No matter what you do, it is just do it. I spend the last 9 months, 7 days a week on the trainer. Even with DVD's boring but I guess nothing is better than
time in the saddle.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Are you near a gym that offers classes using a Computrainer.....as in VeloSF (just for a reference site to better explain my idea)?

Stick Any AC/DC CD on, get your head down and get on with it. Job done!

What do you do about variations and things like that? New to this indoor training.

TrainerRoad (http://www.trainerroad.com/) -- well worth the monthly subscription!

If I want a hard session I turn the volume up, and if I'm after an easy one I turn the volume down. Easy as that :0)

In all seriousness I've got a power meter so I work on specific sessions based on power and where I am in my training cycle. I would 100% recommend a PM if you're serious about your training and a good book like "training and racing with a power meter".

Some of the spinerval DVDs a fine if your a bit board or just want a change from the norm. But a PM will really focus your time on the trainer and save you from wasting time with unproductive sessions.

Hope this helps you a little.

Going to look into that site. Looks great.

Gotcha, keepin it simple. Like that. PM research tonight

One of the owners is a regular poster on here, so he'll be able to answer any questions you may have about TrainerRoad. It's a great program!

Tempo, tempo, tempo and more tempo. ~85% of FTP is where I usually land.

When the time changes I go indoors M-F (and on rainy weekend days because I'm a wuss).

1 hour each day.
10' warm up
20' @ Tempo
5' easy
20' @ Tempo
5' cool down and done.

During the 20' sets I pop it up a couple of gears and stand for about 10-15 seconds. Gives your butt a break and make the workout into easy 5' bite sized chunks.

If you are feeling good, ramp it up just a bit to sweet spot.

This is the shit that kills. Do this 5 days a week and get out for longer rides on the weekend and you will crush dreams on the bike come spring.

I don't bother with FTP intervals, VO2 max, sprints etc. on the trainer. It is too much mentally. It's going to be a long winter on the trainer and it's important to stay fresh mentally.

This should not be a killer workout. It might take a week or two to get into it, but you should be able to do this day after day after day. After I broke my collar bone at the end of December I did this workout 7 days a week for about 8 weeks. Coming off of this I rode a 51:32 40km in late April on a double out and back course at sea level. On about my 4th ride outside after the collar bone I did an FTP test. 375W for 20 minutes. Most of the trainer workouts were around 300-310W, once in a while as much as 320.

This is the shit that kills.

Important things for being on the trainer.

Fans. As many as you can reasonably use. I'm outside in the garage with the door open. Even when the outside temp is around 30 degrees F, I've got two fans on my when I'm working and still get pretty soaked in sweat. Ironically, there have been a few days where I wore shoe covers because my feet were really cold while my core was soaking in sweat.

I don't have a TV in the garage, I listen to music. I like to listen to podcasts most of the time, but on the bike when it's time to actually work it has to be music. Preferably 80's hair metal. :-) I like to visualize races that I want to win. On my trainer with a good Night Ranger song going, even Eddy Merckx fears me. :-) One of those Motorola blue tooth headsets is a nice touch. I can set my phone on the work bench next to me and control the volume and skip controls by pushing a button on the headset.

I broke my other collar bone in a crit on Aug 5th, 4.5 weeks before nationals. 3 weeks on the trainer, 1.5 on the road before I went to Bend. 2nd in the TT and I won the RR solo. The week after nationals I did the Mt. Tam hillclimb and won the 45+ group. It's about a 45 minute race depending on how fast your group goes on the flat section. On the main climb? 20' @ 400W.

Why are you still reading this? Get on your freaking trainer and do some Tempo!!!

There may be better indoor schedules and workouts, but you have to be willing to do them day in and day out. 7 days of tempo is better than 4 days of FTP and 3 days of "I can't face getting on my bike".

Good luck.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Get a Power-Meter, a coach that writes power-based workouts (or a power-based plan), an Ipod, a zip-loc bag, and a box-fan.

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*********************************************
Brad Stulberg
Author, Peak Performance
http://www.BradStulberg.com

+1 on the powermeter and anything nslckevin says.

Also have to say I enjoy the sufferfest videos, helps keep the boredom level to a minimum.

Wow thats an impressive post. Thanks for all the great info. Now just have to get everything!

What kind of trainers are you guys using? I've got a fluid trainer and any time I've used it it makes a nasty vibration and feels like it doesn't want to rotate at all. I can be pedaling at max cadence and within a second or two of stopping pedaling the wheel is at a complete halt. I'm trying to get into trainer rides since it's starting to get colder in Chicagoland in the mornings.

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Michael Hebert
Hebertmike.com
Supported by: EnduroPacks | TrainerRoad | Asylum Cycles
I support: Team RWB

how often do you do the get out of the saddle and rev-it-up routine? Is is similar to the Hour-of-Power?

Also, say if I have 90 minutes every day but no good place to ride after dark, how would you change things to fill up the 90 minutes?

Thanks in advance.

You might have the tension on the flywheel too high. Try loosening the pressure that the trainer is putting on the tire. When its hooked up you should be able to see a slight depression in the tire, but nothing too crazy.

Gotta ask, zip lock bag??

TrainerRoad + Sufferfest. Done.

So if this trainerroad is like it says, $30 pwer meter, $30 ant stick and my computer, $10/mnth? Going to have to go that route, affordability for now.

Dang props!

Youre like a walking ad for bike trainers!

Plus Linkin Park tunes to rock your 60mins workout.

For the Ipod.

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*********************************************
Brad Stulberg
Author, Peak Performance
http://www.BradStulberg.com

It's not really like hour of power. My power actually drops a bit when I stand up. Maybe 15-20 watts for 10-15 seconds. It really is more of a butt break and mind break.

I do 3x20' on weekends that it rains (or when I have a broken collar bone...). I would be tentative on the idea of doing 3x20', 7 days a week. Maybe 2x20' @ Tempo and 1x20' @ maybe 70% or something for starters to see how that goes.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

I'm on a Kurt Kinetic. I really like it. It feels a lot more like riding on the road than my old crappy Blackburn trainer. I do find that at higher wattages that I ride with a lower cadence to keep the power up. For instance, I would normally do a tempo interval at ~100rpm, but on the trainer that seems too hard so I bump it up one gear and nail the power at ~90 rpm comfortably. I wonder if I got the model with the bigger flywheel with more interia would allow me to do my normal cadence.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

http://perfprostudio.com/

Just had a great winter here with Perfpro Studio. Well worth getting hold of it, some friends, some ANT+ devices and then indoor cycling is not boring

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Trust me I’m a doctor!
Well, I have a PhD :-)

Only one other Sufferlandrian out there? Check out The Hunted, you'll chase Frandy and Gesink up the mountain to pounding Aussie rock and snarky subtitles . . .

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_____________________________________
What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand

To be honest I spent the last winter at a Velodrome a lot.

Motorpace sessions mainly.

The test session is the Thursday evening one.

3hrs at
5mins 35km/hr
5mins 40km/hr
5mins 45km/hr
5mins 50km/hr

I always take the 50km/hr session as a 5 min recovery drink etc...

At the start of winter I struggled to make 60mins.

Last night I made the entire 3hrs.

So yes it took me all winter to get there but I am heaps stronger now too.

I even managed a second at a road race last weekend. IN the past I have never been able to keep up when the pace is on.

So consider a velodrome.

I was doing
Thur nites as per above.
Sat morning 2hrs of efforts
Sun arvo racing. Biggest race 80laps with sprints ever 10laps

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+1 for lowering the tension. An effective way to figure out how much tension you should have is by adjusting the tension until you can rotate the wheel a half turn with your hand, and the tire doesn't squeek or slip off the metal contact point. If it slips, tighten it some more and test it again. Wash rinse and repeat!

Hope this helps!

Works for me! Did "Angels" last night and now I can say I rode up Alpe D'huez (not going to do it any other way!)

I'll take a different tack and ask: how bad is your winter weather?

With the right clothing I'm ok riding outside down to 25 degrees F for 2-3 hours, as long as the roads are mostly dry. It's largely a matter of dressing properly. Getting outside for me then breaks up the trainer monotony, which is going to be required at some point. Then for the trainer, I'd say listen to what nslckevin says.

I have the bigger flywheel (which just bolts on) and prefer using it to the smaller one. In a couple of admittedly uncontrolled experiments I was able to get closer to a normal cadence at tempo power levels.

But I will also say that I got a LeMond trainer and prefer that to the KK. Except for having to wear earplugs.

+1

And what Kevin said.

We lurk everywhere.......

insideride rollers, sufferfest, powermeter, and many many fans and a willingness to hurt. you will be fine. Good luck!!

---

The Rat Snake:
A Tribute Race at Gilbert Lake State Park, Laurens, NY May 16 2015
Follow the Rat Snake on Twitter

This sounds good, and I am looking forward to attempting the same thing for my training this winter. however, how/when/where do your other workouts fit into your schedule? I.e. when do you swim and run? Would you share a typical 'winter week' of your training schedule?

Thanks!

Kevin plays a real sport (aka Cycling only), not just good at exercising ... No chlorine for him!

;-)

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____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

He's a cyclist. There is no "other training". Well, maybe some 12oz curls.

For a triathlete, you wouldn't necessarily want to ride 7 days, so you could drop some of those, replace w/ run (or that other thing).
You could also do a quick T-run after some of the bike workouts, for run frequency.

If you wanted to really get better on the bike, you could shelve the run and swim for a few months, and just bike, bike, bike some more.
Then this, and/or perhaps the Flanagan plan, are the way to go.

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float , hammer , and jog

I love the feel of the 55lb flywheel on my Velotron. Feels so close to riding outside,

.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Great stuff.

In the past I had done lots of these and it seemed to burn me but off season, time to think again.

I think I am reading you are saying no value with just some spinning. I have been doing a hour at L2 after my hour swim workouts, 3 days a week. 3 days are tempo on the trainer, and then an hour run. Not sure I could do another tempo ride after the swim workout.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Kevin, have given much thought to your "$#!+ that Kills" workouts. Thank you for sharing. I know that it has really caught the attention of many of us. I spoke with my coach yesterday who said three other of his athletes asked him about it this week. It seems your results speak for themselves. My understanding is that this is your training strategy from roughly now till the time changes. Which begs the question, what is your training strategy after the time change through the end of the competitive season?

+1000 on the sufferfest - if you want sharp, ass kicking workouts (and ones you won't want to do back to back), sufferfest is amazing as long as you actually do the workouts as designed...it's easy to back off of them and go half ass, but once completed, it will help immensely in your training...

hard to do LSD workouts on the trainer, unless you are crazy-driven, or somewhat insane (and yes, I know many of us are). If you have access to computrainers, the ergvideos (out of Canada) and the real video stuff from Computrainer is really great - best way to get those accomplished is to find a training center/gym/bike shop that has computrainer sessions, then go suffer with friends/like minded folk.

I think you have that backwards. He goes to that regimen once the time changes is my understanding.

Thanks again for posting a response. My own situation is that while i might get more time to ride, so I have to get on my rollers and get a trainer.

Last year I took a piece of advice from one of your teammate Carl Spackler and I realized gains beyond my wildest expectations. Hopefully this would allow me to continue my development as a cyclist.

With a statement like that, do you mind sharing Chris' advice?

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_______________________________________________

Once the "outdoor" cycling season starts for me I try to do two hard days during the week. Generally Tuesday and Thursday. Early on the hard days will be more like Tempo or Threshold. Maybe Tempo to the top of Diablo (time permitting). That works out to about an hour at Tempo pace. Or some threshold intervals. As I get closer to my "A" races (District TT in June, and nationals in September) I will start sharpening the efforts. I will start doing 5' VO2 max intervals and some 1' @ 1.5 FTP intervals. Maybe 4x5' @ VO2 max and then building up to as many as 8 (again, time permitting) as I approach my big races.

The average week looks like this:

Mon - Easy
Tues - Intervals
Wed. - In between. Like ride up Diablo, but sub tempo pace
Thur - intervals
Friday - easy
Sat - race or long ride (long is 4+ hours)
Sun - race or long hilly ride (long is 4+ hours)

Another favorite workout is what I call "Diablopalooza". A full Diablopalooza is three times up Diablo which gives you about 10k' of climbing. I like this because it gives me depth at the end of a hard road race.

While this is going on two other things are happening. It's racing season, so my weekend days are harder than during the winter, and the famous Putah Creek Smack Down (PCSD) TT's start up and I try to do as many of those as possible. The Wednesday TT kind of messes with my T-Th hard schedule. Some times I just try and force it and go hard all three days or do my Tues workout and then PCSD and take it easier on Thurs., or take Tues easier and hard on Wed. and Thurs. For the most part what I do NOT do is try to be fresh for the TT. I try to think long term and if I go 20 seconds slower at the TT because I'm tired from Tuesday, so be it.

Since I'm old I have a lot of options for racing. I almost never do 45+ road races because, well, they race like a bunch of 45 year olds. My default is 35+ (I'm 51) and for certain races I'll do the P/1/2 race. I'd rather get 5th in a P/1/2 road race than win 10 45+ races. I see guys who win lots of 45+ races and think "why the hell aren't you racing down and challenging yourself?" It also gives me a mental advantage. When I show up at nationals I KNOW that there is nobody there who can make me hurt like say, Roman Kilun or Max Jenkins or Phil Mooney, etc.

For TT's I almost always do two. Usually it works out to P/1/2 and then 45+. I am happy when I can still win the 45+ TT after doing the P/1/2 race. I actually did three this year at the Calaveras TT (10 miles). P/1/2 (3rd), 45+ (1st) and Eddy Merckx (3rd).

For crit's I pretty much always do two categories and occasionally three. If you're going to drive all that way you might as well make it worth your while. I generally pick the two that make the most sense schedule wise. It usually works out that there are two close together and then a couple of hours for the third so I'll do the closer together set. Sometimes that's 45+ and 35+ and sometimes it's 35+ and P/1/2. I did all three at the Santa Cruz Crit this year. That is pretty much the best interval workout ever. There is a hairpin turn just after the start finish and a hill leading up to the finish. So you are almost assured to have two sprint like efforts every lap. 79 laps, two jumps per lap. Yep, that was pretty much my year's quotient all in one day. :-)

I race a fair amount and I am not big on resting for races unless they are important. That may even include the day of. Before the San Rafael crit this year I did a four hour ride in the morning. Came home, showered, ate and drove to San Rafael (masters). If I was going to do the P/1/2 my morning ride would have been much shorter. But it goes back to my "is this an important race?" question. If not, I think long term and less about that day's result.

I know a lot of guys who are coached by really good coaches. Their work outs are a heck of a lot more complicated than what I do. I am a very bad person when it comes to working on my sprint. Yeah, it gets worked in crits and even road races to some extent, but I almost never go out and do jumps or something on a training ride. And hey, guess what, my sprint isn't so hot... I'll never be a sprinter, but I could probably improve some if I worked on it.

And finally race a lot. As much as possible. I've been racing since 1985 and a lot of the time I just KNOW when it's going to happen and boom, I'm in the break. This year at the Davis Crit, I only did the P/1/2 race. I started at the back and nearing half way I figured I should move up towards the front. As I was getting close they called back to back primes. I knew there would be a counter move after the 2nd prime. We crossed the line on that second prime and I was still about 10 guys back, but it was time and I jumped across to the winning break. They beat the shit out of me, but it was better than being stuck in the field!

All of my data is public. You can see it on Strava and Training Peaks.

http://www.trainingpeaks.com/...ile.aspx?p=nslckevin

http://www.strava.com/athletes/kmetcalfe

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Pop in a movie with a beat like Tron Legacy and crank it... I also search youtube for long bike race videos. I agree with h20fun that up to tempo is good for me indoors. Above that and you definitely feel the pain :) But with a power meter it's much easier to get in a specific power range and hold it indoors vice outside. Also, 2 hours total is about my limit for sanity. I did a 4 hour session last winter, but it was brutal. When doing long sessions like that I take a short break every hour and walk around a few minutes.

I really appreciate those two posts. It helps give me hope as I keep plugging away day after day. Because of my work schedule and urban area that I live, I train indoors year round inside and I am classified as a non-competitive recreational roadie. I live in the southeast and could train outside year round, but my schedule does not allow it.

My schedule for this year has been (as a goal with the monkeywrench being life and fatigue at times):

M - 60 min @ L3*
T - 3 x 20 @ L4*
W - 3 x 20 @ L4*
Th - 3 x 20 @ L4*
F - Off
Sat - Outdoor 4 to 5 hours at L2 with a mix of L3/L4 at times
Sun - Outdoor 2 x 60 @ low L3 ride average

* - I go for 3 x 91% FT, but reality is that many of the session end up in the mid to high 80% range. Sometimes I have a great day and have all three in the mid 90% range.

No sound except two fans and the faint sound of a TV show. 60 minutes of just getting it done is my hope day to day.

Anyway thanks for the posts

This is the setup I'm going after. Last winter, it was Sufferfest + PM, but on regular rollers. Would like to add the e-motions this year. Can you get your watts right up on the e-motion's, like over 800 or even 1000?

The Hunted is a great video. I use it as a base line, comparing my watts on the 20-min climb during winter training. I have them all, but The Hunted, Very Dark Place and Local Hero are my top-3. For the price, something like $12/video, you can't go wrong. Real UCI race footage. Some videos are structured workouts, others are loose and mimic racing.

Man, those are studly rides on the trainer. I have some arthritis in my right knee (and my excuse) that I just cannot hold those intervals that long. But, I just figure if I can get on the bike 7 days a week or so, like you,
it puts me ahead of most of the guys my age that just cannot keep the focus. (Which they me much smarter folks!!)

60 minutes on the trainer is about all my butt, and mind can handle also. Going to try and do the Sat rides like you do in the hills. I guess it will be what it is since currently I have no power meter for the bike. I still want to make the outside riding fun, rather than more of the numbers stress.

Sunday am going to have to start next season getting some longer 2 to 2.5 hour LSD runs in for the IM prep.

Hopefully all this we get me across the finish line in under 17 hours.

Thanks for posting your workouts.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dude, I've never even seen those numbers before on my PM!!!!!!!! click on the interactive power calculator: http://www.insideride.com/...;id=26&Itemid=69 don't know how high it can go, but for most sufferfest stuff you should be cooked!!! Good luck bro

---

The Rat Snake:
A Tribute Race at Gilbert Lake State Park, Laurens, NY May 16 2015
Follow the Rat Snake on Twitter

3-5 hrs at 75% AP or greater. Base ends after 12 or so of these. It was a chore for the first few (barely holding 205W) for 4 hours, and sometimes I was at 71% instead of 75%, but i eventually got to 230W for 4 hours. This corresponded to an increase in FTP from 265W (previous season best was 275W) to 305W, and I got up to 290W while not having done many threshold intervals.

When I started holding 210W for 3.5hrs, i kinda realized that I was going to have a good season: 8th place in a climb heavy-race, a podium in a hilly circuit race, and a lot of time off the front in race-winning moves. That said, it was only my third year of cycling, so take the gains may be quite a bit higher than what a more veteran rider would see, but on the other hand, I went from 255 to 275 the previous year, so getting more improvement in the third year than i did in my second despite having less time to train makes me a believer.

Right now, after getting burned out pretty badly (sore muscles for 6 weeks or so), I'm just beginning to rebuild. I'd be lucky to do 210W for 3hrs now, and the first one of the 12 is scheduled for next Saturday.

How many days a week did you do this? Also, what did a typical week look like for you? Thanks.

on my schedule, once a week. but do realize that my average week was 8-9 hours last year, and i'm focuses on solely bike racing. I was lucky enough to do two in a week when I was on break. Typical week would mean half of the volume come on Saturday with the other 4-5 hours spread out over 2 to 3 days.

I've since come to learn that more accomplished riders can do these type of rides back to back, though it's not easy.

This has been a great thread. Thanks to all for the info.

My volume is very similar to yours, echappist. I end up with about 3 rides of 1 hour each during week days, a 3-4 hr ride on Saturday, and a 2-3 hr ride on Sundays typically. This thread should help me focus my training this winter. I want to have a successful bike racing season next year.

I hope you appreciate what your simple question has generated. You just pulled a Jed Clampett and struck oil. Read all of Kevin's post, including his credentials, and ask yourself "Would I like to have results even remotely like this guy's?" Unless you are a fool, your answer should be "of course!" Read the rest of the thread and catch the long session attributed to Carl Spackler. You're pretty new around here, so just in case you don't know, Carl (he's not really the grounds keeper from Caddy Shack) has some pretty impressive credentials, like also having a red, white, and blue jersey and, if memory serves, second at world's by a painfully small margin.

Thank you for posting this. You have unintentionally set up most of my winter training for me. Thanks nlsckevin and echappist (and Carl) for posting these sessions. Simple, straight forward, and seemingly right on target.

I will add this caveat, don't get down if you can't pull off these sessions right away, these guys are seasoned cyclists. Oh, and just ignore the power numbers posted in the thread. Worry about your numbers and pushing them up. The problems with comparing to ST posters are 1) some guys lie and 2) some guys are competing at really high levels. If your numbers approach their's, congrats, if not, hey it's ok to be a mere mortal.

 

Thanks for the kind words, i'm flattered as my name really shouldn't be mentioned in the same line as that of Carl & Kevin.

I do want to emphasize one point you just made, which i've bolded. Last year, I was still fairly new to structured training and had many wrong concepts regarding training. Anyways, there was one week when i pushed on instead of resting, and it wasn't pretty. The previous week, i did 4hrs at 74%. One week later, i ran out of power after 2.5 hours and was still a good 40 miles from home; I crawled home at 62% FTP for the last two hours. I should have known right there and then to take a nice long rest, but I didn't. Went out again a few days later and was savaged by the ride, again doing something like 57% FTP for the last three hours. They were so bad that I have yet to ride those routes since.

Those weeks were really not pretty, and it took me two more weeks before I went north of 75% FTP for more than three hours. So, for new rider trying this, take your rests seriously and don't try to bit off too much at once. Above all, consistency, rather than approaching it with "i want to shatter my previous PB," drives your fitness.

incredible advice... I almost burned out of tri's because of an injury and wanting to do only hard workouts on the bike...

Thanks for the details. I did some of this type of stuff mid-season, but likely not enough of it ~ only 3 weeks or so. I don't remember having much trouble holding 75% AP for 3 hours, but I don't think I ever went beyond that time wise. It's possible that my FTP may have also been higher than I thought as I don't test very often. I'll certainly try at least 10 weeks of this early season.

My weakness seems to be a low FTP compared to my 5min. power, which is not surprising as I did a lot of 5min. intervals this season. Most of the climbs in the races I do are in the 3-8 minute range. Having a good 5min. power allowed me to make the selection and follow any dangerous attacks on the climbs, but I struggled at times in the cross winds when I couldn't get a good draft when things would heat up.

I'm planning a lot of tempo and sweet spot this winter based on the gains it gave me this season.

This has been a great thread, as is the other one going on right now, "tempo, threshold, or VO2max".

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funny that you bring this up as in 2011, my FTP was 275, and 5.5min was 365. I had such trouble bringing up FTP relative to VO2max that i started a thread about it on the wattage forum. I don't think my 5min improved last year, and in fact, and it may have gone down, but my FTP was now 305. Whereas before I had trouble racing collegiate C races, I was now doing well in collegiate B races, though a good deal of it came from better race craft.

The downside is that I've turned into a diesel and lack the snap needed on the hills you described, though I could usually bridge back solo after getting gapped a bit. Actually, my one-time max actually didn't go down (though this could be masked by a higher threshold), but apparently my ability at tolerating repeated efforts in the 3-8 minute range really went down. Given that I didn't spend much time with VO2max stuff last year (maybe 6 workouts total), this is what I'll be focusing on this year as none of my races have hill longer than 6 minutes. Then again, I may have gotten rather close to my 5min power limit, though I really doubt that. We'll see how things pan out this year, assuming i have enough time to train and race as I'm leaving school and starting a new job.

With all of that said, it may be that you are a natural pursuitist, in which case, attack from 2 miles out like Phil Gil and make everyone hurt :). I personally always wanted to be a puncheur more than a diesel grimpeur.

[/quote] With all of that said, it may be that you are a natural pursuitist, in which case, attack from 2 miles out like Phil Gil and make everyone hurt :). I personally always wanted to be a puncheur more than a diesel grimpeur.[/quote]

Ha, I've tried that - though I need a hill as a launching pad to be successful. With being only 65kg I need gravity to work against the others!


You likely didn't do enough VO2 stuff on top of the FTP work you did, where I was the opposite - I neglected FTP in the season, and only focused on VO2 work. It sounds like we'll both get our shit together this season.


Good luck.


BTW - Thanks Kevin for all your wisdom and taking the time to write that amount of detail. It's really appreciated.

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Thanks for the great reply. I love the simplicity of it all. Last question, how important is it that we have to listen to Night Ranger during the workouts? Just kidding of course. Again many thanks.

None of this works if you don't listen to Night Ranger. Specifically, Don't Tell Me You Love Me

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Check out the trainer workouts on my website: http://www.anaerobiczone.com

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Dean Wilson
http://www.anaerobiczone.com
Bicycle Protection Indoors & Out

Wow, wasnt sure who to respond to but thought that you would be best. Just wanted to thank everyone for the advice. This is the first year of hard training for me, i have been doing sprint tri's and a couple duathlons. I have feel in love with bikjng and really want to improve and push for a HIM in 2013. With all this great stuff i will havs to print the thread and digest it all. Thanks again. For thoss interested leaning towards trainerroad with PM for a couple months to really get comfortable with the trainer and be structured. Then probably taper off and do some mix of all the great stuff here. HIM training begins in May so i have a good amount of time to "study"

Computrainers are the way to go. A bit pricey (pick on up used) but they roll smoothly and ensure you're putting in the necessary effort.

Kevin,
Your results are awesome, especially for your age. You're crazy fast. You are the one that got me going on the 2 x 20's last winter, on the trainer, 6 days/week.
I'm almost 42, and just finished my 1st 'real' season of bike racing having switched from tri's ~2008.

Looking at your training peaks you do put in a considerable amount of time on the bike.
From February 1 to April 30, you averaged 14 hrs/week, and from May 1- July 31, you averaged 16 hrs/week.
I probably averaged ~ 9-10 hrs with a few 12 hr weeks. I had some decent results in Masters but I want to do even better. Obviously I need to do more if I want to take it up a notch. However one of the things that got me out of tris was trying to find the time to put in 15 hrs/week.
2 questions:
1. Do you know many guys that can race well on ~10 hrs/week or is it a must to get up to 14-16 hrs like yourself?
2. What are your deciding facots when choosing to race Category or Masters for different races? I could race Cat 3, but I tend to enter Masters. Maybe I'm thinkin Cat 3 would be too fast for me.
Marty

I do know guys who ride well (some quite well) on 10-12 hours a week. They are not doing so well in long road races, but for criteriums, track and flat road races you can do quite well on that amount of training. It takes hard and specific training.

If I'm going to do a P/1/2 race I need to feel like I'm going well unless the course isn't very challenging. I want to be challenged, but I still want the possibility of doing well. Sometimes I get it wrong like I did this year at Pescadero. It is a hard course, but it conflicted with elite nationals so I figured that it wouldn't be so bad. I neglected to consider that the local pro climber guys like Nate English and Max Jenkins were still in town. I got a pretty good kicking that day! A bit over 7 minutes at 6 W/kg BARELY had me holding on for the first of four trips up Haskins.

As for Cat 3 vs masters, I would wager that masters can be quite a bit faster. I would guess that in a cat 3 race the top quality isn't as high, but the depth of that quality is good so somebody will always be willing to have a go. In the masters you've got some legitimate cat 1's in the group so the top end quality is much higher, but the depth of quality is less. So when the masters race is "on" it will be going really fast and there may be less places to hide, but it may be "on" less often. The masters race will probably be more tactical also. Cat 3's as a group generally haven't figured out the tactics yet. There tends to be a lot of chasing.

Hope that helps.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Hey, Kevin. I, too, hate to let this thread go. So, one more question. Are you doing any weight training and from now till spring and are you still trying to get in 2 long 4 hour plus rides on the weekends? Well, I guess that's two questions.

Thanks again!

When you say 3-5 hrs at 75% AP or greater.

Do you mean an average power at 75% of FTP, or am I missing something there?

yes. i said it that way to highlight that it's the AP not NP you are shooting for

I don't lift in the off season mainly due to time constraints. It's either lift or ride and that's a pretty easy choice for me. If I had the time I would probably lift weights. Not so much legs, but stuff to strengthen my core and lower back as I sometimes have lower back issues.

Weather permitting I get out for two 4+ hour rides each weekend. If the weather is bad then I'll just do 3x20' intead. [edited from 3x30' to the correct 3x20']

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

nslckevin,

Just ran across this post. Wanted to ask you what you do about your run volumes during this time. For someone new to the sport with limited time bc of my job curious to hear an opinion on how to work all the training in. Usually I run at least 45 min a day and cycle ( similar workout as you describe ~ 2days week on a trainer) and swim here and there. You think I could brick 2-3 of these workouts/week and keep them repeatable throughout the week? Cycling is my weakest leg...train your weakness right. Would you consider this length of workout to be sufficient for Oly distance training or Sprint distance.
Thanks

So in a nut shell cycle training is quite simple its just most of us make it more complicated than it needs to be. Still no substitute for hard work and consistency though.

i really enjoyed reading this thread, i'm also 51 and am thinking about what I want to do this winter. I'm open to trying the repeated days of tempo, but i'm wonder how it is supposed to progress over time, more duration, more watts or just the same (more or less) workout every day of the week?

I race cross in the fall, so Don't do a great deal on the trainer until close to the holidays. I use rollers and doing tempo is just a whole lot easier on them than trying to go all hard.

How often do you retest your FTP while following that protocol, or do you just aim for an additional 5-10W every few weeks?

The trainer is a relentless a-hole training partner. It never gives you a break, no stop lights/signs.....just bzzzzzzzzzz. When you can get to the point you are doing the same time volume on the trainer you took on ourdoor rides you have become a monster. What used to take 3 hours to accomplish in my zones on the road suddenly took a bit over an hour. Seriously....when I went to the trainer I was shocked saying 'damn I have only been on here an hour and am whipped' and couldn't figure it out. It's pretty amazing how much time is wasted coasting, stopping and dodging on a ride.

i'm always struck by that. when I download a power file from a typical hilly endurance ride of say 4 hours, it always seems like there is an hour plus of of crap below 100w

I'm surprised it's only 25% of your ride! This would most likely be attributed to where you live, but for riding where I live it's 50% anyway of total ride time....spent picking your arse. That's why I do my 'business end' training at home so I can really get it on.

i am lucky to be able to ride pretty much every day without encountering a stoplight or busy highway. You made me curious so I looked at a random file for a bread and butter day of 2.5 hours and there was 1.03 of "active recovery" of 0-169w and 20 mins beyond 325, so it's kind of all over the board without a ton of structure.

If I'm ambitious I will test once during the winter (late Dec., early Jan.) and again in the early spring, but testing is not something I'm all that concerned with. I can get a pretty good idea of how well I'm going by how the workouts feel and by what I can do in early season races. If I'm doing my 2x20's at say 300 watts comfortably day after day and progress to 310 and then 320 I know that is a good thing. I can't necessarily link those workout wattages to a FTP, but I'm not that concerned.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

This. A thousand times over. Even more so if you have a trainer with an erg mode. Set that thing to x watts and there is no where to hide. Outdoor riding has its training advantages as well, namely that terrain forces some varied power outputs, but indoor riding is the real ass kicker.

i did this workout today, i really enjoyed it as it wasn't arduous but felt like good work. I was about 80% of ftp, I figure I'll try stacking a few days back to back and see how my body feels.

time in saddle

Does anyone else other than CT have erg modes?

tacx has a number of models, also saris powerbeam

Cool!

As long as you're not in my age group that is... :-)

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

it's essential that you have a bright and attractive place to train indoors like mine. Your garage just won't cut it. I've lead that panel box out for more sprints than I can count.

Sometimes I will do random length intervals by using songs, like two songs hard, one easy. It can be challenging especially if you have a really random music assortment. A 90 second punk song for recovery sucks big time.

Honestly Snyder2165, and not knowing anything about you, i'd focus on a few things this winter:
1. Weight - it's the most effective/guaranteed way to improve performance, assuming you don't take it off too quickly.
2. Set goals for the season - You need to know where you are trying to get.
3. If you ride on a trainer, try to make it fun and work on your pedal stroke. I've seen folks ruin themselves by May because they went way too hard during the winter and burned themselves out. Thinking about maximizing your pedal stroke makes the time go by faster.
4. Work on your position on the bike

Try it to AC/DC "Black ice"... It'll turn you into the sporn of Bradley Wiggins and Tony Martin come next season.
I do the preloaded 25mile TT on my bushido to it, I can go under the hour but my aim is to beat the CD before it starts from the beginning again. 55:38. Slim chance I recon!

This is an interesting stress on my body, I have done the workout for 3 days now, I did add a second workout on TU which was a evening cyclocross practice but kind of dogged it on purpose (I run it so am entitled) then yesterday extended it to 2 hours total, then today being a little tired stuck with the 1 hour. It's not so hard to hit around 80% without a lot of concentration.

My legs feel a little tired and heavy, I'm cross racing sunday so might not overdo the rest of the week. It seems like pretty low volume but I'm curious how it affects my legs, it's different from any sort of winter junk I usually do.

I'm doing this, too. Thought it would be interesting to see the effect on my legs. However, I've been hitting about 88-90% FTP for the 20' intervals, and I've thrown in some harder sub-intervals (FTP and VO2max), too. For example, in one workout, I did the last 5 min of each 20' interval at FTP. In another, I did the 20' intervals and then after my last rest interval, I added 5 x 1' at VO2max. I've definitely noticed a little residual fatigue, and I'm thinking this is telling me that my "tempo intervals" are a little too hard, particularly if I want to put a few short, hard efforts, too. Probably wouldn't be bad for a couple of weeks, but I can see this burning me out after a while if I don't throttle back just a tad.

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-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins

I don't believe anyone has mentioned Turbo Crank. It's a computer-based program that has about a dozen different types of workouts. It doesn't appear to be as comprehensive or as technology-centric as Trainer Road (thanks for sharing that link, btw - looks great), but for $20, it's not a bad option.

I've been using Turbo Crank on my Mac for the past two years and it's helped break-up some of the monotony. I set it up alongside the television and pedal away.

Sorry for the dumb question, I am new to actually thinking about my training in intervals term. When you say 20' @Tempo, you mean 20' at your 85% FTP (or whatever you picked for this), nonstop (+/- your 10-15 sec of standing up every once in a while)?

Yep. The 10', 5' and 5' easy sections end up at around 50-60% of FTP and the two 20' sections usually average ~85-88% of FTP. The three short breaks I take at 5', 10', and 15' to stand up are only 10-20 seconds long and the power drops down to maybe 80% and doesn't really affect the average.

The whole workout ends up averaging out to about 75% of FTP for 1 hour and burns about 1,000 KJs. It also has the added bonus of starting the day and knowing exactly how many calories I can consume that day if I want to maintain or lose weight. Can't count how many times I've come home during the summer with the idea of doing a certain ride, ate bars accordingly and then ended up doing something a lot lighter and wished I hadn't eaten so much!

It really is brainless for me. It just works out that I settle into a 50x16 @ 90-92 rpm. That cadence combined with the resistance characteristics of my Kurt Kinetic Road Machine dials in around 310-320 watts. I can pretty much close my eyes and daydream and hit that cadence and power. I normally spin more, closer to 100-105rpm on the road. I tried to hit my desired wattage in my 50x17 at the higher rpm's and that was hard. I had to concentrate at it and the RPE was higher, so I said, "screw it" and went to the larger gear and slightly lower cadence.

The important things are:

1. The workouts are physically hard enough, but not too hard.
2. They are something I can do day after day.
3. They are not something that make me dread getting on the bike (like say, 2x20' @ FTP would).
4. The workout is mentally easy. On Mt. Diablo, I'll do 40' @ Tempo or even FTP and that's not so hard mentally. 40' @ Tempo on the trainer would be harder mentally than 2x20'.
5. The 10-20 second stand up breaks at 5, 10, and 15' in each 20' interval make it much easier mentally and more bite sized. You're never more than 5' from a break.

---

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

That sounds good. Thanks for the explanations. I like the "brainless" part, because honestly, I am an outdoors rider so I'm going to need something that does not require concentration to stay on. I just bought The Sufferfest's videos and hope those will be fun, but something mindless while I look at shows or try to read would be awesome. I'll try your recipe!

I am pretty much confined to a trainer for 8 weeks, this due to a broken and plated collar bone suffered in a road race crash.

I was competing in one of the hardest 7 day tours in tough windy / wet / snow conditions and was carrying an extreme amount of form into the race, I crashed out 45 minutes in to the second day. Days stages were between 137 and 181 km.

The first thing I did was organize the best trainer I could afford, I settled on the v2 of the Lemond Revolution trainer and fitted it up with my best 11-21 training cassette and put my V7 wireless SRM in the training bike. The first thing I noticed was how quiet the Lemond Revolution was (contrary to most of the reviews and feed back). I like this direct drive option as it saves on tyres (I have been known to strip out a rear tyre in a single trainer session).


I broke my collar bone, had surgery and was discharged from hospital in all under a day (30th October), I was out of town and had airfares booked for the 4th November, so stayed around until then.


I did my first Lemond Trainer session on the 10th November, I hate trainers, full stop, I would prefer to train in wind, rain, cold and prefer the most rugged conditions rather than sit on a trainer. I hour max is all I can mentally handle.


I focus on the 1 hour of power, I target a 100 TSS and a 1.0IF at a FT0f 385 watts. I do 6 x 1 hour sessions per week, either made up of long FT efforts or easy spin with supramax efforts, pyramids (1 minute very hard, 1 minute easy, 2 minutes very hard, 2minutes easy, 3, 4 , 5 minutes etc) or 5 minutes at 460 watts, 5 minutes at 300 watts doing this for 60 minutes or 440 watts for 60 minutes. I have 6 workouts on this them. The only common them is 100 TSS, 1.0 IF for 60 minutes and 96 cadence average.


I am looking forward to get back on the road bike early January - mid January at the latest, so until then it is 6 hours a week of 1 hour of power.

I only got a power meter earlier than year so I haven't been training long with it.
However, in the 4 months since I bought it my FTP has gone up from 30 watts (Up to 4.5 watts/kg)

Pretty much all I can do is echo most of the comments posted earlier in the thread.

In summary,

• 2 x 20mins @ 90-95% on the bike trainer is hard but effective (something I could only do 2 times a week)
• 2+ hours @ 85-90% is very effective in raising FTP (hard as hell though)
• Doing quality swimming and running sessions whilst doing the FTP and Tempo intervals is almost impossible.
• It takes time to improve so plan minimum 4-6 week blocks.
• Don't neglect rest and recovery!

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The Power of the Mind -
Triathlete, Cyclist & Medical Student Blog
http://willtruong.blogspot.com.au

CycleTEK Momentum1 trainer http://cycletek.com/ + The Walking Dead = one heck of a workout. Training for the zombie apoxalypse, nothing makes me pedal harder!

It is my understanding from the Cycletek facebook page that their power data was submitted to trainerroad, Cycletek should be compatible for virual power on trainerroad soon

This, unfortunately

Kevin, many thanks for sharing your training. I've been trying to incorporate aspects of your program since about mid September. Thanks for answering my previous questions on getting started. A couple of questions have come up since then though. Using my FTP to calculate 85-88% value for the workouts, I have found that by the end of several week days I'm somewhat fatigued. I can still do threshold workouts but VO2 range is tough to hit on some of the hills on my Saturday ride. My FTP is 310 and I'm holding 270 to 285 for the threshold to sweet spot workouts. I may be pushing it a little too hard on the weekends with ~4 to 5 hr rides that have a TSS of around 300 and an easier 2.5 hr ride on Sunday with a TSS of around 80 to 130. I'll usually take Monday off but on Tuesday I still only really feel like only doing 1 X 20. My question to you is, do you think I'm riding too hard on the weekends? I feel as if I'm working pretty hard at 85-88% of my FTP during the week and I'm going into my longer weekend workouts tired. I plan on testing in two weeks and am looking forward to the results since my last years training schedule had me at pretty much the same CTL at this same time. Thanks again.

My weekend rides are actually fairly easy. Using TSS as a metric they range from about 120 on the low side to maybe 200.

Example, on Saturday 11/10. ~4:45 on the bike, 183 TSS.
Sunday 11/18 is a pretty good representation of my Sunday rides. ~4:25 on the bike, 162 TSS.

These are NOT hard rides. They are rides where I enjoy being on the bike with my friends. The hard work is indoors M-F. Sure, I'll hit the gas for a while on a climb if I feel like it, but 90% of it is pretty conversational. There is time for the weekends to be hard later as I start racing and then when the sun comes back and I can ride outdoors during the week my weekday rides get more traditional. i.e. hard/easy Except at that point, hard becomes REALLY hard. FTP, VO2 max and above intervals.

It's all public on Training Peaks and Strava if you're interested.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Spin class

I don't recall anyone asking for the opinion of spammers.

Kevin & others, do you guys target what your outdoor FTP would be and transfer that to the trainer? I find it impossible to match my outside watts with trainer rides. For instance, I will do 2x 20' outside around 315-320 watts, but on the trainer I'm right around 300 watts at a similar HR.

I did a trainer session yesterday where the main set was 6x (5' @ 325 watts, 2' @ 200 watts). I felt much more drained than doing 2x 20' @ 300 watts, and my total wattage at the end of each 1 hr session was identical - avg HR was 3 beats higher. Is there any added benefit to doing the workout with the shorter intervals?

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

Your indoor HR is always going to be higher than outdoors unless you're using multiple large fans and the ambient temperature is much lower than room temp. The impact of lack of cooling is proportional to power output so it's not surprising that the higher power intervals feel tougher.

Do you do the same 6x5x2 intervals outdoors?

I've got two large box fans, and the temp is in the low 60's in my basement. As for doing the same intervals outside, I haven't done that specific one before. When riding outside I'll generally stick to 2x 20' or on a longer ride alternate between IM and HIM pace.

---

Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

We do 1.5 to 2 hours at a bike store (Speed Theory Vancouver) every Saturday morning, good structured stuff. Today, Zach Bell, Canadian Olympian joined us.

I love that they have 2 flat Screen TVs that list the workout, count doen at times etc.

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Cervelo R3 and Cannondale Synapse, Argon18 Electron Track Bike

As has been said: make sure you have a plan for each workout. Just getting on an indoor trainer several times a week isn't going to do much.

Trainerroad plans are great to follow if you don't either have your own training plan or have a coach who gives you one.

For the boredom / distraction factor: HBO Go / hulu / Suffferfest videos (variation) / DVDs. Just make sure that you check every now and then that you are following your plan.

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Matthew
Twitter: @AlphaDogCycling
Instagram: @AlphaDogCycling

I've been doing these intervals (without a PM) and I like it a lot. I'm getting a heart rate monitor for Christmas so I'm wondering if you can tell me approximately what zones I should be in for the Tempos? My (wild) guess would be Z3 in the first 5 min. or so and upper Z4 for the remaining 15 once your HR catches up to the hard work?

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-------------------
Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

Netflix, Hulu, DVDs, Youtube... all these are always good help for me.

And always try to do some intervals chaning intensity, your legs will feel it and will get stronger.

My HR during these intervals ends up being around 155 average. For a 20-40' TT my HR would average around 175 or so.

Hope that helps.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Hey Kevin, great post. You've pretty much convinced me to bang out 2 x 20 six days per week at 88- 90% of my FT. I'm averaging 250's in 53/18 @92/93 cadence so I'm not in the 300watt club yet. My question...are you're sure about the gearing your using to elicit 310-320 watt. Because on my trainer 53/16 is required to get a similar wattage. Cheers

Yep. 50x16 is my "on" gear. Maybe the difference is from the different resistance curve for different trainers?

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Hmm, even though we're both using Kurt Kinetic trainers?This morning's 2 x 20's were in 53/17 pretty close to 50x16 ~ watts 267 and 275 (cadence 93). Oh well, I'll keep training maybe 300watts FT by April :-)

Hmm, even though we're both using Kurt Kinetic trainers?This morning's 2 x 20's were in 53/17 pretty close to 50x16 ~ watts 267 and 275 (cadence 93). Oh well, I'll keep training maybe 300watts FT by April :-)[/quote]
Temperature? It's in the 30's in my garage lately.
I'm using a SRM, what about you? If you're using a power tap at least part of the difference would be the drive train losses.
I'm using Q-Rings which probably bumps my power numbers up a bit.
I tighten the drum three full turns of the knob from the point of contact with the tire.
Looking at the power curve for the Kurt Kinetic it appears to indicate a power closer to mine than yours based on the speed of approximately 22.3mph.
http://www.kurtkinetic.com/powercurve.php

Finally whenever you have two devices measuring something and they don't agree, my plan of action is always to take the measurement that is the most impressive. :-) Therefore mine is right. If two thermometers say 95 and 102 on a hot summer day. Boom, it's 102. Cold day skiing? 18 and 25? Boom, it's 18 degrees.
I can't believe I need to teach you guys these things... :-)

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Temperature? It's in the 30's in my garage lately.
I'm using a SRM, what about you? If you're using a power tap at least part of the difference would be the drive train losses.
I'm using Q-Rings which probably bumps my power numbers up a bit.
I tighten the drum three full turns of the knob from the point of contact with the tire.
Looking at the power curve for the Kurt Kinetic it appears to indicate a power closer to mine than yours based on the speed of approximately 22.3mph.
http://www.kurtkinetic.com/powercurve.php

Finally whenever you have two devices measuring something and they don't agree, my plan of action is always to take the measurement that is the most impressive. :-) Therefore mine is right. If two thermometers say 95 and 102 on a hot summer day. Boom, it's 102. Cold day skiing? 18 and 25? Boom, it's 18 degrees.
I can't believe I need to teach you guys these things... :-)[/quote] Cool, OK oh wise one! - gimme a prediction. If i bang these efforts 6 times per week at 90% FT. Will I get to 300watt FT by end of March/April?(In 2008 I did a 60min ride at 300watts on KK's Christmas Cracker power meter. Despite what Kurt says I never believed those numbers neither did anyone else)

 
Finally whenever you have two devices measuring something and they don't agree, my plan of action is always to take the measurement that is the most impressive. :-) Therefore mine is right. If two thermometers say 95 and 102 on a hot summer day. Boom, it's 102. Cold day skiing? 18 and 25? Boom, it's 18 degrees.
I can't believe I need to teach you guys these things... :-)[/quote]
I totally agree.
My rule of thumb, round down on time, and up on distance. Works for me.

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Dredging up this old thread for a couple of reasons...
We've received some result information (http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;), I know it's n=1 stuff, but you've got to admit the result is impressive.
I'm so impressed with the way Kevin interacts in this and the result thread. From answering the most basic questions to the nitty gritty tech stuff, he just happy to help anyone out. I love this place.

Sufferfest all the time. They have a new one...blender. It's 1:40 of awesomeness. I've markedly improved from my Suffer sessions on the trainer. I'm a girl and I was able to stay with the fast boys this year. IWKMATTKYT.

Indoor cycling is the easiest, simplest and effective way of workout at home. My wife and I both are working and have got busy schedule throughout the week therefore we don't get ample time to gear up ourselves and go out for cycling. Then we planned to start this basic exercise at home and bought an indoor cycling bike from http://www.spinning.com around 3 months back, thereafter, we daily invested 20-25 min working out at home and finally we have yield results. I burned many calories and lost some weight, my wife has lost few inches and we are going good to keep ourselves fit.
It kind of makes us feel proud.

^^^ A little spam gave this a great thread a timely bump given the time change this weekend.

Has anyone seen a trainerroad workout that matches Kevin's plan below? I looked and didn't see one that matched.

Yeah, when I saw "we daily invested 20-25 min working out at home and finally we have yield results", I knew it was spam. Wrong audience. Maybe this should have been posted on a Crossfit forum...

I made my own in the workout creator. Currently, there is no way to share it through Trainerroad, though.

http://www.trainerroad.com/...ides/447691-Metcalfe

Try Eichorn

Thanks both! geauxtri, wow you've been doing it a bunch, and it looks like it's working. Nice!

I had created that workout plus a 2x30 workout for the off season. Then I sprained my ankle, and couldn't run so I decided to just try out these workouts in lieu of the last 4 weeks of the TT plan I was following. I've found them a great way to start the day, and at an 1h or 1h20m, it doesn't take up too much time to complete.

Current plan is to stick with this through December. Once January rolls around, I'll try to line up plans around races. I really liked the 40K TT plan and will probably stick with it as my lead out plan to races next year.

I tried to do regular 2x20s or even 2x 30s @ FTP, and all I can say is WOW HARD.

They sound so easy to do in theory. In practice, what a world of hurt.

I don't bust them out until the 2 months before race day anymore since they're so depressingly hard to do. I would lose all joy in cycling if I had do do these several times per week, even though they are so darn time efficient.

These workouts are not at FTP. These are around 85% to 88% FTP. I have my workout set at 85% for the 20 min or 30 min segments, but usually ride somewhere between 88% to 91%.

Read this comment in the thread http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=4193285#4193285. It's all about tempo, which can be done day in and day out.

These are the bits that were the real revelation for me from Kevin's posts. I've been going too hard on the trainer. I then dread getting on the trainer, so I don't get on the trainer as often as I should. I'm going to try the go a little easier and more often approach. Makes sense to me.

With a busy schedule, I struggle to get long hours in. I recently downloaded Sufferfest, The Downward Spiral. This features two sets of 17 mins (2 min on 2 min off, 1:45 on 1:45 off etc to 15 sec.) totaling 60 mins of spinning. It has been a big help to get me out of zone 1. Well worth the $12. When time permits, pop in your favorite TV series and spin for 2+ hours.

I started doing the "Metcalfe" as well. I may get to 7 days/week, but for now have done 5 a couple weeks in a row which is more frequency that before. It's certainly repeatable as well as creating a decent fitness response which IMHO trumps all if you want to improve. What is the 40TT plan you refer to?
Mark

indoor is great for souplesse ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyTTu4Hmx6s



old skool drum rollers for flawless spinning...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVbwngNoHm0

I followed the Mid Volume during the last training block before injuring my ankle. It was a really good plan. Will be using either the mid or high volume next year.

Reading some of these posts along with having started on the trainer this week got me to thinking.

I was able to get out for an afternoon ride on Diablo on Thursday. My legs were tired. Not like I had raced tired, but they were on the heavy side. When I get on the trainer in the morning it takes me a few minutes to get going, but it's not so bad.

The point is that these workouts are not easy and by the end of the week I can feel it. My weekend rides are NOT "training". I do the hard work during the week and the weekend is about having fun on the bike with my friends. This is how I get through the winter. Work during the week and long fun rides on the weekend. Sure I'll hit it hard here and there, but weekend rides are NOT "workouts". That's my approach.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Get a computrainer or better yet, find an indoor cycling gym so you can workout with others.

The computrainers now have several different software programs that work with them, so you will NEVER get bored.

IronMan real course videos, Erg Videos and now the AWESOME Tour de Giro software...can't beat it!

Watching movies helps with the long rides, (action movies help get the pace going a little easier). Also spinning with other people while blasting some tunes really helps get the workout going.

Kevin, I have a question about your tempo workout program.
1. is this a good way to increase FTP or just maintain your FTP? i need to increase my FTP, but right now can only ride 3-4 days a week due to marathon focus and running about 70 miles a week right now. Would you use a different plan if you could only ride 3-4 times a week? i did your workout today (actually eichorn on trainer road, but its close to what you do) and averaged 88% on the 2 x20's. Good workout, not too taxing. legs were still a little tired from my 18 miler at MP+10 secs this am, but it seems like workout i should be able to do daily along with my running.

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Let food be thy medicine...

I think that these workouts hold my FTP to a high level and minimize the winter drop off more than raise it. This is given that you are coming off of race fitness vs. trying to get fit. I would be surprised to see FTP gains from this on 3-4 days a week unless your current FTP is below what you are capable of. It could be a good way to keep your FTP from dropping though with a minimal investment in time given your current focus.

But I am NOT a coach or trained in any way shape or form as a coach or physiologist. I am just a bike racer who's been doing this a REALLY long time and found something that works pretty well by mooching bits and pieces from other people.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Indoor cycling has certainly increased my endurance power. After loosing few inches, I feel pretty confident about myself. Infact, this exercise has inculcated enthusiasm in me and has increased my stamina to do more indoor cycling.

I'm wondering if Kevin or anyone else has thoughts on if there is anything magic about 2 x 20 mins tempo?

I'm thinking a 60 min workout with 4 x 10 mins or 3 x 13.3 mins at tempo with shorter breaks would be a way to mix it up. The trainerroad sweet spot base plans seem to take this approach.

After doing this workout since September, if anything, I'll make the intervals longer, not shorter. I've been doing 3-4 2x20 and 1-2 2x30 workouts each week. Just stand for bit, as Kevin suggests, to break it up if you need to.

You're riding at tempo pace. Why have a recovery break at all? It's more a mental break than anything or enough time to have a quick drink and give the lads a bit of saddle relief.

I'd be more inclined to not drop power periodically but rather to put in a punchy power effort periodically.

if riding nearer to threshold power level, then an occasional short break makes far more sense.

Have you tried it? 40 minutes at SS on a trainer is a real drag - that little break is huge for me in the middle of it. I'd end up forcing a break for position change anyway if I were doing a 40 straight at SS on the trainer.

Nslckevin's post is inspirational.


How (if at all) would you adjust this training regime to nail ironman distance?

Thanks in advance!

A lot of great stuff on this thread. My 2 cents- I believe that having good mechanical and muscular efficiency at a wide range of cadence is extremely important. For example- if you are climbing a 8-10 % extended grade, you need to be comfortable at lower cadence, and if you have a screaming downhill, you will be much faster if you can push 130 + cadence as opposed to 100. The trainer is a great place to work on this, so here is a set I like to do:
10 minute warm up- 90-95 RPM, easy
10 minutes 90-95 RPM at 75-85% FTP
10 minutes in hardest gear (ie- 53 x 11), keeping 75-85% FTP- this normally results in a cadence for me of 55-60
10 minutes in easiest gear (ie- 39 x 25), I don't worry about % FTP, just the highest cadence I can maintain with good form, for me typically 125-130 RPM

I will typically repeat 2- 3 times, depending on motivation and where I am in the season. I try to do this at least once a week, mixed in with similar tempo sets that have been posted.
Have Fun :-)

Thanks Kevin for all the great information. I looked at your Strava profile compared to me. Um, looks like I need to get to work and climb WAY more. (Diagnosed with asthma last years, it's taken a while to get under control, so limited climbing this year)

Would you say that your regimen might differ in that you have many years of work behind you? I've been cycling for 5 years and I'm 58. I also don't race (occasional TT which I like, though it hurts like hell) and various Fondos. My bike handling skills are too poor and would endanger other racers.

As for the trainer workouts, I'm currently (November/December) doing the Trainer Road Base Mid Volume 1 which is mostly Endurance. Last year I was doing more of the Sweet Spot.

Do you think theses Base levels are too easy?

Thanks

Avg Rides / Week75Avg Distance / Week469 km275 kmAvg Time / Week17hr 20m11hr 7mYEAR-TO-DATEDistance17,614.9 km11,078.7 kmTime646hr29m450hr38mElev Gain188,303m65,015mRides345248

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Cervelo R3 and Cannondale Synapse, Argon18 Electron Track Bike

The key point in Kevin's training is that running and cycling are a bit different in how the body responds. You can spend the winter running pretty easy and because of the weight bearing nature of the sport, your body gets a lot of stress and adapts. Just riding around easy on the bike at "endurance" is not a very effective use of limited time on the bike. A pro racer who does stages races and 5 hour events 10 months out of the year can take some time to just putter around, knowing he'll be riding himself into shape as early as Feb in a stage race.

For the rest of us, use the trainer time for that tempo and get the fenders out for the weekend longer rides. Because you are running so much, it's hard to picture you doing a ton of additional quality on the bike without compromising your recovery. You might want to experiment with some shorter blocks of tempo on your easy days and see how your body reacts, maybe even workouts that total 30-40 minutes of trainer time at 85% rather than longer hunks droning along. The objective isn't to get better at riding slowly for longer periods...

I think what's magic about 2 x 20 at "tempo" is it allows you to get a TSS of just under 100 in 60 minutes. Perfect. In theory you should be able to do this continually day after day after day and still recover.

Personally, I only do 2 x 20 once or twice per week and rotate thru some other similar workouts which keep me just under 100 tss. 3 x 10, 3 x 8, and a nice 6 x 6 @ sst with only 2 min recoveries. On the weekends I do 3 x 20 & a more complicated workout which bring me over 100 tss. All workouts are CompuTrainer .erg workouts. Every month I bump up the wattage by 5 watts for all or some key parts of the workouts to apply progressive resistance.

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Lewis

Are you sure you have your FTP set correctly? 60 minutes straight at threshold is 100 TSS. 2x20 at tempo with a warm up and cool down will probably be more like 60-70 TSS.

2x20 at 85% gets me 61 TSS and 2x30 at 85% gets me 85 TSS.

That would indeed be magic.

40 minutes straight at tempo ~= 50 to 54 TSS, leaving you just 20 minutes to find the other 40-45 TSS to get just under 100. That's where you insert the magic trick.

I do 90 minutes with a long warmup and cooldown with 2 X 20 @ 90-95% and am usually right around 100 tss for the whole workout. If I cut the warmup and cooldown shorter it would probably end up being closer to 85 tss. I find with the longer workout that I can tell if I am going to "have it" that day or not whereas with a shorter warmup I can't tell until I'm about halfway through the first interval if my legs are good or not that day.

"Tempo" = somewhere between tempo & sweet spot. And "just under 100" isn't 99. With a decent warm-up/cool down it's in the range of 85 or 90 TSS. A solid workout that's repeatable daily.

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Lewis

Ahem, you do realize who you are giving advice to, right?

Ditto

Here was me thinking tempo was tempo and an hour was an hour. OK, so Level 3 is the new level 4 and an hour is now 75-80 minutes. Got it.

85 TSS requires an IF of 92% - for the entire hour.
90 TSS requires an IF of 95% - for the entire hour.

2 x 20 at 100% FTP with the rest at Level 2 (~ 70-75% FTP) will net you around 86-88 TSS.

~68 to 76 depending on tempo vs. sweet spot and how many DTMYLM's. Usually slightly over 1 hr. 1:03 or so.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

You're right. I went back and checked and my 70 minute "2 x 20" doesn't have nearly as much TSS as I thought it did. My bad.

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Lewis

I honestly don't' find anything special or magic about 2 x 20 @ SS or threshold. I do them often as well, but I get more training load from just sub-SS rides of 75-90minutes, mixed. I honestly wish I could say those 2 x 20s @ ss were so awesome for my performance, but they haven't been any better than anything of similar TSS at least for me. I will say they're good for at least maintaining performance, but even at my mediocre level, I tend to seek out more TSS for the 4x/wk I ride indoors. A 90 minute aerobic subSS ride has a lot more TSS than a 2 x 20 for me and at least I'm finding is a better training stimulus for me right now, but I do plan on changing those up to 90 min with a lot of SS and then a lot of Threshold intervals as I get closer to race season.

I'm a week into what I call "Kevins" 4 days a week, one other day I will do a 3x20@ SS just sub threshold which is pretty tough then one outdoor ride where I just ride for enjoyment, hammer some hills, noodle downtown whatever. Feel great and think I can hold right through winter.

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"Base training is bull shit" - desertdude

Kevin.
Have read this post dozens of times, bookmarked it, but this is the first time I have 1)a power meter 2)time 3) motivation.
Did the ride yesterday outside.
Ended up being 20m warm-up, 2*20 with 5ez between, 5ez after, ~20m to get home at regular pace.
I had guesstimated my FTP to be 300-310w.
First interval was 284 (goal was between 265 and 285) and second was 303w. The second was harder, but mainly mentally (harder more rolly course with more wind).
It felt tough but I was never dying or really redlining it. Avg hr was 10bpm higher on the second rep. I could have done 10 more minutes at that wattage, but it would've gotteb ugly.
Am I doing these right?
Tried to stay smooth and consistent throughout the second rep in spite of the rolling course
% wise these look to be too hard, but 85% pits be at around 260 which I can do all day.
Thoughts, Kevin et all?
Can provide a file if needed.

Whether you were going too hard depends on how that ride fits into your schedule. If you're setting up a plan where you are going to do this workout many timew a week, then yes, you were going too hard. Those intervals were 91% and 98% of FTP. That's fine for a one off, once a week type of FTP workout, but you won't be able to do that day after day after day. If you want something repeatable for like a M-F indoor program during the winter, I'd say you should stick to the 260 watt level.

The point (strictly in the context of 5 days of week of this workout) is to do something that is hard enough, but not too hard. That 85-88% range is something that you can do day after day, week after week and build yourself up without hating your bike. Much harder and I don't think it is as repeatable. Also, it will take a week or two to get into the used to this.

Hope that helps.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

But could I do it as a 2* a week workout with one easy ride between and a long ride on the weekend?

I'm certainly not a coach, but that seems reasonable.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava