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1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread)
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I am currently 30lbs out of racing weight (5' 11" and 200lbs). I have bought the book "racing weight" and I am trying to follow as many of the ideal eating patterns as possible. I have also set a goal beginnng today to burn 1000kcal per day though exercise 6 of the 7 days per week.

I have noticed my Sunto watch and powertap are within 5% for the reported caloric expenditure at high zone 2 intensities. When my HR goes up the predicted values on my watch are lower then the measured power tap values.
Not sure what running/skiing would be like, but it is cool that the watch prediction is fairly accurate with one type of execise at the zone I spend most of my time training.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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Running in zone 13 will burn way more calories.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [nickwhite] [ In reply to ]
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I really like running in zone 5(squared) massive calories burned.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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I have noticed my Sunto watch and powertap are within 5% for the reported caloric expenditure at high zone 2 intensities. When my HR goes up the predicted values on my watch are lower then the measured power tap values.
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it is cool that the watch prediction is fairly accurate with one type of execise at the zone I spend most of my time training.

What do you mean by "predicted values" vs. "measured values?" (i.e why is your watch "predicting" while your powertap is "measuring?" Does your HR strap report to the PT head unit and not the watch? If so, on what basis is your watch predicting your HR? If the suunto is simply reading your mind then that's pretty cool.

Depending on what the watch is reading to determine your calorie expenditure running/skiing could either be pretty accurate or not accurate at all. For instance, if your suunto is doing HR-based calorie calculations then it's going to be pretty accurate. If it's simply taking a couple of parameters like age, weight, height, etc and combining that data with pace then it'll probably be fairly close in running, but will vastly overestimate calorie expenditure in skiing if it doesn't have a dedicated skiing mode. I mean, let's be honest...gravity is doing most of the work--skiing isn't really that hard when compared with running or biking until you start getting into Olympic intensity, in which case it's probably ridiculous how many calories it burns.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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predicted based on HR, weight , intensity.

Xc skiing is rather difficult, I would like to see how well you stack up to a competitive xc skier : )
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 28, 11 7:08
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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FTDA wrote:
predicted based on HR, weight , intensity.

Xc skiing is rather difficult, I would like to see how well you stack up to a competitive xc skier : )

"skiing isn't really that hard when compared with running or biking until you start getting into Olympic intensity"

I got a kick out of that too....




Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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Why do you say that the powertap is "measuring" your kcal expended? How could the PT possibly know how many kcal you've expended?

If your suunto is using HR and weight to determine kcal burned, I'd say that counts as a measurement. If your suunto is set up properly for you (i.e correct height/weight/age etc.) you're not going to get a much more accurate figure than that unless you go to a lab.

I can ski uphill in regular skis and boots without poles, my aerobic fitness is trick...I'm fairly confident I could be a competitive xc skiier. I'm pretty handy with a gun too. If I lived in a colder climate I'd probably take up biathlon instead of triathlon. That said, I don't believe you originally specified XC skiing (I was thinking you were planning on doing some downhill skiing for exercise, which wouldn't be all that effective in terms of rate of calorie expenditure).

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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I was under the impression that it measures Kjoules, which due to a mathematical quirk with typical efficiencies of humans while biking can be equated to Kcal.

I did not specify xc skiing, I apologize on being ambiguous.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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The powertap isn't any better at "measuring" than your watch is. In fact, neither "measures" your calorie expenditure in the strictest sense of the word--both take one or more input parameters (which is not calorie expenditure), do some math (which may or may not be based specifically on you and your body type and energy expenditure rates), then give you a number. I'm not sure what data you had to plug into the powertap, but if the answer is "none" then I'd take the data from the suunto over the PT any day. In fact, if the PT isn't using HR to calculate expenditure, then I'd say the data is about as useful as a poopoo flavored lollipop. A small fraction of the rider's total energy expenditure and time rate of energy expenditure (power) is accounted for by the rear wheel power, with the remaining majority spent simply venting heat through your skin to the air, heating up your internals, etc. Obviously, using some sort of "typical efficiency" figure would attempt to sort out the fractions, and extrapolate how many calories you burn overall, but I would have serious doubts about the accuracy of this method because of the extent to which the correlation between rear-wheel power output and net power output is related to your own body. What I'm trying to get at is the HR-based calculation is a lot more direct, and I would sooner use that as my "accepted value" than the PT number.

Either way, it would be more correct to say that the two numbers are within 5% of each other, rather than saying that one is predicted and the other is measured. Not trying to be a stickler, but I think it will help you in the long run to understand the distinction. Just thinking about this you probably burned 500 cal.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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leaving the semantics, I found it comforting that the two "predictions" were so close. I feel much more comfortable using my Suunto as a guide in the future to track caloric expendature.

I should have stated the predicted Kcal from the measured Kjoules~!
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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for the powertap use kj to equal calories burned
for running use cal= distance traveled (km) x your weight (kg)
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
The powertap isn't any better at "measuring" than your watch is.


You don't know what you're talking about. You do sound incredibly authoritative, which makes me think you're either very young or very idiot.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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I'm just trying to understand why the OP would trust the PT calorie data but be dubious of the suunto calorie data.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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If your not going to write peer reveiwed paper, use either. The goal is to lose weight, what you describe will work fine if you stick to it and don't fudge. Good luck

Styrrell
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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well he said he can ski uphill without poles so could probably race competitively at it, but then I thought that was one of the better ways to learn xcountry skiing, ie without poles

I am going with young to give the benefit of a doubt. we older folks will take idiot when we say such things
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
I'm just trying to understand why the OP would trust the PT calorie data but be dubious of the suunto calorie data.


the powertap data is POWER= very accurate KJ measurements

kj is roughly equal to kcal.

suunto= HR which means a very inaccurate guess.
Last edited by: SeasonsChange: Nov 28, 11 8:09
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Neither device has a mechanism for directly measuring calorie expenditure, that is a given. Both have some sort of built in model for correlating a measured input parameter to your calories burned. I'm just trying to make the point that one is bound to be better than the other because it uses a better model or the model is better calibrated using data from the user. I think it would be hard for you to make the case that a model based on rear-wheel power only (assuming the PT isn't collecting HR data) is better than one that takes into account HR, height, weight, etc., but I'm simply interested in the truth, so if you know something I don't, feel free to enlighten me.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
Neither device has a mechanism for directly measuring calorie expenditure

wrong.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
Neither device has a mechanism for directly measuring calorie expenditure, that is a given.

Wrong.

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Both have some sort of built in model for correlating a measured input parameter to your calories burned.

Wrong.


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t I'm simply interested in the truth, so if you know something I don't, feel free to enlighten me.

I am not going to do your homework for you. But hopefully you're able to use The Google.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]
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the powertap data is POWER= very accurate KJ measurements
kj is roughly equal to kcal.

Dude. If your powertap told you how many kcal you burned based only on the power you expend to turn the pedals then the value will be off by a VERY large percentage. I certainly hope you're not trying to tell me that your body doesn't burn calories generating heat, etc, and that there is no need to take this into account.

Here's the deal, without HR data, your PT has to solve the following problem to get total calorie expenditure:
Calories expended to do mechanical work over time at the rear wheel hub (about 10-15% of your body's total calorie expenditure)
+
Account for "other" calories expended by your body, in the form of heat, work done on other parts of your body (a la out of saddle sprints where you move your torso), biological processes etc. (about 85-90% of your body's total calorie expenditure)
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Net calories

My point is simply that the PT isn't some gold standard for measuring calorie expenditure because it is extrapolating the 85-90% based on the 10-15%.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Just because it puts out a number that says "calories" doesn't mean it's directly measuring that. Good God you are stupid.

Until a Suunto or PT can directly assess the heat output from your body and sum that with your mechanical work output it is NOT, AND I REPEAT, NOT measuring your calorie expenditure.

Fuck off PS, you're dumber than you think you are.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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im not sure if youre extremely narrow minded or just ignorant.

im going to just go with you not knowing physics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle#Efficiency
Last edited by: SeasonsChange: Nov 28, 11 8:29
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
Fuck off PS, you're dumber than you think you are.

We will meet one day. Have a nice day.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]
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How are you not getting this? Anything other than basically putting the human being inside a calorimeter is an indirect measurement of calorie expenditure, and requires some sort of conversion to get calories out of work done.


Read the link you sent:

For example, a manufacturer of rowing equipment shows burned calories as four times the actual mechanical work, plus 300 kcal per hour



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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.competitivecyclist.com/pdf/power_v1.pdf

you are not understanding ~1kj= ~1kcal or that HR doesnt really tell you that much.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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We won't meet ever. You are without a doubt the least useful person on ST, and if it were not for your elite triathlon squad I would have zero respect for you. I have tons of respect for what you've done with them, but other than that you do nothing but increase the overall entropy of the universe at a far greater rate than any other human being who has walked this earth.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]
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I believe Zack may is right. The assumption 1kcal = 1Kj is that an assumption. It may be based on labratory data of over 10 000 people, but when comparing it to my efficiency on any given day on the rollers it is an assumption.

I believed it to be a better assumption the the Suunto as it is based of a measured value.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
Just because it puts out a number that says "calories" doesn't mean it's directly measuring that. Good God you are stupid.

Until a Suunto or PT can directly assess the heat output from your body and sum that with your mechanical work output it is NOT, AND I REPEAT, NOT measuring your calorie expenditure.

Fuck off PS, you're dumber than you think you are.

What do you need to measure it then? A tape measure?
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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You need to go to the lavender room.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]
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The power you output in cycling is but a small fraction of the overall calorie expenditure of your body!

Human beings can put out something like 3000W of power in cycling, most of which is wasted as heat. PT has to guess at exactly how much is wasted as heat. Only a small percentage of your overall calorie expenditure is accounted for by mechanical work!

I invite you to read the following article:

Measurement of energy expenditure
James A Levine*
Mayo Clinic, Endocrine Research Unit, 5-194 Joseph, 1st Street SW, Rochester, MN 55902, USA

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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FTDA wrote:
The assumption 1kcal = 1Kj is that an assumption.

That is not the assumption. The assumption is that efficiency is 25%. That is a fairly accurate assumption.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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Nah, 1kcal=4.2kJ. That's just physics, but that's not the issue here.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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Zack, if studies have been done and a metabolic cart has been used to evaluate the average efficiency of a person while biking (with a large n) i.e measured input (Kcal) to measured output (Kj) ,would this not constitute a better parameter for prediction then what suunto has to offer?
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [KingJulian] [ In reply to ]
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A CALORIMETER!

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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I believe it may be when you look at that ratio and compare it to the assumed efficiency of a human cycling.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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Lmao, im not sure if you know what a calorimeter is
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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Trying to corellate weight loss against the outputs of a device is a tricky business. I started off at 115kg about 16 months ago and have lost 41kg so far. I have used VidaOne as a software programme to measure and set a diet over that period. Into the software I have downloaded exercise data from my polar RS400 and CS400 computers as well as data on calories burned from my pool mate pro. I effect I could reasonably accuratly predict what calories I have put into my body and in what form and what calories I have suposedly burned as a predicition based on HR from my various measuring devices.

At first I needed to adjust figures quite considerably in the software for my base metabolic rate to get a predictable weight loss prediction which matched up to reality. These figure varied up to -35% and differed between exercise metabolic rate and normal everyday activities. Once it was dialed in it was a very steady and predictable weight loss calories out equated to calories in with a deficiency to allow weight loss. All my initial exercise was cycling for the first 8 months until I had lost a good bit of weight got fitter and then switched to three disciplines.

Once I started running and swimming the predictability of my system started to be far more difficult even being able to set different training zones for my RS400 to reflect running more specificaly. I eventuly playing arond with values in the software got it back to being predictable again. I then took a break from pretty intensive training over the summer holidays and in effect my weight loss switch was turned off and again the software needed adjustment as I think my metabolic rate had reverted and without constant pressure of training I was very prone to putting on bounce back weight.

Since getting back into training 20hrs plus per week things are again starting to get more predictable after a couple of months.

I have read 'racing weight' and have been but not so much now very focused on weight loss. Without doubt being aware of what is was burning up in training did help a lot in keeping me focused on what I was eating in trying to hit the numbers. It is worth pointing out I am very autistic and so it is not in my nature to cheat and not record everything I put into my body. At first I really expected it to be an exact science and something I could more or less predict exactly when I would hit weight targets. Unfortunatly it has not been like this, as I have got fitter and have lost weight my body has gone through phases and at times simply does not give up the weight even though the numbers say it should. When I have had periods of a few weeks which have been heavily focused on new types of training eg. running more than cycling weight loss results have been very different as my body adapts.

From a personal perspective use your data to get a feel for what is happening but try and find a happy balance over an extended period, I think this will be different depending on the exercise form. Your body will do what it will do and all you can do is hopefully prod it in the right direction. As a warning over the past year there have been times where I have been guilty of trying to force my body into giving me the results I wanted, often these times have been highly counterproductive when I believe my body simply decided to horde enrgy as fat as if it were an animal about to be starved through a cold and long winter or go on a long migration. My perspective today is one of being far more respectful to myself and understanding that I ask a lot of hard questions from my body on a daily basis and as such I should treat it with care and attention.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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of course strictly speaking all measuring devices are doing this. even a thermometer is taking input, doing some math (via the lines carved onto its surface) and producing a guess =)

the power meter takes torque and rpm input and does some math to guess at power.

ZackC. wrote:
The powertap isn't any better at "measuring" than your watch is. In fact, neither "measures" your calorie expenditure in the strictest sense of the word--both take one or more input parameters (which is not calorie expenditure), do some math (which may or may not be based specifically on you and your body type and energy expenditure rates), then give you a number. I'm not sure what data you had to plug into the powertap, but if the answer is "none" then I'd take the data from the suunto over the PT any day. In fact, if the PT isn't using HR to calculate expenditure, then I'd say the data is about as useful as a poopoo flavored lollipop. A small fraction of the rider's total energy expenditure and time rate of energy expenditure (power) is accounted for by the rear wheel power, with the remaining majority spent simply venting heat through your skin to the air, heating up your internals, etc. Obviously, using some sort of "typical efficiency" figure would attempt to sort out the fractions, and extrapolate how many calories you burn overall, but I would have serious doubts about the accuracy of this method because of the extent to which the correlation between rear-wheel power output and net power output is related to your own body. What I'm trying to get at is the HR-based calculation is a lot more direct, and I would sooner use that as my "accepted value" than the PT number.

Either way, it would be more correct to say that the two numbers are within 5% of each other, rather than saying that one is predicted and the other is measured. Not trying to be a stickler, but I think it will help you in the long run to understand the distinction. Just thinking about this you probably burned 500 cal.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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It's possible, but the measured range of efficiencies during cycling is enormous. There's obviously a correlation of some sort, but it's not that great. IMO a biological marker like HR would be better than rear wheel power for predicting calorie expenditure--there's a much larger disconnect between the rear wheel power and the body than between the HR and the body. From wikipedia:

The efficiency of human muscle has been measured (in the context of rowing and cycling) at 18% to 26%.

From the study I cited above:



Heart rate monitoring
In humans, there is a significant relationship between heart
rate and energy expenditure, at least in the absence of
exercise. Heart rate monitors are portable, non-restraining
and unobtrusive and measurements can be carried out over
several days. A number of devices of varying complexity
have been used to record heart rate in free-living
subjects
37 – 45
. The conceptual limitation of this approach is
thatenergy expenditure and heartrate are notlinearly related
for an individual in part because cardiac stroke volume
changes with changing heart rate and even posture. There is
a substantial inter-individual variance for the relationships
between heart rate and energy expenditure in terms of slope,
intercept and curve characteristics. Furthermore, variance in
covariables thataffectheartrate,such as emotion,also impact
the ‘heart rate/energy expenditure’ relationship. Hence,
precision of heart rate prediction of energy expenditure is
improved where a separate regression equation is derived to
relate heart rate to energy expenditure for each individual.
Some investigators use multiple regression equations for
each subject. At best, the mean (^95% confidence limits)
error for estimating energy expenditure using heart rate
monitoring is 3 ^ 20% during light activity.

Kinematic measurements
In kinematic measurements, a subject’s movements are
quantified and these measurements are usually performed
in conjunction with other measures of energy expenditure.
These tools are used primarily to estimate the energy cost
of NEAT (‘spontaneous physical activity’).
Some techniques are specific for confined spaces such as
radar tracking and cine photography
56,57
. Other techniques
have been used in free-living individuals and generally
focus on pedometers and accelerometers of varying
sophistication. Pedometers typically detect the displacement of a subject with each stride. However, pedometers
tend to lack sensitivity because they do not quantify stride
length or total body displacement and overall, therefore,
become poor predictors of activity thermogenesis
58
.
Accelerometers detect body displacement electronically
with varying degrees of sensitivity; uniaxial accelerometers
in one axis and triaxial accelerometers in three axes.
Portable uniaxial accelerometer units have been widely
used to detect physical activity
59 – 61
. Careful evaluation
demonstrates that these instruments are not sufficiently
sensitive to quantify the physical activity of a given freeliving subject but rather they are more valuable for
comparing activity levels between groups of subjects.
Greater precision has been obtained using triaxial
accelerometers
62 – 64
. In free-living subjects, data from
these devices correlate well with the total daily energy
expenditure, measured using doubly labelled water,
divided by basal metabolic rate
65
. The utility of motion
tracking using approaches such as Global Positioning
Systems has not been fully defined for human studies.





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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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The assumption becomes 1kcal of energy utilized by cyclist = 1kjoule of work measured at rear wheel. Pardon my poor initial wording.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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I hear you, I need to spend more time on that argument than a superficial reading!
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Come on man, read the whole thread. You've got a lot of catching up to do!

People are trying to poke holes in my argument that rear wheel power isn't some gold standard for measuring calorie expenditure. They're failing miserably, but are comforted by their fallacious arguments or the notion that they are smarter than me.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]
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SeasonsChange wrote:
im not sure if youre extremely narrow minded or just ignorant.

im going to just go with you not knowing physics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle#Efficiency

That says a range of 18-26% efficiency, which I think backs up the point ZackC was trying to make.

It's not a direct measurement. It is a calculated measurement based on an assumption of your body's efficiency. Taking kJ from the PT as calories burned means you assume the body is 23.9% efficient (1/4.184). If you are actually 18% efficient and use 24% instead, you are underestimating calories by 33%. If you are actually 26% efficient you are overestimating by about 8%.

It's a better method than anything else really, but that doesn't mean it's an exact measurement.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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using Zack's reasoning, one can simply take hr and extrapolate power from it, assuming the body's efficiency stays pretty much the same. however, we all know that doesn't work well, as too many variables affect HR.


Saris(powertap) has a device now that estimates power off of HR and a power test, but they also indicate it is a guess and why that guess may be off. You can go to their website and read a bit more, but there isn't a whole lot there. Just enough to make one dangerous.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [LancsRider] [ In reply to ]
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Holy shit! A constructive response!

I was using the 1000kcal per day simply as a daily goal during the off season.

What a can of worms I opened.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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its certainly no gold standard but it is not practical to do much better =)

ZackC. wrote:
Come on man, read the whole thread. You've got a lot of catching up to do!

People are trying to poke holes in my argument that rear wheel power isn't some gold standard for measuring calorie expenditure. They're failing miserably, but are comforted by their fallacious arguments or the notion that they are smarter than me.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Quel] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you!!! Finally, there is someone on here who is willing to look past the fallacious argument that has been proposed:
A. PT measures power (kJ/s or J/s)
B. 1kj/s=4.2kcal/s
Therefore: C. Pt measures kcal/s
D. By extension, the calorie measurements made by powertap are representative of the calorie expenditure of the body.

People seemed to think I was getting hung up on points A, B, and C, which I'm not. The glaring issue with the above argument is D, and I've documented that with a peer-reviewed journal article.

Quote:
It's not a direct measurement. It is a calculated measurement based on an assumption of your body's efficiency. Taking kJ from the PT as calories burned means you assume the body is 23.9% efficient (1/4.184). If you are actually 18% efficient and use 24% instead, you are underestimating calories by 33%. If you are actually 26% efficient you are overestimating by about 8%.
It's a better method than anything else really, but that doesn't mean it's an exact measurement.

Thank you! Finally, someone figured it out!

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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The question then becomes:

Which method makes the assumption with the gretest variability and therefore potential error?


Edit: Based on the semantics focus I figured it was best to not use a often misunderstood statistics term!!!!
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 28, 11 9:00
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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Give me some credit, I replied that your reasoning was correct.
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 28, 11 8:57
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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powermeter is repeatable, HR not so much
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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Glad you did some reading between the start of the thread and now, at least you learned something today.

Of course, anyone going to Duke or UNC would have gotten it at first...

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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So Zack, would you say that my average heart rate for an hour on my trainer is a better measure of my Calorie consumption than my average wattage for that hour? I have often seen my average heart rate be more than 10 beats higher when the room is warmer than usual or the fan isn't turned up. Am I burning less calories running when my fitness is up and I run the same pace at a lower heart rate?

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
its certainly no gold standard but it is not practical to do much better =)
Right you are.
PT=<$1000
Indirect Calorimetry equipment for measuring gas exchange= ~$10,000
Direct Calorimetry equipment ~$1,000,000+

If the PT is accurate to within 10% of either the direct or the indirect cal equipment then it's totally fine (especially considering this feature is pretty trivial compared to the primary features).

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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Haha ok. Props for being a rationally-thinking human being!

This argument was ridiculous. Kudos to Seasonschange and Paulo Sousa for shutting their mouths once someone started throwing facts out there and interpreting them correctly.

If this was this bad, I can't even imagine how long it took to convince slowtwitchers of the relative unimportance of equipment weight (when compared with aerodynamics) in triathlon.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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I did not see an evolution in his opinion just clrification. Was your last post required or appropriate?
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 28, 11 9:05
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know if ZachC.'s ignorant or narrow-minded, I just think he might be having a hard time communicating his point. I think what he's trying to say is that any of these tools provide an "estimate" (granted, based on a lot of pretty good scientific principles and math and lots of other stuff way over my head) rather than an actual measurement. Kind of like using a body fat scale can give you a pretty good estimate of body fat, but the only 100% accurate measurement is an autopsy. So, I think that goes back to the OP's original question, which might be rephrased "which estimator is more dependable?"

Sorry if I'm not adding anything (and I hope I'm not just making it worse. If so - fair enough, and sorry to intervene), but I don't know why everybody gets so mad at each other about stuff like this. I think we're all more or less on the same page, but with some communication differences and some misunderstanding of some details that probably weren't what the OP was really looking for anyway.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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So back to my OP. I was thinking my Suunto was accurate enough to use the calorie prediction as an outcome measure for developing training goals during a season where I typically train in 4 different disciplines.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Travis R] [ In reply to ]
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Best sig line ever!
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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It was pretty clear he didn't know what he was talking about in the beginning, googled it and used his newly acquired knowledge to revision his position.

If you think that kind of thing is acceptable, you're entitled to that. I don't think it's acceptable for the little troll not to know anything about the subject, google it on the spot and then comeback and be extremely offensive.

So if you want to call out anyone, why don't you go call out the little troll?!

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't change my opinion/argument at all. I simply demonstrated that academia is in agreement with my argument. I give you a B- for reading comprehension skills. Oh wait, English isn't your first language? How long are you going to lean on that crutch Paulo? You seem to write fluently enough, so it's time to start taking ownership of your reading comprehension/verbal reasoning. You misunderstood what I wrote; I didn't misrepresent or misunderstand science--don't confuse the two.

I didn't "get" anything--I simply showed that I know my stuff. I'll gladly go toe to toe or frontal lobe to frontal lobe with any UNC or Duke student.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
I didn't change my opinion/argument at all. I simply demonstrated that academia is in agreement with my argument. I give you a B- for reading comprehension skills. Oh wait, English isn't your first language? How long are you going to lean on that crutch Paulo? You seem to write fluently enough, so it's time to start taking ownership of your reading comprehension/verbal reasoning. You misunderstood what I wrote; I didn't misrepresent or misunderstand science--don't confuse the two.

I didn't "get" anything--I simply showed that I know my stuff. I'll gladly go toe to toe or frontal lobe to frontal lobe with any UNC or Duke student.

Gawd you're an insufferable little troll.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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Damn, I'm a little late to the party but here's the math if anyone is interested. This is a re-post from the wattage forum, I know a lot of you don't have access to that though.
http://groups.google.com/...ies#2577eb45f24ad2ee


"joules = watts * seconds
calories = 4.184 * joules (physics/engineering calories = energy
required to raise 1 ml of water by 1 degree C)
Calories = 1000 * calories (dietary Calories = energy required to
raise 1 liter of water by 1 degree C)
GME = percentage of energy delivered through working muscles or for
cycling, energy (power) delivered to pedals and measured on PM
(typically 22-25%)
1 hour = 3600 seconds
So:
Calories = AP (watts) * hours * 3600 / 1000 * 4.184 * GME
setting GME * 4.184 = 1 (implies GME ~ 23.9%)
Calories = AP * hours * 3.6
And yes, roughly 75% of the power generated or the energy consumed
doesn't reach the pedals. "

This is why kJ roughly equals calories burned while cycling.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Hmmm. I am not sure how to respond. It is not unusual to state a position then provide information to back it up, is it? If I look back at the posts I believe he could have worked on the manner he presented his case, which tended to treat me like an idiot, however your phrasing seemed no better.

I am torn which is the lesser of two evils.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
So Zack, would you say that my average heart rate for an hour on my trainer is a better measure of my Calorie consumption than my average wattage for that hour? I have often seen my average heart rate be more than 10 beats higher when the room is warmer than usual or the fan isn't turned up.
I'd still like to believe that on an individual basis, with well-calibrated models mapping HR and rear-wheel power to calorie expenditure, that HR would be a better predictor than rear-wheel power, especially because of the reason you highlighted. Rear wheel power doesn't change with room temperature, while heart rate and heat exchange (therefore by extension net calorie expenditure) do.

Quote:
Am I burning less calories running when my fitness is up and I run the same pace at a lower heart rate?
Hmm...now that's an interesting question. I do not know the answer, but if I had to guess I'd say that yes, an athlete would burn fewer calories at a given pace if he were more conditioned than if he were less conditioned. I don't think the difference would be very large, but to your point, Garmin's HR-based software does prompt the user to self-assess fitness level (in addition to inputting height, weight, age, maxHR, etc.). I'll have to see if I can find a detailed description of the New Leaf software that newer Garmin devices use to see how it takes into account fitness.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
I'd still like to believe that on an individual basis, with well-calibrated models mapping HR and rear-wheel power to calorie expenditure, that HR would be a better predictor than rear-wheel power, especially because of the reason you highlighted. Rear wheel power doesn't change with room temperature, while heart rate and heat exchange (therefore by extension net calorie expenditure) do.

Wrong again. Need to google it a bit further.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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After all that reading you come up with that recommendation. paulo is right, you really are an idiot
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]
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Before I feel the wrath of the slowtwitch crowd, where I believe Zack was correct was in the semantics argument of "measured" vs. "predicted", I should have been more accurate in the terms I used.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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The burden of proof is on you to show where I changed my argument from beginning of the thread to the end. I invite you to try and find a single point on which I wavered or was initially wrong, or else I will ignore you. As FTDA and others pointed out, I admittedly didn't do the best job of articulating my argument, but I promise you that it's the same that it always was.

As far as doing research about the methodology, I'm all for that! It's a fascinating subject, and as an athlete I'd like to learn more about it. I think I've provided good reasons for my opinion, but would like to find evidence either for or against my opinion; I'm at a loss for finding peer-reviewed articles that determined that one was better than the other. Perhaps you could point me to one?

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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Do you believe the variables that you mentioned in your previous post which affect caloric expenditure do not affect power output as well?

I have been, and continue to be of the opinion that a power based prediction of caloric expenditure will be more accurate than a HR based prediction in the majority of cases.
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 28, 11 9:46
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
Quote:
its certainly no gold standard but it is not practical to do much better =)
Right you are.
PT=<$1000
Indirect Calorimetry equipment for measuring gas exchange= ~$10,000
Direct Calorimetry equipment ~$1,000,000+

If the PT is accurate to within 10% of either the direct or the indirect cal equipment then it's totally fine (especially considering this feature is pretty trivial compared to the primary features).

I work with several different types of Calorimeters every day and I'm still trying to figure out what you mean by "indirect cal equipment"
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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FTDA wrote:
I have been, and continue to be of the opinion that a power based prediction of caloric expenditure will be more accurate than a HR based prediction in the majority of cases.

And you are 100% correct.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Back to the OP, the two independent predictions were very close at moderate intensities, though they diverged significantly at higher intensities (the watch was low at higher intensities). Based on this I was feeling comfortable as using the caloric expenditure prediction of the watch to set daily goals.

I understand this is not a common method I was simply trying to have fun with it.
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 28, 11 9:53
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]
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My original argument, with commentary in bold:
Quote:
The powertap isn't any better at "measuring" than your watch is I think we've established this is essentially true.. In fact, neither "measures" your calorie expenditure in the strictest sense of the word--both take one or more input parameters (which is not calorie expenditure again, the only thing that can measure calorie expenditure directly is a calorimeter), do some math (which may or may not be based specifically on you and your body type and energy expenditure rates here, I address the importance of the calibration of the model), then give you a number. I'm not sure what data you had to plug into the powertap, but if the answer is "none" then I'd take the data from the suunto over the PT any day Here I admit uncertainty as to the input parameters or quality of the powertap model, as used by FTDA. Powertap very well may have a great system, but if all of the inputs aren't being taken into account then it's probably not that great.. In fact, if the PT isn't using HR to calculate expenditure, then I'd say the data is about as useful as a poopoo flavored lollipop An admittedly bold statement, but still not totally incorrect. The large range of documented muscle efficiencies makes this method inherently uncertain, and I have yet to find an article detailing how this model can be improved (i.e how to determine which muscle efficiency the PT user has at a given level of power output (it isn't the same across all levels either!!! some people are inherently more efficient than others in certain regions of power output!). A small fraction of the rider's total energy expenditure and time rate of energy expenditure (power) is accounted for by the rear wheel power, with the remaining majority spent simply venting heat through your skin to the air, heating up your internals, etc. True, and undeniable. Thermo doesn't lie. Obviously, using some sort of "typical efficiency" figure would attempt to sort out the fractions, and extrapolate how many calories you burn overall, but I would have serious doubts about the accuracy of this method because of the extent to which the correlation between rear-wheel power output and net power output is related to your own body I think I did a decent job of showing that my doubts about the method were justified. What I'm trying to get at is the HR-based calculation is a lot more direct This may not have been correct, but I have yet to find evidence to the contrary. HR-based calculations aren't bad, provided the model is tailored to the individual, and I would sooner use that as my "accepted value" than the PT number Especially after reading what I've read I would definitely still use HR based calculations over one that only took into account rear wheel power. I just don't understand how a model based on rear wheel power could take into the account the atmospheric conditions in a stationary environment. It doesn't seem obvious to me that the atmospheric conditions don't matter, but I suppose this is a possibility. It just seems that the rate of heat exchange between your body and the environment, as well as the rate of heating of your own body would be dependent on the atmospheric conditions. .

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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Man, HR is terrrrrible for calories.

Imagine this scenario.

Me and '99 Lance are going up a big hill.

His HR is 150, mine is 180. Who's burning more calories? How many calories are we burning?

See the problem here? You don't have the data points need to make any type of estimate of calories burned.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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The "metabolic cart"

a hood/canopy/mask indirect open-circuit calorimeter

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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If that is an indirect measurement then what would you consider a direct measurement that would be practical for a cyclist? or even a runner?
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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It's not perfect, or maybe even great, but with a model that is tailored to each person you can get a good approximation. Basically, HR can't/shouldn't be the only input to the model, and I've acknowledged that from the beginning.

Per the question you ask, it doesn't seem obvious who is burning more calories, because there are a lot of pieces to the puzzle that you don't include, and I think that a good HR based software could take those into account and give decently accurate numbers. When you simply boil it down to his HR is XYZ, mine is PQR, who burns more calories, you're failing to acknowledge the other factors that go into the calculation.

Weight (helps account for work done moving mass against gravity)
Height (not sure of the need here)
Age (not sure of the need here)
Max HR (I assume this serves to help assess, relatively-speaking, how hard you're working)
Some measure of fitness level--Polar did it with "OwnCal" or "Owncalc" I believe, which was supposed to be analogous to VO2 max; Garmin does it with a 1-10 scale. Not a perfect system, but I imagine that including fitness level in the model tailoring helps increase the accuracy significantly.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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My whole argument is that there's no practical direct measurement, and that, among the indirect methods like HR and cycling power (I don't think you can disagree that they're indirect), HR (with qualifications/tailoring/etc) is probably better than rear wheel power in predicting calorie expenditure that might be measured with a direct method.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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Okay.

Me: 6'6, 185lbs, 29, Moderately Fit, Max HR 201

(I'll make up lance's stats)
Lance: 5'10, 150lbs, 34, Elite, Max HR 195

We're both going up a big hill.

My HR is 180
Lance's HR is 150

I'll even add some more data points:
It's 85 degrees outside.
We're at 4500 feet.
There is a 5mph head wind.
It's a Tuesday.

How many calories are we burning?

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Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
My whole argument is that there's no practical direct measurement, and that, among the indirect methods like HR and cycling power (I don't think you can disagree that they're indirect), HR (with qualifications/tailoring/etc) is probably better than rear wheel power in predicting calorie expenditure that might be measured with a direct method.

I think that's what people are having problems with. You think HR is better than power for estimating calories burned.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
My whole argument is that there's no practical direct measurement, and that, among the indirect methods like HR and cycling power (I don't think you can disagree that they're indirect), HR (with qualifications/tailoring/etc) is probably better than rear wheel power in predicting calorie expenditure that might be measured with a direct method.

Still not getting it... It's actually funny to watch.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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If you each wore a Garmin it would sort that shit out for you! The calculation isn't as cut and dry as the cycling one because I'm sure there are some fairly complicated regression equations that map the %max HR and relative fitness aspects to calorie expenditure, based on the results of well-controlled, peer-reviewed studies, although evidence suggests that that may not be necessary.

The tailoring seems to be the important part, and if I had done the work to get that part right then I'd be selling HR watches right now instead of studying aerospace engineering.

The latter of the two articles I cite below supports the finding: "A combination of simple measurements and heart rate monitoring produces estimates of energy expenditure that are highly correlated with those obtained using full individual calibration. This simplification of the heart rate monitoring method could extend its use in ranking individuals in epidemiological studies."
The former seems to formally assess the relative importance of the tailoring/calibration of the model.


Assessment of the heart-rate method for determining energy
expenditure in man, using a whole-body calorimeter
B Y M. J. D A U N C E Y A N D W. P. T. J A M E S
M R C Dunn Calorimetry Group, A R C Institute of Animal Physiology,
Babraham, Cambridge CB2 4AT
(Received 24 July 1978 - Accepted 2 October 1978)


and

Estimating energy expenditure by heart-rate monitoring without individual calibration
[/url]
RENNIE, KIRSTEN L.; HENNINGS, SUSIE J.; MITCHELL, JO; WAREHAM, NICHOLAS J.

Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., Vol. 33, No. 6, 2001, pp. 939–945.




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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I think that's what people are having problems with. You think HR is better than power for estimating calories burned.

Right. The power method relies on knowing GME. This uncertainty seems to me a glaring issue, but others readily accept a median value and move on. In a debate about the accuracy of a method I don't think it's fair to do this. Variability there is documented at 8%, compounded with any measurement errors associated with the PT itself (+/- 5%?). I guess I would have to show that HR could do better than that, which I am working on.

GME varies with a lot of things, though, right? I would imagine that it varies with cadence, power output, ambient conditions, etc. Do you know of anyone who has measured this?

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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You need to be presenting arguments that show that HR is superior to kJ when estimating calories.


Here's another one for you, one that anyone who trains with HR can relate to.


Week1 - I ride indoors for 1 hour at 150 watts at avg HR of 140 bpm


Week2 - I ride indoors for 1 hour at 150 watts at avg HR of 150 bpm


Between these two weeks nothing has changed. Room temperature was the same, drive efficiency was the same, humidity was the same, cooling was the same my efficiency was the same.


Which one burned more calories, and if so how much?

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Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Post deleted by ZackCapets [ In reply to ]
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
Quote:
I think that's what people are having problems with. You think HR is better than power for estimating calories burned.


Right. The power method relies on knowing GME. This uncertainty seems to me a glaring issue, but others readily accept a median value and move on. In a debate about the accuracy of a method I don't think it's fair to do this. Variability there is documented at 8%, compounded with any measurement errors associated with the PT itself (+/- 5%?). I guess I would have to show that HR could do better than that, which I am working on.

GME varies with a lot of things, though, right? I would imagine that it varies with cadence, power output, ambient conditions, etc. Do you know of anyone who has measured this?


Yes, I agree with everything you said here.

GME would vary, the causes of this variation would spawn a even longer thread than this. Try posting "Which cadence is most efficient?" and watch the shit storm. I can't point to any studies that have measured this, but I've heard of ones that do.

EDIT: Cycleops says power taps are +/-1.5&

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Last edited by: Nate Pearson: Nov 28, 11 10:45
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Could your efficiency truly be the same in both examples. Something here is a dependant variable.
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 28, 11 10:45
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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If you really want to know the truth keep looking and you will get there and at the end you will agree with Paulo because he is right.
HR is not even close to be one of the best measures for energy expenditure estimation.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Hmm...well the temperature stuff relies on a delta T, so I think you have not ruled out the possibility of differences in starting/ending core/body temperature from one week to the next, so there isn't necessarily a major issue here.
Furthermore, you can't take it as a given that your cooling/efficiency were the same. Phenomena like what you described below are easily described by issues like gastric processes, which consume a non-negligible amount of energy.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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FTDA wrote:
Could your efficiency truly be the same in both examples. Something here is a dependant variable.

I don't know for sure. I think it could be though.

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Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [BrzilianTri] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
If you really want to know the truth keep looking and you will get there and at the end you will agree with Paulo because he is right.
HR is not even close to be one of the best measures for energy expenditure estimation.

I'm looking, but nobody is really working to provide evidence for the power method. People are simply poking holes in the HR method. I'm not opposed to accepting Paulo's conclusion, but I refuse to change my mind without being shown any evidence. Anyone?

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
The validity of your argument is rationally disputable. You have done nothing to prove the validity of your argument that power is a better predictor of calorie expenditure. Prove your point or leave us alone. "Proving your point" is not the same as telling me to do a Google search then patting yourself on the back as if you just proved that 2+2=4. At present you are useless (and I have seen little evidence to the contrary on other threads as well). I'm the one seeking the truth, you're the one that simply shows up to stir the pot. You and howardjd are the worst trolls on this forum.

Paulo provides some of the most useful, insightful and knowledgeable posts on this forum. Unfortunately for many, they are heavily tinged with sarcasm and often include needling of some sort. I think you should get past that. Comparing him to Jason is ridiculous.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
Quote:
If you really want to know the truth keep looking and you will get there and at the end you will agree with Paulo because he is right.
HR is not even close to be one of the best measures for energy expenditure estimation.


I'm looking, but nobody is really working to provide evidence for the power method. People are simply poking holes in the HR method. I'm not opposed to accepting Paulo's conclusion, but I refuse to change my mind without being shown any evidence. Anyone?

Check out my post about the kJ to calories math.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
useful, insightful and knowledgeable posts on this forum. Unfortunately for many, they are heavily tinged with sarcasm and often include needling of some sort.


I know neither poster, or you but this seems to be an oxymoron : ) And I am guilty as charged as well.
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 28, 11 10:57
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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Hmmmm, 1,000,000 Calories a day sounds like a lot (that would be 1,000 Kilo Calories).

At roughly 3,000 calories per pound (as I recall), that would be 333 lost pounds. None of this is doable in a day. Even trying it over a year means you would have to decrease your intake by 2740 calories a day which is likely more than you are consuming. Although once you have starved yourself to death I suppose weight loss is pretty quick.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [BCDon] [ In reply to ]
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???????????????????????


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calorie
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 28, 11 11:08
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [BCDon] [ In reply to ]
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3500 cal eq a pound
Food calories are measured in kcal
Kj eq kcal in most humans
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]
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I am learning the semantics argument in the main forum.

Your third statment is dead wrong : )
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Post deleted by ZackCapets [ In reply to ]
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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From my reading it's fairly obvious that PS and SeasonsChange agree with each other, if not overtly at least in the sense where they're both saying you're incorrect b/c of a certain issue. Also from my reading, it appears that they are saying that using a powermeter to measure calories is more accurate because of the fact that KJ (the amount of "work" measured by a powermeter, which if you had bought my powertap you'd be familiar with at this point ha) is roughly equal to kCal. So, in essence, it's not even equal to an estimation; it's a measurement of your expenditure.

I don't know enough about this subject to actually weigh in on it, but that's my take. Feel free (anyone) to tell me my "summary" is wrong.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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So explain how this one fits in your "the heart rate monitor is better for estimating Calories" view. I just finished a nice, easy even paced 8 mile run. My heart rate averaged 115bpm for the first mile and 135bpm for the last mile despite holding exactly the same pace on the same level road. Did I have a different calorie burn for the first and last mile? Does cardiac drift imply I became vastly less efficient?


Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo may be a bit of a smartass, which I usually enjoy, but he has a ton of useful information he gives out on here. You just have to accept that it might be slightly tinged in sarcasm. I'm surprised he held back and didn't call me an idiot the other day when he pointed out that I had been running my H3D backwards all season. Might have been too easy for him though :-)

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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when you talk about calories.... think more in terms of work done. walking a mile and running a 5 min mile use about the same energy expenditure.... at the end of the day you are lugging your fat ass the same distance. so the energy required is about equal no matter how you do it. there is some efficiency at some point but for the most part its all very similar in terms of energy required.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [PIGsmasher] [ In reply to ]
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There are far more variables than distanced traveled. Physiologically , the type of aerobic system used, the required energy for cooling, etc. are going to affect the calories required to produce that work. As well as the physical diferences, wind resistance etc. I think you have gone to far in the simplification. Think of the energy required for a 4000lb focus to travel 1 mile in 2 minutes and a 4000lb Veyron to do the same in 1/4 minute. Different work output, different energy requirements despite weight and distance being the same.
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 28, 11 11:37
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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Wow...this was originally a weight loss thread......

To the OP, you cant out exercise your mouth.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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FTDA wrote:
There are far more variables than distanced traveled. Physiologically , the type of aerobic system used, the required energy for cooling, etc. are going to affect the calories required to produce that work. As well as the physical diferences, wind resistance etc. I think you have gone to far in the simplification. Think of the energy required for a 4000lb focus to travel 1 mile in 2 minutes and a 4000lb Veyron to do the same in 1/4 minute. Different work output, different energy requirements despite weight and distance being the same.

Dumbass,

An electric motor is about 100% efficient, a cylinder motor is less and the human body is less that that.... Walk or run is about the same. There is only 1 energy pathway in our body... It's related to ATP
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [PIGsmasher] [ In reply to ]
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So.....what about RPE?

IG: idking90
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [PIGsmasher] [ In reply to ]
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Do you think the work to travel 1 mile by walking is the same as traveling one mile by running? I take offense to you calling me a dumbass by the way.
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 28, 11 12:07
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [IronMike] [ In reply to ]
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I will give it my best shot!
No such thing as over training, just under eating.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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Zack C. cant burn 1000kcal per day

Call of Duty
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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It is not exactly the same but it is pretty close.
It is probably more acurate to determine energy expenditure by knowing weight and distance traveled (flat or elevation gain) than knowing HR and time of exercise.

FTDA wrote:
Do you think the work to travel 1 mile by walking is the same as traveling one mile by running? I take offense to you calling me a dumbass by the way.

Tiago
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [BrzilianTri] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.runnersworld.com/...4-311-8402-0,00.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15570150


Running vs walking caloric expendature is dependant on many other variables than weight and distance travelled.
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 28, 11 12:21
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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Cardiac drift and it's effects on HR are going to throw a monkey wrench into and Cal estimates based on HR as sciguy pointed out. It's not consistent nor is it predictable.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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Have you seen any the individual data points in that study? Or in any type of data collection with metabolic cart?

Of course other variables will influence, but those two are the ones that will influence the most.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [BrzilianTri] [ In reply to ]
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No. My only exposure to the Met cart was 6 years ago in university physiology classes and I was not interested in walking!

Have you?

In what other direction are you performing "work" during running and walking? Are they equal?

http://w4.ub.uni-konstanz.de/...cle/viewFile/450/390
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/...EA97JApplPhysiol.pdf
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 28, 11 12:49
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I have. I even have published data that looking as a group it would suggest that there are large differences. But when I look at the individuals, the difference is small.

I did not say that they were equal but they are close.

For example, looking at some old data that I have on myself. For me to complete 1 mile at 2, 4, and 6 mph I would spend 121, 116, and 137 kcals.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [BrzilianTri] [ In reply to ]
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For sake of argument I will assume that your BMR = 2400Kcal = 100Kcal per hour.

You walked 4mph covering one mile so based on your BMR you would have burned 25Kcal in the 15min it took you to walk the mile (had you just stood there). Leaving you with a caloric expenditure of 91Kcal above Base to travel 1 mile at 4mph walking. (116 - 25 = 91)

To travel 1 mile running at 6mph your BMR was 16Kcal (10 minutes) so your expenditure was 121 Kcal above base. (137 - 16 = 121)

So you burned 121Kcal running above BMR, and 91Kcal walking above BMR, which is only 75% of the calories burned running. This is not an insignificant difference.

(91/121)*100= 75%
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 28, 11 13:22
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
It's not perfect, or maybe even great,

It's worse.

Quote:
Weight (helps account for work done moving mass against gravity)
Height (not sure of the need here)
Age (not sure of the need here)
Max HR (I assume this serves to help assess, relatively-speaking, how hard you're working)
Some measure of fitness level--Polar did it with "OwnCal" or "Owncalc" I believe, which was supposed to be analogous to VO2 max; Garmin does it with a 1-10 scale. Not a perfect system, but I imagine that including fitness level in the model tailoring helps increase the accuracy significantly.

So, basically you're pegging your claim to accuracy on an equation that you don't fully understand, that uses vague metrics as a base. Max HR? How are they measuring it? Any equation is basically a guess that has little or no relation to the individual. Basically it's a WAG. (Oh, and if your weight is a measure of work against gravity, does your caloric expenditure go down if you are running downhill?)

As others have said, take an individual runner. Conditions stay absolutely the same, as far as wind, weather, etc., 6 mile run on an absolutely flat course. Pace remains constant at 6:00/mile, the runner starts at 140 bpm for the first mile, and goes up by 5 bpm/mile, so the runner is at 165 bpm for mile 6. Are they really burning more calories at the end? You keep asking Paulo for proof, what's your proof for your statement other than "It feels logical"?

Go with Paulo and Nate, do some more research. You're off base here.

John



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Post deleted by ZackCapets [ In reply to ]
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Let's see how many more funny comments we can read after this:

http://sm4xih.dyndns.org/pred.of.energy.hrm.pdf
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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I think it does. Do you think it doesn't?

At the end of a run does your technique not get worse, even by the slightest amount? Does your body not operate in a less efficient metabolic regime when lactic/pyruvic acid is thrown into the mix? Does it not seem likely that you'd have to expend more energy to overcome deficiencies like this? Again, the amount of work your body does to physically move itself/do mechanical work is not unrelated to thermo issues like heating of your internals and heat transfer...

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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That study supports my side of things!

"Based on these results, we conclude that it is possible to estimate
physical activity energy expenditure from heart rate in a group of individuals with
a great deal of accuracy, after adjusting for age, gender, body mass and fitness."

I've already provided a great deal of evidence in favor of this, but I've moved on to trying to figure out whether HR is better than power for predicting energy expenditure. This I'm not so sure about.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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45 pages? I've got to go to bed in a few hours.

Well this discussion will probably be going on 'till wednesday anyway :(
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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I knew you were going to entertain us some more... ;-)
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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If I'm missing something, will you please spell it out, possibly in a PM or on here (I really don't care).

The correlation/r^2 wasn't all that great without the VO2 max data, but it's not hard to imagine that on an individual basis it may have been much better.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
I knew you were going to entertain us some more... ;-)
I can't stop reading this thread.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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Neither can I but I have work to do...that sucks really.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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Calorie expenditure is not based on heart rate. Caloric expenditure is a function of oxygen consumption.

Read Lusk and get back to us.

ETA: Which study were you so triumphantly quoting?

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Last edited by: Devlin: Nov 28, 11 14:34
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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Can you even tell me what cardiac drift is? More beats does NOT equal more energy expenditure...it can mean less stroke volume is there to maintain the same cardiac output.

Second the Keytel Et al. Study is steady state exercise for 10 and 15 min...not exactly applicable to the real world.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Never said it was "based on" only related to. If I did, I apologize for the lack of clarity, but I think I've been saying what I mean all along. All I'm saying is the two are correlated well enough that you get a good estimation of energy expenditure by measuring heart rate and taking a couple other things into account. I've linked to about 4 total studies that support this claim (don't be lazy, go back and read through the thread to find them--they're in enormous type font because I've copied and pasted the titles off the articles so they stand out), and not a single valid counterclaim has been laid against it. In fact, I have yet to find a study that actually argues against the validity of using HR in estimating energy expenditure. I've been trying to find studies that support the validity of using rear wheel power to estimate energy expenditure and can't find a single one. I can't find the article you reference, perhaps you'd care to provide the full citation, or perhaps a link?


In case you're too lazy to go back and read, here's another study in favor of my opinion.





Estimation of Energy Expenditure in Healthy Adults From the YMCA Submaximal Cycle Ergometer Test



http://ehp.sagepub.com/content/30/2/138
The online version of this article can be found at:
DOI: 10.1177/0163278707300628
Eval Health Prof 2007 30: 138
González-Gallego and Jose A. de Paz
Nuria Garatachea, Euclides Cavalcanti, David García-López, Javier



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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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Is this an act? You know, like Karl Pilkington?

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [indytri] [ In reply to ]
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I do know what CVd is. I also know it's accompanied by increased blood diversion to the skin for cooling, etc. There are huge thermodynamic implications there that seem to account for a changes in calorie expenditure.


I'll concede your point about the Keytal study, but look at one of the first studies I put up, the one that used the 24hr calorimeter study.

To the rest of Slowtwitch: I will fart in your general direction if you don't put up a study supporting the argument that power is an accurate predictor of energy expenditure within the next 20 minutes. I don't understand what is so difficult about that. Fuck many of you. Seriously. The majority of you who simply write your opinion as if it is fact are frustrating. If your opinion is so easy to defend then do so, using facts. If it's so easy to document it, then post a link, don't just give vague answers like "Google it" or "read (insert 1-word article title here)". You have 20 minutes to provide substantive evidence that overtly provides evidence in favor of your claim until I ignore this thread forever (not that that really matters to ya'll but whatever).

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Last edited by: ZackCapets: Apr 3, 13 9:23
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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how many kcals do i burn laughing my ass off at zack c? my heart rate monitor says 34kcal. zack c-your thoughts?

Call of Duty
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
Never said it was "based on" only related to. If I did, I apologize for the lack of clarity, but I think I've been saying what I mean all along. All I'm saying is the two are correlated well enough that you get a good estimation of energy expenditure by measuring heart rate and taking a couple other things into account. I've linked to about 4 total studies that support this claim (don't be lazy, go back and read through the thread to find them--they're in enormous type font because I've copied and pasted the titles off the articles so they stand out), and not a single valid counterclaim has been laid against it. In fact, I have yet to find a study that actually argues against the validity of using HR in estimating energy expenditure. I've been trying to find studies that support the validity of using rear wheel power to estimate energy expenditure and can't find a single one. I can't find the article you reference, perhaps you'd care to provide the full citation, or perhaps a link?

Estimation of Energy Expenditure in Healthy Adults From the YMCA Submaximal Cycle Ergometer Test


That is a study that correlates VO2 to HR. VO2 is the predictor, not HR. At low intensities (40-50%), it's ok, but as you get closer to maximum (i.e. higher heart rate) the difference grows. If HR is a good predictor, wouldn't it narrow?

Lusk is not an article. Graham Lusk is one of (basically the main individual) that correlated oxygen consumption to caloric expenditure in the early 1900's.

Let me ask you a question in a different way. When you see a picture of an attractive person (of whatever gender you are attracted to), various physiological responses occur, one of which is an increase in heart rate. Does that increase in HR increase your caloric burn?

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
I do know what CVd is. I also know it's accompanied by increased blood diversion to the skin for cooling, etc. There are huge thermodynamic implications there that seem to account for a changes in calorie expenditure.


I'll concede your point about the Keytal study, but look at one of the first studies I put up, the one that used the 24hr calorimeter study.

To the rest of Slowtwitch: I will fart in your general direction if you don't put up a study supporting the argument that power is an accurate predictor of energy expenditure within the next 20 minutes. I don't understand what is so difficult about that. Fuck many of you. Seriously. The majority of you who simply write your opinion as if it is fact are frustrating. If your opinion is so easy to defend then do so, using facts. If it's so easy to document it, then post a link, don't just give vague answers like "Google it" or "read (insert 1-word article title here)". You have 20 minutes to provide substantive evidence that overtly provides evidence in favor of your claim until I ignore this thread forever (not that that really matters to ya'll but whatever).

No....that is one cause of cardiac drift...that is not cardiac drift.
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Post deleted by ZackCapets [ In reply to ]
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
I do know what CVd is. I also know it's accompanied by increased blood diversion to the skin for cooling, etc. There are huge thermodynamic implications there that seem to account for a changes in calorie expenditure.


I'll concede your point about the Keytal study, but look at one of the first studies I put up, the one that used the 24hr calorimeter study.

To the rest of Slowtwitch: I will fart in your general direction if you don't put up a study supporting the argument that power is an accurate predictor of energy expenditure within the next 20 minutes. I don't understand what is so difficult about that. Fuck many of you. Seriously. The majority of you who simply write your opinion as if it is fact are frustrating. If your opinion is so easy to defend then do so, using facts. If it's so easy to document it, then post a link, don't just give vague answers like "Google it" or "read (insert 1-word article title here)". You have 20 minutes to provide substantive evidence that overtly provides evidence in favor of your claim until I ignore this thread forever (not that that really matters to ya'll but whatever).

Calm down, Howard.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [indytri] [ In reply to ]
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I said it's "accompanied by" not "is"!

CVd is the decrease in arterial pressure and stroke volume and increase in HR that occur after a mild warmup / easy exercise.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Found where Paulo got his degree from...

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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I was thinking about getting one of these to track my calories burned. Would this work? http://bodybugg.com/

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
I said it's "accompanied by" not "is"!

CVd is the decrease in arterial pressure and stroke volume and increase in HR that occur after a mild warmup / easy exercise.

The thing to remember is it doesn't just change after warm up like the textbook definition makes it sound. It can keep drifting depending on your hydration and nutritional state. A lot of the newer studies in the past 10 years have shown those two factors have a bigger role than than the shifting to the skin. In prolonged exercise this throws a pretty uncontrolled variable into the equation that you can't account for in the field.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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FTDA wrote:
For sake of argument I will assume that your BMR = 2400Kcal = 100Kcal per hour.

You walked 4mph covering one mile so based on your BMR you would have burned 25Kcal in the 15min it took you to walk the mile (had you just stood there). Leaving you with a caloric expenditure of 91Kcal above Base to travel 1 mile at 4mph walking. (116 - 25 = 91)

To travel 1 mile running at 6mph your BMR was 16Kcal (10 minutes) so your expenditure was 121 Kcal above base. (137 - 16 = 121)

So you burned 121Kcal running above BMR, and 91Kcal walking above BMR, which is only 75% of the calories burned running. This is not an insignificant difference.

(91/121)*100= 75%

This has gone ignored. I will not go away quietly after being called a Dumbass. Where are you PIGsmasher?
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [PIGsmasher] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Dumbass,

An electric motor is about 100% efficient, a cylinder motor is less and the human body is less that that.... Walk or run is about the same. There is only 1 energy pathway in our body... It's related to ATP



Still waiting. I would also like to know where you found an electric motor that has no mechanical efficiency losses from the frictions of rotating parts? That would be so fucking amazing I bet it would alter some laws of physics. I would also like for you to tell me all the various ways our body can create and utilize ATP and whether or not they are equally efficient.

Hurry up, I would like to finish my day knowing whether I am a Dumbass or not : )
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 28, 11 16:27
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
The power you output in cycling is but a small fraction of the overall calorie expenditure of your body!

Human beings can put out something like 3000W of power in cycling, most of which is wasted as heat. PT has to guess at exactly how much is wasted as heat. Only a small percentage of your overall calorie expenditure is accounted for by mechanical work!

I invite you to read the following article:

Measurement of energy expenditure
James A Levine*
Mayo Clinic, Endocrine Research Unit, 5-194 Joseph, 1st Street SW, Rochester, MN 55902, USA

I'm not sure how this article supports your position. From the article:

Quote:
The conceptual limitation of this approach is that energy expenditure and heart rate are not linearly related
for an individual in part because cardiac stroke volume changes with changing heart rate and even posture. There is
a substantial inter-individual variance for the relationships between heart rate and energy expenditure in terms of slope,
intercept and curve characteristics. Furthermore, variance in covariables that affect heart rate, such as emotion,also impact
the ‘heart rate/energy expenditure’ relationship.

The equation that posits cyclists are ~25% effective, dovetails quite nicely with the kilojoule to kilocalorie equation, and the end result is that 1 kj of work on a bicycle is roughly equivalent to 1 kcal energy burned. Is it exact? No, but it's proven and is much closer than heart rate.

I did come across a study that said HR had a linear relationship on an individual basis, when compared against calorimetry. However, each person had to be evaluated and graphed individually, and there were still wider variances in the error rate than there were with kilojoule measuring systems, which is basically what a powermeter is.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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FTDA wrote:
Quote:
Dumbass,

An electric motor is about 100% efficient, a cylinder motor is less and the human body is less that that.... Walk or run is about the same. There is only 1 energy pathway in our body... It's related to ATP


Still waiting. I would also like to know where you found an electric motor that has no mechanical efficiency losses from the frictions of rotating parts? That would be so fucking amazing I bet it would alter some laws of physics. I would also like for you to tell me all the various ways our body can create and utilize ATP and whether or not they are equally efficient.

Hurry up, I would like to finish my day knowing whether I am a Dumbass or not : )

I wondered about that 100% efficient as well. :D If you're a dumbass, I'm right there with you on that one.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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They may be greater than 90%, however it varies by type (brushed/brushless) and many other factors. There are also electrical efficiencies as well as the mechanical. The efficiency is as close to 100% as running a miles caloric expenditure is to walking a mile, similar enough for a person with no exercise science knowledge to equate them, but NOT THE SAME.
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 28, 11 16:34
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Post deleted by jaretj [ In reply to ]
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know the history of Paolo and ZackC, but clearly if Paolo has information that is relevant to this thread, he is purposefully being abstruse.

So, IMO, it just some like he is being a dick. The topic isn't one of national secrets, so if he or anyone chimes in, I don't understand the point of being so obscure in one's point or lack thereof.

I'm sure most people on this forum aren't physiologists or care to research the topic so that they can understand it as well as Paolo claims to, so if he knows it why not put it out there.

I noticed that rroof, answers questions regarding sports injuries, with clear answers. Is he getting paid to do this, doesn't seem to be. He is just being a nice guy contributing to the forum.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Devlin wrote:
Let me ask you a question in a different way. When you see a picture of an attractive person (of whatever gender you are attracted to), various physiological responses occur, one of which is an increase in heart rate. Does that increase in HR increase your caloric burn?

John

Hey!

Don't go poking holes in Captain Canada's training plan like that.


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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [JRenfro] [ In reply to ]
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That's part of the beauty of Paulo's posts/replies. It's up to the reader to realize why he/she is wrong.

Of course, it can get annoying when you can't figure it out.

It's now just become F***ing with Capets, which is hilarious.
Last edited by: James Haycraft: Nov 28, 11 16:53
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [JRenfro] [ In reply to ]
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Well duh.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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I love this place.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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One crank horsepower from an engine is one horsepower. This does not equate to the statement of 100% efficiency. Horsepower is a measure of work. Efficiency is a measure of the work output relative to the energy input. I can gaurantee to you that an electric motor is not 100% efficient.


ETA: I think you are referring to the inconsistencies in the exact definition of a 1 horse power. An electric horsepower being 746 watts, and a mechanical horsepower being 745.6 or something like that. Again this has nothing to do with mechanical efficiency, or in the case of the electric motor electrical efficiency.
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 28, 11 17:03
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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i'm waiting for someone to add some delicious red herring to this. what do you say about getting some cadence involved? say i ride at 200W, either grinding at 80rpm or spinning at 95rpm, with a HR of 140 for the former and 145 for the latter. I must not be doing as much work in the former, right?
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Duh.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo Sousa wrote:
ZackC. wrote:
The powertap isn't any better at "measuring" than your watch is.


You don't know what you're talking about. You do sound incredibly authoritative, which makes me think you're either very young or very idiot.

But didn't you read this...

"I can ski uphill in regular skis and boots without poles, my aerobic fitness is trick.."

His fitness is trick, so, he obviously knows what he's talking about.


Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
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Post deleted by jaretj [ In reply to ]
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Alaric83] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Alaric83 wrote:
Devlin wrote:
Let me ask you a question in a different way. When you see a picture of an attractive person (of whatever gender you are attracted to), various physiological responses occur, one of which is an increase in heart rate. Does that increase in HR increase your caloric burn?

John

Hey!

Don't go poking holes in Captain Canada's training plan like that.

Well played. I turn over my king, sir.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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I do not believe any one to date has mentioned thermal efficiencies? We have not gone so far as to distinguish the type of energy input, just the work output relative to input.

I have specifically mentioned electrical and mechanical efficiency, which an electric motor is not 100% efficient, IOW there are mechanical and electrical inefficiencies in an electric motor.

An electric motor definitely produces heat, a sign of less than 100% efficiency, and noise, another sign of less than 100% efficiency. The energy that is converted to heat and noise does not produce work. Unless we capture that energy through another method beyond the function of the motor.

I do not understand why he brought it up either. I also do not understand why we would want to be so inaccurate with our descriptions of the biomechanics of ambulation and the physics involved with work that we would equate walking and running a mile.

Are you unable to have a discussion? If I am wrong I would like to know. I do not want to continue on with incorrect knowledge.

ETA:
Efficiency is the measure of "usefulness" of an operation, process or machine.
Efficiency can be expressed as
ì = Wo/Wi (1)
where
ì = efficiency
Wo = work or power output

Wi = work or power input
Efficiency can be expressed as a percentage or as a per-unit decimal fraction of 1.
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 28, 11 18:25
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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FTDA wrote:
I would also like for you to tell me all the various ways our body can create and utilize ATP and whether or not they are equally efficient.

Last time i checked ATP was synthesized via the electron transport chain.... oxidative phosphorylation. to understand energy metabolism you start talking about thermodynamics, electrochemistry and equilibrium. I don't even try and own that shit. Maybe someone else can play phd for you
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Post deleted by jaretj [ In reply to ]
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [PIGsmasher] [ In reply to ]
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Not all ways of producing ATP were created equally.

You have avoided the issue of you calling me a dumbass for denying your equivication of the caloric costs of running and walking a mile. Do you still stand by this? Why or why not?
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Why gild lilies?
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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So you still disagree with me, and are claiming 100% mechanical and electrical efficiency of electric motors? That would suggest that the potential work of the electrical input is equal to the output work. No loss. This does not follow the laws of thermodynamics to say the least.

Thermal efficiency would not apply in this case.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [JenSw] [ In reply to ]
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JenSw wrote:
I was thinking about getting one of these to track my calories burned. Would this work? http://bodybugg.com/

bodymedia.com looks better
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Post deleted by jaretj [ In reply to ]
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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Holy crap-ola. Do you just live to argue on the internet? Did you ever leave the computer to have dinner or something today?
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Post deleted by jaretj [ In reply to ]
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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He said 100% efficient. I stated this was incorect due to mechanical and electrical loses. If there was a distinction to be made prior it was not done. Argue my distinction not a strawman you create.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [meuf] [ In reply to ]
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But Body Bugg is what they use on Biggest Loser. It must be right then.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [JRenfro] [ In reply to ]
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JRenfro wrote:
clearly if Paolo has information that is relevant to this thread, he is purposefully being abstruse.

So, IMO, it just some like he is being a dick.

Pretty much.

Paolo probably has as much tri knowledge as anyone else on this forum. But you learn as little from him as anyone else on this forum. He knows that and enjoys whatever his role is here. I know little and teach little, so I have little room to complain about it. But you aren't alone in noticing it, that's for sure.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [T-wrecks] [ In reply to ]
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What the fuck is wrong with you people. Seriously can nobody here write a fucking statement with out someone acting like a little prick just caught cutting class. Grow up and start making claims with some writing to back it up. If you have time to read the post that do not complain when someone replies.

This whole fucking thread turned into a pissing question with nobody offering anything of real value.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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I read your strawman reply to T-wrecks you just deleted Jaret. It is a strawman you are presenting and arguing (poorly), you should look up the definition.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [JRenfro] [ In reply to ]
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JRenfro wrote:
I don't know the history of Paolo and ZackC, but clearly if Paolo has information that is relevant to this thread, he is purposefully being abstruse.

So, IMO, it just some like he is being a dick. The topic isn't one of national secrets, so if he or anyone chimes in, I don't understand the point of being so obscure in one's point or lack thereof.

I'm sure most people on this forum aren't physiologists or care to research the topic so that they can understand it as well as Paolo claims to, so if he knows it why not put it out there.

I noticed that rroof, answers questions regarding sports injuries, with clear answers. Is he getting paid to do this, doesn't seem to be. He is just being a nice guy contributing to the forum.

Second time you come in with nothing to add, except calling me names. And *I* am the dick? Child, please...

-

The Triathlon Squad

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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I think you just wore him out and he probably went to bed.

If you are going to argue everything don't expect people to keep playing.

You are the one who got off on a tangent about electric motors and tried to put words in his mouth, I thought he was honestly trying to help you. I thought I remember him saying a few times how it didn't apply to this but you kept going on and on. I don't know why you were arguing off topic unless you were trying to draw attention away from something else. That's probably why he mentioned something about a strawman.

Here is something new to argue. The sun (Sol) is not shining on Columbus right now.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [mtbr] [ In reply to ]
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mtbr wrote:
The sun (Sol) is not shining on Columbus right now.

Nonsense. With Urban in town, it's going to be sunny everyday.

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!
Quote Reply
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [mtbr] [ In reply to ]
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Can't wait until we get to the energy source argument for the electric motor. Then the battery analogy. Then we can argue about whether or not two different batteries store IDENTICAL amounts of energy. One battery might hold 500 watt-hours and another 500.25 watt-hours.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [mtbr] [ In reply to ]
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The electrical motors was due to PIGsmashers comment, the one where I was labeled a dumbass. I am sorry for standing my ground. I did not create a strawman, a claim of 100% efficiency of an electrical motor is not true and so ambiguous that no matter what direction I took it could be misconstrued by the talent in the forum.

My position stands. No one has offered a better position to me, which would be required for any rational person to change there position. Including you. Thankyou for the info, the sun is not shinning here either.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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FTDA wrote:
leaving the semantics, I found it comforting that the two "predictions" were so close. I feel much more comfortable using my Suunto as a guide in the future to track caloric expendature.

I should have stated the predicted Kcal from the measured Kjoules~!

Unfortunately, it seems we can never leave the semantics to stay on the intended spirit of the thread. We would rather argue the semantics like children, stray wildly off course, and forget about whatever it was you wanted to talk about.

I for one understand the limitations imposed by both the HR and the power meter models and formulas. Glad to hear that they came out similar, and thanks for sharing. It allows you to have some faith they are probably reasonable numbers to measure your 1000 kcal per day against and know that you did do 1000 or real close. As Warren Buffet says "it is better to be approximately right than precisely wrong". I think a lot of people get too tied up in being precise, and don't realize they are wrong, or at best they are not actually any more right, they are just more precise.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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FTDA wrote:
No one has offered a better position to me, which would be required for any rational person to change there position

It's not "rational" to switch positions from missionary to doggy, but it is nice.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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It is rational when my "seat is to high".
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [JRenfro] [ In reply to ]
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JRenfro wrote:
I don't know the history of Paolo and ZackC, but clearly if Paolo has information that is relevant to this thread, he is purposefully being abstruse.
I think Paolo's information was simple, clear and understandable: a powermeter is better at measuring caloric expenditure than HR based algorithms.

ZackC originally wrote authoritatively that powermeters were completely useless for measuring calories burned but slowly changed his mind as he read a few documents. Once he reads a few more he'll agree with Paolo and this thread will wither away.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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I don't remember him calling you a dumbass, in fact I thought he was very civil, maybe it was in one of the posts he deleted.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [mtbr] [ In reply to ]
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PIGsmasher wrote:
FTDA wrote:
There are far more variables than distanced traveled. Physiologically , the type of aerobic system used, the required energy for cooling, etc. are going to affect the calories required to produce that work. As well as the physical diferences, wind resistance etc. I think you have gone to far in the simplification. Think of the energy required for a 4000lb focus to travel 1 mile in 2 minutes and a 4000lb Veyron to do the same in 1/4 minute. Different work output, different energy requirements despite weight and distance being the same.


Dumbass,

An electric motor is about 100% efficient, a cylinder motor is less and the human body is less that that.... Walk or run is about the same. There is only 1 energy pathway in our body... It's related to ATP

Post 106. Second post he generated towards me.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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Then why were you being so hostile to me?

Edit: Forget it I don't care, done with my shower, going to bed

Also: Urban can't do anything against Michigan :)
Last edited by: jaretj: Nov 28, 11 19:43
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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I just noticed he said ABOUT 100% efficient. How close to 100 does it have to be for it to be ABOUT 100%? 90%? 80%? 50%?

I have learned to always leave a window open with such words.

The Ordu has about the same drag as the P4 right?
Last edited by: elpete: Nov 28, 11 19:41
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Urban is going to fix the stuff that happened in Michigan :)
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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An issue with the medium I guess, and my syntax. I also felt as though I was being belittled. I may not have the experience you do with motors, I would apreaticate clarification of your position if it applies to the argument PIG was making. If not we can and should move on.

I will piock your brain later on the electrical wave properties of brushless motors later.

This roller seasion is flying by. Though I hate pausing the "walking dead" I have a good feeling they will find sophie.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [elpete] [ In reply to ]
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That is an issue with the wording of his reply. When discussing things such as accuracy in this thread I would perfer to be as close as possible. 100% is a specific number, above 90 % would have been more accurate for a greater number of cases, from my reading.

Mayb e he meant I was close to being a dumbass?
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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Not with a bang, but a whimper.

And i have to say I've learned a lot from paolo on this forum. I have a background in kinesiology, and his posts prompt me to update or refresh some of my knowledge.

You remember shit more if you learn it for yourself rather than having it spoonfed.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Devlin wrote:
And i have to say I've learned a lot from paolo on this forum.

Hopefully you will learn to spell my name right ;)

-

The Triathlon Squad

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Quote Reply
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
What do you mean a wimper????? That was an awesome ending to the first half of the season. What will happen now.

Back to breaking bad.

I remember my Kin days fondly. Continuing you education is paramount beyond the doors where you earned your degree.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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How about powercranks?
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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That's more like gelding ninnies.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [elpete] [ In reply to ]
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elpete wrote:
Can't wait until we get to the energy source argument for the electric motor. Then the battery analogy. Then we can argue about whether or not two different batteries store IDENTICAL amounts of energy. One battery might hold 500 watt-hours and another 500.25 watt-hours.

Well after some exhausting research on the topic I came up with this for the mythical power source:




---------------------------------------------------------
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. ~Gandalf
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Alaric83] [ In reply to ]
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This thread reminds me of this:


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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Alaric83] [ In reply to ]
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This topic has crossed the buttered cat event horizon.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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I am currently 30lbs out of racing weight (5' 11" and 200lbs). I have bought the book "racing weight" and I am trying to follow as many of the ideal eating patterns as possible. I have also set a goal beginnng today to burn 1000kcal per day though exercise 6 of the 7 days per week.


Why not just eat a well balanced diet and exercise 1 hour per day and forget about the numbers. You'll lose the 30 lbs., before this thread is finished.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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FTDA wrote:
I am currently 30lbs out of racing weight (5' 11" and 200lbs). I have bought the book "racing weight" and I am trying to follow as many of the ideal eating patterns as possible. I have also set a goal beginnng today to burn 1000kcal per day though exercise 6 of the 7 days per week.

I have noticed my Sunto watch and powertap are within 5% for the reported caloric expenditure at high zone 2 intensities. When my HR goes up the predicted values on my watch are lower then the measured power tap values.
Not sure what running/skiing would be like, but it is cool that the watch prediction is fairly accurate with one type of execise at the zone I spend most of my time training.

myfitnesspal Get it, live by it, love it! :)
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FJB] [ In reply to ]
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The 1000kcal a day goal was pretty much just meant to be a carrot. A goal for each day. Thats all. I still have Key workouts for running, swimming and biking, and throw in some xc skiing 2-3 times per week.

Someone said it earlier. smartest post of the thread.

You can't out train your mouth. Diet is obviously an issue.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [dbrienza] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome site. Amazing resource. I will be referring patients to this site!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Barefoot running is the only way to run! (purposely inflammatory post to drive the count up on this thread!!!)
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 29, 11 5:42
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Francois wrote:
This thread reminds me of this:


I think she confused it with largess. Pretty common mistake.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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Buy an Apex bodybugg.




ZackC. wrote:
Quote:
the powertap data is POWER= very accurate KJ measurements
kj is roughly equal to kcal.

Dude. If your powertap told you how many kcal you burned based only on the power you expend to turn the pedals then the value will be off by a VERY large percentage. I certainly hope you're not trying to tell me that your body doesn't burn calories generating heat, etc, and that there is no need to take this into account.

Here's the deal, without HR data, your PT has to solve the following problem to get total calorie expenditure:
Calories expended to do mechanical work over time at the rear wheel hub (about 10-15% of your body's total calorie expenditure)
+
Account for "other" calories expended by your body, in the form of heat, work done on other parts of your body (a la out of saddle sprints where you move your torso), biological processes etc. (about 85-90% of your body's total calorie expenditure)
_______________________
Net calories

My point is simply that the PT isn't some gold standard for measuring calorie expenditure because it is extrapolating the 85-90% based on the 10-15%.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FJB] [ In reply to ]
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FJB wrote:
I am currently 30lbs out of racing weight (5' 11" and 200lbs). I have bought the book "racing weight" and I am trying to follow as many of the ideal eating patterns as possible. I have also set a goal beginnng today to burn 1000kcal per day though exercise 6 of the 7 days per week.


Why not just eat a well balanced diet and exercise 1 hour per day and forget about the numbers. You'll lose the 30 lbs., before this thread is finished.
---

This is Slowtwitch so stop being so damned sensible or I will find you and hit you with a Bangkok phone book..I am actualy going to Phuket tomorrow so be warned..

--
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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FTDA wrote:
The 1000kcal a day goal was pretty much just meant to be a carrot. A goal for each day. Thats all. I still have Key workouts for running, swimming and biking, and throw in some xc skiing 2-3 times per week.

Someone said it earlier. smartest post of the thread.

You can't out train your mouth. Diet is obviously an issue.

If you are 5'11" and 200 lbs, do you know an (approximate) percentage of bodyfat? By going after 1000 calories a day of calorie burn you may also sacrifice muscle tissue and (potentially) bone density. Say you are at 25% BF, then you could stand to lose a few pounds, but if your LBM is already fairly high you might want to hold onto some of that weight and learn to train with the added mass and power, then diet down about 5-10 lbs for racing. Just my .02.


Part of the Slowtwitch Strength Training Association. Picking up something heavier than a bike makes me happy.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't change my mind. At all. Where do you get that idea from? Nobody posted anything substantive yesterday (although I may have missed a post or two) so I quit wasting my time on all of you, especially paulo and the other trolls/flamers that were messing with me.

__________________________

I tweet!

Last edited by: ZackCapets: Apr 3, 13 9:27
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Quel] [ In reply to ]
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Quel wrote:
JRenfro wrote:
clearly if Paolo has information that is relevant to this thread, he is purposefully being abstruse.

So, IMO, it just some like he is being a dick.


Pretty much.

Paolo probably has as much tri knowledge as anyone else on this forum. But you learn as little from him as anyone else on this forum. He knows that and enjoys whatever his role is here. I know little and teach little, so I have little room to complain about it. But you aren't alone in noticing it, that's for sure.

I'm of the opinion that he is just a dick. You can't just give vague insults to responses in every thread or just say "you're wrong, idiot" and expect people to think you actually can back up your words by saying what the supposedly correct (according to him) answer is. If he did that even once in a while, I'd probably listen more but he never does. At least I've been on this forum for quite a while and I have never seen anything resembling a response that says "you're wrong, here's the right answer".


Part of the Slowtwitch Strength Training Association. Picking up something heavier than a bike makes me happy.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ponyboy] [ In reply to ]
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Backdoor brag so sorry. When I was racing MTB I weighed 168lbs to 172lbs. I was not crazy lean but well below 10%. I could perform chinups with 45lbs plate between my legs and bench 200lbs for sets so I had no strength issue at that weight. In fact had I dropped my in season and off season weight training I would likely have done better with 10lbs less upper body mass. I wish I could get to that power to weight ratio again, my skiing would likely beneifit. Backdoor brag done, again sorry.



I am currently closer to 20% (out of my ass guess) so I can afford to lose at least 25lbs to get down to 175lbs. 1000Kcal is not an issue with my crappy diet. Though I am working on that. I just recieved a link to a great site :)
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ponyboy] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo's posts are some of the most valuable on ST, and if you take a look at many of the critique me threads - he's actually quite helpful.

The problem most people have - which leads them to believe that Paulo is an assclown - is the expectation for an answer, followed by an explanation. In my experience, paulo tends to simply answer the question at hand, and move on. No explanation given - he is not in the business of education or spoon feeding knowledge to people.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.firstbeat.net/...iture_estimation.pdf

States that conventional based estimation error can be 20-35% for generic HR based calculations. 7-10% Error in beat by beat estimation.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [elpete] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you. I have a shit load of reading (again), though I imagine you were meaning to reply to Jaret as I have not concluded, or suggested, that this method is as accurate as power based measures.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Goosedog] [ In reply to ]
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Goosedog wrote:
Francois wrote:
This thread reminds me of this:



I think she confused it with largess. Pretty common mistake.

she didn't confuse it with anything, it never happened.

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/...-quiz-question.shtml
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Topper] [ In reply to ]
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Topper wrote:
Goosedog wrote:
Francois wrote:
This thread reminds me of this:



I think she confused it with largess. Pretty common mistake.


she didn't confuse it with anything, it never happened.http://www.hoax-slayer.com/...-quiz-question.shtml


Quit screwing with the joke man.
Last edited by: Goosedog: Nov 29, 11 7:01
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Topper] [ In reply to ]
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What??? A claim on the internet that never happened!!! Oh the humanity. Makes me wonder if the claim that my FTP of 475 watts will not be believed. : (
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
I didn't change my mind. At all. Where the fuck do you fools get that idea from? Holy shit. Nobody posted anything substantive yesterday (although I may have missed a post or two) so I quit wasting my time on all of you, especially paulo and the other trolls/flamers that were messing with me.

I take it you missed the post late yesterday where I refuted you using the first study that you cited. I'm attempting to be civil and engage in discourse, but it's hard when one person has their head buried in the sand.

So far that I can see, anyone with any kinesiology background disagrees with you, the study that you cited originally refutes your argument, and your only response is "it makes sense, prove me wrong".

Tell me, does the term pounding sand down a rathole mean anything to you?

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Paulo Sousa wrote:
Devlin wrote:

And i have to say I've learned a lot from paolo on this forum.


Hopefully you will learn to spell my name right ;)

Paulo. There, the day isn't a complete loss. :D

Stoopid phone keyboard while spinning on the trainer :-/

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ZackC. wrote:
I didn't change my mind. At all. Where the fuck do you fools get that idea from? Holy shit. Nobody posted anything substantive yesterday (although I may have missed a post or two) so I quit wasting my time on all of you, especially paulo and the other trolls/flamers that were messing with me.
My apologies. So your position is still:


Quote:
In fact, if the PT isn't using HR to calculate expenditure, then I'd say the data is about as useful as a poopoo flavored lollipop.
Quote:
I think it would be hard for you to make the case that a model based on rear-wheel power only (assuming the PT isn't collecting HR data) is better than one that takes into account HR, height, weight, etc.
Quote:
Here's the deal, without HR data, your PT has to solve the following problem to get total calorie expenditure:
Calories expended to do mechanical work over time at the rear wheel hub (about 10-15% of your body's total calorie expenditure)
i.e. the body is 10 - 15% efficient

Keep reading...
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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This is what has worked well for me. I was able to get to my leanest weight in years this season, training for IMWI:
  • LoseIt!, iPhone app and website. I used it to log calories in vs calories out.
  • Calories in: I read labels, look stuff up, have a food scale, measure what I'm eating and log everything.
  • Calories out: for the bike I just use KJ from the Powertap. Close enough. For the run, I have my height, weight and age set in my Garmin 305, I log the calories burned given to me by the Garmin, close enough. For the swim, I SWAG 600-~750cal/hr based on hard I was working, close enough. I even downloaded a free pedometer app to approximate calories burned when I'm walking the dogs :-)

I recommend you configure LoseIt! to calc a calorie budget for you based on 1lb of weight loss per week. .5 is very easy. 1lb is very doable. But at 1.5-2lb/wk you really will start bumping into calorie deficits, on the edge of bonking, not recovering well after workouts issues.

I've used this method, off and on, for a couple years. When I log my meals and my exercise, I cut fat. When I don't, I don't, or at least not as much as you think I would given the training hours. More importantly, it really changes your perspective on diet and exercise.

--

--

Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
FTDA wrote:
What the fuck is wrong with you people. Seriously can nobody here write a fucking statement with out someone acting like a little prick just caught cutting class. Grow up and start making claims with some writing to back it up. If you have time to read the post that do not complain when someone replies.

This whole fucking thread turned into a pissing question with nobody offering anything of real value.

Eh? I don't follow. Before I started writing this there were 53 posts by you (just in in this thread) in 28 hours. Based on the times you did take a 9 hour overnight break from posting so at least you have some perspective, but damn, you're looking to break jackmott's average or something. I mean, if the lavender room is taken into account, you've been a busy person. 160 posts since the 20th?

I hope those statistics are the writing you are seeking when making claims.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
Paulo's posts are some of the most valuable on ST, and if you take a look at many of the critique me threads - he's actually quite helpful.


The problem most people have - which leads them to believe that Paulo is an assclown - is the expectation for an answer, followed by an explanation. In my experience, paulo tends to simply answer the question at hand, and move on. No explanation given - he is not in the business of education or spoon feeding knowledge to people.


What's mildly amusing to me is that some of the fastest, (apparently) smartest athletes on this forum agree with Paulo and understand his methodology in "answering" questions, while the rest...continue to bang their head against the wall.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [T-wrecks] [ In reply to ]
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Jealous?

Jackmott is our God.

Quite stalking me, it is a little flattering but also unnerving.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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James Haycraft wrote:
What's mildly amusing to me is that some of the fastest, (apparently) smartest athletes on this forum agree with Paulo and understand his methodology in "answering" questions, while the rest...continue to bang their head against the wall.

Don't worry, some of us slow dumbfucks think it's funny too. We just don't know why.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Goosedog] [ In reply to ]
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I certainly wasn't including myself in either of those two categories. Paulo has yet to help ME with anything (and we all know it's all about me in this world, me being the general "me") so I couldn't care less. Nonetheless, it is really funny, especially since I know the protagonist and his reputation locally (well I guess he isn't a protagonist b/c he hasn't undergone any character maturation...anyway).
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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It took me until the next day to respond to your response to me. If all your stalkers are so slow you don't have much to worry about.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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James Haycraft wrote:
Nonetheless, it is really funny, especially since I know the protagonist

Did you go ski with him?

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Hahaha no, the fitness is too ''trick'' for me. He's also a little too ''jackedasshitalready'' for my tastes. Ahhh, piss and vinegar. When I was in college I knew everything too, just that I limited it to history. So, totally useless.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [T-wrecks] [ In reply to ]
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Your procrastination worries me. Perhaps you need to work on your efficiency? You are definitely on the bottom of my "stalker priority scale"

Do you have anything to add to the Run vs walk debate, or are you just kicking tires?
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 29, 11 8:43
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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James Haycraft wrote:
Hahaha no, the fitness is too ''trick'' for me. He's also a little too ''jackedasshitalready'' for my tastes. Ahhh, piss and vinegar. When I was in college I knew everything too, just that I limited it to history. So, totally useless.

With all the wealth of experience and information he puts out there I somehow assumed he was really good. Nevermind. I beat him at 70.3 Worlds and I suck. I must remember that post count does not equal expertise. Except for jackmott of course.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Paulo Sousa wrote:
James Haycraft wrote:
Nonetheless, it is really funny, especially since I know the protagonist


Did you go ski with him?

He couldn't Zach's fitness is too trick.


Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
Quote Reply
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [sniper100] [ In reply to ]
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sniper100 wrote:
With all the wealth of experience and information he puts out there I somehow assumed he was really good. Nevermind. I beat him at 70.3 Worlds and I suck. I must remember that post count does not equal expertise. Except for jackmott of course.

In his defense he's significantly better at short course than long course. It's a pretty dramatic difference.
Quote Reply
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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James Haycraft wrote:
Hahaha no, the fitness is too ''trick'' for me. He's also a little too ''jackedasshitalready'' for my tastes. Ahhh, piss and vinegar. When I was in college I knew everything too, just that I limited it to history. So, totally useless.

Shoot. Need to read the next post. Oh well.

Knowing everything about history isn't useless, it's going to win Newt the presidency.


Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
Quote Reply
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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He would kick my ass there then. I try to stay away from anything that doesn't involve a long bike ride.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Ah...i believe I did miss your post. So, can we quantify the errors associated with each and objectively say that one is better than the other?

If so it does seem that power is better. Touche gentlemen.

When you factor in cost and versatility, I think HR is the clear winner, but PT does seem to be the best in terms of accuracy.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
James Haycraft wrote:
What's mildly amusing to me is that some of the fastest, (apparently) smartest athletes on this forum agree with Paulo and understand his methodology in "answering" questions, while the rest...continue to bang their head against the wall.

I find that sad actually. The "fastest" and "smartest" managed to somehow lord their knowledge of training/exercise over the "slowest" and "dumbest" without anyone managing to learn a single thing. This is one of the worst threads I've seen on ST all year, ruined by egos that were too busy trying to look important to help anyone out. Well done everyone.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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Is there anything to add? This idiocy derailed more than 200 posts ago. I'm just here for the ambiance.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Quel] [ In reply to ]
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Not learning something from this thread is on you. I certainly did and I don't mean it sarcastically. I would've assumed Zack was correct initially as I've always assumed HR was a good tool to estimate calories. I had never thought that a PM would be preferable, but now I know. Not that I really care about calories.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [T-wrecks] [ In reply to ]
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I hear you.
Why the hate on for me? Honestly.
I apologize that I can post quickly and am near a computer for the greater part of my day, and find this all entertaining.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
Ah...i believe I did miss your post. So, can we quantify the errors associated with each and objectively say that one is better than the other?

If so it does seem that power is better. Touche gentlemen.

When you factor in cost and versatility, I think HR is the clear winner, but PT does seem to be the best in terms of accuracy.

HR is a winner if you accept that it may be wildly inaccurate for a given individual. However, it has the advantage of being cheap and immediate, which is about the only thing the general masses care about. Something they can look at that says "Good boy, you're working out!" HR correlation can be done on an individual basis, but for a general HRM available to the masses, it's like making one size fits all underwear. PT is much more accurate, and the ergometers that they use in labs are basically bike sized powermeters (Yes, I'm being very general). But, they've been using those for many decades, and comparing it with indirect and direct calorimetry (For kinesiology purposes, direct calorimetry is measuring the heat generated by a subject, done in a closed chamber while exercising. Non-direct is a few different methods of measuring expired gases, expired water elements. HR is a noncalorimetric measurement), so the accuracy rate is much greater. The kj to kcal equation has been accepted for a long long time.

HR is just a horrible metric to use for caloric estimates.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [sniper100] [ In reply to ]
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What is my local reputation? I don't believe i've been anything but friendly with your former teammates (and every other athlete i've raced against). I race fairly and considerately, and I have fun with it. You've obviously mistaken my facetiousness for a lack of humility, a sure sign that you hardly know me.

To sniper:
2010 marked a random foray into the world of 70.3, and I got chewed up and spit out. Clearwater was just my second half, and I'm clearly a weak 70.3 racer. James rightly points out that i'm a markedly better short course athlete--the shorter the race the better--but I really have accomplished very little in my own opinion. At the same time, though, i've made sure to learn something about every one of my workouts, races, and injuries--those who know me best recognize that i'm a student of the sport. I like to think I could be much faster if I weren't plagued by injuries the way I have been, but I submit to you that speed, knowledge and experience are essentially 3 independent variables and that speed shouldn't determine how much credence you put in anyone's statements. Case in point, some very very fast guys are pretty foolish (gemmell), whereas less fast (not slow) guys often have more valuable info to share (jackmott).

And, I'm only human. I'm not infallible, and I made an error of interpretation today/yesterday and I defended it until someone did better than simply tell me my view was wrong.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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Not picking a fight man. I know how the injury thing is since most of my season this year was a wash with foot injuries. As far as the local rep comment that came from James so you'd have to ask him about that one although you might be replying to both of us in your post. I came in late to this thread and disagreed with your argument but its not a big deal. Best of luck going forward, I'll be staying clear of you on the short course events. My swim sucks comparatively. Gotta have more time on the bike to make up for it.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Devlin wrote:

HR is just a horrible metric to use

I agree 100%.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Paulo Sousa wrote:
Devlin wrote:


HR is just a horrible metric to use


I agree 100%.


BUT WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????
Quote Reply
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
a sure sign that you hardly know me

Reputations are founded on such principles. Definitely don't know you well. You're fast, smart and young and I'm sure you'll go far. It seems like you take stuff really personally. Disagreeing with you doesn't mean people think you're stupid (necessarily). Paulo was actually trying to help you in leading you in a direction that would allow you to find the right answer. Then you told him to go f*** himself and die. That I do not understand. But anyway, it's the off-season so people are restless.
Quote Reply
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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Look at me! I took Intro to Logic in college! I am all powerful with my strawman and my ad hominem and my inductive prowess!

Since when did Triathlon require so much indignant argument over things like burning calories? On any interpretation of this retarded point your 1000 kcal's burned is +/- a granny smith apple. Who actually cares?

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Goosedog] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Goosedog wrote:
Paulo Sousa wrote:
Devlin wrote:


HR is just a horrible metric to use


I agree 100%.



BUT WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????

Because

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Goosedog] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Goosedog wrote:
Paulo Sousa wrote:
Devlin wrote:


HR is just a horrible metric to use


I agree 100%.



BUT WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????

I'm a dick.

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Quote Reply
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo's first post in this thread called him an idiot. So I think you are giving him a little too much credit on this one:).
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Quel] [ In reply to ]
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Actually no, since I know Capets is very young.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Jordano] [ In reply to ]
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 I am glad to see you took intro Logic in college (entry qualifications must be low in the U.S.).

http://www.nizkor.org/...eal-to-ridicule.html
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 29, 11 10:02
Quote Reply
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Paulo Sousa wrote:
Goosedog wrote:
Paulo Sousa wrote:
Devlin wrote:


HR is just a horrible metric to use


I agree 100%.



BUT WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????


I'm a dick.

Obviously, I'm kidding. But, seriously, congratulations on the '89 FIFA World Youths. That must have been awesome.
Quote Reply
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Goosedog] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Goosedog wrote:
But, seriously, congratulations on the '89 FIFA World Youths. That must have been awesome.

Winning the Champions League in consecutive years for different clubs wasn't so bad either.

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Goosedog] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Goosedog wrote:
Paulo Sousa wrote:
Devlin wrote:


HR is just a horrible metric to use


I agree 100%.



BUT WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????

It's too variable and effected by to may outside influences. It's really a horrible metric to use for anything as a whole, but in a lot of cases it's the only information we could get outside the lab.
Quote Reply
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Paulo Sousa wrote:
Goosedog wrote:
But, seriously, congratulations on the '89 FIFA World Youths. That must have been awesome.


Winning the Champions League in consecutive years for different clubs wasn't so bad either.

No doubt.
Quote Reply
Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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I gotta say, I only care mildly about this general topic but the conversation has been fascinating and very entertaining.

I think the Lavendar room has crept into the main forum.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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pretty sure I ridiculed you and then told you your argument was unimportant (not false). Was that little bit about my intelligence a rebuttal against me and not my logic??? Hmmmm.... I'm sure there is a name for that, too bad I'm too dumb to remember it. Oh well, I will let the smarter people continue to ridicule you. Good luck with the step aerobics and Special K.

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Last edited by: Jordano: Nov 29, 11 10:39
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Jordano] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
pretty sure I ridiculed you and then told you your argument was unimportant (not false). .
I never noted any ridicule in your response, nor did I see any address about the context of my argument. Perhaps a little remedial reading class is in my future!
Quote:

Was that little bit about my intelligence a rebuttal against me and not my logic??? Hmmmm.... I'm sure there is a name for that, too bad I'm too dumb to remember it.
What logic was demonstrated in your original post that I would have attempted to ridicule?

Quote:

Oh well, I will let the smarter people continue to ridicule you. Good luck with the step aerobics and Special K

Thank you for knowing your place. I will enjoy the step aerobics and Special K immensely. Always do. I hope you have a good time training for triathlon as well.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [JenSw] [ In reply to ]
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I am afraid this place appears worse.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Reputations are founded on such principles.

True, but I'm starting to get curious though, since this definitely isn't the first time you've brought this up. I'm curious as to how I might have acquired a reputation in the local community that is even the slightest bit negative.

Quote:
It seems like you take stuff really personally.

Paulo called me an idiot. You're talking about my reputation. I'm not saying there are hard feelings (except maybe Paulo--I still don't think his contributions are as constructive as he thinks they are), and I totally had a man-child reaction to the thread yesterday, but it absolutely is personal on some level.

Quote:
Paulo was actually trying to help you in leading you in a direction that would allow you to find the right answer.

Along the same lines as above, I don't think Paulo is as helpful as he thinks he is. In some ways Paulo may be the smartest one here for hardly getting involved, or for not actually articulating his point of view, instead replying with monosyllabic answers and pejorative remarks, thereby avoiding the issue of having his own opinions and sources torn apart.
Paulo's first response was
"You don't know what you're talking about. You do sound incredibly authoritative, which makes me think you're either very young or very idiot. "
followed by:
"Wrong."
"Wrong."
"I am not going to do your homework for you. But hopefully you're able to use The Google. "
I suppose I should know to expect that level of uselessness from him. If all he's going to do is show up and say "yes" or "no" then why even bother. I can't even begin to understand the motivations of someone who has enough of a desire to help out that they post, but not enough that they're willing to post something substantive even when prompted many, many times. I don't believe in spoon-feeding people information either, but there's a difference between A) Being intentionally obtuse, B) sending someone a link and letting them drawing their own conclusions, and C) posting a link and writing out the spoiler right there as well. I spent a good 2-3 hours researching this yesterday using my school's journal database, and I couldn't find anything supporting Paulo's argument. I think anyone who truly claimed to care about helping someone learn would step in at that point at least and help out. I certainly don't think Paulo owes it to me to help, but if he's going to fuck with me then he at least has to expect that I'll get pissed at him when he serves no useful purpose to me. It's also worth noting that I was getting pissed at Paulo's little troll minion Seasonschange as well, but was mostly just replying with double the frustration to PS.

That said, I still have yet to see A SINGLE article supporting the use of power-based measurements. Unless I missed something, I believe all anyone could do was refute the HR argument--nobody could prove the validity of the power argument (except for one post that mentioned off-handedly that one of the studies happened to use the 25% efficiency figure in an equation somewhere). That's a non-trivial thing, and has yet to be substantiated. That frustrates me on a lot of levels. I think if the tables were turned, and there were 10 or so people trying to pick apart the power meter calorie measurement method it wouldn't be that difficult to find a hole here or there.

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Last edited by: ZackCapets: Apr 3, 13 9:34
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ZackC. wrote:
That said, I still have yet to see A SINGLE article supporting the use of power-based measurements. Unless I missed something, I believe all anyone could do was refute the HR argument--nobody could prove the validity of the power argument (except for one post that mentioned off-handedly that one of the studies happened to use the 25% efficiency figure in an equation somewhere). That's a non-trivial thing, and has yet to be substantiated. That frustrates me on a lot of levels. I think if the tables were turned, and there were 10 or so people trying to pick apart the power meter calorie measurement method it wouldn't be that difficult to find a hole here or there.

You won't see specific "power" based studies like you're thinking of. Why would they spend the money to do studies with the powermeter when they use full cycles built specifically for this kind of testing?

Do a search for "cycle ergometry studies" to find what you are looking for.

And as much as it might sting, Paulo's assessments were correct. Either you are young and not developed much in critical thinking and assessment, or you stubbornly cling to a belief when several people attempt to point out why it is an erroneous belief. Your adherence to the HR stance simply prompted more "wrong" responses, since it was, well, wrong.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure there has to be an article, does there? The FACT that 1KJ = 1Kcal should be evidence enough to talk calories expended. Maybe I'm wrong, I dunno.

Here's a snippet from a ride I did last January. It was a ~4hr group ride, which turn into bike races sometimes.

Entire workout (153 watts):
Duration: 3:50:01 (4:12:11)
Work: 2093 kJ
TSS: 211.6 (intensity factor 0.756)
Norm Power: 223
VI: 1.46
Pw:HR: n/a
Pa:HR: n/a
Distance: 66.997 mi
Elevation Gain: 2116 ft
Elevation Loss: 2128 ft
Grade: -0.0 % (-12 ft)
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 1252 153 watts
Cadence: 30 246 83 rpm
Speed: 0 39.7 17.2 mph
Pace 1:31 0:00 3:29 min/mi
Altitude: 570 852 693 ft
Crank Torque: 0 1259 163 lb-in

ETA: I really wish (but only for the sake of this comparison) that I used a HR monitor b/c garmin connect estimates calories expended using that so it'd be interesting to compare the Powertap's WKO+ KJ/kcal with the Garmin's HR "calories."


I've "bolded" the important part. So I'm assuming that I burned appx 2093 kcals on this ride. Don't worry about being on edge, it's the off-season. Everyone is on edge in some way.
Last edited by: James Haycraft: Nov 29, 11 12:56
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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I posted the math before. Are you looking for an article that shows the range of cycling efficiency in riders?


It's pretty easy, you measure the output through a power meter, then from there you can estimate the calories burned by estimating the riders efficiency.


The efficiency that most people use is around 23-24% for trained cyclists, although I don't have a study to back that claim up that the majority of trained cyclists have that efficiency. Maybe that's what you're looking for?





CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
Are you looking for an article that shows the range of cycling efficiency in riders?

That's exactly what I'm looking for!

I understand how the system works. Your calories burned are proportional to your efficiency and rear wheel power (with appropriate conversion factors applied). That part I don't think anyone can disagree with, and I certainly never have. I've only taken issue with the lack of evidence proving the range of efficiencies that everyone keeps quoting. Thanks to Devlin, I looked for cycling ergometry + efficiency and had much better luck. Thank you! Have a look at this one:
Efficiency in cycling: a review
Gertjan Ettema1 and Håvard Wuttudal Lorås1
[/url](1) Human Movement Science Programme, Faculty of Social Sciences and Technology Management, Norwegian University of Science and Technology, 7941 Trondheim, Norway


The executive summary is that the r^2 for the best fit line representing the data points connecting metabolic work rate and external power looks a lot better than that connecting GME and external power.

Figure 2a shows the data according to cadence. Even though most studies report a clear negative effect of cadence on gross efficiency, the overall picture shows a minimal effect. The inter-study variation is much larger than any visible trend, and some studies show the opposite (positive) effect or an inverted u-shape with an optimal cadence. The inter-study variation may easily be thought to be caused by methodological differences. However, when plotting the same pool of data against external power, a different picture is shown. A very consistent relationship between work rate and efficiency is found. This relationship is even more clearly demonstrated by plotting the metabolic rate against work rate (Fig. 2c). A linear relationship is found, which is not unexpected but merely reflecting what various studies have reported explicitly (e.g., Anton-Kuchly et al. 1984; Bijker et al. 2001, 2002; Chavarren and Calbet 1999; Coast and Welch 1985; Francescato et al. 1995; Gaesser and Brooks 1975; Hintzy-Cloutier et al. 2003; McDaniel et al. 2002; Moseley et al.2004; Widrick et al. 1992). As stated before, the curved work rate–gross efficiency relationship is a consequence of the offset (y-intercept) of the work rate–metabolic rate relationship. Note, that this offset does not, per sé, indicate any fixed baseline energy cost that, physiologically, is independent of work rate. The rather surprising aspect of the result is the high consistency between the various studies regarding the work rate–metabolic rate relationship, where it seems to be lacking as a function of cadence. Although one should be cautious with the interpretation of correlations here, that between metabolic rate and external power amounts to 0.97 (n = 93, p < 0.0001; 26 studies, 29 conditions/subject groups, meaning that 94% of the variation among all (mean) energy expenditure values for all these situations is explained by absolute work rate. This outcome is only slightly more ambivalent when separate data for all different cadences at the same power output were entered (in 9 studies), as shown in Fig. 2e. Also when converting the data to work rate-efficiency curves, only small differences with the original calculations occur (Fig. 2f), with the correlation being reduced to 0.95 (r 2 = 0.91). In other words, factors other than work rate, including cadence, explain less then 10% of the variation in energy expenditure. Adding cadence as a dependent factor, the explained variance is increased to 94% (cadence explains about 10% on its own). These findings, both correlation values as well as the absolute cost-work rate relationship, agree well with McDaniel et al. (2002) (redrawn in grey in Fig. 2c, but not included in the analysis), who looked at cadence, work rate and movement speed (by altering crank length). In their study, 95% of all variation in metabolic cost, including all experimental conditions, was explained by work rate. In the present data pool, cadence and power are correlated to some extent (r = 0.171, p < 0.019; Fig. 3a), which complicates the interpretation somewhat as these two factors share some of their variance. Still, both factors seem reasonably evenly spread over all data considered in this overview (Fig. 3a). Therefore, it is unlikely that this correlation between work rate and cadence has a strong effect on the findings. Interestingly, the intercept of the two-dimensional regression at zero work rate and zero cadence (Fig. 3b), which would be the theoretical value for energy expenditure while sitting still on a bicycle, reaches a value of 40 W (not statistically significant from zero). This value is too low, but still physically possible, despite the rather large extrapolation range from the experimental data. Overall, it seems that the very original findings by Fenn (1924) on isolated muscle also apply to the entire human body in cycling in a very consistent manner.

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Lucia et al. (2002) reported rather high gross efficiency values for some top cyclists. The average for the group amounted to 24.5% (with a peak individual value at 28.1%). Jeukendrup et al. (2003) argued that these results were extremely high from a theoretical point-of-view and must have been affected by errors in the measurements (see also below, next section). They furthermore concluded that if these data were correct, “some interesting physiological adaptations may exist…”. Coyle (2005) reported an increase in efficiency over a period of 7 years of training and competing in one of the most outstanding cyclists of modern times from about 21–23%. Coyle proposed that biochemical adaptations may have caused this improvement (i.e., a greater contribution from aerobically-efficient type I fibres). When considering these data and their placement within the data derived from the literature (Fig. 2b, c; data enclosed in a grey square; only overall average is shown for both studies), these values do not seem extraordinary, although Lucia et al. (2002) appear to show a slightly high efficiency value. This is supported by values from Sallet et al. (2006) on elite and professional riders who score even higher efficiencies at powers above 400 W (data most to the left in Fig. 2b, c). The main reason why gross efficiency is relatively high is likely because of the high work rate. Also the improvement in efficiency reported by Coyle (2005) may be explained by an increased power at which these values were determined. Nevertheless, the studies by Sallet et al. (2006) and Lucia et al. (2002) show metabolic rates below the regression line in Fig. 2c, which may indicate either measurement error or, indeed, some physiological changes that enhance efficiency above the increase that is directly linked to that for the work rate. It is interesting to note that the same group (Lucia et al. 2004) report a lower efficiency is reported (23.4 vs. 24.5%) at a slightly lower power (366 vs. 385 W).

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Irrespective of definitions and concepts, a framework for the accuracy of efficiency measurements can be established. It seems reasonable to allow for a 5% error in biological measurements with regard to studies on cycling efficiency. Figure 2d shows the ranges of efficiency calculations that arise from 5% error in both metabolic rate and external power going in opposite directions. The vertical bar shows the range near 300 W if only one of these measures has that same error. Only one data point falls clearly outside the range of 5% error (filled circle). This is the result from Luhtanen et al. (1987) at the highest work rate, which was, as mentioned earlier, well above the lactate threshold and thus bound to result in a lower efficiency. Thus, the difference between studies may be partly explained by differences in (systematic) errors. This merely strengthens the notion that cycling is an extremely consistent exercise model with regard to the relationship between metabolic rate and external power. Thus, the situation presented in Fig. 2c may constitute a very solid framework for the interpretation of past, present and future
studies.




**Edit to add figures**

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Last edited by: ZackC.: Nov 29, 11 13:12
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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James Haycraft wrote:
I'm not sure there has to be an article, does there? The FACT that 1KJ = 1Kcal should be evidence enough to talk calories expended. Maybe I'm wrong, I dunno.
Yes, you're wrong. The 1kJ to Cal conversion is a conservative approximation assuming about a 24% efficiency which is at the high end of measured efficiency for athletes. If you happened to be 20% efficient you would have burned 2500 Cals instead of the 2093 you assumed.

If you're trying to lose weight it's better to underestimate caloric expenditures, so most people assume the 24% efficiency which leads to 1kJ of work equating to 1 Cal burned.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
Quote:
Are you looking for an article that shows the range of cycling efficiency in riders?

That's exactly what I'm looking for!

Well good :) I'm sure there have been some studies that have shown that. Can someone use the google and find them? Then we can end this thread.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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See my above post.

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I tweet!

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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You're going to have to go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back to find the studies on human and mechanical work. I wanna way most of that stuff was done in the , 20s, 30s and 40s. Wanna look for work by guys like A.V. Hill.

All of the work on bikes will have been done on Ergometers...Monarchs were/are the most popular type, even in the 90s were where using rpms on a loaded flywheel to calculate the workloads, so we won't find really SRM, or that type of thing being used till very recently, and even then you'll still see it done the old way most of the time.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Nate Pearson wrote:
ZackC. wrote:
Quote:
Are you looking for an article that shows the range of cycling efficiency in riders?

That's exactly what I'm looking for!


Well good :) I'm sure there have been some studies that have shown that. Can someone use the google and find them? Then we can end this thread.

The study he cited gives him all he needs to know in this one sentence (Near the end of text)

Quote:
This merely strengthens the notion that cycling is an extremely consistent exercise model with regard to the relationship between metabolic rate and external power.

John




Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Would it be possible to wrap this thread up - it's no longer entertaining.

Thanks!
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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Predictable considering I was trying to talk about a subject of which I know nothing.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
Would it be possible to wrap this thread up - it's no longer entertaining.

Thanks!

Of course it's not entertaining, now it's actually becoming educational.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
Paulo called me an idiot.

No, I gave you a choice between young vs. idiot. It seems you picked idiot, I cannot be responsible for your choices.


Quote:
I still don't think his contributions are as constructive as he thinks they are

I understand some of the disconnect now. My contributions are not meant to be constructive and again, it is your choice to try to see them as such.

-

The Triathlon Squad

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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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I am going to have to start a new thread if the real issue is not addressed here:

Is walking one mile and running one mile equal in the required caloric expenditure?
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 29, 11 14:13
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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FTDA wrote:
I am going to have to start a new thread if the real issue is not addressed here:

Is walking one mile and running one mile equal in the required caloric expenditure?

Read this, I think it will help.

http://www.runnersworld.com/...4-311-8402-0,00.html

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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i actually linked that article here previously. I stated they were not equal, gave a few reasons why, and was promptly called a dumbass. Only on slowtwitch.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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Studies I've seen have gone both ways....depends on your weight and velocity....heavier you are makes running the greater of the two....walking at really high speeds burns more since it's not a very efficient motion.......
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [FTDA] [ In reply to ]
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FTDA wrote:
i actually linked that article here previously. I stated they were not equal, gave a few reasons why, and was promptly called a dumbass. Only on slowtwitch.


Sorry about that. For some reason the link from your post never opened for me.
You posted http://www.runnersworld.com/...4-311-8402-0,00.html

This one works http://www.runnersworld.com/...4-311-8402-0,00.html
If it's the same one I've posted then it looks like good "stuff".

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Last edited by: sciguy: Nov 29, 11 14:50
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [indytri] [ In reply to ]
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Which demonstrates the point I made earlier, there is work going on in more than the horizontal plane, as well as biomechanical efficiencies. Thank you for your input.
Last edited by: FTDA: Nov 29, 11 16:31
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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I never noticed thank you for reposting it.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Nate Pearson wrote:
Week1 - I ride indoors for 1 hour at 150 watts at avg HR of 140 bpm


Week2 - I ride indoors for 1 hour at 150 watts at avg HR of 150 bpm


Between these two weeks nothing has changed.

In week 2, HR is 10 beats higher.
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [mrwoodhouse] [ In reply to ]
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mrwoodhouse wrote:
Nate Pearson wrote:

Week1 - I ride indoors for 1 hour at 150 watts at avg HR of 140 bpm


Week2 - I ride indoors for 1 hour at 150 watts at avg HR of 150 bpm


Between these two weeks nothing has changed.


In week 2, HR is 10 beats higher.

hehe, thanks :).

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: 1000 Kcal per day (weight loss thread) [Ultra-tri-guy] [ In reply to ]
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This is Slowtwitch so stop being so damned sensible or I will find you and hit you with a Bangkok phone book..I am actualy going to Phuket tomorrow so be warned..


I'll be in Manila for about 10 days later this week and then back to Canada. My bike is in storage in Bangkok and we'll be reunited in January as I continue heading south to Malyasia and Indonesia before turning north back up through SE Asia and China. My next goal is Nepal, just have to figure out how to get through Tibet....

Will you be in SE Asia in 2012?
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