IT IS FUCKING CRAZY!!!!!!!


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When other WTC events sell out within hours (or faster), an economist would argue very logically that the race fee is not high enough.

$1200 is a lot, but so is flying in with a bike + hotel + any family tagalongs, which usually exceeds the cost of a big out of town race fee, even at $1200.

Wanna guess how much the average cost people spend for Kona? It's obviously a lot higher than $1200.

And yes, you CAN burn tons of cash in triathlon, and it's definitely not one of the cheaper sports, but you also don't have to be in that category. I've never spent more than $350 for total race and travel fees, as I've driven to all my races (I'm lucky to live in CA where there are a lot of races and have never needed to fly or overnight.)

I myself would have no problems paying $1200 for my "A" race IM distance event. At the same time, if I have a local non-IM branded race that I can do for a fraction of that, I'll likely do that instead, as I'm not even remotely wedded to the IM brand. As long as there's not a monopoly on racing, you can always choose another event. If people want to pay for the privilege of racing in the Big Apple, sure, go for it.

It depends on a host of issues, but I'd be willing to pay extra for a race with:

1. Clean air;
2. Clean water;
3. Safe roads;
4. Excellent support staff and logistics;
5. A place my loved ones would enjoy.

Some races already do a great job in these areas. Cozumel, IM Switzerland, Muskoka and probably Mont-Tremblant. Lake Placid is pretty good too. But, putting a race on in Louisville is not ideal...imho.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

the 70.3 here in western australia (busselton) is around $550 beans, and i think thats outrageous. It fills within minutes though. $1200, forget it. Im sure it will fill, but with only those with a higher disposable income or those who have saved up for it specifically.

And i agree, the price of wheels shits me to tears!

This tells me they may be close to hitting the "right" price: that which a willing buyer will pay a willing seller with both parties in possession of all relevant information and neither side being compelled to act.

In professional services like mine, if 20% of the public does not laugh at my price and end the conversation right there, I am probably not charging enough.

I want the client who will place a high value on my services, and then agree to pay it over and again because the value I deliver is still in excess of the cost to him. There are many other providers he may substitute for me, and he is free to do so. He has no duty to buy my services at my price, nor do I have any obligation to sell to him at his price.

Don't worry folks, the market will sort this out soon enough. It has for the last several centuries.

to my mind, $1,200 entry fee is ludicrious. but if it sells out, then why shouldn't the organisers charge it?

by way of comparison, the 70.3 in my area is �215 and most Olympic distance races are around �50. No way I would ever pay the equivalent of �1,000 for a race.

Personally I think it is insane. Maybe I'm a cheapskate, but I won't spend more than ~$100 on an event.

But if they sell out, the price they charged was correct.

And then as a result, you can expect the price of other races to increase.

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I'm competing against my current fitness level, and planning to kick my a**!

Yes, and I will gladly take some of it. Who has an extra $5000 that they don't need?

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I agree.

I am willing to occasionally pay 600-700 (maybe every other year) for an "Ironman" race for someplace like IMLP, but as I keep finding/hearing of great races at much less cost (Beach to Battle, Great Floridian, Rev 3, Bone Island, Roth, Tinman etc...) these become much, much more attractive. I like volunteering to help our fellow athletes, but I can't help but feel a bit take advantage of to volunteer for the WTC (for profit), so I can wait in a line for 3 hours, give them a (mainly nonrefundable) several hundred dollar pre payment for a race a year away. Or I can see how a year unfolds, pay a fraction of the cost for another great race usually with refunds and/or transfers. $1200- wtf?, one could race all year at non WTC 70.3, 140.6 races or a couple of years for this and as long as you do not need 2500 other athletes (which isn't always a good thing) or to qualify for Kona you can/ will have every bit as much fun. Most of the expensive tri gear have value replacements- compression socks available in your local drug store for $10-20 (not as sexy, but will work just as well), wheel covers for $90, sequential compression devices $400-600 or pay 1000-5000 for the "fancy" sports version, etc.... Hey everyone gets to choose how they spend there money, but I feel the same as you that there is a real bubble in tri pricing, but maybe with more and more new and/or wealthy triathletes the market will stay strong- we will see. I know I will watch where and when I spend my money and look to slowtwitch to keep informed on the "value" alternatives out there. Have a good one.

Scott

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Hahaha...$550 for a half!!!Holy shit the mining boom must have hit the local tri scene......Seriously that is just stupid as Ironman Cairns is $750'ish...All up[ I honestly think it would be cheaper for me to fly from the Gold Coast to Phuket for the Laguna Phuket race with everything included than to fly to Busso for the 70.3..

Makes me wish I had done the Iron distance that they had in Collie in the early '90's

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$10,000 is not too much IF people are willing to pay and the race maximizes its potential revenue.
Unlike housing, I don't think people are taking mortgages to buy IM race entries. The people paying for this luxury can afford it.
We are seeing viable competitors to the IM brand (i.e. Rev3).
Let the market find its own pricepoint before trying to plan the economy like some Uncle Joe.

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Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's

Everything is relative.

How much does the NYC Mary cost, compared to Wineglass or Mohawk-Hudson?
A - a LOT more. Why? It's in NYC.
Heck, it's a lot more expensive than Philly. Which is another big city event on the east coast.

IF I were interested, and IF I wanted to do IMNYC, the price tag would not have deterred me. It'd still be cheaper than LP, all-in.

How much does it cost to climb Mt Everest?
Now *that* is insane.
(but lemmings gladly line up to pay it)

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float , hammer , and jog

i know and it sells in like 4 minutes. They have huge waiting lists for spots. They prioritise spots for triwa members.
70.3 mandurah was born this year, to be raced in October. Entry is $400 odd. Its crazy.

I would never pay $1200 for an IM. That should be the cost of l a 3 race pass or something
You are right, it's unbelievably stupid.

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____________________________________________________
I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it--

$7000 is just TOO MUCH for a bike. Can we finally admit this?

..................... but if people buy them, it's a fair price

my wife would divorce me if i spent 7k on a bike

What's the over/under on the chances of the race returning for a second year?

Until people stop signing up, they're not charging enough.

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-Andrew

$266 for NYC Marathon with all fees and qualification standards

Exactly, and you get to see all of the boroughs. From what I have been hearing...IMNJ's route was nothing to write home about.

my wife would be thrilled if I spent 7k on a bike.

Wineglass started at $70, max is $100.
Philly is $85-$125.

My point stands. You wanna do anything in NYC?
Bring your wallet.

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float , hammer , and jog

I bought my wife a $7k+ bike first...made it difficult for her to complain when I bought mine!

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-Andrew

I would never be able to pay $1200 for a race, (unless the powerball numbers line up for me).

My wife said that to me ounce.....man that was a great bike!

How about we all just decide for ourselves what is too much and not worry about what other people pay to race. There is no magic "too much" number. If it's worth $1200 to someone else, no sweat off my nose.

Thom

There is no way I'll pay $1,200 for an IM event. $625 - $675 is pushing it. Rev3 and all the other races are looking much more attractive

X2. For some people $1200 is an acceptable price point. Economics for everyone is different depending how much disposable income you have and how you choose to spend it.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

and I think we hit that price ceiling. If I had to guess, IMNY saw the numbers coming in for 2013 and they weren't pretty. I'm sure there is some equation that they use where they can judge from the initial rush in a few hours, what the final tally will be.

It's either that.

OR

NY and NJ told them they lost their permits for another race.

When was the last time WTC gave a flying f#%$ about athletes opinions? They aren't concerned about charging $1200 to race...I think they saw what a joke the swim turned out to be and are trying to cover it up with other excuses.

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RunFAR Racing Services
http://www.Run-far.com
Team Cambridge
Hilltop Bicycle Repair

But can you blame them for continuing to up the price until they find that price point where demand drops and they can't fill the race? They're in business to make money, so I applaud them for doing exactly what they should.

It's not their responsibility to make racing their races affordable for random people.

Plus, shouldn't Gods and Goddesses be able to afford $1200?

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-Andrew

yes, $1,200 is a lot. actually, 1,260 :).

here's my take. the costs to do this compare to another event would have been cheaper and it's in my hometown.

Reg Fee - 1,260

Compare to Rev 3 - Cedar Point Full

Reg Fee - 525
Hotel - 400 - let's assume $100 a night for 4 nights
Airfare - 350 - cheapest flight on expedia currently
Bike Transport - 300

Total costs - 1,575

Arizona/Florida would costs more because the reg fee is higher and the airfare as well. hotel costs might be higher.

LP - i would have to pay for car rental fees which would come close to the airfare/transport costs.

No, I dont think it is that high considering where it is taking place. Everything in that area is considerably more expensive that most areas of the world.

I would pay $1200 to race Kona, just one time. Where do I sign up?

I'm concerned that this price increase trend will continue in places like Lake Placid and Mont Tremblant. Of course, everyone has different financial considerations. That's fair. But do they really want this event to only be associated with those of great means. Or is this an event that truly "anyone can do" with enough training and commitment?

For me, when I see a number like $625 at Placid, I breathe deeply and remember its essentially a holiday. It is the culmination of a lot of hard training. I pay up for the week accommodation and share a place with some friends and enjoy the week off from work. If the price was to increase beyond its current position I just couldn't justify it.


I'm NOT a one and done athlete. I want to do these things for a long time. For me, its now a lifestyle. I wake up early, I train, I S/B/R and I love the year building up to my race. My feeling is that if WTC were to persist with something like $1200 for a race it would encourage a lot of first timers who will never do this thing again.

We spent a lot of money when my wife did ITU long course in Australia and Kona, but we also made a holiday of it which included scuba diving, etc. No way in hell would we pay $1200 to swim in the Hudson. NYC just isn't exotic enough to cough up that kind of coin.

but it's not a lot for sports equipment, esp when the top end bikes are twice that. shiv, trinity, tm01....all are in the $12k-14k range.

other sports: rowing shells are $12k for a single ($45k for an eight). a set of oars is $750/pr. club membership/fees $500/yr

golf? a set of clubs can easily be $5000. club membership and greens fees can be upwards of $100k/yr (in northern NJ/NYC area).

but for $1200....that's the cost of doing a few races....and, given that other mdot branded races are a fraction of this entry fee....just plain ridiculous.

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no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

I can understand it from some perspective... because travel and racing can be expensive. I tend to stay more local where I can drive, and even there, loding and food can be upwards of double or more the entry fee. Halfs are obviously a lot less because you can get away with a lot less days in my opinion.

But by the same degree, if your choice of venue is purely based upon saving money, that is really not much of a choice. So if the argument is IMMT or IMLP will cost me $2000, and IMNYC will cost me on $1200, the biggest question to me is which would you rather do? Which is more relaxing or enjoyable pre-post? Which is more enjoyable actually racing?

Frankly I think a true IMNYC would be run in the city, and something out of the Warriors, where you have bottles tossed at you on the swim, you are hounded down on the bike, or come to T1 and find your bike up on cinderblocks and the wheels gone, and the run would be through Central Park being chased by the Rogues, the Riffs, Turnbull ACs, the Baseball Furies, and the Lizzies.

Was the course planned? Or was it forced? Is the course there because it would make a great spot and ideal race, or is the race there because there is a demographic and void and more to just sell entries.

I would rather pay a little more and do a race I want to do, than a race that is just "cheaper" If money was a real factor, I think renting a house or condo in Tremblant or LP with a group of 3 or 4 other athletes ultimately brings the cost cheaper, and makes the experience more rewarding. That is just me. Have no desire to even remotely do what they are throwing together in NYC.

I don't know where you live (since your profile is incomplete) but I'm guessing the USA because Roth is the only international race in your list. Therefore, I ask:

If you think $1200 is too much for a race, how much do you think it is going to cost you to travel to Germany to do Challenge Roth?

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Yup this was bound to happen and now WTC knows they are teetering on the equilibrium. They still offer a highly desirable product. This story about logistics....meh I don't work for them so can't say, but cannot imagine they didn't have a clear exit story when they decided to implement this rate hike. WTC is not dumb and they know to never ask a question you don't already know the answer to. If the answer was 'no' on 1,200 then they had a clear answer to get out and regroup. If IMNY does open up again it will certainly not be 1,200.

Man some of the responses surprise me because people are equating the place that the race is being held to the value for money of the race itself..I'll happily spend $600 to go to a race that costs me $2000 to get to if the race itself is value for money.Where the race is being held should not affect the price of the actual race and if it does and the RD's are passing on the cost of that venue to me then I won't go.

So to compare races,I would never pay $1,200 to race the same distance event that I can pay way less for in a really nice venue,like Penticton or Cairns or even Brasil..The rest of the costs do not figure into my equation...Is New York worth visiting,sure but is it worth my spending an extra $1,200 for a race that hasn't been that well recieved by those who did it,I would say no.I would look to IMMT way before I would consider IMNY....Actually to tell the truth, in the same way I refuse to pay the stupidly inflated prices for snacks at the theatre or food at Airports,I will never pay $1,200 for a race,"just because it is in New York"....Now the Sri Chimnoy Ultra run that they have there is a different story.

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Agreed... Maybe it will be $1500

They will justify it by saying they have:

-- Improved the logistics
-- Improved ferry service for family and friends
-- More spectator spots

All of this will cost more to pull off, this is New York after all, and people can be assured that this is an even better race

Oh, almost forgot, they will throw in a set of TYR Goggles as well.

this is not true. the NYCM costs a lot more than most every other marathon because NYRR knows that there is almost inelastic demand of the race and it can get away with charging well over $200. it's not like the cost of putting on a marathon in NYC has massively increased over the past 5 years. the race still sells out right away at this price point so you can expect further increases in the future (although NYRR has received a lot of pushback this year).

WTC was treating IMNJ the same way and thought that there was almost inelastic demand so a 33% price hike wouldn't matter. it found out that it does matter when the product is inferior. i'm really curious as to how few people actually signed up. it had to have been a tiny number because WTC never would have suspended the race had it come close to filling up. it just would have put on the same flawed race next year and made an even bigger profit.

The NYC Marathon HAS increased in cost considerably in the last 5 years.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/03/sports/new-york-city-marathon-raises-entry-fee.html

You are somewhat out of your mind if you are willing to pay $1200 for an Ironman race.
________

You obviously can only make a decision for yourself ..... but a large number of others obviously didn't agree with you.
I personally wouldn't pay anything to swim in a polluted east coast river or spend time in New Jersey/NY .... but I wouldn't be concerned about $1200 entry to a quality event like IMC or maybe Tahoe if it indeed turns out to be good in 2013. Most of my expense is travel/ meals/ hotels/ family/time off work (I own my own business) .... so the entry fee be it 600 or 1200 really is only a minor part of the total cost .... and that obviously also is before I consider the cost of my equipment.
Everyone makes choices in where they spend money and for what .... no $1200 isn't a big deal overall for a lot of triathletes ....no one MAKES you do anything ;-)

Dave

I live in Vermont, and we have a family place just outside NY city, but the race cost/logistics/family spectating issues of IMNYC make it unappealing for me currently. I would love see a really cool/fun course around NYC that would be athlete/spectator friendly , but I also understand that may be too expensive and logistically complicated to provide in that urban environment. I was just giving examples of other good race options. Roth would surely be expensive (plane tickets for my family of 5- crap!), but it would also be a great trip to Europe rolled into it. I know I pay a premium to stay in Lake Placid, but for me the travel is cheap, the course is beautiful and spectator friendly, and the area fun for my family (wife and 3 little kids)- but again I know others may prefer the urban setting. I was simplifying (dangerous) -there are many other factors (travel, lodging etc...) that go into a race and obviously everyone has there own value systems. But a race entry fee of 1200 (plus processing, with next to no refund should something come up over the year) is crazy IMHO. Now I do agree if you live in NY/NJ and travel/lodging logistics get simplified then it could certainly be more appealing- as any race close to home would make for easy (and cheaper) travel/lodging options. My sister and her family live in Wilmington, NC so for me B2B (long with its cost, late registration availability, good reviews and timing in the year) gets "good scores" on the "that one would be fun to do" list. I should make up a scoring system to help me organize my want to do races! Have a good one.

Scott

Scott,

I agree about B2B. Set Up Events is a great company. I do at least 5 of their events every year and I want to do B2B one day. If you haven't already figured it out, I'm from NC and B2B would be easy logistically and inexpensive for me to do. There are about 250 spots still open for this year. Depending on how IM Louisville goes in 12 days, I may just do it this year!

Take Care,
Alan

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

The owners know their demographics, IM is a bucket list item for a lot of people and every year the average age gets older and older (when I started 14 years ago the largest age group was 25-29, its now 40-44 . Older people have more money and they need to tick off the bucket list, the owners of these races want to make maximum profit before predicted decline of demand starts in a few years.

If you ever need an out = double bonus.
(yes pink implied)

Not only is it too much but absurd. With money to spend on whatever I want, I try to put things into perspective. Less than $1200 will take me back to Cozumel with air and local transportation. $1200 is what I pay for property taxes and insurance on one of my properties. $1200 is what I pay to fully insure three vehicles. $1200 is what I spend in groceries for 4 months and the list goes on. No way I would spend $1200 on ONE RACE in New York or anywhere. Heck, in spite of the hit and run incident in Abu Dhabi a few months, I am definitely considering that race because it is only $200 and the home of Ferrari World.

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_____________________________________
DISH is how we do it.

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May the larvae of a thousand flies infest your bike shorts for suggesting such a thing...;-)


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Ha-ha! Are you referring to the race or Ferrari World?

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_____________________________________
DISH is how we do it.

I call BS on the Cozumel part. I see that you are from California. Entry alone is $600US. So that leaves $600US for air (including bike), hotel, food, local travel, etc. I say no way you could do IMCoz for $1200US.

Race entry fee is only one piece of the entire cost.

ETA: Unless you have friends/family in Cozumel, which makes this an apples/oranges comparison.

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

--

The fact that you are a Farrari fan is the only reason a curse was not put on your whole family..

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This is the very reason I see myself doing many local Olympics and Texasman every year. I may eventually do 1 WTC Ironman.

I am already planning to do Leadman next year though. It just seems better and we want to vacay in Portland.

I also will never get an m dot tat. I may get triathlon related ink, but not that.

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You will remain the same person, before, during and after the race. So the result, no matter how important, will not define you. The journey is what matters. ~ Chrissie W.

As I posted a few days ago, you are a trip. Ferrari fan I am not but shit, that roller coaster is screaming my name.

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_____________________________________
DISH is how we do it.

That's actually the first interesting thing I've read in all the IMNYC bitching... I think an annual pass would be fantastic. Kind of like the pro membership but a limit on races. $1200 for 3 races of your choosing and you're guaranteed spots into sold out races. I'd gladly pay that to get into 2 fulls and a half that sell out quickly or before I'd really like to start planning my season (IMFL, IMAZ, Vineman 70.3, Oside).

yeah but the thing is demand remains so high they'll never do it
but I agree with you (and myself i guess)

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____________________________________________________
I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it--

I lived in San Francisco for 15 years, and while living there I raced Escape from Alcatraz 10 times. It started out at $150 and slowly crept up to $295, which seemed absurd. For the same reasons you said here, $295 it turns out was an acceptable entry fee (though of course, is insanely high!) since I rolled out of bed and rode to the race start - no airfare, no hotel, etc. I figured, you only go through life once, and heck, I may not even live in San Francisco forever, so do my famous hometown race while I'm here. With such a nice and iconic IM event right in your backyard, I get your argument to justify this exorbitant entry fee.

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____________________________________________________
Dream of racing again some day...

$7k...how bout $10K! The P5 loaded w/ Di2 and race wheels is hitting that and they can't get them delivered fast enough!

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-Stephen in Arkansas

Does anyone besides a pro even have a P5 yet?

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

My buddy got his last week. First frames were delivered last week (maybe the week before that). A lot of them are on hold because they're going to offer a 10 speed instead of 9 speed with Di2 next year...or something like that to do with Di2.

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-Stephen in Arkansas

Good luck and have fun in Louisville.

$295??

EfA was $400 this year. and it was HUGE to be able to stay with fam in oakland, and not have to fight for overpriced hotel space.

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no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

The ironic thing about all this is, I gave-up golf which I didn�t suck at (4 handicap), when I moved to OC because it was so expensive and time consuming. I got into cycling because it was �free�, after a couple Crit races I knew that kind of racing wasn�t for me and did my first Sprint last August. Honestly, I didn�t think I would like it. Crossed the finish line and immediately wanted to do it again; I was hooked. I�m not sure what the average cost of events in other parts of the country but here in SoCal the Sprint: $150, Olympic: $200 and Orangeman Half: $300. It all adds up very quickly, especially when you want to do 6 a year. That doesn't include everything else that goes along with it, gear, maintenance, nutrition, etc.....$$$$$$$$$

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"Though she be but little, she is fierce" ~Shakespeare | Powered by HD Coaching | 2014 Wattie Ink Triathlon Team | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

I have watched as Ironman has slowly adding races over the year, always seeming after a demand for the race already existed. So once they launched most filled up right away. It seems they made a major market analysis mistake. The market for $1200 triathlons is very small.

However, people will pay extra for certain venues. They could charge a zillion dollars for Kona and I suspect it would still fill up. I think you can add a premium for a location like NYC but not much. Who goes a week ahead of time to train in NYC? I paid more for a swim in NYC than I would expect to pay elsewhere, but I also would never do it again. Visuals were good, but I had my face in the water much more than I had it out. On top of that the Harlem River just tasted putrid.


$75 for goggles? Time for a reality check. I swim in TYR Racetech which I can get for $8. They have always served me well. Most people swim in a pack so the only one that needs to see is the one at the front. Give them a pair of $25 goggles and call it good.

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* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * *
http://www.bobswims.com/

"If you didn't swallow water in your last open water race, you weren't racing"

Seriously.

$1200 is like, more than my entire paycheque. For $1200 I could spend a couple months as a hobo cycling from Vancouver to Mexico.

I guess it's all demographic-relevant and location-specific, as everyone has mentioned. But I still think it's insane. Race registrations have racked up a couple hefty VISA bills for me this summer, what with two 70.3 races and a few local olys. And just when I think I'm in the clear, I remember the (half) marathons I have in mind, and the fact that 2013 registrations are opening up soon!

Forget race fees - forgoing triathlon would probably save me thousands in the cost of food alone!

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. . . . . . . . .
-julie

I do not think $1200 may be too much. Just depends on what people feel they get for their money. I see folks spending, IMO, way too much money on some cars, does that make it wrong?
If a business can put out a product for the higher end folks and sell it out, that is great.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

No.

You guys really don't understand supply and demand, do you.

I'm racing Thursday night.

It costs $20.

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Eli Curt

I'm Professionally Amateur. Are you? Become an ambassador today!
Chimps in Training!

I think it is too much for this particular race given the product you get and the alternatives available in the market. While I haven't done this race, the reviews make me think it was nothing special, so not worth the $1200. In addition, I don't know if WTC is realizing that their competitors are making strides and that there are pretty good alternatives to M-Dot out there. Last year I did B2B full. The race entry cost less than $400 and I don't think there was a difference in the organization of B2B as compared to any of the 7 MDots I've done. I would do B2B again in a heart beat, especially if the alternative is paying $700+ for a WTC event (since I live in the middle of nowhere I have to travel to any IM I do and the price difference between flying to Wilmington and NYC is minimal).

There is starting to be more supply in the market and less product differentiation in the market, which will have a downward pressure on prices.

I think that is starting to happen to the 70.3s series. There are so many great non-WTC half iron distance events in the US (with many of them being cheaper than WTC 70.3s), I have no clue why anyone would pay a premium to race the WTC event.

I enjoy passing people who overspend on triathlon gear.

Ironman is not about going fast but proving you got an entire day to waste, since you are paid well to take so much time off.

And you like to eat during the entire day with free supplied food.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

But why would you WANT to??????

There are a lot of things we can do for under $1200 - but how many of them would we want to do.

That's the crux of it right there - the price point they are probing for is simply the premium on the M-dot brand name, not the price for the underlying commodity. Clearly an event with an outstanding, safe, scenic and exciting course, lots of amenities and unreal schwag can be put on for far less than $1200 a person. A reputation for excellent event execution also has value, and they've banked some of that, but that value component is at least in theory attainable by all, it's not explicitly protected.

I don't begrudge WTC their tenacious exploitation of the value of the trademark for as long as they can, but I think jinci is right, the trend toward wider acceptance of generics is inevitable, hopefully at a level that will allow other race organizers to reach the critical mass necessary to pull off such high quality events. For a savings of $600 or more, more people are surely going to be willing to take the risk of having to explain to an interrogator that their triumph was indeed in a legitimate "Iron Distance" event even though the ubiquitous logo is missing from the tshirt.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark

Saw one in my local bike shop (getting a tune up) that has been well used.

Supply and demand don't matter when I'm the one being "exploited"

The market will determine what is too high.......sadly enough.

You can't rape the willing.

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float , hammer , and jog

If I could I would

I think WTC is being irresponsible to its investors. To properly price their product they should set an expected sell out time. Then measure how quickly a race sells out and price accordingly. Continue raising or lowering pricing until expected sell out is achieved.

For everyone that doesn't like it, they can find other products.

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"your horse is too high" - tigerchik

Saw a guy riding a P5 in a local sprint race. Maybe because he saved a few $1200 entry fees by entering shorter races?

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-julie

How are you being exploited?

I'd really like to buy a Porsche; is it exploitation that the price is so high?

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-Andrew

This.

I started racing mtn bikes tuesday nights. It's hella fun and $25 per week. Generally place high enough to take home a pint glass too. Sometimes even a $20 or $30 gift card. Way more fun, way less stress.

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MyGearGarage - Track all your gear!

(S)he said go to Cozumel. He didn't say anything about racing in Cozumel.

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MyGearGarage - Track all your gear!

Other than assuming "travelmama" is a she, you are absolutely correct. I read the post incorrectly. Sorry, Travelmama!!!!!!!!!!

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

"exploited" is this faux outrage that is generally thrown around when someone is at the sore end of an economics lesson. Same thing can be said for people getting butt hurt about the 5 day min stay at IMLP yet continuing to go year after year.

For someone who has "money to spend on whatever I want", you must weigh 60 pounds, live in a shoebox, and drive three Yugo's......

Exactly. But don't let logic get in the way of people's misguided anger.

Somebody mentioned that an economist could argue that the price is not high enough if events sold out. As an economist, I'd disagree with this a little bit. Standard supply/demand suggest increasing the price, but that's assuming a standardized product. Also, the standard rule of Supply/Demand is economics 101, which isn't really practical in the real world given the required assumptions. Not all IM events are the same. Very close, but venue being the main variable. Somebody else mentioned that they wouldn't pay that money to swim in the Hudson or deal with the logistics.

WTC has capacity to increase prices, but to put the prices at equilibrium would be a mistake and they know it. All businesses know it. First, there is no fixed equilibrium like there is in the classroom, it's a moving target. Second, WTC needs to maintain this high demand, thus sell out their events. This generates the capacity to expand into new markets as well as discretionary sales in merchandise, etc. It also gives them negotiation power when dealing with cities, granted NY had no flexibility. However, during an interview with the RD of IMNY, he mentioned one city repaved it's roads for in time for IM. Finally, selling out adds to the 'mystic' of participating in an IM event. (mystic may not be the right word).

I don't mean to criticize the person who posted that statement, I just wanted to clarify. When I teach into Micro/Macro, it's easier when discussing supply/demand. When I teach advance micro/macro, it can get messy really really quick.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

Call BS all you want but first read my post then show where I made mention of accommodations. I know what I have paid and will pay and it is still less than $1200.

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DISH is how we do it.

Oh damn, you have got me on the floor laughing. I am much heavier with a house a bit larger than a shoebox. To own three Yugos is wishful thinking.

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DISH is how we do it.

Ultra-tri-guy wrote:

Man some of the responses surprise me because people are equating the place that the race is being held to the value for money of the race itself..I'll happily spend $600 to go to a race that costs me $2000 to get to if the race itself is value for money.Where the race is being held should not affect the price of the actual race and if it does and the RD's are passing on the cost of that venue to me then I won't go.

First of all, I really don't understand why so many of you care so much about this. Neither you nor Cerveloapple are planning to race WTC or Iron-distance so cost is irrelevant to both of you. Just another thread for the two of you to bitch.

And did you not read the title of this thread? The OP is bitching that $1200 is too much for a race, which you agreed to because you hate WTC and IMNY, but then contradicted yourself in the part I just quoted. You don't value the race, others do. I don't value Apple products, other people happily overpay for the same crap.

All you are really saying is that YOU don't think NY is enough of a destination, which is fine, don't go race in NY, with WTC, for an Iron-distance.

There is a new Irondistance in my home down that costs like $100, but I have no desire to spend $1200 to fly out there and race a place I already know with about 24 other participants. I plan to do Ironman Lanzarote next which is *only* 400 euros. Except that the flight will cost me $1200. Oddly enough, the fight to NYC is less than $400 so total race cost is LESS. You mentioned Brazil which is also on my list, costs less than IMNY but will cost a fortune to get to.

Let people decide for themselves what they think a race is worth. Obviously $1200 is NOT too much since lots of people spend way more than that already.

Someone mentioned the NY marathon that now costs over $200, but they forgot to include the three times you have to pay to enter the lottery.

And let's not forget that nearly all Ironman events have charity slots that cost twice the ticket price, and plenty of people pay. $1200 is obviously not too much for a race. Some people will pay, others won't, who the fuck cares?

To all those bitching about the $1200 price tag, can you please explain what part of the following you are not understanding?

1) It costs a ton to put on the race in NYC
2) If they don't jack up the registration, there will be no race
3) No one is forcing you to enter. If you think it's too expensive, there are plenty of other races for you to do.

What exactly is the problem again?

are you aware of the psychological/marketing term called "anchoring"?

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

The word is "Mystique".
:-)

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http://www.bobswims.com/

"If you didn't swallow water in your last open water race, you weren't racing"

I am now.

Doesn't mean their bitching is rational or makes any sense. ;)

I always said $1000 was my cutoff.

The only exception is the one Ironman in my hometown.

Given I don't pay for flights, car hire or a condo, I can justify more for entry.

But if I am traveling, $1k is my cutoff.

BTW Kona last year only cost me about $600.

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I agree. Gee I agree with you a lot. You must be a great guy.

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well, if WTC can float IMNYC at $1200, even at a loss, "anchoring" makes people think $800 for some backwater IM is a bargain, even if it's not.

I think that we're in a period of transition, economically speaking with regard to IM pricing. Between $1200 IMs and the redistribution of Kona slots from the fast to the slow, I think it will take a couple of seasons for things to sort out.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

$600 for Kona?
Did you swim there, and then sleep on the beach?

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float , hammer , and jog

this has me thinking about driving to every race from now on. I live in the Pacific NW, so IMCdA and IMC have real appeal if I want to be able to afford to do Kona or take a vacation or something.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Perhaps we should all agree that $1200 is just TOO much for the OP and others but there is a sizable percentage of IM participants for whom it is not really that meaningful. Welcome to the capital markets and division of wealth.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

The market dictates the price. I would not be surprised to see 2 k by the end of 2013. Especially if Lance works back into the mix somehow.
Think about it. Ironman Paris, Ironman Tokyo, Ironamn Hawaii spring edition,
Oh yeah, it's coming

If everything was as simple and straightforward as it is in the classroom everything would be so much easier !

Please... No... Don't... Stop.

There's a lot of this "market will sort this out soon" talk going on all over the place and about more important things than triathlon.
It's an over simplification.
I'm a supporter of free markets all day long. But I don't want to turn this into a conversation more suited to the Lavender Room.

The "right" price to enter an Ironman depends on a lot more than getting to a number where 20% of the public does not laugh. If that's how you think a business should price it's product I wouldn't hire you to run an f'n lemonade stand.

Ironman needs to decide many things. A very important decision is for how long they want to be making a profit in the business of running triathlon for profit. Sure, there is a price point in 2012 where they will balance this "willing buyer and willing seller" University of Phoenix MBA bullshit and maximize the profit for a particular race. WTC needs to think about profit this year. Of course they do. But if they want to be still making money in the triathlon business 10 years from now they need to think about what's good for the sport of Triathlon and Triathletes, their product and customers.

Their customers' perception of value for money and their willingness to come back and buy their product again and again is a far more complex calculation than just setting the price. I'm not claiming to be smart enough to solve it for them. But, I am claiming to be smart enough to know that increasing the price until 80% of the public laughs and goes to a competitor is a great strategy to make high profit margins for a very short period of time.

Well, thanks. My doc said I wasn't getting enough condescension in my diet, so your comment should pick things up nicely. At least you recognize you are not smart enough to know the magic number at which price becomes so objectionable that customers search out substitute providers regardless of perceived value. I don't think WTC/PEP knows that answer either. In my line of business price is not even in the top ten considerations of potential clients, and I suspect it might not be in the world of destination endurance racing either (see also NYC marathon). A customer who wants a Porsche knows that Porsches are expensive, but he has decided Porsches are the best and when he can afford one he buys it. Your perception of value or mine is irrelevant to him as he does not need our permission to act. If WTC is in the business of selling Porsches (Ironman) then it is 100x more important that they maintain the perceived value than it is they shave 10-50% off the price.

If people willfully pay such high fees then let them. The triathlon tax is one of the main reasons im favoring bike racing vs tri racing nowadays.

Fair enough. You see Ironman as a luxury brand positioned in the triathlon market Porsche in the car market.
If that's the way they go I don't think it's a business that can survive for more than a few more years.

How do you reconcile the idea that Ironman is the Porsche of triathlon with the "Fanfare of the common man", Al Trautwig voice-overed images conveying the message that in Ironman anything is possible for anybody?

Just think how many athletes will pay their mortgage off early if they stop entering WTC races...

finally admit? I've never paid $1200 for an entire race trip

So for the average competitor that's just under $100/hour for the race, is this an incentive to go as slow as possible to make the most of your money?

The best thing everyone can do here is starting discussing about other non-IM branded races because they are out there and they aren't extortionately priced. Go vote with your wallet and support the less well known races or if you have the means, start your own full distance triathlon event.


It's the distance that counts not the bullshit "You're an Ironman!" and the m-dot tattoo that everyone and his Ironmother has now. Heck can we even stop calling them ironman races, I think that would help, "full-distance" or "140.6".

busso 70.3 is only $320. you do need to be a member of triathlon australia to get pre-entry but being a member also supports local clubs and covers any further race day fees. mandurah 70.3 is only $320 as well. i am not cure where you get $550 from ?

I don't think it's hard to reconcile at all. Ironman does that for the same reason that luxury brands advertise and market to populations where only a small percentage will ever purchase their product. They are saying "we are the best" so when the buyer is ready, willing & able to acquire the best, it has been identified for them. Continuing the car analogy, I think they can survive a very long time as long as they maintain their standards (BMW, Porsche) and they will go up in flames if they do not (Jaguar). Note that substitutes are already making headway (Rev3, Challenge).

At $1200 the event is still attainable for millions of people. For the event to sell out, they only need ~2500-3000 people willing to say "yes" from the millions of people interested in doing so. Their brand is now global, and NYC is an international destination. Coincidentally, my wife and I were in NY this past weekend and at our hotel it seemed like most of the visitors were either speaking a foreign language or English with a significant accent (no, not a NY accent). 1/10 of 1% of the global population is still 7 million people.

In metro NY, the Giants and Jets have at least 100,000 season ticket holders between them. I figure the average cost of a season ticket is $2,000 (SWAG), with some costing significantly more than that. Figure in the total cost of going to NFL games (parking, food, travel, etc) and it gets significantly higher. This is only to demonstrate one example where a lot of people think some experiences are worth (in terms of discretionary spending) a lot more than doing the IM and are willing to pay for the privilege.

my apologies, mandurah is 300 odd your correct. However we did busso as a team and it was around 440. As an individual it was more. How did you get $320?

No because there is no such thing as "Too much".

Economics 101 states that the marginal propensity for people to consume (and spend for products) is highly correlated to their income level. Some Italian sports cars sell for $1 MM and there is a wait list for those. Houses in Malibu sell for $25 MM and they sell after a few weeks in the market. A used Rolex Daytona watch can fetch over $25,000 and there will always be buyers for those watches.

As an economist, I see and analyze market forces that drive valuations of products, services and goods. For as long as there is a demand for something and the deman slope is positive, the price for that something will always go up. In the case of IMNY, the $1,200 was well above the equilibrium price hence it did not sell out, but that there were still registrants for it and that it could still have future registrants had the registration continued on. That price was not "too much" above equilibrium.

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No doubt that WTC is a for profit business. I looked up the registration fees for the New York marathon. $255 with a cap of 60,000 participants. $15,300,000. Dare I say a marathon has far easier logistics than an ironman distance race. I believe that the difficulty organizing the event and the resultant costs associated to make people happy and to turn a profit in NYC will make it a one time event. WTC sells smaller towns on the advantages of them running the race in those towns. There is not enough of a payoff for Jersey and New York City to care if WTC shows up or not.

Just a guess.

But they didn't. Tells me it was a risk they could'nt afford under the circumstances. Price, Value, Experience, it just didn't click on this one and they realized that after the fact. This fiasco is much worst than the Kona one, imo.
But you got to like what is happening now, with Rev3 twitts, HITS price announcement timing. Hopefully more to come.
Competition is a good thing.

Competition is indeed key in determining the price equilibrium. At the end of the day, competition by the producers for the consumers makes everything better. Producers strive make better products and services (benefits consumers) and offers these at the cheapest prices (again benefits consumers.)

Now to touch on a sensitive topic... we should also be aware that Slowtwitch.com will have a future competitor. The question is how soon?


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Really, not aware of this.
Wait, is that means that Rappstar will have to quit racing and dedicate his time to enhance the ST product so they can retain us, customers, here? lol
Also, congrats on a gutsy race.

Oh don't get me wrong. I am not aware of any Internet site that plans to compete against ST. I am speaking in theory: ST is too successful a site and it will inevitably have a competitor just like Yahoo... then Google; Apple... then Samsung; Zipp... then Hed; Shimano... then SRAM, etc.


(Thanks... :>)


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Finishing an ironman, the unfit wealthy person can then brag to the twice as fast person who cant even afford an olympic entry that they are more bad ass

How many people out there can't afford an olympic entry?

We can joke all we want about the cost of triathlon, but the real issue is that learning to swim is the real limiter to the sport, and from all my experience that tracks pretty closely with family income.

Someone recently noted that the NY marathon has 47,000 people at $200+ generating $9.4million in revenue. IMNY charged what, $1000 for less than 3000 people generating less than $3mil. Very interesting read about the NYC Marathon here
http://www.nytimes.com/...orts/21marathon.html
"Wittenberg estimated that the organization�s cost per runner �is easily more than $250.� "

I was just reading through the thread about the interview with the IMNY RD, he was threw out some numbers like hundreds of thousands for the swim platform. Then dealing with multiple ferries, over a dozen different law enforcement groups, closing the huge section of highway, and after all of that having to manage a full marathon.

My guess after reading all of this is that WTC lost a huge chunk of money on this race. And I think they expected to, and were prepared to have this as a loss-leader, with the expectation that it would be their flag-ship race. When you look at the comments the RD made he kept talking about the NY Experience (TM), how everything in NY costs more, and how people are willing to pay for that.

What it seems happened is that the race cost way more than they ever expected, while at the same time failing to provide NY Experience (TM), so why bother. Ironman is all about brand image, that's it. Just like Apple, just like BMW, just like Coke and Pepsi. And WTC has to work very carefully to protect that image, otherwise it's just a 140.6 triathlon.

$1200 very obviously isn't too much for a race for at least 3000 people each year. The problem is that at the end of the day it's going to have to provide $1200 worth of awesomeness, IMNY just couldn't pull that off, while at the same time COSTING more than $1200 per person (I assume).

As an aside, I have quite a few friends that have run the Disney marathon (and the Goofy marathon), which I think is one of the most expensive. Everyone that did it has told me how crappy the race is, that it starts in the park, and then they spend 25 miles running along access roads.

I also did an olympic race last summer that I think cost about $40, but it sucked, and they didn't offer it this year. The whole time I was out there I kept thinking, "I wish they had charged another $20 per person so this didn't suck so bad."

entry for busso is open for 48 hours if you are a member of triathlon wa. it costs $180 to join tri wa for the year and you get other benefits besides pre-entry to busso 70.3. to get into this event you do need to be a member of tri wa because it sells out for individuals before it opens to the general public. last year it sold out within hours. so you might be including the membership fee along with the entry fee ?? i join triathlon wa because it supports local clubs and i save on race day fees for other events. i know quite a few people dont race any other events so they look at the total cost as being the membership fee and the entry fee and are not happy. but it all comes down to choice. if you dont like it dont do it. triathlon wa put on a great event and it supports the sport. because it is so popular the use it to increase the funds available and increase membership. funnily enough mandurah 70.3 hasnt sold out but you can bet busso 2013 will.

Gee, not a single answer to this question!

$600 is too much for an IM race for me so I admit it by no longer entering these races. I have the money to do so, it just offends my sensibility to do so.

I want to try the expensive things you mention and I have the means but again, this is a hobby for me and I don't need it all.

It's not the $1200 in the abstract it is what you get for the $1200 that is the problem.....Improve the race and people will pay more than $1200 to do it....

Also, I am always interested to read the debate on race prices but then go to nearly any race and see the thousands of dollars people spend on the latest and greatest bike, aero helmet, wheels, nutrition, running shoes, race kits, sunglasses, etc. etc. blah blah blah.

There are many - highschool XC runners that go the blue collar job route and disappear off the face of the earth or just end up playing soccer for fun on the side. Given a year they can develop the swimming skill to be better than MOP...

There is a market for races with prices all over the map. Some can only afford cheap ones and you get what you pay for. Others have worked hard and can afford the best money can buy. This is what America is, or was, all about. I guess some now want to just take from the folks who worked hard for their money because it is not fair. :o)

So, the $1200 is not the issue, but folks bitch about USAT's 45 dollar annual fee. If IMNYC offered what customers felt was worth that or more, they would fill up the race quickly. For all the work I do for a race, really at the end of the day I have an open mind as to how much I will pay. I just ate crow paying big bucks for IMLT, so we all justify things we buy.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

And they can't scrape together the $30 for an olympic distance? In a year they can't put aside $3 per month for a race?

Think of all the time you spend training for an IM. A guy who works on Wall Street might make >$200/h. Just a week of training is costing him >$2k.

where the hell can i race an olympic for 30$??? ill even fly out there for that!!

You didn't answer the question. Care to try again?

Yes they can scape 30$. But an olympic is around 150-230$ . So now where is this 30$ race.

$1200 does seem ridiculous. When I started tri's in '09, typical IM fee was around $550 or so. Now it's double.

The bean counters read that NY Times article that said the avg triathlete disposable income was like $30K (correct me if I'm wrong)

If you're traveling, with airfare, accommodations, rental car, food, bike transport fees, etc...the race budget usually runs above $4k or more, not including the race fee.

While I don't like it, the increase in race fees seem to be in-line with the other expenses.

But it does tend to choke out the avg joe...like me.

Does $1200 seem ridiculous for an iron distance race in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho or Panama City Beach, Florida? Yes.

Does $1200 seem ridiculous for an iron distance race in and around NYC? No.

ETA: Regarding "When I started tri's in '09, typical IM fee was around $550 or so. Now it's double"....no it is not. The typical IM fee is $600-$650.
$1200 is quite the outlier.

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

synthetic wrote:

Yes they can scape 30$. But an olympic is around 150-230$ . So now where is this 30$ race.

Your original statement was " Finishing an ironman, the unfit wealthy person can then brag to the twice as fast person who cant even afford an olympic entry that they are more bad ass "

How many of these high school xc stars working their blue collar jobs with their sad sad stories can scrape together $30, but can't scrape together $150? Are you suggesting that there are no races ever that are less than $150?

As one example there is the Chisago Half Ironman in Minnesota
EVENT FEES
Until 11:59 Feb. 21:
Sprint $45 Sprint Relay(each) $30 Half $95 Half Relay(each) $45 Youth Tri $15

That's a half for a lot less than $150.

The Libety Triathlon in Minnesota has both oly and HIM for $70 and $95.


So back to YOUR original statement, how many people out there can't afford to EVER race because the ENTRY fee is too high? Feel free to move the goal posts as far as you need to.

yes, you're right, but it seems like it might be a trend setter price.

I just paid $760 for IMMT.

Not to beat a dead horse, but doesn't the $760 include currency conversion and some outrageous Canadian value added tax or something like that?

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

that was approximate $CDN cost, exact cost was $700 CD, plus the fees was $753 CD, which is around $772 US.

IMoo just sold out in record time, so I assume IMMT will sell out reasonably soon. I'm sure there are more than a few holds out wondering where IMC will end up.

Keep in mind, that each time a race sells out, there are quite a few people that pay double for the charity slots. $1200 just isn't that much for some races. At the end of the day it's an issue of valuation. Some races are inherently more valuable than others. Epic Dartmouth is still only a few hundred bucks but I just can't imagine it comparing to the crazy amount of fan support and energy at IMoo last weekend.

And the issue for this particular topic was specifically that IMNY was NOT able to be worth $1200, it lacked the awesomeness they were hoping NY would provide.

Good point on the Foundation Slots. For some races like IMWI that sell out almost immediately, there are sometimes Foundation Slots still available race week. This was the case for IMCdA and IMWI. That says that the market value of an entry is more than $650 but less than $1200. Personally, I like the Foundation Slot option (used it twice), since it provides the option of registering 4-5 months in advance instead of 12 months.