with that assessment), and I think the vast majority of employers allow employees a wide berth and do not place onerous restrictions on their free time. Those that do are not likely to keep good employees for very long, so it's largely a self-limiting problem.

Mrs sphere is contractually prohibited from any and all public acts of political campaigning, in every imaginable iteration. Doing so can, and almost certainly would, result in termination. This is not an infringement on her freedom, because it serves to protect her employer from charges of political bias (and in her position this is vitally important), and because we moved halfway across the eastern seaboard, voluntarily leaving her former place of employment, for the benefits it would provide for our family. We were not coerced to do so in any sense of the word, and she is free to leave after she's met her contractual obligations, to work wherever and for whomever she chooses. I don't for a second consider us any less free because of her restrictions, and in reality, those benefits allowed us to support our family while I completed my medical training (an outcome that was not possible before this opportunity presented), which is allowing us to move to a better financial footing, and thus affording us greater ability to exercise our freedoms.

I'm not arguing that it wouldn't be better if we did retain total freedom without consequence in our down time, provided we don't run afoul of the law in ways that directly harm our employers, I'm just arguing that these voluntary associations and the conditions they require don't make us less free as a society in any meaningful sense.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Nov 23, 12 6:21
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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"Mrs sphere is contractually prohibited from any and all public acts of political campaigning, in every imaginable iteration. Doing so can, and almost certainly would, result in termination. This is not an infringement on her freedom..."

Of course it's an infringement on her freedom. The point is not that these types of rules don't limit freedom in some ways, but that this limitation is either reasonable or consensual. Your wife's freedom to engage in political campaigning is indeed limited. However, she agreed to that limitation. Similarly, there are limitations I have accepted on my behavior in order to retain my commission in the Navy. Complete freedom to do anything we want without consequences is simply not a workable system. Likewise, it is reasonable to limit a person's ability to shout fire in a crowded theater, and it is reasonable for an employer to have the right not to employ people who express themselves in ways that draw negative attention to that employer.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Semantics. I don't consider it to be infringement if it's consentual and not coerced. Your use of the word may be more precise, but we're in total agreement otherwise.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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I am a lefty and I think these two did something very unthoughtful, ignorant, and disrespectful. Too make the assumption all lefties are like this is also unthoughtful and ignorant.


It's not how you start, it's how you finish
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Re: Moobats Desecrate the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier--Why? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Likewise, it is reasonable to limit a person's ability to shout fire in a crowded theater, and it is reasonable for an employer to have the right not to employ people who express themselves in ways that draw negative attention to that employer.


As I mentioned in my edit to my previous post, I think onerous restriction is by far the exception to the rule, and that employers who do place such restrictions are not likely to retain good employees for very long, and thus the problem of overbearing employers is essentially self-limited. But the underlying point stands: no one is being forced to work in intolerable conditions, if the word force is to retain any meaning whatsoever. Choosing the lesser of two evils is still a choice, and wherever choice is preserved, freedom exists.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Nov 23, 12 5:53
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