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IMWIS VS IMLP
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Just wondering if anyone could compare: which is tougher bike, tougher run, best crowd support...just wondering as I did Placid and struggled last year even though I train 90% hills...appreciate any thoughts
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [100dupont] [ In reply to ]
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Totally different courses...IMLP has long, steady climbs; Wisco is much, much more technical, with shorter, steeper climbs, and a lot more turns. Up to you and your style of riding to determine which is harder. Run course totally different as well. IMLP has that long out and back section (River road, I think?) with little crowd support; Wisco run course runs through town with a ton of support almost every where.

Just my opinion, though, others may think differently.

Spot

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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [spot] [ In reply to ]
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thanks so much!!
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [spot] [ In reply to ]
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Agree, apples to oranges where WI is a more technical bike course. LP also has the long stretch from Keene to Jay which is much flatter than the rest of the course and offers a nice break. Agree also that majority of spectators are in town where they are more spread out in Madison. For me, WI was the harder bike course and LP the tougher run course, but both are great races and worth doing.



"You can never win or lose if you don't run the race." - Richard Butler

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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [100dupont] [ In reply to ]
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100dupont wrote:
Just wondering if anyone could compare: which is tougher bike, tougher run, best crowd support...just wondering as I did Placid and struggled last year even though I train 90% hills...appreciate any thoughts

exactly what spot and brian said. IMLP bike appears much harder on paper. elevation gain, long climbs, elevation profile. Not true. Wisconsin is very difficult for the reasons mentioned above. Unless you're a very technical rider, IMWI will eat you alive. Not trying to hate, just being honest.

No question about it, IMWI spectators are magnitudes better than, both on the bike and run.

Run-wise, other than Observatory hill in WI, the LP course is a much harder run course. The 3 mile descent from T2 can destroy the legs, the out and back on river road is beautiful and flat but spectator free, and then the 3 mile climb back up to the Lake is excruciating. Then repeat for another lap.

Both are very challenging courses. There have been numerous IMWI vs IMLP threads and I if I remember correctly, Mr. Consistent, "smokin" joe bonness is "slower" on the Madison course.

I just raced IMWI two weeks ago and was 10min faster than IMLP, but I was in significantly better shape this year.

My two cents.
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [Brian in MA] [ In reply to ]
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thanks, IMLP ate me alive on the final strecth into the last town, near the ski area, great till mile 90 than WHAM....I wasnt in great run shape, having done Kona before it, I felt still mentally absent

But thanks for the info, I train hills so hoping to be ok
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [MI TRI] [ In reply to ]
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thanks great feedback
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [100dupont] [ In reply to ]
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Have done both. Heard they just changed the IMOO swim to 1 lap compared to LP 2 lap swim. WI bike more flats but more technical than LP, WI also has a few out of the sadle climbs where LP was a slow grind back to the town. Both courses on the bike are tough.

Run LP is tougher for me more hills; IMHO WI is relatively a flatter run course.

Overall both courses are tough. Crowd support at WI bike is very very limited compared to LP since at LP you go back into town twice. But I think the crowd support more at WI for the run.

Which is a tougher bike? For me LP, tougher run for me LP
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [MI TRI] [ In reply to ]
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MI TRI wrote:
Unless you're a very technical rider, IMWI will eat you alive. Not trying to hate, just being honest.
Probably a newbie question, but what the heck does "technical" course and "technical" rider mean? I hear that said all the time but I don't really get what the implication is.

FWIW I live in Madison and ride the IMWI loop all the time. The best description I've ever heard is that it is "relentless".
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [davearm] [ In reply to ]
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By technical, folks mean that the course has a lot of tight turns and twists. A rider who can take those at speed or lose just a little speed will do much better at Wisco than someone who is a bit nervous on descents or corners. The best example of that is the very quick downhill with (IIRC) two 90 degree bends followed by a big sweeping turn and into a fast, flat section. If you can carry a decent amount of speed through the two bends, you can really haul on the flat section.

Spot

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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [spot] [ In reply to ]
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Makes sense, thanks. Being very strategic about conserving momentum is pretty important out there, that's for sure.

In particular it seems like on several of the rollers, the thing to do is to push a bit harder going downhill and at the base of the climb, so as to make it further up the other side as you downshift and lose speed.

Balancing that with the need to avoid "burning matches" is definitely a challenge.
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [Newyorkfan21] [ In reply to ]
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Newyorkfan21 wrote:

Overall both courses are tough. Crowd support at WI bike is very very limited compared to LP since at LP you go back into town twice. But I think the crowd support more at WI for the run.

Haven't done LP, but just did WI and the crowd support on the bike was absurdly good, not limited at all. Every big climb had people lining the street going nuts. And the Verona festival had people 5 deep on each side of the barricades for a good quarter mile.
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [100dupont] [ In reply to ]
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100dupont wrote:
Just wondering if anyone could compare: which is tougher bike, tougher run, best crowd support...just wondering as I did Placid and struggled last year even though I train 90% hills...appreciate any thoughts
Compare the times in your age group from each race. That should tell you which course is harder.

spot wrote:
By technical, folks mean that the course has a lot of tight turns and twists. A rider who can take those at speed or lose just a little speed will do much better at Wisco than someone who is a bit nervous on descents or corners. The best example of that is the very quick downhill with (IIRC) two 90 degree bends followed by a big sweeping turn and into a fast, flat section. If you can carry a decent amount of speed through the two bends, you can really haul on the flat section.

Spot

And just a lot of turns period. One time around just the loop at WI has over 30 turns. Add the out and back and you're at around 90 for the course. In comparison, the entire Louisville course, all 112 miles, has less than 20.
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [100dupont] [ In reply to ]
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have done both, swim easy lake placid, bike harder at wisconsin , run harder at lake placid.. for pure enjoyment wiscosin hands down. I like wisconsin racing this year, so much plan to volenteer for 2013
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [ninesixfour] [ In reply to ]
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Thx everyone funny that when I did kona it was in my mind pretty straight on I am good decend rider so should be good I find flat to be almost harder appreciate the advice
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [100dupont] [ In reply to ]
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100dupont wrote:
Just wondering if anyone could compare: which is tougher bike, tougher run, best crowd support...just wondering as I did Placid and struggled last year even though I train 90% hills...appreciate any thoughts

Done WI 2x and trained for, rode course, volunteered at IMLP but got sick night before race, but to echo what everyone else says...

Swim: IMWI tougher. It was 2 loops, which made for 7-90 degree left hand turns which meant 7x for the buoys to get very congested at the corners. Even now as a 1 loop course I would make IMWI harder as you stare at Monona Terrace, which is huge, for a large portion of the swim and it never seems to move. Plus there are the snakes and murky water. IMLP has clearer water, a 'lane line' in the cable to follow and seemed like a much nicer swim.

Transition: IMWI has the infamous helix to run up 3 flights. Lined with screaming people. My HR spiked both years I did that race at that point due the crowds, adrenaline etc... IMWI change room/bag room is inside, carpeted, and the transition is on cement so no chance of muddy conditions/grass like you can have at IMLP.

Bike: IMWI is tougher, IMO... Plus, if I recall, it actually has about 200 feet or less more climbing than IMLP. (~6,350 to 6,150 or something in that range). The IMLP bike course is much more scenic for most of the ride, and I can't speak to crowd support on it as I've never raced it but coming through town for the second loop looked like a blast. IMWI is a never ending series of small hills, turns, more hills etc... no major or long climbs, they just never seem to start. IMWI has 3 distinct portions where the crowds are AWESOME. In Verona, where they bus people out, the main street is lined with barriers/supporters and the streets were covered in chalk with messages,drawings etc... Then there are the two steep hills that get lined with crowds and its like the Tour de France with people screaming at you and parting at the last second to get out of your way.

Run: IMLP is a tougher run with the hills back into town off river road, IMO. IMWI has a couple small hills (though they seemed huge at the time) and running on/around the field in the stadium is highly overrated and I found actually tough, almost like running on sand as the turf was too squishy. Crowd support wise though IMWI run is great. Going up and down State street 2x at different parts of the street where its lined with bars, restaurants etc... is great as the crowds are huge and its not that far from the start/finish for you to go see if you are spectating. There are very few/little sections along the IMWI run where there are not some sort of people gathering/watching you. IMLP seemed like all the crowds were centered at town and once you got out, especially on River Road, there was not much there.


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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [baxnelly] [ In reply to ]
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You have got to be kidding me on the snake part
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [100dupont] [ In reply to ]
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Snakes are no joke. Just did IMWI and as I was waiting to start, one of those nasty suckers tried to climb onto my shoulders. I had a bad swim and think it was because my HR spiked because of the snake.
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [100dupont] [ In reply to ]
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100dupont wrote:
You have got to be kidding me on the snake part

Nope. Lake manona is full of them. It's a well documented fact. Do a forum search and you will see what I mean...


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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [tpero] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah IMOO bike course has spectators on those steep hills; I guess for the most part IM bike courses don't have much spectators in general except for the drinking groups lol

Loved the bag piper at IMLP bike...so cool
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [100dupont] [ In reply to ]
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Have no fear, they are. It's some kind of long-running forum joke that I don't understand. I live in Madison.

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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [100dupont] [ In reply to ]
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I have to disagree with a lot of the other posters.

I did IMLP 3 times and IMMOO once where I finished 27th overall. My best IMLP finish was 51st overall. The LP bike course is MUCH tougher. Nearly twice the elevation gain and the last 12 miles are all uphill and (usually) into the wind making it tough to run well off the bike.

IMMOO bike is rolling hills. If you spin up going down you can get half way up the next hill just on momentum. Also I didn't find it all that technical as others have stated. It's just riding on roads with some corners, no big deal at all. The last 15-20 miles at MOO are flat so you can rest your legs a little prior to the run.

Swims and runs are about even by my estimation. Easy lake swims. Snakes? Seriously? A complete non-issue. There are frickin sharks out there on ocean swims but I never saw one.

Overall due to the significantly more challenging bike course IMLP is the tougher race. IMMOO is not an easy course but Placid is tougher without a doubt.
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [slick] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks so much very impressive that u finished 27th so I was ready to do IMLP but then it falls on the Jewish holiday and this I can't go I imagine allot of athletes may run into this in 2013 of course if God is a triathlete I may get a pass!
Thanks again to all for these great responses
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [davearm] [ In reply to ]
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IMWI can have some very technical corners.

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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [slick] [ In reply to ]
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slick wrote:
I have to disagree with a lot of the other posters.

I did IMLP 3 times and IMMOO once where I finished 27th overall. My best IMLP finish was 51st overall. The LP bike course is MUCH tougher. Nearly twice the elevation gain and the last 12 miles are all uphill and (usually) into the wind making it tough to run well off the bike.

IMMOO bike is rolling hills. If you spin up going down you can get half way up the next hill just on momentum. Also I didn't find it all that technical as others have stated. It's just riding on roads with some corners, no big deal at all. The last 15-20 miles at MOO are flat so you can rest your legs a little prior to the run.

Swims and runs are about even by my estimation. Easy lake swims. Snakes? Seriously? A complete non-issue. There are frickin sharks out there on ocean swims but I never saw one.

Overall due to the significantly more challenging bike course IMLP is the tougher race. IMMOO is not an easy course but Placid is tougher without a doubt.

There is no way IMLP has twice the elevation gain. I've ridden both, both with the same garmin, and if I recall it's something like 6,350 for IMOO and 6,150 for IMLP. I'm going by memory so my numbers may be a touch off but it was close to identical, with IMOO being about 200' more.


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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [baxnelly] [ In reply to ]
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Hmmmm. Really?

I thought LP was about 7500 and IMMOO was under 5000, which isn't double but significantly more.

I'll admit that my numbers may not be completely accurate. They have changed the IMLP course since I last did it, taking out a hill on the old out and back. I don't know if they changed the IMMOO course since I did it in 2004.

Even if they were the same I think LP is tougher due to the last bike section which is always a grind and kills the legs right before the run.

I didn't find the IMMOO bike course all that tough.

The IMMOO run is fun (if it is possible to have fun on an IM run). There are a lot more people throughout the course which helps keep the pace up.
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [100dupont] [ In reply to ]
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4 times IMWI, 2 times IMLP. IMLP has best swim, although the start is a bit tight. Water is clear and fresh. IMWI water can have algae, and always gives me sinus problems although swimming down the length of the convention center is pretty awesome (and spectator friendly). Both bike courses are pretty much big ring all the way, with IMWI having shorter and steeper hills, which we call rollers here in KS. IMLP has much less grade but the climbs are longer. As far as the run, IMWI has State Street which is a party unto itself, as well as folks and college students all along the run. IMLP has a lot of spectators from the run start to River Road (and back), but River Road can be very lonely if you're out there 13 hours. They are both great experiences, great courses, and great venues. IMLP gets the nod on scenery. My PR is at IMLP.

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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [Kscycler] [ In reply to ]
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How quickly does imlp sellout? Is it minutes, hours or days?
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Re: IMWIS VS IMLP [avikoren1] [ In reply to ]
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IMLP is sold out now, and it took a lot longer this year to sell out. I think it took a day, but I suspect that is because of the additions of IMNYC (at the time) and Mont Tremblant. Both races draw from the same pool of usual IMLP competitors. Now that IMNYC is no longer, I would expect that IMLP will sell out much faster next year. In prior years IMLP sold in a matter of hours.
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